Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?
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A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, (Revelation 1:1) Who gave Jesus Christ this Revelation?
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
Here is the 400th year anniversary of the King James Bible. If you look up the Greek or Hebrew scripture you will see reference scriptures and more than often are quotes from the Old Testament... Jesus quoted scripture that had His Father's Name in them... Why not you??
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
You can also see how the scriptures were watered down over time and even removing God out of them like (Rev 1:8) Yep.. even God was removed from (Rev 1:8) Now who would do that? Can you think of anyone???
Here's the Greek Testament of (Rev 1:8) Do you see the (ho theos) that means the God was Removed? What so interesting is that they removed God to make Jesus look like God. Now, if they would have added the Name of Jesus in there... then that would be very difficult to overcome.
Post edited by Brother Rando on -
Here's the Greek Testament of (Rev 1:8) Do you see the (ho theos) that means the God, which was Removed in latter reversions? What so interesting is that they removed God to make Jesus look like God. Now, if they would have added the Name of Jesus in there... then that would be very difficult to overcome.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
Translators not only removed God's Name but also removed GOD from latter revisions. Replacing it with LORD because that's what they did.... and that deception did not go far enough so they took LORD and made it into a little Lord ... (Rev 1:8)
Trinitarians tried to mimic the theology of the nameless trinity generic formula. Names were not to be added but rather a removal of them. The removal of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ was under attack. That attack continues today. (Rev 1:8) at one time did have a Name in it but can you guess whose it was?
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith Jehovah God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Switched to:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Switched to:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Switched to:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
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You yourself said it.. Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6 ASV)
In the Bible, God says: “I am Jehovah. That is my name.” (Isaiah 42:8)
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Much better.
Jehovah is the First and Last God, Christ is his first and His last Savior.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Who is "the first and the last" ?
@BroRando You yourself said it.. Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6 ASV)
@BroRando In the Bible, God says: “I am Jehovah. That is my name.” (Isaiah 42:8)
@theMadJW Jehovah is the First and Last God, Christ is his first and His last Savior.
Puzzling qualification of "the First and the Last" does not match Biblical usage, especially the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (Revelation 22:13 ASV)
Revelation 22:13 has three phrases (plural) expressing the same idea (one). Greek alphabet begins with Alpha and ends with Omega.
@theMadJW Too much bah-blah.
Every person chooses what to really, really, really Love ❤️ most, which shows in actions & word expression choices. Honestly, your reply reflects your current belief:
@theMadJW God is NO WAY was represented as 'Three-in-One' (no reference to "Them", only "He").
is really, really, really more important to you that what Holy God's inspired words in Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek simply declare.
Thankful for my research about @BroRando claims of Jesus "I AM" on 2 June 2021. Posted my Bible study results on 3 June 2021 (followed by @theMadJW "Too much bah-blah", which is a way for @theMadJW to maintain personal belief by dismissing truthful Bible text counterpoint). Found Greek words spoken by Jesus for emphatic self dentification "I AM" are the same as 65 Greek translations of "I Jehovah" (from Hebrew into Greek by Jewish scholars). Greek word ἐγώ and Hebrew word אֲנִ֥י are first person singular pronouns: "I". Greek verb εἰμί can be translated "I am" (form of the verb "to be" with first person singular spelling). Literally, ἐγώ εἰμί (egō eimi) is "I I am" so the "I" self identification is emphatic.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Likewise wonder what is your Bible text support about the Angel in Acts 27:23 being Jesus ?
@BroRando Who was the person that recruited Saul? Who is the light of the world that lights it up because of his glory??
@BroRando "But as I was traveling and getting near to Damascus, about midday, suddenly out of heaven a great light flashed all around me, and I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me: ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ I answered: ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me: ‘I am Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ, whom you are persecuting.’ (Acts 22:6-8)
Saul asked ‘Who are you, Lord (יהוה) ?' that was answered: "I AM Jesus ..." (same Greek words as 65 Jewish translations of "I JEHOVAH" => "I AM")
Puzzled by lack of replies to non-trinitarian @Bill_Coley (we disagree about Jehovah & Jesus being One יהוה Lord God) who posted on June 2
@BroRando posted:
Who was the person that recruited Saul? Who is the light of the world that lights it up because of his glory??
"But as I was traveling and getting near to Damascus, about midday, suddenly out of heaven a great light flashed all around me, and I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me: ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ I answered: ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me: ‘I am Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ, whom you are persecuting.’ (Acts 22:6-8)
"After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory." (Rev 18:1)
@Bill_Coley In my view, your exegesis of these two passages is misguided:
- None of the three accounts of Saul's Damascus road encounter with Jesus found in Acts (Acts 9.1-19; Acts 22.3-16; Acts 26.9-18) reports that Jesus was an angel.
- The angel who speaks in Revelation 18 is specifically identified as "another angel" - "another" angel in a series of them that speak throughout the book (e.g. Revelation 5.2, 7.3, 9.14, 10.6-7, 10.9, 14.7, 14.9, 14.15, 14.18, 16.5, 16.17, 17.1, 18.1, 18.21, 19.9, 19.17, 22.6). Had John thought said angel was Jesus - which, of course, would have distinguished that angel from all the others - he would have told us so.
- And there is STILL the matter of the other passages on this subject matter that I raised to your attention in another thread yesterday, on only one of which you have offered even passing comments:
In Galatians 4.14, Paul makes a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels (emphasis added):
"But even though my condition tempted you to reject me, you did not despise me or turn me away. No, you took me in and cared for me as though I were an angel from God or even Christ Jesus himself."
The writer of Hebrews makes a similar distinction in Hebrews 1.5 (emphasis added):
5 For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father.”
And finally, John the Revelator quotes Jesus as referring to an angel under his direction, suggesting that Jesus commands angels, but isn't one himself (emphasis added):
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star.” [EDIT: THIS VERSE IS REVELATION 22.16]
@Bill_Coley In my view, you have yet to show any textual support for your view that Jesus was the angel referenced in Acts 27.23. Acts 27 doesn't say he was. No other NT verse says he was an angel. And at least one verse explicitly says he wasn't one.
@BroRando Here is the 400th year anniversary of the King James Bible. If you look up the Greek or Hebrew scripture you will see reference scriptures and more than often are quotes from the Old Testament... Jesus quoted scripture that had His Father's Name in them... Why not you??
Not know who you intended this reply for. Thankful for Philippians 2:5-11 => Thankful to be on my knees worshipping God & saying: Jesus Christ is Lord (יהוה), κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς, Yehoshua HaMashiach Adonai (Hebrew words) 🙏❤️😍 Thankful can worship Unique Holy יהוה God by thinking about correct pronunciation of יהוה (different than Jehovah, which combined Adonai vowel sounds with יהוה)
Learning to read Greek provides new meaning for phrase: "That's Greek to me" as now can read parts of the Greek New Testament while other parts are Greek to me. Thankful for doing my own translation of Jude from Greek to English. Thankful for a printed anayltical Greek lexicon so looked up Greek spelling with parsing identification. First step was literal grammatical usage with word meaning => stilted literal translation. The only "Greek" item in @BroRando replies on 3 Jun 2021 is the word "Greek" (so honestly lacks credibility about Greek language understanding).
@BroRando Translators not only removed God's Name but also removed GOD from latter revisions. Replacing it with LORD because that's what they did.... and that deception did not go far enough so they took LORD and made it into a little Lord ... (Rev 1:8)
@BroRando I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith Jehovah God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
@BroRando Switched to:
@BroRando I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
@BroRando Switched to:
@BroRando I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
@BroRando Switched to:
@BroRando I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
What are your sources ? Noticeably missing from your sequence is English translation name and year published. Note: my Logos Bible Software library has 341 English Bibles (personally have customized titles to add year published prefix). Not know when LORD printing in Bibles began.
Ȝhe, Amen. I am alpha and oo, the bigynnyng and endyng, seith the Lord God, that is, and that was, and that is to comynge, almiȝty. (1382 Wycliffe) Olde English has letter variations that had disappeared from public use long before digitization.
I am Alpha and Omega/the beginnynge & the endynge/sayth the Lorde almyghty/which is & which was & which is to come. (1536 Tyndale NT)
εγω ειμι το α και το ω αρχη και τελος λεγει ο κυριος ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος ο παντοκρατωρ (1550 Stephen's Textus Receptus) does not have ho theos
I am α and ω, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come, even the Almightie. (1560 Geneva Bible has Alpha and Omega letters with note: Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the a b c. of the Grekes.)
I am Alpha and Omega, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. (1745 Mr. Whitson's Primitive NT)
“I am Alpha and Omega,” saith the Lord God, that is, and was, and that is to come, the Almighty. (1769 Newcome's NT)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (1769 AV)
‘I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,’ saith the Lord, ‘which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.’ (2011 New Cambridge Paragraph Bible, which has recent compilation of 1611 Authorized Version as intended by the translation committee: printing presses in the 1600's had humans manually placing letters so printings of 1611 AV text has a number of variants: e.g. "He/She" in Ruth 3:15, Wicked printing left out "not" from command: Thou shalt not commit adultery).
εγω ειμι το αλφα και το ω λεγει κυριος ο θεος ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος ο παντοκρατωρ (1872 Tischendorf Novem Testamentum Graece)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (1873 AV)
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ ἄλφα καὶ τὸ ὦ, λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ. (1874 Alford Greek NT) has ho theos
I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. (1901 American Standard Version)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (1984 NIV)
“I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, Beginning and End,” says יהוה “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (2000 The Scriptures)
The Master declares, “I’m A to Z. I’m The God Who Is, The God Who Was, and The God About to Arrive. I’m the Sovereign-Strong.” (2005 The Message)
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, the All-Powerful. (2012 Lexham English Bible)
English has hundreds of translations, which vary in focus from formal (literal) to dynamic (thought for thought) to paraphrastic (thoughts with application in modern English). Lexham English Bible (LEB) is a modern formal translation (my preferred English Bible for Christian Discourse discussions). The 1901 American Standard Version (ASV) is an older formal translation, which oft has Jehovah. At the other end of translation spectrum is The Message.
Revelation 1:8 has Greek textual variants:
1:8 ῏Ω {A}
After ῏Ω the Textus Receptus, following א* 1 (2344) itgig, vg al adds ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος, and twenty other minuscules add ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. If the longer text were original no good reason can be found to account for the shorter text, whereas the presence of the longer expression in 21:6 obviously prompted some copyists to expand the text here.
Bruce Manning Metzger, United Bible Societies, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies’ Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.) (London; New York: United Bible Societies, 1994), 663.
FWIW: א* 1 (2344) itgig, vg al are identifiers of various textual witnesses: Greek manuscripts, Latin Vulgate Bible, and other witnesses (e.g. Syriac).
Thankful for my Pastor warning me that engaging in online respectful theological discussion does not change belief of the participants (while need to guard my own heart ❤️abiding in Holy God). Human nature is stubborn (as reflected in this thread, which started on April 2019 and thus far has had no change in belief about Who Jesus really is by any participant). My hypothesis is every human word expression & action flow from internal belief embedding personal choice what to really, really, really Love ❤️most. Any human that wants to really Love ❤️God first with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength can experience a spiritual abiding in God (beyond words to describe well: e.g. John 10:10). List to Love ❤️God first roughly corresponds with life domains: emotional, mental, social, physical, & spiritual. When Spiritual abiding in ❤️God is Holy & Righteous, all the other life domains fit together well: Be Holy as God is Holy, includes Righteous Love ❤️ God's Fruit of is briefly listed in Galatians 5:22-23 Love, Joy, Peace, Patience (Long-Suffering, Perserverance), Kindness (Gentleness), Goodness (Generosity), Faithfulness (Faith), Humility (Gentleness, Meekness), Self-Control (Temperance). Easy to type in English Holy "Fruit" words gleaned from several translations. Humanly unable to express immense magnitude of whole Holy Fruit beautifully fit together. Thankful for Holy Lord יהוה God's ❤️Loving presence + ongoing changes in me 😍
Keep Smiling 😊
Post edited by Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus on -
Again, the "shotgun blast" where it seems like the poster know a great deal when he does not.
Why not take one point at a time?
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@BroRando posted:
Christ is the angel of Jehovah. (Exodus 3:2)
Having claimed, but to-date refused to demonstrate, that Christ is the angel in Acts 27.23, you now claim that Christ is the angel who appears in Exodus 3.2. In context, however, the Exodus 3 passage does not support your claim.
Note that the "angel of the Lord" appears to Moses in Exodus 3.2 "from the middle of a bush," but never says anything. The first voice other than Moses's that the text quotes is God's (Exodus 3.4), who speaks "from the middle of the bush." That is, the text places BOTH the "angel of the LORD" and God in "the middle" of the bush. What can that mean? The "angel of the Lord" is actually God, not a distinct being. From the beginning, there is one entity in the bush, not two. (Note that at no time does Moses express surprise at God's presence in the bush IN ADDITION to the angel's.)
Consider Judges 6.11-24, where in v.11, an "angel of the LORD" appears to Gideon. Over the course of the scene, the angel speaks in Judges 6.12,20, then disappears in Judges 6.21. God speaks in Judges 6.14,16,18, and, responding to Gideon's alarm at having seen the angel of the LORD, in Judges 6.23. What explains the interplay of the two characters in the Judges 6 passage? That they are one in the same. (Note that at no time does Gideon express surprise at God's presence in the scene IN ADDITION to the angel's.)
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Note that the "angel of the Lord" appears to Moses in Exodus 3.2 "from the middle of a bush," but never says anything. The first voice other than Moses's that the text quotes is God's (Exodus 3.4), who speaks "from the middle of the bush." That is, the text places BOTH the "angel of the LORD" and God in "the middle" of the bush. What can that mean? The "angel of the Lord" is actually God, not a distinct being. From the beginning, there is one entity in the bush, not two. (Note that at no time does Moses express surprise at God's presence in the bush IN ADDITION to the angel's.)
The flame in the middle of the bush by figure of speech metonymy is "the angel of the LORD" that appeared to Moses, then this was followed by God speaking to Moses. I would not understand the text to indicate that the messenger of the LORD is actually God Himself ... rather the burning flame was symbolically God's messenger.
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I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
Translators not only removed God's Name but also removed GOD from latter revisions. Replacing it with LORD because that's what they did.... and that deception did not go far enough so they took LORD and made it into a little Lord ... (Rev 1:8)
Trinitarians tried to mimic the theology of the nameless trinity generic formula. Names were not to be added but rather a removal of them. The removal of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ was under attack. That attack continues today. (Rev 1:8) at one time did have a Name in it but can you guess whose it was?
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith Jehovah God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Switched to:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Switched to:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Switched to:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
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@theMadJW Again, the "shotgun blast" where it seems like the poster know a great deal when he does not.
Apologies for me not being able to read your mind. Please provide your discussion question(s). Honestly will pray and try to respond.
@theMadJW Why not take one point at a time?
Puzzled: why post graphics having more than one point ? (e.g. 12 are listed in one copied above: text embedded in your graphic is difficult for reading: too much in one image). Personally interested in theological discussion with you, not your graphics.
Are words of Jesus true ?
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (Revelation 22:13 ASV)
@theMadJW Jehovah is the First and Last God, Christ is his first and His last Savior.
Greek word for Savior is not in Revelation 22:13 so really Who is "the first and the last" ? Jehovah & Jesus = One God (consistent with John 10:30)
Please learn how to quote so your reply can respond to more than one point (as many CD forum participanta have done for online discussion).
@BroRando Christ is the angel of Jehovah. (Exodus 3:2)
Who saw Moses turn in Exodus 3:4 ? Who spoke with Moses in Exodus 3:4-4:17 ?
In Exodus, Hebrew מַלְאָךְ (angel, messenger, H4397) occurs in Exodus 3:2 with next occurence in Exodus 14:19
What is the first Bible verse having Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ mâshîyach (Messiah, Christ, H4899) ?
What is the first prophetic Bible verse having מָשִׁיחַ mâshîyach, anointed one ?
Merely repeating your previous translation progress post does not improve credibility.
Again, What are your sources ? What are the names of English Translations ? When published ?
@BroRando I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith Jehovah God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
My English Bible text research did not find this translation. None of the English Bibles in my Logos Library have Jehovah in Revelation 1:8 text. Suspect your "first" translation is relatively recent. Hence, "claimed" translation progress is incorrect revision of Bible translation history.
To my knowledge, the 1745 publication of Mr. Whitson's Primitive NT is the first English translation that has Lord God in Revelation 1:8 text, which was preceded by earlier translations in 1382, 1536, 1537, 1560, 1611 having Lord. Thankful for my printed Bible library having two photocopies: 1537 Matthew's Bible has Lorde (does not have verse numbers) & 1560 Geneva Bible has Lord (not have God while does have verse numbers).
@BroRando I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
@BroRando Switched to:
@BroRando I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Chronological order of English Bible translation shows reverse progress: LORD => LORD God (as more Greek manuscripts were discovered)
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FYI: Greek term eisήγησις "eisegesis" simply means "into read"
FWIW: Logos Basic search for <Lemma = lbs/el/ἐξήγησις> found only one Bible verse: ἐξήγησις "exegesis" was translated as "chatter":
A fool’s chatter is like a burden on a journey, but delight is found in the speech of the intelligent. (Sirach 21:16 NRSV)
Keep Smilng 😊
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@BroRando God is not a man nor the Son of man (Number 23:19)
Our spiritual adversary is a master of deception, which includes using Bible snippets. Numbers 23:19 context is parable given to Balaam for Balak:
And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto another place, from whence thou mayest see them; thou shalt see but the utmost part of them, and shalt not see them all: and curse me them from thence. And he took him into the field of Zophim, to the top of Pisgah, and built seven altars, and offered up a bullock and a ram on every altar. And he said unto Balak, Stand here by thy burnt-offering, while I meet Jehovah yonder. And Jehovah met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus shalt thou speak. And he came to him, and, lo, he was standing by his burnt-offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath Jehovah spoken? And he took up his parable, and said,
Rise up, Balak, and hear; Hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: God is not a man, that he should lie, Neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: And he hath blessed, and I cannot reverse it. He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. God bringeth them forth out of Egypt; He hath as it were the strength of the wild-ox. Surely there is no enchantment with Jacob; Neither is there any divination with Israel: Now shall it be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! Behold, the people riseth up as a lioness, And as a lion doth he lift himself up: He shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, And drink the blood of the slain. (Numbers 23:13-24 ASV)
Phrase "Jehovah his God" in Numbers 23:21 has singular Jehovah & plural God. Other translations of God in Numbers 23:19-24 are singular.
Who is your article intended for ? Possibly @BroRando (since your post was an hour later)
How is religion news article relevant for this thread ? (lacks your question for discussion)
FWIW: linked article did not comment about idea of Massorete vowel pointing being accurate OR intentionally "disguising" God's name (using Adonai vowels). Yehovah is also Adonai vowel sounds with יהוה (first letter of יהוה can be transliterated into English as "J" OR "Y")
The Mishnah is the codification of Jewish oral law about 200 CE, which has two insights about יהוה pronunciation:
Third Division - Women - Sotah m. Sota 7:6 (point C euphemism spoken for יהוה in the provinces)
7:6 A The blessing of the priests [M. 7:2A4]—how so?
B In the provinces they say it as three blessings, and in the sanctuary, as one blessing.
C In the sanctuary one says the Name as it is written but in the provinces, with a euphemism.
D In the provinces the priests raise their hands as high as their shoulders, but in the sanctuary, they raise them over their heads,
E except for the high priest, who does not raise his hands over the frontlet.
F R. Judah says, “Also the high priest raises his hands over the frontlet,
G “since it is said, And Aaron lifted up his hands toward the people and blessed them (Lev. 9:22).”
Jacob Neusner, The Mishnah : A New Translation (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1988), 458.
Fifth Division - Holy Things - Tamid m. Tamid 7:2 (point F pronounciation uses epithet in the provinces for יהוה)
7:2 A They [the priests who had participated] came and stood on the steps of the porch.
B They who were first [the one who removed the ashes of the inner altar, and the one who cleaned up the candlestick, the one who carried the shovel and the one who offered the incense and his associate] took up a position at the south of their brethren, the priests.
C And five utensils were in their hand: (1) the ash bin in the hand of one, (2) the oil jar in the hand of one, and (3) the fire shovel in the hand of one, (4) the [incense] dish in the hand of one, and (5) the ladle and its cover [M. 5:4] in the hand of one.
D They said one [priestly] blessing for the people [Num. 6:24–26].
E But: In the provinces they say it as three blessings, and in the sanctuary, as one blessing.
F In the sanctuary they would pronounce the [divine] name as it is written, and in the provinces, by an epithet.
G In the provinces the priests raise up the palms of their hands as high as their shoulders, and in the sanctuary, over their heads,
H except for the high priest, who does not raise his hands higher than the frontlet.
I R. Judah says, “Even the high priest raises his hands above the frontlet,
J “since it is said, And Aaron lifted up his hands toward the people and blessed them (Lev. 9:22)” [M. Sot. 7:6].
Jacob Neusner, The Mishnah : A New Translation (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1988), 871–872.
Vowel pointed Jewish Bible was destined for use in the provinces. Jewish priests inside the Holy Temple pronounced יהוה correctly.
Keep Smiling 😊
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I am given the impression by posts from @BroRando and also @theMadJW that neither of them is really interested in exchange on topics and answering questions or commenting in detail on other forum participants' points raised .... seems more like two "preachers" promoting a certain "denominational" agenda ???
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Saul asked ‘Who are you, Lord (יהוה) ?' that was answered: "I AM Jesus ..." (same Greek words as 65 Jewish translations of "I JEHOVAH" => "I AM")
Jehovah is the I AM THAT I AM..... the Messenger is Jesus I AM.. The angel that was SENT...
I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him." (Exodus 23:20-21)
This messenger would have God's Name in him .... 😁
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Hmmm! It seems he will only be happy if we disagree with scripture.....
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I'm having the impression he won't be happy unless we IGNORE the scriptures.....
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The issue Wolfgang raised was not about your agreement or disagreement. In these forums, you're free to agree and disagree with whom- and whatever you choose. The issue rather was your willingness or unwillingness to respond to the questions put to you in response to the content of your posts. To-date, I think it's fair to say, you've been unwilling to respond; in fact, to-date, you've been unwilling even to acknowledge the existence of the majority of the questions put to you. Such a practice severely hampers genuine exchanges of ideas, and comes across as disrespectful of the posters who have posed the questions. Moreover, such a practice strongly suggests a concern that truthful answers to those questions (and/or the discussion that would result from those answers) would display the weakness of your arguments, which is a risk you're evidently unwilling to take.
You're not the only CD posters who choose to disregard questions put to you, but that doesn't justify your practice. If you want the rest of us to take your posts seriously, you should take seriously the questions we put to you (as we should take seriously the questions you put to us). Refusing even to mention questions, as you routinely do, is not taking questions seriously. My guess is that doesn't matter to you. Based on your response to me in our first forum exchange, these are not the first forums in which your posting practices have generated push back. It's up to you to decide whether your approach to others' questions in the CD forums improves on or simply repeats that history.
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I'm sorry you feel that way.
Proof?
Name some examples?
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This post of yours is sufficient proof.
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As originally posted on June 4, HERE:
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@BroRando posted:
Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24)
In a post created on May 30, I engaged what was then your new contention of a connection between Proverbs 8 and Paul's assertion about Christ in 1 Corinthians 1. At the end of that May 30 post I asked you two questions:
- On what basis do you have confidence that by his use of the female term "חָכְמָה," the author of Proverbs 8 intends to refer to a male (or female, for that matter) human being?
- On what basis do you have confidence that Paul is referencing wisdom as described in Proverbs 8 when he asserts that Jesus "became wisdom from God" to us (1 Cor 1.30, ESV)?
You did not respond to my questions, so I re-posed them to you in THIS POST and then THIS POST.
When you didn't respond to either of those appearances of the questions, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus reminded you of them in THIS POST and then THIS POST.
You did not respond.
I then offered you the sixth presentation of those two questions in THIS POST.
In response, you asserted that you had already answered my questions, which prompted me to ask for links to the specific posts in which you had done so.
You did not respond.
Those two questions made their seventh - and most recent - appearance in THIS POST of mine on June 1.
In response, and apparently, at least in part because I had informed you that I was not a Trinitarian, in THIS POST you declared your willingness to "circle back" to my questions.
I'm still waiting... as I am still waiting for your direct response to the questions I first posed to you in THIS POST about your contention, in THIS POST, that Jesus is the angel referenced in Acts 27.23, questions that I have also have posed to you multiple times (at least four).
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This post was addressed to Bro Rando.
Next accusation?
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Whited sepulchers ...
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ANOTHER insult!
Ho-hum
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Another Lie from Holey ~~ I'm still waiting... as I am still waiting for your direct response to the questions I first posed to you in THIS POST about your contention, in THIS POST, that Jesus is the angel referenced in Acts 27.23, questions that I have also have posed to you multiple times (at least four).
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For this night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve came to me Acts 27.23
Jesus Christ is the angel of the God whose I AM...
Coly and Wogang don't believe Jesus is the I AM... oh well... blind--deaf--and dumb to God's Word.
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Though my post identified only Bro Rando with an "@," the content of the post reported its inclusion of more than one poster. To wit:
"You're not the only CD posters [plural] who choose to disregard questions put to you, but that doesn't justify your practice. If you want the rest of us to take your posts seriously, you should take seriously the questions we put to you (as we should take seriously the questions you put to us)."
But the examples my post provided were indeed of Bro Rando's posting patterns, not yours. On that score, then, I acknowledge that you, @theMadJW, have no history in these forums that I could find of failing to acknowledge/respond to the questions posed to you. So on that basis, I withdraw and apologize for the implication of my previous post that you also refuse to acknowledge questions.
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