Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?
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The problem is; unless God reveals Jesus to you, you remain in the camp of the blind Pharisees. All I can do is present the truth.
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The problem is; unless God reveals Jesus to you, you remain in the camp of the blind Pharisees. All I can do is present the truth.
Hmn ... Your ideology puts the blame actually on God ....HE must be the culprit for not having revealed Himself to the Pharisees ?? You also appear to elevate yourself above God, since you supposedly did your job of presenting but God hasn't done His job of revealing the proper understanding of what you presented???
I would say that the problem is simply that what you presented and what you think to be truth is not in harmony with what God actually already has revealed in Scripture.
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“The LORD hath made all things for himself: Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4 (KJV 1900)
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Also puzzled by @YourTruthGod comments that lack clarity: e.g. Initial post by @YourTruthGod in this thread from October 2019:
@YourTruthGod Jesus is God the Father come as a son of man.
@YourTruthGod And each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around and within. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
I'm glad you ask for clarity.
Jesus is God the Father come as a son of man. God is an invisible Spirit who lives in unapproachable light, and while still existing in that unapproachable light, He also came to earth in the flesh as a son.
Read Revelation 4:8 and note how it says, "Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."
Jesus is the one that is said of him that he was, and is, and is to come.
So then, the scripture calls him "the Lord God Almighty".
That is also God the Father's name.
They are one and the same.
My question "Assertion has puzzling wording so please clarify. If "Jesus is God the Father" then who is Abba for prayers by Jesus ?" still lacks a direct answer from @YourTruthGod. September 10 reply by @YourTruthGod had three statements that really did not answer my question:
@YourTruthGod God the Father is an Invisible Spirit and lives in unapproachable light.
@YourTruthGod God the Father while living in unapproachable light, also made Himself a physical flesh body.
@YourTruthGod The three are one, and 'one' even means 'the same'.
The Almighty God can do anything He wants. He can be in heaven and at the same time come to earth as a man, and also be in millions of people.
Who was the recipient for prayers from the physical flesh body of Jesus ? Who was The Father to Jesus ?
My questions are a variation of @Wolfgang's on September 16 (concur with @Wolfgang & @Bill_Coley about being puzzled by @YourTruthGod )
@YourTruthGod Jesus is God the Father.
@Wolfgang hmn .... hmn .... hmn .... this blind guy here just can't see what you claim there. I must be totally in the dark.
@Wolfgang Any enlightenment possible to see how someone is his own father? or how he is his own son?
God really came as a man. He lived and learned as a human son, while still existing as the Father in unapproachable light.
God is revealed to us in three, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.
There is one Spirit and one body.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
If Jesus is not God the Father, then how many Spirits are you claiming? The Bible says there is one Spirit. God the Father is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is His Spirit, and Jesus Christ is said to be the Spirit. There are not three different Spirits.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
All these scriptures tell us Jesus is the Spirit: Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17.
SBLGNT (Society of Biblical Literature Greek NT) shows John 17:4-5 is one Greek sentence that has a colon at the end of John 17:4. Jesus praying in John 17:4-5 (LEB) I have glorified you on earth by completing the work that you have given me to do. And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side* before the world existed. shows Jesus & God the Father had distinct voices before creating physical world as One God.
Before God the Father came to earth as a man named Jesus, God the Father made Himself a body in heaven, and that body is Jesus', not yet come as a man. Jesus is the First and the Last. Jesus' body before coming to earth is the Spiritual Immortal body he has in heaven now. It is the same kind of body we will all be given at the resurrection.
Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
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@Dave_L The problem is; unless God reveals Jesus to you, you remain in the camp of the blind Pharisees. All I can do is present the truth.
Peter continued trusting Jesus is Lord God, the Messiah (Christ). Hebrews 3:7-19 has a serious warning against unbelief that includes: Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God. Hebrews 3:12 (LEB) along with Hebrews 6:1-12 serious warning against falling away.
Thankful for Paul's words to Timothy: But flee from youthful desires, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, in company with those who call upon the Lord from a pure heart. But avoid foolish and uninformed controversies, because you know that they produce quarrels. And the slave of the Lord must not quarrel, but be kind toward everyone, skillful in teaching, tolerant, correcting those who are opposed with gentleness, seeing whether perhaps God may grant them repentance to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses again and escape from the trap of the devil, being held captive by him to do his will. 2 Timothy 2:22-26 (LEB) with my prayers for Lord God to grant repentance with escape from devil's trap. Sadly Jewish religious lawyers/leaders spent many years memorizing every letter of Torah along with Jewish laws & traditions, but somewhere during their studies, chose to turn their heart away from Lord God, reflected in Matthew 23 seven Woes. Many thread replies remind me of Jewish religious leaders (e.g. some Pharisees) who could strain out a gnat (similar to mustard seed size) while swallowing a camel (e.g. believe Jesus had a demon).
Irony for Jewish religious leaders was daily repetition of Deuteronomy 6:5-9, Deuteronomy 11:13-21, & Numbers 15:37-41 that became vain as their heart turned away from Lord God (Matthew 6:7). Saddest Old Covenant turning away is King Solomon, whose heart was right with Lord God at beginning of reign so Solomon's prayer received awesome wisdom answer, but Solomon chose to pursue pleasure, resulting in a foolish heart.
Ultimate sadness is the most beautiful creature ever, an archangel with free will, in the stream of worship Praising Lord God choosing "I will" (see Isaiah 14:12-17) in Lord God's Holy Heaven showing heart change from loving Lord God intensely to having no mercy on any prisoner, who now disrupts humans truly loving Lord God in any way possible, which includes self-righteous study results (like Jewish religious leaders). Our spiritual enemy, father of lies, cannot produce Holy Righteous Fruit: "Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control" pleasing to Lord God (every aspect of Holy Righteous Fruit is beyond human words to describe). Breath The Holy is specific in convicting of sin against Lord God. In contrast, our spiritual enemy uses generalities, fears, evil, doubts, confusions (truth mixed with lies), bondages, apostacies, ...
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is Lord God, would He be righteously angry with belief assumption: "God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." ? Psalm 2:12
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Wonder about your thoughts of Lord God Jesus being righteously angry with one who teaches Scriptures while not believing Jesus is Lord God ?
@Bill_Coley How is this question germane to the issues and biblical texts we're discussing?
Earlier question about Psalm 2:12 application (follow-up to Psalm 2 discussion) lacked your direct answer so rephrased question by adding Matthew 7:21-23 & James 3:1 application. Noticed question purpose has been questioned while both questions lack your thoughts. Please try to imagine pre-existent Jesus always being One in The Father as Lord God when providing your thoughts about righteous anger of Lord God.
Observant Jews say Lord (Adonai) for God's Holy Name: YHWH יְהוָ֥ה so Jewish audience of Sermon on the Mount understood Jewish Rabbi Jesus: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23 (LEB with God)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus When original Jewish audience heard repetition of ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς (translated "on the ground" in LEB), they remembered mustard seed was sown with implication human being did the seed sowing plus original parable wording repeats ὅταν σπαρῇ (when sown) after "on the ground" repetition.
@Bill_Coley On what basis do you claim to know what "original Jewish audience[s]... remembered" or inferred when they heard a repetition of the phrase "on the ground"? More specifically, on which textual basis do you draw your conclusion? I see no textual basis for your claim.
Puzzled by your reply quoting that left out my previous paragraph, which included textual basis of parable wording repetition for my conclusion:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Simply reading scripture context is not reading into the text. Lexham English Bible (LEB) translates repetition of "when", "sown", and "on the ground" to describe mustard seed in Mark 4:30-32 (LEB) And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or by what parable can we present it? It is like a mustard seed that when sown on the ground, although it is the smallest of all the seeds that are on the ground, but when it is sown it grows up and becomes the largest of all the garden herbs, and sends out large branches so that the birds of the sky are able to nest in its shade.”
Original parable wording has repetition closer together: Καὶ ἔλεγεν· Πῶς ὁμοιώσωμεν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἢ ἐν τίνι αὐτὴν παραβολῇ θῶμεν; ὡς κόκκῳ σινάπεως, ὃς ὅταν σπαρῇ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, μικρότερον ὂν πάντων τῶν σπερμάτων τῶν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς— καὶ ὅταν σπαρῇ, ἀναβαίνει καὶ γίνεται μεῖζον πάντων τῶν λαχάνων καὶ ποιεῖ κλάδους μεγάλους, ὥστε δύνασθαι ὑπὸ τὴν σκιὰν αὐτοῦ τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ κατασκηνοῦν. Mark 4:30-32 (SBLGNT)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Mark 4:30-32 (NLT) Jesus said, “How can I describe the Kingdom of God? What story should I use to illustrate it? It is like a mustard seed planted in the ground. It is the smallest of all seeds, but it becomes the largest of all garden plants; it grows long branches, and birds can make nests in its shade.” leaves out original language repetition of "on the ground" (ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς), "when" (ὅταν), "sown" (σπαρῇ) to describe "it" (mustard seed) as the smallest. Factually the parable wording in New Living Translation (NLT) is missing original language repetition. Also your idea "The parable contained an inaccurate assertion of fact" ignores "planted in the ground" context of the preceding NLT sentence.
@Bill_Coley In the Marcan passage, the phrase "on the ground" does NOT limit the variety of seed types from which Jesus crowns "the smallest of all seeds." In the text, the repetition of phrase "on the ground" instead identifies the current location of the compared seeds. The passage says a mustard seed, when on the ground, is the smallest of all seeds that are on the ground; it does NOT say mustard seeds are the smallest of all sown seeds, or of all seeds sown by people. The seeds' characteristic identified in the passage is their location when compared, NOT how they got to those locations.
Your idea "NOT how they got to those locations" ignores repetition of ὅταν σπαρῇ (when sown) that implies Jewish human planting in a garden.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Concur "the orchid seed is the smallest of all seeds on earth" is correct for 'in the air' propagation of several orchid varieties, but original language parable wording has not been proven false, which was also lacking in the article you linked on October 1 that mentioned three flower seed sizes smaller than mustard (has a footnote to an archived online discussion). Historical Socio-Rhetorical proof about Jewish planting in the ground lacks proof about smaller seeds being planted.
@Bill_Coley In the text, a seed's means of propagation is NOT the issue.
Disagree as original parable wording repetition in the text specifies the means of propagation & location: when sown on the ground.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In fact, the silence of hostile hearers in original audience speaks volumes about original parable wording being true.
@Bill_Coley On what basis do you claim that the "hostile hearers" knew what seed was the smallest on earth?
Hostile hearers only needed a valid counter claim. For Mark 8:30-32 parable, a seed sown in the ground smaller than a mustard seed would have provided Jewish religious leaders (experts at straining out gnats) reason to label Jesus as deceiver (sinner) & possibly ban Jesus from synagogues.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Really curious about your direct answer to my previous relevant question: "Did God The Father err in parable wording for Jesus to speak ?"
@Bill_Coley No. But then again, Jesus spoke the parable, not God.
While remembering John 12:44-50, What parable words did Jesus speak: his own OR what Lord God The Father commanded Jesus to speak ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus To me, One God has three distinct voices perfectly unified forever. Jesus was at the side of The Father before creation of physical things, yet Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever (has not and will not become The Father while intimately sharing One God's Spiritual Essence).
@Bill_Coley I respect and accept this as your personal faith statement, but it is one that, in my view, is not supported by Scripture.
Repeating oxymoronic scripture view disrespects my trust in Jesus being truthful in John 17:5 and 17:24 where Jesus existed at The Father's side before creation of physical world. Lord God's planning for The Word of God to leave Holy Heaven to inhabit a male human body included Lord God's Glory and Love being experienced when physical world had not yet been created out of nothing by The Word of God speaking what The Father commanded so Breath The Holy instantiated/implemented. My faith in the literal truthfulness of Scripture recognizes a non-scriptural conjectural possibility for Arian hymn phrase about Jesus: 'ἦν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν' ‘there was when He was not’ from a lesson learned during computer programming that at times is better to start coding anew (over). Non-scripture possiblity is Lord God choosing to destroy entire physical realm so Lord God could change configuration into being One plural unified God so physical creation out of nothing truly shows God's Glory. Personally believe Jesus was at The Father's side during planning phase(s) for physical world plus One Lord God's nature is truthfully consistent, which includes Jesus (The Word of God) and The Father (The Will of God) and Breath The Holy being One plural unified God: was, is, & will be.
@Bill_Coley@Bill_Coley Jeremiah 23.5-6: God will raise up a new shepherd from David's line. I read this as God's promise of a righteous shepherd who will replace the irresponsible ones currently in power. I don't believe the prophet intends for his audience to believe that God will improve their leadership, but not for several hundred years.
Current culture has many instant gratification opportunities so several hundred years seems unreasonable (only understandable in hindsight). Thankful for Jeremiah being an obedient prophet who shared what Lord God commanded (without understanding the when of Lord God's plan).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Please consider evidence for New Testament audiences understanding κύριος (Lord) to be יהוה (Deity, God). The etymology of Jehovah reflects Jewish tradition of saying Adonai (אָדוֹן) whenever יהוה appeared (Jehovah is the YHVH consonants with Adonai vowels). Hebrew scriptures were translated to Greek about 200 years prior to Jesus. Hebrew has 6,358 יהוה occurrences that were translated as κύριος 6,040 times and θεὸς 318 times in the Septuagint (LXX). The Jewish audience for Peter in Acts 2 had heard God's Holy name as κύριος (Lord) many, many times in the Synagogue weekly reading of scripture. If Peter had believed that Jesus was not God, Peter would not have used κύριος (Lord). Peter used κύριος (Lord) without modifying its well known Deity meaning. Hence hearers of Peter understood Deity declaration about Jesus.
@Bill_Coley That's not what the text says. In Acts 2.36 Peter says "God made" Jesus "Lord and Messiah." How could one who was already Lord (if translated as "God") be "made" to be "Lord" (i.e. God)? And how could one whom God "made" also be God? Did Peter's audience expect their "messiah" to be God or someone God raised up from among them?
Thankful for The Word of God freely choosing to humble self by leaving Holy Heaven throne (shared in The Father as One Lord God) to inhabit a male human body as Yeshua (YHWH Salvation). Humanly do not know all that The Word of God humbly set aside (Philippians 2.5-11) to dwell in a human body, which could be lovingly offered as a Holy substitutionary sacrifice for sin. After bodily resurrection, ascension to Holy Heaven completed blood offering in Lord God's Heavenly Tabernacle, followed by Psalm 110:1 fulfillment: The Lord God said to my Lord God: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool" that is truly consistent with Jesus saying in Matthew 28:18 "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me" that 'made' Jesus Lord God ruling in Holy Heaven as The King of Righteousness, The Messiah, on David's throne forever.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jewish people gathered for the annual Jewish feast of Shavu'ot in the Jewish Temple understood Jewish Peter to finish Acts 2 message with:
For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says, ‘The Lord God said to my Lord God, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” ’ Therefore let all the house of Israel know beyond a doubt, that Lord God has made him both Lord God and Messiah—this Jesus whom you crucified!”
Result was ~3,000 Jews pierced in their hearts so they repented from their sins & believed in Yeshua, Jesus as Lord God, their Holy redeemer.
@Bill_Coley In my view, the text simply does not support this interpretation, in large part because this is not what the text says. Peter believed his audience needed to be told overtly that God had raised Jesus from the dead, and had made him "Lord and messiah," but did NOT believe he needed to tell them overtly that Jesus was God? That makes no sense to me. Hence, in my view, the fact that Peter NEVER says Jesus is God is dispositive evidence that Peter does not believe Jesus is God.
Puzzled by Gentile thought process being read into Jewish culture so Gentile "dispositive evidence" idea is invalid for Jewish deity expression where Peter says Jesus is Lord God and Messiah to complete Acts 2 message so Jews chose to repent of their sins & believe Jesus is Lord God. Observant Jews daily say Deuteronomy 6:5-9, Deuteronomy 11:13-21, & Numbers 15:37-41 plus have Mezuzahs on door posts with a small scroll having Deuteronomy 6:5-9 and Deuteronomy 11:13-21 text for a visible reminder (when scroll is read, Lord is said for God's most Holy Name)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Rhetorical question: can the "originator of life" in Acts 3:15 really be a human being (spiritual descendent of God's breath of Life into dust) ?
@Bill_Coley Rhetorical answer: Yes, if that's what God wants.
How ? Please explain how Yes answer could happen if that's what Lord God wants.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Definition of title "President Obama" is the American Leader (King) so the King deciding to send the King (self) is a leadership decision.
@Bill_Coley Again, by definition, the one who sends is different from the one or thing the sender sends.
Vague "by definition" idea sounds authoritative while lacking authority. Leaders decide to be the leader (send self) OR to delegate (send another).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Remember these Jewish religious leaders outwardly appeared righteous, which included obeying the Ten Commandments. If they were mistaken, then they violated God's commandment against murder (so publically would appear to be unrighteous, sinners, which was abhorant to them).
@Bill_Coley So when the Pharisees contended that Jesus could cast out demons "because he is empowered by the prince of demons"(Matthew 9.34), do you argue that they must have been correct because "[i]f they were mistaken, then they violated God's commandment against [bearing false witness] (so publically [sic] would appear to be unrighteous, sinners, which was abhorant [sic] to them)"?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jewish religious leaders believed they were correct (according to their own words): The Jews answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” John 8:48 (LEB), but what were God's loving words (rebuke) spoken thru Jesus to them: Jesus replied, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me! But I do not seek my own glory. There is one who seeks and judges! Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never experience death forever.” John 8:49-51 (LEB)
@Bill_Coley @Bill_Coley 1. You refer here to a different text from the one I referenced. I referred to Matthew 9.34. You refer to John 8.48. Do you have a comment on the verse I asked you about?
John 8:49-51 has Lord God's loving rebuke as does Matthew 12:22-32 while Matthew 9:34 has footnote J in New Revised Standard Version (NRSV): "other ancient authorities lack this verse" (also mentioned in Metzger's Textual Commentary). Jewish religious leaders swallowed a camel instead of believing Jesus is Lord God. These Pharisees had two choices to explain many miracles: believe demonic lies OR Believe & Praise Lord God.
@Bill_Coley 2. You materially change your claim about the Jewish religious leaders. In a previous post, you argued the religious leaders must have been correct in their belief that Jesus had claimed to be God because "[i]f they were mistaken, then they violated God's commandment against murder (so publically [sic] would appear to be unrighteous, sinners, which was abhorant [sic] to them)." But in this most recent post, you say only that the leaders "believed" themselves to be correct. My point all along has been that just because the leaders BELIEVED they were correct does not necessarily mean that they actually WERE correct. It is possible that they were MISTAKEN in their belief.
Puzzled by reply quoting leaving out textual basis of Jewish religious leader appearence in previous reply:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jewish religious leader appearance was described by God in Matthew 23:25-26 (LEB) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees—hypocrites!—because you cleanse the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence! Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
My reading of a previous post on 13 November found lack of interaction with Luke 22:67 so your ongoing use of "BELIEVED" to describe Sanhedrin leaders disrespects truthful words spoken by Jesus.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In Luke 22:67, Jesus spoke God's words in the Sanhedrin to Jewish religious leaders that they would never believe. Hence your continuing use of "BELIEVED" to describe reaction of those religious leaders to what they heard Jesus say simply disagrees with what God said would never happen.
Considering consistent refusal by Jewish Supreme Court members to believe Jesus is Lord God, am amazed at them understanding deity words spoken by Jesus that became blasphemy basis for wanting Jesus put to death per Leviticus 24:10-23 for cursing Lord God = Blasphemy.
@Bill_Coley I repeat the question you didn't address: So when the Pharisees contended that Jesus could cast out demons "because he is empowered by the prince of demons" (Matthew 9.34), do you argue that they must have been correct because "[i]f they were mistaken, then they violated God's commandment against [bearing false witness] (so publically [sic] would appear to be unrighteous, sinners, which was abhorant [sic] to them)"? Or instead, do you argue that the Pharisees were mistaken in their belief that Jesus was "empowered by the prince of demons"? If you believe they were mistaken about that belief about Jesus, isn't it possible that they were mistaken about other beliefs about Jesus?
Refusal to believe Jewish Rabbi Jesus is Lord God (for explaining many miracles) resulted in Jewish religious leaders believing demonic deception (swallowing a camel), which publically violated Lord God's commandment against bearing false witness. Sad for Jewish religious leaders who heard & understood deity words of Jesus, but believed those words cursed Lord God so they believed Jesus deserved death. Hardness of Jewish religious leader hearts against truly loving Lord God violated the most important command in Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (daily repetition of words had become vain & worthless) plus deceptive belief showed later as Sanhedrin commanded not to teach in the name of Jesus in Acts 4:5-22
@YourTruthGod I'm glad you ask for clarity.
Jesus is God the Father come as a son of man. God is an invisible Spirit who lives in unapproachable light, and while still existing in that unapproachable light, He also came to earth in the flesh as a son.
Read Revelation 4:8 and note how it says, "Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."
Jesus is the one that is said of him that he was, and is, and is to come.
So then, the scripture calls him "the Lord God Almighty".
That is also God the Father's name.
They are one and the same.
Puzzling. Phrase "Who was, and is, and is to come" is the meaning of Lord God's most Holy Name YHWH יְהוָ֥ה (spoken by Lord God to Moses in Exodus 3:14). The name Jesus does not appear in Revelation 4 while the One on the throne is described. Revelation 5:1 describes the One on the throne holding a scroll. In Revelation 5:7, Who received the scroll from the right hand of the One on the throne ? Who is the One on the throne ?
Please provide scripture reference(s) where Jesus is called "Lord God Almighty". Logos Bible Software search for phrase "Lord God Almighty" found five results in KJV 1900 (verses in Revelation read to me as "Lord God 'Father' Almighty").
Agree The Father (The Will of God) and Jesus (The Word of God) are always One (sharing One image of God) while having distinct voices.
@YourTruthGod The Almighty God can do anything He wants. He can be in heaven and at the same time come to earth as a man, and also be in millions of people.
Who spoke from Heaven when Jesus was baptized on earth ? Now after he was baptized, Jesus immediately went up from the water, and behold, the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove coming upon him. And behold, there was a voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:16-17 (LEB)
@YourTruthGod If Jesus is not God the Father, then how many Spirits are you claiming? The Bible says there is one Spirit. God the Father is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is His Spirit, and Jesus Christ is said to be the Spirit. There are not three different Spirits.
Personally believe Jesus was at The Father's side during planning phase(s) for physical world plus One Lord God's nature is truthfully consistent, which includes The Father (The Will of God) and Jesus (The Word of God) and Breath The Holy being One plural unified God: was, is, & will be.
@YourTruthGod 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
First man Adam refers to Genesis 2:7 while the last Adam is Jesus, who was conceived without sin (dark) nature inherited from first man Adam (created Holy by Lord God's breath of life into dust). The last Adam was miraculously conceived as Holy followed by choosing to remain Holy as our spiritual adversary tried sinful tactics against Jesus that have resulted in all human beings choosing to sin. Jesus is Light (no darkness at all).
The seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation begin by describing Jesus, followed by "I know ..." while near end of letter is phrase "ὁ ἔχων οὖς ἀκουσάτω τί τὸ πνεῦμα λέγει ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις" "The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (LEB) that is preceded by "I" declarations. Third person reference to The Spirit also occurs in Revelation 22:17 (personally believe The Spirit is Breath The Holy, which is consistent with 2 Corinthians 3 about The Spirit of The Lord being Breath The Holy). Revelation 14:13 does not say which voice(s) of One plural unified God spoke awesome words about ones obeying Lord God with faith Jesus is Lord God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus SBLGNT (Society of Biblical Literature Greek NT) shows John 17:4-5 is one Greek sentence that has a colon at the end of John 17:4. Jesus praying in John 17:4-5 (LEB) I have glorified you on earth by completing the work that you have given me to do. And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side* before the world existed. shows Jesus & God the Father had distinct voices before creating physical world as One God.
@YourTruthGod Before God the Father came to earth as a man named Jesus, God the Father made Himself a body in heaven, and that body is Jesus', not yet come as a man. Jesus is the First and the Last. Jesus' body before coming to earth is the Spiritual Immortal body he has in heaven now. It is the same kind of body we will all be given at the resurrection.
Arian hymn phrase about Jesus: 'ἦν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν' ‘there was when He was not’ simply disagrees with everything being created through Jesus per Colossians 1:9-20 (noticed a semi-colon in the SBLGNT sentence of Colossians 1:9-23 is translated in LEB as a period to end Colossians 1:9-20, which matches the Clause Analysis in the OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament).
Keep Smilling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote
Observant Jews say Lord (Adonai) for God's Holy Name: YHWH יְהוָ֥ה so Jewish audience of Sermon on the Mount understood Jewish Rabbi Jesus: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’Matthew 7:21-23 (LEB with God)
YOUR idea that "Jewish audience of Sermon on the Mount understood Jewish Rabbi Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord God, Lord God ..." is blatantly false and in no way what Jesus was saying."
From where do you even get the idea that "Observant Jews say Lord (Adonai) for God's Holy Name: YHWH יְהוָ֥ה ..." would mean that a Jewish audience would misunderstand the terms "Lord" and YHWH in the manner you suggest?? Do you not see that what you claim here has nothing to do with how an audience understood what Jesus mean when he was saying the word "Lord"?? While obviously Jesus knew the difference between the words "Lord", "YWHW", and "God" depending on the context in which these were used by others and also by himself, YOU apparently are ignorant of their meaning in their use and usage in different contexts ???
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Observant Jews say Lord (Adonai) for God's Holy Name: YHWH יְהוָ֥ה so Jewish audience of Sermon on the Mount understood Jewish Rabbi Jesus: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’Matthew 7:21-23 (LEB with God)
@Wolfgang YOUR idea that "Jewish audience of Sermon on the Mount understood Jewish Rabbi Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord God, Lord God ..." is blatantly false and in no way what Jesus was saying."
Please consider ancient translation evidence for Jewish audience of Jewish Rabbi Jesus understanding κύριος (Lord) to be יהוה (God). Hebrew Scriptures has 6,358 יהוה occurrences that were translated as κύριος 6,040 times (Lord) and θεὸς 318 times (God) in the Greek Septuagint (LXX).
@Wolfgang From where do you even get the idea that "Observant Jews say Lord (Adonai) for God's Holy Name: YHWH יְהוָ֥ה ..." would mean that a Jewish audience would misunderstand the terms "Lord" and YHWH in the manner you suggest?? Do you not see that what you claim here has nothing to do with how an audience understood what Jesus mean when he was saying the word "Lord"?? While obviously Jesus knew the difference between the words "Lord", "YWHW", and "God" depending on the context in which these were used by others and also by himself, YOU apparently are ignorant of their meaning in their use and usage in different contexts ???
Curious what κύριος (Lord) in Matthew 7:21-23 context means from your faith belief perspective ? (so far you have only offered "blatantly false")
Thankful for Jesus truthfully teaching human beings would say to Jesus: Lord God, Lord God with Jesus replying as Lord God in Matthew 7:21-23 (since ALL Authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given to Jesus, the ones commanded to depart have to leave Lord God's Loving presence)
Thankful for Bible introductory articles about Lord God's Holy Name and Jewish traditions: (ancient ways continue to this day)
- TLV Guidelines for revering “The Name” in Messianic Jewish Family Bible Society, Holy Scriptures: Tree of Life Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2015), xiii.
- The Restoration of The Name in Institute for Scripture Research, The Scriptures (South Africa: Institute for Scripture Research (Pty) Ltd, 2000), xi.
- X. THE NAME OF GOD IN THE COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE in Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed.). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
Suggest searching internet for: Jew Adonai Tetragrammaton that finds many results, including a Jewish Learning article => https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-tetragrammaton/
If Jesus is truly Lord God, would He be righteously angry with "blatantly false" & "apparently ignorant" accusations ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote
Curious what κύριος (Lord) in Matthew 7:21-23 context means from your faith belief perspective ? (so far you have only offered "blatantly false")
κύριος (Lord) in Matthew 7:21-23 context means Lord. Plain and simple, isn't it? Did Jesus not know the word "God" to refer to God ?? Why did he use the word "Lord" ?? Also, when Jesus meant to speak of "the LORD God", he used exactly those words as he quoted from Scripture, such as in Mt 4:7 and Mt 4:10
Since according to you, the Jewish understanding would have been correct in acknowledging Jesus to be their Lord God, how come Jewish folks did nowhere acknowledge him as "Lord God" ??
If Jesus is truly Lord God, would He be righteously angry with "blatantly false" & "apparently ignorant" accusations ?
Why should he as my Lord be angry with me pointing out your error whereby you are making him something he was not and is not? Perhaps he will not be as pleased with you, as you may be serving a different "Jesus" from the one you think you are serving?
Your premise is false = Jesus is NOT Lord God ... thus that your interpretations and conclusions are indeed blatantly false is fact.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Earlier question about Psalm 2:12 application (follow-up to Psalm 2 discussion) lacked your direct answer so rephrased question by adding Matthew 7:21-23 & James 3:1 application. Noticed question purpose has been questioned while both questions lack your thoughts. Please try to imagine pre-existent Jesus always being One in The Father as Lord God when providing your thoughts about righteous anger of Lord God.
In Psalm 2, "God's royal son" is clearly an Israelite or Judean King, not God's representative who would be born hundreds of years in the future. The psalmist quotes God as saying "I have placed my chosen king on the throne in Jerusalem, on my holy mountain.” (Psalm 2.6), meaning the "chosen king" is already on the throne when the psalmist creates the psalm. It is that king, according to the psalmist, who reports God's declaration that he (the king) is God's son, and "today" (i.e. when he is on the throne) God has become his Father" (Psalm 2.7). This text-based identification of the subject of God's attention in Psalm 2 renders moot your application of Psalm 2.12 because the one in the Psalm who is "angry" is not God, and God's "son" in the psalm is a king who reigned centuries before Jesus.
In addition, nothing in Psalm 2 or James 3 or Matthew 7 has anything to do with the logic behind a claim that Jesus can't be God because God cannot die, so that question, too, is moot.
I'll rephrase MY question about your question that referred to someone who "teaches Scriptures while not believing Jesus is Lord God." I interpreted your question to be about me since nothing in any of the texts you cited had anything to do with someone who didn't believe Jesus was God. In these forums, where the expectations are that we will "criticize ideas, not people," why did you appear to ask whether Jesus would be "righteously angry" with another CD poster? Wasn't that question a direct violation of the CD forums' expectations?
Observant Jews say Lord (Adonai) for God's Holy Name: YHWH יְהוָ֥ה so Jewish audience of Sermon on the Mount understood Jewish Rabbi Jesus: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23 (LEB with God)
There is NO indication in the text what "observant Jews" understood from Jesus' use of the title "Lord," and there is likewise NO indication anywhere in the Gospels, save perhaps John 20.28, that when people call Jesus "Lord," they mean they believe he is God. I think it's clear that "Lord" in reference to Jesus means master, leader, or one to whose authority the speaker of the term has submitted. I respect your personal faith claim about "Lord" meaning God, but in my view, there is no textual support for your claim.
For example, in Mark 7.21-23, Jesus' first declarations after his reference to some of those who call out "Lord! Lord!" say that only those who do the will of his Father - not Jesus' own will - will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and that he (Jesus) never knew those who made such a cry because they broke God's laws, not Jesus' laws. The scene reported in Matthew 7 contains no indication that Jesus believes himself to be God... among other reasons, in my view, because he doesn't believe himself to be God.
Puzzled by your reply quoting that left out my previous paragraph, which included textual basis of parable wording repetition for my conclusion.... et al....
Puzzled that you are puzzled by the way I quoted from your last post. I dealt directly with the textual aspects of the matter. We simply and strongly disagree as to the meaning and accuracy of Jesus' mustard seed claim.
While remembering John 12:44-50, What parable words did Jesus speak: his own OR what Lord God The Father commanded Jesus to speak ?
I claimed that Jesus, not God, spoke the parable in question. When you re-read the passage, I think you will agree with my conclusion.
The John 12 passage is yet another example of Jesus' making a clear distinction between himself and God:
- John 12.44: Trusting Jesus is ALSO trusting the "God who sent" Jesus. [The one sent is not the same as the one who sends.]
- John 12.45: Seeing Jesus is ALSO seeing the one "who sent" Jesus. [The one sent is not the same as the one who sends.]
- John 12.49: Jesus doesn't speak on his own authority; it is the Father who commands what and how he is to speak. [One who thought himself to be God would need authority and commands from another to speak?]
- John 12.50: Jesus says what the Father tells him to say because Jesus believes the Father's commands lead to eternal life.
I don't read the John 12 passage to be a claim of inspiration or infallibility of EVERYTHING Jesus said. For example, when he told people he had to go to the bathroom, I don't think he would have claimed God told him to say that. His claim was that he spoke God's commands fully and accurately, just as he was commanded by the one who sent him.
Repeating oxymoronic scripture view disrespects my trust in Jesus being truthful in John 17:5 and 17:24 where Jesus existed at The Father's side before creation of physical world..... Personally believe Jesus was at The Father's side during planning phase(s) for physical world plus One Lord God's nature is truthfully consistent, which includes Jesus (The Word of God) and The Father (The Will of God) and Breath The Holy being One plural unified God: was, is, & will be.
You're welcome to whatever feelings of disrespect you experience. I assure you I mean no disrespect to your views. I simply disagree with them and do not believe they are supported by Scripture.
Current culture has many instant gratification opportunities so several hundred years seems unreasonable (only understandable in hindsight). Thankful for Jeremiah being an obedient prophet who shared what Lord God commanded (without understanding the when of Lord God's plan).
The consequences of Jeremiah's word to his original audience is not a matter of "instant gratification," but rather prophetic relevance. Did the prophet believe he was writing a word relevant to the people to whom he first sent his work, or did he believe he was writing to readers in a distant century? I claim that both the prophet and his original readers believed he wrote to those to whom he first sent his work.
Thankful for The Word of God freely choosing to humble self by leaving Holy Heaven throne (shared in The Father as One Lord God) to inhabit a male human body as Yeshua (YHWH Salvation). Humanly do not know all that The Word of God humbly set aside (Philippians 2.5-11) to dwell in a human body, which could be lovingly offered as a Holy substitutionary sacrifice for sin. After bodily resurrection, ascension to Holy Heaven completed blood offering in Lord God's Heavenly Tabernacle, followed by Psalm 110:1 fulfillment: The Lord God said to my Lord God: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool" that is truly consistent with Jesus saying in Matthew 28:18 "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me" that 'made' Jesus Lord God ruling in Holy Heaven as The King of Righteousness, The Messiah, on David's throne forever.
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim, though most of it is not responsive to the questions I asked.
Psalm 110.1 does NOT say "the Lord God said to my Lord God." Using your preferred LEB translation, which is consistent with other translations: "A declaration of Yahweh to my lord, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.'" That is, the first "lord" is Jahweh, but the second "lord" is a human being.
In Acts 2.36 Peter says God "made" Jesus "Lord." Peter does NOT say God made Jesus "Lord God." You're welcome to believe God made Jesus Lord God, but that's your personal faith claim, and NOT what the text says.
Again I ask: How could one who was already Lord (if translated as "God") be "made" to be "Lord" (i.e. God)? And how could one whom God "made" also be God? Did Peter's audience expect their "messiah" to be God or someone God raised up from among them?
Puzzled by Gentile thought process being read into Jewish culture so Gentile "dispositive evidence" idea is invalid for Jewish deity expression where Peter says Jesus is Lord God and Messiah to complete Acts 2 message so Jews chose to repent of their sins & believe Jesus is Lord God. Observant Jews daily say Deuteronomy 6:5-9, Deuteronomy 11:13-21, & Numbers 15:37-41 plus have Mezuzahs on door posts with a small scroll having Deuteronomy 6:5-9 and Deuteronomy 11:13-21 text for a visible reminder (when scroll is read, Lord is said for God's most Holy Name)
Puzzled that you are puzzled by this.
Peter does NOT say Jesus is "Lord God."
How ? Please explain how Yes answer could happen if that's what Lord God wants.
In keeping with your labeling your question "rhetorical," I applied the same adjective to my response. I meant it as more whimsy than serious engagement.
As for God's actions, I believe God can effect salvation through any means and person(s) God chooses, including through the human being named Jesus.
Vague "by definition" idea sounds authoritative while lacking authority. Leaders decide to be the leader (send self) OR to delegate (send another).
From yourdictionary.com: "The definition of a sender is someone who caused something to be sent to a recipient." By definition, therefore, a sender is different from the thing or person he or she sends.
John 8:49-51 has Lord God's loving rebuke as does Matthew 12:22-32 while Matthew 9:34 has footnote J in New Revised Standard Version (NRSV): "other ancient authorities lack this verse" (also mentioned in Metzger's Textual Commentary). Jewish religious leaders swallowed a camel instead of believing Jesus is Lord God. These Pharisees had two choices to explain many miracles: believe demonic lies OR Believe & Praise Lord God.
Your reference to the NRSV footnote on Matthew 9.34 contributes to your evasion of the question I asked (FWIW, in a brief search of other translations, I couldn't find another one that reports the absence of the verse in some manuscripts) whose central thrust was the logic YOU employed in a previous post (see final response in this post).
Puzzled by reply quoting leaving out textual basis of Jewish religious leader appearence in previous reply:... My reading of a previous post on 13 November found lack of interaction with Luke 22:67 so your ongoing use of "BELIEVED" to describe Sanhedrin leaders disrespects truthful words spoken by Jesus.
And again, puzzled that you are puzzled. I dealt DIRECTLY with Luke 22.67 in multiple previous posts (e.g. THIS ONE).
Considering consistent refusal by Jewish Supreme Court members to believe Jesus is Lord God, am amazed at them understanding deity words spoken by Jesus that became blasphemy basis for wanting Jesus put to death per Leviticus 24:10-23 for cursing Lord God = Blasphemy.
I think Gospels writ large make clear there were multiple rationales that religious leaders used to call for Jesus' death. Blasphemy was only one of them, and that charge was grounded in their misapprehension of Jesus' response when asked whether he was the Messiah (NOT whether he was God).
A couple of examples:
- Matthew 12.9-14: Pharisees call a meeting to plot to kill Jesus because he effected a healing on the Sabbath
- Matthew 26.3-5: Priests and elders meet to plot how to capture and kill Jesus secretly (obviously didn't think they had much of a case if they thought they needed to capture and kill Jesus out of public view; cf Luke 22.1-2)
- Mark 11.18: Religious leaders begin to plan to kill Jesus after he overturns the tables of the moneychangers
- Luke 19.47-48: Religious leaders begin to plan to kill Jesus, but "could think of nothing."
- FWIW, in Acts 13.28 Paul tells the Christians at Antioch that religious leaders "found no legal reason to execute" Jesus, but "asked Pilate to have him killed anyway."
Refusal to believe Jewish Rabbi Jesus is Lord God (for explaining many miracles) resulted in Jewish religious leaders believing demonic deception (swallowing a camel), which publically violated Lord God's commandment against bearing false witness. Sad for Jewish religious leaders who heard & understood deity words of Jesus, but believed those words cursed Lord God so they believed Jesus deserved death. Hardness of Jewish religious leader hearts against truly loving Lord God violated the most important command in Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (daily repetition of words had become vain & worthless) plus deceptive belief showed later as Sanhedrin commanded not to teach in the name of Jesus in Acts 4:5-22
Your original argument was that religious leaders could not have spoken falsely about Jesus because any violation of the commandment not to bear false witness would have been "abhorrent" to them. USING THAT SPECIFIC LOGIC, I then asked you if you also argued that they could not have spoken falsely about Jesus when they claimed Jesus was "empowered by the prince of demons" (Matthew 9.34). If I read your response here correctly, you claim religious leaders could have been, and in fact were mistaken in at least one of their beliefs about Jesus (that he was empowered by the prince of demons). USING THAT SPECIFIC LOGIC, I contend you must allow that religious leaders could ALSO have been mistaken if they believed Jesus claimed to be God.
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@Wolfgang κύριος (Lord) in Matthew 7:21-23 context means Lord. Plain and simple, isn't it?
Weekly Jewish Synagogue scripture reading of Old Covenant simply has Adonai (אָדוֹן , κύριος , Lord) spoken for יהוה over 6,800 times every year so Jewish audience of Sermon on the Mount understood Jewish Rabbi Jesus: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘ יהוה , יהוה ’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘ יהוה , יהוה , did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’Matthew 7:21-23 (LEB with יהוה simple substitution for Lord that has κύριος reverse interlinear alignment)
FYI: in casual conversation (outside Jewish religious setting), a number of modern observant Jews simply say HaShem הָשֵׁם (The Name) for יהוה
Mt 4.7 (SBLGNT) Οὐκ ἐκπειράσεις κύριον τὸν θεόν σου. quotes Dt 6.16 (LXX Swete) Οὐκ ἐκπειράσεις Κύριον τὸν θεόν σου, that translates Hebrew לֹ֣א תְנַסּ֔וּ אֶת־יְהוָ֖ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֑ם whose structure is like Dt 6.4 שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהוָ֥ה׀ אֶחָֽד׃ LEB “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique." where God (plural) has a plural pronoun suffix (our). Looking at Greek definite article usage shows Κύριον ( יהוה ) is anarthrous (quality) while τὸν θεόν (The God) has a definite article finger pointer for identification: σου (genitive of you - singular). Mt 4.10 (SBLGNT) Κύριον τὸν θεόν σου simply repeats Κύριον quality with τὸν θεόν σου (The God of You) identifier so יהוה (Lord) is The God of the spiritual adversary tempting יהוה Jesus
Noted Hebrew God (plural) with plural pronoun was translated into Greek LXX as God (singular) with singular pronoun, which could reflect Jewish monotheistic belief that contrasted with plurality of gods (groups of deities) in all the places where Jews had been dispersed. LXX translation predates Jesus walking on earth by 200+ years and monotheistic Islam by 900+ years. Also none of the 72 LXX translators (6 each from 12 tribes of Israel) had any encounters with a prophet truly speaking: "Thus says The Lord ..." (Malachi predates LXX translation by 150+ years).
@Wolfgang Since according to you, the Jewish understanding would have been correct in acknowledging Jesus to be their Lord God, how come Jewish folks did nowhere acknowledge him as "Lord God" ??
Profound question: personally disagree with nowhere premise as New Covenant authors included Jewish people believing Jesus is יהוה (Lord)
Modern annual Jewish Haftorah reading of Old Covenant leaves out Isaiah 52:13-53:12 (fascinating variety of explanations & interpretations are available online), which is consistent with a number of Jewish Religious leaders refusing to believe Jesus is יהוה (Lord) in spite of post resurrection miracle in the name of Jesus in the Temple in Jerusalem (Acts 3) where nearby empty tomb previously held dead human body of Jesus for awhile.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is truly Lord God, would He be righteously angry with "blatantly false" & "apparently ignorant" accusations ?
@Wolfgang Why should he as my Lord be angry with me pointing out your error whereby you are making him something he was not and is not? Perhaps he will not be as pleased with you, as you may be serving a different "Jesus" from the one you think you are serving?
@Wolfgang Your premise is false = Jesus is NOT Lord God ... thus that your interpretations and conclusions are indeed blatantly false is fact.
My definition of Lord for Jesus is יהוה while curious about your definition of Lord for Jesus ? (the "he was not" idea corollary is Jesus not being truthful in his description of experiencing God's Glory & Love at The Father's side before One God created all the physical realm out of nothing)
If The Father & Jesus are יהוה (One God forever), would יהוה Jesus be righteously angry with "Jesus is NOT Lord God" premise ?
Messiah's name in Hebrew יהושׁע matches the first three letters of Hebrew Holy Name יהוה (consistent with יהושׁע Jesus being יהוה salvation)
@Bill_Coley In Psalm 2, "God's royal son" is clearly an Israelite or Judean King, not God's representative who would be born hundreds of years in the future. The psalmist quotes God as saying "I have placed my chosen king on the throne in Jerusalem, on my holy mountain.” (Psalm 2.6), meaning the "chosen king" is already on the throne when the psalmist creates the psalm. It is that king, according to the psalmist, who reports God's declaration that he (the king) is God's son, and "today" (i.e. when he is on the throne) God has become his Father" (Psalm 2.7). This text-based identification of the subject of God's attention in Psalm 2 renders moot your application of Psalm 2.12 because the one in the Psalm who is "angry" is not God, and God's "son" in the psalm is a king who reigned centuries before Jesus.
To me, Psalm 2:6 (LEB) “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” is truly consistent with Isaiah 14:13-15 (LEB) And you yourself said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise up my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit on the mountain of assembly on the summit of Zaphon; I will ascend to the high places of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit.
Please provide Scripture reference(s) for 'In Psalm 2, "God's royal son" is clearly an Israelite or Judean King, ...' OR 'God's "son" in the psalm is a king who reigned centuries before Jesus.' My Logos Bible search of Son WITHIN 7 WORDS (king,pleased,listen) did not find any Old Covenant verse that clearly matches your idea. In the New Covenant, did find God speaking: “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” in Matthew 3:17 (LEB) & “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!” in Matthew 17:5 (LEB) & “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” in Mark 1:11 (LEB) & “This is my beloved Son. Listen to him!” in Mark 9:7 (LEB) & “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” in Luke 3:22 (LEB) & “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him!” in Luke 9:35 (LEB) & “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 2 Peter 1:17 (LEB). Also a man, having a demon legion, said: “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!” in Luke 8:28
יהוה Jesus was being King on God's throne upon God's holy mountain before humbly choosing to leave Heaven for miraculous zygote cell (male physical body with The Word of God spritually) inside Mary that provides "today" context for יהוה Father & יהוה Son fulfilling Psalm 2:7 physically.
Psalm 2:10-12 (LEB with יהוה added for Son per verse 7) So then, O kings, be wise. Be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve יהוה Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the יהוה Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
If The Father & Jesus are יהוה (One God), would יהוה Son Jesus be righteously angry with idea 'the one in the Psalm who is "angry" is not God' ?
@Bill_Coley I'll rephrase MY question about your question that referred to someone who "teaches Scriptures while not believing Jesus is Lord God." I interpreted your question to be about me since nothing in any of the texts you cited had anything to do with someone who didn't believe Jesus was God. In these forums, where the expectations are that we will "criticize ideas, not people," why did you appear to ask whether Jesus would be "righteously angry" with another CD poster? Wasn't that question a direct violation of the CD forums' expectations?
My Scriptural idea implication questions are styled after your logical idea implication questions with challenging thought hypothesis:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus First principle of Celebrate Recovery keeps coming to me: "Realize I'm not God. I admit I am powerless to control my tendency to do the wrong thing and that my life is unmanageable. (Step 1)" Blessed are the poor in spirit, because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3 (LEB)
@Bill_Coley I don't see how this response in any material way engages the question I asked, so I ask it again: Please comment on the logic of my analysis of religious leaders' indictments against Jesus: If I believe you claim to be God, does that necessarily mean I am CORRECT that you claim to be God? Or is it possible that I could be WRONG to believe you claim to be God?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Apologies for me not being able to comment on your logic due to me being human, not God (so would be sin for me to claim to be God = a lie).
An idea purpose for this thread is personal encounter with יהוה Jesus, which is happening for me during prayer & study for replies. I am a human being who knows I am not Lord God & Thankful for יהוה Breath The Holy being the One who convicts of sin. As a human being, I cannot choose what ideas you really want to believe (or really love the most): really is your choice what ideas to believe plus what you really want to love most.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Observant Jews say Lord (Adonai) for God's Holy Name: YHWH יְהוָ֥ה so Jewish audience of Sermon on the Mount understood Jewish Rabbi Jesus: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord God, Lord God, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23 (LEB with God)
@Bill_Coley There is NO indication in the text what "observant Jews" understood from Jesus' use of the title "Lord," and there is likewise NO indication anywhere in the Gospels, save perhaps John 20.28, that when people call Jesus "Lord," they mean they believe he is God. I think it's clear that "Lord" in reference to Jesus means master, leader, or one to whose authority the speaker of the term has submitted. I respect your personal faith claim about "Lord" meaning God, but in my view, there is no textual support for your claim.
By age 30, observant Jews had heard Lord (Adonai , אָדוֹן , κύριος) spoken for יהוה over 170,000 times in weekly Synagogue Scripture readings so Jewish authors writing to audience familiar with Jewish culture did not feel compelled for Lord יהוה textual elaboration (common knowledge).
To me, worship in Matthew 8:2 expresses belief of Lord יהוה Jesus as leper was healed (if leper did not believe Jesus is Lord יהוה , then unbelief would have prevented miraculous healing). In Matthew 14:22-33, what was Peter thinking when he said Lord ? (command me to come out on the water & Lord, save me) followed by worship: So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!” Matthew 14:33 (LEB).
In Mark 7:24-30, what was Gentile (Non-Jewish) woman thinking when she said "Lord, even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs" ? To me, master of spiritual realm is God as the woman's request was for a demon to be expelled from her daughter, which was granted. Another Lord יהוה Jesus example is Luke 10:17 use of "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" (Acts 19:11-20 describes what happens to human beings trying to exorcise demons using Holy name of Lord יהוה Jesus without personal belief in Lord יהוה Jesus). Luke 13:22-30 has another Lord יהוה Jesus example: “Lord יהוה, are there only a few who are saved?” (narrow door to the Kingdom of God)
@Bill_Coley For example, in Mark 7.21-23, Jesus' first declarations after his reference to some of those who call out "Lord! Lord!" say that only those who do the will of his Father - not Jesus' own will - will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and that he (Jesus) never knew those who made such a cry because they broke God's laws, not Jesus' laws. The scene reported in Matthew 7 contains no indication that Jesus believes himself to be God... among other reasons, in my view, because he doesn't believe himself to be God.
Mark 7:20-23 (LEB) And he said, “What comes out of a person, that defiles a person. For from within, from the heart of people, come evil plans, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries, acts of greed, malicious deeds, deceit, licentiousness, envy, abusive speech, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a person.” does not match the following comments about the Kingdom of Heaven scene in Matthew 7 and personal unbelief ideas (reasons). If Jesus is not God, how would Jesus know God's laws were broken by those wanting to enter the Kingdom of Heaven ?
If The Father & Jesus are יהוה (One God), what words from יהוה Jesus would you like to hear: "Well done, good and faithful servant" OR "I do not know you" (followed by deportation from Lord God's Holy Heaven to place prepared for our spiritual enemy) ? {my earnest desire is imitating God to live a life of love doing the will of יהוה with hope of hearing "Well done, good and faithful servant" while on my knees worshipping יהוה }
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus While remembering John 12:44-50, What parable words did Jesus speak: his own OR what Lord God The Father commanded Jesus to speak ?
@Bill_Coley I claimed that Jesus, not God, spoke the parable in question. When you re-read the passage, I think you will agree with my conclusion.
The John 12 passage is yet another example of Jesus' making a clear distinction between himself and God:...
Amazing image of One God shared by יהוה Jesus & יהוה Father so seeing/believing יהוה Jesus is also seeing/believing יהוה Father. Intense intimacy of The Will & The Word would want every word spoken by The Word of God to enable believing hearers to obey & do The Will of God (so the Word of Christ can dwell richly in human beings believing Lord יהוה Jesus, enabling יהוה Father's will to be lovingly done that glorifies יהוה ).
Noted no comment about Jesus saying in John 12:46-48 (LEB): I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
@Bill_Coley I don't read the John 12 passage to be a claim of inspiration or infallibility of EVERYTHING Jesus said. For example, when he told people he had to go to the bathroom, I don't think he would have claimed God told him to say that. His claim was that he spoke God's commands fully and accurately, just as he was commanded by the one who sent him.
Nothing in Scripture indicates יהוה Jesus spoke/did anything of his own volition (without being/doing יהוה Father's will, includes 12 years of age).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Current culture has many instant gratification opportunities so several hundred years seems unreasonable (only understandable in hindsight). Thankful for Jeremiah being an obedient prophet who shared what Lord God commanded (without understanding the when of Lord God's plan).
@Bill_Coley The consequences of Jeremiah's word to his original audience is not a matter of "instant gratification," but rather prophetic relevance. Did the prophet believe he was writing a word relevant to the people to whom he first sent his work, or did he believe he was writing to readers in a distant century? I claim that both the prophet and his original readers believed he wrote to those to whom he first sent his work.
We strongly disagree about what prophets believed about the timing fulfillment of God's prophetic words. Enough "Thus says the Lord ..." (with real יהוה authority) happened during each prophet's time to establish/verify truthfulness of יהוה words spoken thru them, which is consistent with 2 Peter 1:16-21 (LEB) For we did not make known to you the power and coming of our Lord יהוה Jesus Christ by following ingeniously concocted myths, but by being eyewitnesses of that one’s majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when a voice such as this was brought to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we ourselves heard this voice brought from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain, and we possess as more reliable the prophetic word, to which you do well if you pay attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, recognizing this above all, that every prophecy of scripture does not come about from one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
@Bill_Coley Psalm 110.1 does NOT say "the Lord God said to my Lord God." Using your preferred LEB translation, which is consistent with other translations: "A declaration of Yahweh to my lord, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.'" That is, the first "lord" is Jahweh, but the second "lord" is a human being.
If 'the second "lord" is a human being' idea is valid, please explain Jewish religious leaders (gnat straining experts) not asking Jesus any questions after Jesus asked: If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?” And no one was able to answer him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:45-46 (LEB). Jewish religious leaders heard Adonai (אָדוֹן , κύριος , Lord) for יהוה over 6,800 times every year in weekly Synagogue scripture readings plus memorizing every word of Torah had thousands more Adonai (אָדוֹן , κύριος , Lord) for יהוה
@Bill_Coley In Acts 2.36 Peter says God "made" Jesus "Lord." Peter does NOT say God made Jesus "Lord God." You're welcome to believe God made Jesus Lord God, but that's your personal faith claim, and NOT what the text says.
@Bill_Coley Again I ask: How could one who was already Lord (if translated as "God") be "made" to be "Lord" (i.e. God)? And how could one whom God "made" also be God? Did Peter's audience expect their "messiah" to be God or someone God raised up from among them?
After resurrection, ascension, & humble Holy sacrifice completion, יהוה Father "made" Jesus יהוה Lord of Righteousness at God's right hand.
Therefore let all the house of Israel know beyond a doubt, that God has made him both Lord יהוה and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified!” Acts 2.36
@Bill_Coley 1. You refer here to a different text from the one I referenced. I referred to Matthew 9.34. You refer to John 8.48. Do you have a comment on the verse I asked you about?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus John 8:49-51 has Lord God's loving rebuke as does Matthew 12:22-32 while Matthew 9:34 has footnote J in New Revised Standard Version (NRSV): "other ancient authorities lack this verse" (also mentioned in Metzger's Textual Commentary). Jewish religious leaders swallowed a camel instead of believing Jesus is Lord God. These Pharisees had two choices to explain many miracles: believe demonic lies OR Believe & Praise Lord God.
@Bill_Coley Your reference to the NRSV footnote on Matthew 9.34 contributes to your evasion of the question I asked (FWIW, in a brief search of other translations, I couldn't find another one that reports the absence of the verse in some manuscripts) whose central thrust was the logic YOU employed in a previous post (see final response in this post).
Puzzled by evasion labeling (& distracting post referencing) of my comment on Matthew 9:34 "Jewish religious leaders swallowed a camel instead of believing Jesus is Lord God. These Pharisees had two choices to explain many miracles: believe demonic lies OR Believe & Praise Lord God."
FWIW: Bruce Manning Metzger, United Bible Societies, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies’ Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.) (London; New York: United Bible Societies, 1994), 20–21.
Matthew 9:34 include verse {B}
It is difficult to decide whether this verse should be included in the text or placed in the apparatus. According to several commentators (e. g. Allen, Klostermann, Zahn) the words are an intrusion here from 12:24 or from Lk 11:15. On the other hand, the evidence for the shorter text is exclusively Western and relatively meager. Moreover, the passage seems to be needed to prepare the reader for 10:25. A majority of the Committee was impressed by the preponderant weight of the witnesses that include the verse.
Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition Notes (Biblical Studies Press, 2006), Mt 9:33–34.
Notes for 9:34
58 sn See the note on Pharisees in 3:7.
59 tn Or “prince.”
60 tc Although codex Cantabrigiensis (D), along with a few other Western versional and patristic witnesses, lacks this verse, virtually all other witnesses have it. The Western text’s reputation for free alterations as well as the heightened climax if v. 33 concludes this pericope explains why these witnesses omitted the verse.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Refusal to believe Jewish Rabbi Jesus is Lord God (for explaining many miracles) resulted in Jewish religious leaders believing demonic deception (swallowing a camel), which publically violated Lord God's commandment against bearing false witness. Sad for Jewish religious leaders who heard & understood deity words of Jesus, but believed those words cursed Lord God so they believed Jesus deserved death. Hardness of Jewish religious leader hearts against truly loving Lord God violated the most important command in Scripture: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (daily repetition of words had become vain & worthless) plus deceptive belief showed later as Sanhedrin commanded not to teach in the name of Jesus in Acts 4:5-22
@Bill_Coley Your original argument was that religious leaders could not have spoken falsely about Jesus because any violation of the commandment not to bear false witness would have been "abhorrent" to them. USING THAT SPECIFIC LOGIC, I then asked you if you also argued that they could not have spoken falsely about Jesus when they claimed Jesus was "empowered by the prince of demons" (Matthew 9.34). If I read your response here correctly, you claim religious leaders could have been, and in fact were mistaken in at least one of their beliefs about Jesus (that he was empowered by the prince of demons). USING THAT SPECIFIC LOGIC, I contend you must allow that religious leaders could ALSO have been mistaken if they believed Jesus claimed to be God.
Puzzled by distracting post references (to replies with lots of comments) while my reply on January 1, 2021 copied & quoted comments. My original argument of outwardly appearing righteous mentioned murder commandment (context of Sanhedrin seeking death penalty for Jesus):
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Remember these Jewish religious leaders outwardly appeared righteous, which included obeying the Ten Commandments. If they were mistaken, then they violated God's commandment against murder (so publically would appear to be unrighteous, sinners, which was abhorant to them).
"USING THAT SPECIFIC LOGIC" appears to be a contemporary example trying to strain out a gnat with purpose of sowing doubt. Appears study result is inordinate emphasis of "Yea, hath God said ?" with accumulated doubt about God's word being consistently truthful. Sanhedrin members heard & understood deity words of יהוה Jesus, but believed those words cursed Lord יהוה God so believed Jesus deserved death for blasphemy, which included mocking Jesus: In the same way also the chief priests, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking him, saying, “He saved others; he is not able to save himself! He is the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him! Matthew 27:41-42 (LEB) When the tomb was empty, these Sanhedrin members refused to believe Jesus is Lord יהוה so they bribed Roman soldiers to lie & live (Roman penalty for soldiers allowing Roman seal to be broken was death). Scripture does not document any Sanhedrin member who believed Jesus deserved death for blasphemy ever repenting & believing Jesus is Lord יהוה (documents unbelief command not to teach in the name of Jesus in Acts 4:5-22)
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
To me, Psalm 2:6 (LEB) “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” is truly consistent with Isaiah 14:13-15 (LEB) And you yourself said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise up my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit on the mountain of assembly on the summit of Zaphon; I will ascend to the high places of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit.
When you revisit the context of the Isaiah 14 passage, I predict you will rescind your claim of its consistency with Psalm 2.6, since Isaiah 14.3 makes clear that the one described in vv.13-15 is the king of Babylon, one...
- who "has been destroyed" (Isaiah 14.4)
- whose "wicked power" God has crushed (Isaiah 14.5)
- who "held the nations in (his) angry grip" (Isaiah 14.6)
- who has been "cut down" (Isaiah 14.8)
- whose "might and power" have been buried with him (Isaiah 14.11)
The verses you quoted are reported by the prophet as what the king of Babylon had said to himself (Isaiah 14.13). In my view, those verses are not in any way consistent with Psalm 2.6.
Please provide Scripture reference(s) for 'In Psalm 2, "God's royal son" is clearly an Israelite or Judean King, ...' OR 'God's "son" in the psalm is a king who reigned centuries before Jesus.'
I provided such verses in my previous post:
- Psalm 2.6: God says, "I have placed my chosen king on the throne in Jerusalem, on my holy mountain," an action which has clearly already taken place when the psalmist wrote. When did the psalmist write? During the time of Judean and Israelite kings.
- Psalm 2.7: The king referenced in Psalm 2.6 says, "The LORD has said to me, 'You are my son. Today I have become your Father.'" Hence, the king is clearly the "son."
יהוה Jesus was being King on God's throne upon God's holy mountain before humbly choosing to leave Heaven for miraculous zygote cell (male physical body with The Word of God spritually) inside Mary that provides "today" context for יהוה Father & יהוה Son fulfilling Psalm 2:7 physically.
You're welcome to that application of the Psalm, but your interpretation is clearly not what the Psalmist has in mind.
Psalm 2:10-12 (LEB with יהוה added for Son per verse 7) So then, O kings, be wise. Be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve יהוה Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the יהוה Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
There is no textual support for adding יהוה before "Son" in those verses. Once again you import your personal faith perspective into a biblical text.
If The Father & Jesus are יהוה (One God), would יהוה Son Jesus be righteously angry with idea 'the one in the Psalm who is "angry" is not God' ?
"IF..." perhaps. But I reject the premise.
My Scriptural idea implication questions are styled after your logical idea implication questions with challenging thought hypothesis:
No. That particular "Scriptural idea implication question" was a direct violation of CD forums' expectations in that it pertained to a fellow poster, NOT to his or her ideas. Remember the subject of the righteous anger in your question was the person who "teaches Scriptures while not believing Jesus is Lord God," NOT the teaching itself.
An idea purpose for this thread is personal encounter with יהוה Jesus, which is happening for me during prayer & study for replies. I am a human being who knows I am not Lord God & Thankful for יהוה Breath The Holy being the One who convicts of sin. As a human being, I cannot choose what ideas you really want to believe (or really love the most): really is your choice what ideas to believe plus what you really want to love most.
I didn't ask you to agree or disagree with the ideas I believe. I asked you to comment on the logic of the following claim: Just because I BELIEVE that you claim to be God doesn't necessarily mean that you actually DO claim to be God. I might be mistaken in my belief.
I've made this request of you multiple times and in multiple ways; not once have you fulfilled it directly. It's a simple request - comment on the logic of the italicized statement made in the previous paragraph - which I make of you yet again now.
By age 30, observant Jews had heard Lord (Adonai , אָדוֹן , κύριος) spoken for יהוה over 170,000 times in weekly Synagogue Scripture readings so Jewish authors writing to audience familiar with Jewish culture did not feel compelled for Lord יהוה textual elaboration (common knowledge).
To me, worship in Matthew 8:2 expresses belief of Lord יהוה Jesus as leper was healed (if leper did not believe Jesus is Lord יהוה , then unbelief would have prevented miraculous healing). In Matthew 14:22-33, what was Peter thinking when he said Lord ? (command me to come out on the water & Lord, save me) followed by worship: So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!” Matthew 14:33 (LEB).
In Matthew 8, there is no indication that the man's healing depends on his belief that Jesus is God; rather, his healing depends on his belief that Jesus can heal him, a belief he expresses when he says to Jesus, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean." In addition, the man gives no indication in the scene that he believes Jesus is God.
In Mark 7:24-30, what was Gentile (Non-Jewish) woman thinking when she said "Lord, even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs" ? To me, master of spiritual realm is God as the woman's request was for a demon to be expelled from her daughter, which was granted.
There is no indication in the Mark 7 text that the woman believes Jesus is God.
Another Lord יהוה Jesus example is Luke 10:17 use of "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" (Acts 19:11-20 describes what happens to human beings trying to exorcise demons using Holy name of Lord יהוה Jesus without personal belief in Lord יהוה Jesus). Luke 13:22-30 has another Lord יהוה Jesus example: “Lord יהוה, are there only a few who are saved?” (narrow door to the Kingdom of God)
There is no indication in either text that Jesus is God. Your addition of the word "יהוה" after "Lord" is not supported by either text, but is another importation of your personal faith claim into texts.
Mark 7:20-23 (LEB) And he said, “What comes out of a person, that defiles a person. For from within, from the heart of people, come evil plans, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries, acts of greed, malicious deeds, deceit, licentiousness, envy, abusive speech, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a person.” does not match the following comments about the Kingdom of Heaven scene in Matthew 7 and personal unbelief ideas (reasons). If Jesus is not God, how would Jesus know God's laws were broken by those wanting to enter the Kingdom of Heaven ?
How did Moses know what God wanted and didn't want? How did the Old Testament prophets know what God wanted and didn't want? God inspired them. Jesus knew what God wanted because his relationship with God equipped him to receive inspiration from God.
If The Father & Jesus are יהוה (One God), what words from יהוה Jesus would you like to hear: "Well done, good and faithful servant" OR "I do not know you" (followed by deportation from Lord God's Holy Heaven to place prepared for our spiritual enemy) ? {my earnest desire is imitating God to live a life of love doing the will of יהוה with hope of hearing "Well done, good and faithful servant" while on my knees worshipping יהוה }
The Matthew 7 scene in which Jesus reports the sad fate of "many" who cry to him "Lord! Lord!" contains no suggestion that Jesus thinks he is God. Instead, the fate of those who cry out "Lord! Lord!" is sealed because they did not "actually do the will of (Jesus') Father in heaven." (Matthew 7.21)
Amazing image of One God shared by יהוה Jesus & יהוה Father so seeing/believing יהוה Jesus is also seeing/believing יהוה Father. Intense intimacy of The Will & The Word would want every word spoken by The Word of God to enable believing hearers to obey & do The Will of God (so the Word of Christ can dwell richly in human beings believing Lord יהוה Jesus, enabling יהוה Father's will to be lovingly done that glorifies יהוה ).
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim. Once again, however, your insertion of the word "יהוה" before "Jesus" is not supported by the text, and represents the importation of your personal faith into the biblical text.
Noted no comment about Jesus saying in John 12:46-48 (LEB): I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
In my view, there is nothing in these verses relevant to our discussion for me to comment on. Nothing in the John 12 text suggests that Jesus believes himself to be God.
Nothing in Scripture indicates יהוה Jesus spoke/did anything of his own volition (without being/doing יהוה Father's will, includes 12 years of age).
As I indicated previously, I don't believe Jesus went to the bathroom as an expression of God's will. (And once again, your addition of the word "יהוה" before Jesus is not supported by the biblical text, but rather reflects your personal faith claim.)
We strongly disagree about what prophets believed about the timing fulfillment of God's prophetic words.
My claim in this respect has NOT been about the fulfillment of prophecies per se, but rather about the time frames in which the prophets and their original audiences believed such fulfillment would occur. My understanding of Scripture is that the prophets had largely near-term fulfillment in mind when they wrote, and that New Testament writers saw longer-term - even final - fulfillment of those prophecies in the person of Jesus. That is, I'm NOT arguing that Jesus didn't fulfill prophecies. I'm arguing that the prophets who communicated those prophecies had shorter-term fulfillments in mind.
If 'the second "lord" is a human being' idea is valid, please explain Jewish religious leaders (gnat straining experts) not asking Jesus any questions after Jesus asked: If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?” And no one was able to answer him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:45-46 (LEB). Jewish religious leaders heard Adonai (אָדוֹן , κύριος , Lord) for יהוה over 6,800 times every year in weekly Synagogue scripture readings plus memorizing every word of Torah had thousands more Adonai (אָדוֹן , κύριος , Lord) for יהוה
The "second 'lord' is a human" claim is valid IF the LEB, your preferred translation, and others are valid. First, the text does NOT say what you claimed it says. It does NOT say "the Lord God said to my Lord God." Such, yet again, reflects the importation of your personal faith into the text. Second, the clear meaning of the Psalm 2 text is that God is speaking to a human king (God's "anointed" in Psalm 2.2).
After resurrection, ascension, & humble Holy sacrifice completion, יהוה Father "made" Jesus יהוה Lord of Righteousness at God's right hand.
With yet another advisory that your insertion of the word "יהוה" before Jesus is not supported by the text, I note a change in your argument. Previously, you argued that "Lord" means "God," which, via substitution into Peter's words in Acts, means you believe God made Jesus God - which obviously makes no sense. Now you argue that God made Jesus "Lord of Righteousness." Though I'm not sure where you get the "of righteousness" phrase, I essentially agree with your claim: God made Jesus Lord. But that's NOT to say Jesus is God. It's to say Jesus is Lord.
Puzzled by evasion labeling (& distracting post referencing) of my comment on Matthew 9:34 "Jewish religious leaders swallowed a camel instead of believing Jesus is Lord God. These Pharisees had two choices to explain many miracles: believe demonic lies OR Believe & Praise Lord God."
....
Puzzled by distracting post references (to replies with lots of comments) while my reply on January 1, 2021 copied & quoted comments. My original argument of outwardly appearing righteous mentioned murder commandment (context of Sanhedrin seeking death penalty for Jesus):
Puzzled that you're puzzled by this. Your argument was that the Pharisees would not have made a false claim of divinity against Jesus because to do so would have violated (in public) the commandment against bearing false witness. They also made their claim that Jesus was empowered by the devil in public, so presumably, you believe the same hesitance to speak falsely would have existed for them. SO, do you therefore argue that they must have been correct when in public they claimed Jesus was empowered by the devil?
"USING THAT SPECIFIC LOGIC" appears to be a contemporary example trying to strain out a gnat with purpose of sowing doubt. Appears study result is inordinate emphasis of "Yea, hath God said ?" with accumulated doubt about God's word being consistently truthful.
No. It is exactly what it declares itself to be: The implementation of YOUR logic to form questions for you to address and, sadly, evade. PLEASE ADDRESS THIS DIRECTLY: When religious leaders claimed Jesus was empowered by the devil (Matthew 9.34), were they correct? Yes or No, please.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus To me, Psalm 2:6 (LEB) “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” is truly consistent with Isaiah 14:13-15 (LEB) And you yourself said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise up my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit on the mountain of assembly on the summit of Zaphon; I will ascend to the high places of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit.
@Bill_Coley When you revisit the context of the Isaiah 14 passage, I predict you will rescind your claim of its consistency with Psalm 2.6, since Isaiah 14.3 makes clear that the one described in vv.13-15 is the king of Babylon, one...
@Bill_Coley The verses you quoted are reported by the prophet as what the king of Babylon had said to himself (Isaiah 14.13). In my view, those verses are not in any way consistent with Psalm 2.6.
Logos Basic Search of <Is14.12> INTERSECTS {Headword Lucifer} finds 42 articles in my Logos library, which includes Jewish Encyclopedia:
LUCIFER (Φωσφόρος): Septuagint translation of “Helel [read “Helal”] ben Shaḥar” (= “the brilliant one,” “son of the morning”), name of the day, or morning, star, to whose mythical fate that of the King of Babylon is compared in the prophetic vision (Isa. 14:12–14). It is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star; and Gunkel (“Schöpfung und Chaos,” pp. 132–134) is undoubtedly correct when he holds that it represents a Babylonian or Hebrew star-myth similar to the Greek legend of Phaethon. The brilliancy of the morning star, which eclipses all other stars, but is not seen during the night, may easily have given rise to a myth such as was told of Ethana and Zu: he was led by his pride to strive for the highest seat among the star-gods on the northern mountain of the gods (comp. Ezek. 28:14; Ps. 48:3 [A.V. 2]), but was hurled down by the supreme ruler of the Babylonian Olympus. Stars were regarded throughout antiquity as living celestial beings (Job 38:7). ...
Isidore Singer, ed., The Jewish Encyclopedia: A Descriptive Record of the History, Religion, Literature, and Customs of the Jewish People from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, 12 Volumes (New York; London: Funk & Wagnalls, 1901–1906), 204.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Please provide Scripture reference(s) for 'In Psalm 2, "God's royal son" is clearly an Israelite or Judean King, ...' OR 'God's "son" in the psalm is a king who reigned centuries before Jesus.' My Logos Bible search of Son WITHIN 7 WORDS (king,pleased,listen) did not find any Old Covenant verse that clearly matches your idea.
@Bill_Coley I provided such verses in my previous post:
* Psalm 2.6: God says, "I have placed my chosen king on the throne in Jerusalem, on my holy mountain," an action which has clearly already taken place when the psalmist wrote. When did the psalmist write? During the time of Judean and Israelite kings.
* Psalm 2.7: The king referenced in Psalm 2.6 says, "The LORD has said , 'You are my son. Today I have become your Father.'" Hence, the king is clearly the "son."
Clearly Psalm 2:6-7 King has a name, please provide scripture verse(s) naming the chosen King, whom God יהוה The Father calls My יהוה Son. My previous reply found God Speaking in Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, Luke 9:35, & 2 Peter 1:17 plus a human being, having a demon legion, who said: “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!” in Luke 8:28 (LEB) so humans heard God יהוה The Father's voice from heaven plus 4,500+ demons (Wikipedia has Roman legion size of 4,500 soldiers at time of Jesus).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus יהוה Jesus was being King on God's throne upon God's holy mountain before humbly choosing to leave Heaven for miraculous zygote cell (male physical body with The Word of God spritually) inside Mary that provides "today" context for יהוה Father & יהוה Son fulfilling Psalm 2:7 physically.
@Bill_Coley You're welcome to that application of the Psalm, but your interpretation is clearly not what the Psalmist has in mind.
We clearly disagree (while my interpretation provides plausible "today" explanation for planned יהוה Father & יהוה Son relationship of Will & Word)
@Bill_Coley ... meaning the "chosen king" is already on the throne when the psalmist creates the psalm. It is that king, according to the psalmist, who reports God's declaration that he (the king) is God's son, and "today" (i.e. when he is on the throne) God has become his Father" (Psalm 2.7).
How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ? (previous 'meaning' reply lacks plausibility). At the time of Psalmist, the only Israelite King possibilites are Saul and David, never called "My Son" by יהוה Father. David was a human being after God's heart.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Psalm 2:10-12 (LEB with יהוה added for Son per verse 7) So then, O kings, be wise. Be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve יהוה Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the יהוה Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
@Bill_Coley There is no textual support for adding יהוה before "Son" in those verses. Once again you import your personal faith perspective into a biblical text.
Textual inferrence: The Son from Psalm 2:7 is יהוה Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; (so The Son inherits יהוה name) & Psalm 2:11 יהוה Yahweh
@Bill_Coley I asked you to comment on the logic of the following claim: Just because I BELIEVE that you claim to be God doesn't necessarily mean that you actually DO claim to be God. I might be mistaken in my belief.
@Bill_Coley I've made this request of you multiple times and in multiple ways; not once have you fulfilled it directly. It's a simple request - comment on the logic of the italicized statement made in the previous paragraph - which I make of you yet again now.
Simple answer is not knowing what you would BELIEVE about a deity claim: reject premise, no indication, might be mistaken, exactly, clearly distinct, ... Question did not accomplish purpose of sowing doubt about Jewish religious leaders understanding Jewish deity claims of Jesus, which they believed cursed יהוה Lord so Jesus ought to die (those Jewish Sanhedrin members never believed Jesus is יהוה Lord, as Jesus said in Luke 22:67). Impossible for me is premise "you claim to be God" as my thoughts remind me of my sinful nature & past confessed sins with my repentance, who is daily Thankful for God's Grace & Mercy plus Thankful for sunrise & sunset reminders of being redeemed by the Holy blood of יהוה Son Jesus :)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus By age 30, observant Jews had heard Lord (Adonai , אָדוֹן , κύριος) spoken for יהוה over 170,000 times in weekly Synagogue Scripture readings so Jewish authors writing to audience familiar with Jewish culture did not feel compelled for Lord יהוה textual elaboration (common knowledge).
To me, worship in Matthew 8:2 expresses belief of Lord יהוה Jesus as leper was healed (if leper did not believe Jesus is Lord יהוה , then unbelief would have prevented miraculous healing). In Matthew 14:22-33, what was Peter thinking when he said Lord ? (command me to come out on the water & Lord, save me) followed by worship: So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!” Matthew 14:33 (LEB).
@Bill_Coley In Matthew 8, there is no indication that the man's healing depends on his belief that Jesus is God; rather, his healing depends on his belief that Jesus can heal him, a belief he expresses when he says to Jesus, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean." In addition, the man gives no indication in the scene that he believes Jesus is God.
To me, Worshipping יהוה Lord declares יהוה is God of me (true worship expresses my belief in my God). Matthew 8:1-4 does not mention Jewish leper saying: "Unclean, Unclean" as verbal warning for others to stay away while approaching Jesus to worship (declaring his personal belief in Jesus being יהוה Lord), followed by trustworthy request, which Jesus willingly answered for miraculous cleaning. Noticed no comment about Peter.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In Mark 7:24-30, what was Gentile (Non-Jewish) woman thinking when she said "Lord, even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs" ? To me, master of spiritual realm is God as the woman's request was for a demon to be expelled from her daughter, which was granted.
@Bill_Coley There is no indication in the Mark 7 text that the woman believes Jesus is God.
Gentile woman expressed great faith in her humble reply to Jesus, which was granted by יהוה Lord God. Humanly suspect Gentile woman knew Jewish meaning of יהוה Lord as Gentile woman went into a Jewish house to request Jewish Rabbi Jesus to expel demon out of her daughter.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Another Lord יהוה Jesus example is Luke 10:17 use of "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!" (Acts 19:11-20 describes what happens to human beings trying to exorcise demons using Holy name of Lord יהוה Jesus without personal belief in Lord יהוה Jesus). Luke 13:22-30 has another Lord יהוה Jesus example: “Lord יהוה, are there only a few who are saved?” (narrow door to the Kingdom of God)
@Bill_Coley There is no indication in either text that Jesus is God. Your addition of the word "יהוה" after "Lord" is not supported by either text, but is another importation of your personal faith claim into texts.
Addition of "יהוה" after "Lord" is supported by Jewish culture & Old Covenant translation of יהוה as LORD (Hebrew יהוה = Adonai = κύριος = Lord) Logos Bible Search of Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS <Person God> has 6,805 results (23 יהוה lemma's in LHB do not have <Person God> tagging: e.g. Genesis 16:7-11 the angel of יהוה Yahweh, which would be read from Torah scroll as "the angel of Adonai"). FWIW: Bible Search of New Living Translation (NLT) for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS (Lord,O,he,him,the,his,Yahweh,you) has 6,666 results.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Mark 7:20-23 (LEB) And he said, “What comes out of a person, that defiles a person. For from within, from the heart of people, come evil plans, sexual immoralities, thefts, murders, adulteries, acts of greed, malicious deeds, deceit, licentiousness, envy, abusive speech, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a person.” does not match the following comments about the Kingdom of Heaven scene in Matthew 7 and personal unbelief ideas (reasons). If Jesus is not God, how would Jesus know God's laws were broken by those wanting to enter the Kingdom of Heaven ?
@Bill_Coley How did Moses know what God wanted and didn't want? How did the Old Testament prophets know what God wanted and didn't want? God inspired them. Jesus knew what God wanted because his relationship with God equipped him to receive inspiration from God.
Inspiration is an ongoing plausible description about the intense intimacy of יהוה Father (Will) & יהוה Son (Word) that enables humans hearing words from יהוה Son to obey (do) יהוה Father's Will. Hebrews 3:1-6 clearly distinguishes between Moses as יהוה servant and Jesus as יהוה Son.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If The Father & Jesus are יהוה (One God), what words from יהוה Jesus would you like to hear: "Well done, good and faithful servant" OR "I do not know you" (followed by deportation from Lord God's Holy Heaven to place prepared for our spiritual enemy) ? {my earnest desire is imitating God to live a life of love doing the will of יהוה with hope of hearing "Well done, good and faithful servant" while on my knees worshipping יהוה }
@Bill_Coley The Matthew 7 scene in which Jesus reports the sad fate of "many" who cry to him "Lord! Lord!" contains no suggestion that Jesus thinks he is God. Instead, the fate of those who cry out "Lord! Lord!" is sealed because they did not "actually do the will of (Jesus') Father in heaven." (Matthew 7.21)
Jewish Rabbi Jesus is speaking to a Jewish audience using common Jewish usage of LORD = יהוה (consistent with Matthew 28:18 all authority ...).
Concur eternal fate of those crying out "יהוה ! יהוה ! " is sealed because they did not "actually do the will of יהוה Father in heaven." (amazed by what some did while not truly knowing יהוה Father & יהוה Son). Actions reflect personal choices what to love most (beliefs). Also am cognizant of james 3:1 (LEB) Not many should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we will receive a greater judgment.* (or * "greater condemnation")
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Amazing image of One God shared by יהוה Jesus & יהוה Father so seeing/believing יהוה Jesus is also seeing/believing יהוה Father. Intense intimacy of The Will & The Word would want every word spoken by The Word of God to enable believing hearers to obey & do The Will of God (so the Word of Christ can dwell richly in human beings believing Lord יהוה Jesus, enabling יהוה Father's will to be lovingly done that glorifies יהוה ).
@Bill_Coley I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim. Once again, however, your insertion of the word "יהוה" before "Jesus" is not supported by the text, and represents the importation of your personal faith into the biblical text.
My faith believes truth is literally consistent: e.g. Hebrew יהוה = Lord (as translated many thousands of times in Old Covenant + daily Jewish usage)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Noted no comment about Jesus saying in John 12:46-48 (LEB): I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
@Bill_Coley In my view, there is nothing in these verses relevant to our discussion for me to comment on. Nothing in the John 12 text suggests that Jesus believes himself to be God.
John 12:46 is consistent with 1 John 1:5 (LEB) And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light and there is no darkness in him at all. so John 12:46 is a deity expression by Jesus showing belief in being Holy (without sin = light) so Jesus knows His spirit inside human male physical body is not a descendant from dark sin-stained spirit of Adam, but Jesus is Light (God) inside human physical body.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Nothing in Scripture indicates יהוה Jesus spoke/did anything of his own volition (without being/doing יהוה Father's will, includes 12 years of age).
@Bill_Coley As I indicated previously, I don't believe Jesus went to the bathroom as an expression of God's will. (And once again, your addition of the word "יהוה" before Jesus is not supported by the biblical text, but rather reflects your personal faith claim.)
Noticed non-scriptural belief with doubtful validity as God's attention to detail is amazing. (Psalm 2:7 יהוה Son Jesus inherited יהוה Father's Name)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus We strongly disagree about what prophets believed about the timing fulfillment of God's prophetic words.
@Bill_Coley My claim in this respect has NOT been about the fulfillment of prophecies per se, but rather about the time frames in which the prophets and their original audiences believed such fulfillment would occur. My understanding of Scripture is that the prophets had largely near-term fulfillment in mind when they wrote, and that New Testament writers saw longer-term - even final - fulfillment of those prophecies in the person of Jesus. That is, I'm NOT arguing that Jesus didn't fulfill prophecies. I'm arguing that the prophets who communicated those prophecies had shorter-term fulfillments in mind.
When John wrote Revelation, John did not know how long for "I AM coming quickly" return of Lord יהוה Jesus (now approaching 2,000 years).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If 'the second "lord" is a human being' idea is valid, please explain Jewish religious leaders (gnat straining experts) not asking Jesus any questions after Jesus asked: If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?” And no one was able to answer him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:45-46 (LEB). Jewish religious leaders heard Adonai (אָדוֹן , κύριος , Lord) for יהוה over 6,800 times every year in weekly Synagogue scripture readings plus memorizing every word of Torah had thousands more Adonai (אָדוֹן , κύριος , Lord) for יהוה
@Bill_Coley The "second 'lord' is a human" claim is valid IF the LEB, your preferred translation, and others are valid. First, the text does NOT say what you claimed it says. It does NOT say "the Lord God said to my Lord God." Such, yet again, reflects the importation of your personal faith into the text. Second, the clear meaning of the Psalm 2 text is that God is speaking to a human king (God's "anointed" in Psalm 2.2).
Reply reads to me as an affirmation of your personal faith belief while evading (not explaining) historical social reaction of Jewish religious leader silence, who had memorized Torah (where יהוה occurs 1,820 times in the Lexham Hebrew Bible). Jewish Rabbi Jesus asked some questions in Matthew 22:41-46 (LEB) Now while the Pharisees were assembled, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “David’s.” He said to them, “How then does David, by the Spirit, call him ‘Lord,’ saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet” ’? If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?” And no one was able to answer him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask him any more questions.
For Psalm 2:2, what is the name of God's anointed king ? Jewish religious leaders correctly identified God's king of Israel in Matthew 27:42
Logos Bible Search of Lexham Hebrew Bible for <Lemma = lbs/he/אָדוֹן> INTERSECTS <Person God> has 468 results, includes Psalm 2:4 (out of 733 occurrences of Adonai אָדוֹן), which can be compared by searching (<Lemma = lbs/he/אָדוֹן> INTERSECTS <Person God>) OR <Lemma = lbs/he/אָדוֹן>
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus After resurrection, ascension, & humble Holy sacrifice completion, יהוה Father "made" Jesus יהוה Lord of Righteousness at God's right hand.
@Bill_Coley With yet another advisory that your insertion of the word "יהוה" before Jesus is not supported by the text, I note a change in your argument. Previously, you argued that "Lord" means "God," which, via substitution into Peter's words in Acts, means you believe God made Jesus God - which obviously makes no sense. Now you argue that God made Jesus "Lord of Righteousness." Though I'm not sure where you get the "of righteousness" phrase, I essentially agree with your claim: God made Jesus Lord. But that's NOT to say Jesus is God. It's to say Jesus is Lord.
Scripture advisory is Jeremiah 23:6 יהוה Lord naming anointed king יהוה צדקנו (Lord Righteousness We) We is pronoun suffix of Righteousness.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Puzzled by evasion labeling (& distracting post referencing) of my comment on Matthew 9:34 "Jewish religious leaders swallowed a camel instead of believing Jesus is Lord God. These Pharisees had two choices to explain many miracles: believe demonic lies OR Believe & Praise Lord God."
....
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Puzzled by distracting post references (to replies with lots of comments) while my reply on January 1, 2021 copied & quoted comments. My original argument of outwardly appearing righteous mentioned murder commandment (context of Sanhedrin seeking death penalty for Jesus):
@Bill_Coley Puzzled that you're puzzled by this. Your argument was that the Pharisees would not have made a false claim of divinity against Jesus because to do so would have violated (in public) the commandment against bearing false witness. They also made their claim that Jesus was empowered by the devil in public, so presumably, you believe the same hesitance to speak falsely would have existed for them. SO, do you therefore argue that they must have been correct when in public they claimed Jesus was empowered by the devil?
Thankful for your attempt to express my belief, but disappointed by your presumptions not matching my faith belief in literal truth consistency. Puzzle continues as your description of my argument main point (false witness) simply disagrees with my original argument main focus (murder):
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Remember these Jewish religious leaders outwardly appeared righteous, which included obeying the Ten Commandments. If they were mistaken, then they violated God's commandment against murder (so publically would appear to be unrighteous, sinners, which was abhorant to them).
Jewish religious leaders (Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, ...) are an enigmatic mix: two physically assisted with burial of Jesus (tomb & burial cloth), some were close to Kingdom of Heaven (Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-37), those who sinned in public by bearing false witness (Matthew 9:34, Matthew 12:22-32, Mark 3:22-30, Luke 11:14-23, John 8:48-59), and Sanhedrin members who believed Jewish Rabbi Jesus cursed יהוה Lord by His Jewish deity claims so Jesus deserved to die (Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:54-71), which included greater sin (John 19:1-11) per John 19:7 (LEB) The Jews replied to him, “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself out to be the Son of God!” (those Jewish Sanhedrin members never believed Jesus is יהוה Lord per Luke 22:67 yet undeniably understood יהוה Son deity claim by Jesus).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus "USING THAT SPECIFIC LOGIC" appears to be a contemporary example trying to strain out a gnat with purpose of sowing doubt. Appears study result is inordinate emphasis of "Yea, hath God said ?" with accumulated doubt about God's word being consistently truthful.
@Bill_Coley No. It is exactly what it declares itself to be: The implementation of YOUR logic to form questions for you to address and, sadly, evade. PLEASE ADDRESS THIS DIRECTLY: When religious leaders claimed Jesus was empowered by the devil (Matthew 9.34), were they correct? Yes or No, please.
No
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Logos Basic Search of <Is14.12> INTERSECTS {Headword Lucifer} finds 42 articles in my Logos library, which includes Jewish Encyclopedia:
What you quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia made no connection between Isaiah 14.12-14 and Psalm 2.6, in my view because there is no such connection. As I pointed out in my previous post - observations to which you did not directly respond - in their context, Isaiah's comments in Isaiah 14 are about the King of Babylon and therefore are not possibly what you characterized as "truly consistent" with Psalm 2.6.
Clearly Psalm 2:6-7 King has a name, please provide scripture verse(s) naming the chosen King, whom God יהוה The Father calls My יהוה Son.
The fact that the king referenced in Psalm 2 had a name doesn't mean the psalmist had to name him. In fact, references to kings found in the Psalms almost never identify a specific monarch. For example, Psalm 20.9 asks for God's assistance to an unnamed king identified only as "our king." The original readers of the psalmist's work would have known the name of the king to whom he referred.
My previous reply found God Speaking in Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, Luke 9:35, & 2 Peter 1:17 plus a human being, having a demon legion, who said: “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!” in Luke 8:28 (LEB) so humans heard God יהוה The Father's voice from heaven plus 4,500+ demons (Wikipedia has Roman legion size of 4,500 soldiers at time of Jesus).
I don't see relevance of these citations and observations.
We clearly disagree (while my interpretation provides plausible "today" explanation for planned יהוה Father & יהוה Son relationship of Will & Word)
That you rely on nothing more than a claim of plausibility to defend your interpretation of the text in my view supports my claim that your interpretation is the result of the importation of your personal faith claims into the text. The text itself does not support your view.
How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ? (previous 'meaning' reply lacks plausibility). At the time of Psalmist, the only Israelite King possibilites are Saul and David, never called "My Son" by יהוה Father. David was a human being after God's heart.
Here we encounter a difference in the scholarly communities we rely on for our understanding of Scripture. The vast majority of the scholars I rely on have concluded that the Psalms were written, or at least rounded into final form, in the 7th or 6th centuries B.C.E. (Psalm 137, for example, was clearly written during or after the Babylonian exile of the 6th century). Hence, there were several kings for psalm writers to refer to in their works. I'm confident that the scholars you rely on for your understanding of Scripture date the Psalms much earlier in Israel's history.
Textual inferrence: The Son from Psalm 2:7 is יהוה Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; (so The Son inherits יהוה name) & Psalm 2:11 יהוה Yahweh
The text does not say that the son inherits the יהוה name. You are indeed inferring something that's not in the text, but IS part of your personal faith claims.
Simple answer is not knowing what you would BELIEVE about a deity claim: reject premise, no indication, might be mistaken, exactly, clearly distinct, ... Question did not accomplish purpose of sowing doubt about Jewish religious leaders understanding Jewish deity claims of Jesus, which they believed cursed יהוה Lord so Jesus ought to die (those Jewish Sanhedrin members never believed Jesus is יהוה Lord, as Jesus said in Luke 22:67). Impossible for me is premise "you claim to be God" as my thoughts remind me of my sinful nature & past confessed sins with my repentance, who is daily Thankful for God's Grace & Mercy plus Thankful for sunrise & sunset reminders of being redeemed by the Holy blood of יהוה Son Jesus :)
It's almost surreal to me how difficult it's been simply to get you to comment on the logic, NOT the content, of a claim. I'll try another approach.
Comment on the LOGIC of this statement: Just because I SAY something is true doesn't necessarily mean that it actually IS true. Just because I SAY 1+1=17 doesn't mean 1+1 actually IS 17. Is that LOGIC correct? Or do you believe if I SAY something is true, it IS true? If I SAY 1+1=17, then 1+1 actually IS 17?
To me, Worshipping יהוה Lord declares יהוה is God of me (true worship expresses my belief in my God). Matthew 8:1-4 does not mention Jewish leper saying: "Unclean, Unclean" as verbal warning for others to stay away while approaching Jesus to worship (declaring his personal belief in Jesus being יהוה Lord), followed by trustworthy request, which Jesus willingly answered for miraculous cleaning. Noticed no comment about Peter.
Adding "יהוה" before Lord is not supported by the text, and reflects the importation of your personal beliefs into the text.
The text gives no indication that the man believes Jesus is God. Your inference that the absence in Matthew's narrative of the man's cry of "unclean!" declares his personal belief in Jesus as God is another importation of your personal faith into the biblical text. The text itself gives no support to your claim.
Gentile woman expressed great faith in her humble reply to Jesus, which was granted by יהוה Lord God. Humanly suspect Gentile woman knew Jewish meaning of יהוה Lord as Gentile woman went into a Jewish house to request Jewish Rabbi Jesus to expel demon out of her daughter.
Previously, you relied on a claim of plausibility to defend your conclusions about a biblical text. Now you rely on human suspicion. In my view, neither of those defenses counters the reality that the texts in question offer no support for your conclusions.
Addition of "יהוה" after "Lord" is supported by Jewish culture & Old Covenant translation of יהוה as LORD (Hebrew יהוה = Adonai = κύριος = Lord) Logos Bible Search of Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS <Person God> has 6,805 results (23 יהוה lemma's in LHB do not have <Person God> tagging: e.g. Genesis 16:7-11 the angel of יהוה Yahweh, which would be read from Torah scroll as "the angel of Adonai"). FWIW: Bible Search of New Living Translation (NLT) for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS (Lord,O,he,him,the,his,Yahweh,you) has 6,666 results.
My objection is specific to your employment of the word יהוה to refer to Jesus. Such uses are not supported by the biblical text.
Inspiration is an ongoing plausible description about the intense intimacy of יהוה Father (Will) & יהוה Son (Word) that enables humans hearing words from יהוה Son to obey (do) יהוה Father's Will. Hebrews 3:1-6 clearly distinguishes between Moses as יהוה servant and Jesus as יהוה Son.
I don't dispute Jesus' intimacy with God. Neither do I dispute Moses' intimacy given his many occasions in God's presence, speaking directly to, even arguing with, God.
Jewish Rabbi Jesus is speaking to a Jewish audience using common Jewish usage of LORD = יהוה (consistent with Matthew 28:18 all authority ...).
Concur eternal fate of those crying out "יהוה ! יהוה ! " is sealed because they did not "actually do the will of יהוה Father in heaven." (amazed by what some did while not truly knowing יהוה Father & יהוה Son). Actions reflect personal choices what to love most (beliefs). Also am cognizant of james 3:1 (LEB) Not many should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we will receive a greater judgment.* (or * "greater condemnation")
How is your reference to the "not many" who should become teachers relevant to the Mark 7.24-30 text we're discussing here?
My faith believes truth is literally consistent: e.g. Hebrew יהוה = Lord (as translated many thousands of times in Old Covenant + daily Jewish usage)
As I noted previously, I respect and accept this as your personal faith claim, but in my view, your claim is not supported by the biblical text. The text simply does NOT say Jesus is God.
John 12:46 is consistent with 1 John 1:5 (LEB) And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light and there is no darkness in him at all. so John 12:46 is a deity expression by Jesus showing belief in being Holy (without sin = light) so Jesus knows His spirit inside human male physical body is not a descendant from dark sin-stained spirit of Adam, but Jesus is Light (God) inside human physical body.
Jesus told his followers that THEY were "the light of the world" (Matthew 5.14). Does that mean you believe Matthew 5.14 is also consistent with 1 John 1.5, and hence that his followers are also God? I strongly suspect not. Rather, I suspect that you believe as I do that not all references to "light" necessarily refer to God. In my view, such is clearly the case in John 12.46, 1 John 1.5, and Matthew 5.14.
Noticed non-scriptural belief with doubtful validity as God's attention to detail is amazing. (Psalm 2:7 יהוה Son Jesus inherited יהוה Father's Name)
I claimed that God didn't tell Jesus to go to the bathroom. Instead, Jesus went to bathroom in response to natural biological processes. I stand by that claim.
When John wrote Revelation, John did not know how long for "I AM coming quickly" return of Lord יהוה Jesus (now approaching 2,000 years).
Given that Jesus had predicted some in his company would "not taste death until they [saw] the Son of Man's arrival in his kingdom" (Matthew 16.28, ESV), I'm confident John the Revelator had in mind a time frame FAR shorter than 2,000 years when he wrote.
Reply reads to me as an affirmation of your personal faith belief while evading (not explaining) historical social reaction of Jewish religious leader silence, who had memorized Torah (where יהוה occurs 1,820 times in the Lexham Hebrew Bible).
Your reading of my reply is mistaken. It was simply an implementation of Psalm 110.1 as translated by the LEB, YOUR preferred Bible translation, in which Jahweh declares to "my lord" (lower case "l"), referring thereby to a human being.
For Psalm 2:2, what is the name of God's anointed king ? Jewish religious leaders correctly identified God's king of Israel in Matthew 27:42
According to the psalmist, God's anointed one is already on the throne when the psalmist writes (Psalm 2.6), so whatever that king's name, he ruled in the psalmist's time.
Scripture advisory is Jeremiah 23:6 יהוה Lord naming anointed king יהוה צדקנו (Lord Righteousness We) We is pronoun suffix of Righteousness.
The Jeremiah verse does NOT say the one God will raise up will be God. The verse says the name of the one God will raise will remind people that God is their righteousness. The language of the text makes this clear when it quotes God as saying "'For the time is coming,' says the LORD, 'when I will raise up a righteous descendant from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land.'"
There is no indication in text that God will raise up one who is also God. Rather, the text says God will raise up a descendant of David's (ergo, human). Your reading of the passage to mean God will raise up one who also is God reflects your personal faith claims, not the text itself.
Thankful for your attempt to express my belief, but disappointed by your presumptions not matching my faith belief in literal truth consistency. Puzzle continues as your description of my argument main point (false witness) simply disagrees with my original argument main focus (murder):
Your argument was that were religious leaders mistaken in their claims about Jesus' deity they would have "publicly" appeared to be unrighteous by having violated "God's commandment against murder," one of what you called "the Ten Commandments." But ALSO among the Ten Commandments, which you claim religious leaders didn't want to violate - at least not publicly - was the command not to bear false witness. My claim, then, was that if you believe religious leaders didn't want to violate the Ten Commandments because to do so publicly would have been what you called "abhorrent" to them, then you must ALSO believe they didn't want to violate the false witness command just as much as they didn't want to violate the murder command. THEREFORE, my question, USING YOUR LOGIC, was do you claim religious leaders must have been correct when they claimed Jesus was empowered by demons since to bear false witness about Jesus would have violated one of the Ten Commandments, and to do so publicly would have been "abhorrent" to them?
@Bill_Coley PLEASE ADDRESS THIS DIRECTLY: When religious leaders claimed Jesus was empowered by the devil (Matthew 9.34), were they correct? Yes or No, please.
Thank you, though I'm astonished that I had to ask you that simple yes/no question three or four or five different ways (I lost count) before you answered it.
The upshot of your answer is that you believe as I do that it is at least POSSIBLE that the religious leaders could have been mistaken if they believed Jesus had claimed to be God. It is POSSIBLE they were mistaken, that Jesus in fact had not claimed to be God. You and I disagree as to whether he had, of course, but my point is that it is possible the religious leaders were mistaken.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Logos Basic Search of <Is14.12> INTERSECTS {Headword Lucifer} finds 42 articles in my Logos library, which includes Jewish Encyclopedia:
@Bill_Coley What you quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia made no connection between Isaiah 14.12-14 and Psalm 2.6, in my view because there is no such connection. As I pointed out in my previous post - observations to which you did not directly respond - in their context, Isaiah's comments in Isaiah 14 are about the King of Babylon and therefore are not possibly what you characterized as "truly consistent" with Psalm 2.6.
My faith view sees God's Holy Heavenly mountain connection between Psalm 2:6 and Isaiah 14:13-15 (Lucifer's prideful "I" trouble in Heaven), which is compared to the King of Babylon named in Isaiah 14:4 (with focus change to Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 morning star fallen from Heaven).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Clearly Psalm 2:6-7 King has a name, please provide scripture verse(s) naming the chosen King, whom God יהוה The Father calls My יהוה Son.
@Bill_Coley The fact that the king referenced in Psalm 2 had a name doesn't mean the psalmist had to name him. In fact, references to kings found in the Psalms almost never identify a specific monarch. For example, Psalm 20.9 asks for God's assistance to an unnamed king identified only as "our king." The original readers of the psalmist's work would have known the name of the king to whom he referred.
If one commentary is correct about Psalm 20:9 The King = The Messiah (based on Hebrew athnach cantillation marking to identify/separate phrases), then original readers of Psalm 20 would not know The King's name until The Messiah is revealed.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My previous reply found God Speaking in Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, Luke 9:35, & 2 Peter 1:17 plus a human being, having a demon legion, who said: “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!” in Luke 8:28 (LEB) so humans heard God יהוה The Father's voice from heaven plus 4,500+ demons (Wikipedia has Roman legion size of 4,500 soldiers at time of Jesus).
@Bill_Coley I don't see relevance of these citations and observations.
'1+1=17 SAYS' don't want to see Scripture Truth consistency of יהוה Father in heaven & יהוה Son on earth. יהוה Father speaking from Heaven identifed Psalm 2:6-7 King יהוה Son as heard by many human beings. Also a legion of demons (inside a man) identifed Psalm 2:7 יהוה Son.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus We clearly disagree (while my interpretation provides plausible "today" explanation for planned יהוה Father & יהוה Son relationship of Will & Word)
@Bill_Coley That you rely on nothing more than a claim of plausibility to defend your interpretation of the text in my view supports my claim that your interpretation is the result of the importation of your personal faith claims into the text. The text itself does not support your view.
Assertion 'The text itself does not support your view.' SAYS 1+1=17 (while actually discarding/ignoring Scripture Truth for my plausibility claim).
@Bill_Coley ... meaning the "chosen king" is already on the throne when the psalmist creates the psalm. It is that king, according to the psalmist, who reports God's declaration that he (the king) is God's son, and "today" (i.e. when he is on the throne) God has become his Father" (Psalm 2.7).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ? (previous 'meaning' reply lacks plausibility). At the time of Psalmist, the only Israelite King possibilites are Saul and David, never called "My Son" by יהוה Father. David was a human being after God's heart.
@Bill_Coley Here we encounter a difference in the scholarly communities we rely on for our understanding of Scripture. The vast majority of the scholars I rely on have concluded that the Psalms were written, or at least rounded into final form, in the 7th or 6th centuries B.C.E. (Psalm 137, for example, was clearly written during or after the Babylonian exile of the 6th century). Hence, there were several kings for psalm writers to refer to in their works. I'm confident that the scholars you rely on for your understanding of Scripture date the Psalms much earlier in Israel's history.
David is the only author named in 37 of the 41 Psalms in the first book of Psalms & Acts 4:24-25 ascribes Psalm 2 to David so the human being Israelite King possibilities are David & Saul, who were never called "My Son" by יהוה Father. David was a human being after God's heart while Saul failed to fully obey God. Repeating Psalm 2:6-7 question: 'How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ?'
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Textual inferrence: The Son from Psalm 2:7 is יהוה Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; (so The Son inherits יהוה name) & Psalm 2:11 יהוה Yahweh
@Bill_Coley The text does not say that the son inherits the יהוה name. You are indeed inferring something that's not in the text, but IS part of your personal faith claims.
Biblical genealogies "son of" has father's name identifying son (text inferrence). Jesus was called "My Son" by יהוה Father speaking from heaven.
@Bill_Coley Comment on the LOGIC of this statement: Just because I SAY something is true doesn't necessarily mean that it actually IS true. Just because I SAY 1+1=17 doesn't mean 1+1 actually IS 17. Is that LOGIC correct? Or do you believe if I SAY something is true, it IS true? If I SAY 1+1=17, then 1+1 actually IS 17?
While staunchly believing 0=1 (result from many studies), you SAY 1+1=17 that always appears "correct" from your point of view, which includes everyone should staunchly believe like you. Since staunch belief assumption of 0=1 is flawed, you SAY 1+1=17 is logically false (not true = a lie).
FWIW: 0=1 is idea The Word of God (spiritual portion of יהוה) could not be inside a male human physical body. One way for me to express 0=1 idea is: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' Logically false assumption mixes truth about One Eternal Spiritual Being יהוה always existing who designed human spirit, body, & procreation so The Word of God could spiritually be inside one male human physical body, which could be offered as a Holy sacrifice to take away the sin of the world to show יהוה Glory & Love. Human physical body died, but The Word of God continued to spiritually exist (descended into hell). Greatest Joy is יהוה resurrecting human body to complete Holy Love offering for human redemption.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Addition of "יהוה" after "Lord" is supported by Jewish culture & Old Covenant translation of יהוה as LORD (Hebrew יהוה = Adonai = κύριος = Lord) Logos Bible Search of Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS <Person God> has 6,805 results (23 יהוה lemma's in LHB do not have <Person God> tagging: e.g. Genesis 16:7-11 the angel of יהוה Yahweh, which would be read from Torah scroll as "the angel of Adonai"). FWIW: Bible Search of New Living Translation (NLT) for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS (Lord,O,he,him,the,his,Yahweh,you) has 6,666 results.
@Bill_Coley My objection is specific to your employment of the word יהוה to refer to Jesus. Such uses are not supported by the biblical text.
Objection reads to me as you SAY 1+1=17 that simply disagrees with Lord יהוה Truth. Objection and assertion 'Such uses are not supported by the biblical text.' reflects your staunch belief about LORD יהוה being only The Father, does not want to see (believe) Scripture Truth יהוה consistency.
Hebrew יהוה was translated into Greek LXX (Septuagint) as κύριος (Lord) mostly (95 %) & θεὸς (God) sometimes (5 %) so simply substituting Holy Hebrew יהוה name for Lord God => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of יהוה , did not consider being equal with יהוה something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also יהוה exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה , to the glory of יהוה the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (LEB)
Jesus existing in the form of יהוה is truthfully consistent with Jesus experiencing יהוה Glory & Love at יהוה The Father's side before יהוה created the physical realm out of nothing: John 17:5, John 17:24 The form of יהוה was, is, & will be One Spiritual Being God having three distinct voices.
Curious about your thoughts of what was Peter thinking when he said Lord ? (command me to come out on the water & Lord, save me) followed by worship: So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!” Matthew 14:33 (LEB). Context of Matthew 14:22-33 is stormy water that a fisherman like Peter would not want to be in alone since human survival was doubtful at best, yet Jesus was walking on wavy water.
@Bill_Coley The Matthew 7 scene in which Jesus reports the sad fate of "many" who cry to him "Lord! Lord!" contains no suggestion that Jesus thinks he is God. Instead, the fate of those who cry out "Lord! Lord!" is sealed because they did not "actually do the will of (Jesus') Father in heaven." (Matthew 7.21)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jewish Rabbi Jesus is speaking to a Jewish audience using common Jewish usage of LORD = יהוה (consistent with Matthew 28:18 all authority ...).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Concur eternal fate of those crying out "יהוה ! יהוה ! " is sealed because they did not "actually do the will of יהוה Father in heaven." (amazed by what some did while not truly knowing יהוה Father & יהוה Son). Actions reflect personal choices what to love most (beliefs). Also am cognizant of james 3:1 (LEB) Not many should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we will receive a greater judgment.* (or * "greater condemnation")
@Bill_Coley How is your reference to the "not many" who should become teachers relevant to the Mark 7.24-30 text we're discussing here?
Fascinated by Mark 7:24-30 reference in your reply while earlier context was Matthew 7:21-23 that could be expanded to Scripture teachers crying out "יהוה ! יהוה ! " to Jesus: Did we not teach Scripture texts in your name ? (and see lives Holy transformed by those believing Jesus is יהוה Lord)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus John 12:46 is consistent with 1 John 1:5 (LEB) And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light and there is no darkness in him at all. so John 12:46 is a deity expression by Jesus showing belief in being Holy (without sin = light) so Jesus knows His spirit inside human male physical body is not a descendant from dark sin-stained spirit of Adam, but Jesus is Light (God) inside human physical body.
@Bill_Coley Jesus told his followers that THEY were "the light of the world" (Matthew 5.14). Does that mean you believe Matthew 5.14 is also consistent with 1 John 1.5, and hence that his followers are also God? I strongly suspect not. Rather, I suspect that you believe as I do that not all references to "light" necessarily refer to God. In my view, such is clearly the case in John 12.46, 1 John 1.5, and Matthew 5.14.
Concur with 'strongly suspect not' as human being followers of Jesus are not God. "Believe in me" is not in Matthew 5:13-16 (LEB) “You are the salt of the earth. But if salt becomes tasteless, by what will it be made salty? It is good for nothing any longer except to be thrown outside and trampled under foot by people. You are the light of the world. A city located on top of a hill cannot be hidden, nor do they light a lamp and place it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it shines on all those in the house. In the same way let your light shine before people, so that they can see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
"Believes in me" is in John 12:46 (LEB) I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness.
If Jesus is NOT God, then whoever "believes in me" (Jesus) takes away from Loving Lord יהוה God with ALL your heart, ALL your mind, ALL your soul, ALL your strength, which is sinful to Lord יהוה God, who is jealous (really desires every human to freely choose Love Lord יהוה God first).
If Jesus is יהוה Son, then whoever "believes in me" (Jesus) is truthfully consistent with choosing to Love Lord יהוה God first with ALL human has, with promise of no longer remaining in darkness (sin) while believing Jesus is יהוה Son, Lord of RIghteousness for Holy redemption from sin.
Caveat: Lord יהוה God designed human beings with free will to choose what to love most, which enables apostacy: fall away from choosing to Love Lord יהוה God first so previous righteous deeds are not remembered by Lord יהוה God per Ezekiel 18:19-24 & Matthew 7:21-23 (apostacy example is Jewish religious leaders who believed Jesus ought to die for cursing Lord יהוה God while understanding יהוה Son deity claims by Jesus).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Scripture advisory is Jeremiah 23:6 יהוה Lord naming anointed king יהוה צדקנו (Lord Righteousness We) We is pronoun suffix of Righteousness.
@Bill_Coley The Jeremiah verse does NOT say the one God will raise up will be God. The verse says the name of the one God will raise will remind people that God is their righteousness. The language of the text makes this clear when it quotes God as saying "'For the time is coming,' says the LORD, 'when I will raise up a righteous descendant from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land.'"
Jeremiah 23:6 (NLT) And this will be his name: ‘The יהוה Lord Is Our Righteousness.’ ... (so Jeremiah 23:5 descendant is יהוה in a male human body)
@Bill_Coley There is no indication in text that God will raise up one who is also God. Rather, the text says God will raise up a descendant of David's (ergo, human). Your reading of the passage to mean God will raise up one who also is God reflects your personal faith claims, not the text itself.
יהוה Lord declares in Jeremiah 23:6 (LEB) ... and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Lord is our righteousness.’ so my Scriptural text claim יהוה Lord naming anointed king יהוה צדקנו (Lord Righteousness We) is Truthfully correct. First person plural pronoun suffix of Righteousness was translated into English as Oure in 1382 by Wycliffe while pop-up in Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) shows "We", consistent with John 10:30 The Father and I (We) are One יהוה (from my faith point of view). Logos Bible Search of LHB for (<Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> NOT INTERSECTS <Person God>) OR <Lemma = lbs/he/צֶ֫דֶק> does not find a single human being named יהוה nor צֶ֫דֶק so simply disagrees with idea 'There is no indication in text that God will raise up one who is also God.' (SAYS 1+1=17 to me as your personal faith claim, does not want to see Scripture Truth יהוה consistency).
Bible search in LHB for <Lemma = lbs/he/צֶ֫דֶק> included Psalm 23:3 (LEB) He restores my life. He leads me in correct paths for the sake of his name.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Thankful for your attempt to express my belief, but disappointed by your presumptions not matching my faith belief in literal truth consistency. Puzzle continues as your description of my argument main point (false witness) simply disagrees with my original argument main focus (murder):
@Bill_Coley Your argument was that were religious leaders mistaken in their claims about Jesus' deity they would have "publicly" appeared to be unrighteous by having violated "God's commandment against murder," one of what you called "the Ten Commandments." But ALSO among the Ten Commandments, which you claim religious leaders didn't want to violate - at least not publicly - was the command not to bear false witness. My claim, then, was that if you believe religious leaders didn't want to violate the Ten Commandments because to do so publicly would have been what you called "abhorrent" to them, then you must ALSO believe they didn't want to violate the false witness command just as much as they didn't want to violate the murder command. THEREFORE, my question, USING YOUR LOGIC, was do you claim religious leaders must have been correct when they claimed Jesus was empowered by demons since to bear false witness about Jesus would have violated one of the Ten Commandments, and to do so publicly would have been "abhorrent" to them?
Puzzled by ad hominem reasoning (you, you, ...) & "Your argument" link when quoting previous reply could have included my argument text:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Remember these Jewish religious leaders outwardly appeared righteous, which included obeying the Ten Commandments. If they were mistaken, then they violated God's commandment against murder (so publically would appear to be unrighteous, sinners, which was abhorant to them).
Noticed no comment about Jewish religious leader enigmatic mix in my previous reply:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jewish religious leaders (Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, ...) are an enigmatic mix: two physically assisted with burial of Jesus (tomb & burial cloth), some were close to Kingdom of Heaven (Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-37), those who sinned in public by bearing false witness (Matthew 9:34, Matthew 12:22-32, Mark 3:22-30, Luke 11:14-23, John 8:48-59), and Sanhedrin members who believed Jewish Rabbi Jesus cursed יהוה Lord by His Jewish deity claims so Jesus deserved to die (Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:54-71), which included greater sin (John 19:1-11) per John 19:7 (LEB) The Jews replied to him, “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself out to be the Son of God!” (those Jewish Sanhedrin members never believed Jesus is יהוה Lord per Luke 22:67 yet undeniably understood יהוה Son deity claim by Jesus).
Those who sinned in public by bearing false witness seems like they SAY 1+1=17 (swallowed a modern 18-wheeler camel) while they believed they were correct (according to their own words) so humanly doubt they even recognized their own false witness commandment violation when speaking to Jesus: The Jews answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” John 8:48 (LEB)
Hindsight 20/20 is my earlier argument could have included John 19:7 as Jewish religious leaders needed a legal reason for Roman execution.
@Bill_Coley The upshot of your answer is that you believe as I do that it is at least POSSIBLE that the religious leaders could have been mistaken if they believed Jesus had claimed to be God. It is POSSIBLE they were mistaken, that Jesus in fact had not claimed to be God. You and I disagree as to whether he had, of course, but my point is that it is possible the religious leaders were mistaken.
We simply disagree about answer upshot. My doubts about Jewish religious leaders are different: Did they recognize false witness commandment violation when they refused to believe Jesus is יהוה Lord ? (they swallowed a camel of sin when trying to explain miracles done by יהוה Lord God)
What happened during years of Scripture memorizing & studying along with learning Jewish laws & traditions so Jesus could say observe what the Jewish religious leaders tell (say), but do not do as they do in Matthew 23:1-3 (those Jewish religious leaders had become hypocrites who had chosen not to Love יהוה Lord God first any more so their daily saying of Deuteronomy 6:4-9 had become vain repetition, really not know יהוה Lord God personally any more while impressively knowing about יהוה Lord God's Teachings, Torah).
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
My faith view sees God's Holy Heavenly mountain connection between Psalm 2:6 and Isaiah 14:13-15 (Lucifer's prideful "I" trouble in Heaven), which is compared to the King of Babylon named in Isaiah 14:4 (with focus change to Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 morning star fallen from Heaven).
I claim that your response here reflects yet more importation of your personal faith views into the biblical text:
- In its Psalm 2 context, God's "holy mountain" refers simply to the city of Jerusalem. (Psalm 2.6)
- In its Isaiah 14 context, the "shining star" who has "been thrown down to earth" refers simply the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14.4), the one whom the prophet quotes as having said to himself, "I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High." (Isaiah 14.13-14)
- That is, in the texts, there is no thematic textual connection between the Psalm 2 and Isaiah 14 passages.
If one commentary is correct about Psalm 20:9 The King = The Messiah (based on Hebrew athnach cantillation marking to identify/separate phrases), then original readers of Psalm 20 would not know The King's name until The Messiah is revealed.
One commentary's view of Psalm 20.9 does not change the fact that in the context of the entire Psalm, the "king" referenced in that verse is simply whoever ruled at the time of the psalm's creation:
- Psalm 20.1: "In times of trouble, may the Lord answer your cry" and "keep you safe from all harm."
- Psalm 20.2: "May he send you help... and strengthen you"
- Psalm 20.3: "May [God] remember all your gifts and look favorably upon your burnt offerings."
- Psalm 20.5: "May we shout for joy when we hear of your victory and raise a victory banner in the name of our God."
- Psalm 20.9: "Give victory to our king, O LORD! Answer our cry for help."
Those (and many others in the psalm) are descriptions of a currently-reigning king and the people he leads, not a future one.
'1+1=17 SAYS' don't want to see Scripture Truth consistency of יהוה Father in heaven & יהוה Son on earth. יהוה Father speaking from Heaven identifed Psalm 2:6-7 King יהוה Son as heard by many human beings. Also a legion of demons (inside a man) identifed Psalm 2:7 יהוה Son.
And yet again you import your personal theology into the biblical text by placing the word יהוה in front of "Son" when the text doesn't support your doing so. You're of course welcome to do so, but not without my calling attention to your action.
Assertion 'The text itself does not support your view.' SAYS 1+1=17 (while actually discarding/ignoring Scripture Truth for my plausibility claim).
You're welcome to your interpretations of texts and to assert their plausibility. But the texts themselves do not support your interpretations; they simply do not say what you claim they say.
David is the only author named in 37 of the 41 Psalms in the first book of Psalms & Acts 4:24-25 ascribes Psalm 2 to David so the human being Israelite King possibilities are David & Saul, who were never called "My Son" by יהוה Father. David was a human being after God's heart while Saul failed to fully obey God. Repeating Psalm 2:6-7 question: 'How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ?'
Again, you and I turn to different communities of scholars when it comes to the dating of the Psalms.
As for Psalm 2.6-7, notice how Paul uses the verse in Acts 13. He appropriates the verse and declares that God has "today" become Jesus' Father. Does Paul mean that yesterday God wasn't Jesus' Father? Clearly not. An NLT interpreter's note reports the verse can also be translated, "Today I reveal you as my son." That is, today the special connection between God and the object of God's attention - between God and the king; between God and Jesus - becomes clear. [c.f. Romans 1.4 - Paul says Jesus was "shown to be the Son of God" when God raised him from the dead." Paul clearly believes Jesus was the Son of God before the resurrection, but that relationship became known in the resurrection.]
Biblical genealogies "son of" has father's name identifying son (text inferrence). Jesus was called "My Son" by יהוה Father speaking from heaven.
Plausibility, suspicion, and now text "inference" to support your view (of course, a biblical text can't infer anything; you and I, its readers, can draw inferences from it, but a Bible text can't. Bible writers can imply things, but their texts can't infer them).
Neither biblical genealogies nor the voice from heaven's declaration that Jesus was God's son supports your placement of the word "יהוה" before "Son."
While staunchly believing 0=1 (result from many studies), you SAY 1+1=17 that always appears "correct" from your point of view, which includes everyone should staunchly believe like you. Since staunch belief assumption of 0=1 is flawed, you SAY 1+1=17 is logically false (not true = a lie).
FWIW: 0=1 is idea The Word of God (spiritual portion of יהוה) could not be inside a male human physical body. One way for me to express 0=1 idea is: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' Logically false assumption mixes truth about One Eternal Spiritual Being יהוה always existing who designed human spirit, body, & procreation so The Word of God could spiritually be inside one male human physical body, which could be offered as a Holy sacrifice to take away the sin of the world to show יהוה Glory & Love. Human physical body died, but The Word of God continued to spiritually exist (descended into hell). Greatest Joy is יהוה resurrecting human body to complete Holy Love offering for human redemption.
It's time to move on from the question, "Is it possible the religious leaders were mistaken if they believed Jesus had claimed to be God." That - and nothing more - was what this was all about. I've tried a half dozen times to prompt you to state the obvious: OF COURSE it's possible that the religious leaders were mistaken if they believed Jesus had claimed to be God.
I tried. I failed. I move on.
Objection reads to me as you SAY 1+1=17 that simply disagrees with Lord יהוה Truth. Objection and assertion 'Such uses are not supported by the biblical text.' reflects your staunch belief about LORD יהוה being only The Father, does not want to see (believe) Scripture Truth יהוה consistency.
In this case, my claim reflects my reading of the biblical text.
Hebrew יהוה was translated into Greek LXX (Septuagint) as κύριος (Lord) mostly (95 %) & θεὸς (God) sometimes (5 %) so simply substituting Holy Hebrew יהוה name for Lord God => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of יהוה , did not consider being equal with יהוה something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also יהוה exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה , to the glory of יהוה the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (LEB)
In the Philippians text, Paul does NOT call Jesus by the same name he calls God.
- Philippians 2.9 - God is "θεός" ("theos")
- Philippians 2.11 - Jesus is "κύριος" ("kyrios")
That's in the same passage - in fact, in consecutive verses - Paul uses different words to refer to God and Jesus. Clearly, in my view, Paul means Jesus is "Lord" NOT in the way God is God.
Jesus existing in the form of יהוה is truthfully consistent with Jesus experiencing יהוה Glory & Love at יהוה The Father's side before יהוה created the physical realm out of nothing: John 17:5, John 17:24 The form of יהוה was, is, & will be One Spiritual Being God having three distinct voices.
We've been down this road dozens of times. We disagree.
Curious about your thoughts of what was Peter thinking when he said Lord ? (command me to come out on the water & Lord, save me) followed by worship: So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!” Matthew 14:33 (LEB). Context of Matthew 14:22-33 is stormy water that a fisherman like Peter would not want to be in alone since human survival was doubtful at best, yet Jesus was walking on wavy water.
Peter means "Lord" in the same way nearly everyone who calls Jesus "Lord" means it. For Peter, Jesus is a person of authority and leadership, one to whom Peter has granted authority.
Fascinated by Mark 7:24-30 reference in your reply while earlier context was Matthew 7:21-23 that could be expanded to Scripture teachers crying out "יהוה ! יהוה ! " to Jesus: Did we not teach Scripture texts in your name ? (and see lives Holy transformed by those believing Jesus is יהוה Lord)
Your previous query as to my "thoughts of Lord God Jesus being righteously angry with one who teaches Scriptures while not believing Jesus is Lord God" reared its annoying and inappropriate head in my spirit when I read your invocation of James 3.1, and so I asked about it.
If Jesus is NOT God, then whoever "believes in me" (Jesus) takes away from Loving Lord יהוה God with ALL your heart, ALL your mind, ALL your soul, ALL your strength, which is sinful to Lord יהוה God, who is jealous (really desires every human to freely choose Love Lord יהוה God first).
If Jesus is יהוה Son, then whoever "believes in me" (Jesus) is truthfully consistent with choosing to Love Lord יהוה God first with ALL human has, with promise of no longer remaining in darkness (sin) while believing Jesus is יהוה Son, Lord of RIghteousness for Holy redemption from sin.
No. The text to which I think you refer here is John 12.44-50 ("Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.... ") In the passage, Jesus makes clear distinctions between himself and God:
- John 12.44: God is the one who sent Jesus. Sender and sent are not the same.
- John 12.49: Jesus does not speak on his own authority, but rather the authority God gave him, authority which includes commandments as to what to say. One who was God did not speak on his own authority?
- John 12.50: God's commandment, not his own, is eternal life. Jesus says what God has told him to say. One who was God needed to be told what to say... by God?
Those are not distinctions one who believed himself to be God would make.
BTW, what does Jesus mean when he says when people see him they see the one who sent him? That his connection to God is so great, his life displays the fullness of God (cf. Colossians 1.19).
Caveat: Lord יהוה God designed human beings with free will to choose what to love most, which enables apostacy: fall away from choosing to Love Lord יהוה God first so previous righteous deeds are not remembered by Lord יהוה God per Ezekiel 18:19-24 & Matthew 7:21-23 (apostacy example is Jewish religious leaders who believed Jesus ought to die for cursing Lord יהוה God while understanding יהוה Son deity claims by Jesus).
Jesus made no deity claims.
Jeremiah 23:6 (NLT) And this will be his name: ‘The יהוה Lord Is Our Righteousness.’ ... (so Jeremiah 23:5 descendant is יהוה in a male human body)
That's not what the text says.
יהוה Lord declares in Jeremiah 23:6 (LEB) ... and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Lord is our righteousness.’ so my Scriptural text claim יהוה Lord naming anointed king יהוה צדקנו (Lord Righteousness We) is Truthfully correct. First person plural pronoun suffix of Righteousness was translated into English as Oure in 1382 by Wycliffe while pop-up in Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) shows "We", consistent with John 10:30 The Father and I (We) are One יהוה (from my faith point of view).
Notice your word choice: "(from my faith point of view)." That's the language of faith perspective importation. You're welcome to such a practice (which we all do, of course), but in my view you should acknowledge when you do so, especially when the biblical text doesn't actually say what your faith claims declares it to say, as is often the case in your posts.
Logos Bible Search of LHB for (<Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> NOT INTERSECTS <Person God>) OR <Lemma = lbs/he/צֶ֫דֶק> does not find a single human being named יהוה nor צֶ֫דֶק so simply disagrees with idea 'There is no indication in text that God will raise up one who is also God.' (SAYS 1+1=17 to me as your personal faith claim, does not want to see Scripture Truth יהוה consistency).
No. I read the text and ask, what does the text say? In this case, the text does not say what you say it says.
Puzzled by ad hominem reasoning (you, you, ...) & "Your argument" link when quoting previous reply could have included my argument text:
Puzzled as to how you could be puzzled. There was nothing ad hominem about my analysis of your argument regarding the two pharasaic conclusions (that Jesus claimed to be God and that Jesus was powered by demons). Ad hominem is about the person ("You are a XXXXX." "She is XXXX."). My post was about your argument. If condition A leads you to conclusion B, I claimed, then you must also believe that condition C will lead you to conclusion D, which in reality is analogous to conclusion B. Yes, I used the pronoun "you," but only to identify as yours the arguments that were the subject of my analysis.
Noticed no comment about Jewish religious leader enigmatic mix in my previous reply:
I don't feel obligated to respond to every piece of your posts.
Your "enigmatic mix" paragraph didn't make any observations to which I felt compelled to respond. You seemed to say the religious leaders got some things right about Jesus and some things wrong, but one of the things they got right about him was that he claimed to be God. You're welcome to those views.
Those who sinned in public by bearing false witness seems like they SAY 1+1=17 (swallowed a modern 18-wheeler camel) while they believed they were correct (according to their own words) so humanly doubt they even recognized their own false witness commandment violation when speaking to Jesus: The Jews answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” John 8:48 (LEB)
Hindsight 20/20 is my earlier argument could have included John 19:7 as Jewish religious leaders needed a legal reason for Roman execution.
We simply disagree about answer upshot. My doubts about Jewish religious leaders are different: Did they recognize false witness commandment violation when they refused to believe Jesus is יהוה Lord ? (they swallowed a camel of sin when trying to explain miracles done by יהוה Lord God)
What happened during years of Scripture memorizing & studying along with learning Jewish laws & traditions so Jesus could say observe what the Jewish religious leaders tell (say), but do not do as they do in Matthew 23:1-3 (those Jewish religious leaders had become hypocrites who had chosen not to Love יהוה Lord God first any more so their daily saying of Deuteronomy 6:4-9 had become vain repetition, really not know יהוה Lord God personally any more while impressively knowing about יהוה Lord God's Teachings, Torah).
As I noted above, I've moved on from this fruitless and frustrating issue.
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@Bill_Coley ... meaning the "chosen king" is already on the throne when the psalmist creates the psalm. It is that king, according to the psalmist, who reports God's declaration that he (the king) is God's son, and "today" (i.e. when he is on the throne) God has become his Father" (Psalm 2.7).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus David is the only author named in 37 of the 41 Psalms in the first book of Psalms & Acts 4:24-25 ascribes Psalm 2 to David so the human being Israelite King possibilities are David & Saul, who were never called "My Son" by יהוה Father. David was a human being after God's heart while Saul failed to fully obey God. Repeating Psalm 2:6-7 question: 'How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ?'
@Bill_Coley Again, you and I turn to different communities of scholars when it comes to the dating of the Psalms.
Puzzled by "dating of the Psalms" distraction when Scripture Acts 4:24-25 simply ascribes Psalm 2 authorship to David (does not matter when Psalms collection was finalized). A commentary reminded me about first book of Psalms authorship, which included Acts 4:24-25 about Psalm 2.
@Bill_Coley As for Psalm 2.6-7, notice how Paul uses the verse in Acts 13. He appropriates the verse and declares that God has "today" become Jesus' Father. Does Paul mean that yesterday God wasn't Jesus' Father? Clearly not. An NLT interpreter's note reports the verse can also be translated, "Today I reveal you as my son." That is, today the special connection between God and the object of God's attention - between God and the king; between God and Jesus - becomes clear. [c.f. Romans 1.4 - Paul says Jesus was "shown to be the Son of God" when God raised him from the dead." Paul clearly believes Jesus was the Son of God before the resurrection, but that relationship became known in the resurrection.]
My reply on January 9 about "today" is consistent with Paul's Jewish exhortation in a Jewish Synagogue that quoted LXX snippet of Psalm 2:7
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus יהוה Jesus was being King on God's throne upon God's holy mountain before humbly choosing to leave Heaven for miraculous zygote cell (male physical body with The Word of God spritually) inside Mary that provides "today" context for יהוה Father & יהוה Son fulfilling Psalm 2:7 physically.
Acts 13 Jewish exhortation included four prophetic quotes (after beginning with Jewish history summary), but does not provide your direct answer to: 'How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ?' to explain your earlier meaning about Psalm 2:7, which has three "chosen king" possibilities: יהוה or human beings David (a man after heart of יהוה) or Saul (who disobeyed יהוה).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My faith view sees God's Holy Heavenly mountain connection between Psalm 2:6 and Isaiah 14:13-15 (Lucifer's prideful "I" trouble in Heaven), which is compared to the King of Babylon named in Isaiah 14:4 (with focus change to Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 morning star fallen from Heaven).
@Bill_Coley I claim that your response here reflects yet more importation of your personal faith views into the biblical text:
@Bill_Coley In its Psalm 2 context, God's "holy mountain" refers simply to the city of Jerusalem. (Psalm 2.6)
Where on earth is evidence of The Throne for יהוה on God's Holy mountain ? (2 Chronicles 3:1-2 in 4th year of reign, King Solomon began building a Temple for יהוה in Jerusalem, but that Temple did not have The Throne for יהוה while having the Ark of יהוה Covenant in the Holy of Holies)
@Bill_Coley In its Isaiah 14 context, the "shining star" who has "been thrown down to earth" refers simply the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14.4), the one whom the prophet quotes as having said to himself, "I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High." (Isaiah 14.13-14)
What kind of created being was the king of Babylon ? (human being born on earth, who has "been thrown down to earth" seems to SAY '1+1=17')
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus '1+1=17 SAYS' don't want to see Scripture Truth consistency of יהוה Father in heaven & יהוה Son on earth. יהוה Father speaking from Heaven identified Psalm 2:6-7 King יהוה Son as heard by many human beings. Also a legion of demons (inside a man) identified Psalm 2:7 יהוה Son.
@Bill_Coley And yet again you import your personal theology into the biblical text by placing the word יהוה in front of "Son" when the text doesn't support your doing so. You're of course welcome to do so, but not without my calling attention to your action.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Assertion 'The text itself does not support your view.' SAYS 1+1=17 (while actually discarding/ignoring Scripture Truth for my plausibility claim).
@Bill_Coley You're welcome to your interpretations of texts and to assert their plausibility. But the texts themselves do not support your interpretations; they simply do not say what you claim they say.
Fantastic appeal to authority is the idea "But the texts themselves do not support your interpretations; they simply do not say what you claim they say." that really reflects your personal choice what to believe most (accumulated doubt about יהוה Jesus over years of studying snippets), which authoritatively does not want to see literal truth יהוה consistency (so my textual יהוה plausibility claims appear unbelieveable to you).
FWIW: Logos 9.2 Bible Search for <Ps2> finds Ac4.26, Ac13.33, Pp2.12, He1.5, He5.5, Rv2.27, Rv11.18, Rv12.5, & Rv19.15 cross references in The Complete Jewish Bible (while some other translations have many more cross references to Psalm 2).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If one commentary is correct about Psalm 20:9 The King = The Messiah (based on Hebrew athnach cantillation marking to identify/separate phrases), then original readers of Psalm 20 would not know The King's name until The Messiah is revealed.
@Bill_Coley One commentary's view of Psalm 20.9 does not change the fact that in the context of the entire Psalm, the "king" referenced in that verse is simply whoever ruled at the time of the psalm's creation:
* Psalm 20.1: "In times of trouble, may the Lord answer your cry" and "keep you safe from all harm."
* Psalm 20.2: "May he send you help... and strengthen you"
* Psalm 20.3: "May [God] remember all your gifts and look favorably upon your burnt offerings."
* Psalm 20.5: "May we shout for joy when we hear of your victory and raise a victory banner in the name of our God."
* Psalm 20.9: "Give victory to our king, O LORD! Answer our cry for help."
@Bill_Coley Those (and many others in the psalm) are descriptions of a currently-reigning king and the people he leads, not a future one.
Psalm 20 was written by David so currently-reigning king could be יהוה or human beings David (after heart of יהוה) or Saul (who disobeyed יהוה).
Psalm 20:2 (LEB) May he send you help from the sanctuary, and from Zion may he sustain you. reads to me as יהוה sending help from His Holy sanctuary in Heaven as David's son took 7 years to build a Temple on earth in Zion per 1 Kings 6:38
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Caveat: Lord יהוה God designed human beings with free will to choose what to love most, which enables apostacy: fall away from choosing to Love Lord יהוה God first so previous righteous deeds are not remembered by Lord יהוה God per Ezekiel 18:19-24 & Matthew 7:21-23 (apostacy example is Jewish religious leaders who believed Jesus ought to die for cursing Lord יהוה God while understanding יהוה Son deity claims by Jesus).
@Bill_Coley Jesus made no deity claims.
Another appeal to an unnamed authority is your personal faith belief idea "Jesus made no deity claims." (appears authoritatively correct for your faith belief that Jesus is NOT God), but simply cannot explain sin of Jewish religious leaders seeking Roman execution of Jesus (in all the Gospels, especially John 19:7) nor the many יהוה claims by Jesus. Your faith willfully does not want to see & believe literal יהוה consistency that is truly in Scripture, which reminded me of Matthew 10:33 (LEB) "... whoever denies me before people, I also will deny him before my Father who is in heaven."
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jeremiah 23:6 (NLT) And this will be his name: ‘The יהוה Lord Is Our Righteousness.’ ... (so Jeremiah 23:5 descendant is יהוה in a male human body)
@Bill_Coley That's not what the text says.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus יהוה Lord declares in Jeremiah 23:6 (LEB) ... and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Lord is our righteousness.’ so my Scriptural text claim יהוה Lord naming anointed king יהוה צדקנו (Lord Righteousness We) is Truthfully correct. First person plural pronoun suffix of Righteousness was translated into English as Oure in 1382 by Wycliffe while pop-up in Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) shows "We", consistent with John 10:30 The Father and I (We) are One יהוה (from my faith point of view).
@Bill_Coley Notice your word choice: "(from my faith point of view)." That's the language of faith perspective importation. You're welcome to such a practice (which we all do, of course), but in my view you should acknowledge when you do so, especially when the biblical text doesn't actually say what your faith claims declares it to say, as is often the case in your posts.
Looking in Lexham Hebrew Bible at Jeremiah 23:5-6 finds יהוה naming יהוה צדקנו that simply disagrees with your faith idea "That's not what the text says." (lacks your faith perspective qualifier in appeal to an unnamed authority while my authority is יהוה inspired original language text).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Curious about your thoughts of what was Peter thinking when he said Lord ? (command me to come out on the water & Lord, save me) followed by worship: So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!” Matthew 14:33 (LEB). Context of Matthew 14:22-33 is stormy water that a fisherman like Peter would not want to be in alone since human survival was doubtful at best, yet Jesus was walking on wavy water.
@Bill_Coley Peter means "Lord" in the same way nearly everyone who calls Jesus "Lord" means it. For Peter, Jesus is a person of authority and leadership, one to whom Peter has granted authority.
Why worship a person of authority and leadership as the Son of יהוה God ? What authority has physical ability to walk on stormy, wavy water ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus "Believes in me" is in John 12:46 (LEB) I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is NOT God, then whoever "believes in me" (Jesus) takes away from Loving Lord יהוה God with ALL your heart, ALL your mind, ALL your soul, ALL your strength, which is sinful to Lord יהוה God, who is jealous (really desires every human to freely choose Love Lord יהוה God first).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is יהוה Son, then whoever "believes in me" (Jesus) is truthfully consistent with choosing to Love Lord יהוה God first with ALL human has, with promise of no longer remaining in darkness (sin) while believing Jesus is יהוה Son, Lord of RIghteousness for Holy redemption from sin.
@Bill_Coley No. The text to which I think you refer here is John 12.44-50 ("Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.... ") In the passage, Jesus makes clear distinctions between himself and God:
* John 12.44: God is the one who sent Jesus. Sender and sent are not the same.
* John 12.49: Jesus does not speak on his own authority, but rather the authority God gave him, authority which includes commandments as to what to say. One who was God did not speak on his own authority?
* John 12.50: God's commandment, not his own, is eternal life. Jesus says what God has told him to say. One who was God needed to be told what to say... by God?
@Bill_Coley Those are not distinctions one who believed himself to be God would make.
Believing in Jesus as יהוה Son is also believing in יהוה Father as One יהוה God. Human idea 'Sender and sent are not the same.' SAYS '1+1=17' showing your personal faith belief (via debating tactic of appealing to authority), which does not want to see literal truth יהוה consistency.
John 12:47-48 (LEB) And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Ongoing inspired intense intimacy between יהוה Son (Word) & יהוה Father (Will) enables human beings choosing to hear יהוה Son words (voice) to do the Will of יהוה Father that glorifies יהוה. Words from יהוה Father spoken through יהוה Jesus provide basis for יהוה Holy RIghteous judgment.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jesus existing in the form of יהוה is truthfully consistent with Jesus experiencing יהוה Glory & Love at יהוה The Father's side before יהוה created the physical realm out of nothing: John 17:5, John 17:24 The form of יהוה was, is, & will be One Spiritual Being God having three distinct voices.
@Bill_Coley We've been down this road dozens of times. We disagree.
Concur we disagree while noting lack of plausible meaning for John 17:5 & John 17:24 from you & @Wolfgang (not believable = not plausible)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Hebrew יהוה was translated into Greek LXX (Septuagint) as κύριος (Lord) mostly (95 %) & θεὸς (God) sometimes (5 %) so simply substituting Holy Hebrew יהוה name for Lord God => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of יהוה , did not consider being equal with יהוה something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also יהוה exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה , to the glory of יהוה the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (LEB)
@Bill_Coley In the Philippians text, Paul does NOT call Jesus by the same name he calls God.
* Philippians 2.9 - God is "θεός" ("theos")
* Philippians 2.11 - Jesus is "κύριος" ("kyrios")
@Bill_Coley That's in the same passage - in fact, in consecutive verses - Paul uses different words to refer to God and Jesus. Clearly, in my view, Paul means Jesus is "Lord" NOT in the way God is God.
Looking at Philippians 2:5-11 in "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" shows one sentence as does SBL Greek NT: Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of יהוה (θεοῦ => of θεός), did not consider being equal with יהוה (θεῷ => with θεός) something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also יהוה (ὁ θεὸς => The God) exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה (κύριος) , to the glory of יהוה (θεοῦ => of θεός) the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (LEB with Hebrew & Greek) so Paul qualitatively described Jesus: θεός (form & equal) & κύριος (Lord) choosing humility.
@Bill_Coley BTW, what does Jesus mean when he says when people see him they see the one who sent him? That his connection to God is so great, his life displays the fullness of God (cf. Colossians 1.19).
יהוה connection is consistent with Psalm 2:6-7 along with Acts 13.33 (LEB) this promise God has fulfilled to our children by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have fathered you.’ where fathered translates γεγέννηκά = γεννάω verb in perfect tense (completed action in past time with ongoing result), active, indicative, first person, singular (gloss of γεννάω is 'to become the parent of, to father'). Colossians 1:9-20 in "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" & SBL Greek NT shows one sentence having many clauses. Kingdom of the יהוה Son in Colossians 1:13 is consistent with Psalms 2:6-7 & Jeremiah 23:5-6 (Lord Righteousness We)
@Bill_Coley It's time to move on from the question, "Is it possible the religious leaders were mistaken if they believed Jesus had claimed to be God." That - and nothing more - was what this was all about. I've tried a half dozen times to prompt you to state the obvious: OF COURSE it's possible that the religious leaders were mistaken if they believed Jesus had claimed to be God.
@Bill_Coley I tried. I failed. I move on.
Noticed believed used again to describe Jewish religious leader deity claim reaction that disagrees with Luke 22:67 showing failure from my point of view. Hence have expanded my description of Jewish Sanhedrin members => who believed Jesus cursed יהוה Lord God with unmistakeable יהוה deity claims so Jesus deserved to die as they said in John 19:7 so obviously we disagree about what they believed. FWIW: humanly not know how many Jewish Sanhedrin members were missing from illegal proceedings at night and follow-up "legal" trial after sunrise for blasphemy conviction.
Observation: some prompting questions had multiple premises yet began with "Do you ..." so expected answer was Yes or No (illogical from my perspective). Hence left "Do you ..." questions unanswered while directly replying about the premises. Question style reminded me of John 8:48
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What happened during years of Scripture memorizing & studying along with learning Jewish laws & traditions so Jesus could say observe what the Jewish religious leaders tell (say), but do not do as they do in Matthew 23:1-3 (those Jewish religious leaders had become hypocrites who had chosen not to Love יהוה Lord God first any more so their daily saying of Deuteronomy 6:4-9 had become vain repetition, really not know יהוה Lord God personally any more while impressively knowing about יהוה Lord God's Teachings, Torah).
@Bill_Coley As I noted above, I've moved on from this fruitless and frustrating issue.
Moving on evades speculation about what happened to Jewish religious leaders so they became knowledgeable hypocrites per Matthew 23:1-3 (pondering what happened during Jewish religious studies & appearing righteous plus James 3:1 terrifies & warns me to guard my heart to Love ALL of יהוה Lord God with ALL of me as choosing apostacy sin can really result in eternal separation from Holy & Righteous Love of יהוה Lord God)
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Puzzled by "dating of the Psalms" distraction when Scripture Acts 4:24-25 simply ascribes Psalm 2 authorship to David (does not matter when Psalms collection was finalized). A commentary reminded me about first book of Psalms authorship, which included Acts 4:24-25 about Psalm 2.
My observation was not a "distraction" at all. There in fact IS a significant community of biblical scholars who believe that some or perhaps all of the Psalms were not written by David, contrary to the tradition voiced by the believers in their Acts 4 prayer. I'm confident those believers accurately conveyed what they had been taught, and had no reason to believe the davidic authorship tradition might not be correct.
Yet another occasion when you claim consistency rather than content as support for your views. In this instance, consistency does nothing to explain how Paul used the Psalm 2 verse in Acts 13, wherein he believes the occasion of God's raising Jesus from the dead is the "today" referenced in Psalm 2 (cf. Romans 1.4).
Acts 13 Jewish exhortation included four prophetic quotes (after beginning with Jewish history summary), but does not provide your direct answer to: 'How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ?' to explain your earlier meaning about Psalm 2:7, which has three "chosen king" possibilities: יהוה or human beings David (a man after heart of יהוה) or Saul (who disobeyed יהוה).
I didn't cite Acts 13 to explain how the king referenced in Psalm 2 became God's son. I cited Acts 13 to indicate the various meanings the word "today" can have.
In Psalm 2, it is the occasion of God's selection of the king to the throne (Psalm 2.6) that is the "today" referenced in Psalm 2.7. To the king who speaks in v.7, God's elevation of him to the throne means that he (the king) has in effect become God's "son" and God has become his "Father." In such a context, "today" doesn't mean a Thursday or Monday; it means now, in this new circumstance (i.e. that he has become king). Paul made a similar claim in Romans 1.4, when of Jesus he wrote "and he was shown to be the Son of God when he was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is Jesus Christ our Lord." In the new circumstance of the resurrection, Jesus was shown to be the Son of God.
I don't know how to be more direct than that.
Where on earth is evidence of The Throne for יהוה on God's Holy mountain ? (2 Chronicles 3:1-2 in 4th year of reign, King Solomon began building a Temple for יהוה in Jerusalem, but that Temple did not have The Throne for יהוה while having the Ark of יהוה Covenant in the Holy of Holies)
The location of a throne (that is not referenced) in 2 Chronicles 3.1-2 is not relevant to my comment about the in context meaning of the psalmist's reference to God's "holy mountain" in Psalm 2.6. Where in the Psalm 2 text do you find support for your turn to the temple construction reported in 2 Chronicles?
What kind of created being was the king of Babylon ? (human being born on earth, who has "been thrown down to earth" seems to SAY '1+1=17')
In the Isaiah 14 text, the king of Babylon IS the one who is "thrown down to earth." But what does "thrown down to earth" mean in that context? It does NOT mean tossed from spiritual heaven to physical earth. Rather, it means the arrogant king will be humbled, cut down (Isaiah 14.8) from the lofty stature he has ascribed to himself (Isaiah 14.13). It means "those who captured Israel will themselves be captured, and Israel will rule over its enemies." (Isaiah 14.2)
Fantastic appeal to authority is the idea "But the texts themselves do not support your interpretations; they simply do not say what you claim they say." that really reflects your personal choice what to believe most (accumulated doubt about יהוה Jesus over years of studying snippets), which authoritatively does not want to see literal truth יהוה consistency (so my textual יהוה plausibility claims appear unbelieveable to you).
Your characterization and assessment of my personal faith faith journey does not change the fact that the "literal truth" of the texts themselves does not support your "plausible" or "consistent" views.
Psalm 20 was written by David so currently-reigning king could be יהוה or human beings David (after heart of יהוה) or Saul (who disobeyed יהוה).
We disagree.
Another appeal to an unnamed authority is your personal faith belief idea "Jesus made no deity claims." (appears authoritatively correct for your faith belief that Jesus is NOT God), but simply cannot explain sin of Jewish religious leaders seeking Roman execution of Jesus (in all the Gospels, especially John 19:7) nor the many יהוה claims by Jesus. Your faith willfully does not want to see & believe literal יהוה consistency that is truly in Scripture, which reminded me of Matthew 10:33 (LEB) "... whoever denies me before people, I also will deny him before my Father who is in heaven."
Again with a characterization and assessment of my personal faith journey, this time accompanied by a not-so-subtle prediction of my eternal destiny. I pray there comes a day when you no longer feel justified in violating these forums' clear directive to criticize ideas, not people.
We've been down the religious leaders' "sin," and found no common ground. In the past, you've argued that the leaders would NOT have violated the commandment against murder - so they must have been right to use as evidence in Jesus' trial their belief that Jesus had claimed to be God - BUT those same leaders WOULD have violated the command against bearing false witness, so they were wrong when they claimed Jesus was empowered by demons. So the leaders would NEVER have violated the Ten Commandments... unless they violated the Ten Commandments. In my view, that's not a strong argument.
Looking in Lexham Hebrew Bible at Jeremiah 23:5-6 finds יהוה naming יהוה צדקנו that simply disagrees with your faith idea "That's not what the text says." (lacks your faith perspective qualifier in appeal to an unnamed authority while my authority is יהוה inspired original language text).
Regardless of the authority we each cite - "unnamed" or "יהוה inspired" - the Jeremiah 23 text does NOT say that the davidic descendant of v.5 will be God.
Why worship a person of authority and leadership as the Son of יהוה God ? What authority has physical ability to walk on stormy, wavy water ?
The same authority that empowered Jesus to speak, heal, and forgive sins: authority given to him by God. (John 10.17-18; 12.49)
Believing in Jesus as יהוה Son is also believing in יהוה Father as One יהוה God. Human idea 'Sender and sent are not the same.' SAYS '1+1=17' showing your personal faith belief (via debating tactic of appealing to authority), which does not want to see literal truth יהוה consistency.
No. I am showing my personal reliance on the meaning of words.
Ongoing inspired intense intimacy between יהוה Son (Word) & יהוה Father (Will) enables human beings choosing to hear יהוה Son words (voice) to do the Will of יהוה Father that glorifies יהוה. Words from יהוה Father spoken through יהוה Jesus provide basis for יהוה Holy RIghteous judgment.
I agree that there is a "inspired, intense intimacy" between Jesus and God. I do not agree that said intimacy means Jesus was God.
Looking at Philippians 2:5-11 in "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" shows one sentence as does SBL Greek NT: Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of יהוה (θεοῦ => of θεός), did not consider being equal with יהוה (θεῷ => with θεός) something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also יהוה (ὁ θεὸς => The God) exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה (κύριος) , to the glory of יהוה (θεοῦ => of θεός) the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (LEB with Hebrew & Greek) so Paul qualitatively described Jesus: θεός (form & equal) & κύριος (Lord) choosing humility.
In my view, the Philippians 2 text is one of the few compelling pieces of evidence available to your side of this debate (compared with the dozens or scores of compelling pieces available to my side). I acknowledge the challenge the text presents, BUT ALSO note that Paul's words there must be placed in their proper context. In Philippians 2.9, for example, Paul says God elevated Jesus "to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names." One who was God didn't already have the "place of highest honor," but instead had to be elevated to it... by God?
יהוה connection is consistent with Psalm 2:6-7 along with Acts 13.33 (LEB) this promise God has fulfilled to our children by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have fathered you.’ where fathered translates γεγέννηκά = γεννάω verb in perfect tense (completed action in past time with ongoing result), active, indicative, first person, singular (gloss of γεννάω is 'to become the parent of, to father'). Colossians 1:9-20 in "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" & SBL Greek NT shows one sentence having many clauses. Kingdom of the יהוה Son in Colossians 1:13 is consistent with Psalms 2:6-7 & Jeremiah 23:5-6 (Lord Righteousness We)
Yes. God raised Jesus, and in so doing, showed Jesus to be God's son (Romans 1.4). The one raised is not the one who does the raising.
I can't help but notice your ongoing reliance on "consistency" and "plausibility" rather than biblical texts that actually declare what you claim, via nothing more than "plausibility" and "consistency," they mean. The undisputed fact remains: The Bible does NOT say Jesus is God. [And by the way, that IS my personal faith claim... because it's true.]
Moving on evades speculation about what happened to Jewish religious leaders so they became knowledgeable hypocrites per Matthew 23:1-3 (pondering what happened during Jewish religious studies & appearing righteous plus James 3:1 terrifies & warns me to guard my heart to Love ALL of יהוה Lord God with ALL of me as choosing apostacy sin can really result in eternal separation from Holy & Righteous Love of יהוה Lord God)
To me, "moving on" evades further fruitless efforts in search of your direct responses to my questions.
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Puzzling. Phrase "Who was, and is, and is to come" is the meaning of Lord God's most Holy Name YHWH יְהוָ֥ה (spoken by Lord God to Moses in Exodus 3:14).
Exodus 3:14 doesn't say "Who was, and is, and is to come".
This is what Exodus 3:14 says: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
It is said of Jesus that he 'was', and 'is', and 'is to come'.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Acts 1:10-11 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Revelation 1:8 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
The name Jesus does not appear in Revelation 4 while the One on the throne is described. Revelation 5:1 describes the One on the throne holding a scroll. In Revelation 5:7, Who received the scroll from the right hand of the One on the throne ? Who is the One on the throne ?
Please provide scripture reference(s) where Jesus is called "Lord God Almighty". Logos Bible Software search for phrase "Lord God Almighty" found five results in KJV 1900 (verses in Revelation read to me as "Lord God 'Father' Almighty").
Read these scriptures and note how it says Jesus is the First and the Last.
Revelation 2:8 To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life.
Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last,
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Now note that God the Father in the Old Testament is called the First and the Last. The Father and Jesus are one, and 'one' means 'the same'.
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
See that is God the Father speaking in the Old Testament, and it is Jesus not yet known.
Agree The Father (The Will of God) and Jesus (The Word of God) are always One (sharing One image of God) while having distinct voices.
They are not distinct they are one and the same.
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Who spoke from Heaven when Jesus was baptized on earth ? Now after he was baptized, Jesus immediately went up from the water, and behold, the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove coming upon him. And behold, there was a voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:16-17 (LEB)
God the Father in heaven spoke to Jesus when he was baptized on earth.
God the Father came as a son in the flesh at the same time He lived in heaven in unapproachable light.
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Personally believe Jesus was at The Father's side during planning phase(s) for physical world plus One Lord God's nature is truthfully consistent, which includes The Father (The Will of God) and Jesus (The Word of God) and Breath The Holy being One plural unified God: was, is, & will be.
Jesus' body is the body containing the Spirit of God the Father, and Jesus speaks God's Word who spoke everything into existence and through whose body everything was made.
If Jesus is not God the Father, then how many Spirits are you claiming? The Bible says there is one Spirit. God the Father is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is His Spirit, and Jesus Christ is said to be the Spirit. There are not three different Spirits.
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First man Adam refers to Genesis 2:7 while the last Adam is Jesus, who was conceived without sin (dark) nature inherited from first man Adam (created Holy by Lord God's breath of life into dust). The last Adam was miraculously conceived as Holy followed by choosing to remain Holy as our spiritual adversary tried sinful tactics against Jesus that have resulted in all human beings choosing to sin. Jesus is Light (no darkness at all).
Jesus is a life giving Spirit. God the Father is a life giving Spirit.
They are one and the same Spirit.
Jesus is a life giving Spirit, see 1 Corinthians 15:45.
The Spirit gives life; see 2 Corinthians 3:6.
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The seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation begin by describing Jesus, followed by "I know ..." while near end of letter is phrase "ὁ ἔχων οὖς ἀκουσάτω τί τὸ πνεῦμα λέγει ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις" "The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (LEB) that is preceded by "I" declarations. Third person reference to The Spirit also occurs in Revelation 22:17 (personally believe The Spirit is Breath The Holy, which is consistent with 2 Corinthians 3 about The Spirit of The Lord being Breath The Holy). Revelation 14:13 does not say which voice(s) of One plural unified God spoke awesome words about ones obeying Lord God with faith Jesus is Lord God.
It is about Jesus. In addition, I gave you scriptures that say there is only one Spirit, and scripture that says Jesus is the Spirit.
You say the Holy Spirit is the breath, well, Jesus is the Word of God and his words are Spirit.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
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Arian hymn phrase about Jesus: 'ἦν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν' ‘there was when He was not’ simply disagrees with everything being created through Jesus per Colossians 1:9-20 (noticed a semi-colon in the SBLGNT sentence of Colossians 1:9-23 is translated in LEB as a period to end Colossians 1:9-20, which matches the Clause Analysis in the OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament).
Could you post the scriptures out in full? I don't see what you are saying.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Puzzled by "dating of the Psalms" distraction when Scripture Acts 4:24-25 simply ascribes Psalm 2 authorship to David (does not matter when Psalms collection was finalized). A commentary reminded me about first book of Psalms authorship, which included Acts 4:24-25 about Psalm 2.
@Bill_Coley My observation was not a "distraction" at all. There in fact IS a significant community of biblical scholars who believe that some or perhaps all of the Psalms were not written by David, contrary to the tradition voiced by the believers in their Acts 4 prayer. I'm confident those believers accurately conveyed what they had been taught, and had no reason to believe the davidic authorship tradition might not be correct.
Idea about significant community of biblical scholars reads to me as another appeal to an unnamed authority while notably lacking any scripture(s). FWIW: internet search of founder & hell for one Bible & Tract Society finds many videos. Humanly not know about credibility of those videos nor community of biblical scholars doubting Psalm authorship while remembering significant biblical scholars were Jewish Sanhedrin members who believed יהוה claims by Jesus cursed יהוה so Jesus deserved to die as stated in John 19:7 (Leviticus 24:10-23 law)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My reply on January 9 about "today" is consistent with Paul's Jewish exhortation in a Jewish Synagogue that quoted LXX snippet of Psalm 2:7
@Bill_Coley Yet another occasion when you claim consistency rather than content as support for your views. In this instance, consistency does nothing to explain how Paul used the Psalm 2 verse in Acts 13, wherein he believes the occasion of God's raising Jesus from the dead is the "today" referenced in Psalm 2 (cf. Romans 1.4).
My reading of Psalm 2:7 in LXX and Acts 13 content found agreement for my consistency claim, which differs from some scholars seeing "today" in Psalm 2:7 being resurrection (while appreciating new covenant beginning).
Content observation noted Hebrew Psalm 2:7 was translated into Greek LXX διαγγέλλων τὸ πρόσταγμα Κυρίου. Κύριος εἶπεν πρὸς μέ Υἱός μου εἶ σύ, ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε· announcing the ordinance of the Lord. The Lord said to me, ‘You are my son; today I have begotten you. (LES) that has a snippet quoted by Paul in Acts 13:33 Υἱός μου εἶ σύ, ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε. (SBLGNT) (‘You are my son; today I have begotten you.). Metzger's Textual commentary about Acts 13:33 includes
It is not known when numerals were first assigned to the Psalms. There is some patristic and rabbinical evidence that in the early Christian period what is now reckoned as the second Psalm was regarded as the continuation of the first Psalm. In his comments on the second Psalm Origen states that he had two Hebrew manuscripts, in one of which the second Psalm was joined to the first. In illustration of such an ordering of the Psalms he refers to the present passage in Acts, where the statement, “Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee,” is identified as a quotation from the first Psalm, whereas in the Greek manuscripts (here Origen means the Septuagint) this Psalm is indicated (μηνύει) as the second. At the same time, one should not overlook the fact, he adds, that no Hebrew manuscript of the Psalms actually contains a number, such as “first” or “second” or “third.”
Bruce Manning Metzger, United Bible Societies, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies’ Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.) (London; New York: United Bible Societies, 1994), 363.
New Testament has יהוה Father Speaking "My Son" in Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, Luke 9:35, & 2 Peter 1:17 so humanly do not know how many human beings heard & understood יהוה Father speaking from Heaven to identity יהוה Jesus as "My Son"
@Bill_Coley@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Acts 13 Jewish exhortation included four prophetic quotes (after beginning with Jewish history summary), but does not provide your direct answer to: 'How can the "chosen king" already on the throne have "today" God become his Father ?' to explain your earlier meaning about Psalm 2:7, which has three "chosen king" possibilities: יהוה or human beings David (a man after heart of יהוה) or Saul (who disobeyed יהוה).
@Bill_Coley I didn't cite Acts 13 to explain how the king referenced in Psalm 2 became God's son. I cited Acts 13 to indicate the various meanings the word "today" can have.
@Bill_Coley In Psalm 2, it is the occasion of God's selection of the king to the throne (Psalm 2.6) that is the "today" referenced in Psalm 2.7. To the king who speaks in v.7, God's elevation of him to the throne means that he (the king) has in effect become God's "son" and God has become his "Father." In such a context, "today" doesn't mean a Thursday or Monday; it means now, in this new circumstance (i.e. that he has become king). Paul made a similar claim in Romans 1.4, when of Jesus he wrote "and he was shown to be the Son of God when he was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is Jesus Christ our Lord." In the new circumstance of the resurrection, Jesus was shown to be the Son of God.
@Bill_Coley I don't know how to be more direct than that.
Psalm 2:6-7 (LEB) “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will tell the decree; Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you. has perfect past verb (I have set my king) with future verb (I will tell ... today) simply disagrees with idea "it is the occasion of God's selection of the king to the throne" for "today" meaning. Again, what is the name of the "chosen king" in Psalm 2:6-7 ? Implication from Romans 1:4 (in middle of Romans 1:1-7 sentence) is Jesus Christ our יהוה Lord being the "chosen king"
More textual counter-points to Psalm 2:7 "today" being physical body resurrection of יהוה Jesus is many prayers by יהוה Jesus to יהוה Father, Abba.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My faith view sees God's Holy Heavenly mountain connection between Psalm 2:6 and Isaiah 14:13-15 (Lucifer's prideful "I" trouble in Heaven), which is compared to the King of Babylon named in Isaiah 14:4 (with focus change to Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 morning star fallen from Heaven).
@Bill_Coley I claim that your response here reflects yet more importation of your personal faith views into the biblical text:
@Bill_Coley In its Psalm 2 context, God's "holy mountain" refers simply to the city of Jerusalem. (Psalm 2.6)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Where on earth is evidence of The Throne for יהוה on God's Holy mountain ? (2 Chronicles 3:1-2 in 4th year of reign, King Solomon began building a Temple for יהוה in Jerusalem, but that Temple did not have The Throne for יהוה while having the Ark of יהוה Covenant in the Holy of Holies)
@Bill_Coley The location of a throne (that is not referenced) in 2 Chronicles 3.1-2 is not relevant to my comment about the in context meaning of the psalmist's reference to God's "holy mountain" in Psalm 2.6. Where in the Psalm 2 text do you find support for your turn to the temple construction reported in 2 Chronicles?
Wondering if I misread your reply 'God's "holy mountain" refers simply to the city of Jerusalem.' as referring to the city on earth ?
City of Jerusalem on earth did not have a Temple for יהוה during the time of David (so included 2 Chronicles 3:1-2 reference for Temple building).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What kind of created being was the king of Babylon ? (human being born on earth, who has "been thrown down to earth" seems to SAY '1+1=17')
@Bill_Coley In the Isaiah 14 text, the king of Babylon IS the one who is "thrown down to earth." But what does "thrown down to earth" mean in that context? It does NOT mean tossed from spiritual heaven to physical earth. Rather, it means the arrogant king will be humbled, cut down (Isaiah 14.8) from the lofty stature he has ascribed to himself (Isaiah 14.13). It means "those who captured Israel will themselves be captured, and Israel will rule over its enemies." (Isaiah 14.2)
Human being king of Babylon must have been quite Arrogant to warrant comparison with our spiritual adversary. Isaiah 14.12-13 (LEB) “How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. For you said to yourself, ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. that has heaven location (Isaiah 14:12) for the one thrown down to earth because of sin: ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Fantastic appeal to authority is the idea "But the texts themselves do not support your interpretations; they simply do not say what you claim they say." that really reflects your personal choice what to believe most (accumulated doubt about יהוה Jesus over years of studying snippets), which authoritatively does not want to see literal truth יהוה consistency (so my textual יהוה plausibility claims appear unbelieveable to you).
@Bill_Coley Your characterization and assessment of my personal faith faith journey does not change the fact that the "literal truth" of the texts themselves does not support your "plausible" or "consistent" views.
Thankful יהוה knows what is righteously correct in our faith views of text believability (as we disagree about what the text themselves say).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If one commentary is correct about Psalm 20:9 The King = The Messiah (based on Hebrew athnach cantillation marking to identify/separate phrases), then original readers of Psalm 20 would not know The King's name until The Messiah is revealed.
@Bill_Coley One commentary's view of Psalm 20.9 does not change the fact that in the context of the entire Psalm, the "king" referenced in that verse is simply whoever ruled at the time of the psalm's creation: ...
@Bill_Coley Those (and many others in the psalm) are descriptions of a currently-reigning king and the people he leads, not a future one.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Psalm 20 was written by David so currently-reigning king could be יהוה or human beings David (after heart of יהוה) or Saul (who disobeyed יהוה).
@Bill_Coley We disagree.
Codex Leningradensis (L) from 1008 was the textual basis for modern digital Hebrew Bibles, which begins Psalm 20 with three Hebrew words: למנצח מזמור לדוד that appears in New Living Translation (NLT) as: For the choir director: A psalm of David. (Hebrew and LXX apparatus resources do not have any questionable readings about the author of Psalm 20 being David while verse 3 has variant renderings).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Caveat: Lord יהוה God designed human beings with free will to choose what to love most, which enables apostacy: fall away from choosing to Love Lord יהוה God first so previous righteous deeds are not remembered by Lord יהוה God per Ezekiel 18:19-24 & Matthew 7:21-23 (apostacy example is Jewish religious leaders who believed Jesus ought to die for cursing Lord יהוה God while understanding יהוה Son deity claims by Jesus).
@Bill_Coley Jesus made no deity claims.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Another appeal to an unnamed authority is your personal faith belief idea "Jesus made no deity claims." (appears authoritatively correct for your faith belief that Jesus is NOT God), but simply cannot explain sin of Jewish religious leaders seeking Roman execution of Jesus (in all the Gospels, especially John 19:7) nor the many יהוה claims by Jesus. Your faith willfully does not want to see & believe literal יהוה consistency that is truly in Scripture, which reminded me of Matthew 10:33 (LEB) "... whoever denies me before people, I also will deny him before my Father who is in heaven."
@Bill_Coley Again with a characterization and assessment of my personal faith journey, this time accompanied by a not-so-subtle prediction of my eternal destiny. I pray there comes a day when you no longer feel justified in violating these forums' clear directive to criticize ideas, not people.
Curious if you recognize your occasional hypocrisy about forum guideline violations ? (includes inconsistency with a variety of forum posters)
Thankful for idea of human eternal destiny really being ongoing choices by human beings what to really, really, really love most. Thankful יהוה has faithful, perservering (patient) love for every human being. Humanly anticipate יהוה Jesus having eyes with many tears as He tells ones crying out to Him: 'יהוה ,יהוה' that "I never knew you, depart from me" as יהוה desires every human being to love יהוה first & most with ALL the human has. Holy Righteous Love does not demand its own way as expressed in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (LEB) Love is patient, love is kind, love is not jealous, it does not boast, it does not become conceited, it does not behave dishonorably, it is not selfish, it does not become angry, it does not keep a record of wrongs, it does not rejoice at unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will pass away. If there are tongues, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will pass away.
After Saul personally encountered יהוה Jesus on the road to Damascus, Saul/Paul still had human choices what to really, really, really love most.
@Bill_Coley We've been down the religious leaders' "sin," and found no common ground. In the past, you've argued that the leaders would NOT have violated the commandment against murder - so they must have been right to use as evidence in Jesus' trial their belief that Jesus had claimed to be God - BUT those same leaders WOULD have violated the command against bearing false witness, so they were wrong when they claimed Jesus was empowered by demons. So the leaders would NEVER have violated the Ten Commandments... unless they violated the Ten Commandments. In my view, that's not a strong argument.
From my view, your belief idea about Jewish religious leader belief reaction to יהוה expressions by Jesus is unbelievable (incredulous) along with contradicting Luke 22:67 text that shows a lack of respect for the words of יהוה Jesus. Matthew 23:27-28 (LEB) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees—hypocrites!—because you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean! In the same way, on the outside you also appear righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Looking in Lexham Hebrew Bible at Jeremiah 23:5-6 finds יהוה naming יהוה צדקנו that simply disagrees with your faith idea "That's not what the text says." (lacks your faith perspective qualifier in appeal to an unnamed authority while my authority is יהוה inspired original language text).
@Bill_Coley Regardless of the authority we each cite - "unnamed" or "יהוה inspired" - the Jeremiah 23 text does NOT say that the davidic descendant of v.5 will be God.
יהוה does not give יהוה name to anyone else (Isaiah 42:8), which is also true of צדקנו (Righteousness We). No human spritual descendent of sin stained spirit from Adam has been named יהוה צדקנו (nor has anything created by יהוה, Holy name יהוה is unique to יהוה). The יהוה Lord's chosen servant in Isaiah 42:1-9 includes Righteousness in Isaiah 42:6 that is consistent with Jeremiah 23:5-6 for Davidic descendant/servant of יהוה Son.
Repeating idea "the Jeremiah 23 text does NOT say that the davidic descendant of v.5 will be God." expresses faith belief that does NOT want to see what the text truly says in Jeremiah 23:5-6, confirmed when human physical body of יהוה Jesus (Son) was resurrected to live forever as יהוה King Righteousness, at the right hand of יהוה Father on יהוה throne in Holy Heaven.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Why worship a person of authority and leadership as the Son of יהוה God ? What authority has physical ability to walk on stormy, wavy water ?
@Bill_Coley The same authority that empowered Jesus to speak, heal, and forgive sins: authority given to him by God. (John 10.17-18; 12.49)
Only יהוה has the authority to forgive sins against יהוה. Matthew 9:1-8 includes some contemporary Biblical Scholars, scribes, in the time of יהוה Jesus thinking Jesus cursed יהוה Lord, blasphemed, by saying “Have courage, child, your sins are forgiven.” that is followed by יהוה words spoken through יהוה Jesus as a question: "Which is easier ? ..." followed by יהוה Jesus healing paralytic to rise up from stretcher and walk to glorify יהוה.
John 10:14-18 begins “I AM יהוה the good shepherd, and I יהוה know my own, and my own know me יהוה, just as the יהוה Father knows me יהוה and I יהוה know the יהוה Father, and I יהוה lay down my life for the sheep.“ truly consistent with Philippians 2:5-11 & John 10:17-18 "Because of this the יהוה Father loves me, because I יהוה lay down my life so that I יהוה may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me יהוה, but I יהוה lay it down voluntarily. I יהוה have authority to lay it down, and I יהוה have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I יהוה received from my יהוה Father.”
Commandment in John 12:49 has יהוה purpose of eternal life in John 12:50 that is also consistent with Philippians 2:5-11
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Looking at Philippians 2:5-11 in "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" shows one sentence as does SBL Greek NT: Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of יהוה (θεοῦ => of θεός), did not consider being equal with יהוה (θεῷ => with θεός) something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also יהוה (ὁ θεὸς => The God) exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה (κύριος) , to the glory of יהוה (θεοῦ => of θεός) the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (LEB with Hebrew & Greek) so Paul qualitatively described Jesus: θεός (form & equal) & κύριος (Lord) choosing humility.
@Bill_Coley In my view, the Philippians 2 text is one of the few compelling pieces of evidence available to your side of this debate (compared with the dozens or scores of compelling pieces available to my side). I acknowledge the challenge the text presents, BUT ALSO note that Paul's words there must be placed in their proper context. In Philippians 2.9, for example, Paul says God elevated Jesus "to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names." One who was God didn't already have the "place of highest honor," but instead had to be elevated to it... by God?
Exaltation followed The Word of God יהוה Son choice to humbly leave יהוה throne in Holy Heaven to become a slave (servant) on earth, who chose to offer Himself as sinless Holy human physical body for the sin of the world, which enables יהוה believers to experience eternal life.
Idea 'In my view, the Philippians 2 text is one of the few compelling pieces of evidence available to your side of this debate (compared with the dozens or scores of compelling pieces available to my side).' reads to me as another appeal to an unnamed authority while doubting validity about relative number of compelling pieces (while remembering your primary doubts are "the man Jesus" and misunderstanding humility of Jesus that concludes Jesus cannot be God so now does not want to see Jesus identifying I AM יהוה, in fact your personal belief is imposed upon Jesus).
Jude 5 has a text variant: Lord OR Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus יהוה connection is consistent with Psalm 2:6-7 along with Acts 13.33 (LEB) this promise God has fulfilled to our children by raising Jesus, as it is also written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have fathered you.’ where fathered translates γεγέννηκά = γεννάω verb in perfect tense (completed action in past time with ongoing result), active, indicative, first person, singular (gloss of γεννάω is 'to become the parent of, to father'). Colossians 1:9-20 in "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" & SBL Greek NT shows one sentence having many clauses. Kingdom of the יהוה Son in Colossians 1:13 is consistent with Psalms 2:6-7 & Jeremiah 23:5-6 (Lord Righteousness We)
@Bill_Coley Yes. God raised Jesus, and in so doing, showed Jesus to be God's son (Romans 1.4). The one raised is not the one who does the raising.
@Bill_Coley I can't help but notice your ongoing reliance on "consistency" and "plausibility" rather than biblical texts that actually declare what you claim, via nothing more than "plausibility" and "consistency," they mean. The undisputed fact remains: The Bible does NOT say Jesus is God. [And by the way, that IS my personal faith claim... because it's true.]
יהוה Truth is consistent. Please provide Scripture text(s) that simply say "The Bible does NOT say Jesus is God." [doubtful faith conclusion is offered as fact without any supporting Scripture text evidence] & Idea "[And by the way, that IS my personal faith claim... because it's true.]" reminds me of Judges 21:25 ... each one did what was right in his own eyes. [as faith belief filters text so only want to see in the text what believe can be].
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Idea about significant community of biblical scholars reads to me as another appeal to an unnamed authority while notably lacking any scripture(s). FWIW: internet search of founder & hell for one Bible & Tract Society finds many videos. Humanly not know about credibility of those videos nor community of biblical scholars doubting Psalm authorship while remembering significant biblical scholars were Jewish Sanhedrin members who believed יהוה claims by Jesus cursed יהוה so Jesus deserved to die as stated in John 19:7 (Leviticus 24:10-23 law)
No Scriptures in my posts regarding the dating of the Psalms? In THIS POST, I referenced Psalm 137's creation as either during or after the Babylonian exile in the 6th century A.C.E.
I have no comment about "Jewish Sanhedrin members" - much too irrelevant to this issue to merit my attention.
"Some scholars...." Seems to me that you would call that "another appeal to an unnamed authority," wouldn't you?
In my view, the meaning of the Psalm and Paul's use of that Psalm is clear to authorities both named and unnamed, as well as to those who consume, or hear about, or simply imagine their work. "Today" means today, as in now, this present time.
New Testament has יהוה Father Speaking "My Son" in Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, Luke 9:35, & 2 Peter 1:17 so humanly do not know how many human beings heard & understood יהוה Father speaking from Heaven to identity יהוה Jesus as "My Son"
I don't think we've disagreed about the content or source of the voice from heaven quoted in those cited verses. We likely strongly disagree as to whether the "my son" reference in the Gospels fulfills the "my son" reference in the Psalm.
Psalm 2:6-7 (LEB) “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will tell the decree; Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you. has perfect past verb (I have set my king) with future verb (I will tell ... today) simply disagrees with idea "it is the occasion of God's selection of the king to the throne" for "today" meaning. Again, what is the name of the "chosen king" in Psalm 2:6-7 ? Implication from Romans 1:4 (in middle of Romans 1:1-7 sentence) is Jesus Christ our יהוה Lord being the "chosen king"
The words "I will tell" are from the king, God's anointed one, and have nothing to do with a future event. In context, those words declare the king's intention to tell others about God's word to him.
There is no support in Romans 1.1-7 for the proposition that Jesus is the king identified in Psalm 2.
More textual counter-points to Psalm 2:7 "today" being physical body resurrection of יהוה Jesus is many prayers by יהוה Jesus to יהוה Father, Abba.
Jesus is the Son of God. The voice from heaven twice calls Jesus "my beloved son." Neither of those textual facts counters the fact that Psalm 2.7, in context, refers to a king in the Psalmist's day.
Wondering if I misread your reply 'God's "holy mountain" refers simply to the city of Jerusalem.' as referring to the city on earth ? City of Jerusalem on earth did not have a Temple for יהוה during the time of David (so included 2 Chronicles 3:1-2 reference for Temple building).
In Psalm 2, the King is not placed in a temple; he is placed "on the throne," which is a reference to his being elevated to the position of king, ruling from Jerusalem ("holy mountain"). Hence, I don't understand your reference here to a temple. I don't see any references to a temple anywhere in Psalm 2.
Human being king of Babylon must have been quite Arrogant to warrant comparison with our spiritual adversary. Isaiah 14.12-13 (LEB) “How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. For you said to yourself, ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. that has heaven location (Isaiah 14:12) for the one thrown down to earth because of sin: ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars.
In my view, Isaiah 14.12-13 is a reference to the Babylonian king, and not an allusion to "our spiritual adversary." Jesus' description of Satan's fall "like lightning" from heaven in Luke 10.18 contains no suggestion of a connection to or fulfillment of the Isaiah 14 text.
Thankful יהוה knows what is righteously correct in our faith views of text believability (as we disagree about what the text themselves say).
I'm confident that when it comes to the full truth of Scripture, we both "see in a mirror dimly," and "know only in part." But until we see "face to face" and "know fully," we must each do the best we can to identify what texts say. I trust we are both doing so.
Codex Leningradensis (L) from 1008 was the textual basis for modern digital Hebrew Bibles, which begins Psalm 20 with three Hebrew words: למנצח מזמור לדוד that appears in New Living Translation (NLT) as: For the choir director: A psalm of David. (Hebrew and LXX apparatus resources do not have any questionable readings about the author of Psalm 20 being David while verse 3 has variant renderings).
As I've noted, we disagree as to the dating of the Psalms.
Curious if you recognize your occasional hypocrisy about forum guideline violations ? (includes inconsistency with a variety of forum posters)
No, I don't recognize my "occasional hypocrisy about forum guideline violations." Please quote from my posts to demonstrate the existence of such "hypocrisy." Over the years, a few posters have accused me of same, but have never been able to prove their accusations... because their accusations were false. But you might be right! So don't accuse me; quote me. I claim that I critique - and sometime mock - ideas and arguments and attitudes, which are all things ABOUT people. I don't criticize people's faith, or intelligence, and I certainly don't question their eternal destinies. But I could be wrong! But don't accuse me; quote me.
From my view, your belief idea about Jewish religious leader belief reaction to יהוה expressions by Jesus is unbelievable (incredulous) along with contradicting Luke 22:67 text that shows a lack of respect for the words of יהוה Jesus. Matthew 23:27-28 (LEB) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees—hypocrites!—because you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean! In the same way, on the outside you also appear righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
I simply replayed YOUR argument in the matter and made no reference to Jesus' words. YOU argued that the religious leaders must have been right when they pursued Jesus' execution on the grounds that he had claimed to be God, among other reasons, because they would not have wanted to violate the command against murder. So I substituted one command (against bearing false witness) for another (against murder) and repurposed YOUR argument. I made no mention of Jesus' words found in Luke 22.67.
יהוה does not give יהוה name to anyone else (Isaiah 42:8), which is also true of צדקנו (Righteousness We).
And יהוה doesn't give that name to Jesus, either.
Repeating idea "the Jeremiah 23 text does NOT say that the davidic descendant of v.5 will be God." expresses faith belief that does NOT want to see what the text truly says in Jeremiah 23:5-6, confirmed when human physical body of יהוה Jesus (Son) was resurrected to live forever as יהוה King Righteousness, at the right hand of יהוה Father on יהוה throne in Holy Heaven.
No. My claim about the Jeremiah 23 text expresses my belief about what the text actually says... and doesn't say.
Only יהוה has the authority to forgive sins against יהוה. Matthew 9:1-8 includes some contemporary Biblical Scholars, scribes, in the time of יהוה Jesus thinking Jesus cursed יהוה Lord, blasphemed, by saying “Have courage, child, your sins are forgiven.” that is followed by יהוה words spoken through יהוה Jesus as a question: "Which is easier ? ..." followed by יהוה Jesus healing paralytic to rise up from stretcher and walk to glorify יהוה.
You make the Pharisees' argument! They tell Jesus that only God can forgive sins (Mark 2.7). In response, Jesus tells them that he has - we can safely surmise because God has given it to him - the authority to forgive sins (Mark 2.10; c.f. John 13.3).
John 10:14-18 begins “I AM יהוה the good shepherd, and I יהוה know my own, and my own know me יהוה, just as the יהוה Father knows me יהוה and I יהוה know the יהוה Father, and I יהוה lay down my life for the sheep.“ truly consistent with Philippians 2:5-11 & John 10:17-18 "Because of this the יהוה Father loves me, because I יהוה lay down my life so that I יהוה may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me יהוה, but I יהוה lay it down voluntarily. I יהוה have authority to lay it down, and I יהוה have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I יהוה received from my יהוה Father.”
Notice the language: Jesus has "the authority" to take up his life again. Where does that authority come from? John 13.3 says it comes from what God has given Jesus. John 12.49 repeats his view that Jesus operates on authority from God. If that's your point, I agree.
Exaltation followed The Word of God יהוה Son choice to humbly leave יהוה throne in Holy Heaven to become a slave (servant) on earth, who chose to offer Himself as sinless Holy human physical body for the sin of the world, which enables יהוה believers to experience eternal life.
Idea 'In my view, the Philippians 2 text is one of the few compelling pieces of evidence available to your side of this debate (compared with the dozens or scores of compelling pieces available to my side).' reads to me as another appeal to an unnamed authority while doubting validity about relative number of compelling pieces (while remembering your primary doubts are "the man Jesus" and misunderstanding humility of Jesus that concludes Jesus cannot be God so now does not want to see Jesus identifying I AM יהוה, in fact your personal belief is imposed upon Jesus).
You're welcome to assess my "doubts," personal beliefs, and my "misunderstanding" of Jesus' humility as you see fit. Your assessments won't change the fact that you and I disagree.
Jude 5 has a text variant: Lord OR Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.
I agree that such variants exist.
יהוה Truth is consistent. Please provide Scripture text(s) that simply say "The Bible does NOT say Jesus is God." [doubtful faith conclusion is offered as fact without any supporting Scripture text evidence] & Idea "[And by the way, that IS my personal faith claim... because it's true.]" reminds me of Judges 21:25 ... each one did what was right in his own eyes. [as faith belief filters text so only want to see in the text what believe can be].
There is no such verse. But then again, there is no verse that says Jesus was not a kumquat. I guess that means Jesus might have been a kumquat?
There were COUNTLESS things Jesus was "not." But there aren't verses that identify all those countless things. I contend that were Jesus God, Jesus would have told us so, but he didn't... and other New Testament writers would have told us so, but they didn't. It's FAR, FAR, FAR more probative that no text says Jesus was God than it is that no text says "the Bible does NOT say Jesus is God."
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Puzzling. Phrase "Who was, and is, and is to come" is the meaning of Lord God's most Holy Name YHWH יְהוָ֥ה (spoken by Lord God to Moses in Exodus 3:14).
@YourTruthGod Exodus 3:14 doesn't say "Who was, and is, and is to come".
@YourTruthGod This is what Exodus 3:14 says: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Bible translation authorized by King James included directive to keep Bishop's Bible wording when practical so olde English singular (thee, thine, thou, thy) and plural (ye) forms of "you" were retained (corresponding with original language singular & plural second person usage). Lexham English Bible (LEB) is a relatively new, modern English translation that tends to be more literal than King James authorized version, except for second person usage (LEB did not need to keep Bishop's Bible words for second person so used "you"). Literal translation (formal equivalence) assumes reader understands Biblical culture (Jewish) so tries to avoid mixing cultural interpretation thoughts into English rendering of original language texts. In contrast, dynamic equivalence (thought for thought) Bible translations embed varying degrees of cultural interpretation.
Rabbinic Bible commentary about Exodus 3:14 includes NAHMANIDES (also known by acronym "Ramban" b. 1195 in Spain, d. 1270 in Israel)
NAHMANIDES
Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh. Rashi, quoting a midrash from B. Ber. 9b, explains that the first Ehyeh, “I will be,” refers to their trouble in Egypt, and the second to future troubles. What this midrash means is that when Moses asked the Blessed One what His name was, he wanted to teach the Israelites the Name that would give them complete instruction about His existence and His providence. The Holy One answered him, “Why would they ask My name? They need no other proof than that I will be with them—in all their troubles they will call Me and I will answer them.” And this is the greatest possible proof that there is a God in Israel “so close at hand … whenever we call upon Him” (Deut. 4:7) and that “there is, indeed, divine justice on earth” (Ps. 58:12). The explanation in this midrash is correct. Another midrash interprets Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh as follows: Just as you are with Me, I am with you. If you open your hands and give charity, I, too, will open My hands: “The Lord will open for you His bounteous store” (Deut. 28:12). If you do not open your hands, what is written there? “When He holds back the waters, they dry up” (Job 12:15). Another midrash: R. Isaac said: The Holy One said to Moses, Tell them it is I who was, I who am now, and I who will be. That is why Ehyeh is written here three times. The explanation of R. Isaac’s opinion is as follows. Since past and future are all present for the Creator—for with Him there is no time, and in Him there is no change—and none of His days have passed, therefore He is called by all the tenses in a single Name, signifying that His existence is necessary always. Onkelos translated Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh as “I will be with whom I will be.” But he did not translate the name at all in the phrase Thus shall you say to the Israelites, “Ehyeh sent me to you.” Apparently Onkelos thought that Ehyeh was the Name and Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh the explanation of its meaning. For Moses’ question was aimed at discovering God’s ways from His Name, just as he later asked, “Pray let me know Your ways, that I may know You” (33:13). In that place God answered him, “I will proclaim before you the name Lord, and the grace that I grant and the compassion that I show” (33:19), to say that by means of the Tetragrammaton that He called out before him God grants grace and shows compassion. No one can penetrate the depth of His profundity, which is why Onkelos translates here, “I will be with whom I will be”—with My Name. Tell the Israelites it is “I will be”—for by its means I am with man to grant grace and show compassion. Saadia wrote that it was to be explained to mean that He had not passed into existence and would not pass out of existence, for He is the first and the last. This is close to what R. Isaac said. Maimonides says in the Guide (1:63) that God is necessarily existent and cannot ever be nonexistent. According to these scholars, it must be explained that the Holy One said to Moses that he should tell them that Name and teach it to them, that is, that Moses should teach them the rational arguments that these scholars use to prove God’s necessary, imperishable existence. For mention of the Name alone—however he might say it—is no argument to eliminate belief in the preexistence of the universe, or the heretical belief that completely denies God’s existence. But this is not what the text means. Rather, the mere mention of the Name was the proof; it was the “sign” in reply to what they would ask him. In my opinion, the elders of Israel could not have had any doubt about the existence of the Creator, God forbid, as Maimonides suggested. Rather, the Name was the answer to Moses’ question, as we have explained to you. God informed him that he was being sent to the Israelites by the attribute of justice that is within the attribute of mercy. That is why He told Moses, “Thus shall you say to the Israelites, ‘Ehyeh sent me to you.’ ” Moses was to tell them only “Ehyeh” a single time in order to teach them of the unity of God. That is why he is further commanded to tell them, “The Lord … has sent me to you” (v. 15). For this Name—the Tetragrammaton—signifies the attribute of mercy, and they would know that He would “make His glorious arm march at the right hand of Moses” (Isa. 63:12), and perform new signs and wonders upon the earth. But to Moses He explained that the “Ehyeh” that He commanded him to tell them was in fact the Name we read as “Lord,” similar in meaning and in spelling. For the two last letters of Ehyeh are the first two letters of the Tetragrammaton. The א with which it begins, the first letter of the alphabet, is an indicator of precedence and of unity. The י with which the other Name begins, the 10th letter, indicates the 10 sefirot. And these two letters, א and י, the initial letters of the two holy Names, are written as the first and last letters of the euphemism with which we replace the Name, אדני, Adonai (“Lord”)—to teach that He is Lordliness from beginning to end —leaving דנ, which refers to the attribute of justice (דין), in the middle. For “My Name is in the middle of it” (23:21). That is why this Name is spelled “Adonai” instead of the standard grammatical form adoni, “my lord,” which would be used with human beings. For all kingship, lordship, and authority comes from God. May the Holy One show us wonders from His Torah.
Michael Carasik, ed., Exodus: Introduction and Commentary, trans. Michael Carasik, First edition., The Commentators’ Bible (Philadelphia, PA: The Jewish Publication Society, 2005), 20.
Legends of the Jews also describes Jewish knowledge about Lord (Adonai) God's Names:
Persuaded now of God’s unalterable resolve to use him as His instrument in the redemption of Israel from Egypt, Moses entreated God to impart to him the knowledge of His Great Name, that he be not confounded if the children of Israel ask for it. God answered, saying: “Thou desirest to know My Name? My Name is according to My acts. When I judge My creatures, I am called Elohim, “Judge”; when I rise up to do battle against the sinners, I am Lord Zebaot, “the Lord of hosts”; when I wait with longsuffering patience for the improvement of the sinner, My name is El Shaddai; when I have mercy upon the world, I am Adonai. But unto the children of Israel shalt thou say that I am He that was, that is, and that ever will be, and I am He that is with them in their bondage now, and He that shall be with them in the bondage of the time to come.”
Louis Ginzberg, Henrietta Szold, and Paul Radin, Legends of the Jews, 2nd ed. (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 2003), 510.
Elohim is the plural spelling of Elohe. Logos Bible Search of the Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for <Root = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> INTERSECTS <Person God> finds 2,330 plural usages (Elohim) and 51 singular uses (Elohe). Note: 'Legends of the Jews' was written over 100 years ago in German.
@YourTruthGod It is said of Jesus that he 'was', and 'is', and 'is to come'.
Idea "It is said of Jesus that he 'was', and 'is', and 'is to come'." reads to me as an appeal to an unnamed authority while lacking Scripture text reference(s) for conclusion. Also, "it" lacks ability to participate in this discussion about ideas (and learn from interaction, same as the deceased authors in my earlier quotes about meaning of God's Holy Name). Being able to explain the ideas of what you believe using Scripture allows others to consider rationale for belief, which lets them choose what to believe (along with helping understand your own belief ideas).
@YourTruthGod John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The first two words of John 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ (In beginning, with "the" added in translation for finger pointing aspect of preposition "in") are the same as Greek Septuagint Genesis 1:1 (Greek scripture of Old Covenant at the time of John), which was readable across the Roman Empire as Koine Greek was a language used for every day business transactions. Ἐν is a preposition whose primary English translation is "in" in the Lexham English Bible (LEB). Logos Bible Search <Lemma = lbs/el/ἐν> INTERSECTS in has 1,816 results in LEB <Lemma = lbs/el/ἐν> NOT INTERSECTS in has 921 results. John 1:1c phrase "and the Word was God" translates "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" (and God was The Word), which has a Greek grammar implication not readily understood in English. Around the verb "to be" εἰμί has interchangeable sameness when definite article "the" is on both sides of the verb. John 1:1c phrase "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" is a quality expression about all of The Word was being God ("was being" expresses ἦν spelling showing imperfect tense of εἰμί => continual action in past time). Greek grammar implication: God was being more than "The Word", which is consistent with Deuteronmy 6:4 "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad" (Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one) and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being, and all your resources. Eloheinu is plural Elohim (God with "of us" suffix => "our") while ADONAI is singular. My faith worships One plural unified God, who is unique having three distinct voices, which includes Jesus experiencing God's Glory (John 17:5) and Love (John 17:24) when the physical world had not yet been created by Elohim (plural).
@YourTruthGod Acts 1:10-11 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
@YourTruthGod Revelation 1:8 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Not sure what connection idea(s) was intended with verse quotations plus keys of death and Hades is in Revelation 1:18 (not Revelation 1:8).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Please provide scripture reference(s) where Jesus is called "Lord God Almighty". Logos Bible Software search for phrase "Lord God Almighty" found five results in KJV 1900 (verses in Revelation read to me as "Lord God 'Father' Almighty").
@YourTruthGod Read these scriptures and note how it says Jesus is the First and the Last.
@YourTruthGod Revelation 2:8 , Revelation 1:17 , Revelation 22:12 , Revelation 22:13
My request was for scripture reference(s) where Jesus is called "Lord God Almighty". Providing scripture references for "the First and the Last" implies no scripture reference(s) were found where Jesus is called "Lord God Almighty". Revelation 21:22 (KJV 1900) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. that reads to me as יהוה Father Lord God Almighty and the Lamb יהוה Son (two distinguishable voices in one יהוה). Jesus being "The First and the Last" is consistent with The Word quality was being יהוה (John 1:1c).
"The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament, SBL Edition: Sentence Analysis" shows verse Revelation 2:8 is in the middle of one long Greek sentence from Revelation 1:17 to Revelation 3:22 (while "OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" shows Revelation 2:8 has two clauses). Sentence Analysis shows Revelation 22:10-13 is one Greek sentence. Original Greek manuscripts did not have chapter and verse numbering. About 500 years ago had uninspired chapter & verse numbering added (without regard to original language thought boundaries so numerous verse numbers are in the middle of sentences). Thankful for Logos & Verbum Bible Software having the ability to hide chapter & verse numbers so can read English translations like original manuscripts (right click shows chapter & verse location).
@YourTruthGod Now note that God the Father in the Old Testament is called the First and the Last. The Father and Jesus are one, and 'one' means 'the same'.
We disagree about 'one' meaning 'the same' (interchangeable). Echad אֶחָד in Deuteronomy 6:4 has been translated into various English Bibles as: one, onely, unique, alone, "only true", "the one and only" (notable missing is 'the same' that is also missing from אֶחָד dictionary/lexicon entries). Edit: found 15 lexicons (out of 81) include 'same' in some אֶחָד definitions.
Concur יהוה Father and יהוה Son = יהוה "The First and The Last" so both Father and Jesus can truthfully say "I am the first and I am the last."
@YourTruthGod Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
@YourTruthGod Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
@YourTruthGod See that is God the Father speaking in the Old Testament, and it is Jesus not yet known.
What contextual words in Isaiah 40-49 show God the Father is speaking ? Noticed phrase "Holy One" occurs 12 times, which is consistent with Luke 4:34 declaration from a man having many demonic spirits inside: “Ha! Leave us alone, Jesus the Nazarene! Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!” (LEB)
Isaiah 44:6 (LEB) Thus says Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god besides me.
Isaiah 44:6 (KJV 1900) Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, And his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; And beside me there is no God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Agree The Father (The Will of God) and Jesus (The Word of God) are always One (sharing One image of God) while having distinct voices.
@YourTruthGod They are not distinct they are one and the same.
We agree about יהוה Father & יהוה Son being one יהוה God, but disagree about them being the same (interchangeable).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Who spoke from Heaven when Jesus was baptized on earth ? Now after he was baptized, Jesus immediately went up from the water, and behold, the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove coming upon him. And behold, there was a voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:16-17 (LEB)
@YourTruthGod God the Father in heaven spoke to Jesus when he was baptized on earth.
@YourTruthGod God the Father came as a son in the flesh at the same time He lived in heaven in unapproachable light.
Many humans hearing the voices of יהוה Father & יהוה Son (Jesus) heard & understood two distinguishable voices of one יהוה God, as recorded at baptism (Matthew 3:16-17 & Mark 1:11 & Luke 3:22) plus other times: Matthew 15:7, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35 & 2 Peter 1:17
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Personally believe Jesus was at The Father's side during planning phase(s) for physical world plus One Lord God's nature is truthfully consistent, which includes The Father (The Will of God) and Jesus (The Word of God) and Breath The Holy being One plural unified God: was, is, & will be.
@YourTruthGod Jesus' body is the body containing the Spirit of God the Father, and Jesus speaks God's Word who spoke everything into existence and through whose body everything was made.
Embedded in idea ' Jesus' body is the body containing the Spirit of God the Father,' is definition of 'one' meaning 'the same' (interchangeable).
@YourTruthGod If Jesus is not God the Father, then how many Spirits are you claiming? The Bible says there is one Spirit. God the Father is Spirit. The Holy Spirit is His Spirit, and Jesus Christ is said to be the Spirit. There are not three different Spirits.
My faith believes in the idea of one plural unified יהוה God, who intensely/intimately share One יהוה Spirit while having three (plural) distinct voices (simultaneous roles) to express יהוה God's Holy Love by truly Loving one another along with Loving created life.
@YourTruthGod 1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus First man Adam refers to Genesis 2:7 while the last Adam is Jesus, who was conceived without sin (dark) nature inherited from first man Adam (created Holy by Lord God's breath of life into dust). The last Adam was miraculously conceived as Holy followed by choosing to remain Holy as our spiritual adversary tried sinful tactics against Jesus that have resulted in all human beings choosing to sin. Jesus is Light (no darkness at all).
@YourTruthGod Jesus is a life giving Spirit. God the Father is a life giving Spirit. They are one and the same Spirit.
@YourTruthGod Jesus is a life giving Spirit, see 1 Corinthians 15:45. The Spirit gives life; see 2 Corinthians 3:6.
We agree יהוה Father (Will) & יהוה Son (Jesus, Word) & יהוה Breath The Holy are being One יהוה Spirit while we disagree about One יהוה Spirit having three distinguishable voices for expressing יהוה God's Holy Love.
@YourTruthGod All these scriptures tell us Jesus is the Spirit: Revelation 2:7, 8, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 14:13; 22:17.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The seven letters to the seven churches in Revelation begin by describing Jesus, followed by "I know ..." while near end of letter is phrase "ὁ ἔχων οὖς ἀκουσάτω τί τὸ πνεῦμα λέγει ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις" "The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (LEB) that is preceded by "I" declarations. Third person reference to The Spirit also occurs in Revelation 22:17 (personally believe The Spirit is Breath The Holy, which is consistent with 2 Corinthians 3 about The Spirit of The Lord being Breath The Holy). Revelation 14:13 does not say which voice(s) of One plural unified God spoke awesome words about ones obeying Lord God with faith Jesus is Lord God.
@YourTruthGod It is about Jesus. In addition, I gave you scriptures that say there is only one Spirit, and scripture that says Jesus is the Spirit.
Noticed another "it" appeal to an unamed authority (while recognizing whole Bible is about יהוה God's Holy Love story). Idea that giving scriptures will cause recipient to change belief to match yours is flawed (as each human chooses what to really, really, really love & believe the most).
@YourTruthGod You say the Holy Spirit is the breath, well, Jesus is the Word of God and his words are Spirit.
@YourTruthGod John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:52-65 (LEB) So the Jews began to quarrel among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Then Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves! The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood resides in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so also the one who eats me—that one will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. The one who eats this bread will live forever.” He said these things while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Thus many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This saying is hard! Who can understand it?” But Jesus, because he knew within himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Does this cause you to be offended? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascending where he was before? The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “Because of this I said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father.”
FYI: "the Son of Man" refers to Daniel 7:13-14 (in Holy Heaven) as a יהוה deity expression spoken by Jesus using third person for self reference.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Arian hymn phrase about Jesus: 'ἦν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν' ‘there was when He was not’ simply disagrees with everything being created through Jesus per Colossians 1:9-20 (noticed a semi-colon in the SBLGNT sentence of Colossians 1:9-23 is translated in LEB as a period to end Colossians 1:9-20, which matches the Clause Analysis in the OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament).
@YourTruthGod Could you post the scriptures out in full? I don't see what you are saying.
Colossians 1:9-23 (SBLGNT) Διὰ τοῦτο καὶ ἡμεῖς, ἀφʼ ἧς ἡμέρας ἠκούσαμεν, οὐ παυόμεθα ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν προσευχόμενοι καὶ αἰτούμενοι ἵνα πληρωθῆτε τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ ἐν πάσῃ σοφίᾳ καὶ συνέσει πνευματικῇ, περιπατῆσαι ἀξίως τοῦ κυρίου εἰς πᾶσαν ἀρεσκείαν ἐν παντὶ ἔργῳ ἀγαθῷ καρποφοροῦντες καὶ αὐξανόμενοι τῇ ἐπιγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦ, ἐν πάσῃ δυνάμει δυναμούμενοι κατὰ τὸ κράτος τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ εἰς πᾶσαν ὑπομονὴν καὶ μακροθυμίαν μετὰ χαρᾶς, εὐχαριστοῦντες τῷ πατρὶ τῷ ἱκανώσαντι ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν μερίδα τοῦ κλήρου τῶν ἁγίων ἐν τῷ φωτί, ὃς ἐρρύσατο ἡμᾶς ἐκ τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ σκότους καὶ μετέστησεν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ υἱοῦ τῆς ἀγάπης αὐτοῦ, ἐν ᾧ ἔχομεν τὴν ἀπολύτρωσιν, τὴν ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν· ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται· καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν, καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν ἡ κεφαλὴ τοῦ σώματος τῆς ἐκκλησίας· ὅς ἐστιν ἀρχή, πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, ἵνα γένηται ἐν πᾶσιν αὐτὸς πρωτεύων, ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι καὶ διʼ αὐτοῦ ἀποκαταλλάξαι τὰ πάντα εἰς αὐτόν, εἰρηνοποιήσας διὰ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ σταυροῦ αὐτοῦ, [διʼ αὐτοῦ] εἴτε τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς εἴτε τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς· καὶ ὑμᾶς ποτε ὄντας ἀπηλλοτριωμένους καὶ ἐχθροὺς τῇ διανοίᾳ ἐν τοῖς ἔργοις τοῖς πονηροῖς— νυνὶ δὲ ἀποκατηλλάγητε ἐν τῷ σώματι τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ διὰ τοῦ θανάτου—παραστῆσαι ὑμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους καὶ ἀνεγκλήτους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ, εἴ γε ἐπιμένετε τῇ πίστει τεθεμελιωμένοι καὶ ἑδραῖοι καὶ μὴ μετακινούμενοι ἀπὸ τῆς ἐλπίδος τοῦ εὐαγγελίου οὗ ἠκούσατε, τοῦ κηρυχθέντος ἐν πάσῃ κτίσει τῇ ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανόν, οὗ ἐγενόμην ἐγὼ Παῦλος διάκονος.
Colossians 1:9-23 (LEB) Because of this also we, from the day we heard about it, did not cease praying for you, and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual insight, so that you may live in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good deed and increasing in the knowledge of God, enabled with all power, according to his glorious might, for all steadfastness and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light, who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything, because he was well pleased for all the fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by making peace through the blood of his cross, through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and enemies in attitude, because of your evil deeds, but now you have been reconciled by his physical body through death, to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you remain in the faith, established and steadfast and not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Thankful for free Logos 9 Basic => https://www.logos.com/product/194909 that includes LEB (no effect on dynamic price upgrades) while SBLGNT is in free Lexham Intro collection => https://www.logos.com/product/55923/lexham-intro-collection
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Idea about significant community of biblical scholars reads to me as another appeal to an unnamed authority while notably lacking any scripture(s). FWIW: internet search of founder & hell for one Bible & Tract Society finds many videos. Humanly not know about credibility of those videos nor community of biblical scholars doubting Psalm authorship while remembering significant biblical scholars were Jewish Sanhedrin members who believed יהוה claims by Jesus cursed יהוה so Jesus deserved to die as stated in John 19:7 (Leviticus 24:10-23 law)
@Bill_Coley No Scriptures in my posts regarding the dating of the Psalms? In THIS POST, I referenced Psalm 137's creation as either during or after the Babylonian exile in the 6th century A.C.E.
Puzzled by dating distraction (e.g. Psalm 137) repetition when discussion focus was Psalm 2 authorship that Acts 4:24-25 simply ascribes to David.
FWIW: have not commented about Psalm 137 authorship since that composition (like Psalm 90 written hundreds of years before David) is irrelevant to Psalm 2 question about יהוה "chosen king" in the time of David.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My reading of Psalm 2:7 in LXX and Acts 13 content found agreement for my consistency claim, which differs from some scholars seeing "today" in Psalm 2:7 being resurrection (while appreciating new covenant beginning).
@Bill_Coley "Some scholars...." Seems to me that you would call that "another appeal to an unnamed authority," wouldn't you?
My apologies for not including Logos Bible searches to find "some scholars ..." (as draft of my previous reply had become too long so needed to reduce volume of words). Logos Basic Search of all resources for "new covenant" INTERSECTS {Milestone <Ps2.7>} included Psalm 2 explanation in one of the Top Two Commentaries on Psalms according to https://www.bestcommentaries.com/topcommentaries/ Logos Basic Search can be expanded: (resurrection OR "new covenant") INTERSECTS {Milestone <Ps2.7>}
@Bill_Coley In my view, the meaning of the Psalm and Paul's use of that Psalm is clear to authorities both named and unnamed, as well as to those who consume, or hear about, or simply imagine their work. "Today" means today, as in now, this present time.
In Psalm 2 context, "today" had a specific day according to יהוה plan so יהוה The Will physically became יהוה Father of יהוה Son: יהוה The Word.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus New Testament has יהוה Father Speaking "My Son" in Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, Luke 9:35, & 2 Peter 1:17 so humanly do not know how many human beings heard & understood יהוה Father speaking from Heaven to identity יהוה Jesus as "My Son"
@Bill_Coley I don't think we've disagreed about the content or source of the voice from heaven quoted in those cited verses. We likely strongly disagree as to whether the "my son" reference in the Gospels fulfills the "my son" reference in the Psalm.
To me, Paul was truthful in Acts 13:33 (LEB) ... raising Jesus,as it is also written in the second psalm, ‘You are my Son; today I have fathered you.’
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Psalm 2:6-7 (LEB) “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will tell the decree; Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you. has perfect past verb (I have set my king) with future verb (I will tell ... today) simply disagrees with idea "it is the occasion of God's selection of the king to the throne" for "today" meaning. Again, what is the name of the "chosen king" in Psalm 2:6-7 ? Implication from Romans 1:4 (in middle of Romans 1:1-7 sentence) is Jesus Christ our יהוה Lord being the "chosen king"
@Bill_Coley The words "I will tell" are from the king, God's anointed one, and have nothing to do with a future event. In context, those words declare the king's intention to tell others about God's word to him.
At the time Psalm 2 was written by David, the יהוה Father anointed, chosen king possibilities are: יהוה (The Word became flesh "today" about ~1,000 years later, יהוה Son King Righteousness יהוה צדקנו) or human beings David (a man after heart of יהוה) or Saul (who disobeyed יהוה).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus More textual counter-points to Psalm 2:7 "today" being physical body resurrection of יהוה Jesus is many prayers by יהוה Jesus to יהוה Father, Abba.
@Bill_Coley Jesus is the Son of God. The voice from heaven twice calls Jesus "my beloved son." Neither of those textual facts counters the fact that Psalm 2.7, in context, refers to a king in the Psalmist's day.
If the man Jesus cannot be יהוה Lord God (יהוה The Word dwelling in a human body), please explain idea: ' Jesus is the Son of God.' How can Jesus be the unique, one and only Son of יהוה God (John 3:16-21 & Psalm 2:6-7) while not being יהוה God ? Related question (John 17:5 & John 17:24) is How can Jesus not be יהוה Lord God while spiritually experience יהוה Glory & Love at יהוה The Father's side when physical realm did not exist ?
Idea 'Psalm 2.7, in context, refers to a king in the Psalmist's day.' appeals to an unnamed king as a way of escape from seeing "My Son" יהוה Jesus King Righteousness fulfillment, which again evades question 'what is the name of the "chosen king" in Psalm 2:6-7?'
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Wondering if I misread your reply 'God's "holy mountain" refers simply to the city of Jerusalem.' as referring to the city on earth ? City of Jerusalem on earth did not have a Temple for יהוה during the time of David (so included 2 Chronicles 3:1-2 reference for Temple building).
@Bill_Coley In Psalm 2, the King is not placed in a temple; he is placed "on the throne," which is a reference to his being elevated to the position of king, ruling from Jerusalem ("holy mountain"). Hence, I don't understand your reference here to a temple. I don't see any references to a temple anywhere in Psalm 2.
Please clarify location (earth OR heaven) for idea 'ruling from Jerusalem ("holy mountain").' Also, what words in Psalm 2 provide basis for idea "a reference to his being elevated to the position of king" ? Psalm 2 has perfect past verb (I have set my king) with future verb (I will tell ... today) that simply disagrees with idea "a reference to his being elevated to the position of king". To me, יהוה Jesus existed at יהוה The Father's side before יהוה created physical world so (I have set my king) refers to יהוה Jesus being King (Right Hand of Power) when Elohim (Plural) said: "Let there be light!"
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Human being king of Babylon must have been quite Arrogant to warrant comparison with our spiritual adversary. Isaiah 14.12-13 (LEB) “How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. For you said to yourself, ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars. I will preside on the mountain of the gods far away in the north. that has heaven location (Isaiah 14:12) for the one thrown down to earth because of sin: ‘I will ascend to heaven and set my throne above God’s stars.
@Bill_Coley In my view, Isaiah 14.12-13 is a reference to the Babylonian king, and not an allusion to "our spiritual adversary." Jesus' description of Satan's fall "like lightning" from heaven in Luke 10.18 contains no suggestion of a connection to or fulfillment of the Isaiah 14 text.
Searching Lexham Hebrew Bible for English glosses: King Heaven did not find any verses where the king of Babylon was in heaven, but did find four verses in Daniel 4 where an arrogant king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzer, was humbled on earth for a period of seven times. Puzzled by "from heaven" (ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ) not being a Greek connection between Luke 10:18 (SBLGNT) and Isaiah 14:12-13 (LXX). Searching LXX for phrase "ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ" finds 50 verses with only one, Isaiah 14:12 "you" that can correspond to Luke 10:18 Satan (search found three verses in Daniel 4).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Thankful יהוה knows what is righteously correct in our faith views of text believability (as we disagree about what the text themselves say).
@Bill_Coley I'm confident that when it comes to the full truth of Scripture, we both "see in a mirror dimly," and "know only in part." But until we see "face to face" and "know fully," we must each do the best we can to identify what texts say. I trust we are both doing so.
Thankful & concur with 1 Corinthians 13 so look forward to fully Loving יהוה. Thankful Holy יהוה will Righteously reward every human according to their choices what to really, really, really love most, as demonstrated by belief ideas & resultant actions. Sad for many adults who never chose to love יהוה first as their Lord (Savior & much more) along with apostates who willfully turned away from יהוה first love. Sadly many adults chose not to do Holy Righteous will of יהוה so they will be eternally separated from Holy יהוה Love: Ezekiel 18, Matthew 7:21-23, Hebrews 3:7-19, Jude 5-16, plus Deuteronomy 1:34-40 describes two יהוה believers & children would enter יהוה promised land, but thousands of adults not trusting יהוה died.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Psalm 20 was written by David so currently-reigning king could be יהוה or human beings David (after heart of יהוה) or Saul (who disobeyed יהוה).
@Bill_Coley We disagree.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Codex Leningradensis (L) from 1008 was the textual basis for modern digital Hebrew Bibles, which begins Psalm 20 with three Hebrew words: למנצח מזמור לדוד that appears in New Living Translation (NLT) as: For the choir director: A psalm of David. (Hebrew and LXX apparatus resources do not have any questionable readings about the author of Psalm 20 being David while verse 3 has variant renderings).
@Bill_Coley As I've noted, we disagree as to the dating of the Psalms.
How does 'dating of the Psalms' idea relate to Scripture specifying Psalm 20 author ? (dating idea seems to be a distraction without substance)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Curious if you recognize your occasional hypocrisy about forum guideline violations ? (includes inconsistency with a variety of forum posters)
@Bill_Coley No, I don't recognize my "occasional hypocrisy about forum guideline violations." Please quote from my posts to demonstrate the existence of such "hypocrisy." Over the years, a few posters have accused me of same, but have never been able to prove their accusations... because their accusations were false. But you might be right! So don't accuse me; quote me. I claim that I critique - and sometime mock - ideas and arguments and attitudes, which are all things ABOUT people. I don't criticize people's faith, or intelligence, and I certainly don't question their eternal destinies. But I could be wrong! But don't accuse me; quote me.
In this thread when a different CD poster was using ad-hominem wording directed at me, your silence about forum guidelines spoke volumes.
Recently resurrected thread about Name-calling includes your concluding words publicly posted on September 15, 2018
@Bill_Coley One final thought: Haven’t I violated the “Criticize ideas, not people” expectation throughout this lengthy post? Yes. I don’t excuse my violation, but I do explain it... this way: I have been the subject of more ad hominem attacks in these forums and those of the previous version of CD than ANYONE, by far (how many times has another poster questioned whether YOU’RE actually a Christian?).
If 'Christian' = worshipping Jesus as יהוה God (Acts 11:26 original meaning), would 'Christian' truly describe your belief ideas about Jesus ?
If 'Christian' includes later historical use/abuse (e.g. 'Christian' Crusades), then 'Christian' label fits (while remembering Matthew 7:21-23)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus From my view, your belief idea about Jewish religious leader belief reaction to יהוה expressions by Jesus is unbelievable (incredulous) along with contradicting Luke 22:67 text that shows a lack of respect for the words of יהוה Jesus. Matthew 23:27-28 (LEB) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees—hypocrites!—because you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and of everything unclean! In the same way, on the outside you also appear righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
@Bill_Coley I simply replayed YOUR argument in the matter and made no reference to Jesus' words. YOU argued that the religious leaders must have been right when they pursued Jesus' execution on the grounds that he had claimed to be God, among other reasons, because they would not have wanted to violate the command against murder. So I substituted one command (against bearing false witness) for another (against murder) and repurposed YOUR argument. I made no mention of Jesus' words found in Luke 22.67.
Huh ? as reading replay description sounds like what you wanted replay argumentation to be (with bent idea twists), which inaccurately summarizes my actual replies. Sad for a skilled debator being unable to accurately express opponent's idea in a way that opponent agrees.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Looking in Lexham Hebrew Bible at Jeremiah 23:5-6 finds יהוה naming יהוה צדקנו that simply disagrees with your faith idea "That's not what the text says." (lacks your faith perspective qualifier in appeal to an unnamed authority while my authority is יהוה inspired original language text).
Regardless of the authority we each cite - "unnamed" or "יהוה inspired" - the Jeremiah 23 text does NOT say that the davidic descendant of v.5 will be God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus יהוה does not give יהוה name to anyone else (Isaiah 42:8), which is also true of צדקנו (Righteousness We).
@Bill_Coley And יהוה doesn't give that name to Jesus, either.
Idea 'And יהוה doesn't give that name to Jesus, either.' expresses personal faith belief that publicly denies Jesus is יהוה Lord (Matthew 10:32-33).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Repeating idea "the Jeremiah 23 text does NOT say that the davidic descendant of v.5 will be God." expresses faith belief that does NOT want to see what the text truly says in Jeremiah 23:5-6, confirmed when human physical body of יהוה Jesus (Son) was resurrected to live forever as יהוה King Righteousness, at the right hand of יהוה Father on יהוה throne in Holy Heaven.
@Bill_Coley No. My claim about the Jeremiah 23 text expresses my belief about what the text actually says... and doesn't say.
What contextual words disconnect branch from יהוה naming in Jeremiah 23:5-6 (LEB) “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘Yahweh יהוה is צדקנו our righteousness.’
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Only יהוה has the authority to forgive sins against יהוה. Matthew 9:1-8 includes some contemporary Biblical Scholars, scribes, in the time of יהוה Jesus thinking Jesus cursed יהוה Lord, blasphemed, by saying “Have courage, child, your sins are forgiven.” that is followed by יהוה words spoken through יהוה Jesus as a question: "Which is easier ? ..." followed by יהוה Jesus healing paralytic to rise up from stretcher and walk to glorify יהוה.
@Bill_Coley You make the Pharisees' argument! They tell Jesus that only God can forgive sins (Mark 2.7). In response, Jesus tells them that he has - we can safely surmise because God has given it to him - the authority to forgive sins (Mark 2.10; c.f. John 13.3).
Noted יהוה "Son of Man"deity expression by Jesus in Mark 2:1-12 (using third person style of speech). John 13:3 is consistent with יהוה Jesus experiencing יהוה Glory & Love at יהוה The Father's side before יהוה created physical world so יהוה Jesus came from יהוה God in Holy Heaven (above) to earth and was returning to יהוה God in Heaven to rule as King Righteousness צדקנו יהוה as foretold in Jeremiah 23:5-6
@Bill_Coley Notice the language: Jesus has "the authority" to take up his life again. Where does that authority come from? John 13.3 says it comes from what God has given Jesus. John 12.49 repeats his view that Jesus operates on authority from God. If that's your point, I agree.
Concur יהוה authority (The Word quality being יהוה as stated in John 1:1c) gives יהוה Jesus free will choice to lay down his life & take it up again.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus יהוה Truth is consistent. Please provide Scripture text(s) that simply say "The Bible does NOT say Jesus is God." [doubtful faith conclusion is offered as fact without any supporting Scripture text evidence] & Idea "[And by the way, that IS my personal faith claim... because it's true.]" reminds me of Judges 21:25 ... each one did what was right in his own eyes. [as faith belief filters text so only want to see in the text what believe can be].
@Bill_Coley There is no such verse. But then again, there is no verse that says Jesus was not a kumquat. I guess that means Jesus might have been a kumquat?
@Bill_Coley There were COUNTLESS things Jesus was "not." But there aren't verses that identify all those countless things. I contend that were Jesus God, Jesus would have told us so, but he didn't... and other New Testament writers would have told us so, but they didn't. It's FAR, FAR, FAR more probative that no text says Jesus was God than it is that no text says "the Bible does NOT say Jesus is God."
Relevant difference is hermeneutical handling as non-scriptural 'probative idea' appears as immoveable filter of Scripture text that deliberately does not want to see what Scripture truly says about Jesus being יהוה God (so does not know what pre-existance of Jesus in John 17:7 & John 17:24 means, along with יהוה Father speaking from Heaven to identity יהוה Jesus as "My Son" in Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22, Luke 9:35, & 2 Peter 1:17 that fulfills Psalm 2:7 "today", plus discards Philippians 2:5-11 Jesus being God & יהוה Lord, also asserts "I AM" is always simple indentification, but Jewish leader reaction was wanting to kill Jesus in John 8:31-59 & again wanting to stone Jesus in John 10:22-42 for blasphemy, additionally believing Jewish religous leaders were mistaken according to Jewish law that Jesus should die for who יהוה Jesus claimed to be, and disrespectfully states יהוה naming of King David's descendant as יהוה צדקנו in Jeremiah 23:5-6 as not being in Scripture, as well as denying "My Lord and My God" spoken by Thomas in John 20:28 ...). Without Scripture basis, 'probative idea' is really FAR, FAR, FAR more personal belief idea about what NOT to believe in Scripture text (while using third person deceptive description: "the text themselves say").
If Jesus is truly יהוה (beside/in יהוה Father), would יהוה צדקנו He be righteously angry with one probatively teaching Jesus is not יהוה ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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Noted יהוה "Son of Man" deity expression by Jesus in Mark 2:1-12 (using third person style of speech). John 13:3 is consistent with יהוה Jesus experiencing יהוה Glory & Love at יהוה The Father's side before יהוה created physical world so יהוה Jesus came from יהוה God in Holy Heaven (above) to earth and was returning to יהוה God in Heaven to rule as King Righteousness צדקנויהוה as foretold in Jeremiah 23:5-6
You have multiple יהוה (Lord Gods) .... => polytheism. In the above paragraph you already mention 5 יהוה : (a) יהוה "Son of Man", (b) יהוה Jesus, (c) יהוה , (d) יהוה The Father, (e) יהוה God in Heaven
Your assumptions about the term יהוה always meaning YHWH/God is false and thereby you then produce a polytheistic theology and all your claims that these multiple יהוה Gods are actually not multiple but only one singular "God" are only self-contradictory "excuses" for your initial false premise.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Noted יהוה "Son of Man" deity expression by Jesus in Mark 2:1-12 (using third person style of speech). John 13:3 is consistent with יהוה Jesus experiencing יהוה Glory & Love at יהוה The Father's side before יהוה created physical world so יהוה Jesus came from יהוה God in Holy Heaven (above) to earth and was returning to יהוה God in Heaven to rule as King Righteousness צדקנויהוה as foretold in Jeremiah 23:5-6
@Wolfgang You have multiple יהוה (Lord Gods) .... => polytheism. In the above paragraph you already mention 5 יהוה : (a) יהוה "Son of Man", (b) יהוה Jesus, (c) יהוה , (d) יהוה The Father, (e) יהוה God in Heaven
@Wolfgang Your assumptions about the term יהוה always meaning YHWH/God is false and thereby you then produce a polytheistic theology and all your claims that these multiple יהוה Gods are actually not multiple but only one singular "God" are only self-contradictory "excuses" for your initial false premise.
שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהוָ֥ה׀ אֶחָֽד׃ Sh’ma Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad ['Hear & Obey' Isra’el! Adonai 'Plural God of us' Adonai unique]
Uniqueness (echad) of יהוה includes three (plural) distinct voices for expressing/experiencing One unified Holy Righteous יהוה Love: The Will (Father), The Word (Son), Breath The Holy while Spirtually always being One unified God: who was, who is, who is to come. Thankful for variety of God naming descriptions in יהוה inspired Scripture: a worthwhile Bible study to learn more about יהוה is the Names of God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Puzzling. Phrase "Who was, and is, and is to come" is the meaning of Lord God's most Holy Name YHWH יְהוָ֥ה (spoken by Lord God to Moses in Exodus 3:14).
@YourTruthGod Exodus 3:14 doesn't say "Who was, and is, and is to come".
@YourTruthGod This is what Exodus 3:14 says: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Thankful for "The Biblical Hebrew Companion for Bible Software Users: Grammatical Terms Explained for Exegesis" insight about Exodus 3:14
Imperfect Conjugation
What It Does
The Imperfect conjugation indicates that the action of the verb is not complete. We usually indicate this incomplete action in English by the present or future tenses. The incomplete action signaled by the Imperfect conjugation may also be habitual or customary action. For example, the verbal phrase “used to sell” in the sentence “I used to sell magazines door-to-door” would be indicated in Hebrew by the Imperfect conjugation because the action, even though it took place in the past, was ongoing. It is also important to note that a verb in the Imperfect conjugation may be translated with a modal value, that is, preceded by “would,” “could,” “should,” “may,” “might,” and so forth. Context is the ultimate determining factor for which one of these translational options applies.
An Exegetical Insight
In Exodus 3:14 Moses asks God to tell him what to say to the people when they ask who sent Moses to them. God tells Moses, “This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘[אֶהְיֶה] has sent me to you.’ ” The three-consonant root היה (meaning “to be”) has an א in front of it, indicating that it is a 1cs Imperfect verb, so the subject of the verb is “I.” But how should we translate the verbal idea? “I will be”? “I am”? “I have been”? The answer is yes, yes, and yes. Because the basic sense of the verb is “to exist,” and God has always existed and always will exist, the Imperfect verb includes all of these senses. Indeed, elsewhere God describes himself as “the Alpha and Omega … who is, and who was, and who is to come” (Revelation 1:8).
In English, however, our verbal system operates on the basis of time, unlike the Hebrew verbal system, which operates on the basis of whether or not the action is regarded as completed. So how can we translate this Hebrew verb that indicates continuing existence unrestricted by time into the English language, where action is expressed in terms of the time in which it occurs? Well, we do the best we can. Most English translations opt for the present tense and render the designation God gives himself as “I am.” Recognizing the significance of the Hebrew Imperfect conjugation, however, gives the reader the advantage of seeing that God is describing himself not just as being present then, but rather as being continually present. The omnipresence of God is an essential foundation of a believer’s confidence. And it provides a greater depth of understanding for the “I am” in the words of the Son of God at the end of Matthew’s gospel (28:20): “And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Perfect Conjugation
What It Does
The Perfect conjugation indicates that the action of the verb is viewed in its entirety, usually corresponding to completed action. Because the Hebrew verbal system is not based on time, as is the English verbal system, the completed action envisioned may be in the past, present, or future. However, most often the completed action of the Perfect conjugation is translated by the English past (he ate), perfect (he has eaten), or pluperfect (he had eaten). But verbs in the Perfect conjugation that indicate mental activity or disposition may also be translated in the present tense. Once again, context is the ultimate determining factor for which one of these translational options applies.
An Exegetical Insight
It is sometimes difficult to capture the sense of the Hebrew verb, which views the action in terms of its being complete or incomplete, by an English verb, which views the action in terms of the time in which it takes place. If we use the present tense in English, that leaves open the possibility that the verbal action being specified did not also take place in the past. For example, the statement “I like the taste of coffee” leaves open the possibility that such was not always the case. Knowing how the Hebrew verbal system works can help us to avoid such misinterpretations.
Consider, for example, Genesis 22:2, where God directs Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. God tells Abraham, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love [אָהַבְתָּ]—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah.” We can tell by its ending (תָּ) that the indicated verb is in the Perfect conjugation, 2ms. But what is the best translation? Because it refers to mental activity or disposition (in this case, love), the verb may be translated in the present tense. But a verb in the Perfect conjugation may also be translated in the past, perfect, or pluperfect tense. So, does the verb in this case mean that Abraham “loves,” “loved,” “has loved,” or “had loved” his son, Isaac? Unlike English, the Hebrew verb does not refer primarily to the time of the action, but to the perspective of the action. In this case, Abraham’s love for Isaac is not restricted to a specific time. It is true that Abraham currently loves Isaac, but he has always loved Isaac and always will. It is the fact of Abraham’s love that is the focus, not when it exists. That timeless love is hard to express in English, but rewarding to ponder when we consider God’s love for us expressed in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the son whom He loves/loved/has loved.
Thankful to be learning Hebrew grammatical concepts 😍
Keep Smiling 😊
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