Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?

A number of CD replies by @Wolfgang & @Bill_Coley have asserted an idea that Jesus is not God so searched New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update using Logos Bible Software for "not ... God" usage near Jesus:

(not BEFORE 2 WORDS God) WITHIN 7 WORDS (Jesus,Christ,<Person Jesus>)

that found four verses: John 9:16, John 9:33, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 9 (noted only one Bible author so assertion about Jesus not being God by other authors plainly lacks verses to consider).

John chapter 9 tells about the man born blind being healed by Jesus, which includes verse 16 "Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

 New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Jn 9:16.

Pharisees were professional scripture students, whose letter of the law memorization included Exodus 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

 New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Ex 31:15.

John 9:33 is the healed man responding to the Pharisees. 1 John 4:3 pericope context is 1 John 4:1-6 about Testing the Spirits. 2 John 9 pericope context is the entire letter. John documented some Pharisees believed Jesus is not from God while the other verses plainly do not match @Wolfgang & @Bill_Coley assertions about the diety of Jesus.

The ending of John chapter 9 (verses 35-41) include Jesus asking the healed man if he believes in the "Son of Man" (that is a diety term for Jesus referring to Daniel 7:13-14) followed by the healed man worshipping Jesus (without being rebuked by Jesus).

If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is sin (Ex 20:5 , Dt 5:9), which disqualifies Jesus from being savior for anyone.

If Jesus is God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is not sin (and appropriate).

Keep Smiling ๏ปฟ๐Ÿ˜€๏ปฟ

ยซ1345678

Comments

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    Thanks for this info!

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959
    edited April 20

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:

    A number of CD replies by @Wolfgang & @Bill_Coley have asserted an idea that Jesus is not God so searched New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update using Logos Bible Software for "not ... God" usage near Jesus:

    (not BEFORE 2 WORDS God) WITHIN 7 WORDS (Jesus,Christ,<Person Jesus>)

    that found four verses: John 9:16, John 9:33, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 9 (noted only one Bible author so assertion about Jesus not being God by other authors plainly lacks verses to consider).

    your search is simply unreasonable, as you are really searching for a phrasing ("Jesus is not God") that anyone here would tell you doesn't exist in Scripture. So you tried to perhaps include a wider search possibility by your "within 7 words" qualifier ... and got 4 results which actually have nothing to do with what you were looking to find.

    In John 9, the Pharisees clearly identified Jesus as A MAN ... who they claimed was "not FROM God", in other words they rejected the idea that the man Jesus was sent from or commissioned by God. This has nothing whatever to do with any idea of Jesus is God or Jesus is not God in the first place. As I have pointed out before, and as I will point out again (even if being yelled at or banned here) IF YOU would read more carefully and understand correctly what is simply written, you would not have missed that point.

    1 John 4:3 pericope context is 1 John 4:1-6 about Testing the Spirits. 2 John 9 pericope context is the entire letter. John documented some Pharisees believed Jesus is not from God while the other verses plainly do not match @Wolfgang & @Bill_Coley assertions about the diety of Jesus.

    See above ... the verses in 1John 4 have nothing whatever to do with the idea of Jesus is God, but instead rather clearly make a distinction between Jesus and God ... because (again, if you gave it some simple plain thought) obviously "God" cannot be "FROM God".

    2 John 9 again is as plain as day in distinguishing between Jesus and God.

    Your claims about what I (and Bill) have shown many times over from Scripture is just false ... actually, your claims indicate that you must nor have carefully read what we wrote.

    If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is sin (Ex 20:5 , Dt 5:9), which disqualifies Jesus from being savior for anyone.

    Jesus NEVER received worship for God or worship as God!! Your ignorance of the meaning of the word "worship" as used in different contexts in Scripture is showing ... for example, kings are worshiped without it being a sin, why? because they were simply worshiped AS KING and not as God. By the way, let's see, if you carefully read what I write ... I worship my wife ... am I a sinner and idolator?

    If Jesus is God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is not sin (and appropriate).

    The exact opposite would be true ... if the man Jesus was worshiped as God, he would be made a second God, and the one worshiping anyone in addition to God (the Father, the Creator, the Almighty. etc) as God would be the idolator.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959

    Here's some information and definition of the word translated "worship" from the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon

    4352 προσκυνฮญω [proskuneo /pros·koo·neh·o/] v. From 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); TDNT 6:758; TDNTA 948; GK 4686; 60 occurrences; AV translates as “worship” 60 times. 1 to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence. 2 among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence. 3 in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. 3A used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank. 3A1 to the Jewish high priests. 3A2 to God. 3A3 to Christ. 3A4 to heavenly beings. 3A5 to demons.

    Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

    You can find the same information in other Greek lexicons as well

    It should be obvious that the word does NOT always mean "to worship as God" ... as in the case of people in Scripture who are said to "worship" Jesus Christ. They were not Trinity dogma indoctrinated and were simply showing reverence to Jesus as the Messiah, as the Son of man, as the Son of God ... but in no instance did anyone of them consider themselves to be worshiping God !! (Quite obviously they knew that God is INVISIBLE ... and they also knew that Jesus in front of them was VISIBLE.

  • @Wolfgang wrote: your search is simply unreasonable, as you are really searching for a phrasing ("Jesus is not God") that anyone here would tell you doesn't exist in Scripture. So you tried to perhaps include a wider search possibility by your "within 7 words" qualifier ... and got 4 results which actually have nothing to do with what you were looking to find.

    From 1 Thessalonians 5:21 personally have learned to "test everything - hold onto what is good". Testing Biblical idea that "Jesus is not God" finds no evidence in the Bible so the idea is not good. Testing Biblical idea for more than One God to Love also finds nothing. In contrast, searching for One God to Love finds One Godhead commUnity of Love with three voices sharing one essence (heart, soul, & strength). Three voices demonstrate God's Love plus enables believers to become united in God ๐Ÿ˜ Love community design enabled God to be ruling in heaven (God the Father) while The Eternal Word (God the Son) became a human by Holy Spirit (God) miracle in one cell inside Mary that combined God & Man for virgin birth with subsequent sinless sacrifice to atone for all sins in this world. Thankful can Rejoice with God in the Resurrection ๐Ÿ˜

    @Wolfgang wrote: 2 John 9 again is as plain as day in distinguishing between Jesus and God.

    Please elaborate what plainly distinguishes Jesus and God.

    My understanding of 2 John 9 has a personal Love relationship with Jesus Christ including Loving relationship with God the Father (in One Godhead commUnity). Lacking a Love relationship with Jesus Christ also lacks Loving relationship with God the Father.

    @Wolfgang wrote: Jesus NEVER received worship for God or worship as God!! 

    After Jesus walked on water, the disciples in the boat worshipped Him - Matthew 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!

     New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mt 14:33.

    John 20:19-29 includes Thomas declaring "My Lord and My God!" to Jesus (in verse 28). Personally looking forward to being in the Holy presence of Jesus so can fall on my knees to Lovingly Worship Jesus (Yeshua) as My Lord & My God as described in Philippians 2:10-11 that glorifies God the Father.

    @Wolfgang wrote: Your claims about what I (and Bill) have shown many times over from Scripture is just false ... actually, your claims indicate that you must nor have carefully read what we wrote.

    The Virgin Birth: Miracle, Heresy or Cover-up? discussion lacks your response to my comment on 6 April => https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/13307/#Comment_13307 that included two Biblical examples (e.g. Jesus is God "from above") while https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/13388/#Comment_13388 includes

    @Wolfgang wrote: None of these 4 passages teaches that Jesus Christ is God / the Deity of Jesus Christ ... as I have mentioned many times before, a careful reading of the texts and their context clearly shows this truth.

    Personally puzzled by your "careful" reading of Scripture texts that does not see the Truth about the Diety of Jesus Christ in them (appears belief filter prevents plain understanding). While the phrase "Jesus is God" does not appear in the New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update, searching Logos Bible Software for:

    (Jesus,Christ,<Person Jesus>) WITHIN 2 WORDS (God,<Person God>,"I AM")

    finds 381 verses, which includes crucifixion where mockers remembered what Jesus had spoken about Himself in Matthew 27:43 “He trusts in God; let God rescue Him now, if He delights in Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ ”

     New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mt 27:43.

    What frightened professional soldiers who were guarding the execution of Jesus ? Matthew 27:54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!

     New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mt 27:54.

    Jesus words include Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

     New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mk 8:38.

    Jesus used the phrase "the Son of Man" for Diety description of Himself as prophesied in Daniel 7:13-14 (and shows my digital search could be expanded to include more verses about the Diety of Jesus). Caveat: digital search is imperfect since human developers have their own belief filters plus human ability to make mistakes. Yet digital search can be very helpful to find Biblical verses for serious consideration (plus team development tends to reduce individual belief bias).

    Keep Smiling ๐Ÿ˜€

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,591
    edited April 21

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    A number of CD replies by @Wolfgang & @Bill_Coley have asserted an idea that Jesus is not God so searched New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update using Logos Bible Software for "not ... God" usage near Jesus:

    @Wolfgang has already offered a substantive response to your post, so what I'm about to provide will unavoidably have some overlap with his basic arguments.


    Some observations:

    • Nowhere in the NT does any writer say "Jesus is not God." Then again, nowhere does any writer say "Jesus is not a fruit fly." Does the absence of such language mean Jesus might be a fruit fly? No. In my view, NT writers don't even contemplate using the phrase "Jesus is not God" because the thought that he might be God in the first place doesn't occur to them. Why declare something not to be true when you have no reason to believe it's true?
    • I agree with Wolfgang's interpretation of the "worship" of Jesus that happens in the Gospels.


    As to the verses specified in your OP:

    • John 9.16 - As Wolfgang noted, the Pharisees 1) refer to Jesus as "a man," 2) say only that Jesus is not "from" God. They make no claim that Jesus is God. Note that they accuse him of working on the Sabbath, something someone "from" God - or any godly "man" - would not do.
    • John 9.33 - The man born blind to whom Jesus has returned sight contends that Jesus is from God; he does not contend that Jesus IS God. We get a clear sense of that in John 9.31, where the healed man appears to assert that God has heard Jesus because Jesus has worshiped God and obeyed God's will. In my view, the verse's distinction between God and Jesus is undeniable.
    • 1 John 4.3 - Here we get a different deployment of the "from God" imagery. John says a person who does not acknowledge that Jesus was a real person is not "from God." John clearly does not mean that people who DO acknowledge Jesus are God; rather, they are "from God."
    • 2 John 9 - Another verse concerning what must have been a controversy over whether Jesus was a physical human being. At stake for people who accept the reality of Jesus is a relationship with both God (the "Father") and Jesus (the "Son") [See 2 John 3, where John defines God as "the Father" and Jesus as "the Son"]
    • Daniel 7.13 / John 9.35-41 - Notice that "son of man" in the Daniel verse is NOT capitalized, adding credence to my contention that the one referenced in this verse is NOT a deity; he is rather like a human... to whom God gives dominion and glory and a kingdom. There is NOTHING in the Daniel verse that suggests the "son of man" is also God. That role belongs solely to the "Ancient of Days." Note also that in John 6.27-29, Jesus makes clear that the Son of Man is the one on whom God has set God's seal (v.27), and that the "work of God" is to believe in the one God has sent, who is Jesus. (v.29) The one sent is not the same as the one who does the sending.

    With due respect, there is nothing in any of these verses, or any of the verses you cite in your subsequent post, that contends Jesus is God. Quite the contrary, in my view, the verses by and large support the view that Jesus is NOT God (he is, for example, the "Son of God").


    Testing Biblical idea that "Jesus is not God" finds no evidence in the Bible so the idea is not good.

    I strongly disagree. For example - and there are literally scores of verses I could cite - the text from which I'm preaching my Easter Sunday sermon is the John 20 story of Mary's encounter with the risen Jesus. In John 20.17, Jesus tells Mary not to cling to him, and to tell the disciples that he is "ascending to (his) Father and (the disciples') Father, to (his) God and (the disciples') God.”

    What meaning can we take from that verse as to how Jesus understands the "Father" other than that God is "Father," that he (Jesus) is NOT that God, and God is "Father" to the disciples at least in SOME way(s) just as God is "Father" to Jesus. Further, Jesus says that his "God" is also the disciples' God? How can that mean anything other than that Jesus does NOT believe himself to be God? If Jesus believed himself to be God, why would he tell the disciples that he expected to ascend to the one who was God to both himself and the disciples?


    Wolfgang and I share a practice of dealing directly and without evasion or distraction with the verses/passages others propose in our Trinity exchanges. We have done so here in this thread with the many verses you have cited. Please return the kindness now by dealing directly and without evasion or distraction with the just two verses/passages:

    John 20.17, ESV

    17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”

    Acts 2.22-24, ESV

    22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

    In John 20, what does Jesus mean by ascending to his and the disciples' God? In Acts 2, what does Peter mean when he calls Jesus a "man" God had raised, through whom God had done "mighty works and wonders and signs"? Don't both of those verses/passages give far more support to the contention that Jesus was NOT God than to the contention that Jesus WAS God?

    Post edited by Bill_Coley on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959
    edited April 21

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:

    From 1 Thessalonians 5:21 personally have learned to "test everything - hold onto what is good". Testing Biblical idea that "Jesus is not God" finds no evidence in the Bible so the idea is not good.

    You yourself provided 3 passages which provide rather clear evidence that Jesus is NOT God ... that he was A MAN, that he is God's Son and NOT God Himself.

    All your long winded many sweet words talk of a love union in the Godhead etc etc is nothing but smoke and mirrors wherewith the verses you yourself quote are robbed of their simple plain forward meaning. You are not holding to the plain teaching of Scripture but rather to your own somewhat fancy ideas

    After Jesus walked on water, the disciples in the boat worshipped Him - Matthew 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!

    And where did the disciples declare "You are certainly GOD!" ??? What did they declare, Mr. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus ?? As what then did they show reverence / worship Jesus ???

    Personally puzzled by your "careful" reading of Scripture texts that does not see the Truth about the Diety of Jesus Christ in them (appears belief filter prevents plain understanding). While the phrase "Jesus is God" does not appear in the New American Standard Bible: 1995

    Why are you not puzzled about YOUR believing and teaching something (Jesus is God) that is NOT found in the Bible?

    Update, searching Logos Bible Software for:

    (Jesus,Christ,<Person Jesus>) WITHIN 2 WORDS (God,<Person God>,"I AM")

    finds 381 verses, which includes crucifixion where mockers remembered what Jesus had spoken about Himself in Matthew 27:43He trusts in God; let God rescue Him now, if He delights in Him; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ ”

     New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mt 27:43.

    What frightened professional soldiers who were guarding the execution of Jesus ? Matthew 27:54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!

    And YOU, Mr. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus are teaching that the soldiers said "Truly this was God, the Son" ...is that what they said? No! Or are you putting yourself perhaps above the Biblical writer and consider him to have lied and not truly recorded the soldiers' words, so you - who apparently thinks you know better - must correct the text???

    Jesus used the phrase "the Son of Man" for Diety description of Himself as prophesied in Daniel 7:13-14 (and shows my digital search could be expanded to include more verses about the Diety of Jesus).

    Again, you are providing phantasy interpretation rather than what the text in Dan 7:13-14 states and teaches ...

    By the way, something good for your to hold on to => "Deity" is NOT spelled "diety" - a diet relates to things that are usually eaten.

  • PagesPages Posts: 65

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    "...Jesus receiving worship..."

    The passing reference you make at the end regarding the relationship of worship and Jesus brings to mind a few thoughts I would like to share briefly.   

    A quick aside: the majority of uses of the lexeme προσκυνฮญω in the LXX have to do with worship of God or that of false god’s. I mention this, seeing that the LXX was the translation widely used within the second temple period and early Christianity, the majority of OT quotations by NT writers are from LXX renderings, and that word usage in the NT would be most naturally informed by that of the LXX.  

    However, worship in it’s broadest scope entails more than whether the προσκυνฮญω word group is used in a text and how it is to be defined, as there is the necessary recognition of other elements involved under the category worship; for example, we would realize that the Lord’s Supper, singing of hymns/praise or the offering of prayer either to, or in the name of Jesus – are, in fact, exhibiting worship.  

    By way of illustration, church services today begin by hymns of praise and prayer to God and Jesus – this is considered the beginning and initial part of a worship service, with sermon and prayer concluding this worship. I would say, from New Testament and early church documents, that this was the similar case for the early Christians as well.  

    From historical writings – mid-third century to early second century:

    1. Origen (Contra Celsus CHAP. LXVII. c. 248), who says:  “We sing hymns to the Most High alone, and His Only Begotten, who is the Word and God;”  (Philip Schaff, Ante-Nicene Christianity, History Of The Christian Church 2; Accordance electronic ed. 8 vols.; (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1910), paragraph 7456.)

    2. “For we worship this one, who is the Son of God,” (“τοแฟฆτον μแฝฒν γแฝฐρ υแผฑแฝธν แฝ„ντα τοแฟฆ θεοแฟฆ προσκυνοแฟฆμεν,”) (Mpolycarp 17:3 AF) (c. 157))

    3. Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan (c. 111) excerpt:  “the Christians assembled on an appointed day (Sunday) at sunrise, sang responsively a song to Christ as to God” (Philip Schaff, Ante-Nicene Christianity, History Of The Christian Church 2; Accordance electronic ed. 8 vols.; (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1910), paragraph 6151.)

    From the New Testament – middle to late first century:

    1. “And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, (καแฝถ προσευξฮฌμενοι εแผถπαν· σแฝบ κฯριε (NA28)) who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen” (Acts 1:24 ESV)

    (προσεฯχομαι impf. προσηυχฯŒμην; fut. προσεฯξομαι; 1 aor. προσηυξฮฌμην (on the augment s. W-H., App. 162; Tdf., Prol. 121; B-D-F §67, 1; Mlt-H. 191f) mid. dep. to petition deity, pray (“προσεฯχομαι,” BDAG, 879.))

    2. “And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, (καแฝถ แผλιθοβฯŒλουν τแฝธν Στฮญφανον แผπικαλοฯμενον καแฝถ λฮญγοντα· κฯριε แผธησοแฟฆ, (NA28)) receive my spirit.” 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” (Acts 7:59–60 ESV)

    (1. to call upon deity for any purpose (‘invoke’ Hdt. 2, 39; 3, 8) to call upon, call out 1 Cl 39:7 (Job 5:1). (“แผπικαλฮญω,” BDAG, 373.))

    3. “While they were worshiping the Lord (Λειτουργοฯντων δแฝฒ αแฝτแฟถν τแฟท κυρฮฏแฟณ (NA28)) and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”” (Acts 13:2 ESV)

    (λειτουργฮญω; λειτουργฮฏα, ας f: to perform religious rites as part of one’s religious duties or as the result of one’s role — ‘to perform religious duties, to carry out religious rites. (“λειτουργฮญω λειτουργฮฏα,” L&N, 533.))

    4. “If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come! 23 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. 24 My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.” (1 Cor. 16:22–24 ESV) 

    Written within these early years of Christianity (c. 50-248) the above examples clearly demonstrate worship, under the fullest sense, being given to our Lord Jesus – a worship that is appropriate for Deity alone. 

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,591


    @Pages posted:

    Written within these early years of Christianity (c. 50-248) the above examples clearly demonstrate worship, under the fullest sense, being given to our Lord Jesus – a worship that is appropriate for Deity alone.

    And yet, the very first appearance of the word "worship" in the New Testament occurs in Matthew 2.2, where some astrologers express their intention to "worship" the baby Jesus (an intention completed in Matthew 2.11). In Matthew 2.6 we learn those astrologers journeyed NOT to find deity, but to find "the king of the Jews," one who fulfilled the prophet Micah's word from God that from Bethlehem would come "a ruler who will shepherd (God's) people Israel." King Herod adds his desire to "worship" this newborn king in Matthew 2.8. In my view, these texts make clear that neither the astrologers nor Herod believed they were seeking to "worship" deity.


    Another dimension of this matter is the magnitude of the witness of the Gospels writ large. There are many, many Gospel verses/passages whose most sensible interpretation is that Jesus did not believe himself to be God. I'll cite four here:

    • Matthew 26.39 - Jesus chooses his Father's will over his own will, after making clear that his own will is different from his Father's will. If Jesus believed himself to be God, how could his will have ever diverged from his Father's?
    • John 5.19-20 - Jesus says he can't do anything on his own; he can only do what the Father shows him. It is the Father who will show Jesus how to do works greater than healings (MT 5.20)
    • Mark 5.18 - Jesus rejects a rich man's characterization of him as "good" because "No one is good except God alone."
    • John 20.17 - The resurrected Jesus directs Mary to tell the disciples that he is ascending to his AND their Father and God. That is, Jesus' Father and God are the same as the disciples' Father and God.
    • Matthew 27.46 - From the cross Jesus cries out the question, "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" Again, Jesus believes he has a God.


    And there are also the many references from Peter and Paul in the NT letters where the most sensible meaning is again that Jesus was not God. (e.g. Acts 2.22-24)


    I accept that the word "worship" most often refers to deity. But in the Gospels and the NT writ large, in my view, the vast majority of verses/passes most sensibly are interpreted to mean Jesus is not God, which means any "worship" offered to him before he was glorified was something other than deity worship.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959

    @Pages wrote

    Written within these early years of Christianity (c. 50-248) the above examples clearly demonstrate worship, under the fullest sense, being given to our Lord Jesus – a worship that is appropriate for Deity alone.

    So then, Peter was wrong, when he stated that the Lord Jesus was A MAN (cp. Acts 2:22 - "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: ") ... and so was Paul (cp. 1 Tim 2:5 - "For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Actually, none of the 4 passages you list from the NT scriptures says anything about people worshiping Jesus Christ AS GOD (DEITY) ... only YOUR interpretation of certain word meanings without considering the context of the passage and other very clear passages - such as the two I mentioned above - appears to give the idea about Jesus is Deity/God which you have in your mind.

    The very plain truth of Scripture is that a man can NOT be God, and that God is NOT a man. Scripture is also very plain regarding the truth that Christ Jesus is A MAN. Simple, very simple ...

  • @Bill_Coley wrote: Nowhere in the NT does any writer say "Jesus is not God." Then again, nowhere does any writer say "Jesus is not a fruit fly." Does the absence of such language mean Jesus might be a fruit fly? No. In my view, NT writers don't even contemplate using the phrase "Jesus is not God" because the thought that he might be God in the first place doesn't occur to them. Why declare something not to be true when you have no reason to believe it's true?

    Appreciate depth of belief insight that reminds me of Jeremiah 17:9-10 (NLT) “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I, ื™ื”ื•ื”the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.” 

    Logos Bible Software Hebrew & Greek Discourse features includes emphasis (linguistic placement for importance). Also can search reverse interlinear text for a Hebrew lemma so can Bold text plus insert Hebrew: e.g. ื™ื”ื•ื” ืึธื“ื•ึนืŸ

    The phrase "fruit fly" does not appear in the Bible so have no reason to contemplate it. In contrast, the Bible has over a thousand verses about "not ... God" while none of them apply to Jesus. Also the Bible has numerous verses about God that plainly apply to Jesus: e.g. Isaiah 7:14 (NLT) All right then, the ืึธื“ื•ึนืŸLord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God is with us’).

    Prophetic fulfillment is recorded in Matthew 1:22-23 Immanuel and John 1:1-18, especially verse 14 (NLT) So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son. 

    @Bill_Coley wrote: As to the verses specified in your OP:

    The first four verses in my OP (all written by John) came from my Bible search attempt to find "not ... God" with applicability to Jesus, which none of them do.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: John 9.16 - As Wolfgang noted, the Pharisees 1) refer to Jesus as "a man," 2) say only that Jesus is not "from" God. They make no claim that Jesus is God. Note that they accuse him of working on the Sabbath, something someone "from" God - or any godly "man" - would not do.

    Some Pharisees show incredible depth of heart deceitfulness. Matthew 9:34 and 12:24 record some Pharisees believed Jesus received supernatural power from below (ruler of the demons) instead of above (God in heaven & on earth in Jesus).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: John 9.33 - The man born blind to whom Jesus has returned sight contends that Jesus is from God; he does not contend that Jesus IS God. We get a clear sense of that in John 9.31, where the healed man appears to assert that God has heard Jesus because Jesus has worshiped God and obeyed God's will. In my view, the verse's distinction between God and Jesus is undeniable.

    Please elaborate what is distinct between God and Jesus in your view ? Also what is significant about distinction(s) ?

    From my perspective, Loving commUnity of One God includes Jesus, who was both fully human and fully God. To me, what is distinct in Jesus (God the Son) from God the Father and Holy Spirit is their voices and roles in the Loving commUnity of God, which has One Heart, One Soul, One Strength (intimately & intensely shared by three voices so they truly Love each other). Humanly trying to imagine God's Love that does not seek its own without three voices is incredibly challenging (single voice lacks ability to richly express aspects of True Love that desires the Best for another).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Daniel 7.13 / John 9.35-41 - Notice that "son of man" in the Daniel verse is NOT capitalized, adding credence to my contention that the one referenced in this verse is NOT a deity; he is rather like a human... to whom God gives dominion and glory and a kingdom. There is NOTHING in the Daniel verse that suggests the "son of man" is also God. That role belongs solely to the "Ancient of Days." Note also that in John 6.27-29, Jesus makes clear that the Son of Man is the one on whom God has set God's seal (v.27), and that the "work of God" is to believe in the one God has sent, who is Jesus. (v.29) The one sent is not the same as the one who does the sending.

    OP had 'The ending of John chapter 9 (verses 35-41) include Jesus asking the healed man if he believes in the "Son of Man" (that is a diety term for Jesus referring to Daniel 7:13-14) followed by the healed man worshipping Jesus (without being rebuked by Jesus).' Daniel 7:14 shows "Son of Man" in Daniel 7:13 is an eternal ruler, which is God (with parallel in Revelation 14:14 wearing a gold crown). Two titles for Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Compare 1 Timothy 6:15, Revelation 17:14 and 19:16 with Deuteronomy 10:17 and Psalms 136:3

    @Wolfgang wrote: By the way, something good for your to hold on to => "Deity" is NOT spelled "diety" - a diet relates to things that are usually eaten.

    Concur my human spell checker/typing needs improvement. Thankful God answers my diet prayer: "Give us this day our daily bread."

    Capitalization is a human convention to aid in worship of God (not in original language autographs). Concur Daniel 7:13 has "son of man" while NT words of Jesus have "Son of Man" that is a bit puzzling for inconsistency, especially when Bible includes cross reference from NT to Daniel 7. Complete Jewish Study Bible has an article for Mark 2:28 "Is the Messiah the Son of God or the Son of Man ... or Both ?" that ends with: 'So when the term "Son of Man" was used, based on its genesis in the book of Daniel, deity was often in the mind of the speaker or author. That God "our Father" would have a "second in command" is an old theological thought in Israel. Both titles can be applied to Yeshua: "Son of Man" more to his deity and "Son of God" to his humanity, the opposite of what most people think."

    John 6:30-40 elaborates on John 6:27-29 that includes one comes down out of heaven (v.33) so the one sent by God is God. Greek grammar in John 1:1 shows the quality of The Word being eternal God while The God is more than The Word. God The Father was in Heaven while The Word (God) was in a human body on earth so One God was in two places at the same time so God sent God.

    Worship verse example is John 9:38 (NLT) “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 

    @Bill_Coley wrote: 1 John 4.3 - Here we get a different deployment of the "from God" imagery. John says a person who does not acknowledge that Jesus was a real person is not "from God." John clearly does not mean that people who DO acknowledge Jesus are God; rather, they are "from God."

    OP included '1 John 4:3 pericope context is 1 John 4:1-6 about Testing the Spirits.' so context was not addressed in reply. Concur with "from God" observation.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: 2 John 9 - Another verse concerning what must have been a controversy over whether Jesus was a physical human being. At stake for people who accept the reality of Jesus is a relationship with both God (the "Father") and Jesus (the "Son") [See 2 John 3, where John defines God as "the Father" and Jesus as "the Son"]

    OP included ' 2 John 9 pericope context is the entire letter.' From my perspective, One God is both The Father and The Son (who have distinct voices while intimately sharing One essence).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: With due respect, there is nothing in any of these verses, or any of the verses you cite in your subsequent post, that contends Jesus is God. Quite the contrary, in my view, the verses by and large support the view that Jesus is NOT God (he is, for example, the "Son of God").

    View idea appears to be circular reasoning: belief that Jesus is not God prevents recognition of Jesus being God, which reminds me of Matthew 13:14-15 and Isaiah 6:9-10

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote in OP: 'Testing Biblical idea that "Jesus is not God" finds no evidence in the Bible so the idea is not good.'

    @Bill_Coley wrote: I strongly disagree. For example - and there are literally scores of verses I could cite - the text from which I'm preaching my Easter Sunday sermon is the John 20 story of Mary's encounter with the risen Jesus. In John 20.17, Jesus tells Mary not to cling to him, and to tell the disciples that he is "ascending to (his) Father and (the disciples') Father, to (his) God and (the disciples') God.”

    What meaning can we take from that verse as to how Jesus understands the "Father" other than that God is "Father," that he (Jesus) is NOT that God, and God is "Father" to the disciples at least in SOME way(s) just as God is "Father" to Jesus. Further, Jesus says that his "God" is also the disciples' God? How can that mean anything other than that Jesus does NOT believe himself to be God? If Jesus believed himself to be God, why would he tell the disciples that he expected to ascend to the one who was God to both himself and the disciples?

    John 8:23-24 (NLT) Jesus continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You belong to this world; I do not. That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.”

    Jesus is from above who knows He is God, I Am, so John 20:17 describes Jesus ascending back to One God's Loving commUnity in Holy Heaven, which He (The Word, God) had left to be born as a Holy human (into a sinful world) who would be the unblemished Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: In Acts 2, what does Peter mean when he calls Jesus a "man" God had raised, through whom God had done "mighty works and wonders and signs"?

    The Messiah was both fully God and fully Man. Holy human body became the sacrifice for sin, which was certified as dead by professional Roman executioners, wrapped and buried in a rich man's tomb, followed by resurrection showing God's victory over sin.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Don't both of those verses/passages give far more support to the contention that Jesus was NOT God than to the contention that Jesus WAS God?

    No.

    @Wolfgang wrote: You yourself provided 3 passages which provide rather clear evidence that Jesus is NOT God ... that he was A MAN, that he is God's Son and NOT God Himself.

    Human essence is limited to being in one place at one time. Spiritual essence of God is in more than one place at one time: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The belief "conclusion" about Jesus "... that he was A MAN, that he is God's Son and NOT God Himself." denies plain Biblical teaching: Greek grammar in John 1:1 shows the quality of The Word being eternal God while The God is more than The Word. John 1:14 (NLT) So the Word became human. Hence, part of the Spiritual essence of One God was dwelling in Jesus while another part ruled in Holy Heaven.

    @Wolfgang wrote: All your long winded many sweet words talk of a love union in the Godhead etc etc is nothing but smoke and mirrors wherewith the verses you yourself quote are robbed of their simple plain forward meaning. You are not holding to the plain teaching of Scripture but rather to your own somewhat fancy ideas

    Some of your belief assertions remind me of Matthew 7:1-6 while reflecting weakness in fantasy ideas that lack evidence.

    @Wolfgang wrote: And where did the disciples declare "You are certainly GOD!" ??? What did they declare, Mr. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus ?? As what then did they show reverence / worship Jesus ???

    Jesus is a Spiritual part of One eternal God while not being all the Spiritual of One God. Jesus and God The Father are truly One (in Heart, Soul, Strength). Matthew 11:25-27 (NLT) At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way!  My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 

    When Jesus asked His disciples about how His Deity was perceived in Matthew 16:13-16 , Mark 8:27-30 , & Luke 9:18-20, who did Jesus credit with revealing "the Son of the living God" to Peter in Matthew 16:17 ?

    Revelation 3:20 includes Jesus standing at the door of human hearts and knocking (loving, patient, gentle, kind, ...). Every human has choice whether to open their own door for loving relationship with Jesus.

    @Wolfgang wrote: Why are you not puzzled about YOUR believing and teaching something (Jesus is God) that is NOT found in the Bible?

    Words fail to convey my wondrous Love relationship with commUnity of One God (so have no reason to puzzle, only motivation to become Holy because God is Holy). Praying for Holy Righteous Fruit to be abundant in every believer: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control. Thankful for the Day the Lord has made so can Rejoice and Be Glad in it, which includes new songs of Praise to God ๐Ÿ˜

    @Wolfgang wrote: And YOU, Mr. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus are teaching that the soldiers said "Truly this was God, the Son" ...is that what they said? No!

    Greek words for the soldiers in Matthew 27:54 (SBLGNT): แผˆληθแฟถς โธ‚θεοแฟฆ υแผฑแฝธςโธƒ แผฆν οแฝ—τος

    My literal translation of the soldier's words is: "Truly God's Son was being this one."

    @Wolfgang wrote: Or are you putting yourself perhaps above the Biblical writer and consider him to have lied and not truly recorded the soldiers' words, so you - who apparently thinks you know better - must correct the text???

    Fascinating that your reply changed my NASB95 Bible translation quote "Truly this was the Son of God!" to "Truly this was God, the Son" that does not appear in any of my digital Bibles.

    Keep Smiling ๐Ÿ˜€

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,591


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Appreciate depth of belief insight that reminds me of Jeremiah 17:9-10 (NLT) “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I, ื™ื”ื•ื”the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.” 

    I don't know what this paragraph means or what function in your post you intend it to serve. I hope you'll explain.


    The phrase "fruit fly" does not appear in the Bible so have no reason to contemplate it. In contrast, the Bible has over a thousand verses about "not ... God" while none of them apply to Jesus.

    My point was that there was no more reason for NT writers to issue the specific declaration that Jesus was not God than for them to issue a denial that Jesus was a fruit fly because none of those writers had reason to believe Jesus was God. For them he was the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Son of Man, but NOT God.


    Also the Bible has numerous verses about God that plainly apply to Jesus: e.g. Isaiah 7:14 (NLT) All right then, the ืึธื“ื•ึนืŸLord himself will give you the sign. Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God is with us’). Prophetic fulfillment is recorded in Matthew 1:22-23 Immanuel and John 1:1-18, especially verse 14 (NLT) So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son. 

    In Isaiah 7.14, the Hebrew word is "almah," which means a young woman of marriageable age. The word does NOT necessarily mean "virgin." Matthew's Gospel collects its Greek word - translated "virgin" - from the Septuagint, not the original Hebrew.

    Also, in its own context (esp. Isaiah 7.16-17) it's clear that the child to whom the prophet refers is a child who already has been born or will soon be born: By the time the child knows the difference between right and wrong, the two nations King Ahaz fears - some 700 years BEFORE the time of Jesus - will be destroyed.

    As for John 1, we have been down that road many times in these forums. In my view, John says it is the Logos - God's grand idea or plan for humanity - which became flesh in Jesus.


    Please elaborate what is distinct between God and Jesus in your view ? Also what is significant about distinction(s) ? From my perspective, Loving commUnity of One God includes Jesus, who was both fully human and fully God. To me, what is distinct in Jesus (God the Son) from God the Father and Holy Spirit is their voices and roles in the Loving commUnity of God, which has One Heart, One Soul, One Strength (intimately & intensely shared by three voices so they truly Love each other). Humanly trying to imagine God's Love that does not seek its own without three voices is incredibly challenging (single voice lacks ability to richly express aspects of True Love that desires the Best for another).

    In my view, the fundamental distinction between God and Jesus is that God is God and Jesus isn't. Jesus is the Christ, the chosen one of God, the one whom God raised and glorified in the resurrection. Peter makes the distinction clear in Acts 2.36 (ESV)...

    • "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    God made Jesus Lord and Christ. The distinction between the two in my view is clear.

    Philippians 2.9-11 says this...

    • "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

    God exalted Jesus and gave him the name that is above every other name. A clear distinction.

    An analogous distinction is made in 1 Timothy 2.5...

    • "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

    Jesus is not God; he is the mediator between God and humanity.


    OP had 'The ending of John chapter 9 (verses 35-41) include Jesus asking the healed man if he believes in the "Son of Man" (that is a diety term for Jesus referring to Daniel 7:13-14) followed by the healed man worshipping Jesus (without being rebuked by Jesus).' Daniel 7:14 shows "Son of Man" in Daniel 7:13 is an eternal ruler, which is God

    I contend that I showed in my previous post that the "son of man" reference in Daniel 7 is NOT to a deity. In the proper context of that verse, the one called "Ancient of Days" is the deity. I don't see in your response any engagement with that textual observation.


    John 6:30-40 elaborates on John 6:27-29 that includes one comes down out of heaven (v.33) so the one sent by God is God.

    In John 6.30-40, we find...

    • John 6.38 - Jesus says he has come NOT to do his own will, but the will of the one who sent him. If Jesus thought himself to be God, how could his personal will have been any different from God's will?


    OP included '1 John 4:3 pericope context is 1 John 4:1-6 about Testing the Spirits.' so context was not addressed in reply. Concur with "from God" observation.

    I'm a big fan of common ground in CD forum exchanges!


    OP included ' 2 John 9 pericope context is the entire letter.' From my perspective, One God is both The Father and The Son (who have distinct voices while intimately sharing One essence).

    To my reading, there is nothing anywhere in 2 John that contradicts the distinction between God and Jesus made in the third verse of 2 John. Also, I find nothing in the letter that supports your view of a shared "essence" between "distinct voices" of God. Where in the letter do you find support for your view?


    View idea appears to be circular reasoning: belief that Jesus is not God prevents recognition of Jesus being God, which reminds me of Matthew 13:14-15 and Isaiah 6:9-10

    No. What "prevents (my) recognition of Jesus being God" are the NT texts to which my posts in this and many other threads have referred. Your citation of verses to insinuate that my heart is hardened and/or my ears/eyes are shut to the truth is not appropriate in these forums where the expectation is that posters will "criticize ideas, not people."


    Jesus is from above who knows He is God, I Am, so John 20:17 describes Jesus ascending back to One God's Loving commUnity in Holy Heaven, which He (The Word, God) had left to be born as a Holy human (into a sinful world) who would be the unblemished Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

    With due respect, John 20.17 says more than your summary gives it credit for. In the verse, the resurrected Jesus says he's ascending to his AND the disciples' God, to his AND the disciples' Father. That is, he is in the SAME relationship with the God to whom he's ascending as are the disciples, and the SAME relationship with the Father to whom he's ascending as are the disciples. God is Jesus' God JUST AS God is the disciples' God! Given that language, I believe it's not possible for the resurrected Jesus to believe himself to be God.


    The Messiah was both fully God and fully Man. Holy human body became the sacrifice for sin, which was certified as dead by professional Roman executioners, wrapped and buried in a rich man's tomb, followed by resurrection showing God's victory over sin.

    Again I contend that your assessment of a biblical text fails to give sufficient weight to the fullness of its content. In Acts 2.22-24 (cf. Acts 4.11) Peter says...

    • Jesus was "a man" attested to by God through the "mighty works and wonders and signs" God did through him. (Acts 2.22) If God did something THROUGH Jesus, doesn't that make Jesus the conduit, not the creator, of divine action?
    • Jesus' crucifixion was part of "the definite plan and foreknowledge of God" - NOT Jesus' plan (Acts 2.23)
    • "God" raised Jesus. (Acts 2.24)

    The distinction Peter makes between Jesus and God in my view is crystal clear. There is NO sense in ANYTHING Peter says in his Acts 2 sermon to indicate that he believes Jesus is God. If you believe Peter DOES express such belief, please cite the verse(s).


    Jesus is a Spiritual part of One eternal God while not being all the Spiritual of One God. Jesus and God The Father are truly One (in Heart, Soul, Strength). Matthew 11:25-27 (NLT) At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way! My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 

    Intimacy WITH God is not the same as identification AS God. Nowhere in the Matthew 11 passage you cite does Jesus claims identification AS God.


    When Jesus asked His disciples about how His Deity was perceived in Matthew 16:13-16 , Mark 8:27-30 , & Luke 9:18-20, who did Jesus credit with revealing "the Son of the living God" to Peter in Matthew 16:17 ?

    1. Jesus did NOT ask his disciples "how his Deity was perceived." He asked them who others and who they themselves said he was.
    2. Jesus credits Peter's discernment of Jesus' being the Christ and the Living God's son to his "Father," which I believe is Jesus' most common reference to God.


  • PagesPages Posts: 65

    @Bill_Coley and @Wolfgang

    I will repeat the thrust of my post to @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus regarding the relationship of worship and Jesus during the NT and early Christianity times until today. It would seem that most discussions of this subject tend to focus on a singular Greek lexeme (there are more than one Greek word group used for worship given to deity found within the LXX and NT) rather than what worship truly encompasses, and how this has been, and is, applied to Jesus throughout the centuries of Christianity.

    quoting myself from original post:

    A quick aside: the majority of uses of the lexeme προσκυνฮญω in the LXX have to do with worship of God or that of false god’s. I mention this, seeing that the LXX was the translation widely used within the second temple period and early Christianity, the majority of OT quotations by NT writers are from LXX renderings, and that word usage in the NT would be most naturally informed by that of the LXX.  

    However, worship in it’s broadest scope entails more than whether the προσκυνฮญω word group is used in a text and how it is to be defined, as there is the necessary recognition of other elements involved under the category worship; for example, we would realize that the Lord’s Supper, singing of hymns/praise or the offering of prayer either to, or in the name of Jesus – are, in fact, exhibiting worship.  

    By way of illustration, church services today begin by hymns of praise and prayer to God and Jesus – this is considered the beginning and initial part of a worship service, with sermon and prayer concluding this worship. I would say, from New Testament and early church documents, that this was the similar case for the early Christians as well.  

    A definitional look at worship: 

    1. ‘Worship’ (Old English ‘weorthscipe’=‘worth-ship’) originally referred to the action of human beings in expressing homage to God because he is worthy of it. It covers such activities as adoration, thanksgiving, prayers of all kinds, the offering of sacrifice and the making of vows. Nowadays, however, ‘worship’ is used for any kind of interaction between God and his people, expressed in (but not confined to) cultic or formal activity by a religious group or individuals.  (I.H. Marshall, “Worship,” NBD, 1250.)

    2. Since worship includes all its constituent parts, e.g. praise, prayer, and preaching, and since it also embraces various associated features, e.g. temple, music, or hymns, the number of Heb. and Gr. words which might be mentioned in this connection is extraordinarily large and diverse. Rather than attempting to list these, or to seek a single comprehensive term, we shall devote special attention in the body of the article to five significant Gr. words.  (G. W. Bromiley, “WORSHIP,” ZPEB, paragraph 53053.)

    3. The act of adoring and praising God, that is, ascribing worth to God as the one who deserves homage and service. The church, which is to be a worshiping community (1 Pet 2:5), expresses its worship corporately and publicly (liturgically) through prayer; through psalms, hymns and spiritual songs; through the reading and exposition of Scripture; through observance of the sacraments; and through individual and corporate living in holiness and service. (“worship,” Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, 122.)

    The action of prayer either to Jesus, or in his name, constitute worship as demonstrated by the original language of the NT verses previously provided (Acts 1:24, 7:59-60; 1Cor. 16:22-24), as well as the realization that Christian prayer itself is worship. Acts 13:2 is the ritual act of worship.  

  • PagesPages Posts: 65

    @Bill_Coley

    Thank you for your thoughts.  

    Another dimension of this matter is the magnitude of the witness of the Gospels writ large. There are many, many Gospel verses/passages whose most sensible interpretation is that Jesus did not believe himself to be God. 

    Whether Jesus did or did not believe himself to be God is not an issue I commented on in my post regarding worship.

    ...which means any "worship" offered to him before he was glorified was something other than deity worship.

    So then, after Jesus’ glorification he became deity, and any worship from that time was therefore appropriate and to be considered deity worship – Is this your meaning?

    Obviously, I don’t agree that the original language used changed meaning at the glorification of Jesus. It should be remembered that the text of the NT was written post-ascension and post-formation of the early NT church.

    I accept that the word "worship" most often refers to deity.

    The joy of agreement! ๐Ÿ˜€

  • PagesPages Posts: 65

    @Wolfgang

    Thank you for your thoughts.

    So then, Peter was wrong, when he stated that the Lord Jesus was A MAN

    No, not at all. For the Trinitarian Jesus is both man and God (the Son). However, this seems an irrelevant side-issue to my brief post on the subject of worship and the relation of worship to Jesus; but, the argument you raise would be best suited in a discussion with a Oneness Pentecostal modalist, or a Oneness Pentecostal Jesus only modalist.

    Actually, none of the 4 passages you list from the NT scriptures says anything about people worshiping Jesus Christ...

    Clearly, I am in disagreement with your statement – as prayer is, in fact, a form of worship, and in three of these four instances I cited prayer was to Jesus or in his name. The other instance (Acts 13:2) is a ritual act of worship.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,591

    @pagesposted:

    Whether Jesus did or did not believe himself to be God is not an issue I commented on in my post regarding worship.

    Because I read your previous post - the one that ended with the sentence, "Written within these early years of Christianity (c. 50-248) the above examples clearly demonstrate worship, under the fullest sense, being given to our Lord Jesus – a worship that is appropriate for Deity alone." (emphasis added) - to be an indirect affirmation of Jesus' divinity, I included in my response the issue of Jesus' self-understanding of his relationship with God. If you believe the worship given to Jesus in the Gospels is an act reserved for deity only, then in my view, whether he believed himself to be God matters.


    So then, after Jesus’ glorification he became deity, and any worship from that time was therefore appropriate and to be considered deity worship – Is this your meaning?

    This is a fascinating question raised by the imprecision of my previous post. I believe the exalted Jesus has a role in the kingdom of God unlike anyone's in human history. I believe he sits at God's right hand. I think that's a form of divinity, but not to the point of his being God. In my view, never has Jesus been nor will ever be God. God is God. Jesus was, is, and will always be God's chosen one.


    Obviously, I don’t agree that the original language used changed meaning at the glorification of Jesus. It should be remembered that the text of the NT was written post-ascension and post-formation of the early NT church.

    I respect your point of view.

    While the NT text was written post-resurrection - which no doubt contributes to the tone and direction of its approach to Jesus - its subject matter is often about pre-resurrection events. Notice also that though Peter preaches in Acts 2 AFTER the resurrection, he STILL makes a clear distinction between the "man" Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead.


    The joy of agreement!

    Amen to that!!๐Ÿ˜€

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959
    edited April 23

    @Pages wrote

    So then, Peter was wrong, when he stated that the Lord Jesus was A MAN

    No, not at all. For the Trinitarian Jesus is both man and God (the Son). 

    Who cares what Jesus is for the Trinitarian, or for any of the other non-Scripture theological systems?

    Was Peter right or wrong? was the writer of Acts 2 quoting Peter right or wrong?

    However, this seems an irrelevant side-issue to my brief post on the subject of worship and the relation of worship to Jesus;

    Well, if Jesus was/is not God, any worship (reverence, adoration, homage) given to him is either (a) idolatry (if he is falsely worshiped as God) or (b) due reverence as what he in truth is (if he is given reverence as king, as master, etc)

    Actually, none of the 4 passages you list from the NT scriptures says anything about people worshiping Jesus Christ...

    Clearly, I am in disagreement with your statement – as prayer is, in fact, a form of worship, and in three of these four instances I cited prayer was to Jesus or in his name. The other instance (Acts 13:2) is a ritual act of worship.So then, Peter was wrong, when he stated that the Lord Jesus was A MAN

    In the context of my reply I was rather clearly referring to none of those passages saying anything about someone worshiping Jesus AS GOD.

    Actually, the words for prayer (making request, giving thanks, etc) also depend on the context for the true meaning, whether the person being addressed is God or not God. Just because I write "I pray you to please do such and such ..." it does NOT AT ALL mean that because of the use of the word "pray" you are God, does it?

    In addition, and in reference to some NT passages, one must note carefully to whom the word "Lord" refers in the passage in view ...not all places where "Lord" is used does it refer to the man Christ Jesus, as there are passages where GOD - the Father of Jesus - is addressed as "Lord". But the use of the word "Lord" does not make the person to whom it is applied to be God.

    Post edited by Wolfgang on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote

    Fascinating that your reply changed my NASB95 Bible translation quote "Truly this was the Son of God!" to "Truly this was God, the Son" that does not appear in any of my digital Bibles.

    So you agree that Jesus is the Son OF God and he is NOT God, the Son !

    My point has consistently been all along that Jesus is the Son of God, it was YOU who quoted the verse with the words of the soldiers as seeming proof for your belief that Jesus is God, the Son and as if they had said or meant "God, the Son".

    Thank you for clarifying that "God's Son" is not the same in your understanding as "God, the Son" ... which seemed to me to be what you were advocating.

  • PagesPages Posts: 65

    @Bill_Coley

    If you believe the worship given to Jesus in the Gospels is an act reserved for deity only, then in my view, whether he believed himself to be God matters.

    Understood. However, I did not open the door for such a discussion as my focus is limited to what is subsumed under the category of worship, and the relation of worship to Jesus – albeit briefly. The summation statement you quote follows after the research, and is derived out of the collation of that specific data.

    This is a fascinating question raised by the imprecision of my previous post. I believe the exalted Jesus has a role in the kingdom of God unlike anyone's in human history. I believe he sits at God's right hand. I think that's a form of divinity, but not to the point of his being God. In my view, never has Jesus been nor will ever be God. God is God. Jesus was, is, and will always be God's chosen one.

    Ah, imprecision – a plague. ๐Ÿ˜— I find your clarification most interesting – thank you. Perhaps another time and post we will pursue discussing this view you hold.

    Notice also that though Peter preaches in Acts 2 AFTER the resurrection, he STILL makes a clear distinction between the "man" Jesus and the God who raised him from the dead.

    In this, we agree – there is clear distinction of person made between Jesus and God – without saying more.  

  • PagesPages Posts: 65

    @Wolfgang

    Actually, the words for prayer (making request, giving thanks, etc) also depend on the context for the true meaning, whether the person being addressed is God or not God. Just because I write "I pray you to please do such and such ..." it does NOT AT ALL mean that because of the use of the word "pray" you are God, does it?

    Then by all means, please work through the four texts I provided and provide your results of those texts for discussion. My point is that Jesus is receiving worship (as defined under worship) in those texts which is afforded to only deity.

    In addition, and in reference to some NT passages, one must note carefully to whom the word "Lord" refers in the passage in view ...not all places where "Lord" is used does it refer to the man Christ Jesus, as there are passages where GOD - the Father of Jesus - is addressed as "Lord". But the use of the word "Lord" does not make the person to whom it is applied to be God.

    The weight of the internal textual witness of Acts 1:1-24 is in favor of Lord referring to Jesus, as opposed to God being the referent.  

    God is mentioned once Acts 1:3, Father is mentioned twice Acts 1:4, 7, Lord Jesus is mentioned once Acts 1:21, Lord is mentioned twice Acts 1:6, 24, and Jesus is mentioned five times Acts 1:1, 11, 14, 16, 22. Clearly then, chapter one is concerned with Jesus as the person of interest. 

    The Lord Jesus (v. 21) and Jesus (v. 22) are in the closest proximity to Lord in 1:24; as well as, the same verb chosen (Acts 1:2 – แผξελฮญξατο, Acts 1:24 – แผξελฮญξω) having been used of Jesus choosing his disciples in v. 2. Moreover, Lord is only used in conjunction with Jesus in v. 21.

    I, as many others, therefore regard κฯριε (Acts 1:24) to have Jesus in view.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959
    edited April 23

    Then by all means, please work through the four texts I provided and provide your results of those texts for discussion. My point is that Jesus is receiving worship (as defined under worship) in those texts which is afforded to only deity.

    I know very well what your point is ... and - as I have pointed out - you base your ideas on certain meanings of certain terms, which however do not necessarily in all contexts indicate or point to Deity / God being addressed or in view. They do not even constitute necessarily "a worship as God / a Deity worship".

    Sometimes such a term as "worship" is mentioned as in the disciples worshiped Jesus, or "pray" as in the disciples prayed or requested of Jesus ... the point is that such phrases do NOT necessarily mean that the disciples addressed Jesus as God or believed him to be God.

    You know, many moons ago I worshiped a girl by getting on my knees before her in rather old fashion to pray/request something of her ...do you mean to tell me that I was an idolator? that I was worshiping a woman as God? I mean, afterall there was "worship", there was "pray/request", etc ... To tell you some more about this, I still worship this woman, even now after almost 40 years have passed ...

    I, as many others, therefore regard κฯριε (Acts 1:24) to have Jesus in view.

    Even then, the text of the verse does NOT indicate or mean that Jesus is God ... just as my statement "I pray you to please detail a particular point ..." makes you to be God.

  • edited April 24

    @Bill_Coley wrote: In my view, the fundamental distinction between God and Jesus is that God is God and Jesus isn't. Jesus is the Christ, the chosen one of God, the one whom God raised and glorified in the resurrection. Peter makes the distinction clear in Acts 2.36 (ESV)...

    "Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    God made Jesus Lord and Christ. The distinction between the two in my view is clear.

    Philippians 2.9-11 says this...

    "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

    God exalted Jesus and gave him the name that is above every other name. A clear distinction.

    Idea question: what happens to distinction if the word Lord is a term for the One God ?

    @Bill_Coley wrote: If Jesus thought himself to be God, how could his personal will have been any different from God's will?

    Love without free will to choose is a robot. Each voice of the One God has free will. Jesus choose to Love The Father by doing His Will. Holy Spirit chooses what gift(s) to give to each believer.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: To my reading, there is nothing anywhere in 2 John that contradicts the distinction between God and Jesus made in the third verse of 2 John. Also, I find nothing in the letter that supports your view of a shared "essence" between "distinct voices" of God. Where in the letter do you find support for your view?

    What does the qualifier "the Father's Son" for Jesus Christ mean in 2 John 3 ? How can a man sent from God be His Son ?

    One view is The Word (eternally being God) became human.

    Keep Smiling ๐Ÿ˜€

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:

    Idea question: what happens to distinction if the word Lord is a term for the One God ?

    Well, WHO is the ONE God if the true God is only One?

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,591

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Idea question: what happens to distinction if the word Lord is a term for the One God ?

    I think that's a moot question because the texts of which you ask it seem to make clear that "Lord" is NOT a term for God.

    • Acts 2.36: Peter says God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ. It makes no sense to contend that God made Jesus God. How could God ever be "made"?
    • In keeping with the message of Acts 2.36, in Philippians 2.9-11 Paul says God exalted Jesus and GAVE ("bestowed upon," ESV) him the name that is above all others, so that knees will bow and tongues will confess that Jesus is Lord.

    Bottom Line: The glory of Jesus is glory given to him by God, which argues convincingly that Jesus is not God because the giver of glory is by definition distinct from the one who receives it.


    Love without free will to choose is a robot. Each voice of the One God has free will. Jesus choose to Love The Father by doing His Will. Holy Spirit chooses what gift(s) to give to each believer.

    I'm not raising a freedom of will issue; I'm raising a content of will issue.

    In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus' will is clearly that he NOT have to accept the cup of suffering he believes awaits him. But that's an outcome that's equally clearly contrary to God's will for him. After acknowledging his personal will, Jesus surrenders to God's will ("...nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26.39c, ESV) How could one who was God EVER have had a will that was at odds with God's will? Isn't it theologically impossible for God's will to be different from...God's will?


    What does the qualifier "the Father's Son" for Jesus Christ mean in 2 John 3 ? How can a man sent from God be His Son ?

    One view is The Word (eternally being God) became human.

    Another view is that the God who, according to Peter in Acts 2.36, made Jesus Lord and Christ, could make Jesus "the Father's Son."

    Further, the grammar of the verse, in my view, makes a clear distinction between God - who is Father - and Jesus Christ - who is God's (the Father's) Son.


    In my previous response to you, I asked for clarification about this paragraph which you had included in a prior post:

    "Appreciate depth of belief insight that reminds me of Jeremiah 17:9-10 (NLT) “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I, ื™ื”ื•ื”the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.”

    I'm still asking you to clarify the meaning and function of those words in our engagement in this thread.


    I'd also very much appreciate your response to several other contentions I made in my previous post to you:

    • The meaning and historical context of the word "almah" in Isaiah 7.14
    • The distinction between God and Jesus made in 1 Timothy 2.5 (the "man Jesus" is the mediator between God and humanity)
    • My contention that the "son of man" reference in Daniel 7 is NOT to a deity. In the proper context of that verse, the one called "Ancient of Days" is the deity.
    • John 20.17, in which the resurrected Jesus asks Mary to tell the disciples that he is ascending to his AND their God, and to his AND their Father.
    • Acts 2.22-24 (cf. Acts 4.11) in which Peter says God did mighty works THROUGH Jesus, making Jesus the conduit, not the creator, of divine action


  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959

    Mr. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, still waiting for your answer to my question which I asked in a reply to your earlier post ... will there be an answer forthcoming? If so, please make it to the point rather than a long winded repetition of all kinds of thoughts "beating around the bush" ...

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959
    edited April 26

    @Bill_Coley wrote

    In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus' will is clearly that he NOT have to accept the cup of suffering he believes awaits him. But that's an outcome that's equally clearly contrary to God's will for him. After acknowledging his personal will, Jesus surrenders to God's will ("...nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26.39c, ESV) How could one who was God EVER have had a will that was at odds with God's will? Isn't it theologically impossible for God's will to be different from...God's will?

    Unfortunately, theologically it seems possible to produce the gravest of contradictions and declare such to be the true doctrine .... some theologies appear to think that "the more far out their ideas the more spiritual they are". Usually, such then resort to the argument that our human logic is not big enough to understand and it must be understood spiritually ... of course, they sweeü under the carpet the fact that their contradiction theology also is only the product of some human theologian's brains.

  • ื™ื”ื•ื” (Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh)

    Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Yeshua (ื™ื”ื•ื” salvation) HaMashiach is ื™ื”ื•ื” (Lord = κฯριος = ืึธื“ื•ึนืŸ = Adonai => ื™ื”ื•ื”)

    Thankful can say "Jesus Christ is Lord", "Kurios Iesous Christos" (κฯριος แผธησοแฟฆς Χριστแฝธς), and Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach while kneeling to pray and Praise God ๐Ÿ˜

    @Bill_Coley wrote: How could God ever be "made"?

    Holy zygot (fertilized egg) inside Mary was made by God being both human and God, which is an amazing miracle that fulfilled prophecies, which announced God's plan of salvation that started in Genesis 3:15 seed of the woman.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Bottom Line: The glory of Jesus is glory given to him by God, which argues convincingly that Jesus is not God because the giver of glory is by definition distinct from the one who receives it.

    God's ways are better than human ways. The most Holy name God ื™ื”ื•ื” could glorify Jesus with is ื™ื”ื•ื” that is consistent with Jesus teaching "I and The Father are One" (Heart, Soul, Strength, Name)

    Please consider evidence for New Testament audiences understanding κฯριος (Lord) to be ื™ื”ื•ื” (Deity, God). The etymology of Jehovah reflects Jewish tradition of saying Adonai (ืึธื“ื•ึนืŸ) whenever ื™ื”ื•ื” appeared (Jehovah is the YHVH consonants with Adonai vowels). Hebrew scriptures were translated to Greek about 200 years prior to Jesus. Hebrew has 6,358 ื™ื”ื•ื” occurrences that were translated as κฯριος 6,040 times and θεแฝธς 318 times in the Septuagint (LXX). The Jewish audience for Peter in Acts 2 had heard God's Holy name as κฯριος (Lord) many, many times in the Synagogue weekly reading of scripture. If Peter had believed that Jesus was not God, Peter would not have used κฯριος (Lord). Peter used κฯριος (Lord) without modifying its well known Deity meaning. Hence hearers of Peter understood Deity declaration about Jesus.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: I'm not raising a freedom of will issue; I'm raising a content of will issue.

    In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus' will is clearly that he NOT have to accept the cup of suffering he believes awaits him. But that's an outcome that's equally clearly contrary to God's will for him. After acknowledging his personal will, Jesus surrenders to God's will ("...nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26.39c, ESV) How could one who was God EVER have had a will that was at odds with God's will? Isn't it theologically impossible for God's will to be different from...God's will?

    Concur theological questions are intriguing. God's nature is Love that consistently chooses to Love (not sin) while knowing good and evil. God created perfect Holy beings who chose to sin: e.g. Adam & Eve (Genesis 1-3) and adversary (Isaiah 14:12-17 & Ezekiel 28:11-19).

    Jesus humbly chose to Love God by doing His will. Without crucifixion, there is no resurrection. God's consistent Love choices are never at odds with God's will. Thankful for God's Love being greater than magnitude of evil in this sinful world.

    Humanly can somewhat appreciate intensity of Jesus not desiring Love separation from God so stress showed in sweat like drops of blood (Luke 22:44). My pondering of physical death (knowing resurrection would happen) and Love separation (from intimate relationship before the world was created) finds Love separation more compelling for desire not to drink this cup. My giving Thanks for everything includes two phrases: Lord, I don't Like and Lord, I don't understand, but I choose to give you Thanks anyway (no desire for anger since no longer want adversary assistance making more mess).

    What human can create as they speak (abracadabra is an Aramaic word) that includes turning physical stone(s) into bread ? (Matthew 4:1-4 & Luke 4:1-4) Could this temptation to sin have been a real test if Jesus did not have His own free will to choose ?

    Matthew 8:23-27 ends with the disciples asking “What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?” (ESV) that shows words spoken by Jesus have power to command physical nature.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Another view is that the God who, according to Peter in Acts 2.36, made Jesus Lord and Christ, could make Jesus "the Father's Son."

    Further, the grammar of the verse, in my view, makes a clear distinction between God - who is Father - and Jesus Christ - who is God's (the Father's) Son.

    Please elaborate/describe how God could make Jesus "the Father's Son" while keeping clear distinction between God (Father) and Jesus Christ.

    God spoke from heaven to confirm "My Son" during baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:13-17 and transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-17

    @Bill_Coley wrote: In my previous response to you, I asked for clarification about this paragraph which you had included in a prior post:

    @Wolfgang provided an example for me quoting Jeremiah 17:9-10

    @Wolfgang wrote: Unfortunately, theologically it seems possible to produce the gravest of contradictions and declare such to be the true doctrine .... some theologies appear to think that "the more far out their ideas the more spiritual they are". Usually, such then resort to the argument that our human logic is not big enough to understand and it must be understood spiritually ... of course, they sweeü under the carpet the fact that their contradiction theology also is only the product of some human theologian's brains.

    God's breath of life into one man included creative capability, which has human heart coming up with clever words containing irrational and/or rational reasons to justify desired beliefs/behavior (so what is "right" in your own eyes like Judges 21:25). A goal for followers of Jesus is in 2 Corinthians 10:5 "take every thought captive to obey Christ" (ESV). When thoughts are captive, God's Holy Fruit is beyond description ๐Ÿ˜Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control

    @Wolfgang wrote: Jesus NEVER received worship for God or worship as God!!

    Searching Bible for verses having worship and (Jesus or personal pronoun for Jesus) includes:

    Matthew 4:10 & Luke 4:8 (NASB95) spoken by Jesus: “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’ ”

    Matthew 8:2 (LEB) And behold, a leper approached and worshiped him, saying, “Lord, if you are willing, you are able to make me clean.”

    Matthew 15:25 (NLT) But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!”

    Matthew 20:20 (KJV) Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 

    Matthew 28:9 (NLT) And behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

    Mark 5:6 (KJV) But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him

    John 9:38 (NLT) “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 

    john 20:26-28 (NLT) The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said. Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!” “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed

    Many worshippers of Jesus called Him Lord, which is often a translation of ื™ื”ื•ื” in LXX. The Legion of demons in a possessed man in Mark 5:6 worshipped Jesus along with begging God not to be tormented.

    Remember Ten Commandments includes Deuteronomy 5:7-9 (NLT + some Hebrew)

    • “You must not have ืึฑืœึนื”ึดื™ื any other god but me. 
    • “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, ื™ื”ื•ื” the Lord your ืึฑืœึนื”ึดื™ื God, am a jealous ืึตืœ God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods.

    If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship is sin, which disqualifies (blemishes) Jesus from being Savior for anyone.

    If Jesus is God, then Jesus receiving worship is sinless (and appropriate). Jesus NEVER rebuked anyone worshipping Him (while Peter rebuked worship in Acts 10:25-26 and an angel rebuked worship in Revelation 19:10)

    @Bill_Coley wrote: The meaning and historical context of the word "almah" in Isaiah 7.14

    NIDOTTE lexical profile point 1 ends with "To say this another way, a woman ceases to be an ืขึทืœึฐืžึธื” when she becomes a mother—not when she becomes a wife or a sexual partner."

     Willem VanGemeren, ed., New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1997), 417.

    Remember a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel is recorded in Matthew 1:23 "God with us" that describes Jesus being God in human flesh.

    FYI: Thankful for prison ministry activities with many people Smiling as they experience God's Love ๐Ÿ˜ Prayerfully planning return to this thread in a few weeks. Discussion has already helped me Love God more ๐Ÿ˜

    Keep Smiling ๐Ÿ˜€

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959

    @Wolfgang Well, WHO is the ONE God if the true God is only One?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote

    ื™ื”ื•ื” (Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh)

    Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Yeshua (ื™ื”ื•ื” salvation) HaMashiach is ื™ื”ื•ื” (Lord = κฯριος = ืึธื“ื•ึนืŸ = Adonai => ื™ื”ื•ื”)

    Thankful can say "Jesus Christ is Lord", "Kurios Iesous Christos" (κฯριος แผธησοแฟฆς Χριστแฝธς), and Adonai Yeshua HaMashiach while kneeling to pray and Praise God ๐Ÿ˜

    Hmn ... so you claim that Jesus is the One Who alone is true God? And I thought Jesus himself had declared that his Father alone was the true God (in otherwords, he did not consider himself to be the true God!! ) .. cp John 17:3

    @Wolfgang wrote: Jesus NEVER received worship for God or worship as God!!

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:

    Remember Ten Commandments includes Deuteronomy 5:7-9 (NLT + some Hebrew)

    “You must not have ืึฑืœึนื”ึดื™ื any other god but me. 

    “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind, or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, ื™ื”ื•ื” the Lord your ืึฑืœึนื”ึดื™ื God, am a jealous ืึตืœ God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods.


    If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship is sin, which disqualifies (blemishes) Jesus from being Savior for anyone.

    Only,Jesus never received or accepted to be worshiped AS GOD.

    Why? Very simple => Jesus and those who showed reverence and paid homage (worshiped) to him knew that he was NOT God

    If Jesus is God, then Jesus receiving worship is sinless (and appropriate). Jesus NEVER rebuked anyone worshipping Him (while Peter rebuked worship in Acts 10:25-26 and an angel rebuked worship in Revelation 19:10)

    See above ... as I have mentioned before, for almost 40 years I worship a particular woman. In case you or someone else wonders, this does NOT make her a false God nor does it make me an idolator.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,591
    edited April 29

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Holy zygot (fertilized egg) inside Mary was made by God being both human and God, which is an amazing miracle that fulfilled prophecies, which announced God's plan of salvation that started in Genesis 3:15 seed of the woman.

    Your contention that the "holy zygote" inside Mary was "both human and God" comports with your Christology, but in my view doesn't comport with the witness of the whole of the New Testament - specifically verses such as...

    • Acts 2.22-24 - “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

    Jesus is a "man" to whom God attests, and through whom God acts with wonders and signs. Clearly, the one through whom acts are done is NOT the one doing the acts. That is, according the Peter, Jesus is the conduit of divine action, NOT the cause of divine action.


    • Acts 4.10 - let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.

    Jesus died. God raised Jesus from the dead. The one who does the raising is not the same as the one who is raised. What interpretation of Peter's words makes sense other than that Peter does NOT believe Jesus is God or part human and part God?


    • Romans 5.15-17 - But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

    Paul refers to Jesus as "this other man" through whom God's forgiveness is given to many, and "this one man" through whom God's grace is imparted. I find no sense in either this passage or Paul's wider writings that he believes Jesus is "both human and God."


    • 1 Timothy 2.5 - For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

    Jesus is "the man" who mediates between God and humanity. Yet again, no sense that Jesus is "both human and God."


    New Testament writers on several occasions assert that Jesus is a "man" through whom God acts. Given the clear distinction drawn by the verses I just cited, how is it possible for the Jesus those writers describe to be "both human and God"?



    God's ways are better than human ways. The most Holy name God ื™ื”ื•ื” could glorify Jesus with is ื™ื”ื•ื” that is consistent with Jesus teaching "I and The Father are One" (Heart, Soul, Strength, Name)

    Please consider evidence for New Testament audiences understanding κฯριος (Lord) to be ื™ื”ื•ื” (Deity, God). The etymology of Jehovah reflects Jewish tradition of saying Adonai (ืึธื“ื•ึนืŸ) whenever ื™ื”ื•ื” appeared (Jehovah is the YHVH consonants with Adonai vowels). Hebrew scriptures were translated to Greek about 200 years prior to Jesus. Hebrew has 6,358 ื™ื”ื•ื” occurrences that were translated as κฯριος 6,040 times and θεแฝธς 318 times in the Septuagint (LXX). The Jewish audience for Peter in Acts 2 had heard God's Holy name as κฯριος (Lord) many, many times in the Synagogue weekly reading of scripture. If Peter had believed that Jesus was not God, Peter would not have used κฯριος (Lord). Peter used κฯριος (Lord) without modifying its well known Deity meaning. Hence hearers of Peter understood Deity declaration about Jesus.

    Examples of Peter's use of "Lord" in reference to Jesus where his meaning is clearly NOT that Jesus is God are many. Here's one:

    • John 6.68-69: 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

    Peter has come to know that the one he calls "Lord" is "the Holy One of God," language whose most natural and sensible meaning is that Peter believes the "Holy one OF God" is different from - i.e. other than - God. If Peter believed Jesus was God, he would have said, "We have come to know you are God." But that's NOT what Peter said.


    Concur theological questions are intriguing. God's nature is Love that consistently chooses to Love (not sin) while knowing good and evil. God created perfect Holy beings who chose to sin: e.g. Adam & Eve (Genesis 1-3) and adversary (Isaiah 14:12-17 & Ezekiel 28:11-19).

    You characterize the theological question I raised in my previous post as "intriguing". I respect your word choice, but don't believe you have directly addressed the intrigue. The question is, can the will of one you say is God - Jesus - in ANY way conflict with the will of the one we both say is God - the "Father" to whom Jesus prays at Gethsemane?

    • You point out that Jesus "humbly chose" to comply with God's will. Yes, but the issue isn't whether Jesus ultimately obeyed; it's whether Jesus ever disagreed. When Jesus says to God, "take this cup from me," he expresses a personal will that is clearly at odds with God's will for him. His subsequent act of surrender to God's will is wondrous and inspiring, of course, but it is also proof of his personal will's conflict with God's will.
    • You interpret Jesus' plea for the cup to pass from him in terms of your personal assessment of the impact of "Love separation" from God. But where in the text do you find any such reflection in Jesus' prayer? He simply asks God to allow the cup to pass from him, a request whose most direct meaning is that he doesn't want to die. How he valued "Love separation," in my view, doesn't change the fact that his personal will conflicted with God's will. Can one who is God have a will that conflicts with God's will?
    • Finally, you reference some of Jesus' miraculous actions. Those actions don't address the central question of conflicting wills, and are also explained by Peter's Acts 2 sermon, where he proclaimed the mighty works God had done "through" Jesus. (Acts 2.22)


    What human can create as they speak (abracadabra is an Aramaic word) that includes turning physical stone(s) into bread ? (Matthew 4:1-4 & Luke 4:1-4) Could this temptation to sin have been a real test if Jesus did not have His own free will to choose ?

    Matthew 8:23-27 ends with the disciples asking “What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?” (ESV) that shows words spoken by Jesus have power to command physical nature.

    As for how Jesus controlled the waves, revisit Peter's proclamation of God's mighty works "through" Jesus.

    We agree that Jesus had free will. But the question is the content of his will, not its freedom. Jesus' will clearly conflicted with God's will. Such a discrepancy raises no alarms when its your will and my will at odds with God's. But when the one you say is God has a will that's at odd's with God's will, in my view, THAT'S a problem... one you have yet to address directly.


    Please elaborate/describe how God could make Jesus "the Father's Son" while keeping clear distinction between God (Father) and Jesus Christ.

    God spoke from heaven to confirm "My Son" during baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:13-17 and transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-17

    In my view, Jesus as "the Son of God" is not a reference to his genealogical family tree, but rather to his spiritual relation with God. In the opening verses of Romans, Paul says Jesus was "declared to be the Son of God" in the resurrection: (Romans 1.1-4, ESV)...

    • Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,


    NIDOTTE lexical profile point 1 ends with "To say this another way, a woman ceases to be an ืขึทืœึฐืžึธื” when she becomes a mother—not when she becomes a wife or a sexual partner."

    I think this interpretation of the word "almah" is incorrect. From my reading of several resources, the term has to do with the woman's age, not her marital, maternal, or sexual experience status.


    Remember a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14 Immanuel is recorded in Matthew 1:23 "God with us" that describes Jesus' being God in human flesh.

    Isaiah's 7.14's fulfillment not until the birth of Jesus would be a shock to the prophet. As I pointed out in my previous post, Isaiah projects that before the child "knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good," the land of the two nations King Ahaz fears (Israel and Syria) will be "deserted." (Isaiah 7.16) CLEARLY, Isaiah does NOT mean Ahaz will have to wait 700 years for the threat of those nations to be neutralized. I think it's clear the prophet believes the child of the sign he offers to Ahaz already has been born, or soon will be born.

    If I'm correct - and please show my error from the prophet's text, if you believe I'm not right - then in your view, does that mean the prophet was wrong about the time frame of the child he predicted?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,959
    • Acts 4.10 - let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.

    Jesus was crucified and died ... God was not crucified nor can God die. God then raised Jesus from the dead ... God did not raise God (Himself) from the dead, nor did an alive God raise a dead God from the dead.

    And yet, this is exactly what Trinity believing people believe and even teach ... contradicting flat out what the Scriptures teach in this verse and many others.

    • Romans 5.15-17 - But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

    Could the passage from Rom 5 be any more plain and clear in declaring that Jesus Christ was a man, a human being ...and NOT God??

    The truth of Scripture is in plain and clear view and very, very simple. And yet, certain theologies flat out contradict the simple and plain truth rather boldly and draw multitudes of followers after them with claims that they are teaching truth ... and millions are following them ... why? perhaps because they follow along by sort of "blind faith"???

  • @Wolfgang wrote: Jesus was crucified and died ... God was not crucified nor can God die.

    Phrase "nor can God die" could be qualified:

    "All of God cannot die" Agree since if all of God could die, then God would cease to be God.

    "None of God could die" Disagree due to God's Loving plan for the The Word (eternally being God while not being all of God) who humbled Himself (left Holy Heaven above) to live in Holy human body, which became the unblemished sacrifice that takes away sin of the world.

    @Wolfgang wrote: God then raised Jesus from the dead ... God did not raise God (Himself) from the dead, nor did an alive God raise a dead God from the dead.

    All of One God raised Jesus from the dead (only physical human body died). Two voices (of One God) were alive above (Father & Holy Spirit) while one voice (of God) was alive below (Jesus). Human speculation for "Shroud of Turin" is unclean spirits pressing cloth against body of Jesus trying to prevent resurrection, but God's Light burst forth that left three dimensional negative image in cloth.

    • @Wolfgang wrote: Romans 5.15-17 - But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

    Paul clarifies the first man, Adam, being from dust while the second man (Jesus Christ) is from heaven in 1 Corinthians 15:44-47 If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

    @Wolfgang wrote: Could the passage from Rom 5 be any more plain and clear in declaring that Jesus Christ was a man, a human being ...and NOT God??

    Larger context of Romans 5 plainly declares Jesus Christ is Lord (v 11), Man (vv 15-17), and Lord (v 21). Contemporary synagogue usage: κฯριος (Lord) = Adonai => ื™ื”ื•ื” (God). Only God gives Grace through righteousness for eternal life.

    Hebrews 3:1-6 contrasts Moses being a faithful servant (man) in God's house while Jesus is God's Son over God's house, which is worthy of more honor. Please explain how God could make Jesus "the Father's Son" or "God's Son" while keeping clear distinction between God (Father) and Jesus Christ ?

    @Wolfgang wrote: The truth of Scripture is in plain and clear view and very, very simple. And yet, certain theologies flat out contradict the simple and plain truth rather boldly and draw multitudes of followers after them with claims that they are teaching truth ... and millions are following them ... why? perhaps because they follow along by sort of "blind faith"???

    Concur a number of questionable doctrines are based on scripture snippets (can "justify" anything), which ignore plain context. Thankful for Paul's prayer in Ephesians 3 that urges searching height, depth, width, and breadth of God's Love (searching is not "blind faith").

    One form of "blind faith" is Jeremiah 17:9-10 (deceptiveness of human heart) that continues to blindly ignore (or rationalize away) plain meaning of Scripture: e.g. Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, .... Mighty God, ..." plus "Immanuel" (God with us) in Isaiah 7:14 that has a prophetic fulfillment in Matthew 1:22-23

    @Wolfgang wrote: Hmn ... so you claim that Jesus is the One Who alone is true God? And I thought Jesus himself had declared that his Father alone was the true God (in otherwords, he did not consider himself to be the true God!! ) .. cp John 17:3

    John 17:1 includes Jesus knowing He is the Son of God (as He begins prayer). Also John 17:5 includes Jesus knowing He was with His Father before the world began. Only God existed before the world was created (so Jesus knew He was God and His Father was God = two voices in One God).

    @Wolfgang wrote: Only,Jesus never received or accepted to be worshiped AS GOD.

    Remember context for John 8:38 worship to Jesus as God where Jesus had asked in John 8:36 "Do you believe in the Son of Man ?" that uses "Son of Man" to describe Himself as God above (referring to Daniel 7:13-14 with prophetic fulfillment in Matthew 28:18)

    @Wolfgang wrote: Why? Very simple => Jesus and those who showed reverence and paid homage (worshiped) to him knew that he was NOT God

    Man born blind whose eyesight was opened chose to worship Jesus as God.

    Keep Smiling ๐Ÿ˜€

Sign In or Register to comment.