Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?
Comments
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A question for those who want to believe that Jesus already lived before Abraham did:
Do you realize that with such an idea you flat out contradict what other scriptures state regarding Abraham and Jesus?
Mt 1,1 (AV)
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Gal 3,16 (AV)
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Why do you not acknowledge that such an interpretation as you propagate for Jesus' statement recorded in Joh 8:58 produces a contradiction to other scriptures such as the ones cited above? Are you trying to tell us that Jesus did not know or understand that he was the promised seed of the line of Abraham and thus did not live before but many centuries after Abraham?
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My Bible search found several verses that The Lord is God alone, who is the only savior. If Jesus is separate (distinct) from God, then Jesus cannot be savior for anyone's sin. Hence personal belief that Jesus is your savior while Jesus is separate from God contradicts scripture.
Isaiah 43:10-13 (AV) Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, And my servant whom I have chosen: That ye may know and believe me, And understand that I am he: Before me there was no God formed, Neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; And beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, When there was no strange god among you: Therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; And there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isaiah 45:18-22 (AV) For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, He created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Assemble yourselves and come; Draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: They have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, And pray unto a god that cannot save. Tell ye, and bring them near; Yea, let them take counsel together: Who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? Have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; A just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: For I am God, and there is none else.
Hosea 13:4 (AV) Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, And thou shalt know no god but me: For there is no saviour beside me.
Sirach 24:23-24 (AV) All these things are the book of the covenant of the most high God, even the law which Moses commanded for an heritage unto the congregations of Jacob. Faint not to be strong in the Lord; that he may confirm you, cleave unto him: for the Lord Almighty is God alone, and beside him there is no other Saviour.
As a traveling Jewish Rabbi (Teacher), Jesus knew the above scriptures, yet taught with Godly authority: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me." (Jn 14.6)
From my faith perspective, broad & easy is the way that leads to destruction while narrow & hard is the way that leads to life (see Mt 7.13)
Jesus said: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last" (Rv 22.13) while the Lord said: "I am the First and the Last; there is no other God." (Is 44.6)
Jesus also said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me." (Jn 14.6)
If Jesus and Lord God are two separate (distinct) entities, How can "the man" Jesus be the only way to God the Father ?
@Bill_Coley Notice that in the three quotations you draw from the words of Jesus is NOT one in which Jesus says "I am God." Again, given the gravity and magnitude of an assertion of divinity, why does Jesus NOT ONCE directly claim it?
Related "claim" question is: "What was the Jewish legal reason for killing Jesus ?" The Jewish religious court (Sanhedrin) sentenced Jesus to die in accordance with God's Law(s) from the first five books of the Bible (unbelieving Jewish leaders did not believe the direct claims by Jesus).
Earlier "What was the purpose of Jesus teaching in parables ?" remains unanswered. Corollary is: "What is the faith purpose of parables ?"
@Bill_Coley The meaning and implications of John 14.6 are many and worthy of threads of their own. For this moment, I note only that God can make whatever and whomever to be the means of access.
Assertion logically contracts teaching by Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:22-30 (by implying many ways to God while not providing any scripture collaboration about God choosing whatever and whomever to be the means of access)
@Wolfgang A question for those who want to believe that Jesus already lived before Abraham did:
@Wolfgang Do you realize that with such an idea you flat out contradict what other scriptures state regarding Abraham and Jesus?
Mt 1,1 (AV)
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Gal 3,16 (AV)
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
@Wolfgang Why do you not acknowledge that such an interpretation as you propagate for Jesus' statement recorded in Joh 8:58 produces a contradiction to other scriptures such as the ones cited above? Are you trying to tell us that Jesus did not know or understand that he was the promised seed of the line of Abraham and thus did not live before but many centuries after Abraham?
Jesus is both the root and the offspring of David: (Matthew 1:1 & Galatians 3:16 affirm offspring while John 8:58 affirms root)
Revelation 22.16 (AV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Psalm 110:1 quotation by Jesus Christ affirms being both Lord God and King David's son (seed of Abraham)
Matthew 22:41-46 (AV) While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Mark 12:35-37 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?
Luke 20:41–44 (AV) And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David’s son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
John 8:54 (NLT) Jesus answered, “If I want glory for myself, it doesn’t count. ...
@Bill_Coley Read further in the John 8 scene: (emphasis added) "“If I want glory for myself, it doesn’t count. But it is my Father who will glorify me. You say, ‘He is our God,’ 55 but you don’t even know him. I know him. If I said otherwise, I would be as great a liar as you! But I do know him and obey him."
@Bill_Coley It's the perfect opportunity to claim his Godhood!
Rest of the story in John 8:56-59 has dialogue in an Ancient Jewish cultural way that Jesus is "I Am" (existing in/as God before Abraham was), which was followed by unbelieving Jews picking up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy (as they clearly understood Godhood claim by the "man" Jesus).
@Bill_Coley Jesus could say, "You say, 'He is our God...' well, I'm your God!"
John 8:42-47 (NLT) Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me! Which of you can truthfully accuse me of sin? And since I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don’t listen because you don’t belong to God.”
Luke 8:26-39 about Legion being cast out of a man ends with (NLT): 'But Jesus sent him home, saying “No, go back to your family, and tell them everything God has done for you.” So he went all through the town proclaiming the great things Jesus had done for him.'
@Bill_Coley We know from Luke 8.28 that the demon-possessed man thinks Jesus is NOT God, but rather "the Son of the Most High God." So his telling people what "Jesus" did for him cannot be a designation of deity.
Demons understood Psalm 2 prophecy fulfillment where The Word (in One God's commUnity of Love) humbly chose to leave Holy Heaven to be born of a woman (her seed as prophesied). The Will (in One God's commUnity of Love) became The Father when The Word became The Son in a human seed (egg) inside Mary. Demonic decription "the Son of the Most High God" is correct physically and spiritually while leaving out that The Word already existed when angels were created (predating Abraham). Isaiah 14:12-15 describes subsequent rebellion sin against God, which caused morph of love into hate (as fallen angels changed into demons). Revelation 12 mentions a third of the stars being swept to earth so one out of three angels morphed into demons. Luke 8:28 includes demons in the possessed man powerfully inferring Jesus is God because they are begging Jesus not to torment them. God granted authority for humans to cast out demons, but not to torment them (nor to destroy them).
At the time of Jesus, a Roman Legion was 10,000+ soldiers. The demon possessed man had 10,000+ spirits with voices inside one human body. When the man was in his right mind (no more demonic voices inside), he wanted to follow Jesus. However, Jesus told the man to tell everything The God has done (self-identification by Jesus shows all of one plural unified God participated in casting out a legion of demons).
@Bill_Coley We also know from the sum of Jesus' teachings that he credits God for everything he does (e.g. John 5.19,30) so it's not surprising to hear Jesus tell the man to tell people what "God" had done for him.
Remember John 5 context begins with Jesus healing a man who had been paralyzed for 38 years. Jewish leaders had spent many years studying scriptures, which included memorizing every letter and word in the Torah, memorizing Jewish oral law (and their associated commentaries), plus reading/discussing all scripture every year (Hebrew\Aramaic & LXX). From their intense study, Jewish leaders were offended by the healed man "working" on Sabbath as they remembered Exodus 31:12-17 for God creating Sabbath with Holy rules. Certainty of their "righteous" study results prevented them from rejoicing in a great miracle done by God plus provided reason to harass Jesus. When Jesus replied to harassment in John 5:17, unbelieving Jewish leaders were further angered as they "righteously" remembered Leviticus 24:15-16 reason to kill Jesus for blasphemy (as they clearly understood Godhood claim by the "man" Jesus). Incredibly intense is the Love relationship between The WIll (Father) and The Word (Son) so Jesus & humans can lovingly live on every Word from One God to do God's Will, which is reflected in John 5:19-47 discourse by Jesus (includes heart assessment of Jewish leaders not having God's Love within them).
Luke 17:11-19 (NLT) As Jesus continued on toward Jerusalem....
@Bill_Coley The man returns to thank Jesus, but praise God. Again, we know Jesus himself credits God for his (Jesus') powers.
From my faith perspective, Jesus received worship as God from the man falling to the ground Praising God & Thanking Jesus. We disagree about who Jesus is (credit assertion assumes separation between God and Jesus, which lacks scriptual proof for me: nothing proves Jesus is only a man).
@Bill_Coley 26 Then Jesus told her, “I AM the Messiah!”
@Bill_Coley Three important outcomes:
- Jesus says "we Jews know all about [God.]" He includes himself among those who know about God. He does NOT include himself among those who ARE God.
- He says God (the one he calls "Father") is spirit, which in effect excludes himself from the woman's consideration as God.
- He self-defines as "the Messiah," God's chosen one, and NOT as God.
John 4:26 is consistent with Acts 2:36 as Jesus is both "I AM" (Lord God) & The Messiah. My faith understanding of Jesus in One God's commUnity of Love recognizes inclusion of Jesus with The Father (so we worship God in spirit and in truth). The bright and morning star in Revelation 22:16 is a fulfillment of Numbers 24:17 (with Balaam's prophetic words in Numbers 24:11-18 being recognized as Messianic by Josephus and Philo).
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus postSmiling
My Bible search found several verses that The Lord is God alone, who is the only savior. If Jesus is separate (distinct) from God, then Jesus cannot be savior for anyone's sin. Hence personal belief that Jesus is your savior while Jesus is separate from God contradicts scripture.
Not true. God is the one responsible for all salvation. Jesus is the mechanism - the one Peter calls "the man" - through whom God effects salvation. Consider Acts 2.22; Acts 10.36; Romans 2.16,21; Romans 6.23; Romans 5.10; 1 Cor 15.57; 2 Cor 5.18,21; Galatians 1.6; Galatians 3.14; Ephesians 1.5; Ephesians 2.13....
As a traveling Jewish Rabbi (Teacher), Jesus knew the above scriptures, yet taught with Godly authority: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me." (Jn 14.6)
Yes. "...through" Jesus. My point exactly. See verses previously noted.
Related "claim" question is: "What was the Jewish legal reason for killing Jesus ?" The Jewish religious court (Sanhedrin) sentenced Jesus to die in accordance with God's Law(s) from the first five books of the Bible (unbelieving Jewish leaders did not believe the direct claims by Jesus).
"Related" claims notwithstanding, what's the answer to my question? Given the gravity and magnitude of an assertion of divinity, why does Jesus NOT ONCE directly claim it?
Earlier "What was the purpose of Jesus teaching in parables ?" remains unanswered. Corollary is: "What is the faith purpose of parables ?"
I didn't answer your parables question the last time you asked it because it was a means by which you evaded a direct response to the question I asked (basically the same distraction function your "related claim" phrase serves above). I asked why Jesus never once directly claimed divinity, but instead of answering that question directly, you asked me the parables question. Answer my question directly, then I will address your parables question.
Assertion logically contracts teaching by Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:22-30 (by implying many ways to God while not providing any scripture collaboration about God choosing whatever and whomever to be the means of access)
No logical contradiction. Among God's options for entrance to the Kingdom is a "narrow" way; (Matthew 7.13) that's the option God chose. Among God's options to enter the Kingdom is working "hard;" (Luke 13.24) That's the option God chose. Among the options for offering salvation was the person named Jesus. He's the option God chose.
Rest of the story in John 8:56-59 has dialogue in an Ancient Jewish cultural way that Jesus is "I Am" (existing in/as God before Abraham was), which was followed by unbelieving Jews picking up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy (as they clearly understood Godhood claim by the "man" Jesus).
Your response here offers no engagement with the core of my assertion: That in John 8.54-55 Jesus says God is someone he both knows and obeys. Those are NOT the words of someone who believes himself to BE God.
John 8:42-47 (NLT) Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me! Which of you can truthfully accuse me of sin? And since I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don’t listen because you don’t belong to God.”
And again you make my point. Jesus tells them that he has come "from" God, that he has been "sent by" God. One who sees himself as coming from and being sent by God does not see himself to be God.
Demons understood Psalm 2 prophecy fulfillment where The Word (in One God's commUnity of Love) humbly chose to leave Holy Heaven to be born of a woman (her seed as prophesied). The Will (in One God's commUnity of Love) became The Father when The Word became The Son in a human seed (egg) inside Mary. Demonic decription "the Son of the Most High God" is correct physically and spiritually while leaving out that The Word already existed when angels were created (predating Abraham). Isaiah 14:12-15 describes subsequent rebellion sin against God, which caused morph of love into hate (as fallen angels changed into demons). Revelation 12 mentions a third of the stars being swept to earth so one out of three angels morphed into demons. Luke 8:28 includes demons in the possessed man powerfully inferring Jesus is God because they are begging Jesus not to torment them. God granted authority for humans to cast out demons, but not to torment them (nor to destroy them).
At the time of Jesus, a Roman Legion was 10,000+ soldiers. The demon possessed man had 10,000+ spirits with voices inside one human body. When the man was in his right mind (no more demonic voices inside), he wanted to follow Jesus. However, Jesus told the man to tell everything The God has done (self-identification by Jesus shows all of one plural unified God participated in casting out a legion of demons).
You are of course welcome to your faith perspective on these matters, but the biblical text simply does not support your claims. There is no word in the story that the demons were versed in or concerned about trinitarian thinking. In addition, Jesus did NOT tell the healed man to tell everything "The God" had done for him; he instructed the man to tell people what "God" had done for him. And as I noted in my previous post, Jesus believed he did nothing on his own, that God did works through him, so it's not surprising that he would tell the man to talk about what God had done, while the man gave credit to the healer in front of him, Jesus.
When Jesus replied to harassment in John 5:17, unbelieving Jewish leaders were further angered as they "righteously" remembered Leviticus 24:15-16 reason to kill Jesus for blasphemy (as they clearly understood Godhood claim by the "man" Jesus). Incredibly intense is the Love relationship between The WIll (Father) and The Word (Son) so Jesus & humans can lovingly live on every Word from One God to do God's Will, which is reflected in John 5:19-47 discourse by Jesus (includes heart assessment of Jewish leaders not having God's Love within them).
As I have pointed out numerous times, that the Jewish leaders believed Jesus was claiming to be God is NOT proof that Jesus claimed to be God. And as I have ALSO pointed out numerous times, Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God.
From my faith perspective, Jesus received worship as God from the man falling to the ground Praising God & Thanking Jesus. We disagree about who Jesus is (credit assertion assumes separation between God and Jesus, which lacks scriptual proof for me: nothing proves Jesus is only a man).
I celebrate your faith perspective. I don't believe the biblical text supports your view. In my view, the New Testament teems with evidence that Jesus is not God, and offers only scant and tangential suggestions to the contrary. You're welcome to your conclusions on the matter, as am I.
John 4:26 is consistent with Acts 2:36 as Jesus is both "I AM" (Lord God) & The Messiah. My faith understanding of Jesus in One God's commUnity of Love recognizes inclusion of Jesus with The Father (so we worship God in spirit and in truth). The bright and morning star in Revelation 22:16 is a fulfillment of Numbers 24:17 (with Balaam's prophetic words in Numbers 24:11-18 being recognized as Messianic by Josephus and Philo).
Again I celebrate your faith perspective.
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@Wolfgang Why do you not acknowledge that such an interpretation as you propagate for Jesus' statement recorded in Joh 8:58 produces a contradiction to other scriptures such as the ones cited above? Are you trying to tell us that Jesus did not know or understand that he was the promised seed of the line of Abraham and thus did not live before but many centuries after Abraham?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jesus is both the root and the offspring of David: (Matthew 1:1 & Galatians 3:16 affirm offspring while John 8:58 affirms root)
Revelation 22.16 (AV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
As for your idea Jesus being "the root of David", I suggest to consider the plain truth that the expression "root and offspring of David" is a reference back to the prophecy in Isa 11:1,10 ... and it has nothing whatever to do with Jesus having lived before David or being David's God. Joh 8:58 also has nothing whatever to do with Jesus stating he was Abraham's or David's God.
Psalm 110:1 quotation by Jesus Christ affirms being both Lord God and King David's son (seed of Abraham)
?? Psalm 110 affirms nothing like it ... You create the self-contradictory idea God (the God "Jesus") is both David's God and David's son ... You are actually making David out to be God's Father, don't you realize your non-sense?
Matthew 22:41-46 (AV) While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Mark 12:35-37 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?
Luke 20:41–44 (AV) And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David’s son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
See above ... you fabricate a self-contradictory idea by equating the word "lord" with "God". This was already pointed out to you several times in the past, but apparently you rejected the correction. This is your privilege to do, but such rejection of correction does not do away with your "faith perspective" interpretation contradicting what the Biblical text itself states.
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Jesus is not I AM (Lord God) ... there is NOTHING in Scripture which would even suggest such ... there are man fabricated theologies which claim such. Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah, the man, whom God had promised to sent.
Please note, the Messiah cannot be and is himself not God ...because he is a human being, and God is NOT a human being.
My faith understanding of Jesus in One God's commUnity of Love recognizes inclusion of Jesus with The Father (so we worship God in spirit and in truth).
You make up a "God commUnity of Love" in what you call your "faith understanding". God is NOT a community of individuals, God is NOT a duo, not a trio, not a quartet, not a team of {however many}. Scripture's most basic truth is that the true God, the Almighty, the Creator, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, the Father, etc is one SINGLE individual SPIRIT Being.
The bright and morning star in Revelation 22:16 is a fulfillment of Numbers 24:17 (with Balaam's prophetic words in Numbers 24:11-18 being recognized as Messianic by Josephus and Philo).
Indeed ... the man Jesus of Nazareth is that person about whom Balaam prophesied who was the Messiah to come.
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John 4:26 is consistent with Acts 2:36 as Jesus is both "I AM" (Lord God) & The Messiah.
@Wolfgang Jesus is not I AM (Lord God) ... there is NOTHING in Scripture which would even suggest such ... there are man fabricated theologies which claim such. Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah, the man, whom God had promised to sent.
What did Jewish religious leaders hear Jesus say that justified Jewish death penalty for Jesus ? (Jewish religious leaders did not believe what Jesus said about Himself so they "righteously" concluded from their human scripture study that Jesus deserved death per God's law in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). Intense human study of scripture (included memorizing every letter and word of Torah) did not produce faith in God. Jewish religious leaders had knowledge of God while their hearts did not Love God (so they appeared "righteous" outwardly while inside were sinful mess destined for eternity away from God's Love).
Note: if assertion "Jesus is not I AM (Lord God) ... there is NOTHING in Scripture which would even suggest such" is correct, then Jewish religious leaders had no Jewish legal justification for death penalty. Jesus was crucified for who He is (not for anything He did).
@Wolfgang Please note, the Messiah cannot be and is himself not God ...because he is a human being, and God is NOT a human being.
Assertion plainly contradicts scripture prophetic plan and recorded fulfillment: e.g. Genesis 3:15 seed of the woman => Isaiah 9:6-7 son ... Mighty God => Matthew 1:20-23 son ... Immanuel & John 1:1-18 The Word was eternally God who became human (flesh)
Jesus offered His Holy human body as a sin sacrifice for all while God's Spirit in Jesus never died (only the human body suffered, died and was resurrected => by those human stripes we can be healed to be Holy in God). Jesus was born spiritually alive since He did not inherit sin nature from Adam. Anyone born from a human father (sperm) and human mother (egg) is spiritually dead (due to inheritance of sin nature from Adam).
My faith understanding of Jesus in One God's commUnity of Love recognizes inclusion of Jesus with The Father (so we worship God in spirit and in truth).
@Wolfgang You make up a "God commUnity of Love" in what you call your "faith understanding". God is NOT a community of individuals, God is NOT a duo, not a trio, not a quartet, not a team of {however many}. Scripture's most basic truth is that the true God, the Almighty, the Creator, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, the Father, etc is one SINGLE individual SPIRIT Being.
We agree God is one "SINGLE SPIRIT being" while disagreeing about how that "SINGLE SPIRIT being" chose to express Love before creating anything. As a human individual, concur "God is NOT a community of individuals, God is NOT a duo, not a trio, not a quartet, not a team of {however many}." Plural (Let Us) unified (our image) God breathed life into dust to create The Man (Adam), who was one human individual (from The Man's bone, God fashioned one woman so two human individuals were spiritually alive until they chose to sin). One God's commUnity of Love is a "SINGLE SPIRIT being" who has three distinct roles (voices): Abba (Father), Yeshua (יהוה Salvation), Ruach HaKodesh (Breath The Holy) while being SINGLE SPIRIT eternally = the true God, the Almighty, the Creator, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel.
@Wolfgang you fabricate a self-contradictory idea by equating the word "lord" with "God". This was already pointed out to you several times in the past, but apparently you rejected the correction. This is your privilege to do, but such rejection of correction does not do away with your "faith perspective" interpretation contradicting what the Biblical text itself states.
Fabrication assertion restates belief that Jesus cannot be God while ignoring Jewish historical word usage. Please consider evidence for New Testament Jewish audiences understanding κύριος (Lord) to be יהוה (Deity, God). Etymology of "Jehovah" reflects Jewish tradition of saying Adonai (אָדוֹן) whenever יהוה appeared: Jehovah is the YHVH consonants combined with Adonai vowels. Hebrew scriptures were translated to Greek about 200 years prior to Jesus. Hebrew has 6,358 יהוה occurrences that were translated as κύριος 6,040 times (Lord) and θεὸς 318 times (God) in the Septuagint (LXX). Jewish worshipers heard & adored God's Holy name as Adonai (אָדוֹן) OR κύριος (Lord) many, many times in the Synagogue weekly reading of scripture (Complete Old Testament was read & discussed every year). Daily Jewish prayers included The Shema that begins "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad" (Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one) and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being, and all your resources. Note: Eloheinu (God) is plural while ADONAI is singular (The Shema worships plural unified God)
My Bible search found several verses that The Lord is God alone, who is the only savior. If Jesus is separate (distinct) from God, then Jesus cannot be savior for anyone's sin. Hence personal belief that Jesus is your savior while Jesus is separate from God contradicts scripture.
@Bill_Coley Not true. God is the one responsible for all salvation. Jesus is the mechanism - the one Peter calls "the man" - through whom God effects salvation. Consider Acts 2.22; Acts 10.36; Romans 2.16,21; Romans 6.23; Romans 5.10; 1 Cor 15.57; 2 Cor 5.18,21; Galatians 1.6; Galatians 3.14; Ephesians 1.5; Ephesians 2.13....
Assertion "Not true" infers The Lord God is a liar if "the mechanism" Jesus is not Lord God.
Acts 2:22 reminds me of Immanuel "God with us" as original Jewish audience remembered (knew) the "man" Jesus spoke as God, demons obeyed (becoming quiet & cast out), dead raised, lepers cleansed, lame walk, blind see, deaf hear, sick healed, thousands feed
Acts 10:36 reminds me of Adonai (Lord) usage in Jewish Synagogues so Jesus is The Messiah and Lord יהוה God
Romans 2:16 reminds me The Messiah Jesus knows my inner secrets. A human does not know the inner secrets of another human.
Romans 2:21 reminds me of James 3:1 because scripture teachers will receive greater (stricter) judgement by God
Romans 6:23 Gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord יהוה God
Romans 5:10 (reconcile with God through His Son's death) is followed by Romans 5:11 => Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ
1 Corinthians 15:57 expresses Thanks to God for victory over sin (1 Co 15.56) through our Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ
Remembering God creates Life, the context of 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 shows being in Christ is a new creation (am Thankful for God's transformation from old sin self to new Holy Love inside me). God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (God).
Remember Acts 9 describes author of Galatians having a personal encounter with the resurrected Lord יהוה God Jesus, which left the author physically blind for three days and caused conversion from "righteously" persecuting those who believed in Jesus as Lord יהוה God to proclaiming Jesus is Lord יהוה God (as mentioned in Galatians 1:11-24). Galatians 1:3 greeting (and 6:18 greeting) includes Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ. Sadly Galatians 1:6-9 reminds me of Exodus 32 story about golden calf (along with reminder to rightly handle God's word of truth). One way to paraphrase beginning of Galatians 3 is: "O foolish Galatians, are you going to complete your spiritual journey in God by just relying on your own human efforts: study of scripture and righteous appearance ?" Galatians 3:10-14 declares legalistic observance does not make one right with God. The Messiah chose to become cursed for us. Believers in The Messiah receive the Holy Spirit by faith in Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:5 reminds me of one long Greek sentence being numbered Ephesians 1:3-14 that has two verbs in present tense (continous action) being redeemed by blood of Jesus in 1:7 and Holy Spirit guarantee of God's promise in 1:14 (while 1:5 reminds me of Love in 1 John 3:1). Ephesians 2:13 reminds me of Ephesians 1:7 while Ephesians 2 speaks of being in God's family. Does it really make any sense for an entitiy (human) outside God's family to enable membership within God's family ? (seems a bit contradictory to me for a created human to enable membership in God's family). If Jesus is Lord יהוה God, then placement in Lord יהוה God's Holy Temple (family) for the Glory of Lord יהוה God is loving family placement.
Verses for consideration are consistent with The Lord יהוה God being the only Savior through our Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ.
Related "claim" question is: "What was the Jewish legal reason for killing Jesus ?" The Jewish religious court (Sanhedrin) sentenced Jesus to die in accordance with God's Law(s) from the first five books of the Bible (unbelieving Jewish leaders did not believe the direct claims by Jesus).
@Bill_Coley "Related" claims notwithstanding, what's the answer to my question? Given the gravity and magnitude of an assertion of divinity, why does Jesus NOT ONCE directly claim it?
Original Jewish audience understood many "I AM" statements spoken by Jesus to be Lord יהוה God's name, which unbelieving Jews considered to be blasphemy against Lord יהוה God so Jesus should be put to death (along with other deity scripture references applying to Jesus: e.g. Psalm 110:1, Daniel 7:13, Isaiah 43:10-13). Unbelieving Jews has a choice: believe truth spoken by Jesus or seek to kill Jesus (while ignoring good works).
Earlier "What was the purpose of Jesus teaching in parables ?" remains unanswered. Corollary is: "What is the faith purpose of parables ?"
@Bill_Coley I didn't answer your parables question the last time you asked it because it was a means by which you evaded a direct response to the question I asked (basically the same distraction function your "related claim" phrase serves above). I asked why Jesus never once directly claimed divinity, but instead of answering that question directly, you asked me the parables question. Answer my question directly, then I will address your parables question.
Direct answer is original Jewish audience understood truth spoken by Jesus (some chose to believe Jesus is Lord יהוה God while unbelievers wanted Jesus to die). Please answer parable questions (may help provide insight about word choices by Jesus, which relates to faith assertion "why Jesus never once directly claimed divinity").
Remember Jesus lived in an ancient Jewish culture two thousand years ago that had different thought expression nuances than today: e.g. modern western culture assumes ideas are separate from actions (from Greek philosophy).
@Bill_Coley The meaning and implications of John 14.6 are many and worthy of threads of their own. For this moment, I note only that God can make whatever and whomever to be the means of access.
Assertion logically contracts teaching by Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:22-30 (by implying many ways to God while not providing any scripture collaboration about God choosing whatever and whomever to be the means of access)
@Bill_Coley No logical contradiction. Among God's options for entrance to the Kingdom is a "narrow" way; (Matthew 7.13) that's the option God chose. Among God's options to enter the Kingdom is working "hard;" (Luke 13.24) That's the option God chose. Among the options for offering salvation was the person named Jesus. He's the option God chose.
Context of working "hard" in Luke 13:24 (NLT) Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom
Assertion "that God can make whatever and whomever to be the means of access." lacks scriptural support (while reply validates the narrow door/way option God chose).
John 8:54 (NLT) Jesus answered, “If I want glory for myself, it doesn’t count. ...
@Bill_Coley Read further in the John 8 scene: (emphasis added) "“If I want glory for myself, it doesn’t count. But it is my Father who will glorify me. You say, ‘He is our God,’ 55 but you don’t even know him. I know him. If I said otherwise, I would be as great a liar as you! But I do know him and obey him."
@Bill_Coley It's the perfect opportunity to claim his Godhood!
Rest of the story in John 8:56-59 has dialogue in an Ancient Jewish cultural way that Jesus is "I Am" (existing in/as God before Abraham was), which was followed by unbelieving Jews picking up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy (as they clearly understood Godhood claim by the "man" Jesus).
@Bill_Coley Your response here offers no engagement with the core of my assertion: That in John 8.54-55 Jesus says God is someone he both knows and obeys. Those are NOT the words of someone who believes himself to BE God.
A human lacks insight into another human's mind and heart. Yet Jesus truthfully knew & obeyed God while the ones talking with Jesus were liars (they knew about God, but did not know God). Appreciate clarification of assertion core since was not clear from words emphasized (while noting evasion of blasphemy reaction by original audience). What scripture supports assertion "Those are NOT the words of someone who believes himself to BE God." while being cognizant of ancient Jewish cultural expression ?
John 8:42-47 (NLT) Jesus told them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me. Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me! Which of you can truthfully accuse me of sin? And since I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don’t listen because you don’t belong to God.”
@Bill_Coley And again you make my point. Jesus tells them that he has come "from" God, that he has been "sent by" God. One who sees himself as coming from and being sent by God does not see himself to be God.
Intriguing assertion "One who sees himself as coming from and being sent by God does not see himself to be God." appears to lack scripture support. To me, Jesus (The Word) chose to leave God's throne to be born of a woman, which fulfilled God's plan: Genesis 3:15 seed of the woman => Isaiah 9:6-7 son ... Mighty God => Matthew 1:20-23 son ... Immanuel & John 1:1-18 The Word was eternally God who became human (flesh).
Demons understood Psalm 2 prophecy fulfillment where The Word (in One God's commUnity of Love) humbly chose to leave Holy Heaven to be born of a woman (her seed as prophesied). The Will (in One God's commUnity of Love) became The Father when The Word became The Son in a human seed (egg) inside Mary. Demonic decription "the Son of the Most High God" is correct physically and spiritually while leaving out that The Word already existed when angels were created (predating Abraham). Isaiah 14:12-15 describes subsequent rebellion sin against God, which caused morph of love into hate (as fallen angels changed into demons). Revelation 12 mentions a third of the stars being swept to earth so one out of three angels morphed into demons. Luke 8:28 includes demons in the possessed man powerfully inferring Jesus is God because they are begging Jesus not to torment them. God granted authority for humans to cast out demons, but not to torment them (nor to destroy them).
At the time of Jesus, a Roman Legion was 10,000+ soldiers. The demon possessed man had 10,000+ spirits with voices inside one human body. When the man was in his right mind (no more demonic voices inside), he wanted to follow Jesus. However, Jesus told the man to tell everything The God has done (self-identification by Jesus shows all of one plural unified God participated in casting out a legion of demons).
@Bill_Coley You are of course welcome to your faith perspective on these matters, but the biblical text simply does not support your claims. There is no word in the story that the demons were versed in or concerned about trinitarian thinking. In addition, Jesus did NOT tell the healed man to tell everything "The God" had done for him; he instructed the man to tell people what "God" had done for him. And as I noted in my previous post, Jesus believed he did nothing on his own, that God did works through him, so it's not surprising that he would tell the man to talk about what God had done, while the man gave credit to the healer in front of him, Jesus.
Disappointed by lack of substantive interaction with demonic (evil spirit) description of Jesus and powerful diety inference. Legion of demons had an opportunity to declare that Jesus is a man sent from God, but they were afraid of what God's spirit in Jesus could do to them (so they told the truth about Jesus while begging not to be tormented). Suggest learning to read Koine Greek. Luke 8:38-39 stilted literal translation
δὲ - but
αὐτὸν λέγων· Ὑπόστρεφε εἰς τὸν οἶκόν σου, - He (Jesus) saying: Turn back to the house of you
καὶ - and
διηγοῦ ὅσα σοι ἐποίησεν ὁ θεός. - declare all that to you was done The God
Greek word spelling indicates grammatical usage, which allows word(s) to be moved for emphasis. Luke 8:39 command to declare (or tell) ends with The God (ὁ θεός) for emphasis about who healed the man (one plural unified God). Greek definite article (the = ὁ for masculine singular nominative) is a finger pointer. Luke 8:39 documents the healed man proclaiming throughout the whole city what Jesus had done.
When Jesus replied to harassment in John 5:17, unbelieving Jewish leaders were further angered as they "righteously" remembered Leviticus 24:15-16 reason to kill Jesus for blasphemy (as they clearly understood Godhood claim by the "man" Jesus). Incredibly intense is the Love relationship between The WIll (Father) and The Word (Son) so Jesus & humans can lovingly live on every Word from One God to do God's Will, which is reflected in John 5:19-47 discourse by Jesus (includes heart assessment of Jewish leaders not having God's Love within them).
@Bill_Coley As I have pointed out numerous times, that the Jewish leaders believed Jesus was claiming to be God is NOT proof that Jesus claimed to be God. And as I have ALSO pointed out numerous times, Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God.
Puzzled by "NOT proof that Jesus claimed to be God." assertion that ignores historical Jewish cultural context. Jesus was a nomadic Jewish Rabbi, who was often invited to teach in Jewish synagogues. After hearing Jesus speak (& act), Jews had a choice to believe true words (& works) OR want to kill Jesus for blasphemy.
Assertion "Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God" restates faith perspective (with chosen way of interpreting Bible text that denies who Jesus is). Also stlll waiting for insight about Jesus speaking in parables.
Keep Smiling 😀
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Note: if assertion "Jesus is not I AM (Lord God) ... there is NOTHING in Scripture which would even suggest such" is correct, then Jewish religious leaders had no Jewish legal justification for death penalty.
But the Jewish leaders had NO Jewish (or any other) legal justifictaion for a death penalty !!! You think they did? No ... they did NOT have legal grounds at all. They falsely accused Jesus of blasphemy for what he did not claim to be!
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@Wolfgang Jesus is not I AM (Lord God) ... there is NOTHING in Scripture which would even suggest such ... there are man fabricated theologies which claim such. Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah, the man, whom God had promised to sent.
Note: if assertion "Jesus is not I AM (Lord God) ... there is NOTHING in Scripture which would even suggest such" is correct, then Jewish religious leaders had no Jewish legal justification for death penalty.
@Wolfgang But the Jewish leaders had NO Jewish (or any other) legal justifictaion for a death penalty !!! You think they did? No ... they did NOT have legal grounds at all. They falsely accused Jesus of blasphemy for what he did not claim to be!
Assertion "falsely accused Jesus of blasphemy for what he did not claim to be!" infers Jesus is a liar so Jesus is Not God and cannot be the savior for anyone (lying = sin), which is consistent with a faith belief that Jesus is only an individual man anointed/appointed by God.
Jewish religious leaders clearly understood implication from a claim by Jesus => sitting on the right hand of power means Jesus is God's King. Jewish religious leader accusations about Jesus to Pilate included Jesus being a King, which Jesus confirmed is not of this world (consistent with Jesus being God's King of Kings). Jewish religious leaders falsely accused Jesus of not paying taxes to Ceasar and subversion. Pilate recognized the Jewish religious leaders were being hypocrites (liars) who gave Pilate the choice of crucifying Jesus or dealing with Jewish riots.
Keep Smiling 😀(reflects my choice to Always Be Rejoicing in my Lord יהוה God)
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Assertion "Not true" infers The Lord God is a liar if "the mechanism" Jesus is not Lord God.
The clear meaning of the texts I cited is that God effected salvation "through" Jesus. The clear meaning of the word "through" in the contexts of those verses is that Jesus is different from God. Hence, God is not a liar.
Acts 2:22 (et al) (remind) me...
Each of your "reminds me" assertions imputes your personal faith perspective into the texts, but does not directly engage the content of the cited verse. That is, the meaning of the operative word "through" remains unchallenged by your "reminds me" declarations.
Romans 6:23 Gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord יהוה God
The text doesn't call Jesus "our Lord God."
Romans 5:10 (reconcile with God through His Son's death) is followed by Romans 5:11 => Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ
The text doesn't call Jesus "Lord God."
1 Corinthians 15:57 expresses Thanks to God for victory over sin (1 Co 15.56) through our Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ
The text doesn't call Jesus "our Lord God."
Remembering God creates Life, the context of 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 shows being in Christ is a new creation (am Thankful for God's transformation from old sin self to new Holy Love inside me). God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (God).
Yes. Anyone who is "in Christ" is a new creation, and God was "in Christ" reconciling the world to Godself. If God "in Christ" means Jesus is God, then you and I "in Christ" must mean Jesus is... us? Of course that's not true. God reconciled the world through Christ - Jesus was the means of reconciliation.
Remember Acts 9 describes author of Galatians having a personal encounter with the resurrected Lord יהוה God Jesus, which left the author physically blind for three days and caused conversion from "righteously" "righteously" persecuting those who believed in Jesus as Lord יהוה God to proclaiming Jesus is Lord יהוה God (as mentioned in Galatians 1:11-24). Galatians 1:3 greeting (and 6:18 greeting) includes Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ. Sadly Galatians 1:6-9 reminds me of Exodus 32 story about golden calf (along with reminder to rightly handle God's word of truth). One way to paraphrase beginning of Galatians 3 is: "O foolish Galatians, are you going to complete your spiritual journey in God by just relying on your own human efforts: study of scripture and righteous appearance ?" Galatians 3:10-14 declares legalistic observance does not make one right with God. The Messiah chose to become cursed for us. Believers in The Messiah receive the Holy Spirit by faith in Lord יהוה God Jesus Christ.
The cited texts don't call the resurrected Jesus "Lord God." (A pattern has developed)
Ephesians 1:5 reminds me of one long Greek sentence being numbered Ephesians 1:3-14 that has two verbs in present tense (continous action) being redeemed by blood of Jesus in 1:7 and Holy Spirit guarantee of God's promise in 1:14 (while 1:5 reminds me of Love in 1 John 3:1). Ephesians 2:13 reminds me of Ephesians 1:7 while Ephesians 2 speaks of being in God's family. Does it really make any sense for an entitiy (human) outside God's family to enable membership within God's family ? (seems a bit contradictory to me for a created human to enable membership in God's family). If Jesus is Lord יהוה God, then placement in Lord יהוה God's Holy Temple (family) for the Glory of Lord יהוה God is loving family placement.
You're welcome to your views of all texts. In my view, Ephesians 1.5 says Jesus was the means of reconciliation because that's what God "wanted to do" and doing so gave God "great pleasure," (NLT) while Ephesians 1.9 says the reconciling work through Jesus was God's "good plan." I see no textual support for the idea that God couldn't "want to do" anything God wanted to do, or execute God's plan through any chosen means.
In addition, please note that the Ephesians text does NOT say Jesus is God. In fact Ephesians 1.3 makes explicit the distinction between God, whom the author calls "the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," and Jesus. NOT ONE of the dozens of texts you have cited in our exchange in this thread has declared Jesus to be God. In order to assert that those verses made such a declaration, you've had to impute your faith perspective and its Trinitarian views into them.
Original Jewish audience understood many "I AM" statements spoken by Jesus to be Lord יהוה God's name, which unbelieving Jews considered to be blasphemy against Lord יהוה God so Jesus should be put to death (along with other deity scripture references applying to Jesus: e.g. Psalm 110:1, Daniel 7:13, Isaiah 43:10-13). Unbelieving Jews has a choice: believe truth spoken by Jesus or seek to kill Jesus (while ignoring good works).
There is no textual support for your claim that the Jewish audience responded to the "I AM" statements as declarations of personal divinity. The texts support only the view that they responded to his assertions of personal identity.
- John 10.33 - Jews tell Jesus they are stoning him for claiming to be God. [NOTE: If in your view the Jews are right to interpret Jesus' "I am" statements as assertions of divinity, are they ALSO right when in this verse they declare Jesus to be "a mere man"?]
- John 10.36 - Jesus asks why they call it blasphemy when he says "I am the Son of God." Jesus very specifically defines his "I am" statement as an assertion of his relationship TO God, NOT his identity AS God.
- Mark 14.62 - Having claimed to be the Messiah, Jesus says they will see the Son of Man seated at God's right hand - a clear distinction between God and the one seated at God's right hand.
Direct answer is original Jewish audience understood truth spoken by Jesus (some chose to believe Jesus is Lord יהוה God while unbelievers wanted Jesus to die).
There is simply no textual support for your claim. Once again you impute your personal faith perspective into the text.
The fact remains that Jesus saw fit openly to declare himself to be "the Son of Man," the "Messiah/Christ," the "Son of God," and the "Lord and teacher" of the disciples, but NEVER did he declare himself to be God.
Please answer parable questions (may help provide insight about word choices by Jesus, which relates to faith assertion "why Jesus never once directly claimed divinity").
Matthew 13.10-17 addresses your question directly. Jesus tells his disciples that he teaches in parables to hide the truth from those who are not "permitted to understand" the "secrets of the Kingdom." (Matthew 10.11)
Context of working "hard" in Luke 13:24 (NLT) Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom
Okay.
Assertion "that God can make whatever and whomever to be the means of access." lacks scriptural support (while reply validates the narrow door/way option God chose).
Isaiah 46.10: "Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish." The verse seems clearly not to restrict God's freedom of choice. Whatever God chooses to do, God can do, including using Jesus as the means of salvation.
A human lacks insight into another human's mind and heart. Yet Jesus truthfully knew & obeyed God while the ones talking with Jesus were liars (they knew about God, but did not know God). Appreciate clarification of assertion core since was not clear from words emphasized (while noting evasion of blasphemy reaction by original audience).
The texts I cited quote Jesus as describing God as one he "knows" and "obeys." You seem to agree that Jesus "obeyed God." In John 4.22, Jesus says "we Jews know all about (God)."How could one who thought himself to be God include himself among those who know and obey God?
What scripture supports assertion "Those are NOT the words of someone who believes himself to BE God." while being cognizant of ancient Jewish cultural expression ?
It's not Scripture but rather basic English language usage that supports my claim:
- "I know my brother" are words of one who is NOT his or her brother.
- "I know Mary" are words of one who is NOT Mary.
- "I know and obey my parents" are words of one who is NOT his or her parents.
- "I know and obey God" are words of one who is NOT God
One who believed himself to be God would NOT say "I know and obey God." That person would say "I am God."
Intriguing assertion "One who sees himself as coming from and being sent by God does not see himself to be God." appears to lack scripture support. To me, Jesus (The Word) chose to leave God's throne to be born of a woman, which fulfilled God's plan: Genesis 3:15 seed of the woman => Isaiah 9:6-7 son ... Mighty God => Matthew 1:20-23 son ... Immanuel & John 1:1-18 The Word was eternally God who became human (flesh).
Once again this is basic English language usage, in which one who is sent is different from the one who does the sending.
Your "to me" assertions again reflect your personal faith (glory!) but do not engage the texts.
Disappointed by lack of substantive interaction with demonic (evil spirit) description of Jesus and powerful diety inference. Legion of demons had an opportunity to declare that Jesus is a man sent from God, but they were afraid of what God's spirit in Jesus could do to them (so they told the truth about Jesus while begging not to be tormented). Suggest learning to read Koine Greek. Luke 8:38-39 stilted literal translation
The "deity inference" is of course yours, since the text can only imply, not infer. As for what the text implies, I simply don't see a deity reference.
δὲ - but
αὐτὸν λέγων· Ὑπόστρεφε εἰς τὸν οἶκόν σου, - He (Jesus) saying: Turn back to the house of you
καὶ - and
διηγοῦ ὅσα σοι ἐποίησεν ὁ θεός. - declare all that to you was done The God
Greek word spelling indicates grammatical usage, which allows word(s) to be moved for emphasis. Luke 8:39 command to declare (or tell) ends with The God (ὁ θεός) for emphasis about who healed the man (one plural unified God). Greek definite article (the = ὁ for masculine singular nominative) is a finger pointer. Luke 8:39 documents the healed man proclaiming throughout the whole city what Jesus had done.
I'm not an original languages person, but from what I can tell from other sources, ὁ θεός means "God." If you want to put "the" in front of God, go ahead.
Puzzled by "NOT proof that Jesus claimed to be God." assertion that ignores historical Jewish cultural context. Jesus was a nomadic Jewish Rabbi, who was often invited to teach in Jewish synagogues. After hearing Jesus speak (& act), Jews had a choice to believe true words (& works) OR want to kill Jesus for blasphemy.
My point is simple: Just because I say XYZ is true does not necessarily mean that XYZ is true. It MIGHT be true!! But it might also not be true. Similarly, that religious leaders said Jesus claimed to be God does not necessarily mean Jesus claimed to be God. In my view, as I've made clear, Jesus does not claim to be God.
Assertion "Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God" restates faith perspective (with chosen way of interpreting Bible text that denies who Jesus is). Also stlll waiting for insight about Jesus speaking in parables.
Whether it "restates faith perspective" or not, it remains true that Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God. If he had, you would have quoted the verse(s) many times before now.
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Assertion "falsely accused Jesus of blasphemy for what he did not claim to be!" infers Jesus is a liar so Jesus is Not God and cannot be the savior for anyone (lying = sin), which is consistent with a faith belief that Jesus is only an individual man anointed/appointed by God.
There is no such inference about Jesus being a liar at all ... Jesus was not wrong, the Jewish religious echelon were! With your ideas, the Jewish leaders would have rightfully had Jesus condemned to death because he would have been guilty. BUT Jesus was not guilty and their accusation was FALSE!!
Jewish religious leaders clearly understood implication from a claim by Jesus => sitting on the right hand of power means Jesus is God's King. Jewish religious leader accusations about Jesus to Pilate included Jesus being a King, which Jesus confirmed is not of this world (consistent with Jesus being God's King of Kings). Jewish religious leaders falsely accused Jesus of not paying taxes to Ceasar and subversion. Pilate recognized the Jewish religious leaders were being hypocrites (liars) who gave Pilate the choice of crucifying Jesus or dealing with Jewish riots.
Jewish religious leaders were indeed absolutely correct in NOT thinking that Jesus was God and they never implied such really, they willfully rejected him as the Messiah whom God had sent and made up false accusation to have him killed.
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Remembering God creates Life, the context of 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 shows being in Christ is a new creation (am Thankful for God's transformation from old sin self to new Holy Love inside me). God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (God).
@Bill_Coley Yes. Anyone who is "in Christ" is a new creation, and God was "in Christ" reconciling the world to Godself. If God "in Christ" means Jesus is God, then you and I "in Christ" must mean Jesus is... us?
Thankful God planned and provided a spiritual way for every believer to be in One God's commUnity of Love (while a plural unified God remains being One God who can lovingly interact with human believers)
@Bill_Coley Of course that's not true. God reconciled the world through Christ - Jesus was the means of reconciliation.
One letter about God's reconciliation purpose (Love) is First John. Suggest using an audio Bible so can listen to the entire letter (similar to early believers gathering so one could read a letter to everyone).
Original Jewish audience understood many "I AM" statements spoken by Jesus to be Lord יהוה God's name, which unbelieving Jews considered to be blasphemy against Lord יהוה God so Jesus should be put to death (along with other deity scripture references applying to Jesus: e.g. Psalm 110:1, Daniel 7:13, Isaiah 43:10-13). Unbelieving Jews has a choice: believe truth spoken by Jesus or seek to kill Jesus (while ignoring good works).
@Bill_Coley There is no textual support for your claim that the Jewish audience responded to the "I AM" statements as declarations of personal divinity. The texts support only the view that they responded to his assertions of personal identity.
- John 10.33 - Jews tell Jesus they are stoning him for claiming to be God. [NOTE: If in your view the Jews are right to interpret Jesus' "I am" statements as assertions of divinity, are they ALSO right when in this verse they declare Jesus to be "a mere man"?]
- John 10.36 - Jesus asks why they call it blasphemy when he says "I am the Son of God." Jesus very specifically defines his "I am" statement as an assertion of his relationship TO God, NOT his identity AS God.
- Mark 14.62 - Having claimed to be the Messiah, Jesus says they will see the Son of Man seated at God's right hand - a clear distinction between God and the one seated at God's right hand.
After praying for God to open my eyes (spiritually), read John 10:22-42 and Mark 14:43-72 for contextual reminders and insights.
- John 10.31-33 scripture text is correct about unbelieving Jews wanting to kill Jesus for blasphemy since they believed all human flesh was evil (born spiritually dead) while not considering Truth spoken by Jesus. They understood John 10:30 as "I and The Father are One God."
- John 10:36 provides reason to learn more Greek so can research if "I am" in John 10:36 is a verb with pronoun suffix (εἰμι) or God's Name "ἐγώ εἰμι" in John 10:7, 10:9, 10:11, 10:14 (reminds me of Psalm 23). Stilted literal translation of "Υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰμι" is "Son of The God I am", which reminds me that Jesus, Son of God, is the promised human descendant of King David to fulfill God's plan for redemption. Son relationship includes an unchangeable family identity. If Jesus is not God, then phrase "I am the Son of God." in John 10:36 is an identity lie.
- John 10:40-42 change of location to the Jordan River, where John had been immersing at first, has many people remembering John did no miracles, but all that John said about Jesus was True so they believed in Jesus (as Lord יהוה God).
- Mark 14:62 has three Jewish declarations by Jesus about being Lord יהוה God. First is I AM "ἐγώ εἰμι" that reminded Jewish listeners of Exodus 3:14 and other passages: e.g. Isaiah 43:25, 45:19, 51:12 (where I AM I AM is repeated by Lord יהוה God for emphasis). God's heavenly throne, where One Spirit Being (God) righteously rules, has two seats: The Will (Father) and The Word (Son). Concur Father and Son are distinct while disagreeing on degree of distinction: to me, Father and Son are two roles within One God's commUnity of Love. They eternally exist together with Ruach HaKodesh in One God's "SINGLE SPIRIT Being".
- Mark 14:47 has a note in my Complete Jewish Study Bible. To me, Peter chose a sword to visably send "You're Fired !" message to the servant of the high priest. Jesus showed mercy and compassion to the servant by healing ear (removed blemish), which restored free will choice about serving in God's Temple. Jesus also lovingly rebuked Peter.
Direct answer is original Jewish audience understood truth spoken by Jesus (some chose to believe Jesus is Lord יהוה God while unbelievers wanted Jesus to die).
@Bill_Coley There is simply no textual support for your claim. Once again you impute your personal faith perspective into the text.
John 10:40-42 is a textual example of original Jewish audience believing while John 10:31-39 is an example of unbelievers wanting Jesus to die.
@Bill_Coley The fact remains that Jesus saw fit openly to declare himself to be "the Son of Man," the "Messiah/Christ," the "Son of God," and the "Lord and teacher" of the disciples, but NEVER did he declare himself to be God.
Please explain command by Jesus in Luke 8:39 to tell how much The God has done.
Please answer parable questions (may help provide insight about word choices by Jesus, which relates to faith assertion "why Jesus never once directly claimed divinity").
@Bill_Coley Matthew 13.10-17 addresses your question directly. Jesus tells his disciples that he teaches in parables to hide the truth from those who are not "permitted to understand" the "secrets of the Kingdom." (Matthew 10.11)
Remember original Jewish audiences had a variety of people, including teachers of Torah who had spent years studying (memorized every letter and word of Torah along with oral law/commentary). Matthew 13:13 (NLT) For they look, but they don’t really see. They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand. (somewhere during intense Torah study and daily routine reciting scriptures, prayers, ... their hearts drifted away from God, which is puzzling along with verifying our spiritual advisary is persistent). Prayerfully pondering Matthew 13:13 gave insight to Matthew 6:1-6 since self "righteous" teachers (had become hypocrites) showed off in front of others and Luke 18:9-14 parable about praying (included self-righteous adoration by one, which reflected a heart turned away from Loving God first). Thankful for this discussion as a reminder/warning from God to guard my heart for an ongoing right relationship with Him. In Matthew 13:14-15, Jesus quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 that reminds me God's prophecies are true with fulfillment(s) determined by God. Human prayers include me Thanking God plus asking for wisdom to recognize God answering prayer and fulfilling prophecies.
Earlier post on this page had two parable questions:
Earlier "What was the purpose of Jesus teaching in parables ?" remains unanswered. Corollary is: "What is the faith purpose of parables ?"
Matthew 13.10-17 answers the first question while "What is the faith purpose of parables ?" is still waiting for reply.
@Bill_Coley The meaning and implications of John 14.6 are many and worthy of threads of their own. For this moment, I note only that God can make whatever and whomever to be the means of access.
Assertion logically contracts teaching by Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:22-30 (by implying many ways to God while not providing any scripture collaboration about God choosing whatever and whomever to be the means of access)
@Bill_Coley No logical contradiction. Among God's options for entrance to the Kingdom is a "narrow" way; (Matthew 7.13) that's the option God chose. Among God's options to enter the Kingdom is working "hard;" (Luke 13.24) That's the option God chose. Among the options for offering salvation was the person named Jesus. He's the option God chose.
Context of working "hard" in Luke 13:24 (NLT) Work hard to enter the narrow door to God’s Kingdom
@Bill_Coley Okay
Assertion "that God can make whatever and whomever to be the means of access." lacks scriptural support (while reply validates the narrow door/way option God chose).
@Bill_Coley Isaiah 46.10: "Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish." The verse seems clearly not to restrict God's freedom of choice. Whatever God chooses to do, God can do, including using Jesus as the means of salvation.
How consistent is God's character and planning ? Lord God also spoke Isaiah 43:10-11 and 45:21-22
Assertion "Not true" infers The Lord God is a liar if "the mechanism" Jesus is not Lord God.
@Bill_Coley The clear meaning of the texts I cited is that God effected salvation "through" Jesus. The clear meaning of the word "through" in the contexts of those verses is that Jesus is different from God. Hence, God is not a liar.
We agree Lord יהוה God effected salvation "through" Jesus while disagreeing about who Jesus is. Lord יהוה God spoke through the prophet Isaiah:
Isaiah 43:10-11 (NLT) “But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says the Lord. “You are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, believe in me, and understand that I alone am God. There is no other God— there never has been, and there never will be. I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other Savior.
Isaiah 45:21-22 (NLT) Was it not I, the Lord? For there is no other God but me, a righteous God and Savior. There is none but me. Let all the world look to me for salvation!
A human lacks insight into another human's mind and heart. Yet Jesus truthfully knew & obeyed God while the ones talking with Jesus were liars (they knew about God, but did not know God). Appreciate clarification of assertion core since was not clear from words emphasized (while noting evasion of blasphemy reaction by original audience).
@Bill_Coley The texts I cited quote Jesus as describing God as one he "knows" and "obeys." You seem to agree that Jesus "obeyed God." In John 4.22, Jesus says "we Jews know all about (God)."How could one who thought himself to be God include himself among those who know and obey God?
Humanly unable to answer completely how Jesus truthfully knew & obeyed God (due to me being human while God is God). When this world was created, The Word of God (later became Jesus) spoke to do The Will of God (became Father when The Word was miraculously placed into one human egg to be born spiritually alive). Searching Words of Christ for ("from heaven","not of this world") finds 18 verses in the 2015 NLT that includes bread of life from heaven in John 6 and Jesus knowing His kingdom is not of this world in testifying about Truth before Pilate in John 18
What scripture supports assertion "Those are NOT the words of someone who believes himself to BE God." while being cognizant of ancient Jewish cultural expression ?
@Bill_Coley It's not Scripture but rather basic English language usage that supports my claim:
"I know my brother" are words of one who is NOT his or her brother.
"I know Mary" are words of one who is NOT Mary.
"I know and obey my parents" are words of one who is NOT his or her parents.
"I know and obey God" are words of one who is NOT God
One who believed himself to be God would NOT say "I know and obey God." That person would say "I am God."
Cultural lesson learned about English was the study of Shakespearian plays, which included a number of comedies where joke(s) made no sense to me due to my lack of cultural connection with the English people living during Shakespeare's time (so tongue in cheek references to common life experiences, which were hilarious to original audience, were meaningless to me). While pondering Shakespeare, thought about scenario(s) where Mary could say "I know Mary" (as a joke or a way to learn more about someone seeking Mary without revealing she is Mary). Also thought about tongue-in-cheek examples for the other basic English language usage examples (so basic English language assertions ring hollow to me).
Original language autographs of the Bible were written over a thousand years before English language and culture. Thankful for my translation understanding being expanded by this discussion. Translation is the intersection of original language meaning with target language vocabulary within the bounds of translator's believability, which miss original cultural idiomatic expression. My personal study about the historical Jewishness of Jesus is helping me understand more of Gd's Truth & Love: e.g. Gd's Name is not spoken out loud by Jews. On Yom-Kippur (day of atonement), the cohen hagadol (High Priest) would speak Gd's Name correctly while offering sacrifices in the Holy of Holies. When Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh is in a synagogue reading, Jews say Adonai (Lord). Jewish word association is Lord with Gd's Most Holy Name (includes daily prayers plus synagogue readings & discussions). Searching LXX for Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh found 6,358 occurences with 6,040 of them translated into Greek as Kurios (Lord) while the other 318 were translated as Theos (God). When Bible books were originally being written, Jewish cultural conventions were assumed for original audience (so cultural explanation/insight are missing from scripture text since that cultural knowledge was assumed).
Jewish Life calendar for 5780 uses Hebrew letters to count the days of the month from one to thirty, which has numeric values of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 10+1, 10+2, 10+3, 10+4, 9+6, 9+7, 10+7, 10+8, 10+9, 20, 20+1, 20+2, 20+3, 20+4, 20+5, 20+6, 20+7, 20+8, 20+9, 30 that is different than English cultural convention for fifteen and sixteen. Thankful for a Jewish friend explaining that Yud has a numeric value of 10 while Heh has a value of 5 and Vav has a value of 6 so letters different than Gd's name are used for counting 15 and 16.
@Bill_Coley Once again this is basic English language usage, in which one who is sent is different from the one who does the sending.
In the Sports realm, a player coach can say "I know and obey the head coach." As a coach, can choose self to play so the one sent to play is the same human individual as the one sending player into the game. Business world also has counter examples about the one being sent to negotiate being the same person as the one choosing to pursue negotiations. From my perspective, human wisdom of "in which one who is sent is different from the one who does the sending" is hollow due to valid human counter examples (so "wisdom" assertion depends on situation).
Assertion "Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God" restates faith perspective (with chosen way of interpreting Bible text that denies who Jesus is). Also stlll waiting for insight about Jesus speaking in parables.
@Bill_Coley Whether it "restates faith perspective" or not, it remains true that Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God. If he had, you would have quoted the verse(s) many times before now.
Primary point of this thread is if Jesus is Not God, then Jesus cannot be savior for anyone (a sinner cannot be the sinless sacrifice for the sins of the world). If Jesus is not God, then many scripture verses lie about Jesus so leaves me wondering how much of the Bible has truthful value for those who believe Jesus is not God ? God is Truth so lies do not come from God, but from our spiritual adversary, who kills, steals, and destroys.
Assertion "it remains true that Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God" reminds me of seed that fell on a footpath so the birds came and ate them (stealing away the Word of Truth, which has been implied/inferred in a number of replies). Please read reply to @Wolfgang below that has Greek language I AM "ἐγώ εἰμι" from LXX (Swete's Septuagint from 1909) and SBLGNT (Society of Biblical Languages Greek New Testament)
Luke 8:39 command by Jesus is a counter example to "it remains true that Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God" since Greek text for Luke 8:39 has both the definite article (ὁ) and noun (θεός that transliterates to theos, which is part of word etymology for theology = God studying). Jesus commanded the man, who had 10,000+ demonic spirits cast out of him, to tell what The (ὁ) God (θεός) had done.
Nature of God's Love needs a willful choice by humans to believe/love God. In the Garden of Eden, God choose to create humans with free will to choose (sadly Adam & Eve chose to disobey God). If repeating verse(s) would have changed heart beliefs in God, would have quoted them over and over. God created humans with free will to choose, which can include turning away from God after experiencing God => Hebrews 6:4-8 (while Thankful for God doing what is humanly impossible for me: restored flavor to tasteless salt after my choice to repent & turn back to God)
@Wolfgang There is no such inference about Jesus being a liar at all ... Jesus was not wrong, the Jewish religious echelon were! With your ideas, the Jewish leaders would have rightfully had Jesus condemned to death because he would have been guilty. BUT Jesus was not guilty and their accusation was FALSE!!
Assertion "Jesus was not guilty" => Jesus spoke Truth. Caiaphas (and Jewish religious council) responded to Jesus answering a question about being The Christ (The Messiah) by declaring blasphemy that was deserving of death:
Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matthew 26:57-68 (ESV)
Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered. And Peter was following him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and going inside he sat with the guards to see the end. Now the chief priests and the whole council were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death, but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward and said, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.’ ” And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.” Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?”
Jewish religious leaders clearly understood implication from a claim by Jesus => sitting on the right hand of power means Jesus is God's King. Jewish religious leader accusations about Jesus to Pilate included Jesus being a King, which Jesus confirmed is not of this world (consistent with Jesus being God's King of Kings). Jewish religious leaders falsely accused Jesus of not paying taxes to Ceasar and subversion. Pilate recognized the Jewish religious leaders were being hypocrites (liars) who gave Pilate the choice of crucifying Jesus or dealing with Jewish riots.
@Wolfgang Jewish religious leaders were indeed absolutely correct in NOT thinking that Jesus was God and they never implied such really, they willfully rejected him as the Messiah whom God had sent and made up false accusation to have him killed.
Jewish religious charge for Jesus to die is blasphemy (cursing God) so the Jewish religious leaders plainly understood Jesus truthfully stating He is God in human flesh using Jewish culturally correct terminology (with implied scripture references). My heart hears Jewish religious leaders expressing their own "righteous" indignation about Jesus (instead of worshipping Jesus as Lord יהוה God, yet Jesus forgave on the cross). Personally wonder how many of these Jewish religious leaders later choose to accept God's forgiveness and worship Jesus as Lord יהוה God ?
@Wolfgang Jesus is not I AM (Lord God) ... there is NOTHING in Scripture which would even suggest such ... there are man fabricated theologies which claim such. Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah, the man, whom God had promised to sent.
Assertion " Jesus is not I AM (Lord God) ... there is NOTHING in Scripture which would even suggest such" reminds me of seed that fell on a footpath so the birds came and ate them (stealing away the Word of Truth, which has been emphatically stated in a number of replies).
Searching LXX for "ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι" finds results in Isaiah 43:25, 45:19, 51:12 (none of them are followed by ὁ ὤν that is in Exodus 3:14)
Isaiah 45:19 (LES) I have not spoken in secret or in a dark place of the earth. I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek vanity!’ I am, I am the Lord who speaks righteousness and announces truth.”
Searching SBLGNT for "ἐγώ εἰμι" finds 47 verses with four in the synoptic Gospels spoken by Jesus about Jesus: e.g. Luke 24:39 (my heart jumps for Joy about God's Spirit being in resurrected human body of Jesus). Most results in John are Jesus being I AM (Lord God) while John 9:9 refers to the man healed by the pool of Siloam. Jesus spoke "ἐγώ εἰμι" as God's name in Matthew 22:32 when reminding Jewish audience what God said.
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus postSmiling
Thankful God planned and provided a spiritual way for every believer to be in One God's commUnity of Love (while a plural unified God remains being One God who can lovingly interact with human believers)
That's simply not what 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 or any other text says.
One letter about God's reconciliation purpose (Love) is First John. Suggest using an audio Bible so can listen to the entire letter (similar to early believers gathering so one could read a letter to everyone).
I'll welcome a citation of a particular passage within 1 John, but I know of no text in that letter or anywhere else in Scripture that contradicts what I claim to be the clear meaning of the word "through."
John 10.31-33 scripture text is correct about unbelieving Jews wanting to kill Jesus for blasphemy since they believed all human flesh was evil (born spiritually dead) while not considering Truth spoken by Jesus. They understood John 10:30 as "I and The Father are One God."
My question to you was this: If you think the crowd correctly discerned that Jesus was claiming to be God, do you also believe they correctly discerned that Jesus was "a mere man"?
John 10:36 provides reason to learn more Greek so can research if "I am" in John 10:36 is a verb with pronoun suffix (εἰμι) or God's Name "ἐγώ εἰμι" in John 10:7, 10:9, 10:11, 10:14 (reminds me of Psalm 23). Stilted literal translation of "Υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰμι" is "Son of The God I am", which reminds me that Jesus, Son of God, is the promised human descendant of King David to fulfill God's plan for redemption. Son relationship includes an unchangeable family identity. If Jesus is not God, then phrase "I am the Son of God." in John 10:36 is an identity lie.
My point remains that in identifying himself as the Son of God, Jesus explicitly defines what his "I am" statement means, and in the process, what it doesn't mean. It DOESN'T mean that he believes himself to be God. Your commentary about the Greek text doesn't help me understand your response to my point.
John 10:40-42 change of location to the Jordan River, where John had been immersing at first, has many people remembering John did no miracles, but all that John said about Jesus was True so they believed in Jesus (as Lord יהוה God).
John 10.40-42 does NOT say "they believed in Jesus (as Lord יהוה God)." It says they believed in Jesus. Again you import your faith perspective into the text.
Mark 14:62 has three Jewish declarations by Jesus about being Lord יהוה God. First is I AM "ἐγώ εἰμι" that reminded Jewish listeners of Exodus 3:14 and other passages: e.g. Isaiah 43:25, 45:19, 51:12 (where I AM I AM is repeated by Lord יהוה God for emphasis). God's heavenly throne, where One Spirit Being (God) righteously rules, has two seats: The Will (Father) and The Word (Son). Concur Father and Son are distinct while disagreeing on degree of distinction: to me, Father and Son are two roles within One God's commUnity of Love. They eternally exist together with Ruach HaKodesh in One God's "SINGLE SPIRIT Being".
Jesus' "I am" response at the beginning of Mark 14.62 is his answer to a specific question posed to him in Mark 14.61: "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” In context, there is no evidence that it would have "reminded Jewish listeners of Exodus 3:14 and other passages." Instead, the context suggests it would have reminded listeners that Jesus was saying "yes" to a specific question.
I agree that we disagree about the distinction between God and Jesus as the Son of God.
John 10:40-42 is a textual example of original Jewish audience believing while John 10:31-39 is an example of unbelievers wanting Jesus to die.
Again, John 10.40-42 does NOT say many believed in Jesus as Lord God.
Please explain command by Jesus in Luke 8:39 to tell how much The God has done.
You've asked and I've answered this question before.
Jesus clearly believes that his power and authority come from God (John 5.19,30). Therefore, he naturally credits God for any healings he (Jesus) completes. In Luke 8.39, he instructs the healed to tell people what God - the one who healed them through Jesus has done for them.
Remember original Jewish audiences had a variety of people, including teachers of Torah who had spent years studying (memorized every letter and word of Torah along with oral law/commentary). Matthew 13:13 (NLT) For they look, but they don’t really see. They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand. (somewhere during intense Torah study and daily routine reciting scriptures, prayers, ... their hearts drifted away from God, which is puzzling along with verifying our spiritual advisary is persistent). Prayerfully pondering Matthew 13:13 gave insight to Matthew 6:1-6 since self "righteous" teachers (had become hypocrites) showed off in front of others and Luke 18:9-14 parable about praying (included self-righteous adoration by one, which reflected a heart turned away from Loving God first). Thankful for this discussion as a reminder/warning from God to guard my heart for an ongoing right relationship with Him. In Matthew 13:14-15, Jesus quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 that reminds me God's prophecies are true with fulfillment(s) determined by God. Human prayers include me Thanking God plus asking for wisdom to recognize God answering prayer and fulfilling prophecies.
I don't see how these comments are germane to our discussion of the divinity of Jesus.
How consistent is God's character and planning ? Lord God also spoke Isaiah 43:10-11 and 45:21-22
We agree that God is the one who does the saving. In my view, Romans 3.24, Romans 5.15, Romans 6.23 (among MANY others) make clear that God effects salvation through Jesus.
We agree Lord יהוה God effected salvation "through" Jesus while disagreeing about who Jesus is. Lord יהוה God spoke through the prophet Isaiah:
See above.
Humanly unable to answer completely how Jesus truthfully knew & obeyed God (due to me being human while God is God). When this world was created, The Word of God (later became Jesus) spoke to do The Will of God (became Father when The Word was miraculously placed into one human egg to be born spiritually alive). Searching Words of Christ for ("from heaven","not of this world") finds 18 verses in the 2015 NLT that includes bread of life from heaven in John 6 and Jesus knowing His kingdom is not of this world in testifying about Truth before Pilate in John 18
What's clear to me about the text is that Jesus considers himself to be a member of the group of people called "Jews" who "know and obey" God. To me, the consequence of that to our discussion is clear: Jesus obviously does NOT see himself as God. With due respect, it's not clear to me from your response what you make of Jesus' "know and obey" claim.
In the Sports realm, a player coach can say "I know and obey the head coach." As a coach, can choose self to play so the one sent to play is the same human individual as the one sending player into the game. Business world also has counter examples about the one being sent to negotiate being the same person as the one choosing to pursue negotiations. From my perspective, human wisdom of "in which one who is sent is different from the one who does the sending" is hollow due to valid human counter examples (so "wisdom" assertion depends on situation).
This is another area about which you've previously asked and I've previously answered.
Primary point of this thread is if Jesus is Not God, then Jesus cannot be savior for anyone (a sinner cannot be the sinless sacrifice for the sins of the world). If Jesus is not God, then many scripture verses lie about Jesus so leaves me wondering how much of the Bible has truthful value for those who believe Jesus is not God ? God is Truth so lies do not come from God, but from our spiritual adversary, who kills, steals, and destroys.
And this, too, is a point you've made and I've addressed previously.
Assertion "it remains true that Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God" reminds me of seed that fell on a footpath so the birds came and ate them (stealing away the Word of Truth, which has been implied/inferred in a number of replies). Please read reply to @Wolfgang below that has Greek language I AM "ἐγώ εἰμι" from LXX (Swete's Septuagint from 1909) and SBLGNT (Society of Biblical Languages Greek New Testament)
So you contend that Jesus was willing to call himself the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Son of Man who would one day return, but he decided to leave to others to infer that he was God? That makes no sense to me at all, and in my view, is not at all consistent with the NT witness.
Luke 8:39 command by Jesus is a counter example to "it remains true that Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God" since Greek text for Luke 8:39 has both the definite article (ὁ) and noun (θεός that transliterates to theos, which is part of word etymology for theology = God studying). Jesus commanded the man, who had 10,000+ demonic spirits cast out of him, to tell what The (ὁ) God (θεός) had done.
We've addressed this issue previously as well. The man gives credit to the healer in front of him. Jesus gives credit to the one he knows to be the true source of the healing he has completed.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote
Assertion "Jesus was not guilty" => Jesus spoke Truth. Caiaphas (and Jewish religious council) responded to Jesus answering a question about being The Christ (The Messiah) by declaring blasphemy that was deserving of death:
Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matthew 26:57-68 (ESV)
Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered. And Peter was following him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and going inside he sat with the guards to see the end. Now the chief priests and the whole council were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death, but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward and said, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.’ ” And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.” Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?”
Thank you for posting the above passage from Mt 26 ... there is nothing in the high priest's question nor in Jesus' answer that has any reference to a Jesus is God idea. Why are you not reading what the text actually says? Else, in case you are reading correctly, why are you not believing what you read?? Where did the high priest ask "Tell us if you are the living God" ??? The high priest knew that the promised Messiah of the OT was NOT himself God, but was to be the SON OF God ... as his words to Jesus clearly show. He demands of Jesus to tell him if he is the Messiah, the SON OF God. This Jesus confirms that he is the SON OF God by saying "You said it."
Jewish religious charge for Jesus to die is blasphemy (cursing God) so the Jewish religious leaders plainly understood Jesus truthfully stating He is God in human flesh using Jewish culturally correct terminology (with implied scripture references).
Again you are putting words and ideas into the text which totally change what Scripture does state. The Jewish religious leaders never even once thought or understood that Jesus is God or that Jesus claimed to be God. There is no idea whatever of a "God in human flesh" in Jewish cultural terminology ... Such nonsense idea is solely what you state in the following:
My heart hears Jewish religious leaders expressing their own "righteous" indignation about Jesus (instead of worshipping Jesus as Lord יהוה God, yet Jesus forgave on the cross). Personally wonder how many of these Jewish religious leaders later choose to accept God's forgiveness and worship Jesus as Lord יהוה God ?
You make your own ideas ("what my heart hears", previously stated as s"my faith perspective" or similar) to equal to or to be Scripture ...
Searching LXX for "ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι" finds results in Isaiah 43:25, 45:19, 51:12 (none of them are followed by ὁ ὤν that is in Exodus 3:14)
Isaiah 45:19 (LES) I have not spoken in secret or in a dark place of the earth. I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek vanity!’ I am, I am the Lord who speaks righteousness and announces truth.”
Searching SBLGNT for "ἐγώ εἰμι" finds 47 verses with four in the synoptic Gospels spoken by Jesus about Jesus: e.g. Luke 24:39 (my heart jumps for Joy about God's Spirit being in resurrected human body of Jesus). Most results in John are Jesus being I AM (Lord God) while John 9:9 refers to the man healed by the pool of Siloam. Jesus spoke "ἐγώ εἰμι" as God's name in Matthew 22:32 when reminding Jewish audience what God said.
See comment above concerning your apparent reading ability or insertion of own ideas and thereby changing the Biblical text.
In NONE of those verses you cited from your text search do the words "ἐγώ εἰμι" mean anything different from their regular meaning of ἐγώ = "I" and εἰμι = "am" ...there is NOTHING in the text of what make those words to supposedly mean.
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Primary point of this thread is if Jesus is Not God, then Jesus cannot be savior for anyone (a sinner cannot be the sinless sacrifice for the sins of the world).
Your assumption appears to be that if Jesus is not God, Jesus must be a sinner (and because of that he cannot be savior for anyone). This assumption is false because just as the first man (Adam) was a human being and not God and yet without sin, so was the second Adam (Jesus) a human being and not God yet without sin. Whereas Adam then committed sin and became a sinner, Jesus did not commit sin and thus could be the sinless sacrifice for sin ... cp. Rom 5:12ff which clearly states that sin came into the world by one MAN (Adam) via his disobedience to God, so did salvation from sin come by one MAN (Jesus) via his obedience to God.
If Jesus is not God, then many scripture verses lie about Jesus so leaves me wondering how much of the Bible has truthful value for those who believe Jesus is not God ?
Your ideas about Jesus which contradict plain Scriptures should cause you to wonder about how much of those dogmas you hold to as your faith perspective are faulty and need correction in order to align with Biblical truth.
God is Truth so lies do not come from God, but from our spiritual adversary, who kills, steals, and destroys.
Indeed ... therefore you are encouraged to not go by your faith perspective and your ideas, but rather evaluate what you currently believe in light of Scripture to then align what you believe with what Scripture plainly says.
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Jesus is God the Father come as a son of man.
Revelation 4:8
And each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around and within. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
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@YourTruthGod posted:
Jesus is God the Father come as a son of man.
Revelation 4.8 is often cited by advocates of Trinitarian theology, in my view, incorrectly.
John the Revelator identifies the one who was, is, and is to come in Revelation 1.4, which in part reads:
"Grace and peace to you from the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come; from the sevenfold Spirit before his throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ."
The language of this verse makes clear that for John, the one who is, was, and is to come is someone other than Jesus Christ. In Revelation 4.8 John tells us that that one is God.
A bit of simple logic and word substitution produces this result: For John the Revelator, God is someone other than Jesus Christ (and of course, Jesus Christ is someone other than God).
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@YourTruthGod wrote
Jesus is God the Father come as a son of man.
Hmn .... Jesus is God in disguise (a father disguised himself as his own son)???
And each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around and within. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
Those who accurately read definitely have an advantage ... Rev 4:8 (even in the version you quote) rather clearly states Who is worshiped day and night and spoken of => and it is NOT Jesus the Messiah.
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@Bill_Coley wrote
A bit of simple logic and word substitution produces this result: For John the Revelator, God is someone other than Jesus Christ (and of course, Jesus Christ is someone other than God).
Simple logic and accurate reading are not desired to be used by dogma influenced folks ... because the use of such would reveal the propagators of lies rather quickly for what they are. If one can stop people from using simple logic, reason and accurate reading, one can even make them believe that a father is his own son and a son is his own father ... for - after all - "with God all things are possible" 😉
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@YourTruthGod posted:
Jesus is God the Father come as a son of man.
Assertion has puzzling wording so please clarify. If "Jesus is God the Father" then who is Abba for prayers by Jesus ?
Thankful God planned and provided a spiritual way for every believer to be in One God's commUnity of Love (while a plural unified God remains being One God who can lovingly interact with human believers)
@Bill_Coley That's simply not what 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 or any other text says.
Human hypothesis is inability to be an example for others while lacking in self: e.g. cannot show being a new creation in Christ (united with the Messiah) when personally am not living as a new creation in Christ (living by trust in One God so can truly experience God's commUnity of Love)
One letter about God's reconciliation purpose (Love) is First John. Suggest using an audio Bible so can listen to the entire letter (similar to early believers gathering so one could read a letter to everyone).
@Bill_Coley I'll welcome a citation of a particular passage within 1 John, but I know of no text in that letter or anywhere else in Scripture that contradicts what I claim to be the clear meaning of the word "through."
Purpose of God's reconciliation is Love "through" Jesus to God (choosing God's salvation leads to a Holy Love relationship in God).
John 10.31-33 scripture text is correct about unbelieving Jews wanting to kill Jesus for blasphemy since they believed all human flesh was evil (born spiritually dead) while not considering Truth spoken by Jesus. They understood John 10:30 as "I and The Father are One God."
@Bill_Coley My question to you was this: If you think the crowd correctly discerned that Jesus was claiming to be God, do you also believe they correctly discerned that Jesus was "a mere man"?
In the Jewish crowd, the ones picking up stones for the purpose of killing Jesus believed Jesus was "a mere man" (who ought to die for blasphemy). Action of picking up stones to kill shows intensity of personal "righteous" indignation about Jesus claiming to be God in human flesh.
John 10:36 provides reason to learn more Greek so can research if "I am" in John 10:36 is a verb with pronoun suffix (εἰμι) or God's Name "ἐγώ εἰμι" in John 10:7, 10:9, 10:11, 10:14 (reminds me of Psalm 23). Stilted literal translation of "Υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰμι" is "Son of The God I am", which reminds me that Jesus, Son of God, is the promised human descendant of King David to fulfill God's plan for redemption. Son relationship includes an unchangeable family identity. If Jesus is not God, then phrase "I am the Son of God." in John 10:36 is an identity lie.
@Bill_Coley My point remains that in identifying himself as the Son of God, Jesus explicitly defines what his "I am" statement means, and in the process, what it doesn't mean. It DOESN'T mean that he believes himself to be God. Your commentary about the Greek text doesn't help me understand your response to my point.
Faith perspective asserts text "doesn't mean" what the text says. My stilted literal translation can be expanded to include present tense action (continuous): "Son of The God I am being." while realizing phrase word order emphasizes "I am being" (verb ends phrase instead of verb being in the middle). Jesus is declaring to be physically from/of The God (consistent with "sperm" being God for fertilization of human egg inside Mary).
John 10:40-42 change of location to the Jordan River, where John had been immersing at first, has many people remembering John did no miracles, but all that John said about Jesus was True so they believed in Jesus (as Lord יהוה God).
@Bill_Coley John 10.40-42 does NOT say "they believed in Jesus (as Lord יהוה God)." It says they believed in Jesus. Again you import your faith perspective into the text.
Remember John the Baptist (Immerser) came to prepare the way of Lord יהוה God (to fulfill prophecies in Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:23)
Mark 14:62 has three Jewish declarations by Jesus about being Lord יהוה God. First is I AM "ἐγώ εἰμι" that reminded Jewish listeners of Exodus 3:14 and other passages: e.g. Isaiah 43:25, 45:19, 51:12 (where I AM I AM is repeated by Lord יהוה God for emphasis). God's heavenly throne, where One Spirit Being (God) righteously rules, has two seats: The Will (Father) and The Word (Son). Concur Father and Son are distinct while disagreeing on degree of distinction: to me, Father and Son are two roles within One God's commUnity of Love. They eternally exist together with Ruach HaKodesh in One God's "SINGLE SPIRIT Being".
@Bill_Coley Jesus' "I am" response at the beginning of Mark 14.62 is his answer to a specific question posed to him in Mark 14.61: "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” In context, there is no evidence that it would have "reminded Jewish listeners of Exodus 3:14 and other passages." Instead, the context suggests it would have reminded listeners that Jesus was saying "yes" to a specific question.
Original audience for Mark 14.62 is Jewish Sanhedrin (religious council) members, which is the supreme court for Jewish matters that includes implementing and observing 613 commands (mitzvot) in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Personally would be surprised if any Sanhedrin member had not memorized every letter and word of Torah along with oral traditions (Torah knowledge would be needed for legal discussions about Jewish matters). Blasphemy declaration by High Priest was a Jewish legal judgement, which is evidence of these Jewish listeners being reminded about Exodus 3:14 and other passages followed by interpreting truth spoken by Jesus as cursing Gd (so Jesus deserved to die).
John 10:40-42 is a textual example of original Jewish audience believing while John 10:31-39 is an example of unbelievers wanting Jesus to die.
@Bill_Coley Again, John 10.40-42 does NOT say many believed in Jesus as Lord God.
Remember scripture explains scripture, which was called Sola Scriptura by Reformers while Jews call it "stringing pearls." John 10:40-42 is consistent with Isaiah 40:3
Please explain command by Jesus in Luke 8:39 to tell how much The God has done.
@Bill_Coley You've asked and I've answered this question before.
@Bill_Coley Jesus clearly believes that his power and authority come from God (John 5.19,30). Therefore, he naturally credits God for any healings he (Jesus) completes. In Luke 8.39, he instructs the healed to tell people what God - the one who healed them through Jesus has done for them.
Greek has words for "through", but Jesus did not use any of them in Luke 8:39 command to the healed man. Legion of demons were cast out from one man by the words of Jesus (into a herd of 2,000+ pigs), yet Jesus commanded the healed man to "tell how much The God has done."
Remember original Jewish audiences had a variety of people, including teachers of Torah who had spent years studying (memorized every letter and word of Torah along with oral law/commentary). Matthew 13:13 (NLT) For they look, but they don’t really see. They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand. (somewhere during intense Torah study and daily routine reciting scriptures, prayers, ... their hearts drifted away from God, which is puzzling along with verifying our spiritual advisary is persistent). Prayerfully pondering Matthew 13:13 gave insight to Matthew 6:1-6 since self "righteous" teachers (had become hypocrites) showed off in front of others and Luke 18:9-14 parable about praying (included self-righteous adoration by one, which reflected a heart turned away from Loving God first). Thankful for this discussion as a reminder/warning from God to guard my heart for an ongoing right relationship with Him. In Matthew 13:14-15, Jesus quotes Isaiah 6:9-10 that reminds me God's prophecies are true with fulfillment(s) determined by God. Human prayers include me Thanking God plus asking for wisdom to recognize God answering prayer and fulfilling prophecies.
@Bill_Coley I don't see how these comments are germane to our discussion of the divinity of Jesus.
Original Jewish crowd had a number of individuals who agreed with "mere man" assertion since they wanted to "righteously" kill Jesus for blasphemy. Common to individuals believing Jesus is a "mere man" is many years of intense study. Everyone who meet Jesus on earth would agree Jesus is a man. Many believed words & works of Jesus so trusted Jesus as God.
Assertion "it remains true that Jesus NOT ONCE claimed to be God" reminds me of seed that fell on a footpath so the birds came and ate them (stealing away the Word of Truth, which has been implied/inferred in a number of replies). Please read reply to @Wolfgang below that has Greek language I AM "ἐγώ εἰμι" from LXX (Swete's Septuagint from 1909) and SBLGNT (Society of Biblical Languages Greek New Testament)
@Bill_Coley So you contend that Jesus was willing to call himself the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Son of Man who would one day return, but he decided to leave to others to infer that he was God? That makes no sense to me at all, and in my view, is not at all consistent with the NT witness.
In the original Jewish audiences were individuals who wanted to "righteously" kill Jesus for blasphemy (when they heard Jesus call himself the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Son of Man who would one day return). These studious individuals (Jewish Religious Leaders) clearly understood various Jewish statements by Jesus to be God in human flesh so wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy (instead of believing Jesus is God). Unbelieving Jewish Religious Leaders were needed for the crucifixion of Jesus (along with being a sad commentary about years of scripture study resulting in a heart lacking God's Love while being a Religious leader).
Puzzled by "contend" assertion that misses major point in many of my replies about who Jesus is. Appears keeping belief perspective is more important than understanding ancient Jewish cultural expressions in the Bible: e.g. personal belief prevents Jewish understanding of "I AM" (self identification by Jesus of being Lord יהוה God in human flesh while Lord יהוה God the Father rules in Holy Heaven).
If Jesus is not God, what kept a Holy Righteous God from killing Jesus for blasphemy ? In Acts 12:20-23 what happened to Herod Agrippa after he received worship from people ?
Assertion "Jesus was not guilty" => Jesus spoke Truth. Caiaphas (and Jewish religious council) responded to Jesus answering a question about being The Christ (The Messiah) by declaring blasphemy that was deserving of death:
Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matthew 26:57-68 (ESV)
Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered. And Peter was following him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and going inside he sat with the guards to see the end. Now the chief priests and the whole council were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death, but they found none, though many false witnesses came forward. At last two came forward and said, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to rebuild it in three days.’ ” And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. What is your judgment?” They answered, “He deserves death.” Then they spit in his face and struck him. And some slapped him, saying, “Prophesy to us, you Christ! Who is it that struck you?”
@Wolfgang Thank you for posting the above passage from Mt 26 ... there is nothing in the high priest's question nor in Jesus' answer that has any reference to a Jesus is God idea. Why are you not reading what the text actually says? Else, in case you are reading correctly, why are you not believing what you read?? Where did the high priest ask "Tell us if you are the living God" ??? The high priest knew that the promised Messiah of the OT was NOT himself God, but was to be the SON OF God ... as his words to Jesus clearly show. He demands of Jesus to tell him if he is the Messiah, the SON OF God. This Jesus confirms that he is the SON OF God by saying "You said it."
Assertion "there is nothing in the high priest's question nor in Jesus' answer that has any reference to a Jesus is God idea" affirms modern cultural communication does not understand ancient Jewish dialogue. Personally learning more about Jewish culture so can understand and hear/obey God's Word better. Years ago, truthful answer by Jesus about being The Messiah (Christ) followed by declaring to be Lord יהוה God in human flesh did not make sense to me (since did not understand ancient Jewish way of speaking with assumed cultural experience and scripture knowledge).
God's heavenly throne, where One Spirit Being (God) righteously rules, has two seats: The Will (Father) and The Word (Son). Father and Son are two distinct roles within One God's commUnity of Love. They eternally exist together with Ruach HaKodesh in One God's "SINGLE SPIRIT Being".
Jewish religious charge for Jesus to die is blasphemy (cursing God) so the Jewish religious leaders plainly understood Jesus truthfully stating He is God in human flesh using Jewish culturally correct terminology (with implied scripture references).
@Wolfgang Again you are putting words and ideas into the text which totally change what Scripture does state. The Jewish religious leaders never even once thought or understood that Jesus is God or that Jesus claimed to be God. There is no idea whatever of a "God in human flesh" in Jewish cultural terminology
If assertion "The Jewish religious leaders never even once thought or understood that Jesus is God or that Jesus claimed to be God." was valid, then Jewish trial of Jesus would have continued since Jewish High Priest would not have had a legal reason for putting Jesus to death. Original audience for Matthew 26:57-68 is Jewish Sanhedrin (religious council) members, which is the supreme court for Jewish matters that includes implementing and observing 613 commands (mitzvot) in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Personally would be surprised if any Sanhedrin member had not memorized every letter and word of Torah along with oral traditions (Torah knowledge would be needed for legal discussions about Jewish matters). Blasphemy declaration by High Priest was a Jewish legal judgement, which is evidence of these Jewish listeners being reminded about Daniel 7:13 and other passages followed by interpreting truth spoken by Jesus as cursing Gd (so Jesus deserved to die). Unbelieving Jewish Religious Leaders, who understood Jesus said about being God in human flesh, were needed for the crucifixion of Jesus (along with being a sad commentary about years of scripture study resulting in a heart lacking Gd's Love while being a Religious leader).
Searching LXX for "ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι" finds results in Isaiah 43:25, 45:19, 51:12 (none of them are followed by ὁ ὤν that is in Exodus 3:14)
Isaiah 45:19 (LES) I have not spoken in secret or in a dark place of the earth. I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek vanity!’ I am, I am the Lord who speaks righteousness and announces truth.”
Searching SBLGNT for "ἐγώ εἰμι" finds 47 verses with four in the synoptic Gospels spoken by Jesus about Jesus: e.g. Luke 24:39 (my heart jumps for Joy about God's Spirit being in resurrected human body of Jesus). Most results in John are Jesus being I AM (Lord God) while John 9:9 refers to the man healed by the pool of Siloam. Jesus spoke "ἐγώ εἰμι" as God's name in Matthew 22:32 when reminding Jewish audience what God said.
@Wolfgang See comment above concerning your apparent reading ability or insertion of own ideas and thereby changing the Biblical text.
@Wolfgang In NONE of those verses you cited from your text search do the words "ἐγώ εἰμι" mean anything different from their regular meaning of ἐγώ = "I" and εἰμι = "am" ...there is NOTHING in the text of what make those words to supposedly mean.
Isaiah 45:19 quality of "ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι" (I AM, I AM) is Κύριος (LORD without definite article), the one who speaks righteousness and announces truth. Observation is NONE assertion being a faith view perspective of scripture (so cannot understand what scripture plainly says).
Primary point of this thread is if Jesus is Not God, then Jesus cannot be savior for anyone (a sinner cannot be the sinless sacrifice for the sins of the world).
@Wolfgang Your assumption appears to be that if Jesus is not God, Jesus must be a sinner (and because of that he cannot be savior for anyone). This assumption is false because just as the first man (Adam) was a human being and not God and yet without sin, so was the second Adam (Jesus) a human being and not God yet without sin. Whereas Adam then committed sin and became a sinner, Jesus did not commit sin and thus could be the sinless sacrifice for sin ... cp. Rom 5:12ff which clearly states that sin came into the world by one MAN (Adam) via his disobedience to God, so did salvation from sin come by one MAN (Jesus) via his obedience to God.
What fertilized the human egg in Mary ? If sperm from Joseph, then Jesus is not God and inherited sin from Adam (so was born spiritually dead).
If John 1:1-18 is literallly true, the human egg in Mary was fertilized by God (Holy Spirit) so The Word (eternal God) became flesh (born spiritually alive), who is the second Adam. First Adam was created without sin, but chose to sin (so sperm spreads spiritual death to offspring). In contrast, the second Adam (Jesus) was conceived without sin and chose not to sin so was the sinless sacrifice for every human.
From my faith perspective, what makes Second Adam special is God's spirit (without sin nature) in a human body. Thankful for God's "SINGLE SPIRIT Being" planning for Second Adam (God's spirit being inside a man while also ruling in Holy Heaven) before creating First Adam.
If Jesus is not God, then many scripture verses lie about Jesus so leaves me wondering how much of the Bible has truthful value for those who believe Jesus is not God ?
@Wolfgang Your ideas about Jesus which contradict plain Scriptures should cause you to wonder about how much of those dogmas you hold to as your faith perspective are faulty and need correction in order to align with Biblical truth.
If believe Jesus is not God, then John 1:14-18, Romans 5:12ff, Colossians 3:12-17, "ἐγώ εἰμι", ... are example verses whose truth is hidden away from an unbeliever (know about Jesus while not knowing Jesus so personal connection/abiding in Jesus is not in an unbeliever). God desires every human to Love God, but does not force anyone to choose God. Every human has choice what to believe. Notable in the New Testament is two reactions to a real encounter of God's Love in Jesus: believe in Jesus as Lord יהוה God OR want to kill Jesus (thousands chose to believe while a number of Jewish religious leaders chose to kill, which was needed to fulfill crucifixion prophecy for sin sacrifice).
By the way, "dogma" assertion is faulty (lots of Bible study & prayer is valid with desire to learn more in One God's commUnity of Love). Jesus warned against dogma (human commandments) in Mark 7:6-8 (ESV) And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “ ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
Personally Thankful to be a child of God who is growing in God's Grace and Knowledge, which includes desire to imitate God and Be Holy because God is Holy. Thankful for many sweet hours of prayer, which has included @Wolfgang & @Bill_Coley Also Thankful for God answering a number of prayers and Holy Spirit fruit being real (way beyond what human words can express). Learning our spiritual adversary always want to disrupt every human's Love relationship in God, which includes vocies in human heads. King David was a man after God's own heart, but thoughts from our spiritual adversary resulted in David sinning against God: 1 Chronicles 21:1-17 (with sin consequence of 70,000 men dying in Israel).
God is Truth so lies do not come from God, but from our spiritual adversary, who kills, steals, and destroys.
@Wolfgang Indeed ... therefore you are encouraged to not go by your faith perspective and your ideas, but rather evaluate what you currently believe in light of Scripture to then align what you believe with what Scripture plainly says.
Missing indeed from human study method is Love relationship in God (includes believing prayer of Psalm 119:18) that is like John 5:38-40 (ESV) ... you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Individual Jewish religious leaders were so focused on human study of scripture (and repeating words ritually) that they lost their belief/love in Gd (hearts turned away). Study resulted in "righteous" indignation to kill Jesus (instead of choosing to believe in Gd and worship all of Gd that includes Praise for Gd's good work being done): e.g. John 5:18 (ESV) This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
My prayers with God often include Proverbs 3:5-8 (ESV) "Trust in the יהוה Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the יהוה Lord, and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones." Also pray to speak/write God's Truth in Love (Ephesians 4) using kind words (James 1:19-27). Thankful for daily awareness of God's Holy presence in me, which is an Amazing Grace. Thankful for knees still allowing me to bow down and worship God, which includes Jesus as Lord יהוה God. Thankful for Hillsong Worship (watching "There is More" while writing this).
Keep Smiling 😀
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you accuse others of "(falsely) asserting" something when they point out straight from the text what the Biblical text says, and you do so in order to" justify" to yourself your own assertion (which you admit it is by declaring it to be only what you believe, your faith perspective, rather than what the text says). Apparently, Scripture is thus not your basis ... rather certain "faith concepts" not found in Scripture you hold are. 😥
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@Wolfgang you accuse others of "(falsely) asserting" something when they point out straight from the text what the Biblical text says, and you do so in order to" justify" to yourself your own assertion (which you admit it is by declaring it to be only what you believe, your faith perspective, rather than what the text says). Apparently, Scripture is thus not your basis ... rather certain "faith concepts" not found in Scripture you hold are. 😥
Please elaborate about certain "faith concepts" that are not appearent in scripture from your belief perspective (my replies have included many examples with ancient Jewish cultural explanations since God inspired people with Jewish experience/knowledge to write scripture, which often assumes Jewish experience/knowledge). Belief that no one understood/believed "Jesus is God" is inconsistent with scripture. Synoptic gospels record trial of Jesus stopping after some Jewish Religious leaders heard Jesus speak followed by their declaring blasphemy judgement for death Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:61-71 (instead of believing truth spoken by Jesus and worshipping Jesus as Lord יהוה God)
Sadly @Wolfgang's reply (in this & other threads) shows spiritual heart alignment with our spiritual adversary, who uses general fear as a lying tactic (one method to disrupt Love relationship in One God, which is consistent with John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy). Remember God is Love, which casts out fear: e.g. 1 John 4:7-5:5 (especially 1 John 4:18)
Please provide example(s) for "(which you admit it is by declaring it to be only what you believe, your faith perspective, rather than what the text says)". My earlier reply asserted "If believe Jesus is not God, then John 1:14-18, Romans 5:12ff, Colossians 3:12-17, "ἐγώ εἰμι", ... are example verses whose truth is hidden away from an unbeliever (know about Jesus while not knowing Jesus so personal connection/abiding in Jesus is not in an unbeliever). God desires every human to Love God, but does not force anyone to choose God. Every human has choice what to believe."
Corollary to earlier belief choice is filter used to view/understand scripture text. For example, the belief "Jesus is a mere man, who is not God" is expressed by regular meaning view of "I am" for "ἐγώ εἰμι" (that cannot be God's Most Holy Name to avoid scripture contradicting faith belief)
@Wolfgang In NONE of those verses you cited from your text search do the words "ἐγώ εἰμι" mean anything different from their regular meaning of ἐγώ = "I" and εἰμι = "am" ...there is NOTHING in the text of what make those words to supposedly mean.
FYI: my faith in Jesus as Lord יהוה God has a number of years between my knowing about Jesus before choosing to believe. Intellectually acknowledged evidence for Jesus living, dying, and resurrection was truthfully valid (using same evidence methods as a murder trial) for years before I was willing to trust Jesus as my Lord יהוה God. My physical age is substantially more than my spiritually alive age, which includes twenty year loss of time to sin (from spiritual adversary temptation leading my thoughts away from God) after believing in Jesus as my Lord יהוה God.
Keep Smiling 😀
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KeepSmilingfor esis is inability to be an example for others while lacking in self: e.g. cannot show being a new creation in Christ (united with the Messiah) when personally am not living as a new creation in Christ (living by trust in One God so can truly experience God's commUnity of Love)
What does this response have to do with my claim that 2 Corinthians 5.16-21 does not speak of a "plural unified God"? Where IN THE TEXT do you find reference to a "plural unified God" in that passage? Please be specific.
Purpose of God's reconciliation is Love "through" Jesus to God (choosing God's salvation leads to a Holy Love relationship in God).
How does this response level any meaningful dispute with my view of the clear meaning of the word "through" in the phrase "through Jesus"?
In the Jewish crowd, the ones picking up stones for the purpose of killing Jesus believed Jesus was "a mere man" (who ought to die for blasphemy). Action of picking up stones to kill shows intensity of personal "righteous" indignation about Jesus claiming to be God in human flesh.
We've traveled this road before.
Just because some in the crowd believed Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus actually claimed to be God. In fact, we learn in a subsequent verse that Jesus specifically rejected their assertion, and clarified that he claimed to be "the SON of God." (John 10.36) He claimed intimacy with God, yes (John 10.38) but he did NOT claim to be God. Those in the crowd who believed Jesus had claimed to be God were wrong.
Faith perspective asserts text "doesn't mean" what the text says. My stilted literal translation can be expanded to include present tense action (continuous): "Son of The God I am being." while realizing phrase word order emphasizes "I am being" (verb ends phrase instead of verb being in the middle). Jesus is declaring to be physically from/of The God (consistent with "sperm" being God for fertilization of human egg inside Mary).
That your "faith perspective" asserts that the text doesn't mean what it says is a textbook example of eisegesis - reading into a text. In this case, you read into a text a meaning that's simply NOT supported by the text.
Remember John the Baptist (Immerser) came to prepare the way of Lord יהוה God (to fulfill prophecies in Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:23)
Responding to your posts has elements of a whack-a-mole game: As soon as I demonstrate the weakness or failure of one theory or text, you raise another one.
In this case, remember what John called Jesus: "The Lamb OF God" who takes away the sins of the world." (John 1.29) That's NOT a claim that Jesus is God, but rather that he is the one who will sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of humanity's sins.
Remember also what John the Baptist told his own disciples about Jesus, that Jesus was "sent by God" and that Jesus "speaks God's words" because "God gives him the spirit without limit." (John 3.34) That's clearly, obviously, inarguably NOT a declaration that Jesus is God.
Remember ALSO what John the Baptist asked Jesus through two disciples: "Are you the Messiah we’ve been expecting, or should we keep looking for someone else?" (Luke 7.20) That's also NOT a declaration that Jesus is God.
John the Baptist is CLEARLY NOT thinking Jesus is God. He's thinking Jesus is the Messiah.
Original audience for Mark 14.62 is Jewish Sanhedrin (religious council) members, which is the supreme court for Jewish matters that includes implementing and observing 613 commands (mitzvot) in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Personally would be surprised if any Sanhedrin member had not memorized every letter and word of Torah along with oral traditions (Torah knowledge would be needed for legal discussions about Jewish matters). Blasphemy declaration by High Priest was a Jewish legal judgement, which is evidence of these Jewish listeners being reminded about Exodus 3:14 and other passages followed by interpreting truth spoken by Jesus as cursing Gd (so Jesus deserved to die).
YET AGAIN: That the high priest alleged that Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus claimed to be God.
IN THE CONTEXT OF THE VERSE, the words "I am" are an answer to a question. Period. There is NO TEXTUAL EVIDENCE - NONE - that by those two words Jesus meant anything other than to say yes to a question he had been asked. Your claim to the contrary reflects your faith perspective, but is NOT supported by the text. You're once again reading your faith perspective into the text.
Remember scripture explains scripture, which was called Sola Scriptura by Reformers while Jews call it "stringing pearls." John 10:40-42 is consistent with Isaiah 40:3
There is nothing in Isaiah 40.3 that changes the fact that John 10.40-42 DOES NOT SAY Jesus is "Lord God." It's NOT there. You're once again reading your faith perspective into the text.
Greek has words for "through", but Jesus did not use any of them in Luke 8:39 command to the healed man. Legion of demons were cast out from one man by the words of Jesus (into a herd of 2,000+ pigs), yet Jesus commanded the healed man to "tell how much The God has done."
That he doesn't use the "through" in Luke 8.39 does not change the fact that in the two John verses I cited (John 5.19,31) Jesus says he can't do ANYTHING without God - which MUST mean Jesus believes the things he does, he does because God works through him.
Original Jewish crowd had a number of individuals who agreed with "mere man" assertion since they wanted to "righteously" kill Jesus for blasphemy. Common to individuals believing Jesus is a "mere man" is many years of intense study. Everyone who meet Jesus on earth would agree Jesus is a man. Many believed words & works of Jesus so trusted Jesus as God.
People are welcome to "(trust) Jesus as God." But their trust is NOT proof that Jesus was God."
In the original Jewish audiences were individuals who wanted to "righteously" kill Jesus for blasphemy (when they heard Jesus call himself the Messiah, the Son of God, and the Son of Man who would one day return). These studious individuals (Jewish Religious Leaders) clearly understood various Jewish statements by Jesus to be God in human flesh so wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy (instead of believing Jesus is God). Unbelieving Jewish Religious Leaders were needed for the crucifixion of Jesus (along with being a sad commentary about years of scripture study resulting in a heart lacking God's Love while being a Religious leader).
YET AGAIN: That certain "studious individuals" thought Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus claimed to be God.
Puzzled by "contend" assertion that misses major point in many of my replies about who Jesus is. Appears keeping belief perspective is more important than understanding ancient Jewish cultural expressions in the Bible: e.g. personal belief prevents Jewish understanding of "I AM" (self identification by Jesus of being Lord יהוה God in human flesh while Lord יהוה God the Father rules in Holy Heaven).
I reject the "I am" sayings as Jesus' self-identifications of deity because in their respective contexts, they clearly ARE NOT self-identifications of deity.
If Jesus is not God, what kept a Holy Righteous God from killing Jesus for blasphemy ? In Acts 12:20-23 what happened to Herod Agrippa after he received worship from people ?
What kept God from killing Jesus for blasphemy, among other things, was simply that Jesus did not commit blasphemy.
Again and again and again you read your faith perspective into texts that DO NOT IN ANY WAY say what your faith perspective claims they say. You're welcome to do so, but in my view, you should acknowledge that you're doing it.
And NOTHING you have posted changes the fact that Jesus NEVER, NOT ONCE claimed to be God.
At some point, those two realities should impact, even transform, your views.
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@Bill_Coley wrote in reply to KeepSmilingForJesus:
Again and again and again you read your faith perspective into texts that DO NOT IN ANY WAY say what your faith perspective claims they say. You're welcome to do so, but in my view, you should acknowledge that you're doing it.
Instead of acknowledging such, he will rather accuse you of having a spiritual heart in alignment with the devil, as he just did above with me:
Sadly @Wolfgang's reply (in this & other threads) shows spiritual heart alignment with our spiritual adversary, who uses general fear as a lying tactic (one method to disrupt Love relationship in One God,
The ah so sweet honey comb love relationship talker has not indicated any willingness to acknowledge anything or change anything of his faith perspective, that is, his beliefs ... despite Scripture texts ... he seems to not regard "It is written" as important as "I believe such and such".
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@Wolfgang posted:
Instead of acknowledging such, he will rather accuse you of having a spiritual heart in alignment with the devil, as he just did above with me:
I've received my share of such dismissive comments over the course of these Christology exchanges, but also in other threads as well. In my view, they're all a variation on the "If you can't beat the message, beat the messenger" axiom.
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@Bill_Coley wrote in reply to KeepSmilingForJesus:
Again and again and again you read your faith perspective into texts that DO NOT IN ANY WAY say what your faith perspective claims they say. You're welcome to do so, but in my view, you should acknowledge that you're doing it.
What kind of reply is desired for "DO NOT IN ANY WAY say" generality ? (that is consistent with CD focus on discussing ideas ?) Next assertion "You're welcome to do so, but in my view, you should acknowledge that you're doing it." seems like a request for me to blaspheme Truth that God is showing me in His inspired scripture (written by humans with Jewish knowledge, which includes direct quotation of God in a number of places, to audience with Jewish experience/encounters). Humanly Thankful for One God gently & lovingly teaching me, which has included my faith modification of scripture meaning (helped me grow in Godliness). Personally want to be aware of my own faith beliefs when approaching scripture so can honestly pray for the plural unified God to open my eyes so can behold the wonders of His Teaching. Also desire to imitate God along with becoming Holy as He is Holy (so can speak/write Truth in Love using Kind words).
@Bill_Coley And NOTHING you have posted changes the fact that Jesus NEVER, NOT ONCE claimed to be God.
@Wolfgang Instead of acknowledging such, he will rather accuse you of having a spiritual heart in alignment with the devil, as he just did above with me:
Human hypothesis is personal faith belief effectively limits scriptural range of word meanings so what scripture says cannot conflict with faith belief: e.g. "ἐγώ εἰμι" always meaning "I am" simple identification (avoids recognizing/believing God's Most Holy Name was spoken by Jesus to identify Jesus as Lord יהוה God). If recognize conflict, then choose to ignore/excuse conflict so can maintain faith belief. Our spiritual adversary is the father of lies, whose deceptive ways include generalities and fantasies. Jesus spoke as God: never a man spoke like this (John 7:46)
@Bill_Coley At some point, those two realities should impact, even transform, your views.
If the asserted "two realities" were really true, then would concur about view transformation.
Sadly @Wolfgang's reply (in this & other threads) shows spiritual heart alignment with our spiritual adversary, who uses general fear as a lying tactic (one method to disrupt Love relationship in One God,
@Wolfgang The ah so sweet honey comb love relationship talker has not indicated any willingness to acknowledge anything or change anything of his faith perspective, that is, his beliefs ... despite Scripture texts ... he seems to not regard "It is written" as important as "I believe such and such".
Thus far no participant in this thread has publicly stated any change in faith views. Thankful for discussion, which has provided incentive for me to pray to the One True God followed by study and investigation. After my choice to believe and publicly declare Jesus is Lord (for six years), my subsequent twenty years of alignment with our spiritual adversary allowed many scripture words to have their meaning stolen away and destroyed (John 10:10) so God's Word became effectively lifeless for me. Story of forgiveness in Luke 7:26-50 now has valuable meaning for me since having my many sins forgiven by God (& myself) resulted in me Loving God intensely more. Thankful to now be living on every word that proceeds from God along with being aware of daily spiritual attack and Holy presence of God (reason to sing a new song to Praise God often). Thankful for Isaiah 6:3 so now see all nature Praising God (so my childlike faith joyfully joins awesome Praise & Thanks to the plural unified God).
Human hypothesis is inability to be an example for others while lacking in self: e.g. cannot show being a new creation in Christ (united with the Messiah) when personally am not living as a new creation in Christ (living by trust in One God so can truly experience God's commUnity of Love)
@Bill_Coley What does this response have to do with my claim that 2 Corinthians 5.16-21 does not speak of a "plural unified God"? Where IN THE TEXT do you find reference to a "plural unified God" in that passage? Please be specific.
Hypothesis is humanly understanding 2 Corinthians 5:11-21 is filtered by personal faith belief about The Messiah:
- If believe The Messiah is merely a man annointed by God, then clearly "see" separation between God and The Messiah (Jesus)
- If believe The Messiah is Lord יהוה God, then "plural unified God" appears in several words: e.g. Lord, God, The Messiah, ...
Personal faith belief enables/disables range of meaning/interconnection between scripture words, sentences, passages, ...
Paul penned Christ (The Messiah) was both human and God in Romans 9:1-5 (NLT) With Christ as my witness, I speak with utter truthfulness. My conscience and the Holy Spirit confirm it. My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them. They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen
"Opentext.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis" shows sentence connection between Christ and "he is God"
Purpose of God's reconciliation is Love "through" Jesus to God (choosing God's salvation leads to a Holy Love relationship in God).
@Bill_Coley How does this response level any meaningful dispute with my view of the clear meaning of the word "through" in the phrase "through Jesus"?
Please elaborate on how God's Love purpose reply does not align with your view about clear meaning of "through" in the phrase "through Jesus"
Prayerfully reading Romans (as a letter with chapter and verse numbers hidden) leaves me impressed that believers become right with God through faith in Jesus as Lord יהוה God plus God promised a remnant of Israel (Jews) will be saved. Loving Lord יהוה God with everything you are enables God's Love to flow through you to Love one another as God Loves (True for believers in Jesus as Lord יהוה God and Jews).
In the Jewish crowd, the ones picking up stones for the purpose of killing Jesus believed Jesus was "a mere man" (who ought to die for blasphemy). Action of picking up stones to kill shows intensity of personal "righteous" indignation about Jesus claiming to be God in human flesh.
@Bill_Coley We've traveled this road before.
@Bill_Coley Just because some in the crowd believed Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus actually claimed to be God. In fact, we learn in a subsequent verse that Jesus specifically rejected their assertion, and clarified that he claimed to be "the SON of God." (John 10.36) He claimed intimacy with God, yes (John 10.38) but he did NOT claim to be God. Those in the crowd who believed Jesus had claimed to be God were wrong.
John 10:39 shows those who picked stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy (remembering Isaiah 43:10-13 includes "I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other savior ... From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand." with John 10:27-30) still wanted to arrest Jesus (so their unbelief was unchanged after Jesus spoke). Jewish individuals picking up stones truly understood John 10:30 "The Father and I are One God" (connecting Isaiah 43:10-13 with Jesus) while refusing to believe Truth spoken by Jesus. John 10:34-38 spoken reply by Jesus includes Jesus knowing His human father is God (stilted literal translation of John 10:36 "Υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰμι." is "Son of The God I am being.") along with miraculous works done by Jesus testifying about Jesus being God. If believe Jesus is not God, can any of the gospel miracles be believed ?
Assertion "Just because some in the crowd believed Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus actually claimed to be God." is a bit misleading along with using a confusion tactic as an excuse to maintain personal faith belief (since do not want to recognize Jewish Religious leaders in the crowd clearly understood what Jesus had said while refusing to believe in Jesus as Lord יהוה God). Many hours of intense scripture study resulted in their hearts being turned away from One True God (while thinking they had eternal life in the scriptures that testified of truth about Jesus). Corollary for "DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN" assertion is "Did God really say ..." question in Genesis 3:1 (same doubtful purpose)
Faith perspective asserts text "doesn't mean" what the text says. My stilted literal translation can be expanded to include present tense action (continuous): "Son of The God I am being." while realizing phrase word order emphasizes "I am being" (verb ends phrase instead of verb being in the middle). Jesus is declaring to be physically from/of The God (consistent with "sperm" being God for fertilization of human egg inside Mary).
@Bill_Coley That your "faith perspective" asserts that the text doesn't mean what it says is a textbook example of eisegesis - reading into a text. In this case, you read into a text a meaning that's simply NOT supported by the text.
Please specify what is being "read" into the text (textbook examples include what is specifically not supported by the text). An eisegetical example is believing that Jesus is physically the son of Joseph so scripture text "Son of The God I am being." (John 10:36) cannot be literally true.
Remember John the Baptist (Immerser) came to prepare the way of Lord יהוה God (to fulfill prophecies in Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:23)
@Bill_Coley Responding to your posts has elements of a whack-a-mole game: As soon as I demonstrate the weakness or failure of one theory or text, you raise another one.
Noticed Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:23 were not mentioned in following reply:
@Bill_Coley In this case, remember what John called Jesus: "The Lamb OF God" who takes away the sins of the world." (John 1.29) That's NOT a claim that Jesus is God, but rather that he is the one who will sacrifice to God for the forgiveness of humanity's sins.
@Bill_Coley Remember also what John the Baptist told his own disciples about Jesus, that Jesus was "sent by God" and that Jesus "speaks God's words" because "God gives him the spirit without limit." (John 3.34) That's clearly, obviously, inarguably NOT a declaration that Jesus is God.
John 3:27-36 includes John the Baptist knowing Jesus comes from heaven (above) and is greater than anyone else, which infers Jesus is God.
@Bill_Coley Remember ALSO what John the Baptist asked Jesus through two disciples: "Are you the Messiah we’ve been expecting, or should we keep looking for someone else?" (Luke 7.20) That's also NOT a declaration that Jesus is God.
@Bill_Coley John the Baptist is CLEARLY NOT thinking Jesus is God. He's thinking Jesus is the Messiah.
Please provide Old Testament scripture for the Messiah merely being a man annointed by God. Psalm 22:6 is a Messianic prophecy about Jesus being born spiritually alive (all of Psalm 22 was remembered by Jewish audience where they heard Jesus say first line while being crucified).
God's covenant promise to King David in 2 Samuel 7 includes: "Your throne will be established forever." so Jews were looking for The Messiah who would dispose of the Romans and become their ruler forever (throne of God is forever). Jesus public ministry showed Love and compassion. Hence John the Baptist effectively asked: "Are you the Messiah (conquering King of the Jews who reigns forever) we've been expecting ..." that did not anticipate ~2,000 years between Zechariah 9:9 and 9:10.
Context of John 1:29-34 includes John the Baptist knowing "A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me." that infers Jesus is God.
Original audience for Mark 14.62 is Jewish Sanhedrin (religious council) members, which is the supreme court for Jewish matters that includes implementing and observing 613 commands (mitzvot) in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Personally would be surprised if any Sanhedrin member had not memorized every letter and word of Torah along with oral traditions (Torah knowledge would be needed for legal discussions about Jewish matters). Blasphemy declaration by High Priest was a Jewish legal judgement, which is evidence of these Jewish listeners being reminded about Exodus 3:14 and other passages followed by interpreting truth spoken by Jesus as cursing Gd (so Jesus deserved to die).
@Bill_Coley YET AGAIN: That the high priest alleged that Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus claimed to be God.
When God inspired scripture, was jumbled meaning intended ? Puzzled by purpose of "DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN" assertion.
@Bill_Coley IN THE CONTEXT OF THE VERSE, the words "I am" are an answer to a question. Period. There is NO TEXTUAL EVIDENCE - NONE - that by those two words Jesus meant anything other than to say yes to a question he had been asked. Your claim to the contrary reflects your faith perspective, but is NOT supported by the text. You're once again reading your faith perspective into the text.
If the Messiah is merely a man, then how does yes answer provide Jewish legal basis for blasphemy against God judgement ? What did the Jewish High Priest understand Jesus to say that provided legal reason for death according to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy ?
Apologies for belated replies plus will be busy serving the plural unified God in a commUnity of Love for the rest of this week.
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus postSmiling
What kind of reply is desired for "DO NOT IN ANY WAY say" generality ? (that is consistent with CD focus on discussing ideas ?)
My comment was a summary of what I think is a pattern in your posts (i.e. your "ideas"): Again and again your personal faith perspective changes and distorts the meaning of Bible texts.
Next assertion "You're welcome to do so, but in my view, you should acknowledge that you're doing it." seems like a request for me to blaspheme Truth that God is showing me in His inspired scripture (written by humans with Jewish knowledge, which includes direct quotation of God in a number of places, to audience with Jewish experience/encounters).
No. My comment was an encouragement to you to acknowledge the consequential role your faith perspective plays in your interpretation of Bible texts. And a few paragraphs later, you sort of did....
Human hypothesis is personal faith belief effectively limits scriptural range of word meanings so what scripture says cannot conflict with faith belief... If recognize conflict, then choose to ignore/excuse conflict so can maintain faith belief.
And...
Humanly Thankful for One God gently & lovingly teaching me, which has included my faith modification of scripture meaning
In short, that's the impact of your faith perspective that I see in your interpretation of Bible texts. Your faith perspective is deciding the meaning of texts, even though the texts do not say what your faith perspective claims they say. In fact, so you claim, your faith perspective is modifying the meaning of Bible texts.
e.g. "ἐγώ εἰμι" always meaning "I am" simple identification (avoids recognizing/believing God's Most Holy Name was spoken by Jesus to identify Jesus as Lord יהוה God).
It's simply NOT TRUE that Jesus spoke God's name to identify himself as God. According to your faith perspective it's true! But NOT according to the biblical text. You're reading that meaning into the text, and because of that, it's really hard for us to have an exegetical dialogue. You're willing to read things into texts that aren't there, AND you're not willing to acknowledge that you're doing so. So what's left to discuss?
If you see a tiger in that tree even though there's no tiger in that tree, there's not much reason for you and I discuss whether there's a tiger in that tree. The same is true with Scripture. If you claim Jesus says "I'm God" in a text even though Jesus doesn't say "I'm God" in that text, there's not much reason for us to discuss whether Jesus says "I'm God" in that text.
Our spiritual adversary is the father of lies, whose deceptive ways include generalities and fantasies. Jesus spoke as God: never a man spoke like this (John 7:46)
The verse DOES NOT say Jesus "spoke as God;" that's your faith perspective, not the text. The verse quotes temple guards as saying they have never heard anyone speak like Jesus spoke. There are several possible meanings to their claim, among THE VERY LEAST LIKELY OF WHICH, given the subsequent exchange between Nicodemus and his fellow Pharisees (John 7.47-52) being that they thought Jesus was God.
Hypothesis is humanly understanding 2 Corinthians 5:11-21 is filtered by personal faith belief about The Messiah:
If believe The Messiah is merely a man annointed by God, then clearly "see" separation between God and The Messiah (Jesus)
If believe The Messiah is Lord יהוה God, then "plural unified God" appears in several words: e.g. Lord, God, The Messiah, ...
Personal faith belief enables/disables range of meaning/interconnection between scripture words, sentences, passages, ...
In other words, it is your faith perspective, NOT the text itself, which has decided 2 Corinthians 5.11-21 refers to a "plural unified God." As I said earlier, if you see a tiger in a tree even though there's no tiger in the tree, there's not much reason for us to discuss whether there's a tiger in the tree.
Paul penned Christ (The Messiah) was both human and God in Romans 9:1-5 (NLT)
On several occasions over the years I have acknowledged the existence of verses that, when considered in isolation, CAN be interpreted as supportive of a Trinitarian view; this is one of those verses. HOWEVER, the verse itself has issues, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, there are dispositive contextual issues that clearly contradict this verse's seeming meaning.
- The verse's issue is that its translation is somewhat at issue. For example, a note in the NLT says an alternative rendering of the Greek is "May God, the one who rules over everything, be praised forever. Amen," obviously, a very different rendering of God's identity that offers no connection to Jesus.
- The contextual issues all point to an irreconcilable conflict between this verse's Christology and virtually the entirety of the rest of Paul's letter to the Romans (and other letters, too) Some examples follow...
- Romans 1.3-4 - Jesus was "shown to be the Son of God when he was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit."
- Romans 1.5 - "Through Christ, God has given us..."
- Romans 1.8 - "I thank my God through Jesus Christ...."
- Romans 3.23-25 - We are made right "through Christ Jesus," for "God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin."
- Romans 5.11 - We have a new relationship with God because Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.
- Romans 5.17 - God's grace gives us victory through "the one man, Jesus Christ"
- Romans 8.11 - The spirit of God raised Jesus
- Romans 8.34 - Jesus was raised to life and sits at God's right hand
- Romans 10.9 - Those who believe Jesus is Lord and that "God raised him from the dead" will be saved.
ALL of those verses (and MANY, MANY, MANY others) show a clear, undeniable distinction between God and Jesus, that Jesus IS NOT God. Ultimately, whether Paul believes Jesus is God is a binary choice for us: Either Paul believes Jesus is God, or Paul doesn't believe Jesus is God. Either the one verse you cite accurately reports Paul's view or the many, many, many verses I cite do. I choose the many, not the one.
Please elaborate on how God's Love purpose reply does not align with your view about clear meaning of "through" in the phrase "through Jesus"
My point was simply that you have yet to discredit the core assertion I make about the meaning of the word "through" when NT writers say God worked "through" Jesus. That core assertion is that if God worked "through" Jesus, Jesus cannot be God.
Prayerfully reading Romans (as a letter with chapter and verse numbers hidden) leaves me impressed that believers become right with God through faith in Jesus as Lord יהוה God plus God promised a remnant of Israel (Jews) will be saved. Loving Lord יהוה God with everything you are enables God's Love to flow through you to Love one another as God Loves (True for believers in Jesus as Lord יהוה God and Jews).
In all but, perhaps, the single verse to which you have pointed in the letter to the Romans, Paul NEVER SAYS Jesus is "Lord God," and in fact makes a clear and inarguable distinction between Jesus and God. Paul explicitly says God made us right through "the one man, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5.17) Your contentions to the contrary reflect your faith perspective, NOT the biblical text.
John 10:39 shows those who picked stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy (remembering Isaiah 43:10-13 includes "I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other savior ... From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand." with John 10:27-30) still wanted to arrest Jesus (so their unbelief was unchanged after Jesus spoke). Jewish individuals picking up stones truly understood John 10:30 "The Father and I are One God" (connecting Isaiah 43:10-13 with Jesus) while refusing to believe Truth spoken by Jesus. John 10:34-38 spoken reply by Jesus includes Jesus knowing His human father is God (stilted literal translation of John 10:36 "Υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰμι." is "Son of The God I am being.") along with miraculous works done by Jesus testifying about Jesus being God. If believe Jesus is not God, can any of the gospel miracles be believed ?
As I noted in my previous response, in John 10.36 Jesus specifically rejects their accusation that he had claimed to be "God" when he tells them that he claims to be "the Son of God." The question to address is simply this: Do you believe Jesus about himself when he claims to be "the Son of God," or do you believe the crowd about Jesus when they claim he thinks he's "God"? I believe Jesus.
As for John 10.30, Jesus DOES NOT SAY that he and the Father are "One God." He says that he and the Father are "one." Your claim that he says he and his Father are "One God" reflects your faith perspective, not the biblical text.
As for Isaiah 43.10-13, the "I am" statements there are simply assertions of identity. God says "I am the LORD." When I say "I am Bill Coley," I make the same kind of statement. When Jesus says "I am the Son of God," so does he.
Assertion "Just because some in the crowd believed Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus actually claimed to be God." is a bit misleading along with using a confusion tactic as an excuse to maintain personal faith belief (since do not want to recognize Jewish Religious leaders in the crowd clearly understood what Jesus had said while refusing to believe in Jesus as Lord יהוה God). Many hours of intense scripture study resulted in their hearts being turned away from One True God (while thinking they had eternal life in the scriptures that testified of truth about Jesus).
My claim that the fact that some the crowd believed something to be true didn't necessarily mean that that something was in fact true is self-evidently correct. There are people who believe the earth is flat. The fact that they believe that doesn't necessarily mean the earth is flat.
My goodness, Wolfgang and I believe Jesus was not God. I bet you would say the fact that we believe that doesn't necessarily make it true that Jesus was not God.
There's nothing misleading or confusing about my claim.
As to my faith belief, the question is which came first, the faith belief or the biblical text? In my case, it's the biblical text. I root my faith belief about Jesus in the text. In your most recent post, however, you acknowledge that your faith perspective produces "modification(s) of scripture meaning." If either of us seeks to "maintain (our) personal faith belief" in spite the biblical text, given the number of times you have claimed Bible texts say what they obviously do not say, I think it's fair to say it's you.
Corollary for "DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN" assertion is "Did God really say ..." question in Genesis 3:1 (same doubtful purpose)
There is NO common ground between the serpent's question to Eve in Genesis 3.1 and my claim about the crowd's assumption about Jesus. There may well be yet another of the sort of dismissive put-downs you have thrown at me on several occasions over the months (likening my statement to a statement of the serpent who's trying to lead the couple away from God) but no common ground.
Please specify what is being "read" into the text (textbook examples include what is specifically not supported by the text). An eisegetical example is believing that Jesus is physically the son of Joseph so scripture text "Son of The God I am being." (John 10:36) cannot be literally true.
In John 10.36, Jesus says he claims to be the Son of God. Through what you have called a "stilted translation" of the verse, you read into his declaration that he claims to be God. That's eisegesis because it reads your faith perspective into a text that does not say what you say it says.
Noticed Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:23 were not mentioned in following reply:
I think the Isaiah 40.3 connection is interesting. Notice how Luke's quotation of the verse concludes: "And then all people will see the salvation sent from God." John the Baptist is the one who prepares the way for the Lord Jesus, who will be "the salvation sent from God." Yet another clear distinction between God - who will send - and Jesus - the one God will send.
A close reading of Malachi 3.1-4 reveals two lords - one who is God ("the LORD") and the other, whose way the messenger prepares ("the Lord"). It is the "Lord" NOT the "LORD" who will follow the messenger, who will purify and refine, who will make sacrifices acceptable to the LORD again. The prophet quotes God as saying of the one who is coming: "Then the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger of the covenant, whom you look for so eagerly, is surely coming." God is clearly NOT talking about Godself.
John 3:27-36 includes John the Baptist knowing Jesus comes from heaven (above) and is greater than anyone else, which infers Jesus is God.
YOU infer that John means Jesus is God. In my view, John offers no such implication.
Your response here does not mention John the Baptist's word to his followers. He tells them explicitly that Jesus was "sent by God." (John 3.34) How can that description of Jesus possibly mean John the Baptist thought Jesus was God?
Please provide Old Testament scripture for the Messiah merely being a man annointed by God. Psalm 22:6 is a Messianic prophecy about Jesus being born spiritually alive (all of Psalm 22 was remembered by Jewish audience where they heard Jesus say first line while being crucified).
Though I know of no OT reference to the Messiah, I have to point out that anyone God anoints is not "merely" a human being. Conduct a Logos search on the terms "LORD's" and "anointed" for more.
God's covenant promise to King David in 2 Samuel 7 includes: "Your throne will be established forever." so Jews were looking for The Messiah who would dispose of the Romans and become their ruler forever (throne of God is forever). Jesus public ministry showed Love and compassion. Hence John the Baptist effectively asked: "Are you the Messiah (conquering King of the Jews who reigns forever) we've been expecting ..." that did not anticipate ~2,000 years between Zechariah 9:9 and 9:10.
In context, in 2 Samuel 7 God is clearly talking about Solomon, David's son who will build the temple, and NOT about Jesus would be born 900 years later. Note:
"12 For when you die and are buried with your ancestors, I will raise up one of your descendants, your own offspring, and I will make his kingdom strong. 13 He is the one who will build a house—a temple—for my name. And I will secure his royal throne forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. If he sins, I will correct and discipline him with the rod, like any father would do. 15 But my favor will not be taken from him as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from your sight. 16 Your house and your kingdom will continue before me for all time, and your throne will be secure forever.’ ”
God might have to discipline and correct the one who is to be born, the one whose throne God will secure. Even IF God's talking about Jesus there - and I think it's clear that not the case - God's telling us that Jesus won't be God because as God, there would be no possibility that Jesus would have to be corrected or disciplined.
When God inspired scripture, was jumbled meaning intended ? Puzzled by purpose of "DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN" assertion.
Again, this is uncomplicated and inescapable truth: The fact that a group of people believe something, in and of itself does not make that something true. It MIGHT be true, what they say, but it isn't necessarily true. That the Pharisees believed Jesus was claiming to be God does not in and of itself mean Jesus was claiming to be God. The Pharisees might have been wrong (talk to Jesus, who seemed to think the Pharisees were wrong about a lot of things!)
If the Messiah is merely a man, then how does yes answer provide Jewish legal basis for blasphemy against God judgement ? What did the Jewish High Priest understand Jesus to say that provided legal reason for death according to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy ?
Jesus HIMSELF told the Pharisees that he was not claiming to be God. He told them he was claiming to be the Son of God. The issue is will we believe the Pharisees or Jesus. I believe Jesus.
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@Bill_Coley wrote
As to my faith belief, the question is which came first, the faith belief or the biblical text? In my case, it's the biblical text. I root my faith belief about Jesus in the text. In your most recent post, however, you acknowledge that your faith perspective produces "modification(s) of scripture meaning." If either of us seeks to "maintain (our) personal faith belief" in spite the biblical text, given the number of times you have claimed Bible texts say what they obviously do not say, I think it's fair to say it's you.
This touches the major matter for any exchange with KeepSmilingforJesus or anyone else .... Does the person's "faith perspective" (in other words, that which they believe) determine what the Biblical text says, or does what the Biblical text actually says determine a person's faith perspective?
Example: Someone believes "Son of God" = "God the Son" and thus they read and claim any Bible passage about Jesus as the Son of God actually talks of Jesus as God the Son. Others read the Biblical text "the Son of God" and understand and believe that it talks of Jesus as the Son of God.
Is faith the basis of the Word? Or is the Word the basis of one's faith?
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Isaiah 43:11 begins with three Hebrew words => stilted literal translation of "I, I, I AM" => Greek LXX as "ἐγὼ ὁ θεός" "I the God". Isaiah 43:11 (NLT) "I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other Savior." starts with "I, yes I" as an English way to express replication of first person singular pronouns. Isaiah 43:25 also begins with "I, yes I" in NLT that reflects Hebrew replication of first person singular pronouns (same as Isaiah 43:11), which was translated as "ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι" (LXX Swete) => "I AM, I AM" identification by Lord God as Lord God. Exodus 3:14 has phrase Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν that has a stilted literal translation of "I, I AM the Being" (verb εἰμι is present, active, indicative, first person singular while participle ὤν is present, active, participle of εἰμι, singular, nominative, masculine). Singular aspect of ὤν is translated as One in NLT, ESV and other Bibles, which does not convey well in English that the participle of εἰμι is a verbal noun: One Being. Present tense has continous action presently happening. LXX Swete has the phrase ὁ ὤν in five verses: Exodus 3:14 (One God), 3 Kingdoms 16:22 (Tibni), Jeremiah 1:6, 14:13, 39:37 (O Sovereign Lord). LXX translators rendered Adonai YHVH as ὁ ὤν when Jeremiah was speaking to the One Being (Lord God). LXX Swete has 172 verses containing phrase ἐγώ εἰμι that includes 13 verses in Genesis with various speakers: God, Abram, Abraham's servant, Jacob, and Joseph. LXX translators rendered first person singular pronoun in Hebrew as ἐγώ εἰμι in Genesis 17:1 for Lord God (similar pattern as Isaiah 43:25).
@Wolfgang This touches the major matter for any exchange with KeepSmilingforJesus or anyone else .... Does the person's "faith perspective" (in other words, that which they believe) determine what the Biblical text says, or does what the Biblical text actually says determine a person's faith perspective? ... Is faith the basis of the Word? Or is the Word the basis of one's faith?
Perplexing questions are incomplete. Everyone chooses from three thought sources: 1) their own, 2) One True God, 3) Spiritual Adversary. From their thoughts, each human chooses what to believe + do, which includes what to Love most. Our spiritual adversary viciously wants to disrupt love communion between every individual and One True God (by any means possible, which includes mixing lies with truth in a crafty manner).
@Bill_Coley ALL of those verses (and MANY, MANY, MANY others) show a clear, undeniable distinction between God and Jesus, that Jesus IS NOT God. Ultimately, whether Paul believes Jesus is God is a binary choice for us: Either Paul believes Jesus is God, or Paul doesn't believe Jesus is God. Either the one verse you cite accurately reports Paul's view or the many, many, many verses I cite do. I choose the many, not the one.
Circular reasoning for "ALL of those verses (and MANY, MANY, MANY others)" assertion is unconvincing (belief that Jesus is NOT God causes many verses to appear "supportive" of belief, yet none of the verses cited gives me any reason to doubt my belief that Jesus is eternally God, who humbly choose to leave Heaven's throne to dwell in a human body for the purpose of being the Holy sinless sacrifice for every human = LOVE). Confirmed human hypothesis: personal faith belief limits scriptural range of word meanings so "scripture" cannot conflict with faith belief.
Assertion " I choose the many, not the one." has truth implication. Can God's Truth be inconsistent so choice is needed between "MANY, MANY, MANY" and other verses ? Can One True God lie ? (Truth remains truth over time: the same yesterday, today, and foever)
e.g. "ἐγώ εἰμι" always meaning "I am" simple identification (avoids recognizing/believing God's Most Holy Name was spoken by Jesus to identify Jesus as Lord יהוה God).
@Bill_Coley It's simply NOT TRUE that Jesus spoke God's name to identify himself as God. According to your faith perspective it's true! But NOT according to the biblical text. You're reading that meaning into the text, and because of that, it's really hard for us to have an exegetical dialogue. You're willing to read things into texts that aren't there, AND you're not willing to acknowledge that you're doing so. So what's left to discuss?
Concur true exegetical dialogue cannot be done. Corollary to human hypothesis: "personal faith belief limits scriptural range of word meanings so scripture cannot conflict with faith belief" is the inability to read truth out of scripture text that conflicts with personal faith belief (a form of spiritual blindness, whose deceptiveness is challenging to recognize and acknowledge). Corollary short form: do not believe can be in the text so cannot "see" truth in Bible text: e.g. Jesus as Lord יהוה God (human "knowledge" about scripture verses does not prevent blindness when human failed to guard their heart to Love One God - Jewish religious leaders are examples in the Gospels for being blind while having "knowledge").
John 9:35-41 (NLT) When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” The man answered, “Who is he, sir? I want to believe in him.” “You have seen him,” Jesus said, “and he is speaking to you!” “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. Then Jesus told him, “I entered this world to render judgment—to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind.” Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, “Are you saying we’re blind?” “If you were blind, you wouldn’t be guilty,” Jesus replied. “But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.
2 Cointhians 4:3-4 (NLT) If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
If the Messiah is merely a man, then how does yes answer provide Jewish legal basis for blasphemy against God judgement ? What did the Jewish High Priest understand Jesus to say that provided legal reason for death according to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy ?
@Bill_Coley Jesus HIMSELF told the Pharisees that he was not claiming to be God. He told them he was claiming to be the Son of God. The issue is will we believe the Pharisees or Jesus. I believe Jesus.
Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy" is understanding Jesus stating I AM Gd in human flesh (using Jewish expressions), which was interpreted by those unwilling to believe the truth spoken by Jesus as reason for Jesus to be put to death (one way to kill is throwing stones). John 8:57-59 (NLT) The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!” At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.
Paul penned Christ (The Messiah) was both human and God in Romans 9:1-5 (NLT)
@Bill_Coley On several occasions over the years I have acknowledged the existence of verses that, when considered in isolation, CAN be interpreted as supportive of a Trinitarian view; this is one of those verses. ...
@Bill_Coley ALL of those verses (and MANY, MANY, MANY others) show a clear, undeniable distinction between God and Jesus, that Jesus IS NOT God. Ultimately, whether Paul believes Jesus is God is a binary choice for us: Either Paul believes Jesus is God, or Paul doesn't believe Jesus is God. Either the one verse you cite accurately reports Paul's view or the many, many, many verses I cite do. I choose the many, not the one.
One God's commUnity of Love has three distinct Voices: Abba, Yeshua, Ruach HaKodesh. One God includes Jesus while God is more than Jesus. To me, Paul believes (knows) Jesus is in One God's commUnity of Love after personal encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus in Acts 9. Degree of difference between Jesus and God shows in Christology examples of Paul's verses that deceptively concludes "Jesus IS NOT God".
Please elaborate on how God's Love purpose reply does not align with your view about clear meaning of "through" in the phrase "through Jesus"
@Bill_Coley My point was simply that you have yet to discredit the core assertion I make about the meaning of the word "through" when NT writers say God worked "through" Jesus. That core assertion is that if God worked "through" Jesus, Jesus cannot be God.
Our definitions of God are different. While Jesus is eternally God (The Word), One God is more than Jesus. Spirit in the human body of Jesus was completely God (not human) while One God has more spirit and two distinct voices that were not in the human body of Jesus.
Prayerfully reading Romans (as a letter with chapter and verse numbers hidden) leaves me impressed that believers become right with God through faith in Jesus as Lord יהוה God plus God promised a remnant of Israel (Jews) will be saved. Loving Lord יהוה God with everything you are enables God's Love to flow through you to Love one another as God Loves (True for believers in Jesus as Lord יהוה God and Jews).
@Bill_Coley In all but, perhaps, the single verse to which you have pointed in the letter to the Romans, Paul NEVER SAYS Jesus is "Lord God," and in fact makes a clear and inarguable distinction between Jesus and God. Paul explicitly says God made us right through "the one man, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5.17) Your contentions to the contrary reflect your faith perspective, NOT the biblical text.
Assertion Paul NEVER SAYS Jesus is "Lord God," reflects deceptive spiritual blindness. Saul (Paul) spent years training as a Jewish religious leader, which included memorizing every letter and word in Torah along with Jewish oral interpretation and traditions. Paul knew Hebrew reading of YHVH ( יהוה ) is enunciated as a-do-NAI (Lord). Only the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) enunciated YHVH ( יהוה ) correctly in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Paul also knew 6,358 YHVH ( יהוה ) in Hebrew were translated into Greek LXX as kurios (Lord) 6,040 and theos (God) 318 times. Romans 1:7 (NLT) May God our Father and the ( יהוה ) Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
John 10:39 shows those who picked stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy (remembering Isaiah 43:10-13 includes "I, yes I, am the Lord, and there is no other savior ... From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand." with John 10:27-30) still wanted to arrest Jesus (so their unbelief was unchanged after Jesus spoke). Jewish individuals picking up stones truly understood John 10:30 "The Father and I are One God" (connecting Isaiah 43:10-13 with Jesus) while refusing to believe Truth spoken by Jesus. John 10:34-38 spoken reply by Jesus includes Jesus knowing His human father is God (stilted literal translation of John 10:36 "Υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰμι." is "Son of The God I am being.") along with miraculous works done by Jesus testifying about Jesus being God. If believe Jesus is not God, can any of the gospel miracles be believed ?
@Bill_Coley As I noted in my previous response, in John 10.36 Jesus specifically rejects their accusation that he had claimed to be "God" when he tells them that he claims to be "the Son of God." The question to address is simply this: Do you believe Jesus about himself when he claims to be "the Son of God," or do you believe the crowd about Jesus when they claim he thinks he's "God"? I believe Jesus.
Jesus rejected being all of God (as One God is more than Jesus, which is reflected in John 10:36-38)
@Bill_Coley As for John 10.30, Jesus DOES NOT SAY that he and the Father are "One God." He says that he and the Father are "one." Your claim that he says he and his Father are "One God" reflects your faith perspective, not the biblical text.
My faith perspective reflects learning about Jewish ways of "stringing pearls" for scripture connections. One God's Love story has many fascinating scriptural connections. John 10:30 in the Hebrew New Testament has אֶחָד (One = ʾeḥād in The Shema - Deuteronomy 6:4)
@Bill_Coley As for Isaiah 43.10-13, the "I am" statements there are simply assertions of identity. God says "I am the LORD." When I say "I am Bill Coley," I make the same kind of statement. When Jesus says "I am the Son of God," so does he.
Isaiah 43:11 is in the first paragraph of this reply.
Please specify what is being "read" into the text (textbook examples include what is specifically not supported by the text). An eisegetical example is believing that Jesus is physically the son of Joseph so scripture text "Son of The God I am being." (John 10:36) cannot be literally true.
@Bill_Coley In John 10.36, Jesus says he claims to be the Son of God. Through what you have called a "stilted translation" of the verse, you read into his declaration that he claims to be God. That's eisegesis because it reads your faith perspective into a text that does not say what you say it says.
My past includes some years studying Koine Greek, which provides new meaning for phrase "That's Greek to me" (since can read parts of the Greek New Testament while other passages are Greek to me)
The Greek New Testament: SBL (Society of Biblical Languages) edition has six words to end John 10:36 ὅτι εἶπον· Υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰμι
One stilted literal text translation is: ὅτι (that) εἶπον· (I said) Υἱὸς (Son) τοῦ (of the) θεοῦ (of God) εἰμι (I am being)
Another stilted literal text translation is: ὅτι (because) εἶπον· (I said) Υἱὸς (Son) τοῦ (from the) θεοῦ (from God) εἰμι (I am being)
The verb εἰμι is present tense (continuous action in present time), active, indicative (true from speaker viewpoint), 1st person, singular
Personally believe Jesus words about Himself are consistent with God's angelic messages to Mary & Joseph so the physical father of Jesus is God.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, you mentioned above at the close of your long-winded post:
The Greek New Testament: SBL (Society of Biblical Languages) edition has six words to end John 10:36 ὅτι εἶπον· Υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ εἰμι
One stilted literal text translation is: ὅτι (that) εἶπον· (I said) Υἱὸς (Son) τοῦ (of the) θεοῦ (of God) εἰμι (I am being)
Another stilted literal text translation is: ὅτι (because) εἶπον· (I said) Υἱὸς (Son) τοῦ (from the) θεοῦ (from God) εἰμι (I am being)
The verb εἰμι is present tense (continuous action in present time), active, indicative (true from speaker viewpoint), 1st person, singular
Personally believe Jesus words about Himself are consistent with God's angelic messages to Mary & Joseph so the physical father of Jesus is God.
Do you notice that none of your Greek based explanations say what you claimed indirectly earlier, which was that Jesus himself did claim to be God?
John 10:36 clearly states that Jesus stated that he had said "I am THE SON OF God" ...which you in your faith belief perspective assertion read as if Jesus stated that he had said "I AM, God the Son" or however "stilted" you like to express it.
Your claims about the blindness of others here due to their supposed "faith perspective assertions" actually are shown to rather apply to yourself, as you seem unable to read correctly what the Bible text says even when you quote it from both the Greek and then English literal translation.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Circular reasoning for "ALL of those verses (and MANY, MANY, MANY others)" assertion is unconvincing (belief that Jesus is NOT God causes many verses to appear "supportive" of belief, yet none of the verses cited gives me any reason to doubt my belief that Jesus is eternally God, who humbly choose to leave Heaven's throne to dwell in a human body for the purpose of being the Holy sinless sacrifice for every human = LOVE). Confirmed human hypothesis: personal faith belief limits scriptural range of word meanings so "scripture" cannot conflict with faith belief.
What's "circular" about reasoning that concludes the consistent testimony of many verses is more compelling than the testimony of a single or small number of verses? I respect but disagree with your view about those many verses and the reasoning that leads you to it.
I've made this point to you multiple times during our many exchanges. Your response compels me to make it again: It's NOT my "personal faith" that limits the "range of words meanings" in these Scripture texts; it's the content of the texts themselves:
When Peter says this to his audience in Acts 2...
22 “People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarene by doing powerful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know. 23 But God knew what would happen, and his prearranged plan was carried out when Jesus was betrayed. With the help of lawless Gentiles, you nailed him to a cross and killed him. 24 But God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip."
...the words of the text, NOT my "personal faith," lead me to conclude Peter makes a clear distinction between God - who "knew what would happen" and had "a prearranged plan" - and Jesus - whom the Jews and "lawless Gentiles" "nailed to a cross;" between Jesus - who experienced "the horrors of death" - and God - whose raised Jesus back to life.
And in Acts 4, when Peter says...
10 Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead.
...the words of the text, NOT my "personal faith," lead me to conclude Peter makes a clear distinction between Jesus - the "man" they crucified - and God - the one who raised the man Jesus from the dead.
You're welcome to your own conclusions about those and all other texts, but please know that for ME, it is the content of the verses, NOT my "personal faith," that decides their meaning.
Assertion " I choose the many, not the one." has truth implication. Can God's Truth be inconsistent so choice is needed between "MANY, MANY, MANY" and other verses ? Can One True God lie ? (Truth remains truth over time: the same yesterday, today, and foever)
Doesn't every assertion, including each of yours, have "truth implications"? I don't understand the significance of your claim.
When Matthew's version of the temptation story (Matthew 4.1-11) reports this sequence of the devil's offers to Jesus: 1) turn stone into bread; 2) jump from a high place; 3) worship the devil, while Luke's version of the temptation story (Luke 4.1-13) reports this sequence: 1) turn stone into bread; 2) worship the devil; 3) jump from a high place, BOTH of those sequences cannot be correct; at least one of them has to be incorrect. Such an assertion is not a judgment against "God's truth," but rather an observation about the words of the texts. The same candor is required in our engagement with Bible texts, which when it comes to Jesus, in my view, make a clear distinction between God and Jesus. You're welcome to interpret those texts differently.
Concur true exegetical dialogue cannot be done. Corollary to human hypothesis: "personal faith belief limits scriptural range of word meanings so scripture cannot conflict with faith belief" is the inability to read truth out of scripture text that conflicts with personal faith belief (a form of spiritual blindness, whose deceptiveness is challenging to recognize and acknowledge). Corollary short form: do not believe can be in the text so cannot "see" truth in Bible text: e.g. Jesus as Lord יהוה God (human "knowledge" about scripture verses does not prevent blindness when human failed to guard their heart to Love One God - Jewish religious leaders are examples in the Gospels for being blind while having "knowledge")....
Yet again you respond with a dismissive put down, this one alleging my spiritual blindness. I pray for the day when your responses to people who disagree with you are better than that.
2 Cointhians 4:3-4 (NLT) If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Paul says Christ is the "exact likeness of God." A "likeness" is a resemblance, a presentation of something or someone else; it is NOT that something or someone. Paul explains in 2 Corinthians 4.6: "For God, who said, “Let there be light in the darkness,” has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ."
To say God's glory is seen in the face of Jesus is NOT to say Jesus IS God's glory. I see my dad in myself and my mom in my sister. We resemble our parents. But however good the resemblance, we're NOT our parents.
In John 11.40 Jesus tells Martha that she will see God's glory, NOT in Jesus' face, but in the resurrection of her brother Lazarus. That resurrection will present God's glory but it will not BE God's glory. Jesus makes the same point in John 12.45, but a few verses later makes clear that he is not God, but rather one who speaks and does what God instructs him to say and do. (John 12.49-50)
Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy" is understanding Jesus stating I AM Gd in human flesh (using Jewish expressions), which was interpreted by those unwilling to believe the truth spoken by Jesus as reason for Jesus to be put to death (one way to kill is throwing stones). John 8:57-59 (NLT) The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!” At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.
One accusation of blasphemy that arises in the Gospels comes from teachers of religious law who wonder whether Jesus thinks he's God (Matthew 9.3) but there are others, for instance when Jesus confirms that he is the Messiah (Matthew 26.65)
It's a point I've made on numerous occasions in our exchanges, but your reply compels me to make it again: That one or more persons believes Jesus thinks he's God does NOT mean Jesus thinks he's God. The witness of the Gospels, in my view, is clearly that Jesus does NOT think he's God.
One God's commUnity of Love has three distinct Voices: Abba, Yeshua, Ruach HaKodesh. One God includes Jesus while God is more than Jesus. To me, Paul believes (knows) Jesus is in One God's commUnity of Love after personal encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus in Acts 9. Degree of difference between Jesus and God shows in Christology examples of Paul's verses that deceptively concludes "Jesus IS NOT God".
Where in the text of Paul's Acts 9 encounter with Jesus do you find support for your view that "Paul believes (knows) Jesus is in One God's commUnity of Love"?
Our definitions of God are different. While Jesus is eternally God (The Word), One God is more than Jesus. Spirit in the human body of Jesus was completely God (not human) while One God has more spirit and two distinct voices that were not in the human body of Jesus.
I respect your view, but do not find biblical support for it, and don't believe you have identified such support.
Your claim that "One God has more spirit and two distinct voices" is to my recollection new in our exchange. On what Scriptural basis do you claim "One God" has "more spirit"?
Assertion Paul NEVER SAYS Jesus is "Lord God," reflects deceptive spiritual blindness. Saul (Paul) spent years training as a Jewish religious leader, which included memorizing every letter and word in Torah along with Jewish oral interpretation and traditions. Paul knew Hebrew reading of YHVH ( יהוה ) is enunciated as a-do-NAI (Lord). Only the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) enunciated YHVH ( יהוה ) correctly in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Paul also knew 6,358 YHVH ( יהוה ) in Hebrew were translated into Greek LXX as kurios (Lord) 6,040 and theos (God) 318 times. Romans 1:7 (NLT) May God our Father and the ( יהוה ) Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
My assertion that Paul never says Jesus is "Lord God" is not a product of spiritual blindness, but rather of reading Paul's writings in the New Testament, among which there is not a single instance of Paul's calling Jesus "Lord God." Were there such an instance, you would have cited it in place of your dismissive put down about my spiritual blindness.
Jesus rejected being all of God (as One God is more than Jesus, which is reflected in John 10:36-38)
What does Jesus mean when he says the Father is "in" him and he is "in" the Father? The same thing he means when he prays for his followers to be one as he and God are one (John 17.11,21,23). That Jesus is "in" his followers does NOT mean his followers are Jesus. That God is "in" Jesus (or you and me) does not me Jesus (or you or I) is God.
My faith perspective reflects learning about Jewish ways of "stringing pearls" for scripture connections. One God's Love story has many fascinating scriptural connections. John 10:30 in the Hebrew New Testament has אֶחָד (One = ʾeḥād in The Shema - Deuteronomy 6:4)
You're welcome to the "faith perspectives" of your choosing, but I note your statement here basically acknowledges the role of your faith perspective in how you interpret texts. Such is as good an explanation as any for your claim - not supported by any text - that Jesus believes himself and the Father to be "One God."
Isaiah 43:11 is in the first paragraph of this reply.
I find no significance in your "stilted" translation of the first verse of Isaiah 43. To my reading, the verse is simply God's statement of identity - nothing stilted about it.
One stilted literal text translation is: ὅτι (that) εἶπον· (I said) Υἱὸς (Son) τοῦ (of the) θεοῦ (of God) εἰμι (I am being)
Another stilted literal text translation is: ὅτι (because) εἶπον· (I said) Υἱὸς (Son) τοῦ (from the) θεοῦ (from God) εἰμι (I am being)
I don't rely on stilted translations to conclude Jesus does not claim to be God in John 10.36.
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