Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

In a High School math class, learned 2 + 2 = ? (whatever number you want if 0 = 1 since algebraic & math logic fails if zero and one symbols are allowed to be interchangeable). For example, 2 + 2 = 4 can have 1 added to both sides: 2 + 2 + 1 = 4 + 1 followed by substituting 0 for 1 (assuming their symbolic equality) so 2 + 2 + 0 = 4 + 1 hence 2 + 2 = 5 that is NOT necessarily true due to faulty assumption.

I have no idea why you included this paragraph in your reply. Please explain.

Where does the Bible declare 'God could not die' ?

God lives "from everlasting to everlasting," which leaves no room for God's death at any time in between the everlastings: 1 Chronicles 16.36; Nehemiah 9.5; Psalm 41.13; Psalm 106.48

Spiritual One being the Divinity indwelling human body of the lamb led to slaughter. Isaiah 53:11 righteous servant is consistent with Jeremiah 23:5-6 whose righteous branch of David is consistent with Revelation 22:16 (the source of David and the heir to his throne). Holy human body of Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, awesome love expression, while the eternal Word of God continued to exist: Ephesians 4:7-10 (ascended & descended). One God resurrected Holy body so death was swallowed up in victory.

How do we know death was swallowed up? Because God raised a man who died on a cross and was buried in a tomb. The victory of death that God won was victory over death that in fact occurred. Peter told his Jerusalem audience in Acts 2.23-24 that though they had killed Jesus (rendered him dead), "God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip." That death did not keep Jesus means it must for awhile have had him.

What words show belief of John that 'God could not die' ? Remember John was the first disciple to believe physical body resurrection of Jesus (John 20:8 "believed" after seeing linen cloth wrappings inside tomb folded up, but physical body of Jesus Christ was no longer inside that tomb).

I don't claim John pronounced a belief that God could not die. I claim that he, like the vast, vast majority of people who have ever believed in our God, did not believe God could die because... that's who God is: immortal and everlasting.

Matthew 7:3-5 includes insight about a hypocrite seeing the log in their own eye as a speck in the eye of another person....

Isaiah 53:9 (NLT) "He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave."

I have no idea why you included these lines in your reply. Please explain.

Repeating question: Did Jesus ever not tell the Truth ?

Well, he said the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds (Mark 4.31), when it isn't the smallest. Other than that! 😛

What's the point of your question? Yes, Jesus is always truthful.

• When he asked the man why he had called him "Good Teacher" when there is only "one who is good," (Matthew 19.17) Jesus told the truth.
• When in his John 17 prayer, he called his Father "the one true God" (John 17.3) and made no mention of his own deity, Jesus told the truth.
• And when he told Mary after the resurrection that he was about to ascend to the one who was both his disciples' Father and his own Father, to the one who was both his disciples' God and his own God (John 20.17), Jesus told the truth.

[Deleted User]

@Bill_Coley Well, he said the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds (Mark 4.31), when it isn't the smallest. Other than that! 😛

Thank you, Bill, for pointing out this statement of Jesus ... 😉

What's the point of your question? Yes, Jesus is always truthful.

Exactly ...

* When he asked the man why he had called him "Good Teacher" when there is only "one who is good," () Jesus told the truth.

* When in his John 17 prayer, he called his Father "the one true God" () and made no mention of his own deity, Jesus told the truth.

* And when he told Mary after the resurrection that he was about to ascend to the one who was both his disciples' Father and his own Father, to the one who was both his disciples' God and his own God (), Jesus told the truth.

I would say, Jesus knew what he was talking about ... and definitely told the truth.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Luke 3:23-38 lists the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, which includes the ultimate root (source) of David being Adam. How can the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16 (AV 1900) "I am the root and the offspring of David" be truthful without Jesus being Spiritually part of the One God who breathed life into dust to create Adam ?

@Wolfgang How can that be? Plain and simple answer: By YOU not turning it into something "spiritual" which it is not.

Instead,forget your false "spiritual" interpretation and READ the text from Isa 11:1 where you will find the answer.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Isaiah 11:1 (AV 1900) "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots:" is truthfully consistent with Jesus being the offspring (branch - netzer) of David, but leaves unanswered about truthfulness of Jesus saying "I am the root ... of David"

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, in Luke 3:23-38 records Jesus being born once so the only truthful "root of David" option is Jesus being part of One God when God breathed life into dust to create Adam, which is consistent with Jesus having God's Glory (John 17:5) and experiencing God's Love (John 17:24) before the world was created.

@Wolfgang Could you make thingst more theologically fancy ? Why not understand what is actually written in a plain simple manner?

My apologies for not understanding fancy question, which simply does not explain truthfulness about Jesus saying "I am the root ... of David".

@Wolfgang Truth is always simple ....

Knowing the ways of the only True God are not the ways of humans provides reason to strongly disagree with "Truth is always simple ..."

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Repeating question: Did Jesus ever not tell the Truth ?

@Bill_Coley Well, he said the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds (Mark 4.31), when it isn't the smallest. Other than that! 😛

@Wolfgang Thank you, Bill, for pointing out this statement of Jesus ... 😉

Mark 4:30-32 (NLT) Jesus said, “How can I describe the Kingdom of God? What story should I use to illustrate it? It is like a mustard seed planted in the ground. It is the smallest of all seeds, but it becomes the largest of all garden plants; it grows long branches, and birds can make nests in its shade.”

Matthew 13:31-32 (AV 1900) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Audience hearing Jesus speak ~2,000 years ago included religious "lawyers & judges" (scribes and Pharisees had spent many years intensely studying Scriptures so they literally knew every letter of God's law), some were uncomfortable with The Truth taught by Jesus (they pridefully enjoyed their self promoted righteous position in society: best synagogue seats, greetings, political authority, ...). If human gardeners/farmers planted/sowed a smaller seed for food/seasoning, these religious "lawyers & judges" would have labeled Jesus a deceiver, a false teacher.

Modern microscopes have enabled seeds to be discovered (e.g. orchids in Asia) that are smaller than a speck of dust to unaided human vision.

@Bill_Coley What's the point of your question? Yes, Jesus is always truthful.

@Wolfgang Exactly ... I would say, Jesus knew what he was talking about ... and definitely told the truth.

@Bill_Coley @Bill_Coley When he asked the man why he had called him "Good Teacher" when there is only "one who is good," (Matthew 19.17) Jesus told the truth.

Truth is consistent. We agree Jesus is always Truthful (while disagreeing about believability of Truthful words spoken by Jesus Christ, the Messiah).

Someone came to Jesus with this question: “Teacher *, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” Matthew 19:16 (NLT) * some manuscripts read good teacher (perhaps scribal insertion from parallel passages in Mark 10.17 and Luke 18:18 per Metzger's Textual Commentary Greek NT)

“Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep* the commandments.” Matthew 19:17 (NLT) * some manuscripts read continue to keep

Question "what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" is consistent with Ecclesiates 12:13-14 (NLT) That’s the whole story. Here now is my final conclusion: Fear God and obey his commands, for this is everyone’s duty. God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad. & Ezekiel 33:17-20 (NLT) “Your people are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right,’ but it is they who are not doing what’s right. For again I say, when righteous people turn away from their righteous behavior and turn to evil, they will die. But if wicked people turn from their wickedness and do what is just and right, they will live. O people of Israel, you are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right.’ But I judge each of you according to your deeds.”

Truthful answer by Jesus is also consistent with Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 & Ezekiel 33:17-20 (as one good deed does not guarantee ongoing Holy life)

• As Jesus was starting out on his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Mark 10:17 (NLT)
• “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. You must not cheat anyone. Honor your father and mother.’” Mark 10:18-19 (NLT)
• “Teacher,” the man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” Mark 10:20 (NLT)
• Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Mark 10:21 (NLT)
• At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions. Mark 10:22 (NLT)

Man with many possessions had a choice what to love most: his worldly stuff OR obey Jesus. Question "Why do you call me good?" reflects Jesus knowing the first love in this rich man's heart, which shows when the rich man turned away from Jesus (so rich man did not value Jesus as God).

@Bill_Coley @Bill_Coley When in his John 17 prayer, he called his Father "the one true God" (John 17:3) and made no mention of his own deity, Jesus told the truth.

Is Jesus praying "that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ" to know one deity spirit having two voices OR to know two distinct entities ?

While prayerfully pondering John 17, Thankful for gentle reminder about 1 Corinthians 13:4-5 (NLT) "Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged." David knew about immensity of God's thoughts as expressed in Psalm 139:17-18 (NLT) "How precious are your thoughts about me, O God. They cannot be numbered! I can’t even count them; they outnumber the grains of sand! And when I wake up, you are still with me!" Jesus intimately knew God (including God's Glory & Love before the world existed) => Did Jesus need to boast about his own diety ? Yet Jesus is demanding (imperative verbs) Father to Glorify your Son ... me ...

Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you—just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have glorified you on earth by completing the work that you have given me to do. And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. John 17:1-5 (LEB)

The one sent by the only true God was demanding the Father to glorify the Son with the glory that Jesus had at the side of the Father before the world existed (when only God was Spiritually alive) in order for the Son to Glorify the Father (by lovingly doing God's Will), which is consistent with 'In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.' John 1:1 (NLT) & 'God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. The Word gave life to everything that was created, * and his life brought light to everyone.' John 1:3-4 (NLT) * Or 'and nothing that was created was created except through him. The Word gave life to everything.' & 'So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.' John 1:14 (NLT) & 'For the law was given through Moses, but God’s unfailing love and faithfulness came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.' John 1:17-18 (NLT) along with “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne.* I am the bright morning star.” Revelation 22:16 (NLT) * I am the root and offspring of David. Jesus being The Word that gave life to everything is the root of David along with being the righteous offspring descendant.

Prayerfully pondering John 17 worship while agonizing over Jesus sweating drops of blood (Luke 22:44), wonder what comfort & encouragement was spiritually experienced within Jesus by remembering God's Glory at Father's side before the world existed ? Joyful reason to endure agony of human rejection, suffering and death on cross as the Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice, which Glorifies God when a sinner wants to be redeemed.

@Bill_Coley And when he told Mary after the resurrection that he was about to ascend to the one who was both his disciples' Father and his own Father, to the one who was both his disciples' God and his own God (John 20.17), Jesus told the truth.

Concur Jesus told the truth along with worship of God the Father in John 20 being consistent with worship of God the Father in John 17 ... along with Jesus receiving worship as Lord and God from Thomas, who had seen the physically resurrected body of Jesus in John 20:24-29

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The Lord's suffering servant description in Isaiah 52:13-53:12 does not specify "Word of God" part of "the one who is, and was, and is to come" Spiritual One being the Divinity indwelling human body of the lamb led to slaughter. Isaiah 53:11 righteous servant is consistent with Jeremiah 23:5-6 whose righteous branch of David is consistent with Revelation 22:16 (the source of David and the heir to his throne). Holy human body of Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, awesome love expression, while the eternal Word of God continued to exist: Ephesians 4:7-10 (ascended & descended). One God resurrected Holy body so death was swallowed up in victory.

@Bill_Coley How do we know death was swallowed up? Because God raised a man who died on a cross and was buried in a tomb. The victory of death that God won was victory over death that in fact occurred. Peter told his Jerusalem audience in Acts 2.23-24 that though they had killed Jesus (rendered him dead), "God released him from the horrors of death and raised him back to life, for death could not keep him in its grip." That death did not keep Jesus means it must for awhile have had him.

Agreed. Since Jesus died as the Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice, wonder what reception Jesus received at death ? awful agony away from God ?

@Bill_Coley In my view, discernment about the deity of Christ must not be based on a single text or motif; it must be grounded in the whole of Scripture, content the vast majority of which in my view clearly declares Jesus not to be God. If 50 passages make clear that Jesus is not God and two passages suggest he IS God. In my view, because the deity of Christ is ultimately a binary choice - either he is or he isn't - we must conclude the message of the whole of those passages is that Jesus is not God. I don't claim that the actual ratio in the NT is 50-2, but it's probably close.

Some convicted murderers would like ratio of 50-2 to declare innocence, but two items were significant for conviction beyond reasonable doubt.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In a High School math class, learned 2 + 2 = ? (whatever number you want if 0 = 1 since algebraic & math logic fails if zero and one symbols are allowed to be interchangeable). For example, 2 + 2 = 4 can have 1 added to both sides: 2 + 2 + 1 = 4 + 1 followed by substituting 0 for 1 (assuming their symbolic equality) so 2 + 2 + 0 = 4 + 1 hence 2 + 2 = 5 that is NOT necessarily true due to faulty assumption.

@Bill_Coley I have no idea why you included this paragraph in your reply. Please explain.

Ratio 50-2 reads to me as 2 + 2 = 50 from assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' Nowhere does the Bible simply state that Jesus is not God (so all "50 passages make clear that Jesus is not God" reflects personal interpretation with lack of belief). Luke 24:13-35 describes disciple discussion with the physically resurrected Jesus that includes 'Then Jesus said to them, “You foolish people! You find it so hard to believe all that the prophets wrote in the Scriptures. Wasn’t it clearly predicted that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering his glory?” Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining from all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.' Luke 24:25-27 (NLT)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Isaiah 53:9 (NLT) "He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave."

@Bill_Coley I have no idea why you included these lines in your reply. Please explain.

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is one Scripture passage that would have been discussed on the walk to Emmaus. Jewish religious high court legal reason for death of Jesus (blasphemy) was based on who Jesus said He is (so the religious "lawyers & judges" would not be accused of violating the command: "You must not murder"); Jesus did no wrong. Never deceived anyone is amazing (if not true, then Isaiah is not a prophet). Crucifixion was used to brutally kill criminals. A tomb with huge rolling stone is a rich man's grave (Joseph of Arimethea according to Matthew 27:57-61).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Matthew 7:3-5 includes insight about a hypocrite seeing the log in their own eye as a speck in the eye of another person....

@Bill_Coley Revelation 1.17 - Jesus says he died. John can't possibly mean Jesus is God because John can't possibly believe God could ever die.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What words show belief of John that 'God could not die' ? Remember John was the first disciple to believe physical body resurrection of Jesus (John 20:8 "believed" after seeing linen cloth wrappings inside tomb folded up, but physical body of Jesus Christ was no longer inside that tomb).

@Bill_Coley I don't claim John pronounced a belief that God could not die. I claim that he, like the vast, vast majority of people who have ever believed in our God, did not believe God could die because... that's who God is: immortal and everlasting.

Claiming many people believe as you do comes across as a log in your own eye that you see as a speck in other people. John 12:20-36 includes Jesus truthfully predicting his own death and method ("lifted up from the earth"), which includes: 'The crowd responded, “We understood from Scripture that the Messiah would live forever. How can you say the Son of Man will die? Just who is this Son of Man, anyway?”' John 12:34 (NLT) where crowd's 'live forever' response aligns with belief that none of God could ever die. Yet the words of Jesus in Revelation 1:17-18 (NLT) 'When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave."' agree with John 12:34 crowd about The Messiah being alive forever.

Revelation 1:12-16 Son of Man description answers John 12:34 crowd question "Just who is this Son of Man, anyway?” NLT includes footnote about "Son of Man" in Revelation 1:13 'See Dan 7:13. “Son of Man” is a title Jesus used for himself.'

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My apologies for not understanding fancy question, which simply does not explain truthfulness about Jesus saying "I am the root ... of David".

Well, I am of my father's root, and I am thus the offspring of my father. Simple enough ? David was the root, from whom Jesus had been promised to come. Jesus was thus the offspring of David, being a descendant of David.

I know, genitive constructions are sometimes not quite as easy to properly understand ...

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Knowing the ways of the only True God are not the ways of humans provides reason to strongly disagree with "Truth is always simple ..."

God revealed truths to prophets and inspired them to speak these and write them down for people to understand .... why would God do so in a manner that perhaps were so complicate that most people were unable to understand ???? If even the most simple of mankind are responsible before God for what they believe and do, would God's truths not have to be simple????

Your problem is that you make God and His communication to man complicate ... why? Perhaps so you can think you shine especially bright because you understand that complicate stuff? Of course, you will understand your self-made complications ... the problem is that your complicate theories are not the simple truthss which God had revealed and inspired the writers to put down.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My apologies for not understanding fancy question, which simply does not explain truthfulness about Jesus saying "I am the root ... of David".

@Wolfgang Well, I am of my father's root, and I am thus the offspring of my father. Simple enough ? David was the root, from whom Jesus had been promised to come. Jesus was thus the offspring of David, being a descendant of David.

@Wolfgang I know, genitive constructions are sometimes not quite as easy to properly understand ...

Revelation 22:16 phrase spoken by Jesus simply lacks any genitive/ablative spelling: ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ῥίζα καὶ τὸ γένος Δαυίδ

• ἐγώ = "I" pronoun, personal, first person, nominative, singular
• εἰμι = "I am being" verb, present, active, indicative, first person, singular (continous action in present time)
• ἡ = "the" article, nominative, singular, feminine
• ῥίζα = "root" noun, nominative, singular, feminine
• καὶ = "and" conjunction (Logos Greek Morphology tagging has 'logical connective' to indicate grammatical usage)
• τὸ = "the" article, nominative, singular, neuter
• γένος = "offspring" noun, nominative, singular, neuter
• Δαυίδ = "David" noun, indeclinable proper name (Logos Greek Morphology tagging has genitive to indicate grammatical usage)

"Simple enough" shows assumption: "God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." by twisting truthful words of Jesus from "I am the root ... of David" into "I am of the root ... of David" (sadly disappointed by genitive explanation from a professional translator, but not surprised).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Knowing the ways of the only True God are not the ways of humans provides reason to strongly disagree with "Truth is always simple ..."

@Wolfgang God revealed truths to prophets and inspired them to speak these and write them down for people to understand .... why would God do so in a manner that perhaps were so complicate that most people were unable to understand ???? If even the most simple of mankind are responsible before God for what they believe and do, would God's truths not have to be simple????

'For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.' 2 Peter 1:16-21 (AV 1900)

Praying for God to help me understand prophecy being fulfilled per God's perfect timing (while being cognizant of spiritual adversary whose first documented words in Genesis are: "Yea, hath God said ? ..." that continues to this day with cunningly devised fables, assumptions, ...)

@Wolfgang Your problem is that you make God and His communication to man complicate ... why? Perhaps so you can think you shine especially bright because you understand that complicate stuff? Of course, you will understand your self-made complications ... the problem is that your complicate theories are not the simple truthss which God had revealed and inspired the writers to put down.

God's Truth is consistent: Scripture explains Scripture. Personally disagree with assumption "God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." because the Bible does not have any text that simply validates assumption while having hundreds of prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament (Covenant) that were fulfilled by Jesus Christ in the New Testament (Covenant). Living and learning literal Truth of God's Words are amazingly consistent (while being a sinner redeemed by the Holy blood of Jesus who enjoys God's Holy Presence).

Luke 24:13-35 describes disciple discussion during walk to Emmaus with the physically resurrected Jesus Christ that includes: 'Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.' Luke 24:25-27 (AV 1900)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Revelation 22:16 phrase spoken by Jesus simply lacks any genitive/ablative spelling: ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ῥίζα καὶ τὸ γένος Δαυίδ

ἐγώ = "I" pronoun, personal, first person, nominative, singular

εἰμι = "I am being" verb, present, active, indicative, first person, singular (continous action in present time)

ἡ = "the" article, nominative, singular, feminine

ῥίζα = "root" noun, nominative, singular, feminine

καὶ = "and" conjunction (Logos Greek Morphology tagging has 'logical connective' to indicate grammatical usage)

τὸ = "the" article, nominative, singular, neuter

γένος = "offspring" noun, nominative, singular, neuter

Δαυίδ = "David" noun, indeclinable proper name (Logos Greek Morphology tagging has genitive to indicate grammatical usage)

Did you notive the latter part of your list regarding the word Δαυίδ ?

If you use Greek language as part of your argument, you should at least make sure to know what you are doing. Here, the Logos software even provides with its morphology tagging to show you information as to why the proper name is in GENITIVE usage. Please, don't use Greek, if you really are not sufficiently fluent in reading and speaking Greek. If you had simply adhered to English translations you would have been easily able to notice the genitive construction in the expression in question.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Revelation 22:16 phrase spoken by Jesus simply lacks any genitive/ablative spelling: ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ῥίζα καὶ τὸ γένος Δαυίδ

ἐγώ = "I" pronoun, personal, first person, nominative, singular

εἰμι = "I am being" verb, present, active, indicative, first person, singular (continous action in present time)

ἡ = "the" article, nominative, singular, feminine

ῥίζα = "root" noun, nominative, singular, feminine

καὶ = "and" conjunction (Logos Greek Morphology tagging has 'logical connective' to indicate grammatical usage)

τὸ = "the" article, nominative, singular, neuter

γένος = "offspring" noun, nominative, singular, neuter

Δαυίδ = "David" noun, indeclinable proper name (Logos Greek Morphology tagging has genitive to indicate grammatical usage)

@Wolfgang Did you notive the latter part of your list regarding the word Δαυίδ ?

Yes so "of" should only be suppiled in English translation for David => "I AM the root ... of David" that is different than your simple explanation adding "of" to the nominative root (changing nominative grammatical usage into genitive): "I am of the root of David" OR "I am of David's root". Hence still waiting for a truthful explanation about Jesus saying: "I AM the root ... of David". We agree Jesus is the offspring/descendant of David.

'And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.' Revelation 5:5 (AV 1900) => Related question: How can "the Lion of the tribe of Juda" be "the root of David" (ἡ ῥίζα Δαυίδ) when "the Lion of the tribe of Juda" was born ~1,000 years after David ?

FYI: found a few English Bibles that agree with your simple explanation of Revelation 22:16: e.g. Harwood's Liberal NT Translation from 1767

I Jesus have deputed my angel solemnly to attest the truth of these things in the Christian churches—I am the true descendent of David, the radiant morning-star. Revelation 22:16

Upon which one of those venerable personages thus accosted me—Indulge not thy tears, behold the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the volume, and break its seven seals. Revelation 5:5

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus .... where in Scripture is the expression "I am the root of David" used? I know of a few places where "I am the root and offspring of David" is used. "Root and offspring of" is NOT the same as just "the root of" or just "the offspring of"! Looking up some information on the use of figures of speech in the Bible - in particular the figure hendiadys - will provide the key to a proper understanding.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Wolfgang .... where in Scripture is the expression "I am the root of David" used?

My search for phrase "I am the root of David" did not find any Bible verses.

In Revelation 5:5, Who is "the Lion of the Tribe of Juda" ? Revelation 5:5 ἡ ῥίζα Δαυίδ description of The Lamb is consistent with ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ῥίζα καὶ τὸ γένος Δαυίδ in Revelation 22:16 (while remembering the words given to the faithful witness John to write came from the only True God)

And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals. Revelation 5:5 (LEB)

καὶ εἷς ἐκ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων λέγει μοι· Μὴ κλαῖε· ἰδοὺ ἐνίκησεν ὁ λέων ὁ ἐκ τῆς φυλῆς Ἰούδα, ἡ ῥίζα Δαυίδ, ἀνοῖξαι τὸ βιβλίον καὶ τὰς ἑπτὰ σφραγῖδας αὐτοῦ. Revelation 5:5 (SBLGNT)

Repeating Revelation 5:5 question: 'And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.' Revelation 5:5 (AV 1900) => Related question: How can "the Lion of the tribe of Juda" be "the root of David" (ἡ ῥίζα Δαυίδ) when "the Lion of the tribe of Juda" was born ~1,000 years after David ?

@Wolfgang I know of a few places where "I am the root and offspring of David" is used.

What are the places beside Revelation 22:16 ?

@Wolfgang "Root and offspring of" is NOT the same as just "the root of" or just "the offspring of"! Looking up some information on the use of figures of speech in the Bible - in particular the figure hendiadys - will provide the key to a proper understanding.

The NET Bible First Edition Notes (published in 2006) mentions hendiadys twice in Revelation (out of 247 times in Bible translation notes): Revelation 5:10 "priestly kingdom" and Revelation 18:13 has three possibilites: hendiadys is mentioned in the first one for "only slave trade". Printed Full Notes Edition of the Net Bible published in 2019 also mentions hendiadys in Revelation 5:10 and Revelation 18:13. Revelation 22:16 has one translation note about "the bright morning star". Previous translation note refers to falsehood (lying, deceit) in Revelation 22:15

Trying to explain truthfulness of Revelation 22:16 using hendiadys figure of speech for "the root and offspring of David" reads to me as 2 + 2 = 1, which is simply consistent with assumption: "God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God."

Keep Smiling

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

Audience hearing Jesus speak ~2,000 years ago included religious "lawyers & judges" (scribes and Pharisees had spent many years intensely studying Scriptures so they literally knew every letter of God's law), some were uncomfortable with The Truth taught by Jesus (they pridefully enjoyed their self promoted righteous position in society: best synagogue seats, greetings, political authority, ...). If human gardeners/farmers planted/sowed a smaller seed for food/seasoning, these religious "lawyers & judges" would have labeled Jesus a deceiver, a false teacher.

Modern microscopes have enabled seeds to be discovered (e.g. orchids in Asia) that are smaller than a speck of dust to unaided human vision.

The fact that some in Jesus' audience were "religious 'lawyers and judges'" in no way demonstrates that they would have known whether there were seeds smaller than mustard seeds.

In point of fact there are AND WERE IN JESUS' DAY seeds much smaller than mustard seeds (see HERE, for examples)

Question "what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" is consistent with Ecclesiates 12:13-14 (NLT) That’s the whole story. Here now is my final conclusion: Fear God and obey his commands, for this is everyone’s duty. God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad. & Ezekiel 33:17-20 (NLT) “Your people are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right,’ but it is they who are not doing what’s right. For again I say, when righteous people turn away from their righteous behavior and turn to evil, they will die. But if wicked people turn from their wickedness and do what is just and right, they will live. O people of Israel, you are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right.’ But I judge each of you according to your deeds.”

None of your Scripture citations in this part of your post negate the clear meaning of the verse I cited: A man calls Jesus "good." Jesus asks him why he calls him good when there is only one who is good. The obvious meaning of Jesus' question is that he does not believe he is the one who deserves the adjective "good" - only God does. I contend that clearly means Jesus does not believe himself to be God.

Is Jesus praying "that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ" to know one deity spirit having two voices OR to know two distinct entities ?

In my view, Jesus' reference is to two distinct entities: 1) his Father, the one Jesus calls "the only true God," and 2) himself, whom he calls "Jesus Christ." That is, he refers to God and to himself, thereby making a clear distinction between the two.

Did Jesus need to boast about his own diety ?

The question isn't whether Jesus needed to boast about his own deity, but whether he ever declared it. In my view, the clear answer is he didn't... because he didn't see himself as God.

Yet Jesus is demanding (imperative verbs) Father to Glorify your Son

I assume he was also "demanding" when in Gethsemane he asked God to take the cup from him? Such "demands" don't prove divinity; they prove the existence of "demands."

Prayerfully pondering John 17 worship while agonizing over Jesus sweating drops of blood (Luke 22:44), wonder what comfort & encouragement was spiritually experienced within Jesus by remembering God's Glory at Father's side before the world existed ? Joyful reason to endure agony of human rejection, suffering and death on cross as the Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice, which Glorifies God when a sinner wants to be redeemed.

For some reason, the issue of Jesus and sweating blood prompts me to reply when in my view posters in these threads misread the text. Luke 22.44 does NOT say Jesus sweated drops of blood. It says Jesus' sweat formed and fell "like" "great drops of blood." Luke describes the sweat drops' appearance and fall to the ground, NOT their biological composition.

As for the pre-existence theme apparent in several of Jesus' words in John's Gospel, I have already expressed my lack of clarity as to what they mean. Given the rest of Jesus' self-disclosure in John and the other Gospels, however, I conclude that theme MUST mean something other than that he thought himself to be God.

Concur Jesus told the truth along with worship of God the Father in John 20 being consistent with worship of God the Father in John 17 ... along with Jesus receiving worship as Lord and God from Thomas, who had seen the physically resurrected body of Jesus in John 20:24-29

Your response fails to engage the specific content of Jesus' response to Mary. He tells her that he is ascending to the one who is both his own AND the disciples' God, to the one who is both his own AND his disciples' Father. Such word choice in my view makes clear that he understands himself to be a peer of his disciples, not a peer of the one who is both his and their Father and God.

PLEASE ADDRESS DIRECTLY: If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he tell his disciples that he was ascending to the one who was his (and their) God? Where in that post-resurrection scene with Mary do you find ANY evidence that Jesus believed himself to be God? Isn't the clear, unambiguous meaning of his words to her that he believes he and the disciples have the same God/Father, and that that he himself is NOT that God/Father?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The Lord's suffering servant description in Isaiah 52:13-53:12 does not specify "Word of God" part of "the one who is, and was, and is to come" Spiritual One being the Divinity indwelling human body of the lamb led to slaughter. Isaiah 53:11 righteous servant is consistent with Jeremiah 23:5-6 whose righteous branch of David is consistent with Revelation 22:16 (the source of David and the heir to his throne). Holy human body of Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, awesome love expression, while the eternal Word of God continued to exist: Ephesians 4:7-10 (ascended & descended). One God resurrected Holy body so death was swallowed up in victory.

Just as correlation doesn't guarantee causation (e.g. that a crime was committed at sunrise does not guarantee the sunrise caused the crime) so consistency does not guarantee connection. In context, the Jeremiah 23 text declares God's intention to bring home those who at that time were exiled in Babylon and other locations; it is not a prophetic word about a "King" from David's line who will be born in another 550-600 years. The Revelation text reports Jesus' self-declaration as the source of the message John reports. NEITHER text says anything about Jesus' being "the Word of God."

Agreed. Since Jesus died as the Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice, wonder what reception Jesus received at death ? awful agony away from God ?

Common ground. Good.

If Jesus is God, and Jesus died, then AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, God died. That makes no sense to me, and in my view is not possible. In Acts 4.10 Peter resolves the matter by calling Jesus "the man" the Jews killed, but whom "God raised from the dead."

Some convicted murderers would like ratio of 50-2 to declare innocence, but two items were significant for conviction beyond reasonable doubt.

I can't imagine a criminal case in which 50 of 52 asserted facts of approximately equal relevance and importance demonstrated that the defendant was in another state at the time of the crime could produce a guilty verdict "beyond a reasonable doubt."

As relates to our discussion, I contend that all of the passages I cite as support for my claim that Jesus is not God are as relevant and important as the passages you cite as support for your claim that he is. That is, when Jesus tells Mary he's ascending to the one who is both his own and the disciples' God/Father, that's as important and relevant a Scripture text as any you cite. And since I could cite dozens and dozens of equally important and relevant texts that support the same conclusion, the question for you is, why does the Bible leave ANY room for doubt about the divinity of Jesus? If the Bible is inerrant and infallible, as I'm sure you believe it is, why are there ANY verses whose most obvious meaning is Jesus is not God? And why does the Bible NEVER directly make the claim that Jesus is God, a claim of eternal and inestimable significance?

Ratio 50-2 reads to me as 2 + 2 = 50 from assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' Nowhere does the Bible simply state that Jesus is not God (so all "50 passages make clear that Jesus is not God" reflects personal interpretation with lack of belief).

Neither does the Bible anywhere "simply state" that Jesus is not a tomato. In your view, does that mean Jesus might have been a tomato? I'm sure not. The reason the Bible doesn't say "Jesus is not God" is that it doesn't need to; Bible writers don't countenance that possibility. Instead, they believe Jesus is the one through whom God did marvelous works and delivered salvation to the world. (cf. John 14.6; Acts 2.22; Acts 4.2; Acts 4.30; Acts 10.36; Acts 13.38; Romans 2.16; Romans 3.24; Romans 5.15; Romans 5.21; Romans 6.11; Romans 6.23; 1 Cor 8.6; 1 Cor 15.57; Gal 3.14; Gal 3.26; and many, many, MANY others)

Luke 24:13-35 describes disciple discussion with the physically resurrected Jesus that includes 'Then Jesus said to them, “You foolish people! You find it so hard to believe all that the prophets wrote in the Scriptures. Wasn’t it clearly predicted that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering his glory?” Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining from all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.' Luke 24:25-27 (NLT)

That Jesus understood himself to be the Messiah does NOT mean he saw himself as God. Jesus never claimed to be God, or that the Messiah was God.

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is one Scripture passage that would have been discussed on the walk to Emmaus. Jewish religious high court legal reason for death of Jesus (blasphemy) was based on who Jesus said He is (so the religious "lawyers & judges" would not be accused of violating the command: "You must not murder"); Jesus did no wrong. Never deceived anyone is amazing (if not true, then Isaiah is not a prophet). Crucifixion was used to brutally kill criminals. A tomb with huge rolling stone is a rich man's grave (Joseph of Arimethea according to Matthew 27:57-61).

I've not claimed - and do not claim - Jesus spoke falsely about his own identity. I've claimed that the religious leaders were wrong when they claimed Jesus had declared himself to be God.

Claiming many people believe as you do comes across as a log in your own eye that you see as a speck in other people. John 12:20-36 includes Jesus truthfully predicting his own death and method ("lifted up from the earth"), which includes: 'The crowd responded, “We understood from Scripture that the Messiah would live forever. How can you say the Son of Man will die? Just who is this Son of Man, anyway?”' John 12:34 (NLT) where crowd's 'live forever' response aligns with belief that none of God could ever die.

Logs and specks? The imagery makes no sense to me in our discussion.

Jesus predicted his own death AS THE "MESSIAH" AND "THE SON OF MAN," neither of which he EVER claimed meant he was God.

Jesus' response to the crowd's claim in John 12.34 that the Messiah would live forever CORRECTS their view. He tells them "my light will shine for you just a little longer." (John 12.35) Translation: The Messiah WILL die (and then be raised from the dead, of course). But Jesus' correction in no way means he thought himself to be God. It was the Son of Man and the Messiah who would die, NOT God.

Yet the words of Jesus in Revelation 1:17-18 (NLT) 'When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave."' agree with John 12:34 crowd about The Messiah being alive forever.

Rev 1.17-18 report the words of the glorified Jesus, NOT the words of God. The verses do NOT say that he was "alive forever." In fact, in them Jesus explicitly says "I died." He lives forever NOW because God raised him from the dead, but before God raised him, he in fact "died," which, I claim, is something God cannot do.

And as I pointed out above, in John 12.35 Jesus corrected the crowd's view that the Messiah would never die.

[Deleted User]

@Bill_Coley responded to @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

If Jesus is God, and Jesus died, then AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, God died. That makes no sense to me, and in my view is not possible. In Acts 4.10 Peter resolves the matter by calling Jesus "the man" the Jews killed, but whom "God raised from the dead."

Perhaps Peter was just too serious a fellow and did not sufficiently "keep smiling for Jesus" to estimate that a dead God raised Himself from the dead?

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

Audience hearing Jesus speak ~2,000 years ago included religious "lawyers & judges" (scribes and Pharisees had spent many years intensely studying Scriptures so they literally knew every letter of God's law), some were uncomfortable with The Truth taught by Jesus (they pridefully enjoyed their self promoted righteous position in society: best synagogue seats, greetings, political authority, ...). If human gardeners/farmers planted/sowed a smaller seed for food/seasoning, these religious "lawyers & judges" would have labeled Jesus a deceiver, a false teacher.

Modern microscopes have enabled seeds to be discovered (e.g. orchids in Asia) that are smaller than a speck of dust to unaided human vision.

@Bill_Coley The fact that some in Jesus' audience were "religious 'lawyers and judges'" in no way demonstrates that they would have known whether there were seeds smaller than mustard seeds.

Wonder about gardening scenario in the time of Jesus: a Jewish farmer wanted some mustard in garden while knowing the plant would become big (~12 feet tall) so intentionally sowed seed in a property corner. Resulting growth should have a quarter or less of the mustard plant over the farmer's property while vast majority of plant grew over neighboring Jewish land. This farmer would not discuss plant relocation with neighbors (nor pay for the use of their land for personal mustard growth), which resulted in lawsuit before Jewish religious 'lawyers and judges'.

Rhetorical question: from litigating many disputes, what would Jewish religious 'lawyers and judges' have known about farming & gardening ?

@Bill_Coley In point of fact there are AND WERE IN JESUS' DAY seeds much smaller than mustard seeds (see HERE, for examples)

Article refers to modern knowledge of seed sizes while lacking documentation about known seed sizes when Jesus spoke. Also article dismisses story context as 'a gambit' while coming to the same agricultural use conclusion. Article writer would like Lexham English Bible (LEB) translation:

And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or by what parable can we present it? It is like a mustard seed that when sown on the ground, although it is the smallest of all the seeds that are on the ground, but when it is sown it grows up and becomes the largest of all the garden herbs, and sends out large branches so that the birds of the sky are able to nest in its shade.” Mark 4:30-32 (LEB)

Question "what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" is consistent with Ecclesiates 12:13-14 (NLT) That’s the whole story. Here now is my final conclusion: Fear God and obey his commands, for this is everyone’s duty. God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad. & Ezekiel 33:17-20 (NLT) “Your people are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right,’ but it is they who are not doing what’s right. For again I say, when righteous people turn away from their righteous behavior and turn to evil, they will die. But if wicked people turn from their wickedness and do what is just and right, they will live. O people of Israel, you are saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right.’ But I judge each of you according to your deeds.”

@Bill_Coley None of your Scripture citations in this part of your post negate the clear meaning of the verse I cited: A man calls Jesus "good." Jesus asks him why he calls him good when there is only one who is good. The obvious meaning of Jesus' question is that he does not believe he is the one who deserves the adjective "good" - only God does. I contend that clearly means Jesus does not believe himself to be God.

Clearly comments come across as manipulation attempts toward assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." (using various debating techniques). Scientific method starts with assumption, then tests assumption, followed by modifying assumption to fit observed results. Clearly missing from Question quotation is context (debating misdirection), especially my concluding remarks reflecting my belief in One God's Holy redemption plan that directly engaged with Jesus replying to rich man. Obviously we have different understanding of question purpose.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Man with many possessions had a choice what to love most: his worldly stuff OR obey Jesus. Question "Why do you call me good?" reflects Jesus knowing the first love in this rich man's heart, which shows when the rich man turned away from Jesus (so rich man did not value Jesus as God).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Is Jesus praying "that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ" to know one deity spirit having two voices OR to know two distinct entities ?

@Bill_Coley In my view, Jesus' reference is to two distinct entities: 1) his Father, the one Jesus calls "the only true God," and 2) himself, whom he calls "Jesus Christ." That is, he refers to God and to himself, thereby making a clear distinction between the two.

How can '1) his Father, the one Jesus calls "the only true God," and 2) himself, whom he calls "Jesus Christ."' be 'one, just as we are one' ?

“And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one—I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me." John 17:20-23 (LEB)

If Jesus is not God, how can any human believing in Jesus not violate the most important commandment ? (not all of human is Loving God first)

“Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (LEB) quoted by Jesus in Matthew 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-34

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Did Jesus need to boast about his own diety ?

@Bill_Coley The question isn't whether Jesus needed to boast about his own deity, but whether he ever declared it. In my view, the clear answer is he didn't... because he didn't see himself as God.

And when day came, the council of elders of the people gathered, both chief priests and scribes, and they led him away to their Sanhedrin, saying, “If you are the Christ, tell us!” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will never believe, and if I ask you, you will never answer! But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” So they all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.” And they said, “Why do we have need of further testimony? For we ourselves have heard it from his mouth!” Luke 22:66-71 (LEB) includes insight that direct deity declaration does not guarantee belief Jesus is Lord God (as is God the Father & Breath the Holy). Self identification of Jesus is Lord God. Jesus truthfully saying "I AM" (in phrase 'You say that I am.') was recognized by Sanhedrin religious 'lawyers and judges' as legal reason for Jesus to die.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Yet Jesus is demanding (imperative verbs) Father to Glorify your Son

@Bill_Coley I assume he was also "demanding" when in Gethsemane he asked God to take the cup from him? Such "demands" don't prove divinity; they prove the existence of "demands."

And he went away and proceeded, according to his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him. And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not enter into temptation.” And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw and knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if you are willing, take away this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.” ⟦And an angel from heaven appeared to him, strengthening him. And being in anguish, he began praying more fervently and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down to the ground.⟧ And when he got up from the prayer and came to the disciples, he found them sleeping from sorrow, and he said to them, “Why are you sleeping? Get up and pray that you will not enter into temptation!” Luke 22:39-46 (LEB) Thankful for visual filter highlighting in Logos so can "see" Greek verbal usage.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Prayerfully pondering John 17 worship while agonizing over Jesus sweating drops of blood (Luke 22:44), wonder what comfort & encouragement was spiritually experienced within Jesus by remembering God's Glory at Father's side before the world existed ? Joyful reason to endure agony of human rejection, suffering and death on cross as the Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice, which Glorifies God when a sinner wants to be redeemed.

@Bill_Coley For some reason, the issue of Jesus and sweating blood prompts me to reply when in my view posters in these threads misread the text. Luke 22.44 does NOT say Jesus sweated drops of blood. It says Jesus' sweat formed and fell "like" "great drops of blood." Luke describes the sweat drops' appearance and fall to the ground, NOT their biological composition.

Modern medical term is hematidrosis, blood sweat => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis (biological composition is blood in sweat: little blood changes color of sweat while lots of blood changes sweat fluid consistency). In the Jewish calendar, the 14th of Nisan night always has a full moon so suspect more than a little bood was in sweat of Jesus to match Luke's description during moonlight prayer on the Mount of Olives.

@Bill_Coley As for the pre-existence theme apparent in several of Jesus' words in John's Gospel, I have already expressed my lack of clarity as to what they mean. Given the rest of Jesus' self-disclosure in John and the other Gospels, however, I conclude that theme MUST mean something other than that he thought himself to be God.

Every human chooses what to believe & love first. Believing assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' is reflected by assertion "pre-existence theme MUST mean something other than that he thought himself to be God." that clearly contradicts Jesus having God's Glory and Love when the only living Spiritual Being was One God. Hence Jesus knows He is Lord God, who is one in The Father Lord God.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Concur Jesus told the truth along with worship of God the Father in John 20 being consistent with worship of God the Father in John 17 ... along with Jesus receiving worship as Lord and God from Thomas, who had seen the physically resurrected body of Jesus in John 20:24-29

@Bill_Coley Your response fails to engage the specific content of Jesus' response to Mary. He tells her that he is ascending to the one who is both his own AND the disciples' God, to the one who is both his own AND his disciples' Father. Such word choice in my view makes clear that he understands himself to be a peer of his disciples, not a peer of the one who is both his and their Father and God.

Actually my worship answer did engage specific content. Jesus worships The Father as Lord God along with Jesus receiving worship as Lord God.

@Bill_Coley PLEASE ADDRESS DIRECTLY: If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he tell his disciples that he was ascending to the one who was his (and their) God?

Holy human body had blood sacrifice for sin so ascending purpose is consistent with eternal redemption in Hebrew 9:6-28 (LEB) Now these things having been prepared in this way, the priests enter into the first tent continually as they accomplish their service, but only the high priest enters into the second tent once a year, not without blood, which he offers on behalf of himself and the sins of the people committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was making this clear, that the way into the holy place was not yet revealed, while the first tent was still in existence, which was a symbol for the present time, in which both the gifts and sacrifices which were offered were not able to perfect the worshiper with respect to the conscience, concerning instead only food and drink and different washings, regulations of outward things imposed until the time of setting things right. But Christ has arrived as a high priest of the good things to come. Through the greater and more perfect tent not made by hands, that is, not of this creation, and not by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once for all into the most holy place, obtaining eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled sanctify them for the ritual purity of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God? And because of this, he is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions committed during the first covenant, those who are the called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a will, it is a necessity for the death of the one who made the will to be established. For a will is in force concerning those who are dead, since it is never in force when the one who made the will is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was ratified without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded for you.” And likewise he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the utensils of service with the blood. Indeed, nearly everything is purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the sketches of the things in heaven to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves to be purified with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf, and not in order that he can offer himself many times, as the high priest enters into the sanctuary year by year with blood not his own, since it would have been necessary for him to suffer many times from the foundation of the world, but now he has appeared once at the end of the ages for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment, thus also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for the second time without reference to sin to those who eagerly await him for salvation.

@Bill_Coley ... Where in that post-resurrection scene with Mary do you find ANY evidence that Jesus believed himself to be God? Isn't the clear, unambiguous meaning of his words to her that he believes he and the disciples have the same God/Father, and that that he himself is NOT that God/Father?

Many Biblical encounters hearing/seeing Angels and God begin with command: "Be not afraid!" (noticeably missing from post-resurrection scene)

'Then the disciples went away again to their own homes. But Mary stood outside at the tomb, weeping. Then, while she was weeping, she bent over to look into the tomb, and she saw two angels in white, seated one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been lying. And they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have put him!” When she had said these things, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and she did not know that it was Jesus.' John 20:10-14 (LEB)

Astonished for Mary to even see two Angels and Jesus considering her intensity of weeping (tears obscure vision). Longer ending of Mark begins Now early on the first day of the week, after he rose, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had expelled seven demons. Mark 16:9 (LEB).

'Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Who are you looking for?” She thought that it was the gardener, and said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will take him.” Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned around and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni” (which means “Teacher”). Jesus said to her, “Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.’ ” Mary Magdalene came and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and he had said these things to her. ' John 20:15-18 (LEB)

Thankful for amazing change inside Mary from intense sorrow to immense Joy by obeying her name being spoken by Jesus to look, see, and believe. Mary previously heard precious voice of Jesus command seven demons to leave, resulting in immediate freedom from her sin bondage.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The Lord's suffering servant description in Isaiah 52:13-53:12 does not specify "Word of God" part of "the one who is, and was, and is to come" Spiritual One being the Divinity indwelling human body of the lamb led to slaughter. Isaiah 53:11 righteous servant is consistent with Jeremiah 23:5-6 whose righteous branch of David is consistent with Revelation 22:16 (the source of David and the heir to his throne). Holy human body of Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, awesome love expression, while the eternal Word of God continued to exist: Ephesians 4:7-10 (ascended & descended). One God resurrected Holy body so death was swallowed up in victory.

@Bill_Coley Just as correlation doesn't guarantee causation (e.g. that a crime was committed at sunrise does not guarantee the sunrise caused the crime) so consistency does not guarantee connection. In context, the Jeremiah 23 text declares God's intention to bring home those who at that time were exiled in Babylon and other locations; it is not a prophetic word about a "King" from David's line who will be born in another 550-600 years. The Revelation text reports Jesus' self-declaration as the source of the message John reports. NEITHER text says anything about Jesus' being "the Word of God."

“Look, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘Yahweh is our righteousness.’ Jeremiah 23:5-6 (LEB) has wording that obviously disagrees with 'not a prophetic word about a "King" from David's line who will be born in another 550-600 years'. Perhaps Jeremiah 23:5-6 should be added to your pre-existence verse list with 1 John 2:1 'Jesus Christ the righteous one' (one added in LEB) fulfillment (Jesus Christ = YHWH the Righteous). English translation ‘Yahweh is our righteousness.’ is a combination of YHWH (Lord God) & Tzidkenu (our righteousness). Holy human body of Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, which enables God's Righteousness to be experienced by sinners choosing to repent = redeemed by blood of Jesus for Holy living in One God.

“I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” Revelation 22:16 (LEB) & 'And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.' Revelation 5:5 (LEB) are two more pre-existence verse list candidates: the root of David (God created)

Pre-existence of Jesus when the only Spiritual Being alive is One God obviously means Jesus is a voice in One God's commUnity of Love. Also plural unified God is a truly accurate description of three voices Being Unified in One True God. (Hebrew language plural is a minimum of three)

@Bill_Coley If Jesus is God, and Jesus died, then AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, God died. That makes no sense to me, and in my view is not possible. In Acts 4.10 Peter resolves the matter by calling Jesus "the man" the Jews killed, but whom "God raised from the dead."

@Wolfgang Perhaps Peter was just too serious a fellow and did not sufficiently "keep smiling for Jesus" to estimate that a dead God raised Himself from the dead? 

Lexham English Bible (LEB) translates Greek phrase "ὃν ὑμεῖς ἐσταυρώσατε" as "whom you crucified" while NLT uses words "the man" for relative pronoun ὃν in phrase "the man you crucified". Both LEB and NLT translate ὃν in the next phrase as whom: 'whom God raised from the dead' (with NLT inserting word 'but' that is not in the Society of Biblical Literature Greek New Testament).

Disagree with implication in wording: "If Jesus is God, and Jesus died, then AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, God died." that Jesus is all of God (only one voice), which simply disagrees with scripture. Inside Holy human body was The Word of God spiritual portion of One God, which was/is fully God. Plural unified God includes The Father & Breath The Holy so is being more than just The Word of God (in One God's commUnity of Love). If Jesus is all of God, then who is The Father that Jesus prayed to along with who spoke from heaven, saying "This is my son in whom I am well pleased" ?

John 19:28 notes in NET Bible 1st Edition: 84 sn In order to fulfill (τελειωθῇ [teleiōthē], a wordplay on the previous statement that everything was completed [τετέλεσται, tetelestai]) the scripture, he said, “I am thirsty.” The scripture referred to is probably Ps 69:21, “They also gave me gall for my food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” Also suggested, however, is Ps 22:15, “My tongue cleaves to the roof of my mouth, and you [God] lay me in the dust of death.” Ps 22:1 reads “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?,” a statement Jesus makes from the cross in both Matt 27:46 and Mark 15:34. In light of the connection in the Fourth Gospel between thirst and the living water which Jesus offers, it is highly ironic that here Jesus himself, the source of that living water, expresses his thirst. And since 7:39 associates the living water with the Holy Spirit, Jesus’ statement here in 19:28 amounts to an admission that at this point he has been forsaken by God (cf. Ps 22:1, Matt 27:46, and Mark 15:34).

Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. And a certain man was being carried who was lame from birth. He was placed every day at the gate of the temple called “Beautiful,” so that he could ask for charitable gifts from those who were going into the temple courts. When he saw Peter and John about to go into the temple courts, he began asking to receive alms. And Peter looked intently at him, together with John, and said, “Look at us!” So he fixed his attention on them, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not possess, but what I have, this I give to you—in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, walk!” And taking hold of him by the right hand, he raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong. And leaping up, he stood and began walking around and entered into the temple courts with them, walking and leaping and praising God. And all the people saw him walking and praising God, And they recognized him, that this one was the one who used to sit asking for alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple, and they were filled with awe and astonishment at what had happened to him. Acts 3:1-10 (LEB)

And it happened that on the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes came together in Jerusalem, and Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all those who were from the high priest’s family. And they made them stand in their midst and began to ask, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a sick man—by what means this man was healed—let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man stands before you healthy! This one is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, that has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that is given among people by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:5-12 (LEB)

@Bill_Coley ...  the question for you is, why does the Bible leave ANY room for doubt about the divinity of Jesus? If the Bible is inerrant and infallible, as I'm sure you believe it is, why are there ANY verses whose most obvious meaning is Jesus is not God?

How does one choose to experience Love that truly desires the Best for everyone ? This world has the ultimate master manipulator of Love distractions (often mixing truth with crafty lies, which started with "Did God say ?" sowing doubt that resulted in sin = turning away from God).

We consistently disagree about most obvious meaning of many Bible verses, which includes direct expression of Jesus being "I AM" Lord God that was understood by a number of religious 'lawyers and judges', who never believed. They had Jesus put to death for Blasphemy (cursing God). Incredibly sad for the men who wanted many years of Scripture study (starting with desire to know & Love God), but whose hearts turned away from God somewhere during their studies so they did NOT believe Jesus is "I AM" Lord God. Also sad is Judas Iscarot being among the 72 humans sent out to do marvelous works of God, but choosing to be a thief resulting in the betrayal of Jesus for thirty pieces of silver (temporary stuff).

@Bill_Coley ...  And why does the Bible NEVER directly make the claim that Jesus is God, a claim of eternal and inestimable significance?

Choice is believing assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' OR believing what the Bible says about Lord God Jesus Christ. Maintaining assumption belief is embedded in question wording "And why does the Bible NEVER directly make the claim that Jesus is God, a claim of eternal and inestimable significance?" If the direct deity claims in the Bible are True, then the assumption is false (faulty) that needs modification.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Ratio 50-2 reads to me as 2 + 2 = 50 from assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' Nowhere does the Bible simply state that Jesus is not God (so all "50 passages make clear that Jesus is not God" reflects personal interpretation with lack of belief).

@Bill_Coley Neither does the Bible anywhere "simply state" that Jesus is not a tomato. In your view, does that mean Jesus might have been a tomato? I'm sure not. The reason the Bible doesn't say "Jesus is not God" is that it doesn't need to; Bible writers don't countenance that possibility. Instead, they believe Jesus is the one through whom God did marvelous works and delivered salvation to the world. (cf. John 14.6; Acts 2.22; Acts 4.2; Acts 4.30; Acts 10.36; Acts 13.38; Romans 2.16; Romans 3.24; Romans 5.15; Romans 5.21; Romans 6.11; Romans 6.23; 1 Cor 8.6; 1 Cor 15.57; Gal 3.14; Gal 3.26; and many, many, MANY others)

Corollary to assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God' is 'One through whom God does marvelous works cannot be God. Jesus being both God and human lovingly showed works God could do through human to Glorify God, followed by sending out 72 in Luke 10:1-20

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Luke 24:13-35 describes disciple discussion with the physically resurrected Jesus that includes 'Then Jesus said to them, “You foolish people! You find it so hard to believe all that the prophets wrote in the Scriptures. Wasn’t it clearly predicted that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering his glory?” Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining from all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.' Luke 24:25-27 (NLT)

@Bill_Coley That Jesus understood himself to be the Messiah does NOT mean he saw himself as God. Jesus never claimed to be God, or that the Messiah was God.

Intensity of belief in assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' results in 'Jesus never claimed to be God' that contradicts Jewish legal reason for Jesus being put to death (by unbelieving religious lawyers and judges with combined study numbering hundreds of years).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is one Scripture passage that would have been discussed on the walk to Emmaus. Jewish religious high court legal reason for death of Jesus (blasphemy) was based on who Jesus said He is (so the religious "lawyers & judges" would not be accused of violating the command: "You must not murder"); Jesus did no wrong. Never deceived anyone is amazing (if not true, then Isaiah is not a prophet). Crucifixion was used to brutally kill criminals. A tomb with huge rolling stone is a rich man's grave (Joseph of Arimethea according to Matthew 27:57-61).

@Bill_Coley I've not claimed - and do not claim - Jesus spoke falsely about his own identity. I've claimed that the religious leaders were wrong when they claimed Jesus had declared himself to be God.

Prayfully pondering Luke 22:66-71 scene helped me realize Jesus speaking "You say that I am" would truthfully declare Jesus is "I AM" Lord God as Jesus could not say "I Am" without human ears & hearts recognizing Jesus as Lord God in human flesh. Jesus was always Truthful (could not lie).

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is not God, how can any human believing in Jesus not violate the most important commandment ? (not all of human is Loving God first)

“Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (LEB) quoted by Jesus in Matthew 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-34

Since Jesus did not refer to himself when he spoke of the true God but rather clearly identified the true God as the One to Whom he referred as his father, it is clear that any human believing in Jesus would be well advised to do as Jesus did ... he did not violate the most important commandment because he loved YHWH, his Father, with all his heart, soul and might.

Truth is, if any human loves someone other than YWHW, Jesus' Father, that person would be violating the most important commandment ... no matter who that other than Jesus' Father is.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is not God, how can any human believing in Jesus not violate the most important commandment ? (not all of human is Loving God first)

“Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 (LEB) quoted by Jesus in Matthew 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-34

@Wolfgang Since Jesus did not refer to himself when he spoke of the true God but rather clearly identified the true God as the One to Whom he referred as his father, it is clear that any human believing in Jesus would be well advised to do as Jesus did ... he did not violate the most important commandment because he loved YHWH, his Father, with all his heart, soul and might.

Does Jesus praying 'believe in me' to The Father (Lord YHWH God) truthfully contradict "Since Jesus did not refer to himself ..." ?

“And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one—I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me. “Father, those whom you have given to me—I want that those also may be with me where I am, in order that they may see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. Righteous Father, although the world does not know you, yet I have known you, and these men have come to know that you sent me. And I made known to them your name, and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I may be in them.” John 17:20-26 (LEB)

Keep Smiling 😊

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

Wonder about gardening scenario in the time of Jesus: a Jewish farmer wanted some mustard in garden while knowing the plant would become big (~12 feet tall) so intentionally sowed seed in a property corner. Resulting growth should have a quarter or less of the mustard plant over the farmer's property while vast majority of plant grew over neighboring Jewish land. This farmer would not discuss plant relocation with neighbors (nor pay for the use of their land for personal mustard growth), which resulted in lawsuit before Jewish religious 'lawyers and judges'.

Rhetorical question: from litigating many disputes, what would Jewish religious 'lawyers and judges' have known about farming & gardening ?

It doesn't really matter whether the lawyers and judges knew about farming and gardening. What matters is whether there were seeds smaller than mustard seeds at the time Jesus made his declaration. The answer is there was.

Article refers to modern knowledge of seed sizes while lacking documentation about known seed sizes when Jesus spoke. Also article dismisses story context as 'a gambit' while coming to the same agricultural use conclusion.

If, as you claim, Jesus were God, wouldn't he have known about all seeds, including those smaller than mustard seeds? Or do you claim Jesus as God was not as omniscient as we typically claim God to be?

And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or by what parable can we present it? It is like a mustard seed that when sown on the ground, although it is the smallest of all the seeds that are on the ground, but when it is sown it grows up and becomes the largest of all the garden herbs, and sends out large branches so that the birds of the sky are able to nest in its shade.” Mark 4:30-32 (LEB)

In Jesus' time, neither were mustard seeds "the smallest of all seeds that (were) on the ground."

Clearly comments come across as manipulation attempts toward assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." (using various debating techniques). Scientific method starts with assumption, then tests assumption, followed by modifying assumption to fit observed results. Clearly missing from Question quotation is context (debating misdirection), especially my concluding remarks reflecting my belief in One God's Holy redemption plan that directly engaged with Jesus replying to rich man. Obviously we have different understanding of question purpose.

No manipulation. No "debating techniques" or "misdirection." The text says what it says. And what it says has nothing to do with "One God's Holy redemption plan." As prelude to his question about what he must do "to inherit eternal life," a man calls Jesus "good teacher." In reply, BEFORE addressing the man's inquiry, Jesus disavows the adjective "good" because, he claims, only God deserves it. In the text, there is NO connection between the two pieces of Jesus' reply to the man.

How can '1) his Father, the one Jesus calls "the only true God," and 2) himself, whom he calls "Jesus Christ."' be 'one, just as we are one' ?

I have addressed this in previous posts.

What does Jesus mean when he claims that he and God are "one"? Jesus tells us what he means in his prayer found in John 17. (emphasis added)

22 “I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. 23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me. 24 Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began! 

25 “O righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me. 26 I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.” 

Notice:

• In v.22 Jesus prays that his disciples will be "one" as he and God are "one." So whatever oneness Jesus believes he has with God MUST be possible for his disciples with each other. That fact rules out that his being "one" with God means he thinks he IS God.
• In v.23, Jesus gives a first indication of what such oneness means: He wants to be "in" his disciples, while God is "in" him.
• Also in v.23, Jesus prays that his disciples will experience "perfect unity." THAT'S what Jesus means by his disciples' being "one" as he and God are "one." Oneness is a state of relational and spiritual intimacy... i.e. "perfect unity."

If Jesus is not God, how can any human believing in Jesus not violate the most important commandment ? (not all of human is Loving God first)

To believe in Jesus in no way violates said commandment. Of course that depends on what one means by "believing" in him. I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior, the one through whom God offered me and the world life abundant and eternal. Jesus doesn't have to be God - in fact, CANNOT be God - in order to be the one through whom God made such an offer.

Jesus makes a distinction between himself and God yet again near the end of the John 17 prayer: "O righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me." (John 17.25) So Jesus knows God even though the world doesn't, and the disciples know that God sent Jesus. Another clear distinction.

And when day came, the council of elders of the people gathered, both chief priests and scribes, and they led him away to their Sanhedrin, saying, “If you are the Christ, tell us!” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will never believe, and if I ask you, you will never answer! But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” So they all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.” And they said, “Why do we have need of further testimony? For we ourselves have heard it from his mouth!” Luke 22:66-71 (LEB) includes insight that direct deity declaration does not guarantee belief Jesus is Lord God (as is God the Father & Breath the Holy). Self identification of Jesus is Lord God. Jesus truthfully saying "I AM" (in phrase 'You say that I am.') was recognized by Sanhedrin religious 'lawyers and judges' as legal reason for Jesus to die.

We've been down this road multiple times.

At NO TIME in his engagement with the Sanhedrin does Jesus claim to be God. He claims to be the "Son of Man," and, indirectly, the "Messiah" or "Christ," but he does NOT claim to be God. [FOR ACCURACY'S SAKE I MUST NOTE: You chose, without disclaimer or explanation, to quote from the LEB, whose translation of that passage is very much at odds with other translations, almost all of which report that Jesus told the priests and scribes that they would see the "Son of Man," NOT the "Son of God," seated at the right hand of the power of God.]

And he went away and proceeded, according to his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him. And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not enter into temptation.” And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw and knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if you are willing, take away this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.” ⟦And an angel from heaven appeared to him, strengthening him. And being in anguish, he began praying more fervently and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down to the ground.⟧ And when he got up from the prayer and came to the disciples, he found them sleeping from sorrow, and he said to them, “Why are you sleeping? Get up and pray that you will not enter into temptation!” Luke 22:39-46 (LEB) Thankful for visual filter highlighting in Logos so can "see" Greek verbal usage.

I asked whether Jesus was "demanding" of God in his Gethsemane prayer. In this response, I don't see your answer to that question.

Modern medical term is hematidrosis, blood sweat => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis (biological composition is blood in sweat: little blood changes color of sweat while lots of blood changes sweat fluid consistency). In the Jewish calendar, the 14th of Nisan night always has a full moon so suspect more than a little bood was in sweat of Jesus to match Luke's description during moonlight prayer on the Mount of Olives.

Possible medical diagnoses don't change the content of the text, which says Jesus' sweat "fell like great drops of blood," which in context is clearly a description of the consistency and fall to the ground of his sweat, not its biological consistency. We've been down THIS road in the past, as well. For some reason, your responses to me never address the text of the verse. When Luke says of Jesus that "his sweat fell to the ground like great drops of blood," (Luke 22.44, NLT) does he describe the sweat's fall or the sweat's composition?

Every human chooses what to believe & love first. Believing assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' is reflected by assertion "pre-existence theme MUST mean something other than that he thought himself to be God." that clearly contradicts Jesus having God's Glory and Love when the only living Spiritual Being was One God. Hence Jesus knows He is Lord God, who is one in The Father Lord God.

I don't know about the choices of "every human being." I know I choose to believe what Jesus says about himself as the first among several sources of information available in the Gospels. In my view, Jesus' clear claim is that he is NOT God. The pre-existence sayings, which reside only in John among the Gospels, remain unclear to me.

Actually my worship answer did engage specific content. Jesus worships The Father as Lord God along with Jesus receiving worship as Lord God.

The text in question here says NOTHING about Jesus' receiving worship - not as "Lord God;" not as ANY kind of form of God. The man calls him only "good teacher."

Holy human body had blood sacrifice for sin so ascending purpose is consistent with eternal redemption in Hebrew 9:6-28 (LEB) 

The Hebrew 9 passage that you cited does not address the question I asked - and in fact, presents additional assertions of the distinction between God and Jesus (Heb 6.14,24-25) - so I ask it again: If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he tell his disciples that he was ascending to the one who was his (and their) God?

Many Biblical encounters hearing/seeing Angels and God begin with command: "Be not afraid!" (noticeably missing from post-resurrection scene)

The passages you quoted in your response to my questions about the resurrected Jesus' word to Mary of his ascension to the one who was his and his disciples' God/Father did not address the questions I asked so I ask them again: Where in that post-resurrection scene with Mary do you find ANY evidence that Jesus believed himself to be God? Isn't the clear, unambiguous meaning of his words to her that he believes he and the disciples have the same God/Father, and that that he himself is NOT that God/Father?

“Look, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘Yahweh is our righteousness.’ Jeremiah 23:5-6 (LEB) has wording that obviously disagrees with 'not a prophetic word about a "King" from David's line who will be born in another 550-600 years'. Perhaps Jeremiah 23:5-6 should be added to your pre-existence verse list with 1 John 2:1 'Jesus Christ the righteous one' (one added in LEB) fulfillment (Jesus Christ = YHWH the Righteous). English translation ‘Yahweh is our righteousness.’ is a combination of YHWH (Lord God) & Tzidkenu (our righteousness). Holy human body of Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, which enables God's Righteousness to be experienced by sinners choosing to repent = redeemed by blood of Jesus for Holy living in One God.

The text of Jeremiah 23 makes clear that the prophet's reference is to events that will happen in HIS time, not in some future century.

• Jer 23.1 - God expresses woe to the shepherds of Israel - the shepherds of the prophet's day
• Jer 23.2 - God promises to punish those shepherds - the shepherds of the prophet's day
• Jer 23.3 - God declares that after the punishment of the shepherds of the prophet's day, God will bring the remnant of the flock back home
• Jer 23.4 - God says God will raise up shepherds of the prophet's day whom the people will no longer fear
• Jer 23.5 - God provides additional detail about the new day that is coming - a "righteous branch" for David who will reign as a king. The result will be the saving of both Judah and Israel (Jer 23.6), the pieces of the divided kingdom of the prophet's day
• Jer 23.7-8 - God says the days are coming when people will speak of Yahweh who brought "the offspring of the house of Israel from the land of the north," a clear reference to Assyria, of the prophet's day.

Pre-existence of Jesus when the only Spiritual Being alive is One God obviously means Jesus is a voice in One God's commUnity of Love. Also plural unified God is a truly accurate description of three voices Being Unified in One True God. (Hebrew language plural is a minimum of three)

I claim that your interpretation of the pre-existence passages is not consistent with the vast majority of what Jesus said about himself, what Gospels writers, including John elsewhere in his Gospel, and other NT writers say about him. The result is a conflict we must resolve to the best of our abilities. I assume we both have done so.

Lexham English Bible (LEB) translates Greek phrase "ὃν ὑμεῖς ἐσταυρώσατε" as "whom you crucified" while NLT uses words "the man" for relative pronoun ὃν in phrase "the man you crucified". Both LEB and NLT translate ὃν in the next phrase as whom: 'whom God raised from the dead' (with NLT inserting word 'but' that is not in the Society of Biblical Literature Greek New Testament).

I contend that the lack of the word "man" in the LEB's translation of Acts 4.10 is inconsequential since in Acts 4.22-24 - that is, as part of the SAME sermon - the LEB quotes Peter as saying: “Israelite men, listen to these words! Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—23 this man, delivered up by the determined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by* nailing to a cross* through the hand of lawless men. 24 God raised ⌊him⌋ up, having brought to an end the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

The LEB says Peter called Jesus a "man," which means my original argument stands in that translation as well.

Disagree with implication in wording: "If Jesus is God, and Jesus died, then AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, God died." that Jesus is all of God (only one voice), which simply disagrees with scripture. Inside Holy human body was The Word of God spiritual portion of One God, which was/is fully God. Plural unified God includes The Father & Breath The Holy so is being more than just The Word of God (in One God's commUnity of Love). If Jesus is all of God, then who is The Father that Jesus prayed to along with who spoke from heaven, saying "This is my son in whom I am well pleased" ?

I respect your views, but the claims you make in this paragraph have no biblical basis.

We consistently disagree about most obvious meaning of many Bible verses, which includes direct expression of Jesus being "I AM" Lord God that was understood by a number of religious 'lawyers and judges', who never believed. They had Jesus put to death for Blasphemy (cursing God). Incredibly sad for the men who wanted many years of Scripture study (starting with desire to know & Love God), but whose hearts turned away from God somewhere during their studies so they did NOT believe Jesus is "I AM" Lord God. Also sad is Judas Iscarot being among the 72 humans sent out to do marvelous works of God, but choosing to be a thief resulting in the betrayal of Jesus for thirty pieces of silver (temporary stuff).

Your observations of sadness notwithstanding, your words here do not address the questions I asked, so I ask them again: Why does the Bible leave ANY room for doubt about the divinity of Jesus? If the Bible is inerrant and infallible, as I'm sure you believe it is, why are there ANY verses whose most obvious meaning is Jesus is not God?

Choice is believing assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' OR believing what the Bible says about Lord God Jesus Christ. Maintaining assumption belief is embedded in question wording "And why does the Bible NEVER directly make the claim that Jesus is God, a claim of eternal and inestimable significance?" If the direct deity claims in the Bible are True, then the assumption is false (faulty) that needs modification.

I agree that IF there are direct deity claims, then my assumption is false. However, there ARE no direct deity claims, so my assumption is true.

Corollary to assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God' is 'One through whom God does marvelous works cannot be God. Jesus being both God and human lovingly showed works God could do through human to Glorify God, followed by sending out 72 in Luke 10:1-20

The passage you cite contains NO declaration of Jesus' deity. And in the passage, the fact that the disciples do great things through (in) the name of Jesus proves that God doing things "through" Jesus does not mean those Jesus was God. [If Jesus did things through his disciples, does that mean his disciples were Jesus? Clearly not.]

Intensity of belief in assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' results in 'Jesus never claimed to be God' that contradicts Jewish legal reason for Jesus being put to death (by unbelieving religious lawyers and judges with combined study numbering hundreds of years).

We've been down THIS road many times before. That the lawyers and judges believed Jesus claimed to be God does NOT mean they were CORRECT!

• When the Pharisees claimed Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan (Matthew 12.24), were they right?
• When other Pharisees said Jesus was not from God because he did not observe the Sabbath (John 9.16), were they right?

Prayfully pondering Luke 22:66-71 scene helped me realize Jesus speaking "You say that I am" would truthfully declare Jesus is "I AM" Lord God as Jesus could not say "I Am" without human ears & hearts recognizing Jesus as Lord God in human flesh. Jesus was always Truthful (could not lie).

The text simply does not say that. You're reading your faith claims into the text.

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Does Jesus praying 'believe in me' to The Father (Lord YHWH God) truthfully contradict "Since Jesus did not refer to himself ..." ?

Where did you read that Jesus prayed to his Father, YHWH, and asked Him "believe in me" ???

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Plural unified God includes The Father & Breath The Holy so is being more than just The Word of God (in One God's commUnity of Love). If Jesus is all of God, then who is The Father that Jesus prayed to along with who spoke from heaven, saying "This is my son in whom I am well pleased" ?

There is NO unified God spoken of in the Bible, nor is there a "One God's commUnity of Love" spoken of in the Bible ....your question thus makes absolutely no sense. Jesus' Father, the One Who alone is true God, spoke from heaven and stated about the man Jesus that this man Jesus was His Son in whom He was well pleased, Truth can hardly get any more simple ...

[Deleted User]

@Bill_Coley Where in that post-resurrection scene with Mary do you find ANY evidence that Jesus believed himself to be God?

Nowhere ... in this as in any other scene.

Isn't the clear, unambiguous meaning of his words to her that he believes he and the disciples have the same God/Father, and that that he himself is NOT that God/Father?

That is the clear meaning of Jesus' words as recorded in the gospel record.

Perhaps some can't see what is as clear as the nose on a face because of a theological pandemic mask in cooperation with theological glasses? 😉

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Intensity of belief in assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.'

Nothing to be assumed there ... simple plain language and logic mandates (!!) such conclusion.

It is your assumption of "Jesus is God" which contradicts plain statements of Scripture which tell that God cannot die and which tell that Jesus did die.

results in 'Jesus never claimed to be God' that contradicts Jewish legal reason for Jesus being put to death (by unbelieving religious lawyers and judges with combined study numbering hundreds of years).

The Jewish leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy against God because he claimed to be the Messiah, that man whom God had promised to send. Their blasphemy charge had to do with the discrepancy they saw between Jesus words and works and their own expectations of what that man, the Messiah sent from God, should be like.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Plural unified God includes The Father & Breath The Holy so is being more than just The Word of God (in One God's commUnity of Love). 

@Wolfgang There is NO unified God spoken of in the Bible, nor is there a "One God's commUnity of Love" spoken of in the Bible 

Faith assertion "There is NO unified God spoken of in the Bible, ..." simply agrees with belief assumption 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." plus declares One God wrongly inspired 2,310 plural Elohim uses in the Old Covenant (with relatively few singular Elohe uses) for God. Plural unified God reflects One True God inspired a mixture of plural & singular words about One True God, which includes Deuteronomy 6:4

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus  If Jesus is all of God, then who is The Father that Jesus prayed to along with who spoke from heaven, saying "This is my son in whom I am well pleased" ?

@Wolfgang ....your question thus makes absolutely no sense. Jesus' Father, the One Who alone is true God, spoke from heaven and stated about the man Jesus that this man Jesus was His Son in whom He was well pleased, Truth can hardly get any more simple ...

Noticed "the man" qualification does not appear in Bible text. Every son inherits from their Father: What kind of Spirit is inside Jesus ?

And behold, there was a voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:17 (LEB)

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!” And when the disciples heard this, they fell down on their faces and were extremely frightened. And Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up and do not be afraid.” And when they lifted up their eyes they saw no one except him—Jesus alone. Matthew 17:5-6 (LEB)

And a cloud came, overshadowing them, and a voice came from the cloud, “This is my beloved Son. Listen to him!” Mark 9:7 (LEB)

Now it happened that when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized, and while he was praying, heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” Luke 3:21-22 (LEB)

And a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him!” Luke 9:35 (LEB)

Simple Truth: God cannot sin. Jesus did not sin. Jesus is God.

@Wolfgang Perhaps some can't see what is as clear as the nose on a face because of a theological pandemic mask in cooperation with theological glasses? 😉

Reflective insight appreciated. A number of Sanhedrin religious lawyers and judges chose theological blindness after many years of study so they never believed Jesus is Lord YHWH God. Reaction to hearing Jesus say "I AM" (in phrase "You say that I am") was put Jesus to death: Luke 22:66-71

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Faith assertion "There is NO unified God spoken of in the Bible, ..." simply agrees with belief assumption 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." plus declares One God wrongly inspired 2,310 plural Elohim uses in the Old Covenant (with relatively few singular Elohe uses) for God. Plural unified God reflects One True God inspired a mixture of plural & singular words about One True God, which includes Deuteronomy 6:4

You should just keep your "faith assertions" to yourself ... and certainly not be deceived by them into falsely claiming that God wrongly inspired places where the word Elohim is used in the OT Scriptures.

[Deleted User]

@Wolfgang ....your question thus makes absolutely no sense. Jesus' Father, the One Who alone is true God, spoke from heaven and stated about the man Jesus that this man Jesus was His Son in whom He was well pleased, Truth can hardly get any more simple ...

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Noticed "the man" qualification does not appear in Bible text. Every son inherits from their Father: What kind of Spirit is inside Jesus ?

So then, when you have a human as a father and his son inherits being a human, you then have TWO HUMANS (one man, the Father, and another man, his son).

With your statement above when you have God as a father and his son inherits being God, you then have TWO GODS (one God, the Father, and another God, his son).

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Noticed "the man" qualification does not appear in Bible text. Every son inherits from their Father: What kind of Spirit is inside Jesus ?

@Wolfgang So then, when you have a human as a father and his son inherits being a human, you then have TWO HUMANS (one man, the Father, and another man, his son).

With your statement above when you have God as a father and his son inherits being God, you then have TWO GODS (one God, the Father, and another God, his son).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, was this simple enough to understand?

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Wonder about gardening scenario in the time of Jesus: a Jewish farmer wanted some mustard in garden while knowing the plant would become big (~12 feet tall) so intentionally sowed seed in a property corner. Resulting growth should have a quarter or less of the mustard plant over the farmer's property while vast majority of plant grew over neighboring Jewish land. This farmer would not discuss plant relocation with neighbors (nor pay for the use of their land for personal mustard growth), which resulted in lawsuit before Jewish religious 'lawyers and judges'.

Rhetorical question: from litigating many disputes, what would Jewish religious 'lawyers and judges' have known about farming & gardening ?

@Bill_Coley It doesn't really matter whether the lawyers and judges knew about farming and gardening. What matters is whether there were seeds smaller than mustard seeds at the time Jesus made his declaration. The answer is there was.

Disagree about farming & gardening knowledge due to a number of religious lawyers and judges actively seeking anything to discredit Jesus.

And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or by what parable can we present it? It is like a mustard seed that when sown on the ground, although it is the smallest of all the seeds that are on the ground, but when it is sown it grows up and becomes the largest of all the garden herbs, and sends out large branches so that the birds of the sky are able to nest in its shade.” Mark 4:30-32 (LEB)

@Bill_Coley In Jesus' time, neither were mustard seeds "the smallest of all seeds that (were) on the ground."

Please be specific: name a seed "sown on the ground" by humans for agricultural use during time of Jesus that is smaller than a mustard seed.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Article refers to modern knowledge of seed sizes while lacking documentation about known seed sizes when Jesus spoke. Also article dismisses story context as 'a gambit' while coming to the same agricultural use conclusion.

@Bill_Coley If, as you claim, Jesus were God, wouldn't he have known about all seeds, including those smaller than mustard seeds? Or do you claim Jesus as God was not as omniscient as we typically claim God to be?

Did God The Father err in parable wording for Jesus to speak ? But Jesus cried out and said, “The one who believes in me does not believe in me, but in the one who sent me, and the one who sees me sees the one who sent me. I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So the things that I say, just as the Father said to me, thus I say.” John 12:44-50 (LEB)

Jesus knowing 'God's commandment is eternal life' is consistent with Jesus being God, who was having God's Glory and Love before creation.

@Bill_Coley ... The text says what it says. ...

Concur One True God inspired original language wording (albeit without chapter and verse numbering). If belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' is faulty, that is Jesus is God (literally consistent with "I and The Father are One"), curious how many clearly comments would change to reflect belief change about The Father, Jesus, and Breath the Holy eternally being One True God ?

Observation: our comments about text snippets clearly communicates belief assumptions (also true of every translation since humans <> robots).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How can '1) his Father, the one Jesus calls "the only true God," and 2) himself, whom he calls "Jesus Christ."' be 'one, just as we are one' ?

@Bill_Coley I have addressed this in previous posts.

@Bill_Coley What does Jesus mean when he claims that he and God are "one"? Jesus tells us what he means in his prayer found in John 17. (emphasis added)

@Bill_Coley 22 “I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. 23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me. 24 Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began! 

@Bill_Coley 25 “O righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me. 26 I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.” 

@Bill_Coley Notice:

* In v.22 Jesus prays that his disciples will be "one" as he and God are "one." So whatever oneness Jesus believes he has with God MUST be possible for his disciples with each other. That fact rules out that his being "one" with God means he thinks he IS God.

* In v.23, Jesus gives a first indication of what such oneness means: He wants to be "in" his disciples, while God is "in" him.

* Also in v.23, Jesus prays that his disciples will experience "perfect unity." THAT'S what Jesus means by his disciples' being "one" as he and God are "one." Oneness is a state of relational and spiritual intimacy... i.e. "perfect unity."

The verb "may be" in verse 22 is a subjunctive, which is conditional. In John 17:20 is the condition for experiencing verse 22: believe in me, Jesus (OR be believing to express noun & verbal aspects of believe participle in present tense: continous action in present time).

John 17:20-26 (LEB) “And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one—I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me. “Father, those whom you have given to me—I want that those also may be with me where I am, in order that they may see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. Righteous Father, although the world does not know you, yet I have known you, and these men have come to know that you sent me. And I made known to them your name, and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I may be in them.”

The child in me enjoys cuddling in One God's commUnity of Love (where One God always was, is, and will be while my human spirit is connected with God's Holy Loving presence when my choice to love most is God, but Holy presence quietly leaves when my thoughts/actions focus on sin).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is not God, how can any human believing in Jesus not violate the most important commandment ? (not all of human is Loving God first)

@Bill_Coley To believe in Jesus in no way violates said commandment. Of course that depends on what one means by "believing" in him. I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Savior, the one through whom God offered me and the world life abundant and eternal. Jesus doesn't have to be God - in fact, CANNOT be God - in order to be the one through whom God made such an offer.

Believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior while believing Jesus is distinct from God shows belief in God lacks belief in Jesus => commandment violated. "Jesus doesn't have to be God - in fact, CANNOT be God" is consistent with belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.'

@Bill_Coley Jesus makes a distinction between himself and God yet again near the end of the John 17 prayer: "O righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me." (John 17.25) So Jesus knows God even though the world doesn't, and the disciples know that God sent Jesus. Another clear distinction.

Clearly communicates belief in two distinct deities with one entity being the way to the other. To me is simplier to believe Jesus is Lord God (so loving Jesus first is loving One True God first, which also includes loving The Father and Breath The Holy as One God), fulfills commandment.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus And when day came, the council of elders of the people gathered, both chief priests and scribes, and they led him away to their Sanhedrin, saying, “If you are the Christ, tell us!” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will never believe, and if I ask you, you will never answer! But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” So they all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.” And they said, “Why do we have need of further testimony? For we ourselves have heard it from his mouth!” Luke 22:66-71 (LEB) includes insight that direct deity declaration does not guarantee belief Jesus is Lord God (as is God the Father & Breath the Holy). Self identification of Jesus is Lord God. Jesus truthfully saying "I AM" (in phrase 'You say that I am.') was recognized by Sanhedrin religious 'lawyers and judges' as legal reason for Jesus to die.

@Bill_Coley We've been down this road multiple times.

@Bill_Coley At NO TIME in his engagement with the Sanhedrin does Jesus claim to be God. He claims to be the "Son of Man," and, indirectly, the "Messiah" or "Christ," but he does NOT claim to be God.

Faith assertion "At NO TIME in his engagement with the Sanhedrin does Jesus claim to be God." is consistent with belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' while clearly unable to explain Jewish legal motivation for having Jesus put to death (for what Jesus said).

@Bill_Coley  [FOR ACCURACY'S SAKE I MUST NOTE: You chose, without disclaimer or explanation, to quote from the LEB, whose translation of that passage is very much at odds with other translations, almost all of which report that Jesus told the priests and scribes that they would see the "Son of Man," NOT the "Son of God," seated at the right hand of the power of God.]

My reply on October 5 included: [LEB Lk22.69 "but from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God."]

@Bill_Coley In point of fact there are AND WERE IN JESUS' DAY seeds much smaller than mustard seeds (see HERE, for examples)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Article refers to modern knowledge of seed sizes while lacking documentation about known seed sizes when Jesus spoke. Also article dismisses story context as 'a gambit' while coming to the same agricultural use conclusion. Article writer would like Lexham English Bible (LEB) translation:

And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or by what parable can we present it? It is like a mustard seed that when sown on the ground, although it is the smallest of all the seeds that are on the ground, but when it is sown it grows up and becomes the largest of all the garden herbs, and sends out large branches so that the birds of the sky are able to nest in its shade.” Mark 4:30-32 (LEB)

Comparing Lexham English Bible (LEB) with original languages finds closer correlation to text inspired by One True God (similar literal translation style as Authorized Version). Smallest seed article author is correct about NLT lacking repetition "in the ground" with "the smallest of all seeds" in Mark 4:30-32 (NLT) Jesus said, “How can I describe the Kingdom of God? What story should I use to illustrate it? It is like a mustard seed planted in the ground. It is the smallest of all seeds, but it becomes the largest of all garden plants; it grows long branches, and birds can make nests in its shade.”

FYI: free Logos 8 Basic includes use of two Bibles: Authorized Version (KJV 1900) and LEB (2012) with Reverse Interlinear tagging.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus And he went away and proceeded, according to his custom, to the Mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him. And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not enter into temptation.” And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw and knelt down and began to pray, saying, “Father, if you are willing, take away this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.” ⟦And an angel from heaven appeared to him, strengthening him. And being in anguish, he began praying more fervently and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down to the ground.⟧ And when he got up from the prayer and came to the disciples, he found them sleeping from sorrow, and he said to them, “Why are you sleeping? Get up and pray that you will not enter into temptation!” Luke 22:39-46 (LEB) Thankful for visual filter highlighting in Logos so can "see" Greek verbal usage.

@Bill_Coley I asked whether Jesus was "demanding" of God in his Gethsemane prayer. In this response, I don't see your answer to that question.

Bolded words are imperative (demanding) verbs: Pray, take, be done, pray (easier to "see" range of Greek verbal usage in Logos Bible Software)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Modern medical term is hematidrosis, blood sweat => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematidrosis (biological composition is blood in sweat: little blood changes color of sweat while lots of blood changes sweat fluid consistency). In the Jewish calendar, the 14th of Nisan night always has a full moon so suspect more than a little bood was in sweat of Jesus to match Luke's description during moonlight prayer on the Mount of Olives.

@Bill_Coley Possible medical diagnoses don't change the content of the text, which says Jesus' sweat "fell like great drops of blood," which in context is clearly a description of the consistency and fall to the ground of his sweat, not its biological consistency. We've been down THIS road in the past, as well. For some reason, your responses to me never address the text of the verse. When Luke says of Jesus that "his sweat fell to the ground like great drops of blood," (Luke 22.44, NLT) does he describe the sweat's fall or the sweat's composition?

NLT translation style is more dynamic than LEB. NLT modified Luke 22:44 word order so "fell" is before "like" while LEB is literally closer to Greek description written by Luke about sweat composition changing to become visibly red (in the moonlight) followed by falling to the ground.

Luke 22:44 (LEB) And being in anguish, he began praying more fervently and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down to the ground.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Every human chooses what to believe & love first. Believing assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' is reflected by assertion "pre-existence theme MUST mean something other than that he thought himself to be God." that clearly contradicts Jesus having God's Glory and Love when the only living Spiritual Being was One God. Hence Jesus knows He is Lord God, who is one in The Father Lord God.

@Bill_Coley I don't know about the choices of "every human being." I know I choose to believe what Jesus says about himself as the first among several sources of information available in the Gospels. In my view, Jesus' clear claim is that he is NOT God. The pre-existence sayings, which reside only in John among the Gospels, remain unclear to me.

Truly what is humility ? How confidently does Jesus know who He is so He has no need to boast ? Yet wind and seas obey His voice as do demons. Human belief is the result of many thoughts. Faith assertion " Jesus' clear claim is that he is NOT God." is consistent with belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' that clearly does not want to recognize Jesus is Lord God (in a variety of expressions: e.g. Daniel 7:13-14 prophecy fulfillment = "Son of Man", many "I AM' self identifications as Lord God with characteristics that only One True God was/is/will be).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Actually my worship answer did engage specific content. Jesus worships The Father as Lord God along with Jesus receiving worship as Lord God.

@Bill_Coley The text in question here says NOTHING about Jesus' receiving worship - not as "Lord God;" not as ANY kind of form of God. The man calls him only "good teacher."

Puzzling "text in question" context since my worship answer relates to two post-resurrection encounters with Jesus by Mary & Thomas in John 20.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Holy human body had blood sacrifice for sin so ascending purpose is consistent with eternal redemption in Hebrew 9:6-28 (LEB) 

@Bill_Coley The Hebrew 9 passage that you cited does not address the question I asked - and in fact, presents additional assertions of the distinction between God and Jesus (Heb 6.14,24-25) - so I ask it again: If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he tell his disciples that he was ascending to the one who was his (and their) God?

Puzzled by question being asked again as Hebrews 9 passage does address ascension purpose of offering blood in the heavenly holy of holies. Actually passage could be expanded to include much more of Hebrews. Also puzzled by 24-25 reference since Hebrews 6 has 20 verses.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Many Biblical encounters hearing/seeing Angels and God begin with command: "Be not afraid!" (noticeably missing from post-resurrection scene)

@Bill_Coley The passages you quoted in your response to my questions about the resurrected Jesus' word to Mary of his ascension to the one who was his and his disciples' God/Father did not address the questions I asked so I ask them again: Where in that post-resurrection scene with Mary do you find ANY evidence that Jesus believed himself to be God? Isn't the clear, unambiguous meaning of his words to her that he believes he and the disciples have the same God/Father, and that that he himself is NOT that God/Father?

Wording of questions embed belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' along with desire for arrogant expression by Jesus Christ, who is truly humble while being Lord God's King of Righteousness (sharing YHWH name with God The Father) and High Priest.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus “Look, days are coming,” declares Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘Yahweh is our righteousness.’ Jeremiah 23:5-6 (LEB) has wording that obviously disagrees with 'not a prophetic word about a "King" from David's line who will be born in another 550-600 years'. Perhaps Jeremiah 23:5-6 should be added to your pre-existence verse list with 1 John 2:1 'Jesus Christ the righteous one' (one added in LEB) fulfillment (Jesus Christ = YHWH the Righteous). English translation ‘Yahweh is our righteousness.’ is a combination of YHWH (Lord God) & Tzidkenu (our righteousness). Holy human body of Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, which enables God's Righteousness to be experienced by sinners choosing to repent = redeemed by blood of Jesus for Holy living in One God.

@Bill_Coley The text of Jeremiah 23 makes clear that the prophet's reference is to events that will happen in HIS time, not in some future century.

* Jer 23.1 - God expresses woe to the shepherds of Israel - the shepherds of the prophet's day

* Jer 23.2 - God promises to punish those shepherds - the shepherds of the prophet's day

* Jer 23.3 - God declares that after the punishment of the shepherds of the prophet's day, God will bring the remnant of the flock back home

* Jer 23.4 - God says God will raise up shepherds of the prophet's day whom the people will no longer fear

* Jer 23.5 - God provides additional detail about the new day that is coming - a "righteous branch" for David who will reign as a king. The result will be the saving of both Judah and Israel (Jer 23.6), the pieces of the divided kingdom of the prophet's day

* Jer 23.7-8 - God says the days are coming when people will speak of Yahweh who brought "the offspring of the house of Israel from the land of the north," a clear reference to Assyria, of the prophet's day.

“Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the flock of my pasture,” declares Yahweh. Therefore thus says Yahweh, the God of Israel concerning the shepherds who shepherd my people, “You yourselves have scattered my flock, and you have driven them away, and you do not attend to them. Look, I will punish you for the evil of your deeds,” declares Yahweh. “Then I myself will gather together the remnant of my flock from all the lands where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their grazing place, and they will be fruitful, and they will become numerous. And I will raise up over them shepherds, and they will shepherd them, and they will no longer fear, and they will not be dismayed, and they will not be missing,” declares Yahweh. Jeremiah 23:1-4 (LEB) shows translation change to future tense "will" without any words indicating how long: e.g. between punishment and gathering remnant.

Assertion "of the prophet's day" provides a classic eisegesis example. How long had the first woe in Jeremiah 23:1 been happening ? The Northern Kingdom of Israel had already been scattered. Assyria assertion contradicts Jeremiah 50:17-18

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Pre-existence of Jesus when the only Spiritual Being alive is One God obviously means Jesus is a voice in One God's commUnity of Love. Also plural unified God is a truly accurate description of three voices Being Unified in One True God. (Hebrew language plural is a minimum of three)

@Bill_Coley I claim that your interpretation of the pre-existence passages is not consistent with the vast majority of what Jesus said about himself, what Gospels writers, including John elsewhere in his Gospel, and other NT writers say about him. The result is a conflict we must resolve to the best of our abilities. I assume we both have done so.

Our claims are consistent with our belief assumptions about One God. Faith assertion "of the prophet's day" eisegesis provides conflict resolution to many prophecies so belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God'. does not appear to be proven wrong. No child "of the prophet's day" during the time of Isaiah truly fits the description of Isaiah 9:1-7 that Jesus declared fulfilled in Matthew 4:12-17

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Lexham English Bible (LEB) translates Greek phrase "ὃν ὑμεῖς ἐσταυρώσατε" as "whom you crucified" while NLT uses words "the man" for relative pronoun ὃν in phrase "the man you crucified". Both LEB and NLT translate ὃν in the next phrase as whom: 'whom God raised from the dead' (with NLT inserting word 'but' that is not in the Society of Biblical Literature Greek New Testament).

@Bill_Coley I contend that the lack of the word "man" in the LEB's translation of Acts 4.10 is inconsequential since in Acts 4.22-24 - that is, as part of the SAME sermon - the LEB quotes Peter as saying: “Israelite men, listen to these words! Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—23 this man, delivered up by the determined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by* nailing to a cross* through the hand of lawless men. 24 God raised ⌊him⌋ up, having brought to an end the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

@Bill_Coley The LEB says Peter called Jesus a "man," which means my original argument stands in that translation as well.

Another conflict resolution eisegesis example is "man" always meaning "NOT God", consistent with belief assumption: '... Jesus cannot be God.'

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Disagree with implication in wording: "If Jesus is God, and Jesus died, then AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, God died." that Jesus is all of God (only one voice), which simply disagrees with scripture. Inside Holy human body was The Word of God spiritual portion of One God, which was/is fully God. Plural unified God includes The Father & Breath The Holy so is being more than just The Word of God (in One God's commUnity of Love). If Jesus is all of God, then who is The Father that Jesus prayed to along with who spoke from heaven, saying "This is my son in whom I am well pleased" ?

@Bill_Coley I respect your views, but the claims you make in this paragraph have no biblical basis.

Faith assertion "the claims you make in this paragraph have no biblical basis" is consistent with belief assumption: '... Jesus cannot be God.'

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Intensity of belief in assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' results in 'Jesus never claimed to be God' that contradicts Jewish legal reason for Jesus being put to death (by unbelieving religious lawyers and judges with combined study numbering hundreds of years).

@Bill_Coley We've been down THIS road many times before. That the lawyers and judges believed Jesus claimed to be God does NOT mean they were CORRECT!

* When the Pharisees claimed Jesus cast out demons by the power of Satan (Matthew 12.24), were they right?

* When other Pharisees said Jesus was not from God because he did not observe the Sabbath (John 9.16), were they right?

If "the lawyers and judges believed Jesus claimed to be God" they would have worshipped Jesus as Lord God. Humanly these religious lawyers and judges proved they correctly heard the Truthful "I AM" Lord God identity spoken by Jesus while choosing NOT to believe in Jesus as Lord God. Considering unbelief of religious lawyers and judges, am amazed they understood deity claims by Jesus, giving them legal reason for Jesus to die.

Humans can hear/know the truth and choose evil (with heart deceitful & desparately wicked) as shown in Matthew 12:22-32 and John 9:13-34

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Prayfully pondering Luke 22:66-71 scene helped me realize Jesus speaking "You say that I am" would truthfully declare Jesus is "I AM" Lord God as Jesus could not say "I Am" without human ears & hearts recognizing Jesus as Lord God in human flesh. Jesus was always Truthful (could not lie).

@Bill_Coley The text simply does not say that. You're reading your faith claims into the text.

And when day came, the council of elders of the people gathered, both chief priests and scribes, and they led him away to their Sanhedrin, saying, “If you are the Christ, tell us!” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will never believe, and if I ask you, you will never answer! But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” So they all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.” And they said, “Why do we have need of further testimony? For we ourselves have heard it from his mouth!” Luke 22:66-71 (LEB) says last two words spoken by Jesus to the Sanhedrin were "I AM" that is really heart breaking because of willful refusal to believe Jesus is Lord God. Years of intensely studying Scripture and outward righteousness had secret sins inside: Matthew 23:25-26 hypocrites, Luke 11:37-41 fools (spoken by Lord God Jesus in Love)

Keep Smiling 😊

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Faith assertion "There is NO unified God spoken of in the Bible, ..." simply agrees with belief assumption 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." plus declares One God wrongly inspired 2,310 plural Elohim uses in the Old Covenant (with relatively few singular Elohe uses) for God. Plural unified God reflects One True God inspired a mixture of plural & singular words about One True God, which includes Deuteronomy 6:4

@Wolfgang You should just keep your "faith assertions" to yourself ... and certainly not be deceived by them into falsely claiming that God wrongly inspired places where the word Elohim is used in the OT Scriptures.

What is truly Plural (Elohim) in One God ?

“Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. Deuteronomy 6:4 (LEB) where 'our God' translates Plural Elohim (God) of us (plural suffix) אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ

'Thus says Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god besides me.' Isaiah 44:6 (LEB) translates אֱלֹהִֽים (plural) as god with singular pronoun (another plural unified God description).

@Wolfgang ....your question thus makes absolutely no sense. Jesus' Father, the One Who alone is true God, spoke from heaven and stated about the man Jesus that this man Jesus was His Son in whom He was well pleased, Truth can hardly get any more simple ...

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Noticed "the man" qualification does not appear in Bible text. Every son inherits from their Father: What kind of Spirit is inside Jesus ?

@Wolfgang So then, when you have a human as a father and his son inherits being a human, you then have TWO HUMANS (one man, the Father, and another man, his son).

Concur human father and son are "TWO HUMANS" (each one is accountable to One True God for their choices what to love most: do & say)

@Wolfgang With your statement above when you have God as a father and his son inherits being God, you then have TWO GODS (one God, the Father, and another God, his son).

"TWO GODS" simply assumes Son of God spiritual inheritance became completely distinct like God's design for humans. One True God's Spirit cannot be divided (while is in more than one place at the same time). Before creating out of nothing, when One God was the only Spiritual Being alive, Jesus was having God's Glory (John 17:5) and experiencing God the Father's Love (John 17:24). Humans have earliest experience someitme after conception, yet Jesus has experiences that predate creation, which is consistent with description of God: "who was, who is, and who is coming". Holy birth of Jesus is/was unique in enabling The Word of God portion of One True God's Spirit to leave heavan (above) to dwell inside a human body on the earth (below). Truly Jesus said "I and The Father are One." that was understood by original Jewish audience as One in Deuteronomy 6:4, which did not mesh with their belief that all human flesh is sinful (Psalm 14) so Jesus ought to die for blasphemy (cursing God).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus We consistently disagree about most obvious meaning of many Bible verses, which includes direct expression of Jesus being "I AM" Lord God that was understood by a number of religious 'lawyers and judges', who never believed. They had Jesus put to death for Blasphemy (cursing God). Incredibly sad for the men who wanted many years of Scripture study (starting with desire to know & Love God), but whose hearts turned away from God somewhere during their studies so they did NOT believe Jesus is "I AM" Lord God. Also sad is Judas Iscarot being among the 72 humans sent out to do marvelous works of God, but choosing to be a thief resulting in the betrayal of Jesus for thirty pieces of silver (temporary stuff).

@Bill_Coley Your observations of sadness notwithstanding, your words here do not address the questions I asked, so I ask them again: Why does the Bible leave ANY room for doubt about the divinity of Jesus? If the Bible is inerrant and infallible, as I'm sure you believe it is, why are there ANY verses whose most obvious meaning is Jesus is not God?

Our belief assumptions have vastly different numerical answers for 'why are there ANY verses whose most obvious meaning is Jesus is not God?' (none differs from many). To me, all the Bible declares One True God's commUnity of Love has plural voices: The Will (Father), The Word (Son), Breath The Holy while always being One Spiritually. Appreciate grieving intenstiy in Thomas who refused to believe the truth spoken by many about Jesus being resurrected: 'Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who was called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and put my finger into the mark of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will never believe!” And after eight days his disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Although the doors had been shut, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said, “Peace to you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Place your finger here and see my hands, and place your hand and put it into my side. And do not be unbelieving, but believing!” Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”' John 20:24-29 (LEB) I believe Jesus is My Lord and My God.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Choice is believing assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' OR believing what the Bible says about Lord God Jesus Christ. Maintaining assumption belief is embedded in question wording "And why does the Bible NEVER directly make the claim that Jesus is God, a claim of eternal and inestimable significance?" If the direct deity claims in the Bible are True, then the assumption is false (faulty) that needs modification.

@Bill_Coley I agree that IF there are direct deity claims, then my assumption is false. However, there ARE no direct deity claims, so my assumption is true.

Not believing direct diety claims does not make belief assumption 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God' valid. Pre-existence question: How can Jesus not be God when He existed when the only Spiritual Being in existence was One True God ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Corollary to assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God' is 'One through whom God does marvelous works cannot be God. Jesus being both God and human lovingly showed works God could do through human to Glorify God, followed by sending out 72 in Luke 10:1-20

@Bill_Coley The passage you cite contains NO declaration of Jesus' deity. And in the passage, the fact that the disciples do great things through (in) the name of Jesus proves that God doing things "through" Jesus does not mean those Jesus was God. [If Jesus did things through his disciples, does that mean his disciples were Jesus? Clearly not.]

If Jesus is not God, why did Jesus send out the 72 ? (could have said 'The Father is sending ...' instead of 'I am sending ...')

If Jesus is not God, why did demons obey the name of Jesus as experienced by the 72 ? (Loving rebuke by Jesus to Rejoice about names in heaven)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Wolfgang You should just keep your "faith assertions" to yourself ... and certainly not be deceived by them into falsely claiming that God wrongly inspired places where the word Elohim is used in the OT Scriptures.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What is truly Plural (Elohim) in One God ?

Nothing!

How can Jesus not be God when He existed when the only Spiritual Being in existence was One True God ?

He did not exist as a living being or living person at the time you have in mind. The error is in your assumption that he did.

If Jesus is not God, why did Jesus send out the 72 ? (could have said 'The Father is sending ...' instead of 'I am sending ...')

Because that is what he did in obeying God's (his Father's) will and plan. Your assumptions of what he according to your fantasy could have said are totally beside the point.

If Jesus is not God, why did demons obey the name of Jesus as experienced by the 72 ? (Loving rebuke by Jesus to Rejoice about names in heaven)

Because those folks afflicted with these demons heard and believed/obeyed the message, and because these disciples acted under the authority of their master Jesus, who had been given such authority by God, his Father. Here, your assumption about Jesus' further words to them after they returned to him and reported what happened, is also beside the point.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Faith assertion "There is NO unified God spoken of in the Bible, ..." simply agrees with belief assumption 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." plus declares One God wrongly inspired 2,310 plural Elohim uses in the Old Covenant (with relatively few singular Elohe uses) for God. Plural unified God reflects One True God inspired a mixture of plural & singular words about One True God, which includes Deuteronomy 6:4

@Wolfgang You should just keep your "faith assertions" to yourself ... and certainly not be deceived by them into falsely claiming that God wrongly inspired places where the word Elohim is used in the OT Scriptures.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What is truly Plural (Elohim) in One God ?

@Wolfgang Nothing!

Faith idea "Nothing!" simply repeats belief assumption 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." plus repeats your simple implication that One True God wrongly inspired 2,310 plural Elohim uses in the Old Covenant with 51 singular Elohe uses for God (ratio about 45 to 1). Thankful for Morph Search analysis using Logos/Verbum Bible software of the Lexham Hebrew Bible => root:אֱלֹהִים INTERSECTS <Person God> Caveat: have not checked validity of <Person God> tagging for the 2,362 search results so applicable counts may be somewhat less.

Discoursing about theological ideas necessarily includes belief assumptions, which substantially impact scripture interpretation.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How can Jesus not be God when He existed when the only Spiritual Being in existence was One True God ?

@Wolfgang He did not exist as a living being or living person at the time you have in mind. The error is in your assumption that he did.

Are words of Jesus Truthful ? 'And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed.' John 17:5 (LEB) & '“Father, those whom you have given to me—I want that those also may be with me where I am, in order that they may see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.' John 17:24 (LEB) My belief assumption is Jesus literally telling the Truth.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is not God, why did Jesus send out the 72 ? (could have said 'The Father is sending ...' instead of 'I am sending ...')

@Wolfgang Because that is what he did in obeying God's (his Father's) will and plan. Your assumptions of what he according to your fantasy could have said are totally beside the point.

Concur Jesus obeyed God The Father's will to send out 72 in the name of Jesus to do God's work. The name Jesus, Yeshua, means YHWH salvation.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is not God, why did demons obey the name of Jesus as experienced by the 72 ? (Loving rebuke by Jesus to Rejoice about names in heaven)

@Wolfgang Because those folks afflicted with these demons heard and believed/obeyed the message, and because these disciples acted under the authority of their master Jesus, who had been given such authority by God, his Father. Here, your assumption about Jesus' further words to them after they returned to him and reported what happened, is also beside the point.

Who is Jesus that demons obey humans sent by God in the name of Jesus ?

And the seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” So he said to them, “I saw Satan falling like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you the authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will ever harm you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are inscribed in heaven.” At that same time he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to young children. Yes, Father, for this was pleasing before you. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wants to reveal him.” Luke 10:17-22 (LEB)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Faith idea "Nothing!" simply repeats belief assumption 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." plus repeats your simple implication that One True God wrongly inspired 2,310 plural Elohim uses in the Old Covenant with 51 singular Elohe uses for God (ratio about 45 to 1). Thankful for Morph Search analysis using Logos/Verbum Bible software of the Lexham Hebrew Bible => root:אֱלֹהִים INTERSECTS <Person God> Caveat: have not checked validity of <Person God> tagging for the 2,362 search results so applicable counts may be somewhat less.

I do NOT at all imply that God wrongly inspired uses of Elohim ... I rather declare that YOU wrongly interpret the uses of Elohim and thus come up with your false faith assumption.

Your fancy logos morph search queries do NOT show that God is "plural Being" or "single group of plural Beings". A knowledge of Hebrew language and its use / usage of plural forms of words for singular is needed.

By the way, all translators of English Bibles seem to have had the understanding that the plural Hebrew word Elohim should be correctly understood and be thus translated by the singular English word God when referring to the true God and be translated by the plural English word gods when referring to other plural gods

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, a little assistance for your considerations in an attempt to arrive at a correct understanding of the Hebrew term Elohim, quoted from an article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#With_singular_verb

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Elohim, when meaning the God of Israel, is mostly grammatically singular, and is commonly translated as "God", and capitalised. For example, in Genesis 1:26, it is written: "Then Elohim (translated as God) said (singular verb), 'Let us (plural) make (plural verb) man in our (plural) image, after our (plural) likeness'". Wilhelm Gesenius and other Hebrew grammarians traditionally described this as the pluralis excellentiae (plural of excellence), which is similar to the pluralis majestatis (plural of majesty, or "Royal we").[27]

Gesenius comments that the singular Hebrew term Elohim is to be distinguished from elohim used to refer to plural gods, and remarks that:

The supposition that אֱלֹהִים (elohim) is to be regarded as merely a remnant of earlier polytheistic views (i.e. as originally only a numerical plural) is at least highly improbable, and, moreover, would not explain the analogous plurals (see below). That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in אֱלֹהִים (whenever it denotes one God), is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute (cf. §132h), e.g. אֱלֹהִים צַדִּיק Psalms 7:10, &c. Hence אֱלֹהִים may have been used originally not only as a numerical but also as an abstract plural (corresponding to the Latin numen, and our Godhead), and, like other abstracts of the same kind, have been transferred to a concrete single god (even of the heathen).

To the same class (and probably formed on the analogy of אֱלֹהִים) belong the plurals קְדשִׁים (kadoshim), meaning the Most Holy (only of Yahweh, Hosea 12:1, Proverbs 9:10, 30:3 – cf. אֱלֹהִים קְדשִׁים elohiym kadoshim in Joshua 24:19 and the singular Aramaic עֶלְיוֹנִין the Most High, Daniel 7:18, 7:22, 7:25); and probably תְּרָפִים (teraphim) (usually taken in the sense of penates), the image of a god, used especially for obtaining oracles. Certainly in 1 Samuel 19:13, 19:16 only one image is intended; in most other places a single image may be intended; in Zechariah 10:2 alone is it most naturally taken as a numerical plural.

— Gesenius, Wilhelm (1910). "124. The Various Uses of the Plural-form" . In Kautzsch, Emil (ed.). Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar. Translated by Cowley, Arthur Ernest (2nd, Revised and enlarged ed.). Oxford University Press. p. 399 – via Wikisource.

There are a number of notable exceptions to the rule that Elohim is treated as singular when referring to the God of Israel, including Genesis 20:13, Genesis 35:7, 2 Samuel 7:23 and Psalms 58:11, and notably the epithet of the "Living God" (Deuteronomy 5:26 etc.), which is constructed with the plural adjective, Elohim ḥayyim (אלהים חיים) but still takes singular verbs.

In the Septuagint and New Testament translations, Elohim has the singular ὁ θεός even in these cases, and modern translations follow suit in giving "God" in the singular. The Samaritan Torah has edited out some of these exceptions.[28]

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As I had mentioned before, there is nothing plural in the true God, the God of the Bible .... no plurality of anything, rather HE is ONE SINGULAR PERSON/BEING.

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

Disagree about farming & gardening knowledge due to a number of religious lawyers and judges actively seeking anything to discredit Jesus.

My point was and remains that the farming/gardening knowledge of the religious lawyers and judges is not relevant. What matters is whether there were seeds smaller than mustard seeds in Jesus' day. The answer remains there were.

Please be specific: name a seed "sown on the ground" by humans for agricultural use during time of Jesus that is smaller than a mustard seed.

Orchid seeds are smaller. Jesus doesn't say the mustard seed is the smallest of "all seeds planted in the ground." He says it is the smallest of "all seeds." Orchid seeds are among "all seeds," and are smaller than mustard seeds. [ESV and NRSV translate the phrase as "the smallest of all the seeds on earth." NIV is almost identical to that translation. The LEB is an outlier if in fact it means to limit Jesus' assertion to seeds planted by people in the ground, which I'm not convinced it does.]

Jesus knowing 'God's commandment is eternal life' is consistent with Jesus being God, who was having God's Glory and Love before creation.

No part of your response here addresses the question I asked so I will ask it again: If Jesus was God, wouldn't he have known about all seeds, or do you claim that as God he was not as omniscient as the God he addressed as "Father"?

Concur One True God inspired original language wording (albeit without chapter and verse numbering). If belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' is faulty, that is Jesus is God (literally consistent with "I and The Father are One"), curious how many clearly comments would change to reflect belief change about The Father, Jesus, and Breath the Holy eternally being One True God ?

Observation: our comments about text snippets clearly communicates belief assumptions (also true of every translation since humans <> robots).

Your comments here do not engage the content of the text to which I addressed my comment, "The text says what it says." Do you have any comments about the text itself or about the specifics of my take on the text? In my view, your "belief assumption" meme adds nothing substantive to our discussion of the content of the text.

The verb "may be" in verse 22 is a subjunctive, which is conditional. In John 17:20 is the condition for experiencing verse 22: believe in me, Jesus (OR be believing to express noun & verbal aspects of believe participle in present tense: continous action in present time).

The child in me enjoys cuddling in One God's commUnity of Love (where One God always was, is, and will be while my human spirit is connected with God's Holy Loving presence when my choice to love most is God, but Holy presence quietly leaves when my thoughts/actions focus on sin).

The intended audience of Jesus' prayer for "perfect unity" does not change the meaning of his phrase "perfect unity." WHOEVER Jesus has in mind as he prays that they be "one," it's clear that he believes those people are capable of the same oneness he has with God, which strongly suggests he does not mean he is God when he claims he and the Father are "one."

Believing in Jesus as Lord and Savior while believing Jesus is distinct from God shows belief in God lacks belief in Jesus => commandment violated. "Jesus doesn't have to be God - in fact, CANNOT be God" is consistent with belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.'

I know of no commandment that connects belief in Jesus to belief in God. John 14.1 is close, I suppose, but that verse contains two separate commands - a command to believe in God and a command to believe also in him (Jesus). Please cite the verse(s) you have in mind that connect belief in Jesus to belief in God.

Again, your "belief assumption" meme contributes nothing substantive to our discussion of the actual content of texts or our respective posts.

Clearly communicates belief in two distinct deities with one entity being the way to the other. To me is simplier to believe Jesus is Lord God (so loving Jesus first is loving One True God first, which also includes loving The Father and Breath The Holy as One God), fulfills commandment.

The text gives NO indication that Jesus believes he is either God or one of "two distinct deities."

Faith assertion "At NO TIME in his engagement with the Sanhedrin does Jesus claim to be God." is consistent with belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' while clearly unable to explain Jewish legal motivation for having Jesus put to death (for what Jesus said).

You answered your own question: The "Jewish legal motivation for having Jesus put to death" was "what Jesus said." The issue I raised had nothing to do with the legal justification for their desires. What I raised was the logical fact that just because they BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT MEAN they were CORRECT that Jesus claimed to be God. If they believed Jesus had claimed to be God, they were wrong. Please comment on the logic of my response: If I believe you claim to be God, does that necessarily mean I am CORRECT that you claim to be God? Or is it possible that I could be WRONG to believe you claim to be God?

And once again, your recurring "belief assumption" meme adds nothing substantive to our discussion of the content of texts or our respective posts.

My reply on October 5 included: [LEB Lk22.69 "but from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God."]

I have no idea why I claimed the LEB's translation was an outlier when it comes to "Son of Man" and "Son of God" in the Luke 22 passage. Please disregard that mistaken observation of mine.

Bolded words are imperative (demanding) verbs: Pray, take, be done, pray (easier to "see" range of Greek verbal usage in Logos Bible Software)

Thanks for the additional detail.

NLT translation style is more dynamic than LEB. NLT modified Luke 22:44 word order so "fell" is before "like" while LEB is literally closer to Greek description written by Luke about sweat composition changing to become visibly red (in the moonlight) followed by falling to the ground.

Luke 22:44 (LEB) And being in anguish, he began praying more fervently and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Even the LEB's rendering of the verse does NOT claim Jesus' sweat BECAME blood. It says his sweat became "like" blood following - a simile. For example, Genesis 25.25 describes Esau's appearance at his birth this way: "...very red at birth and covered with thick hair like a fur coat." Those words clearly do not mean Esau wore a fur coat as he exited the birth canal. And when in Deuteronomy 1.24 Moses describes the Amorites' surge against the Israelites as "like a swarm of bees," he's not saying the Amorites were actually bees. Moses, as did Jesus, used a simile.

Truly what is humility ? How confidently does Jesus know who He is so He has no need to boast ? Yet wind and seas obey His voice as do demons. Human belief is the result of many thoughts. Faith assertion " Jesus' clear claim is that he is NOT God." is consistent with belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' that clearly does not want to recognize Jesus is Lord God (in a variety of expressions: e.g. Daniel 7:13-14 prophecy fulfillment = "Son of Man", many "I AM' self identifications as Lord God with characteristics that only One True God was/is/will be).

My claim is not that Jesus failed to "boast" about his being God. My claim instead is that he failed EVER to CLAIM to be God. You have yet to cite a verse in which Jesus claims to be God... because no such verse exists.

And once again your "belief assumption" meme, this time accompanied by a "faith assertion" meme, makes no substantive contribution to our discussion of the content of texts or our respective posts.

Puzzling "text in question" context since my worship answer relates to two post-resurrection encounters with Jesus by Mary & Thomas in John 20.

This piece of our exchange reflects our comments on multiple passages, not one. Examining its history, I found references to Mary at the tomb, to Thomas post-resurrection, and to the rich man who called Jesus "good teacher." We should probably pick one text and focus solely on it!

Puzzled by question being asked again as Hebrews 9 passage does address ascension purpose of offering blood in the heavenly holy of holies. Actually passage could be expanded to include much more of Hebrews. Also puzzled by 24-25 reference since Hebrews 6 has 20 verses.

The Hebrews 6 citation was a typo. My mistake. The sentence containing that errant citation accurately began with a reference to Hebrews 9, but did not conclude with a reference to that chapter. The correct citation to verses that declare additional distinctions between Jesus and God, therefore, is Hebrews 9.14,24-25.

The question to which your reference to Hebrews 9 did not respond, and which I then repeated - and here repeat again - was this: If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he tell his disciples that he was ascending to the one who was his (and their) God?

Wording of questions embed belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' along with desire for arrogant expression by Jesus Christ, who is truly humble while being Lord God's King of Righteousness (sharing YHWH name with God The Father) and High Priest.

So your claim is that Jesus stood resurrected from the dead before Mary at the tomb and didn't tell her he was God because he didn't want to show off? In fact, this seems to be your broader explanation of Jesus' failure to self-identify as God: Humility precluded his doing so. My goodness, he had told his disciples that they would see him "...coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven." (Matthew 24.30-31) Jesus was "arrogant" enough to tell them that, but wasn't "arrogant" enough EVER to tell them he was God?

 Jeremiah 23:1-4 (LEB) shows translation change to future tense "will" without any words indicating how long: e.g. between punishment and gathering remnant.

The text of Jeremiah 23 gives what I view is a clear sense of timing of the actions it offers from God.

• Jer 23.1 - Sorrow awaits then-current shepherds. There's no sense in the verse that said sorrow will arrive in their afterlives. Instead, the sorrow will arrive in their lifetimes.
• Jer 23.2-3 - God pronounces judgment on the shepherds for the evil they have done - again, in their time - and promises to gather "the remnant of [God's] flock" from the countries to which God has driven them. In context, it makes no sense that God would promise to restore justice and responsible shepherds to the remnant, but only after another 600 years pass. Hence, the promised "righteous descendant from King David's line" for the prophet is most likely someone of his day.

Assertion "of the prophet's day" provides a classic eisegesis example. How long had the first woe in Jeremiah 23:1 been happening ? The Northern Kingdom of Israel had already been scattered. Assyria assertion contradicts Jeremiah 50:17-18

Exegesis, not eisegesis. The most sensible reading of the text is that God promises justice for offending shepherds of the prophet's day, and a return home to the exiles of the prophet's day. If you disagree, on what basis would the exiles and those more directly afflicted by the unjust shepherds of the prophet's day have taken hope if they believed God's promise concerned events to come 600 years in the future?

My read of the text is that God gathered Israel and Judah together in the promise of Israel's return to wholeness (note that in Jer 50.17-18, God unifies the experiences of Israel and Judah by attaching them to "the Israelites").

As for the Assyrian reference, I acknowledge that the Babylonians were also in the "north," though in my studies over the years, the Assyrians have been more prominently identified as those from the north. Either way, God's focus is on events and antagonists of the prophet's day.

Our claims are consistent with our belief assumptions about One God. Faith assertion "of the prophet's day" eisegesis provides conflict resolution to many prophecies so belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God'. does not appear to be proven wrong. No child "of the prophet's day" during the time of Isaiah truly fits the description of Isaiah 9:1-7 that Jesus declared fulfilled in Matthew 4:12-17

As I noted, we each must resolve such conflicts as best we can, and I'm sure we both do so.

Another conflict resolution eisegesis example is "man" always meaning "NOT God", consistent with belief assumption: '... Jesus cannot be God.'

The Greek word translated "man" in Acts 2.22 is "ἄνδρα." From what I can find about the word, it refers to humans - mostly, but not exclusively, to male humans. I am not aware of a text in which the word is used to refer to deities. Acts 2.22 is certainly not one of them.

Your identifications of and assertions about my analysis of texts - e.g. "another conflict resolution eisegesis example" - add nothing to our discussion of the content of texts. Revisit your assertion here and you will note that in it you provided NO comment about YOUR take on the text. Where in the text do you find support for your view of the text? We don't know because you don't reveal your view of the text. Instead, you use your posts to indict my motives. Please tell us YOUR view of Acts 2.22-24. Where in the text do you find support for YOUR conclusions about it?

Faith assertion "the claims you make in this paragraph have no biblical basis" is consistent with belief assumption: '... Jesus cannot be God.'

Yet again you critique MY approach to texts without so much as a hint of YOUR take on texts. If you believe your claims on which I commented DO have a biblical basis, then present that biblical basis.

And yet again, your "belief assumption" meme makes no substantive contribution to our discussion. But for what it's worth, I assert to you for the who-knows-how-manyeth time that my conclusion that Jesus is not God came AFTER decades of study of the biblical text. FIRST came the study, THEN came the conclusion. I assume your conclusion that Jesus IS God came after YOUR study of the text. Am I wrong about that?

If "the lawyers and judges believed Jesus claimed to be God" they would have worshipped Jesus as Lord God. Humanly these religious lawyers and judges proved they correctly heard the Truthful "I AM" Lord God identity spoken by Jesus while choosing NOT to believe in Jesus as Lord God. Considering unbelief of religious lawyers and judges, am amazed they understood deity claims by Jesus, giving them legal reason for Jesus to die.

Humans can hear/know the truth and choose evil (with heart deceitful & desparately wicked) as shown in Matthew 12:22-32 and John 9:13-34

That the lawyers and judges "believed Jesus claimed to God" means ONLY that they believed he claimed to be God; it says NOTHING about whether they would have worshiped Jesus as God.

There is nothing in the text to support the view that the lawyers et al heard the Jesus' use of the words "I AM" as declarations of deity. They heard those two words as we hear them in the text: as responses to questions about his identity. Question: "Are you the Messiah, the Son of God?" Answer: "I am [the Messiah, the Son of God]." (Mark 14.61-62)

(LEB) says last two words spoken by Jesus to the Sanhedrin were "I AM" that is really heart breaking because of willful refusal to believe Jesus is Lord God. Years of intensely studying Scripture and outward righteousness had secret sins inside: Matthew 23:25-26 hypocrites, Luke 11:37-41 fools (spoken by Lord God Jesus in Love)

And again, in the text, the words "I am" serve as a response to a question, not as a declaration of deity. The exchange follows the same format:

• "Are you X?"
• "You say that I am."

Time and again in our exchanges you have attached to the words "I am" a role that in the text they do not play (John 8.58 is an interesting variation on this theme, but it is alone in such a category).