Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?
Comments
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Jesus is God the Father of the Old Testament.
John the baptizer was sent to prepare the way before Jesus.
This is what God the Father in the Old Testament about HIMSELF in the future when He comes as a Son, Jesus Christ.
Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
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@YourTruthGod posted:
Yet another superfluous post, which reflects yet again your refusal to engage in serious Bible study with people whose views are different from yours.
On July 13, in THIS NEARLY 700 WORD POST, I presented a multi-layered exegesis of the child prophesied in Isaiah 7.14. I followed that post up with THIS NEARLY 700 WORD JULY 14 POST, the last 550 words of which analyzed the two children referenced, respectively, in Isaiah 7.14 and Isaiah 8.3-4. To the former post, you responded with a 170 word post whose purpose was to accuse me of dishonesty. To the latter post, you responded with a seven word post that doubled down on your dishonesty claim.
You're right. I'M badgering YOU.
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@YourTruthGod wrote:
Jesus is God the Father come in the flesh as a man.
God is the King as stated in the Old Testament scripture:
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
And David (or Solomon, etc.) were other impersonations of God the Father and Jesus ??? perhaps they were only pseudo KINGS over Israel?? Or did God the Father come in the flesh as David commit adultery? God the Father had many wives and concubines while he was in the flesh as Solomon?
Your ideas and interpretations are so obviously wrong ... do you not realize what your ideas (as above in the case of trying to support your idea from the word "king of Israel") lead to???
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@Bill_Coley On July 13, in THIS NEARLY 700 WORD POST, I presented a multi-layered exegesis of the child prophesied in Isaiah 7.14. I followed that post up with THIS NEARLY 700 WORD JULY 14 POST, the last 550 words of which analyzed the two children referenced, respectively, inIsaiah 7.14 and Isaiah 8.3-4. To the former post, you responded with a 170 word post whose purpose was to accuse me of dishonesty. To the latter post, you responded with a seven word post that doubled down on your dishonesty claim.You're right. I'M badgering YOU.
It was a lot of words to try to change the truth. Too many words.
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@Wolfgang And David (or Solomon, etc.) were other impersonations of God the Father and Jesus ??? perhaps they were only pseudo KINGS over Israel?? Or did God the Father come in the flesh as David commit adultery? God the Father had many wives and concubines while he was in the flesh as Solomon?
Your ideas and interpretations are so obviously wrong ... do you not realize what your ideas (as above in the case of trying to support your idea from the word "king of Israel") lead to???
What you say about God coming in the flesh as David and committing adultery is sick.
I gave you scriptures of where God the Father is called King and scriptures of Jesus being called King and you mock the truth.
1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Post edited by YourTruthGod on -
@YourTruthGod wrote:
I gave you scriptures of where God the Father is called King and scriptures of Jesus being called King and you mock the truth.
And I pointed out to you that not only Jesus is called king (of Israel) but also David and Solomon ... which shows rather plainly that your idea of basing your idea on the use of the word "king" for God and for Jesus makes them one and the same is invalid and results in false doctrine.
I was certainly not mocking the truth, rather I was and am pointing out Biblical truth to you ... as it is "YOUR truth" which makes a mockery of what Scripture reveals as truth.
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I gave scripture that says JESUS IS THE KING OVER ALL THE kings of the earth and @Wolfgang speaks against it.
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
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I gave scripture that says JESUS IS THE KING OVER ALL THE kings of the earth and @Wolfgang speaks against it.
Where did I do what you claim there (Wolfgang speak against it [Scripture} ...") ??? I spoke most definitely against YOUR theological ideas and showed from scripture how ludicrous YOUR interpretation and cross referencing of verses is. However, I did not speak against scriptures.
Btw, is Jesus als the Ling over the King of heaven ?? Or is he subordinate to the King of heaven ??
Furthermore, are you trying to say by quoting Rev 1:5 that God is "the firstborn from the dead" ??
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I am not interested in speaking to @Wolfgang fgang and @Bill_Coley anymore.
It is too frustrating to have them mock every scripture I post and then deny they do it.
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@YourTruthGod posted:
It was a lot of words to try to change the truth. Too many words.
And those "lot of words" - which I describe as on-topic biblical exegesis - prompted you to post all of 15 words, which do little more than complain about my posts' "too many words." That about sums up the content of our exchanges: I post on-topic textual engagement, and you post comments about me.
I am not interested in speaking to @Wolfgang fgang and @Bill_Coley anymore.
It is too frustrating to have them mock every scripture I post and then deny they do it.
It seems to me that if we "mock" the Scriptures you post, then you ought to be able to demonstrate and refute our efforts rather easily. Simply quote the "mocking" content of our posts, then point out the errors of our ways using what you have called the "truth" of the biblical text. In your exchanges with me, I know, you have not chosen that approach; in fact, your responses to my posts have included very little biblical engagement (you'll find multiple posts in this very thread in which I requested that you show me your point "from the text," requests I repeated several times because you almost always chose not to fulfill them). Instead, you've chosen a path of personal critique and evaluation. If that's likely to be your approach going forward, then in my view, your announced intention not to engage @Wolfgang or me is probably the best choice.
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I love God's Word and if someone else does not, then there is no discussing with you.
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@YourTruthGod, I see ... and understand many things as they are revealed by what people write.
Btw, I don't remember reading anywhere in various threads here that someone accused you of not loving God or loving His Word. Actually, both @Bill_Coley and I have taken quite a lot of time and invested a lot of effort in your replies to points in your posts, both in answering your questions and clarifying our points in more detail, as well as in formulating our questions and comments carefully and in plain and clear language so you could hopefully understand these. Why did I do so (Bill will need to speak for himself)? Because I consider carefully the encouragement found in Col 3:16 concerning studying together, teaching and admonishing one another as we let the word concerning Christ dwell richly in and among us in our hearts.
I acknowledge now that you are seemingly not really interested in exploring the Word of God, the Scripture, together ... and you show it clearly by what you write and how you refuse to engage with scripture text in order to study together, while instead you chose an approach of preaching your conviction to others for them to believe what you write.
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The Bible says JESUS IS THE KING of kings.
Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
The scripture plainly says the ONLY GOD AND KING.
That proves Jesus is God!
1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Jesus is GOD and the ONLY RULER, the KING of kings and Lord of lords.
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@YourTruthGod wrote
The Bible says JESUS IS THE KING of kings.
Yes .... BUT it never says anywhere that Jesus is God! It also never says that Jesus is the only ruler.
You disregard a very simple and important fact in language which is that words and expressions may be used in reference to different people and different situations and such does NOT mean that the different people are one and the same and also not that different situations are identical.
Jesus is a prophet, Moses is a prophet ... Jesus and Moses are one and the same???
God is holy, believers are saints/holy ones ... believers are all God ???
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@YourTruthGod posted:
The Bible says JESUS IS THE KING of kings.
Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
The scripture plainly says the ONLY GOD AND KING.
That proves Jesus is God!
I'm struck by the fact that to make your case, you have to piece together verses from disparate locations, then from them draw a conclusion that none of them makes on its own. Wolfgang and I, on the other cites verses/passages that ON THEIR OWN make our case. Mark 10.40, for example, on its own makes the case that Jesus is not God. Jesus tells James and John that he (Jesus) has no right to say who sits where around the Kingdom's throne, ONLY GOD does. On its own, that verse/passage says Jesus is not God, or at the very least, that Jesus doesn't believe he is God. Where is the verse/passage that on its own says Jesus is God?
1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
Here you choose to quote a single verse, but not its context. Perhaps you made that choice because the context of this 1 Timothy 6 verse is not friendly to your argument:
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, 14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
To introduce the verse you quoted, the writer makes a clear, inarguable distinction between being "in the presence of..." "God," who gives life to all things, and in the presence of "Christ Jesus," who before Pilate made "the good confession." There is no suggestion in the passage - none - that the writer thinks "Christ Jesus" is God. And there is every suggestion - directly so, I contend - that the writer believes Jesus is NOT God.
Back to Revelation 17:14:
Whatever is the meaning of the "Lord of lords, and King of kings" designation here, it cannot mean that Jesus is God for John the revelator. Back to Revelation 5, where, of the 24 elders' response to the Lamb John writes:
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, 10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” 11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”
By his sacrifice, the lamb ransomed people "for God" and made them a kingdom "to our God." The lamb did something for God. The elders give NO indication in their response that they believe the lamb IS God. They assert that the lamb acted for God. The most obvious reading of the passage makes yet another inarguable distinction between Jesus (the lamb) and God.
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@Bill_Coley wrote:
By his sacrifice, the lamb ransomed people "for God" and made them a kingdom "to our God." The lamb did something for God. The elders give NO indication in their response that they believe the lamb IS God. They assert that the lamb acted for God. The most obvious reading of the passage makes yet another inarguable distinction between Jesus (the lamb) and God.
One may also note, that a sacrifice is offered TO GOD, the sacrifice nor the priest offering the sacrifice can NOT be God.
As for the titles used in Scripture for both God and also Jesus (such as "first and last", "king of kings lord of lords", etc one must recognize that such does NOT make the two one and the same, no more than two people who both have the name "Joseph" are only one and the same, nor are two people who are both "bakers" etc. one and the same.
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@Wolfgang One may also note, that a sacrifice is offered TO GOD, the sacrifice nor the priest offering the sacrifice can NOT be God.
As for the titles used in Scripture for both God and also Jesus (such as "first and last", "king of kings lord of lords", etc one must recognize that such does NOT make the two one and the same, no more than two people who both have the name "Joseph" are only one and the same, nor are two people who are both "bakers" etc. one and the same.
There is only one King of kings. There is only one first and the last. One even means 'the same'.
You have the choice before you today to believe in it and know it.
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Gentle bump of two questions for @Bill_Coley
@Bill_Coley Once glorified, Jesus is no longer just a "man." Any God who can raise a crucified man to new life, can find a way for a resurrected man to make a home in other humans.
More than one heavenly entity who can make spiritual home in humans (deity) while being separate is clearly not monotheism. If heavenly spiritual direction is different, how does a human know which deity entity to obey ?
@Bill_Coley In my view, the fact that the high priest, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, or any other persons/groups claimed Jesus believed he was God does NOT mean, let alone prove, that Jesus believed he was God
Question from scripture (before the crucifixion): How did Jesus intelligently know He "descended from heaven" or "came down from heaven" or "from above " (humans are from below) ?
Plus one more question:
Is John 14:1 "πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε" figurative speech or a command from Jesus to His disciples to believe in Jesus as God ?
πιστεύετε parsing => verb, present, active, indicative OR imperative, 2nd person, plural (ye be believing)
Preposition εἰς has different objects (believing to/toward/in): τὸν θεόν (The God) and ἐμὲ (Me = Jesus) that has word order emphasis for Believe In Jesus
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus postSmiling
More than one heavenly entity who can make spiritual home in humans (deity) while being separate is clearly not monotheism. If heavenly spiritual direction is different, how does a human know which deity entity to obey ?
I clearly missed this question and the post in which you placed it. I apologize.
As I suggested in an exchange with @YourTruthGod, I think the form in which Jesus makes his home in us is through the Advocate he promised - the one he called the Holy Spirit - who would never leave us. (John 14.16-17) I believe that Spirit is the spirit that fell upon Jesus at his baptism. It is that Spirit - the spirit that was in Jesus - that makes its home in us. So in my view, there is no decision needed as to which deity to obey. There is only one deity entity: the Spirit of God; aka the Advocate; aka the Holy Spirit; aka the spirit of Christ. It's the one spirit to which we give many names, but it is the spirit of God that was in Jesus that makes its home in us. [That last sentence was NOT a trinitarian claim. In my view, there is one God, whose Spirit is called different names in the NT - not because it emanates from a multi-dimensional godhead, but because various writers refer to it using different terminology.]
Question from scripture (before the crucifixion): How did Jesus intelligently know He "descended from heaven" or "came down from heaven" or "from above " (humans are from below) ?
I must have missed your entire post. My bad.
I don't know what the phrase to which you refer means. In its John 3 context, it arises quickly, and then never returns, at least not in John (or any of the Synoptics). I don't know what it means. It's an image to which Jesus turns only in John's, highly spiritualized, Gospel. I think the idea that Jesus came from heaven is foreign to the Jesus presented in the Synoptics.
Is John 14:1 "πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε" figurative speech or a command from Jesus to His disciples to believe in Jesus as God ?
If a mother says to her child, "you can trust me and you can trust your father," is she saying she and the child's father are the same person? No. Similarly, I don't think Jesus is saying he and God are the same. I think he's inviting trust in both God and himself as God's emissary/Son. Yes, he presents the Father to the world in startling detail and with intimate detail, which he seems to say is possible only because God speaks and works through him (John 14.10, ESV)
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote
Question from scripture (before the crucifixion): How did Jesus intelligently know He "descended from heaven" or "came down from heaven" or "from above " (humans are from below) ?
In the expression "come from heaven" Jesus uses "heaven" as a figure of speech by which "heaven" stands for "God" Who dwells there; thus Jesus emphatically contrasts that he was from God. . How did Jesus know this intelligently? Rather simple .... did Jesus know Scripture and prophecies concerning the promised Messiah who would be sent by or from God? Jesus quotes Scripture when he was tempted. Jesus opened the scroll of Isaiah at the syynagogue when it was handed to him to read and immediately found the place he was going to read and tell the audience that that prophecy was fulfilled in their ears that day ...
Also, did Jesus say that all humans are from below? Or did Jesus contrast himself with those enemies of him who were from below?? It seems like your pre-conceived idea of "Jesus = God" misleads you to not carefully read and understand the immediate context?
Plus one more question:
Is John 14:1 "πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε" figurative speech or a command from Jesus to His disciples to believe in Jesus as God ?
??? "figure of speech OR commandment ?? Whether the statement involves a figure of speech or not, it is an exhortation or commandment if you wish ...
When the son of a BAKER (who does the BAKER's business) says to the customers in the shop, "Trust in my Father, and trust in me", is he exhorting them to trust that he is his father and that the two of them are not two but only one baker??
πιστεύετε parsing => verb, present, active, indicative OR imperative, 2nd person, plural (ye be believing)
Preposition εἰς has different objects (believing to/toward/in): τὸν θεόν (The God) and ἐμὲ (Me = Jesus) that has word order emphasis for Believe In Jesus
And this verb form determines that te statement is an exhortation or command, whether in the rest of the sentence figures of speech are involved or not.
Now, the word "and" connects two thoughts in one sentence and ndicates rather plainly that Jesus exhorts his disciple (1) to trust/believe IN God and (2) to trust/believe IN him ... The disciples were to trust IN what God had planned and was doing and they were to trust IN what Jesus was doing in carrying out that mission.
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More than one heavenly entity who can make spiritual home in humans (deity) while being separate is clearly not monotheism. If heavenly spiritual direction is different, how does a human know which deity entity to obey ?
@Bill_Coley I clearly missed this question and the post in which you placed it. I apologize.
@Bill_Coley As I suggested in an exchange with @YourTruthGod, I think the form in which Jesus makes his home in us is through the Advocate he promised - the one he called the Holy Spirit - who would never leave us. (John 14.16-17) I believe that Spirit is the spirit that fell upon Jesus at his baptism. It is that Spirit - the spirit that was in Jesus - that makes its home in us. So in my view, there is no decision needed as to which deity to obey. There is only one deity entity: the Spirit of God; aka the Advocate; aka the Holy Spirit; aka the spirit of Christ. It's the one spirit to which we give many names, but it is the spirit of God that was in Jesus that makes its home in us. [That last sentence was NOT a trinitarian claim. In my view, there is one God, whose Spirit is called different names in the NT - not because it emanates from a multi-dimensional godhead, but because various writers refer to it using different terminology.]
Please clarify difference(s) between trinitarian, tritheism, and monotheism. Assertion has a sentence reading like trinitarian understanding about Holy Spirit followed by [That last sentence was NOT a trinitarian claim ...], which is puzzling & confusing.
John 14:15 (NLT) If you love me, obey my commandments.
Who is Jesus to desire loving obedience of commandments by Jesus ? especially while remembering Deuteronomy 30:10 (NLT) The Lord your God will delight in you if you obey his voice and keep the commands and decrees written in this Book of Instruction, and if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.
If Jesus is God, then John 14:15 reflects One God's plural unity in Deuteronomy 30:10 יהוה The Lord (unity) your אֱלֹהִים God (Plural) that is echoed in "Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear." in Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, & Luke 21:33 (my is spoken by Jesus)
If Jesus is not God, then John 14:15 contradicts Deuteronomy 30:10 for "obey".
Question from scripture (before the crucifixion): How did Jesus intelligently know He "descended from heaven" or "came down from heaven" or "from above " (humans are from below) ?
@Bill_Coley I don't know what the phrase to which you refer means. In its John 3 context, it arises quickly, and then never returns, at least not in John (or any of the Synoptics). I don't know what it means. It's an image to which Jesus turns only in John's, highly spiritualized, Gospel. I think the idea that Jesus came from heaven is foreign to the Jesus presented in the Synoptics.
John 3:13 is followed by seven more "from heaven" or "from above" phrases spoken by Jesus in John 6:32-33, 6:38, 6:41, 6:51, 6:58, 8:23
Luke 10:18 (NLT) “Yes,” he told them, “I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning!
Is John 14:1 "πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε" figurative speech or a command from Jesus to His disciples to believe in Jesus as God ?
@Bill_Coley If a mother says to her child, "you can trust me and you can trust your father," is she saying she and the child's father are the same person? No. Similarly, I don't think Jesus is saying he and God are the same. I think he's inviting trust in both God and himself as God's emissary/Son. Yes, he presents the Father to the world in startling detail and with intimate detail, which he seems to say is possible only because God speaks and works through him (John 14.10, ESV) Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Genesis 2:24 (NLT) This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.
Matthew 19:4-6 (NLT) “Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’ And he said, ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together.”
Ideally a child's mother and father are one in many aspects: Spiritually, Emotionally, Mentally, Socially, Physically (by Loving God first so each one can see God's image in them so God's Love flows into them & out to each other plus everyone else: children, parents, family, friends, neighbors, enemies). Humanly saddened by many marriages where two people are not being one the way God designed.
Assertion "I don't think Jesus is saying he and God are the same" restates personal faith view (so does not want to believe Jesus is God while One plural unified God includes Father, Son, Holy Spirit). John 14:1 does not contain the words emissary nor son.
Question from scripture (before the crucifixion): How did Jesus intelligently know He "descended from heaven" or "came down from heaven" or "from above " (humans are from below) ?
@Wolfgang In the expression "come from heaven" Jesus uses "heaven" as a figure of speech by which "heaven" stands for "God" Who dwells there; thus Jesus emphatically contrasts that he was from God.
John 6:46 (ESV) not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.
Jesus spoke both phrases "from heaven" and "from God" in John 6 to describe where Jesus had literally come from plus what He had seen there.
@Wolfgang How did Jesus know this intelligently? Rather simple .... did Jesus know Scripture and prophecies concerning the promised Messiah who would be sent by or from God? Jesus quotes Scripture when he was tempted. Jesus opened the scroll of Isaiah at the syynagogue when it was handed to him to read and immediately found the place he was going to read and tell the audience that that prophecy was fulfilled in their ears that day ...
Noticed historical cultural context of scheduled Synagogue readings missing. Isaiah 61:1-3 was among scriptures read near the 1st of Tishri (call to get right with God, ten days of awe/repentance, Yom Kippur day of atonement, feast of tabernacles: dwelling with God). Jesus came from heaven to fulfill Yom Kippur atonement for everyone (so those who believe in Jesus can become Holy so can spend eternity in plural unity of One God).
Plus one more question:
Is John 14:1 "πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε" figurative speech or a command from Jesus to His disciples to believe in Jesus as God ?
@Wolfgang ??? "figure of speech OR commandment ?? Whether the statement involves a figure of speech or not, it is an exhortation or commandment if you wish ...
@Wolfgang When the son of a BAKER (who does the BAKER's business) says to the customers in the shop, "Trust in my Father, and trust in me", is he exhorting them to trust that he is his father and that the two of them are not two but only one baker??
Father and son bakers are human (not God) so human analogy is not applicable to John 14:1
πιστεύετε parsing => verb, present, active, indicative OR imperative, 2nd person, plural (ye be believing)
Preposition εἰς has different objects (believing to/toward/in): τὸν θεόν (The God) and ἐμὲ (Me = Jesus) that has word order emphasis for Believe In Jesus
@Wolfgang And this verb form determines that te statement is an exhortation or command, whether in the rest of the sentence figures of speech are involved or not.
@Wolfgang Now, the word "and" connects two thoughts in one sentence and ndicates rather plainly that Jesus exhorts his disciple (1) to trust/believe IN God and (2) to trust/believe IN him ... The disciples were to trust IN what God had planned and was doing and they were to trust IN what Jesus was doing in carrying out that mission.
John 14:1 does not have "trust IN" qualifiers: planned, mission, ...
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Please clarify difference(s) between trinitarian, tritheism, and monotheism. Assertion has a sentence reading like trinitarian understanding about Holy Spirit followed by [That last sentence was NOT a trinitarian claim ...], which is puzzling & confusing.
- I'm not familiar with the term "tritheism," but from the formation of the word, I'm guessing it means a belief in three distinct gods.
- Trinitarian refers to the classic theological term with which we're all familiar.
- Monotheism refers to a belief in a single god
The idea of the confusing sentence is that the spirit God gave to Jesus in the baptism is the spirit that's available to us; it is the Holy Spirit. Just because the Spirit is in us does not mean that we ARE the Spirit. Because the Spirit of God was in Jesus does not mean Jesus was God.
Who is Jesus to desire loving obedience of commandments by Jesus ? especially while remembering Deuteronomy 30:10 (NLT) The Lord your God will delight in you if you obey his voice and keep the commands and decrees written in this Book of Instruction, and if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.
Jesus is their lord, their teacher. His teachings have the authority of the God who sent him.
If Jesus is God, then John 14:15 reflects One God's plural unity in Deuteronomy 30:10 יהוה The Lord (unity) your אֱלֹהִים God (Plural) that is echoed in "Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear." in Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, & Luke 21:33 (my is spoken by Jesus)
"IF Jesus is God," of course, is a hypothetical useful to your argument, but one for which you have not provided proof - in my view, because the hypothetical is not true.
If Jesus is not God, then John 14:15 contradicts Deuteronomy 30:10 for "obey".
I don't see the contradiction because I see Jesus as a teacher/lord whom the disciples followed.
John 3:13 is followed by seven more "from heaven" or "from above" phrases spoken by Jesus in John 6:32-33, 6:38, 6:41, 6:51, 6:58, 8:23
Luke 10:18 (NLT) “Yes,” he told them, “I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning!
Revisit my earlier post and I think you will find that I noted that the image of Jesus' being "from heaven" is exclusive to john's Gospel and is not found in the Synoptics. The texts quoted in your reply here seem to confirm my assertion.
Genesis 2:24 (NLT) This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.
Matthew 19:4-6 (NLT) “Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’And he said, ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together.”
Ideally a child's mother and father are one in many aspects: Spiritually, Emotionally, Mentally, Socially, Physically (by Loving God first so each one can see God's image in them so God's Love flows into them & out to each other plus everyone else: children, parents, family, friends, neighbors, enemies). Humanly saddened by many marriages where two people are not being one the way God designed.
That a man and a woman once married are "one" does not mean that they are the same person.
Assertion "I don't think Jesus is saying he and God are the same" restates personal faith view (so does not want to believe Jesus is God while One plural unified God includes Father, Son, Holy Spirit). John 14:1 does not contain the words emissary nor son.
My assertion indeed restates my personal faith view (does your personal faith view differ from YOUR assertion about the meaning of the verse? I doubt it.) But my assertion FIRST restates my belief about the meaning of the verse. This is a chicken/egg thing: Which comes first, one's interpretation of a verse or one's expectation of the verse's meaning? In my experience, one's interpretation of a verse precedes the faith assertions that arise from that interpretation.
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Please clarify difference(s) between trinitarian, tritheism, and monotheism. Assertion has a sentence reading like trinitarian understanding about Holy Spirit followed by [That last sentence was NOT a trinitarian claim ...], which is puzzling & confusing.
- I'm not familiar with the term "tritheism," but from the formation of the word, I'm guessing it means a belief in three distinct gods.
- Trinitarian refers to the classic theological term with which we're all familiar.
- Monotheism refers to a belief in a single god
What is the primary theological difference between tritheism (belief in three distinct gods) and triunity ?
What is the primary theological difference between monotheism (belief in a single god) and triunity ?
Observation is reference to the classic theological term lacks personal insight (plus suspect our term understandings are significantly different)
@Bill_Coley The idea of the confusing sentence is that the spirit God gave to Jesus in the baptism is the spirit that's available to us; it is the Holy Spirit. Just because the Spirit is in us does not mean that we ARE the Spirit. Because the Spirit of God was in Jesus does not mean Jesus was God.
Concur that Holy Spirit being in me allows me to be in God's commUnity of Love while remaining a created child of God (by His Loving Grace). Humanly have daily battle between Holy Spirit and my old human desires (while wanting to Be Holy as God is Holy).
Who is Jesus to desire loving obedience of commandments by Jesus ? especially while remembering Deuteronomy 30:10 (NLT) The Lord your God will delight in you if you obey his voice and keep the commands and decrees written in this Book of Instruction, and if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.
@Bill_Coley Jesus is their lord, their teacher. His teachings have the authority of the God who sent him.
How is Jesus different from human prophets that spoke by authority of the One God ? e.g. Hebrews 3:1-6 comparison of Moses and Jesus
How could Jesus be completely without sin ? 1 Peter 1:19 (contrasts with parents that have terrible two stories about sin nature in children)
If Jesus is not God, then John 14:15 contradicts Deuteronomy 30:10 for "obey".
@Bill_Coley I don't see the contradiction because I see Jesus as a teacher/lord whom the disciples followed.
How many teacher(s)/lord(s) to obey ? Are Words spoken by Jesus separate from who Jesus is ?
John 3:13 is followed by seven more "from heaven" or "from above" phrases spoken by Jesus in John 6:32-33, 6:38, 6:41, 6:51, 6:58, 8:23
Luke 10:18 (NLT) “Yes,” he told them, “I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning!
@Bill_Coley Revisit my earlier post and I think you will find that I noted that the image of Jesus' being "from heaven" is exclusive to john's Gospel and is not found in the Synoptics. The texts quoted in your reply here seem to confirm my assertion.
Humanly cannot make claim recorded in Luke 10:18 so please explain how Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven.
Assertion "I don't think Jesus is saying he and God are the same" restates personal faith view (so does not want to believe Jesus is God while One plural unified God includes Father, Son, Holy Spirit). John 14:1 does not contain the words emissary nor son.
@Bill_Coley My assertion indeed restates my personal faith view (does your personal faith view differ from YOUR assertion about the meaning of the verse? I doubt it.) But my assertion FIRST restates my belief about the meaning of the verse. This is a chicken/egg thing: Which comes first, one's interpretation of a verse or one's expectation of the verse's meaning? In my experience, one's interpretation of a verse precedes the faith assertions that arise from that interpretation.
What really comes first ? Belief about God filters verse intepretation & expectation (cannot hear & obey what believe cannot be).
Thankful for discussions with you and @Wolfgang so my describing translation process changed to intersection of original language meaning and target language within bounds of translator's believability. Assertion is translators will not express in a translation what they do not believe.
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus postSmiling
What is the primary theological difference between tritheism (belief in three distinct gods) and triunity ?
I don't use either of those terms, and am not familiar with their meanings, so I have no substantive response to your question.
What is the primary theological difference between monotheism (belief in a single god) and triunity ?
I don't use the term "triunity" and am not familiar with its meaning in a way that equips me to respond to your question.
Observation is reference to the classic theological term lacks personal insight (plus suspect our term understandings are significantly different)
See above.
How is Jesus different from human prophets that spoke by authority of the One God ? e.g. Hebrews 3:1-6 comparison of Moses and Jesus
Jesus self-identifies as what I take to be a human prophet (Matthew 13.57; notice context of saying as well as reference to "his family") In my view, what makes him different from other human prophets is his calling from God to be the Messiah/Christ, the Son of God.
How could Jesus be completely without sin ? 1 Peter 1:19 (contrasts with parents that have terrible two stories about sin nature in children)
I personally don't think he was completely without sin, but that's for another thread. If he was sinless, then it must be remembered that with God all things are possible.
How many teacher(s)/lord(s) to obey ? Are Words spoken by Jesus separate from who Jesus is ?
On matters of faith and life, the disciples obeyed - and we obey - one specific Lord and teacher.
Yes, Jesus' words are separate from who he is, just as the words you and I speak are not who we are.
Humanly cannot make claim recorded in Luke 10:18 so please explain how Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven.
In context, that saying reads to me as a figure of speech. The disciples have reported their successful battles against demons when using Jesus' name, which prompts Jesus to characterize their successes as the fall of Satan, the prince of demons. In other words, I don't think Jesus is saying he saw a physical Satan fall from heaven. Instead, he's acknowledging/celebrating the magnitude of the disciples' mission trips via a figure of speech.
What really comes first ? Belief about God filters verse intepretation & expectation (cannot hear & obey what believe cannot be).
Clearly, personal belief plays a role in one's engagement with the biblical text. However in my experience, I've been both willing and able to acknowledge meanings of texts that challenge my beliefs. On the issue of who Jesus is, my views come directly from the text. I claim that the VAST majority of texts on the subject support my view that Jesus is not God. I acknowledge the existence of a small number of texts that challenge my view, but only a very small number.
Before I completed a years-long intentional study of the issue, I was a devoted Trinitarian. It was my study of the text that changed my views, and NOT my views that changed my study of the text.
Interestingly, after the first six or sessions of the Sunday group I'm leading through what will be a months/years-long Christological study, members of the group are making the same observations I do as THEY encounter the biblical text. THEY'RE pointing out the language in the verses. THEY'RE noting that Jesus can't be God, according to the texts we're examining (and we're looking at 150 Gospels passages, as part one of our study). Most group members came to the study thinking Jesus was God. It's the text that's changing their view.
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What is the primary theological difference between monotheism (belief in a single god) and triunity ?
@Bill_Coley I don't use the term "triunity" and am not familiar with its meaning in a way that equips me to respond to your question.
Assertion does not match your usage of "Trinitarian" (believer in the doctrine of trinity/triunity) in this thread. Puzzled by evasive answer from one who desires non-evasive answers (includes counting how many times lacking direct response). From my heart perspective, assertion reflects confusion from a hurting heart. C.S. Lewis decribed father of lies as "the Bent One" (so inwardly bent selfish human can do more damage/evil).
How is Jesus different from human prophets that spoke by authority of the One God ? e.g. Hebrews 3:1-6 comparison of Moses and Jesus
@Bill_Coley Jesus self-identifies as what I take to be a human prophet (Matthew 13.57; notice context of saying as well as reference to "his family") In my view, what makes him different from other human prophets is his calling from God to be the Messiah/Christ, the Son of God.
Matthew 13:53-56 & 58 show unbelief by those in hometown synagogue, which prevented them from receiving God's blessings through Jesus.
Please explain Matthew 7:28-29 about teaching of Jesus (phrase: "Thus says the Lord" is not in the "Sermon on the Mount" nor in any teachings by Jesus).
How could Jesus be completely without sin ? 1 Peter 1:19 (contrasts with parents that have terrible two stories about sin nature in children)
@Bill_Coley I personally don't think he was completely without sin, but that's for another thread. If he was sinless, then it must be remembered that with God all things are possible.
Related to this thread is: If Jesus is a sinner (not God), then he cannot be the Holy sacrifice for all the sin of the world (as the lamb of God per John 1:29). If Jesus is not God (a sinner), then he would need a blood sacrifice for his own sins (commending soul to God on the cross would not provide a substitutionary sacrifice for sin). If Jesus is God, then Hebrews describes tremendous hope from the one sacrifice (Hebrews 7:15-28 High Priest forever) that is substantially different than preceding sacrifices. Ephesians 1:3-14 is one long sentence in Greek, which has two verbs in present tense (continuous action in present time): being redeemed (freedom purchased) by Jesus' blood (Ephesians 1:7) and The Spirit is being God's guarantee (Ephesians 1:14).
How many teacher(s)/lord(s) to obey ? Are Words spoken by Jesus separate from who Jesus is ?
@Bill_Coley On matters of faith and life, the disciples obeyed - and we obey - one specific Lord and teacher.
For Jewish insights about disciples of Jesus, recommend reading Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewishness of Jesus Can Transform Your Faith and Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewish Words of Jesus Can Change Your Life
Daily repetition by Jesus and disciples included The Shema: Deuteronomy 6:4-9, Deuteronomy 11:13-21, Numbers 15:37-41
@Bill_Coley Yes, Jesus' words are separate from who he is, just as the words you and I speak are not who we are.
Please explain Jesus teaching in Matthew 15:18 about words spoken from heart defiling humans.
Humanly cannot make claim recorded in Luke 10:18 so please explain how Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven.
@Bill_Coley In context, that saying reads to me as a figure of speech. The disciples have reported their successful battles against demons when using Jesus' name, which prompts Jesus to characterize their successes as the fall of Satan, the prince of demons. In other words, I don't think Jesus is saying he saw a physical Satan fall from heaven. Instead, he's acknowledging/celebrating the magnitude of the disciples' mission trips via a figure of speech.
Context includes Luke 10:20 (NLT) But don’t rejoice because evil spirits obey you; rejoice because your names are registered in heaven.
Assertion for figure of speech reflects belief that Jesus is not God (so Jesus could not have literally seen Satan fall from heaven that preceded Adam & Eve being tempted in the Garden of Eden).
What really comes first ? Belief about God filters verse intepretation & expectation (cannot hear & obey what believe cannot be).
@Bill_Coley Clearly, personal belief plays a role in one's engagement with the biblical text. However in my experience, I've been both willing and able to acknowledge meanings of texts that challenge my beliefs. On the issue of who Jesus is, my views come directly from the text. I claim that the VAST majority of texts on the subject support my view that Jesus is not God. I acknowledge the existence of a small number of texts that challenge my view, but only a very small number.
Observation is the "small number" are now rationalized away so can maintain belief that Jesus is not God. Bible truth is not an election where majority rules.
@Bill_Coley Before I completed a years-long intentional study of the issue, I was a devoted Trinitarian. It was my study of the text that changed my views, and NOT my views that changed my study of the text.
What is your "truth" criteria for study ? Jesus did not love American style so lacks arrogant American style of expression. Hence "perfect" opportunity (per Western thinking) to express being God was not done that way in an ancient Jewish culture.
@Bill_Coley Interestingly, after the first six or sessions of the Sunday group I'm leading through what will be a months/years-long Christological study, members of the group are making the same observations I do as THEY encounter the biblical text. THEY'RE pointing out the language in the verses. THEY'RE noting that Jesus can't be God, according to the texts we're examining (and we're looking at 150 Gospels passages, as part one of our study). Most group members came to the study thinking Jesus was God. It's the text that's changing their view.
Reading, weeping, praying while being saddened by prophetic fulfillment of apostacy (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Hebrews 5:11-6:12, 1 Timothy 4:1-5) as the father of lies ramps up deception. Question for Sunday group is how much time is spent praying & reading Bible during the week ? Does Sunday group include praying Psalm 119:18 before considering scripture verses ?
Keep Smiling 😀
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What is the primary theological difference between monotheism (belief in a single god) and triunity ?
@Bill_Coley I don't use the term "triunity" and am not familiar with its meaning in a way that equips me to respond to your question.
Assertion does not match your usage of "Trinitarian" (believer in the doctrine of trinity/triunity) in this thread. Puzzled by evasive answer from one who desires non-evasive answers (includes counting how many times lacking direct response). From my heart perspective, assertion reflects confusion from a hurting heart. C.S. Lewis decribed father of lies as "the Bent One" (so inwardly bent selfish human can do more damage/evil).
No evasion. No "hurting heart." No "inwardly bent selfish human." In my previous post, I said I don't use the term "triunity." That was true. I don't use that term. In your most recent post, you make clear that for you "triunity" is a synonym for "trinity." If you revisit your original question about "triunity," you'll no doubt notice that in it you offered no such indication of synonymity.
In my view, the principal theological difference between monotheism and trinitarianism is in the nature and number of the one God's manifestations.
Sometimes the thing a poster posts - e.g. "I don't use that term" - is true and is best taken at face value. Sometimes - make that, almost always - judgmental assertions of "hurting heart"-rooted "confusion" in people you know only from their online forum posts are a bad idea.
Matthew 13:53-56 & 58 show unbelief by those in hometown synagogue, which prevented them from receiving God's blessings through Jesus.
My intention in quoting Matthew 13.57 was simply to demonstrate that Jesus self-identified as a prophet.
Please explain Matthew 7:28-29 about teaching of Jesus (phrase: "Thus says the Lord" is not in the "Sermon on the Mount" nor in any teachings by Jesus).
I don't know what there is to explain in those two verses. The crowd is impressed by the content and presentation of Jesus' teaching; they receive him as one who teaches with authority. (God-given authority, I think it's clear)
In my search, the phrase "thus says the Lord" appears only once in the entire NT, in the NRSV's take on Acts 15.17, in which James quotes Amos 9.11. In the quoted verse, for what it's worth, the reference is clearly to God, both in its original setting and in James' use of it.
Related to this thread is: If Jesus is a sinner (not God), then he cannot be the Holy sacrifice for all the sin of the world (as the lamb of God per John 1:29). If Jesus is not God (a sinner), then he would need a blood sacrifice for his own sins (commending soul to God on the cross would not provide a substitutionary sacrifice for sin). If Jesus is God, then Hebrews describes tremendous hope from the one sacrifice (Hebrews 7:15-28High Priest forever) that is substantially different than preceding sacrifices. Ephesians 1:3-14 is one long sentence in Greek, which has two verbs in present tense (continuous action in present time): being redeemed (freedom purchased) by Jesus' blood (Ephesians 1:7) and The Spirit is being God's guarantee (Ephesians 1:14).
I respect your views on the issue of Jesus' sinlessness, but as I said in my previous post, I think that's a subject for another thread, one to which I don't feel like contributing.
Please explain Jesus teaching in Matthew 15:18 about words spoken from heart defiling humans.
Again I'm not sure what there is to explain about the verse you ask about. Jesus says it's not what goes into us (e.g. food) that can cause or reflect defilement; it's what comes out of us (e.g. our words). Obviously, Jesus has in mind a certain kind or character of words. Not ALL words defile. In Matthew 15.19 he cites words that communicate "evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander" as examples.
Context includes Luke 10:20 (NLT) But don’t rejoice because evil spirits obey you; rejoice because your names are registered in heaven.
Assertion for figure of speech reflects belief that Jesus is not God (so Jesus could not have literally seen Satan fall from heaven that preceded Adam & Eve being tempted in the Garden of Eden).
My Christological beliefs played no role in my analysis of Luke 10.18.
Observation is the "small number" are now rationalized away so can maintain belief that Jesus is not God. Bible truth is not an election where majority rules.
If I "[rationalize] away]" a "small number" of texts on the subject of whether Jesus is God, what is it that YOU do with the "vast majority" of texts whose most reasonable interpretation is clearly that Jesus is not God? Rationalize? Ignore? Overlook? Distract attention away from? Openly refuse to consider?
What is your "truth" criteria for study ? Jesus did not love American style so lacks arrogant American style of expression. Hence "perfect" opportunity (per Western thinking) to express being God was not done that way in an ancient Jewish culture.
Arrogance is not and has not been an issue in my Christological journey. I have repeatedly and intentionally engaged the biblical text on the subject of Jesus and God, and have reached the conclusions I share in these threads and to others when the matter arises. I assume that you too have repeatedly and intentionally engaged the biblical text on the subject in order to reach the conclusions that you've reached. I also assume that arrogance is not and has not been an issue in your Christological journey.
Reading, weeping, praying while being saddened by prophetic fulfillment of apostacy (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Hebrews 5:11-6:12, 1 Timothy 4:1-5) as the father of lies ramps up deception. Question for Sunday group is how much time is spent praying & reading Bible during the week ? Does Sunday group include praying Psalm 119:18 before considering scripture verses ?
You're of course welcome to the reactions of your choice to my Sunday group's engagement with the biblical text. I praise God for the insight and discernment that's so evident in their comments.
I feel no need desire to respond to your questions for and about the group given the dismissive, even insulting, character of your comments about our efforts.
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Related to this thread is: If Jesus is a sinner (not God), then he cannot be the Holy sacrifice for all the sin of the world (as the lamb of God per John 1:29). If Jesus is not God (a sinner), then he would need a blood sacrifice for his own sins (commending soul to God on the cross would not provide a substitutionary sacrifice for sin).
Your false assumption is that man cannot be without sin ... and yet, the first man, Adam, was obviously without sin, NOT a sinner, and he also was NOT God. Man is NOT born a sinner ... man BECOMES a sinner when he commits sin, which all except Jesus have done (cp Rom 5:12 --- "all HAVE SINNED"! Note carefully => the text does not say "all are sinners (from birth and before they even were able to discern good and evil)"!
Jesus DID NOT COMMIT sin ... thus he remained without sin.
If Jesus is God, then Hebrews describes tremendous hope from the one sacrifice (Hebrews 7:15-28 High Priest forever) that is substantially different than preceding sacrifices.
No, if Jesus were God, he would not have any blood to shed, and he could not be the one sacrifice for sin ... remember, God IS SPIRIT, humans are FLESH AND BLOOD !!!
@Bill_Coley Interestingly, after the first six or sessions of the Sunday group I'm leading through what will be a months/years-long Christological study, members of the group are making the same observations I do as THEY encounter the biblical text. THEY'RE pointing out the language in the verses. THEY'RE noting that Jesus can't be God, according to the texts we're examining (and we're looking at 150 Gospels passages, as part one of our study). Most group members came to the study thinking Jesus was God. It's the text that's changing their view.
KeepSmiling4_Jesus Reading, weeping,, praying while being saddened by prophetic fulfillment of apostacy (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Hebrews 5:11-6:12, 1 Timothy 4:1-5) as the father of lies ramps up deception. Question for Sunday group is how much time is spent praying & reading Bible during the week ? Does Sunday group include praying Psalm 119:18 before considering scripture verses ?
These remarks by KeepSmiling4Jesus concerning the study group conducted by Bill_Coley are inappropriate sly slimy giving the appearance of "oh so good" and "oh so religious" but spit out venom under the disguise of representing "light" ....
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@Bill_Coley In your most recent post, you make clear that for you "triunity" is a synonym for "trinity." If you revisit your original question about "triunity," you'll no doubt notice that in it you offered no such indication of synonymity.
My earlier question was "Please clarify difference(s) between trinitarian, tritheism, and monotheism." that had your reply
@Bill_Coley Trinitarian refers to the classic theological term with which we're all familiar.
that implies your knowledge about trinity being synonymous with triunity (from classical theological definition of Trinitarian). Reason for earlier question is variety of assertions that echo pieces of trinitarian, tritheism, and/or monotheism (leaving me puzzled about view beliefs).
@Bill_Coley In my view, the principal theological difference between monotheism and trinitarianism is in the nature and number of the one God's manifestations.
Concur with perception.
@Bill_Coley Sometimes - make that, almost always - judgmental assertions of "hurting heart"-rooted "confusion" in people you know only from their online forum posts are a bad idea.
My heart perspective recognizes online forum posts lacking expression of God's Holy Righteous Fruit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humilty, Self-Control (Galatians 5:22-23). Recent online posts in other threads about current topics provide "hurting heart" examples. Personally engaged in daily spiritual warfare between my old sinful self (with professional button pusher adversary who always wants to disrupt me from loving God in any way possible) and my new Holy relationship in One God. Humanly trying to write Truth in Love using kind words along with desire to be gracious and interesting. My apologies for proving my human words still need improvement. Agree with One God in Ezekiel 18 about having no desire for anyone to die in their sin.
@Bill_Coley Before I completed a years-long intentional study of the issue, I was a devoted Trinitarian. It was my study of the text that changed my views, and NOT my views that changed my study of the text.
Reminds me of first love loss and warning in Revelation 2:1-7 (losing first love is another "hurting heart" example).
FYI: frequent use of first person pronoun "I" reminds me of Isaiah 14:12-15 (learned long ago to test "I" thoughts due to spiritual adversary)
Matthew 13:53-56 & 58 show unbelief by those in hometown synagogue, which prevented them from receiving God's blessings through Jesus.
@Bill_Coley My intention in quoting Matthew 13.57 was simply to demonstrate that Jesus self-identified as a prophet.
Jesus rebuked Jews in His own hometown for being deeply offended by Him and refusing to believe in Him (using culturally correct words for unbelievers to understand). An ongoing valuable lesson from Fee & Stuart's "How to read the Bible for All its Worth" is different genre styles have different contextual boundaries for engaging text. Ancient Jewish culture understood unified thought & action (hear & obey), which is different than Western way of thinking that ideas are separate from action.
Please explain Matthew 7:28-29 about teaching of Jesus (phrase: "Thus says the Lord" is not in the "Sermon on the Mount" nor in any teachings by Jesus).
@Bill_Coley I don't know what there is to explain in those two verses. The crowd is impressed by the content and presentation of Jesus' teaching; they receive him as one who teaches with authority. (God-given authority, I think it's clear)
@Bill_Coley In my search, the phrase "thus says the Lord" appears only once in the entire NT, in the NRSV's take on Acts 15.17, in which James quotes Amos 9.11. In the quoted verse, for what it's worth, the reference is clearly to God, both in its original setting and in James' use of it.
Concur words of Jesus are words of One God. Bible translations AMP, ESV, MEV, NABRE, NASB95, NET, NKJV, & RSV have many verses with phrase "Thus says the Lord" in OT with one NT use in Acts 15:17. Also remember Lord being said to Jesus (me) in Matthew 7:21-23 (NLT) “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
Observation is the "small number" are now rationalized away so can maintain belief that Jesus is not God. Bible truth is not an election where majority rules.
@Bill_Coley If I "[rationalize] away]" a "small number" of texts on the subject of whether Jesus is God, what is it that YOU do with the "vast majority" of texts whose most reasonable interpretation is clearly that Jesus is not God? Rationalize? Ignore? Overlook? Distract attention away from? Openly refuse to consider?
CD discussions have included many verses, which has yet to show me one whose most reasonable interpretation is clearly that Jesus is not God.
What is the "truth" criteria for most reasonable ?
Related to this thread is: If Jesus is a sinner (not God), then he cannot be the Holy sacrifice for all the sin of the world (as the lamb of God per John 1:29). If Jesus is not God (a sinner), then he would need a blood sacrifice for his own sins (commending soul to God on the cross would not provide a substitutionary sacrifice for sin).
@Wolfgang Your false assumption is that man cannot be without sin ... and yet, the first man, Adam, was obviously without sin, NOT a sinner, and he also was NOT God. Man is NOT born a sinner ... man BECOMES a sinner when he commits sin, which all except Jesus have done (cp Rom 5:12 --- "all HAVE SINNED"! Note carefully => the text does not say "all are sinners (from birth and before they even were able to discern good and evil)"!
@Wolfgang Jesus DID NOT COMMIT sin ... thus he remained without sin.
Psalm 58:3 (ESV) The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Terrible two stories from a variety of parents confirms humans are born with a sin nature that knows how to put self before God & others.
Genesis 1:26 (ESV) Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. ..." so God breathed life into dust to create Adam without sin followed by Genesis 2:16-17 command. DNA in Adam has X and Y chromosomes, which allowed God to remove a bone from Adam to fashion Eve (by removing Y chromosome and doubling X) so Eve is literally bone of my bones from Adam. After subtle temptation, Eve and Adam choose to sin by disobeying God's command, which made them sinners (by their own choice). God's human design for human children includes sin nature inheritance from male sperm. Matthew 1:18-25 describes Jesus conception by Holy Spirit so Jesus did not inherit sin nature from Adam. In human flesh, The Word (God) choose to keep Loving God first, which included becoming the sinless sacrifice for all humanity.
If Jesus is God, then Hebrews describes tremendous hope from the one sacrifice (Hebrews 7:15-28 High Priest forever) that is substantially different than preceding sacrifices.
@Wolfgang No, if Jesus were God, he would not have any blood to shed, and he could not be the one sacrifice for sin ... remember, God IS SPIRIT, humans are FLESH AND BLOOD !!!
Jesus was both fully God and fully Man: literal fulfilment of John 1 where The Word (God) became flesh and dwelt among us. In fact, the blood of Jesus could be substantially different than all other humans who have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Holy blood of Jesus could have a total of 24 chromosomes: 1 pair with 22 singles from Mary (with special programming to allow 22 singles to be used).
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
My earlier question was "Please clarify difference(s) between trinitarian, tritheism, and monotheism." that had your reply
...that implies your knowledge about trinity being synonymous with triunity (from classical theological definition of Trinitarian). Reason for earlier question is variety of assertions that echo pieces of trinitarian, tritheism, and/or monotheism (leaving me puzzled about view beliefs).
Again I tell you that I don't use the term "triunity," had not even encountered the term when you asked me about it in your contention that I had evaded a question. Hence, there is no way that a response of mine that made no mention of a term I had never encountered could have implied knowledge of that term's synonymity with the term "trinity." You clearly inferred that I had such knowledge, but your inference was mistaken.
Concur with perception.
Common ground is a good thing.
My heart perspective recognizes online forum posts lacking expression of God's Holy Righteous Fruit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humilty, Self-Control (Galatians 5:22-23). Recent online posts in other threads about current topics provide "hurting heart" examples. Personally engaged in daily spiritual warfare between my old sinful self (with professional button pusher adversary who always wants to disrupt me from loving God in any way possible) and my new Holy relationship in One God. Humanly trying to write Truth in Love using kind words along with desire to be gracious and interesting. My apologies for proving my human words still need improvement. Agree with One God in Ezekiel 18 about having no desire for anyone to die in their sin.
My concern and grievance is that this latest salvo was one among several such needlessly personal and judgmental responses to me that you have included in your posts in our exchanges over the months. Avoiding such inappropriate posts in my view is quite simple: Obey slavishly the CD expectation that we will "criticize ideas, not people." Don't criticize/question my faith, my spirituality, or my allegiance to Christ. Stay away from me as a person or a person of faith, and stick solely to issues. Disapprove of my views, but not of me.
Reminds me of first love loss and warning in Revelation 2:1-7 (losing first love is another "hurting heart" example).
FYI: frequent use of first person pronoun "I" reminds me of Isaiah 14:12-15 (learned long ago to test "I" thoughts due to spiritual adversary)
My testimony was that my study of Scripture informs my beliefs about what Scripture says. How such a sensible approach reminds you of lost first loves in Revelation or the collection of first person pronouns in Isaiah 14 is not at all clear to me.
Jesus rebuked Jews in His own hometown for being deeply offended by Him and refusing to believe in Him (using culturally correct words for unbelievers to understand). An ongoing valuable lesson from Fee & Stuart's "How to read the Bible for All its Worth" is different genre styles have different contextual boundaries for engaging text. Ancient Jewish culture understood unified thought & action (hear & obey), which is different than Western way of thinking that ideas are separate from action.
This information from you does not change the truth of my original claim: that Jesus self-identified as a prophet in Matthew 13.57.
Concur words of Jesus are words of One God. Bible translations AMP, ESV, MEV, NABRE, NASB95, NET, NKJV, & RSV have many verses with phrase "Thus says the Lord" in OT with one NT use in Acts 15:17. Also remember Lord being said to Jesus (me) in Matthew 7:21-23 (NLT) “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
Jesus speaks about and for the one God; Jesus does NOT speak AS the one God.
The reference to "the Lord" in Acts 15.17 is to God as given voice by the prophet Amos; the reference is not to Jesus.
In the verses from Matthew 7 that you quoted, note that Jesus indeed refers to himself as "Lord," but then specifies that it is his Father's will, NOT his own will, that people must do to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In my view, in so doing, Jesus distinguishes between himself and God. (see Matthew 12.48-50 for basically the same distinction)
CD discussions have included many verses, which has yet to show me one whose most reasonable interpretation is clearly that Jesus is not God.
What is the "truth" criteria for most reasonable ?
When in Acts 2.22-24 Peter tells his audience that Jesus is a "man" to whom "God" attested by doing "mighty works and wonders and signs" "through him," what is the most reasonable interpretation of whether Peter himself believes Jesus is God?
Jesus was both fully God and fully Man: literal fulfilment of John 1 where The Word (God) became flesh and dwelt among us. In fact, the blood of Jesus could be substantially different than all other humans who have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Holy blood of Jesus could have a total of 24 chromosomes: 1 pair with 22 singles from Mary (with special programming to allow 22 singles to be used).
On what biblical and/or scientific basis do you offer this speculation about the number of pairs of chromosomes Jesus had?
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FYI: frequent use of first person pronoun "I" reminds me of Isaiah 14:12-15 (learned long ago to test "I" thoughts due to spiritual adversary)
Does this explanation have something to do with your somewhat particular style of writing by which you always omit "I" at the beginning of sentences ??? perhaps you do not
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