Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?
Comments
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And again, in the text, the words "I am" serve as a response to a question, not as a declaration of deity. The exchange follows the same format:
"Are you X?"
"You say that I am."
Time and again in our exchanges you have attached to the words "I am" a role that in the text they do not play (John 8.58 is an interesting variation on this theme, but it is alone in such a category).
Well stated. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus appears to have a severe phobia of using the words "I" and ""am" in what he writes. He avoids using them ... perhaps because he fears that someone might think @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus would be claiming to be God?
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Not seven 'lambs'. It should say 'lamps'. You couldn't tell that was a very minor typo? You didn't know that I meant lamps? It is what the scripture says. The scripture says seven lamps are the eyes and are the spirits of the lamb.
You are wrong when you say the stars are not angels. The scriptures plainly say the stars are angels.
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My point is not that the phrases don't mean the same thing. My point is that the two phrases don't refer to the same entity. On what basis do I say that? The content and context of the respective texts
Just tell me how they are different. that is what you need to do.
But Jesus DID die.
- Jesus says he died.
- Peter tells people in Jerusalem that they killed Jesus.
- Peter tells his audience that they killed Jesus, but God "raised him from the dead."
- Paul reports the killing of Jesus.
Well, Jesus' Spirit is God's Spirit, and spirits don't die.
The physical body dies, but spirits don't die.
There is scriptures that tell us spirits don't die.
Is this your subtle way of acknowledging - you might say "admitting" - the truth of my assertion that there is no NT verse that directly says Jesus is God?
Jesus doesn't reveal his divinity; he testifies to GOD'S divinity. (e.g. John 17.3-4)
The scriptures do say Jesus is God.
Jesus is the Word of God, and was God, and came in the flesh. You know those scriptures?
Revelation 7.17 - While "the Lamb" is the shepherd who leads those who died in the great tribulation (Rev 7.14) to "springs of life-giving water," it is "God" who wipes away every tear from their eyes.
Revelation 22.1 - The throne is of "God and of the Lamb." The verse contains no reference to the "Father."
God the Father came in the flesh and died for us in the flesh.
I've already addressed this issue in multiple posts, so for now I will only note that nowhere in Revelation does John express reliance on Isaianic texts, and that in those Isaianic texts, the references are to the "LORD," to "Israel's King and Redeemer," to "the LORD of Heaven's Armies," and to "God;" they contain no reference to "God the Father."
These scriptures show Jesus calling himself the First and the Last,, and God the Father calls Himself the same in Isaiah.
The New Testament is the Old Testament prophecies revealed.
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God the Father was in heaven as a Spirit in unapproachable light, and the Almighty God at the same time came as a man in the flesh.
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@YourTruthGod posted:
Not seven 'lambs'. It should say 'lamps'. You couldn't tell that was a very minor typo? You didn't know that I meant lamps?
Welcome back to the thread. It's been awhile.
As for your "very minor typo," evidently I didn't know you meant "lamps." You and I might disagree about this, but in general, I don't think readers are responsible for the content created by posters. My typos are solely my responsibility, and yours are solely yours. (see below)
It is what the scripture says. The scripture says seven lamps are the eyes and are the spirits of the lamb.
My ORIGINAL question to you asked for textual support for your claim that "[t]he seven spirits are the angels over the churches in the New Testament."
You are wrong when you say the stars are not angels. The scriptures plainly say the stars are angels.
Yes, I WAS wrong when I claimed that nowhere does the text say the stars are the angels. Of course Rev 1.20 says exactly that. Sadly - but ironically, given your latest post - that's not what I meant to claim. In keeping with my initial question, quoted above, I MEANT to claim that nowhere does the text say "the seven spirits are the angels over the churches in the New Testament," as you had claimed previously. My error was in fact also a typo, but one that you had no responsibility to notice or account for. I got the "seven" and "angels" references correct in my previous post, but not the "spirits" reference. My mistake.
I notice you have now made additional posts, but their content, too, dates back to an exchange we had more than a month ago, so I will have to wait til have time to reacquaint myself with their subject matter before I offer comments.
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The exegetical whack-a-mole continues.
The Bible says Jesus' hands and the Father's hands are the same.
Don't you believe the scriptures?
In John 20.17, the resurrected Jesus confirms this essence of the Isaiah text - that we all have the same God/Father - when he tells Mary that he is "ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." That is, he tells Mary that he and his followers have the same God/Father... which, of course, rules out that he could be the Father.
God the Father came as a man and the man was going back to the Father.
In the prologue of John's Gospel, that through which all things were made is The Word - the logos - not Jesus.
Jesus is the Word of God, and it is his name.
I read this verse and the rest of Colossians 1.15-20 as a tribute to Christ, the glorified and risen savior. To understand the author's take on the question of whether Jesus is God, I think we must read the verse in its context. To wit:
- Christ is the of God, not God godself.
- Christ, created everything.
- God was pleased Christ
, - Christ, God reconciled everything to godself. Christ's blood God made peace with everything in heaven and on earth.
Conclusion: For the author of Colossians, God works through Christ, which, of course, means God and Christ cannot be the same. (c.f. Romans 1.5; 2.16; 3.24; 6.11,23; 2 Cor 1.5; 5.18,21; Gal 3.14; Eph 3.11; Philippians 3.14; 2 Tim 1.9; 1 Pet 1.21)
The scripture plainly says all things were made through him.
Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
Yes. God saves through Jesus, which does NOT mean God IS Jesus.
It means God came as a son of man.
The "Rock" in Deuteronomy 32 is God (Deut 32.3-4), who creates people (Deut 32.6), who established boundaries between peoples (Deut 32.8), to whom the people of Israel belong (Deut 32.9), who guided, nourished, and fed them (Deut 32.12-14), whom Israel eventually abandoned (Deut 32.15).
The rock in 1 Corinthians 10 is symbol of what Paul believes to be the eternal Christ who accompanied the ancients in their journeys. Note in 1 Cor 10.5, Paul says even though the ancients were guided by a cloud and accompanied by an expression of Christ, God still was not pleased with their conduct. V.5 sets up the next section of the chapter, as Paul warns the Corinthians that God will also judge their craving of evil things (1 Cor 10.6), worship of idols (1 Cor 10.7), and sexual immorality (1 Cor 10.7)
Those observations made, important to our discussion is the fact that Paul makes no effort to identify the Christ he believes was present with the ancients (1 Cor 10.4) as the God who created, fed, and eventually abandoned (Deut 32.18).
Scriptures that say Jesus is God the Father:
Scripture says Jesus is the Rock.
Scripture says the Rock is God.
See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
God, not Jesus, is the speaker in Revelation 21.7.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
It is Jesus who gives to those who thirst. The Father and Jesus are the same.
John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
John 4:15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”
John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.
Revelation 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Yes, I read that Scripture, which does NOT say Jesus is our Father.
Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans? A mother, for one.
There is no scripture about mother God. You need to keep it God's Word.
Jesus says he will not leave them as orphans and that he will come to live with them.
The word "orphans" in this verse reflects a loss of support and companionship, not a loss of parents. The NLT employs the verb "abandon," as in Jesus tells his followers that though he will soon leave them in the physical sense, he will not abandon them - they will see him again and come to know that they are in him and he is in them (John 14.20)
Do you really want to subtract from God's Word?
The titles given in Isaiah 9.6 are to a child already born in Isaiah's time - "a child IS born to us" - a child whose birth is a sign of the truth of the prophet's declarations found at the beginning of the chapter ("The people who walk in darkness will see a great light" et al, Isaiah 9.1-5). The titles given in Isaiah 9.6 are used by Christians to help report and explain God's action in Christ, but in their original form, they did not refer to a child who would be born 700+ years later.
The Old Testament scriptures are about Jesus.
It is all a prophecy about Jesus.
It's worthy of note that no New Testament writer quotes Isaiah 9.6 or attaches the verse's titles to Jesus.
The scripture plainly says he will be called 'father'.
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Thank you for welcoming me back, Bill.
I didn't mean to stay away so long. I am glad to be able to come here and talk about God with you.
Sometimes it is so slow and I keep checking if anyone replies to what I have said and time goes by and there is nothing, so I get into other things.
As for the typo, mine is just a 'b' instead of a 'p'.
Yours is a bigger typo, no?
Maybe I don't understand what you keep asking me when I think I am explaining it.
Angels are called 'spirits' too, so that is why I said what I did.
I called the lamps 'angels', because the scriptures speak so much of seven angels, and since angel are also called spirits, and because the angels are spirits watching over the churches in the New Testament, and the angels are also before the throne of God, I believed these to be the same.
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@YourTruthGod wrote:
I called the lamps 'angels', because the scriptures speak so much of seven angels, and since angel are also called spirits, and because the angels are spirits watching over the churches in the New Testament, and the angels are also before the throne of God, I believed these to be the same.
Indeed ... that is what you believed .... but is "I believed ..." the same as "Scripture says ..." ???
@YourTruthGod wrote:
The scriptures do say Jesus is God.
Jesus is the Word of God, and was God, and came in the flesh. You know those scriptures?
The Scriptures do teach that they are the Word of God, They came in writing by God inspiring men of God. Now then, according to your manner of interpretation by which you claim that "scriptures do say Jesus is God", you would then say that the Bible (the Scriptures) is God ??
Do YOU know the Scriptures?
@YourTruthGod wrote:
The Bible says Jesus' hands and the Father's hands are the same.
Don't you believe the scriptures?
Where does the Bible say that Jesus' hands and the Father's hands are the same? Nowhere !! Does God -- Who is SPIRIT (cp. Jesus' words in John 4:24) -- even have "hands" in the literal sense?? No, He doesn't !! So then what about your claim concerning Jesus' literal hands and the Father's non-existent hands ??
I do believe the Scriptures ... however, it appears that you are the one who believes something that is not Scripture ....
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Indeed ... that is what you believed .... but is "I believed ..." the same as "Scripture says ..." ???
The SCRIPTURES DO SAY ANGELS ARE SPIRITS.
Hebrews 1:13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
The LAMPS are spirits.
Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
The Scriptures do teach that they are the Word of God, They came in writing by God inspiring men of God. Now then, according to your manner of interpretation by which you claim that "scriptures do say Jesus is God", you would then say that the Bible (the Scriptures) is God ??
You sound like you have no reasoning skills. I said the scriptures say the word was with God and WAS God and became flesh.
Is the Bible flesh?
The Bible is the written words of God.
Jesus' name is "The Word of God".
Where does the Bible say that Jesus' hands and the Father's hands are the same? Nowhere !! Does God -- Who is SPIRIT (cp. Jesus' words in John 4:24) -- even have "hands" in the literal sense?? No, He doesn't !! So then what about your claim concerning Jesus' literal hands and the Father's non-existent hands ??
I do believe the Scriptures ... however, it appears that you are the one who believes something that is not Scripture ....
Spirits have hands.
The Father's hands and Jesus' hands ARE THE SAME.
Everything was made through Jesus
1 Corinthians 8:6
Everything was made through God the Father.
Romans 11:36
Hebrews 2:10
The Father and Jesus' hands are the same hands:
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
Malachi 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
Psalms 22:16 KJV (16) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV (9) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Revelation 1:(7) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
(8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
These scriptures prove that God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son are the same one.
Their hands are the same and their hands were pierced.
This scripture proves that Jesus made the earth. There are also scriptures that show Jesus and the Father have the same hands.
Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.(NOTE: JESUS IS CALLED THE FIRST AND THE LAST, see REV 1:8.)
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.
These scriptures show that the Father God and Jesus are ‘I am he', and ‘the first and the last’, and that Jesus’ own hand laid the foundations of the earth’, ‘and right hand spread out the heavens, and Jesus' hands and the Father's are the same.
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@Wolfgang a little assistance for your considerations in an attempt to arrive at a correct understanding of the Hebrew term Elohim, quoted from an article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#With_singular_verb
Wikipedia articles lack author interaction with ideas in this thread. Also noted pluralis excellentiae includes Objections:
"Against this are objections such as that of the Hebrew grammarian and Messianic Jewish missionary C. W. H. Pauli (1863) that Gesenius had misunderstood the grammar and perpetuated a hoax.[7] Pauli writes, "Such a pluralis excellentiæ was, however, a thing unknown to Moses and the prophets. . . . kings throughout ת״ב״ד, (the Law, the Prophets. and the Hagiographa) speak in the singular, and not as modern kings in the plural. They do not say we, but I, command; as in Gen xli. 41 ; Dan. iii. 29 ; Ezra i. 2, etc., etc." [8]
The first "Royal We" is The Father & Jesus before creation: "... the glory that I had at your side before the world existed" John 17:5 (LEB)
@Wolfgang As I had mentioned before, there is nothing plural in the true God, the God of the Bible .... no plurality of anything, rather HE is ONE SINGULAR PERSON/BEING.
Faith idea "there is nothing plural in the true God, the God of the Bible .... no plurality of anything" simply repeats implication of One God wrongly inspiring 2,310 plural Elohim uses in the Old Covenant with 51 singular Elohe uses for God (ratio about 45 to 1). If "the true God, the God of the Bible .... no plurality of anything, rather HE is ONE SINGULAR PERSON/BEING." is correct, then plural Elohim should have been singular Elohe.
The most important Biblical commandment in Deuteronomy 6:4-9 begins with:
שְׁמַ֖ע Hear (& Obey) verb, Qal, imperative, second person, masculine, singular
יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל Israel noun, proper, singular, absolute
יְהוָ֥ה YHWH noun, proper, masculine, singular, absolute
אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ Elohenu (plural God of us) Elohim noun, common, masculine, plural, construct & our pronoun, suffixed, first person, plural
יְהוָ֥ה׀ YHWH noun, proper, masculine, singular, absolute
אֶחָֽד׃ Echad (Unique, One) numeral, cardinal, singular, absolute
My belief assumption is One God being literally true. Hence my description of plural unified God reflects Deuteronomy 6:4 that understands One True God to be One Spiritual Being whose uniqueness has plural voices. Remembering "God is Love" in 1 John 4:16 provides purpose for Unique God's nature to be three voices for Holy Love expression that includes every aspect of Holy Righteous Fruit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control. As a human am learning how to love myself as God loves me (to enable me to love my neighbor as myself), which lacks outward expression of me loving myself. To fully express Love, One True Unique God chose to be three voices (in One Spirit), which enabled "The Word of God" Spiritual portion to leave Royal Throne in Heaven (at the side of The Father) for temporary dwelling in a human body to be freely offered as a Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice. The blood of Jesus redeems human sinners from sin so believers can Love God. Amazing design of our plural unified God is creating humans in the image of God having spiritual inheritance internally from God's breath of life into dust, which can choose to connect/live in One God's commUnity of Love :) My belief is consistent with Matthew 28:18-20 (LEB) So the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated for them. And when they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.” that has singular name with three voices: Father, Son, Holy Spirit => plural unified God
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Please be specific: name a seed "sown on the ground" by humans for agricultural use during time of Jesus that is smaller than a mustard seed.
@Bill_Coley Orchid seeds are smaller.
Wikipedia article => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchidaceae includes:
Orchids native to the Mediterranean are depicted on the Ara Pacis in Rome, until now the only known instance of orchids in ancient art, and the earliest in European art.
Partially answers question as orchids were known in Rome during the time of Jesus, but says nothing about human cultivation where Jesus lived. Also learned orchids have a few thousand varieties: some are cultivated "on the ground" while others are cultivated "in the air" (aerial roots).
@Bill_Coley Jesus doesn't say the mustard seed is the smallest of "all seeds planted in the ground." He says it is the smallest of "all seeds." Orchid seeds are among "all seeds," and are smaller than mustard seeds. [ESV and NRSV translate the phrase as "the smallest of all the seeds on earth." NIV is almost identical to that translation. The LEB is an outlier if in fact it means to limit Jesus' assertion to seeds planted by people in the ground, which I'm not convinced it does.]
Logos Bible software Reverse Interlinear Greek alignment in NLT shows "It is the smallest * * * of all seeds" * * * => ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς (not in NLT)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jesus knowing 'God's commandment is eternal life' is consistent with Jesus being God, who was having God's Glory and Love before creation.
@Bill_Coley No part of your response here addresses the question I asked so I will ask it again: If Jesus was God, wouldn't he have known about all seeds, or do you claim that as God he was not as omniscient as the God he addressed as "Father"?
Repeating follow-up question: "Did God The Father err in parable wording for Jesus to speak ?" (John 12:44-50 Jesus chose to obey The Father)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The verb "may be" in verse 22 is a subjunctive, which is conditional. In John 17:20 is the condition for experiencing verse 22: believe in me, Jesus (OR be believing to express noun & verbal aspects of believe participle in present tense: continous action in present time).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The child in me enjoys cuddling in One God's commUnity of Love (where One God always was, is, and will be while my human spirit is connected with God's Holy Loving presence when my choice to love most is God, but Holy presence quietly leaves when my thoughts/actions focus on sin).
@Bill_Coley The intended audience of Jesus' prayer for "perfect unity" does not change the meaning of his phrase "perfect unity." WHOEVER Jesus has in mind as he prays that they be "one," it's clear that he believes those people are capable of the same oneness he has with God, which strongly suggests he does not mean he is God when he claims he and the Father are "one."
Two become One in marriage. Looking forward for me being part of the bride becoming One in Lord God Jesus during Heavenly Holy matrimony: And I heard something like the sound of a great crowd and something like the sound of many waters and something like the sound of powerful thunder, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord God, the All-Powerful, reigns! Let us rejoice and be glad and give him the glory, because the wedding celebration of the Lamb has come, and his bride has prepared herself. And it has been granted to her that she be dressed in bright, clean fine linen (for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints). And he said to me, “Write: Blessed are those who are invited to the banquet of the wedding celebration of the Lamb!” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” And I fell down before his feet to worship him, and he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 19:6-10 (LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jeremiah 23:1-4 (LEB) shows translation change to future tense "will" without any words indicating how long: e.g. between punishment and gathering remnant.
@Bill_Coley The text of Jeremiah 23 gives what I view is a clear sense of timing of the actions it offers from God.
* Jer 23.1 - Sorrow awaits then-current shepherds. There's no sense in the verse that said sorrow will arrive in their afterlives. Instead, the sorrow will arrive in their lifetimes.
* Jer 23.2-3 - God pronounces judgment on the shepherds for the evil they have done - again, in their time - and promises to gather "the remnant of [God's] flock" from the countries to which God has driven them. In context, it makes no sense that God would promise to restore justice and responsible shepherds to the remnant, but only after another 600 years pass. Hence, the promised "righteous descendant from King David's line" is most likely someone of his day.
Puzzled by human reasoning about God's prophetic timing that concludes "most likely someone of his day", which is not what the text says. One True Lord God's timing perspective: 1 day is as 1,000 years and 1,000 years is as 1 day. Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that one day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will disappear with a rushing noise, and the celestial bodies will be destroyed by being burned up, and the earth and the deeds done on it will be disclosed. Because all these things are being destroyed in this way, what sort of people must you be in holy behavior and godliness, while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by being burned up and the celestial bodies will melt as they are consumed by heat! But according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness resides. 2 Peter 3:8-13 (LEB) alludes to a prayer of Moses: O Lord, you have been our help in all generations. Before the mountains were born and you brought forth the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, you are God. You return man to the dust, saying, “Return, O sons of man.” For a thousand years in your eyes are like yesterday when it passes, or like a watch in the night. You sweep them away like a flood. They fall asleep. In the morning they are like grass that sprouts anew. In the morning it blossoms and sprouts anew; by evening it withers and dries up. For we are brought to an end by your anger, and we hasten off by your wrath. You have put our iniquities before you, our hidden sins into the light of your countenance. For all of our days dwindle away in your rage; we complete our years like a sigh. As for the days of our years, within them are seventy years or if by strength eighty years, and their pride is trouble and disaster, for it passes quickly and we fly away. Who knows the strength of your anger, and your rage consistent with the fear due you? So teach us to number our days that we may gain a heart of wisdom. Return, O Yahweh. How long? And have compassion on your servants. Satisfy us in the morning with your loyal love, that we may sing for joy and be glad all our days. Make us glad for as many days as you have afflicted us, for as many years as we have seen calamity. Let your work be visible to your servants, and your majesty to their children. And let the beauty of the Lord our God be upon us, and establish for us the work of our hands, yes, the work of our hands, establish it. Psalm 90 (LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Assertion "of the prophet's day" provides a classic eisegesis example. How long had the first woe in Jeremiah 23:1 been happening ? The Northern Kingdom of Israel had already been scattered. Assyria assertion contradicts Jeremiah 50:17-18
@Bill_Coley Exegesis, not eisegesis. The most sensible reading of the text is that God promises justice for offending shepherds of the prophet's day, and a return home to the exiles of the prophet's day.
Context is every word having meaning in a sentence, paragraph, larger unit. Faith assumption "a return home to the exiles of the prophet's day" simply disagrees with what the text says God commanded Jeremiah about weeping: You must not weep for the dead person, and you must not show sympathy for him. Weep bitterly for the one who goes away, for he will not return, or see the land of his birth again. Jeremiah 22:10 (LEB)
@Bill_Coley If you disagree, on what basis would the exiles and those more directly afflicted by the unjust shepherds of the prophet's day have taken hope if they believed God's promise concerned events to come 600 years in the future?
Jeremiah 32 includes a faithful promise from One God about future property being owned by Israelites in the land that God promised to Israel.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Lexham English Bible (LEB) translates Greek phrase "ὃν ὑμεῖς ἐσταυρώσατε" as "whom you crucified" while NLT uses words "the man" for relative pronoun ὃν in phrase "the man you crucified". Both LEB and NLT translate ὃν in the next phrase as whom: 'whom God raised from the dead' (with NLT inserting word 'but' that is not in the Society of Biblical Literature Greek New Testament).
@Bill_Coley I contend that the lack of the word "man" in the LEB's translation of Acts 4.10 is inconsequential
sincein Acts 4.22-24 - that is, as part of the SAME sermon - the LEB quotes Peter as saying: “Israelite men, listen to these words! Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—23 this man, delivered up by the determined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by* nailing to a cross* through the hand of lawless men. 24 God raised ⌊him⌋ up, having brought to an end the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Another conflict resolution eisegesis example is "man" always meaning "NOT God", consistent with belief assumption: '... Jesus cannot be God.'
@Bill_Coley The Greek word translated "man" in Acts 2.22 is "ἄνδρα." From what I can find about the word, it refers to humans - mostly, but not exclusively, to male humans. I am not aware of a text in which the word is used to refer to deities. Acts 2.22 is certainly not one of them.
Concur Greek word ἀνήρ (spelled as ἄνδρα for grammatical usage of noun as accusative and singular) describes physical human body being an adult male. Logos Bible Software search: God WITHIN {Headword ἀνήρ} found a number of lexicon entries. The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament was published in 1990 that has six definitions with the sixth definition being: "In accordance with Gen 18:2, 16, 22; 19:3, 8, 10, 12, 16 ἀνήρ can designate a supernatural being or angel (Gen 19:1, 15, 16 LXX; Heb 13:2), as in Luke 24:4: ἄνδρες δύο (cf. John 20:12 δύο ἀγγέλους); Acts 1:10; 10:30; Gos. Pet. 36, 39 (9, 10); Herm. Vis. i.4.3; iii.2.5, etc." And it happened that while they were perplexed about this, behold, two men in gleaming clothing stood near them. Luke 24:4 (LEB) correlates with John 20:12 (LEB) and she saw two angels in white, seated one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been lying. Ascension of Jesus has another example of two angelic messengers from God physically described as men: And as they were staring into the sky while he was departing, behold, two men in white clothing stood by them Acts 1:10 (LEB)
@Bill_Coley Your identifications of and assertions about my analysis of texts - e.g. "another conflict resolution eisegesis example" - add nothing to our discussion of the content of texts. Revisit your assertion here and you will note that in it you provided NO comment about YOUR take on the text. Where in the text do you find support for your view of the text? We don't know because you don't reveal your view of the text. Instead, you use your posts to indict my motives. Please tell us YOUR view of Acts 2.22-24. Where in the text do you find support for YOUR conclusions about it?
The Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) Greek New Testament has a paragraph of Acts 2.22-28 that includes David describing the Lord, Holy One of God who went into Hades (so Lord is Jesus, who died physically while having an eternal spirit that cannot die so was not abandoned to Hades). Greek word ἀνήρ describes adult male body, consistent with John 1:14 And The Word (eternally being God as stated in John 1:1) became flesh ...
Remember chapter and verse numbering were artificially added over 1,400 years after original writings, which have a number of misalignment issues with Greek discourse thoughts: e.g. Ephesians 1:3-14 is one long Greek sentence. Philippians 4:6 is in the middle of a Greek sentence. Hence, personally want to be cognizant of paragraphs/pericopes for contextual consistency (while knowing they are artificial boundaries too).
@Bill_Coley Please comment on the logic of my response: If I believe you claim to be God, does that necessarily mean I am CORRECT that you claim to be God? Or is it possible that I could be WRONG to believe you claim to be God?
First principle of Celebrate Recovery keeps coming to me: "Realize I'm not God. I admit I am powerless to control my tendency to do the wrong thing and that my life is unmanageable. (Step 1)" Blessed are the poor in spirit, because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3 (LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Truly what is humility ? How confidently does Jesus know who He is so He has no need to boast ? Yet wind and seas obey His voice as do demons. Human belief is the result of many thoughts. Faith assertion " Jesus' clear claim is that he is NOT God." is consistent with belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' that clearly does not want to recognize Jesus is Lord God (in a variety of expressions: e.g. Daniel 7:13-14 prophecy fulfillment = "Son of Man", many "I AM' self identifications as Lord God with characteristics that only One True God was/is/will be).
@Bill_Coley My claim is not that Jesus failed to "boast" about his being God. My claim instead is that he failed EVER to CLAIM to be God. You have yet to cite a verse in which Jesus claims to be God... because no such verse exists.
Belief assumption "God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." corollary is "You have yet to cite a verse in which Jesus claims to be God... because no such verse exists." so the conclusion that no verse appears accords with belief assumption "My claim instead is that he failed EVER to CLAIM to be God." (not in the text). Solid exegesis approach is being aware of our own assumptions when approaching Scripture text along with asking God to help us clearly see what the text says (instead of seeing our own assumptions as what the text "clearly" says, which is eisegesis).
Another example of belief assumption being more important than what the text says is the pre-existence of Jesus. How can Jesus not be God ?
Jesus experienced God's Glory and Love when the only Spiritual Being in existence was One True God. John 17:5 in LEB has footnote: 'Literally "by the side of yourself"' that humanly is challenging to describe "side" in the Spiritual realm as the physical world had not yet been created by God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Puzzled by question being asked again as Hebrews 9 passage does address ascension purpose of offering blood in the heavenly holy of holies. Actually passage could be expanded to include much more of Hebrews. Also puzzled by 24-25 reference since Hebrews 6 has 20 verses.
@Bill_Coley The Hebrews 6 citation was a typo. My mistake. The sentence containing that errant citation accurately began with a reference to Hebrews 9, but did not conclude with a reference to that chapter. The correct citation to verses that declare additional distinctions between Jesus and God, therefore, is Hebrews 9.14,24-25.
@Bill_Coley The question to which your reference to Hebrews 9 did not respond, and which I then repeated - and here repeat again - was this: If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he tell his disciples that he was ascending to the one who was his (and their) God?
Thankful for this thread discussion as learning for me has included Jesus worshiping The Father as God so the plural unified God's commUnity of Love includes worship between three voices that share One name: 'the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' Matthew 28:19
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus And when day came, the council of elders of the people gathered, both chief priests and scribes, and they led him away to their Sanhedrin, saying, “If you are the Christ, tell us!” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will never believe, and if I ask you, you will never answer! But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” So they all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.” And they said, “Why do we have need of further testimony? For we ourselves have heard it from his mouth!” Luke 22:66-71 (LEB) includes insight that direct deity declaration does not guarantee belief Jesus is Lord God (as is God the Father & Breath the Holy). Self identification of Jesus is Lord God. Jesus truthfully saying "I AM" (in phrase 'You say that I am.') was recognized by Sanhedrin religious 'lawyers and judges' as legal reason for Jesus to die.
@Bill_Coley At NO TIME in his engagement with the Sanhedrin does Jesus claim to be God. He claims to be the "Son of Man," and, indirectly, the "Messiah" or "Christ," but he does NOT claim to be God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Faith assertion "At NO TIME in his engagement with the Sanhedrin does Jesus claim to be God." is consistent with belief assumption: 'God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God.' while clearly unable to explain Jewish legal motivation for having Jesus put to death (for what Jesus said).
@Bill_Coley You answered your own question: The "Jewish legal motivation for having Jesus put to death" was "what Jesus said." The issue I raised had nothing to do with the legal justification for their desires. What I raised was the logical fact that just because they BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT MEAN they were CORRECT that Jesus claimed to be God. If they believed Jesus had claimed to be God, they were wrong.
If "At NO TIME in his engagement with the Sanhedrin does Jesus claim to be God" is valid, then the Sanhedrin had no Jewish legal religious reason (according to the Books of Moses) for having Jesus put to death because of what Jesus said, which is clearly contrary to what the text says.
The text of Jesus saying to the Sanhedrin: "If I tell you, you will never believe ..." simply disagrees with "they BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God ...".
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus And when day came, the council of elders of the people gathered, both chief priests and scribes, and they led him away to their Sanhedrin, saying, “If you are the Christ, tell us!” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will never believe, and if I ask you, you will never answer! But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.” So they all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.” And they said, “Why do we have need of further testimony? For we ourselves have heard it from his mouth!” Luke 22:66-71 (LEB) says last two words spoken by Jesus to the Sanhedrin were "I AM" that is really heart breaking because of willful refusal to believe Jesus is Lord God. Years of intensely studying Scripture and outward righteousness had secret sins inside: Matthew 23:25-26 hypocrites, Luke 11:37-41 fools (spoken by Lord God Jesus in Love)
@Bill_Coley And again, in the text, the words "I am" serve as a response to a question, not as a declaration of deity. The exchange follows the same format:
* "Are you X?"
* "You say that I am."
@Bill_Coley Time and again in our exchanges you have attached to the words "I am" a role that in the text they do not play (John 8.58 is an interesting variation on this theme, but it is alone in such a category).
Please explain in the text reaction by religious lawyers and judges in the Sanhedrin (Jewish Supreme Court) to Jesus truthfully saying "I AM" as part of a sentence, which answered the question: “Are you then the Son of God?”. In the text from the Books of Moses, please explain Jewish legal reason for wanting Jesus put to death (religious lawyers and judges wanted to avoid appearance of violating God's command against murder).
@Wolfgang Well stated. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus appears to have a severe phobia of using the words "I" and ""am" in what he writes. He avoids using them ... perhaps because he fears that someone might think @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus would be claiming to be God?
Learned a lesson about "I" trouble in Isaiah 14:12-17 (not letting prisoners go from "I" thoughts reminds me of belief assumption bondage)
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus , your posts are way too long winded and lack being to the point. The only thing you really needed to write in reply to my earlier post was the following part of your post
My belief assumption is One God being literally true. Hence my description of plural unified God reflects Deuteronomy 6:4 that understands One True God to be One Spiritual Being whose uniqueness has plural voices.
(1) You finally admit that YOU go by "belief assumptions" .... thank you. Until now you gave the impression that such applied only to others whose understanding you constantly termed as "faith assertions", etc.
(2) You have again made clear that your "One God "is actually "One Team of a number of "God" players", which you call "voices" because "persons" would be a bit too obvious and reveal that in truth you have a number of Gods (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) which you organize in one team.
You know, basketball is played by basketball players, having several functions such as guards, center, forwards. Yes, there is one team with a number of players. Are they together one unified PLAYER ??? NO. A guard is a guard, the center is a center, the forward is a forward. They are only one TEAM because they are unified in the same purposes, same mind, have the same "voice" BUT they are NOT one unified Player.
There is only ONE "player" Who is actually GOD .... He is called "Creator, Almighty, Holy One, Father, Holy Spirit", however, He is never called "Son, Servant"!!!
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@YourTruthGod wrote:
The SCRIPTURES DO SAY ANGELS ARE SPIRITS.
Hebrews 1:13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
(1) Who are these messengers / angels who minister to the heirs of salvation? are they "ghosts" (as people think of "living spirit beings") floating around the assemblies of believers? What about the messengers / angels of the churches mentioned in book of Revelation? Are messengers something other than human beings, just because translators decided to translate the word used as "angel" instead of simply "messenger"?
(2) what is meant with someone is a "ministering spirit"? Is that someone whose attitude and motivation and purpose and demeanor is service? In German, one can call a person - a human being, man or woman - who has such character "a ministering spirit".
The LAMPS are spirits.
Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Is this verse relating an actual situation, or is what is mentioned there part of a vision?? Not reading carefully and not taking into account the context will result in false interpretations and false understanding
@Wolfgang wrote:
The Scriptures do teach that they are the Word of God, They came in writing by God inspiring men of God. Now then, according to your manner of interpretation by which you claim that "scriptures do say Jesus is God", you would then say that the Bible (the Scriptures) is God ??
@YourTruthGod replied
You sound like you have no reasoning skills. I said the scriptures say the word was with God and WAS God and became flesh.
Is the Bible flesh?
The Bible is the written words of God.
Jesus' name is "The Word of God".
Sure ... I must be the one with no reasoning ability ... But then, I at least can read what is written without reasoning what is stated in the text into something the text does not mean and does not really say.
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@Wolfgang You know, basketball is played by basketball players, having several functions such as guards, center, forwards. Yes, there is one team with a number of players. Are they together one unified PLAYER ??? NO. A guard is a guard, the center is a center, the forward is a forward. They are only one TEAM because they are unified in the same purposes, same mind, have the same "voice" BUT they are NOT one unified Player.
Basketball is played by humans: each individual chooses what to believe & love most, which can include purposely playing together as a team.
@Wolfgang There is only ONE "player" Who is actually GOD .... He is called "Creator, Almighty, Holy One, Father, Holy Spirit", however, He is never called "Son, Servant"!!!
How can Jesus not be God ? (plural voices in One God share unifying invisible Spirituality, much more intimately intense than any human team)
Jesus experienced God's Glory and Love when the only Spiritual Being in existence was One True God. John 17:5 in LEB has footnote: 'Literally "by the side of yourself"' that humanly is challenging to describe "side" in the Spiritual realm as the physical world had not yet been created by God.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@YourTruthGod posted:
The Bible says Jesus' hands and the Father's hands are the same.
So when from the cross, Jesus commended his spirit into his Father's hands (Luke 23.46), he actually commended his spirit into his own hands?
And when John the Gospel writer tells us that Jesus was sent by God and that God gave him "the Spirit without limit" (John 3.34), and "put everything into his [Jesus'] hands" (John 3.35), John actually meant that God put everything into God's own hands?
In neither instance - nor in any other location, to my first reflection (Hebrews 1 is the closest I could come in my brief search, but that chapter must be read as a whole, not in snippets) does the text say Jesus' and the Father's hands are the same. Please cite the text(s) which in your view make that claim.
Don't you believe the scriptures?
I do.
God the Father came as a man and the man was going back to the Father.
The challenge to your view is that NO text says the "man" who came was God. In Acts 4.10, Peter calls Jesus a "man" the Jews crucified but "God raised from the dead." And in Romans 5.15, Paul says "through this other man, Jesus Christ" come "God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many." And 1 Timothy 2.5 says "the man Christ Jesus" is the "one mediator who can reconcile" humanity to the "one God." Each of those texts make a clear distinction between God and the man Jesus. I know of no text that says the man who came was God or "God the Father." Please cite the text(s) which in your view make such a claim.
Jesus is the Word of God, and it is his name.
I respect your view, but the prologue to John's Gospel doesn't say Jesus is the Word, nor does it say "word" is his name. The white horse's rider in Revelation 19.13 seems to give Jesus the title "the Word of God," but that's a title, not a name.
The scripture plainly says all things were made through him.
We agree. The Colossians text says "through him (Christ) God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth." (Colossians 1.16, NLT) In other words, God made everything through Christ. Christ didn't make everything, God did... through Christ. And if God made everything through Christ, then God and Christ cannot be the same. "Everything was created through him and for him," (Colossians 1.16) but NOT by him. God created all things THROUGH Christ.
It means God came as a son of man.
I'm not aware of a verse or passage that makes this claim. Yes, Jesus says the Son of Man came to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many (Mark 10.45), but I know of no text that says God came as the Son of Man. Please cite the verse(s) or passage(s) that you believe say so.
Scriptures that say Jesus is God the Father:
I know of no text that says Jesus is God the Father.
- On multiple occasions Jesus prays to his Father, and there is no sense in any of those prayers that he believes he's praying to himself.
- The resurrected Jesus instructs Mary to tell his followers that he's about to ascend to the one who is both his own and their Father (John 20.17).
Please cite the text(s) which in your view declare Jesus is God the Father.
Scripture says Jesus is the Rock.
In one verse, Scripture says Christ was the rock that traveled with the ancient Israelites, yes.
Scripture says the Rock is God.
I'm not aware of any text that links the multiple OT "Rock" images (capitalization intentional, as found in OT texts) that clearly refer to God to the single NT "rock" image that refers to Christ. There is no sense in 1 Cor 10.4 that Christ is the "rock" (non-capitalization intentional, as found in 1 Cor 10.4) in the same way that God was the "Rock" in the OT.
It is Jesus who gives to those who thirst. The Father and Jesus are the same.
No text says Jesus is the ONLY one who gives to those who thirst.
According to Rev 21.5, the one who speaks in Rev 21.7 is "the one sitting on the throne." In Revelation, the one who sits on the throne is God, not Jesus (Rev 1.4, 5.13, 6.16, 7.11, 12.5, 20.11-12).
There is no scripture about mother God. You need to keep it God's Word.
You asked "Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans?" a question that didn't seem to limit responses to aspects of God, whether as mother or father.
Jesus says he will not leave them as orphans and that he will come to live with them.
Yes, but that assurance is NOT a declaration of divinity; it's an assurance of future accompaniment.
Do you really want to subtract from God's Word?
No. And my choice to interpret Jesus' words to his followers in John 14.18 to mean that he won't abandon them in no way does so. In my view, that's the clear, unambiguous meaning of the text.
The Old Testament scriptures are about Jesus.
It is all a prophecy about Jesus.
Yours is a Christian and New Testament-informed interpretation of the OT texts. In my view, however, before we use OT words to help us understand Jesus, we must FIRST understand those words as their writers FIRST intended them.
The scripture plainly says he will be called 'father'.
To my knowledge, no text says Jesus will be called "father." Isaiah 9.6 does not specify the name of the child who "is born to us," but given the tense of the verb the prophet employs, that child was clearly already born or about to be born in the prophet's time, and hence, TO THE PROPHET, was clearly not Jesus. Please cite the verse(s) that in your view "plainly" say Jesus will be called "father."
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Partially answers question as orchids were known in Rome during the time of Jesus, but says nothing about human cultivation where Jesus lived. Also learned orchids have a few thousand varieties: some are cultivated "on the ground" while others are cultivated "in the air" (aerial roots).
In the text, Jesus doesn't limit his statement to seeds cultivated by humans.
Logos Bible software Reverse Interlinear Greek alignment in NLT shows "It is the smallest * * * of all seeds" * * * => ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς (not in NLT)
We agree.
Repeating follow-up question: "Did God The Father err in parable wording for Jesus to speak ?" (John 12:44-50 Jesus chose to obey The Father)
I'll address your question as soon as you address my question, the one I now ask a third time: If Jesus was God, wouldn't he have known about all seeds, or do you claim that as God he was not as omniscient as the God he addressed as "Father"?
Two become One in marriage. Looking forward for me being part of the bride becoming One in Lord God Jesus during Heavenly Holy matrimony:
Your response here in no material way responds to the core of my claim that according to the words Jesus uses in John 17.21, he believes his followers are capable of the same kind of oneness he claims with his Father, an observation which leads to the conclusion that for Jesus, being "one" with does NOT mean being the same as (to your point: Two people who marry become "one" in an important sense, but they remain two individual people and children of God; marriage does not and cannot make them the same as each other.)
Puzzled by human reasoning about God's prophetic timing that concludes "most likely someone of his day", which is not what the text says. One True Lord God's timing perspective: 1 day is as 1,000 years and 1,000 years is as 1 day.
Yes, Peter compares a day to a thousand years as he explains what his readers might interpret as the Lord's delay, but there is no such interpretive framework in Jeremiah 23. Jeremiah 23.1-4 CLEARLY refers to shepherds of the prophet's day:
- "...they have destroyed and scattered the very ones they were expected to care for" (Jer 23.1)
- they "have deserted [the shepherds' human flocks] and driven them to destruction (Jer 23.2)
Those are both references to events in the prophet's time.
Context is every word having meaning in a sentence, paragraph, larger unit. Faith assumption "a return home to the exiles of the prophet's day" simply disagrees with what the text says God commanded Jeremiah about weeping: You must not weep for the dead person, and you must not show sympathy for him. Weep bitterly for the one who goes away, for he will not return, or see the land of his birth again. Jeremiah 22:10 (LEB)
And in Jer 23.11, the LEB identifies "the one who goes away" as Shallum - another name for Jehoahaz - "the son of Josiah, the king of Judah" in the prophet's day.
Jeremiah 32 includes a faithful promise from One God about future property being owned by Israelites in the land that God promised to Israel.
There is nothing in Jer 32 to suggest the exiles will have to wait 600 years for the fulfillment of the prophet's predictions. In fact, in more than one location, Jeremiah says their confinement away from their homeland will last 70 years, not 600 (Jer 25.11; 29.10)
Logos Bible Software search: God WITHIN {Headword ἀνήρ} found a number of lexicon entries. The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament was published in 1990 that has six definitions with the sixth definition being: "In accordance
I welcome the assistance of your Logos search, but what matters is what Peter and Paul meant when they used the word "man" to describe Jesus. In my view, there is no sense in their writings that they meant "man" to mean anything other than a male human being.
The Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) Greek New Testament has a paragraph of Acts 2.22-28 that includes David describing the Lord, Holy One of God who went into Hades (so Lord is Jesus, who died physically while having an eternal spirit that cannot die so was not abandoned to Hades). Greek word ἀνήρ describes adult male body, consistent with John 1:14 And The Word (eternally being God as stated in John 1:1) became flesh ...
I agree that Jesus' spirit didn't die, just as your and my spirits won't die. More relevant to our discussion is the fact that Peter says Jesus was a "man" God "endorsed" by doing great things "through him" (Acts 2.22), whom the Jews killed on a cross (Acts 2.23), and whom God "raised...back to life" (Acts 2.24). Where in THAT TEXT do you find support for your view that Jesus was God?
Remember chapter and verse numbering were artificially added over 1,400 years after original writings, which have a number of misalignment issues with Greek discourse thoughts: e.g. Ephesians 1:3-14 is one long Greek sentence. Philippians 4:6 is in the middle of a Greek sentence. Hence, personally want to be cognizant of paragraphs/pericopes for contextual consistency (while knowing they are artificial boundaries too).
I don't understand the relevance of these comments to my question about the meaning of Peter's words in Acts 2.22-24.
First principle of Celebrate Recovery keeps coming to me: "Realize I'm not God. I admit I am powerless to control my tendency to do the wrong thing and that my life is unmanageable. (Step 1)" Blessed are the poor in spirit, because theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3 (LEB)
I don't see how this response in any material way engages the question I asked, so I ask it again: Please comment on the logic of my analysis of religious leaders' indictments against Jesus: If I believe you claim to be God, does that necessarily mean I am CORRECT that you claim to be God? Or is it possible that I could be WRONG to believe you claim to be God?
Belief assumption "God cannot die. Jesus died. Jesus cannot be God." corollary is "You have yet to cite a verse in which Jesus claims to be God... because no such verse exists." so the conclusion that no verse appears accords with belief assumption "My claim instead is that he failed EVER to CLAIM to be God." (not in the text). Solid exegesis approach is being aware of our own assumptions when approaching Scripture text along with asking God to help us clearly see what the text says (instead of seeing our own assumptions as what the text "clearly" says, which is eisegesis).
Another example of belief assumption being more important than what the text says is the pre-existence of Jesus. How can Jesus not be God ?
Jesus experienced God's Glory and Love when the only Spiritual Being in existence was One True God. John 17:5 in LEB has footnote: 'Literally "by the side of yourself"' that humanly is challenging to describe "side" in the Spiritual realm as the physical world had not yet been created by God.
John 17.5 is NOT example of a verse in which Jesus declared himself to be God. I again assert such verses do not exist. Were they to exist, you wouldn't have to rely on an LEB translation footnote to make your case for their existence.
I claim that Jesus never claimed to be God. Until you cite one or more verses in which he did so, your "belief assumption" memes will continue to be irrelevant distractions from the crux of our discussion. The fact that after all the interactions you and I have had over the last many months you have YET to cite verses that disprove my "belief assumption"-marred claim provides strong evidence of its accuracy.
Thankful for this thread discussion as learning for me has included Jesus worshiping The Father as God so the plural unified God's commUnity of Love includes worship between three voices that share One name: 'the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' Matthew 28:19
Jesus told Mary to tell the disciples that he was ascending to the one who was both his own and their God and Father (John 20.17); he said nothing to her about his worshiping the one who was his own and their God and Father. Hence, your response here fails to engage my question: If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he tell his disciples that he was ascending to the one who was his and their God? How could one who was God ascend to his (and their) God, to his (and their) Father? Please engage this question directly.
If "At NO TIME in his engagement with the Sanhedrin does Jesus claim to be God" is valid, then the Sanhedrin had no Jewish legal religious reason (according to the Books of Moses) for having Jesus put to death because of what Jesus said, which is clearly contrary to what the text says.
The text of Jesus saying to the Sanhedrin: "If I tell you, you will never believe ..." simply disagrees with "they BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God ...".
The question to which Jesus answered "If I tell you..." asked whether Jesus was "the Messiah," NOT whether he was God (Luke 22.67).
AND YET AGAIN, I remind you that just because religious leaders BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God - and therefore may have had a "Jewish legal religious reason" for killing him - DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus actually DID claim to be God. At some point, PLEASE, directly address the logic of my claim: If I believe you CLAIM to be God, does that necessarily mean you in fact DO claim to be God, or is it possible that I could be MISTAKEN in my belief that you claim to be God? PLEASE address that question directly; I've raised it to you several times in the course of our exchanges and you've failed ever to engage it.
Please explain in the text reaction by religious lawyers and judges in the Sanhedrin (Jewish Supreme Court) to Jesus truthfully saying "I AM" as part of a sentence, which answered the question: “Are you then the Son of God?”. In the text from the Books of Moses, please explain Jewish legal reason for wanting Jesus put to death (religious lawyers and judges wanted to avoid appearance of violating God's command against murder).
In Luke 22, religious leaders ask Jesus whether he is "the Messiah" (Luke 22.67). Jesus tells them they won't believe or answer him, and that the Son of Man will be seated at God's right hand (Luke 22.67-69). The leaders then shout, "So are you claiming to be the Son of God?" Jesus says "You say that I am." (Luke 22.70; THAT IS: "You say that I am...the Son of God.") Then the leaders respond that they heard him say it (Luke 22.71). What they heard him say was about his being the Messiah and the Son of God, NOT about his being God.
AND YET AGAIN.... that religious leaders BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God - and therefore may have had a "Jewish legal religious reason" for killing him - DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus actually DID claim to be God. The fact that I claim 1+1=17 DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN 1+1=17. I might be MISTAKEN when I claim 1+1=17.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:
How can Jesus not be God ?
you are asking the wrong question .... Rather, one should ask how can a man - Jesus of Nazareth - be God?? The answer is very simple, He can't be God! The true God is only ONE, not two, not three. not four or more.
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(1) Who are these messengers / angels who minister to the heirs of salvation? are they "ghosts" (as people think of "living spirit beings") floating around the assemblies of believers? What about the messengers / angels of the churches mentioned in book of Revelation? Are messengers something other than human beings, just because translators decided to translate the word used as "angel" instead of simply "messenger"?
(2) what is meant with someone is a "ministering spirit"? Is that someone whose attitude and motivation and purpose and demeanor is service? In German, one can call a person - a human being, man or woman - who has such character "a ministering spirit".
The LAMPS are spirits.
Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
A spirit is invisible but sometimes they can be seen. An angel is a spirit and can sometimes be seen or take the form of a human body.
The churches in the New Testament times have been gone a long time now, but they had angels over them, and, probably something like the angels children have who see God's face daily. These angels see God's face daily.
Matthew 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
In the Old Testament times, God spoke to the people by angels and prophets, but in the New Testament times God spoke to us through his Son.
Hebrews 1:1 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Deuteronomy 33:2 He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned upon us from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran and came with myriads of holy ones, with flaming fire at His right hand.
Acts 7:38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. And he received living words to pass on to us.
Galatians 3:19 Why then was the Law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator.
Hebrews 2:2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every transgression and disobedience received its just punishment,
Is this verse relating an actual situation, or is what is mentioned there part of a vision?? Not reading carefully and not taking into account the context will result in false interpretations and false understanding
It is a vision of Jesus being a lamb that was slain and has seven lamps with fire for his eyes. The scripture says they are the seven spirits of the Lord. Angels are spirits. The Lord has angels. Why is that so hard for you to accept? Does God have wings, or are His wings the wings of His angels? Think about it. So if God's wings are the wings of His angels, then why not the seven lamps/eyes be angels?
@Wolfgang wrote:
The Scriptures do teach that they are the Word of God, They came in writing by God inspiring men of God. Now then, according to your manner of interpretation by which you claim that "scriptures do say Jesus is God", you would then say that the Bible (the Scriptures) is God ??
Sure ... I must be the one with no reasoning ability ... But then, I at least can read what is written without reasoning what is stated in the text into something the text does not mean and does not really say.
You asked if the Bible was flesh. Jesus is God come in the flesh. The Bible isn't God come in the flesh.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I gave you scriptures that say Jesus' name is the Word of God, and he was with God, and was God, and became flesh. You still won't admit Jesus and the Father are the same.
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So when from the cross, Jesus commended his spirit into his Father's hands (Luke 23.46), he actually commended his spirit into his own hands?
There is the Father and the Son and the scriptures say they are one; 'one' means 'the same'.
Do you know that the scriptures say that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God?
Do you know that the scriptures say Jesus is the Spirit?
God the Father is called the Savior, Redeemer, the Holy One of Is Israel. and those are the same things Jesus is called.
The Bible says there is only one SAVIOR. The Bible says God is the Savior and Jesus is the Savior. If they aren't the same then there are two Saviors.
In neither instance - nor in any other location, to my first reflection (Hebrews 1 is the closest I could come in my brief search, but that chapter must be read as a whole, not in snippets) does the text say Jesus' and the Father's hands are the same. Please cite the text(s) which in your view make that claim.
Jesus says you can't put any scripture aside.
The challenge to your view is that NO text says the "man" who came was God.
The Bible says God came in the flesh. What do you think that means if not a man? That is Jesus.
Since God spoke to us through Prophets, it doesn't mean the Prophets were God. Since God dealt with us through angels, it doesn't mean those angels were God. However, the Bible says the Word was with God and was God and came in the flesh.
In Acts 4.10, Peter calls Jesus a "man" the Jews crucified but "God raised from the dead." And in Romans 5.15, Paul says "through this other man, Jesus Christ" come "God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many." And 1 Timothy 2.5 says "the man Christ Jesus" is the "one mediator who can reconcile" humanity to the "one God." Each of those texts make a clear distinction between God and the man Jesus. I know of no text that says the man who came was God or "God the Father." Please cite the text(s) which in your view make such a claim.
God the Father lives in unapproachable light and is a Spirit. Jesus is the Spirit of God come as a man in the flesh.
Do you know some scriptures say God the Father raised Jesus, and some scriptures say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, and some scriptures say Jesus raised himself?
That is because they are three and one and the same.
I respect your view, but the prologue to John's Gospel doesn't say Jesus is the Word, nor does it say "word" is his name. The white horse's rider in Revelation 19.13 seems to give Jesus the title "the Word of God," but that's a title, not a name.
It is given to Jesus.
We agree. The Colossians text says "through him (Christ) God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth." (Colossians 1.16, NLT) In other words, God made everything through Christ. Christ didn't make everything, God did... through Christ. And if God made everything through Christ, then God and Christ cannot be the same. "Everything was created through him and for him," (Colossians 1.16) but NOT by him. God created all things THROUGH Christ.
Everything was made through God, the Father.
Everything was made through Jesus.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I'm not aware of a verse or passage that makes this claim. Yes, Jesus says the Son of Man came to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many (Mark 10.45), but I know of no text that says God came as the Son of Man. Please cite the verse(s) or passage(s) that you believe say so.
I give them to you but you refuse them.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 14:9 Jesus replied, "Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Did you read that?
Jesus says when you have seen him you have seen the FATHER.
So Jesus' hands are the Father's hands.
One day when you see Jesus, you will be able to say 'I see the Father'.
I know of no text that says Jesus is God the Father.
- Do you know that Jesus reveals things to those who love him by obeying him?
- You are given scriptures that plainly show us that Jesus is God the Father, but you still say you don't see it.
- So what does Jesus have to reveal things to people if it just comes by reading?
On multiple occasions Jesus prays to his Father, and there is no sense in any of those prayers that he believes he's praying to himself.
The resurrected Jesus instructs Mary to tell his followers that he's about to ascend to the one who is both his own and their Father .
God the Father really came as a man He didn't just pretend to do that.
In one verse, Scripture says Christ was the rock that traveled with the ancient Israelites, yes.
I'm not aware of any text that links the multiple OT "Rock" images (capitalization intentional, as found in OT texts) that clearly refer to God to the single NT "rock" image that refers to Christ. There is no sense in 1 Cor 10.4 that Christ is the "rock" (non-capitalization intentional, as found in 1 Cor 10.4) in the same way that God was the "Rock" in the OT.
Scripture says GOD THE FATHER is the ROCK and that same Rock is called Christ.
See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
No text says Jesus is the ONLY one who gives to those who thirst.
Where did I say Jesus is the only one who gives to those who thirst?
I gave you scripture about Jesus giving to those who thirst to prove that the Father and Jesus are the same.
You asked "Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans?" a question that didn't seem to limit responses to aspects of God, whether as mother or father.
Keep it scriptural.
Yes, but that assurance is NOT a declaration of divinity; it's an assurance of future accompaniment.
Jesus says he will come back to live with them and that is proof he is the same as the Father.
We are only given ONE SPIRIT and the FATHER and JESUS live in us when we are saved proving they are ONE AND THE SAME.
It is all a prophecy about Jesus.Yours is a Christian and New Testament-informed interpretation of the OT texts. In my view, however, before we use OT words to help us understand Jesus, we must FIRST understand those words as their writers FIRST intended them.
That doesn't make sense.
To my knowledge, no text says Jesus will be called "father." Isaiah 9.6 does not specify the name of the child who "is born to us," but given the tense of the verb the prophet employs, that child was clearly already born or about to be born in the prophet's time, and hence, TO THE PROPHET, was clearly not Jesus. Please cite the verse(s) that in your view "plainly" say Jesus will be called "father."
The whole Bible is about Jesus, even the names of the prophets.
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@YourTruthGod posted:
There is the Father and the Son and the scriptures say they are one; 'one' means 'the same'.
As I have shown in multiple posts from Jesus' own words, when he says he and his Father are "one" he does NOT mean he and his Father are "the same." He means they are in what he calls "perfect unity," a kind of "perfect unity" of which he believes his disciples are capable.
So I have shown in the text what I think Jesus means by his being "one" with his Father. Please now show me in the text what you believe Jesus means by that term.
Do you know that the scriptures say that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God?
Yes.
Do you know that the scriptures say Jesus is the Spirit?
No, I don't know that. Please cite the verse(s) which you believe support this claim.
God the Father is called the Savior, Redeemer, the Holy One of Is Israel. and those are the same things Jesus is called.
I know that Jesus is called "Savior," but I know of no verse(s) that call him "redeemer" or "Holy One of Israel." GOD is called by those titles, yes; but I am not aware of any verse(s) in which JESUS is called them. Please cite the verse(s) in which Jesus is called "redeemer" or "Holy One of Israel."
And do you know the scriptures DO NOT say Jesus is God? (If they did, you would have cited the verses by now.)
The Bible says there is only one SAVIOR. The Bible says God is the Savior and Jesus is the Savior. If they aren't the same then there are two Saviors.
The "savior" issue is confusing, or at least multi-layered. The best I've been able to decipher it is to say God is the origin of our salvation - the ultimate "savior," if you will. God saves us through Jesus' sacrifice (John 10.6-10; Romans 5.8-10; 2 Timothy 1.9-10; Titus 3.4-6). Because Jesus' role in the plan of salvation is so immense and central, he too is called the "savior." God initiates our salvation and then implements it in human form through Jesus.
Jesus says you can't put any scripture aside.
I don't put scripture aside. I simply asked that Bible texts be read in their full context.
The Bible says God came in the flesh. What do you think that means if not a man? That is Jesus.
John's prologue says the "Word" took on flesh and lived among us (John 1.14). In the very same chapter, John says "God's unfailing love and faithfulness came through Jesus Christ," (John 1.17) that "no one" has ever seen God, but Jesus - whom John calls "the unique one... near to the Father's Heart" - has "revealed God to us" (John 1.18)
If "no one has ever seen God," then it can't be the case that people saw God when they saw Jesus. Instead, they saw a revelation of God, an embodiment of God's "Word" ("logos").
God the Father lives in unapproachable light and is a Spirit. Jesus is the Spirit of God come as a man in the flesh.
I agree as to God as a Spirit in unapproachable light. I am not aware of a verse that says Jesus is "the Spirit of God come as a man in the flesh." Please cite it or them.
Do you know some scriptures say God the Father raised Jesus, and some scriptures say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, and some scriptures say Jesus raised himself?
I don't discern a consequential difference between "God" and "the Spirit of God," so such verses say the same thing, in my view.
I am aware of a single passage that some rely on to declare Jesus raised himself (John 10.17-18), a passage which could launch a lengthy exegetical discussion of its own - one for which I don't have time right now. Suffice it to say, I claim NO OTHER NT reference to who raised Jesus - NOT ONE - even remotely suggests Jesus raised himself. In unison the rest of those passages state clearly that God raised Jesus, often with those or very similar words (Acts 2.32; 3.26; 4.10; 5.30; Romans 4.24, 10.9; 2 Cor 4.14; Gal 1.1; 1 Thess 1.10; 1 Peter 1.3). And again, there is NO verse that says Jesus IS God.
That is because they are three and one and the same.
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim, but I also accept it as a claim that is not supported by Scripture.
It is given to Jesus.
"The Word" is NOT a name given to Jesus.
King James Bible But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I give you credit for finding one Bible translation that fits your theology. EVERY OTHER translation of 1 Cor 8.6 I consulted says God is the one BY/FROM whom all things were created, and Jesus is the one THROUGH whom they were created.
I give them to you but you refuse them.... Did you read that?
Yes. I did read that.
You rely on John's prologue for support for your claim that God came "as the Son of Man." I've already discussed the prologue, so I won't repeat myself.
When Jesus says "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14.9) he's not claiming to be the Father.
- In the same chapter Jesus say is the way to the Father, that no one can come to the Father except through him (John 14.6).
- On multiple occasions, Jesus says the Father sent him (John 5.36-37; 6.44,57; 8.16,18,42;10.36; 12.49; 13.20; 14.24; 17.21,25; 20.21). Pay particular attention to John 12.49 in which Jesus says he is not here on his own authority, but rather on the authority of the who sent him, the Father who commands him what to say and how to say it. The one who was God needed to authorization and direction to speak?
One day when you see Jesus, you will be able to say 'I see the Father'.
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim. I believe one day I will see Jesus and then I will be able to say I see Jesus.
Do you know that Jesus reveals things to those who love him by obeying him?
I do know that.
You are given scriptures that plainly show us that Jesus is God the Father, but you still say you don't see it.
No. I am given scriptures that YOU believe "plainly show us that Jesus is God the Father." I disagree with your interpretation of those texts, and claim that the VAST majority of NT texts clearly support my view, not yours.
So what does Jesus have to reveal things to people if it just comes by reading?
???
God the Father really came as a man He didn't just pretend to do that.
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim, but contend that it has no Scriptural basis, and in fact is directly contradicted by the Bible on multiple occasions.
Scripture says GOD THE FATHER is the ROCK and that same Rock is called Christ.
Scripture, including the verses you cited, does NOT say Jesus is the same "rock" as God the Father.
Where did I say Jesus is the only one who gives to those who thirst? I gave you scripture about Jesus giving to those who thirst to prove that the Father and Jesus are the same.
My point was that Jesus can give to those who thirst and yet NOT be God.
Jesus says he will come back to live with them and that is proof he is the same as the Father.
We are only given ONE SPIRIT and the FATHER and JESUS live in us when we are saved proving they are ONE AND THE SAME.
That there is one spirit, Father, and Jesus in no way proves those three are "one and the same." In my family or origin have one sister, one mom, and one dad, all related to me. But the fact that there is only one of each of them does not prove that my sister, mom, and dad were the same person.
That doesn't make sense.
This critique of my argument about interpreting prophetical books doesn't give me much to respond to. I guess all I can say is "it makes sense to me."
The whole Bible is about Jesus, even the names of the prophets.
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim.
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In my last post, I asked you several questions, basically none of which you even mentioned in your reply. So, I pose those questions again, at least one for the fourth time:
- If Jesus was God, wouldn't he have known about all seeds, or do you claim that as God he was not as omniscient as the God he addressed as "Father"?
- Please respond to the core of my claim that according to the words Jesus uses in John 17.21, he believes his followers are capable of the same kind of oneness he claims with his Father, an observation which leads to the conclusion that for Jesus, being "one" with does NOT mean being the same as.
- Where in Acts 2.23-24 do you find support for your view that Jesus was God?
- If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he tell his disciples that he was ascending to the one who was his and their God? How could one who was God ascend to his (and their) God, to his (and their) Father?
- Please respond to my critique of your argument that religious leaders had a "Jewish legal religious reason" to kill Jesus: That religious leaders BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God - and therefore may have had a "Jewish legal religious reason" for killing him - DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN Jesus actually DID claim to be God. The fact that I claim 1+1=17 DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN 1+1=17. I might be MISTAKEN when I claim 1+1=17. Isn't it true that just because those leaders BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN they were CORRECT?
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@YourTruthGod wrote:
You asked if the Bible was flesh. Jesus is God come in the flesh. The Bible isn't God come in the flesh.
I did not ask such a thing at all. YOU misinterpreted what I wrote because of not properly reading and nit understanding the comparison / illustration I made in reply to your earlier claims from John 1:1 about "the Word" being God.
Both (1) a claim "Word (Jesus) = "God (in the flesh)" and (2) a claim "Word (Bible)" = "God (in writing)" are inaccurate and false! I had hoped you would realize that ... but that is not what happened, and you mixed up and made a mess of fa simple comparison/illustration
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CORRECTION!
As the close of my previous post in this thread, I mistakenly presented to you, @YourTruthGod, questions I intended to present to our fellow poster, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus. I apologize for my error. 😔 You may address those questions if you wish, of course, but please know I did not intend them for you. My mistake.
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Okay, thanks for letting me know. I think I might try to answer some of those question. I think I might get into both of your conversations.
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As I have shown in multiple posts from Jesus' own words, when he says he and his Father are "one" he does NOT mean he and his Father are "the same." He means they are in what he calls "perfect unity," a kind of "perfect unity" of which he believes his disciples are capable.
So I have shown in the text what I think Jesus means by his being "one" with his Father. Please now show me in the text what you believe Jesus means by that term.
Jesus IS the Spirit, and the Spirit is God's Spirit.
Yes.
Since Jesus is the Spirit, it proves Jesus is God.
No, I don't know that. Please cite the verse(s) which you believe support this claim.
The Spirit intercedes for us. See Romans 8:26, 27.
Jesus intercedes for us. See Hebrews 7:25, Romans 8:34.
The scriptures say plainly that the Lord is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
I know that Jesus is called "Savior," but I know of no verse(s) that call him "redeemer" or "Holy One of Israel." GOD is called by those titles, yes; but I am not aware of any verse(s) in which JESUS is called them. Please cite the verse(s) in which Jesus is called "redeemer" or "Holy One of Israel."
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Isaiah 54:5 For your Maker is your husband-- the LORD Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.
And do you know the scriptures DO NOT say Jesus is God? (If they did, you would have cited the verses by now.)
I have been showing you, but if God doesn't want you to see them, then you won't be able to see them.
The "savior" issue is confusing, or at least multi-layered. The best I've been able to decipher it is to say God is the origin of our salvation - the ultimate "savior," if you will. God saves us through Jesus' sacrifice (John 10.6-10; Romans 5.8-10; 2 Timothy 1.9-10; Titus 3.4-6). Because Jesus' role in the plan of salvation is so immense and central, he too is called the "savior." God initiates our salvation and then implements it in human form through Jesus.
God says there is no other Savior than Him. God calls Jesus Savior.
You will just have to believe what is written.
I don't put scripture aside. I simply asked that Bible texts be read in their full context.
You saying to put it in context is a cop out.
When Jesus gave one scripture he didn't give a whole paragraph.
John's prologue says the "Word" took on flesh and lived among us (John 1.14). In the very same chapter, John says "God's unfailing love and faithfulness came through Jesus Christ," (John 1.17) that "no one" has ever seen God, but Jesus - whom John calls "the unique one... near to the Father's Heart" - has "revealed God to us" (John 1.18)
That is God's Spirit come as a man's spirit in the flesh.
If "no one has ever seen God," then it can't be the case that people saw God when they saw Jesus. Instead, they saw a revelation of God, an embodiment of God's "Word" ("logos").
Even before Jesus came to earth, he was the body of God in the Old Testament times.
I agree as to God as a Spirit in unapproachable light. I am not aware of a verse that says Jesus is "the Spirit of God come as a man in the flesh." Please cite it or them.
Jesus is the Spirit of God come as a man. I have been showing you with the scriptures. However, God will not reveal it to you unless He chooses to do so. If you want to know the truth there is a way. I want to teach the Way.
I don't discern a consequential difference between "God" and "the Spirit of God," so such verses say the same thing, in my view.
You need to reconsider more carefully. The Bible says Jesus raised himself.
Jesus raised himself because he is God.
I am aware of a single passage that some rely on to declare Jesus raised himself (John 10.17-18), a passage which could launch a lengthy exegetical discussion of its own - one for which I don't have time right now. Suffice it to say, I claim NO OTHER NT reference to who raised Jesus - NOT ONE - even remotely suggests Jesus raised himself. In unison the rest of those passages state clearly that God raised Jesus, often with those or very similar words (Acts 2.32; 3.26; 4.10; 5.30; Romans 4.24, 10.9; 2 Cor 4.14; Gal 1.1; 1 Thess 1.10; 1 Peter 1.3). And again, there is NO verse that says Jesus IS God.[/QUOTE]
Jesus raised himself.
"The Word" is NOT a name given to Jesus.
Jesus' NAME is the Word of God.
Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
I give you credit for finding one Bible translation that fits your theology. EVERY OTHER translation of 1 Cor 8.6 I consulted says God is the one BY/FROM whom all things were created, and Jesus is the one THROUGH whom they were created.
I gave it to you from the King James Version. How will you be faulted if you go by it?
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim. I believe one day I will see Jesus and then I will be able to say I see Jesus.
So you don't believe what Jesus says that when you see him you will see the Father?
???
Jesus reveals things things to certain people, and it isn't to people just because they read the Bible.
Scripture, including the verses you cited, does NOT say Jesus is the same "rock" as God the Father.
Yes it does.
My point was that Jesus can give to those who thirst and yet NOT be God.
Where do the scriptures say God the Father gives to those who thirst after Jesus came?
That there is one spirit, Father, and Jesus in no way proves those three are "one and the same." In my family or origin have one sister, one mom, and one dad, all related to me. But the fact that there is only one of each of them does not prove that my sister, mom, and dad were the same person.
God's ways are not your ways.
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim.
I prove what I say with the Bible.
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You did ask.
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@YourTruthGod posted:
Jesus IS the Spirit, and the Spirit is God's Spirit. ...Since Jesus is the Spirit, it proves Jesus is God.
The Spirit intercedes for us. See Romans 8:26, 27.
Jesus intercedes for us. See Hebrews 7:25, Romans 8:34.
As to the texts:
- Romans 8.26-27 says nothing about Jesus. Romans 8.11 says the Spirit of God, who lives in us, "raised Jesus from the dead." The one/power who raised Jesus cannot also BE Jesus.
- Romans 8.34 says Christ sits at God's right hand. It does NOT say Christ is "God's spirit."
As for the logic (the Spirit intercedes; Jesus intercedes; therefore, Jesus must be the Spirit):
- The problem here is the same as with the thirst question. The Holy Spirit need not be the ONLY one who intercedes for us. Jesus AND the Holy Spirit can intercede, and STILL be different.
- The specific logic issue with your argument is shown in this example, which bears the same logical structure: Dave plays the trombone. Mary plays the trombone. Therefore, Mary must be Dave... Obviously not. Mary and Dave can BOTH play the trombone without being the same person.
The scriptures say plainly that the Lord is the Spirit.
2 Cor 3.17-18 indeed says Jesus is the Spirit, but I disagree with your conclusion about the meaning attached to the word "Spirit." I think Paul must be talking about "the Spirit of the Lord" (v.17) as in the Spirit of Jesus - distinct from the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God.
- In Romans 1.4 Paul says it was "the power of the Holy Spirit" that raised Jesus, and in Romans 8.11 he says "the Spirit of God" raised Jesus, later in the same verse appearing to make God and "the Spirit of God" synonymous, the presence in us of the latter Spirit giving "life to our mortal bodies." Again I assert that the one who raised Jesus cannot also BE Jesus.
- In 1 Cor 6.11 Paul tells the Corinthians they were made right with God by "calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Another clear distinction/separation between Jesus and God's Spirit.
- Galatians 3.13-14 says THROUGH Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. The one THROUGH whom we receive the Spirit cannot also BE the Spirit (c.f. Luke 24.49 in which Jesus promises to send the Holy Spirit, but does NOT say the Spirit he will send is himself, or John 15.26 in which Jesus makes a similar promise to send "the Advocate," one who, Jesus says, will "testify about me." One who will testify about Jesus cannot also BE Jesus.)
- In Philippians 1.19 Paul says "the Spirit of Jesus Christ" helps him (c.f. Philippians 4.13), a spirit Paul makes no effort to equate to God's- or the Holy Spirit.
- Titus 3.6 - in my view, not written by Paul, but still very much on point - the writer says God "washed away our sins, giving us new life through the Holy Spirit," which God poured out on us "through Jesus Christ our Savior." That which God poured out THROUGH Jesus can't also BE Jesus.
- In Acts 10.38 Peter tells Cornelius and company that God "anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power," power by which Jesus did good and performed healings because "God was with him," presumably through the Holy Spirit" by which God had anointed him.
The upshot of this analysis, in my view, is that for Paul and other NT writers, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God are synonymous and different from "the Spirit of the Lord" referenced in 2 Cor 3.17-18. (Full disclosure: In Romans 8.9 Paul appears to equate the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God, thereby raising a conflict. As I have said before, we must all resolve such conflicts to the best of our abilities. I do so by acknowledging the conflict and drawing my conclusion from the WHOLE of Scripture, not just one or two passages.)
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Isaiah 54:5 For your Maker is your husband-- the LORD Almighty is his name-- the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth.
In your previous post, your wrote, "God the Father is called the Savior, Redeemer, the Holy One of Is Israel. and those are the same things Jesus is called." In response, I asked you to cite the verse(s) in which Jesus is called "Redeemer" or "the Holy One of Israel." Neither the Galatians nor the Isaiah text calls Jesus "Redeemer" or "the Holy One of Israel." I grant that one who redeems us is of course a redeemer, but your claim was that he was "called" "redeemer," which I don't think he is. He is described as one who redeems, but not called one. And the Isaiah text is not about Jesus; it's about God ("the Lord of Heaven's Armies" to be precise).
I have been showing you, but if God doesn't want you to see them, then you won't be able to see them.
The closest you've come is an LEB translation footnote, and the reason that's the closest you've come is that there are no verses that say Jesus is God. You CLAIM there are, and you interpret verses to mean there are, but none actually says Jesus is God.
God says there is no other Savior than Him. God calls Jesus Savior.
You will just have to believe what is written.
I do. ALL of what's written.
You saying to put it in context is a cop out.
When Jesus gave one scripture he didn't give a whole paragraph.
It's hard to contend with "cop out" allegations. To me they come across as insubstantial and unhelpful.
It's going to be really hard-cum-impossible for us to engage on the meaning of Bible passages if you don't accept context as necessary to the interpretive process.
That is God's Spirit come as a man's spirit in the flesh.
John's prologue does NOT say God's spirit took on flesh; it says God's Word ("logos") took on flesh. As I noted above, Jesus was "anointed" by the Holy Spirit, says Peter in Acts 10.38.
Even before Jesus came to earth, he was the body of God in the Old Testament times.
I accept and respect this as your personal faith claim, but one that has no biblical foundation. The pre-existence sayings, which are unique to John, do not claim Jesus "was the body of God."
Jesus is the Spirit of God come as a man. I have been showing you with the scriptures. However, God will not reveal it to you unless He chooses to do so. If you want to know the truth there is a way. I want to teach the Way.
Thanks for offering to teach me the truth (another less than constructive addition to our exchange). I want you to cite the verse(s) that say Jesus "is the Spirit of God come as a man." You have yet to do so, in my view.
I don't discern a consequential difference between "God" and "the Spirit of God," so such verses say the same thing, in my view.
You need to reconsider more carefully. The Bible says Jesus raised himself.
Jesus raised himself because he is God.
In my view, the Bible does NOT say Jesus raised himself, nor does it say Jesus is God. I accept and respect your claims to the contrary as your personal faith statements.
Jesus' NAME is the Word of God.
Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
After further review, I don't think there's much distinction to be made between a name and a title.
I gave it to you from the King James Version. How will you be faulted if you go by it?
It's not a matter of "fault;" it's a matter of accuracy. That all other translations render the word as "through" rather than "by" or "from" suggests the KJV is not the accurate translation of that verse.
So you don't believe what Jesus says that when you see him you will see the Father?
I believe EXACTLY what Jesus says about himself and the Father, which is NOT that he and the Father are the same (that they are "one" does NOT mean they are the same, as I have shown from Jesus' John 17 prayer in which he uses the "one" imagery).
Where do the scriptures say God the Father gives to those who thirst after Jesus came?
Another logic problem: Water quenches thirst. Gatorade quenches thirst. Therefore, water and Gatorade are the same. Obviously not. In the OT, the many "thirst" references refer to God. The single relevant NT "thirst" reference is to Jesus. They need not be, and in those verses are not claimed to be, the same.
I prove what I say with the Bible.
So do I, which is the source and supply of our exchanges.
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Where did I ask if the Bible was flesh?
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@YourTruthGod wrote:
The scriptures do say Jesus is God.
Jesus is the Word of God, and was God, and came in the flesh. You know those scriptures?
You said: The Scriptures do teach that they are the Word of God, They came in writing by God inspiring men of God. Now then, according to your manner of interpretation by which you claim that "scriptures do say Jesus is God", you would then say that the Bible (the Scriptures) is God ??
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@YourTruthGod wrote:
You said: The Scriptures do teach that they are the Word of God, They came in writing by God inspiring men of God. Now then, according to your manner of interpretation by which you claim that "scriptures do say Jesus is God", you would then say that the Bible (the Scriptures) is God ??
That is what YOU would have to say if you were consistent.
I am consisteent, and since the Bible (the Word of God in writing) is NOT God, and Jesus (the Word that became flesh) is equally NOT God.
Also, I take it that you did realize that I had NOT claimed that the Bible was flesh !
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As to the texts:
says nothing about Jesus. says the Spirit of God, who lives in us, "raised Jesus from the dead." The one/power who raised Jesus cannot also BE Jesus.
says Christ sits at God's right hand. It does NOT say Christ is "God's spirit."
The scriptures say JESUS INTERCEDES for us.
The scriptures say the SPIRIT INTERCEDES for us.
They are the same.
That is why some scriptures say the Spirit intercedes and some scriptures say Jesus intercedes.
2 Cor 3.17-18 indeed says Jesus is the Spirit, but I disagree with your conclusion about the meaning attached to the word "Spirit." I think Paul must be talking about "the Spirit of the Lord" (v.17) as in the Spirit of Jesus - distinct from the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God.
- You have a big problem because you don't know that there is only one Spirit.
- Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
1 Corinthians 12:4 There are different gifts, but the same Spirit.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Could you please stop using the bullet feature because it interferes with my posting.
In Paul saGod" raised Jesus, later in the same verse appearing to make God and "the Spirit of God" synonymous, the presence in us of the latter Spirit giving "life to our mortal bodies." Again I assert that the one who raised Jesus cannot also BE Jesus.ys iThere are different gifts, but the same Spirit.t was "the power of the Holy Spirit" that raised Jesus, and in he says "the Spirit of
- There is only one Spirit, AND some scriptures say JESUS raised himself, and some say God raised Jesus , and some say the Father raised Jesus, and one says the Holy Spirit raised Jesus. The are INTERCHANGEABLE because they are ONE AND THE SAME.
In Paul tells the Corinthians they were made right with God by "calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Another clear distinction/separation between Jesus and God's Spirit.
- God communicates to us by three. The three are still the one and only Spirit. There is God the Father who is Spirit and lives in unapproachable light, and there is Jesus who is the same Spirit as God the Father but also has a physical body, and there is the Holy Spirit that is God's Spirit that gets sent forth.
says THROUGH Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. The one THROUGH whom we receive the Spirit cannot also BE the Spirit
- They are one and the same.
- Jesus is God the Father coming as a man, and a slain lamb.
- The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
In Paul says "the Spirit of Jesus Christ" helps him , a spirit Paul makes no effort to equate to God's- or the Holy Spirit.
- So you think Jesus is a different Spirit?
- Then tell me this, how many Spirits are you given when you are saved?
- YOU ARE ONLY GIVEN ONE SPIRIT when you are saved, BUT WHEN YOU ARE SAVED, YOU HAVE THE FATHER AND JESUS LIVING IN YOU>
- That is more proof they are ONE AND THE SAME.
- in my view, not written by Paul, but still very much on point - the writer says God "washed away our sins, giving us new life through the Holy Spirit," which God poured out on us "through Jesus Christ our Savior." That which God poured out THROUGH Jesus can't also BE Jesus.
God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH JESUS. See Titus 3:6. whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
God pours out the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT. God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. See Romans 5:5.
God poured out the Holy Spirit through Jesus in one of the scriptures, and the other says God poured out the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
This confirms that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.
In Peter tells Cornelius and company that God "anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power," power by which Jesus did good and performed healings because "God was with him," presumably through the Holy Spirit" by which God had anointed him.
The upshot of this analysis, in my view, is that for Paul and other NT writers, the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God are synonymous and different from "the Spirit of the Lord" referenced in 2 Cor 3.17-18. (Full disclosure: In Romans 8.9 Paul appears to equate the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God, thereby raising a conflict. As I have said before, we must all resolve such conflicts to the best of our abilities. I do so by acknowledging the conflict and drawing my conclusion from the WHOLE of Scripture, not just one or two passages.)
Jesus is God come AS A MAN, and was given supernatural power by God for his earthly ministry.
Jesus did the same thing for the apostles.
Luke 24:49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."
Acts 18:1 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you;
In your previous post, your wrote, "God the Father is called the Savior, Redeemer, the Holy One of Is Israel. and those are the same things Jesus is called." In response, I asked you to cite the verse(s) in which Jesus is called "Redeemer" or "the Holy One of Israel." Neither the Galatians nor the Isaiah text calls Jesus "Redeemer" or "the Holy One of Israel." I grant that one who redeems us is of course a redeemer, but your claim was that he was "called" "redeemer," which I don't think he is. He is described as one who redeems, but not called one. And the Isaiah text is not about Jesus; it's about God ("the Lord of Heaven's Armies" to be precise).
I gave you scriptures that call Jesus the Savior, and he is the redeemer. He is the Holy One of Israel.
Acts 3:14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you.
The closest you've come is an LEB translation footnote, and the reason that's the closest you've come is that there are no verses that say Jesus is God. You CLAIM there are, and you interpret verses to mean there are, but none actually says Jesus is God.
If God doesn't want you to see it then that is the way it is.
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@YourTruthGod posted:
The scriptures say JESUS INTERCEDES for us.
The scriptures say the SPIRIT INTERCEDES for us.
They are the same.
That is why some scriptures say the Spirit intercedes and some scriptures say Jesus intercedes.
Jesus is NOT the Holy Spirit. They are NOT the same. We disagree. The difference is that in my last post I provided an argument for my view that was rooted in nine Scripture verses/passages. At most, you have cited a single passage, one whose relevance and probity in this issue my post brought into serious doubt.
I commented directly on your one passage. Please comment directly on each of my nine passages.
You have a big problem because you don't know that there is only one Spirit.
There is one Holy Spirit. As I have argued, and as I think is backed up in the texts I cited, "the Spirit of Jesus" is NOT the same as the Holy Spirit. There is NO text that equates them. In fact, Peter says God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit, which makes the distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit obvious (God did not anoint Jesus with himself).
Could you please stop using the bullet feature because it interferes with my posting.
I prefer to use bullets, so I will continue to do so, but negating their interference with your posting is simple: Mouse-select the bulleted points, then from the formatting menu items found to the left of the selected texted click on the paragraph icon, which looks like a reverse, double-lined "P." Doing so will convert the bullet points into conventional paragraph text.
There is only one Spirit, AND some scriptures say JESUS raised himself, and some say God raised Jesus , and some say the Father raised Jesus, and one says the Holy Spirit raised Jesus. The are INTERCHANGEABLE because they are ONE AND THE SAME.
You claim there are "Scriptures" (plural) that say Jesus raised himself. I say there is AT BEST one such text, and that text doesn't really really assert that Jesus raised himself. Please cite the other text(s) which you claim say Jesus raised himself.
I accept and respect as your personal faith claim your assertion that Jesus and God are "ONE AND THE SAME." But I also accept it as a claim that is without biblical foundation.
God communicates to us by three. The three are still the one and only Spirit. There is God the Father who is Spirit and lives in unapproachable light, and there is Jesus who is the same Spirit as God the Father but also has a physical body, and there is the Holy Spirit that is God's Spirit that gets sent forth.
In Acts 16, Luke indeed equates the Holy Spirit with the spirit of Jesus, but such is clearly not the case in the rest of the NT:
- Romans 1.4 - Jesus was shown to be the Son of God when he was raised by the power of the Holy Spirit, a verse in which Paul makes NO effort or even suggestion that Jesus, the one raised, raised himself.
- Romans 8.11 - It is the power of the Spirit that raised Jesus which gives life to our mortal bodies. The Spirit is by grammatical necessity different from the one the Spirit raised.
- 1 Cor 6.11 - We are made right with God by "calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Another clear distinction between Jesus and God's Spirit.
- 1 Cor 12.3 - "No one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit." And another clear distinction between the Spirit and Jesus.
- Titus 3.6 - God poured out God's spirit on us THROUGH Jesus Christ. The one through whom God poured out the Spirit cannot be the Spirit.
I again ask you to comment directly on each of these passages.
They are one and the same.
Jesus is God the Father coming as a man, and a slain lamb.
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
There is no biblical warrant for the first two of these claims.
So you think Jesus is a different Spirit?
Yes.
Then tell me this, how many Spirits are you given when you are saved?
One.
YOU ARE ONLY GIVEN ONE SPIRIT when you are saved, BUT WHEN YOU ARE SAVED, YOU HAVE THE FATHER AND JESUS LIVING IN YOU>
Again a logic issue: My heart is in me. My lungs are in me. Therefore, my heart and lungs must be the same. Obviously not. I have God in me and I have Jesus in me. Two distinct spirits.
This confirms that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.
No. The Titus text proves Jesus and the Holy Spirit are NOT the same. The words of the text are clear: Jesus is the one THROUGH WHOM God pours out the spirit. When I pour water into a glass through a filter, I am NOT saying the filter is the water. That THROUGH WHICH the Spirit flows cannot be the Spirit.
Jesus is God come AS A MAN, and was given supernatural power by God for his earthly ministry.
Jesus did the same thing for the apostles.
I accept and respect these as your faith claims.
I gave you scriptures that call Jesus the Savior, and he is the redeemer. He is the Holy One of Israel.
I asked for the verse(s) in which Jesus is "called" (your word) "redeemer" and "the Holy One of Israel." Please cite those erses.
If God doesn't want you to see it then that is the way it is.
Now THAT'S a "cop out." 😝
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