A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity

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  • edited April 8

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Where is God The Father's foreknowledge in John 17:5 (AV)

    @Wolfgang Simple and straight forward answer to your question: It is right in Jesus' very own words " ... the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

    According to Jesus in John 17:5

    1. Who is living before the world was ?
    2. Who had (was having) Glory ?
    3. How many human(s) existed before the world was created ?

    @Wolfgang Please,.. stop your habit of accusing the other of exactly those things you yourself are doing! If you can't stop that habit, just stop writing!

    Please shema (hear & obey) loving words spoken by Jesus:

    Luke 6:31 (AV) And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

    Luke 6:39-45 (AV) And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye. For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690
    edited April 8

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus According to Jesus in John 17:5


    Who is living before the world was ?

    God, to Whom Jesus refers as his Father, was alive before the world was.

    Who had (was having) Glory ?

    The glory spoken of pertained to Jesus.

    How many human(s) existed before the world was created ?

    John 17:5 does not address this matter

    According to Eph 1:4, believers in Christ existed before the foundation of the world. According to 1Pe 1:20 the Messiah was foreknown (existed in God's foreknowledge) before the foundation of the world.

    Please shema (hear & obey) loving words spoken by Jesus:

    Luke 6:31 (AV) And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

    Luke 6:39-45 (AV) And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye. For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

    Thanks for your moral sermon, make sure YOU do what you preach.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus According to Jesus in John 17:5

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Who is living before the world was ?

    @Wolfgang God, to Whom Jesus refers as his Father, was alive before the world was.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Who had (was having) Glory ?

    @Wolfgang The glory spoken of pertained to Jesus.

    is Jesus alive in John 17:5 ?

    John 17:5 (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ , πάτερ , παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

    What does the Greek preposition παρὰ say about relative location between Jesus and πάτερ (God The Father) ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How many human(s) existed before the world was created ?

    @Wolfgang John 17:5 does not address this matter

    @Wolfgang According to Eph 1:4, believers in Christ existed before the foundation of the world. According to 1Pe 1:20 the Messiah was foreknown (existed in God's foreknowledge) before the foundation of the world.

    Paul wrote one long Greek sentence that is numbered Ephesians 1:3-14 (AV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    One God's plan in choosing/designing humans before creating the world appears in Paul's long sentence along with One God's desire for us to be Holy in Love = every human chooses what to Love most: sin (inherited human nature from Adam) OR God (who trusted/believed in Christ).

    1 Peter 1:13-25 (AV) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    One God planned Holy redemption (foreordained) before creating the world and humans so we can believe/choose to be Holy as God is Holy.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    is Jesus alive in John 17:5 ?

    ?? ... since he prayed in the garden in John 17:5, he obviously was alive ... At the time when God would glorify him with that glory God already had in mind for His Messiah, obviously Jesus would be alive ...

    John 17:5 (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ , πάτερ , παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

    What does the Greek preposition παρὰ say about relative location between Jesus and πάτερ (God The Father) ?

    Jesus would be alongside God, his Father ... as we learn in other scriptures, God elevated and glorified Jesus to sit at God's right hand


    As for the rest of your reply, I have no clue why you elaborate over large paragraphs ... when the point of my answer to your earlier question in order to simply indicate that not only Messiah Jesus was in God's plan and foreknowledge but also the believers.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus According to Jesus in John 17:5

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Who is living before the world was ?

    @Wolfgang God, to Whom Jesus refers as his Father, was alive before the world was.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Who had (was having) Glory ?

    @Wolfgang The glory spoken of pertained to Jesus.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus is Jesus alive in John 17:5 ?

    @Wolfgang ?? ... since he prayed in the garden in John 17:5, he obviously was alive ... At the time when God would glorify him with that glory God already had in mind for His Messiah, obviously Jesus would be alive ...

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus John 17:5 (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ , πάτερ , παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What does the Greek preposition παρὰ say about relative location between Jesus and πάτερ (God The Father) ?

    @Wolfgang Jesus would be alongside God, his Father ... as we learn in other scriptures, God elevated and glorified Jesus to sit at God's right hand

    In John 17:5, is Jesus alongside God, Father, before the world was created ?

    (rephrasing earlier "is Jesus alive in John 17:5 ?" that was a follow-up to "Who is living before the world was ?")

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    In John 17:5, is Jesus alongside God, Father, before the world was created ?

    (rephrasing earlier "is Jesus alive in John 17:5 ?" that was a follow-up to "Who is living before the world was ?")

    No, God's plan for the Messiah from before the world was included the Messiah being glorified and being placed alongside God (cp. "seated at the right hand of God").

    Jesus was not living alongside God before the world was, Jesus is now, after having received that glory because of his obediencee to endure the suffering even unto death, living in glory alongside God, his Father ... as he is seated at the right hand of God.

  • edited April 9

    Please translate phrase: ὅτι ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What does the Greek preposition παρὰ say about relative location between Jesus and πάτερ (God The Father) ?

    @Wolfgang Jesus would be alongside God, his Father ... as we learn in other scriptures, God elevated and glorified Jesus to sit at God's right hand

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In John 17:5, is Jesus alongside God, Father, before the world was created ?

    (rephrasing earlier "is Jesus alive in John 17:5 ?" that was a follow-up to "Who is living before the world was ?")

    @Wolfgang No, God's plan for the Messiah from before the world was included the Messiah being glorified and being placed alongside God (cp. "seated at the right hand of God").

    @Wolfgang Jesus was not living alongside God before the world was, Jesus is now, after having received that glory because of his obediencee to endure the suffering even unto death, living in glory alongside God, his Father ... as he is seated at the right hand of God.

    Searching "A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament" (Abbott-Smith, 1922) for plan finds two lemmas:

    ἐπι-βουλή, -ῆς, ἡ, [in LXX: Es 2:22, 1 Es 8:73, 2 Mac 5:7, al.;] a plan against, a plot: Ac 9:24; 20:3, 19; 23:30.†

    **δημιουργός, -οῦ, ὁ (< δῆμος, ἔργον), [in LXX: 2 Mac 4:1*;] 1. one who works for the people. 2. Univ., an author, builder, maker; the maker of the world (Xen., Mem., 1, 4, 9, al.), He 11:10.†

    Syn.: κτίστης, creator, τεχνίτης, craftsman, designer. In He, l.c., τ. has reference to the plan, δ. to its execution.

    Plan lemmas are not in John 17:5 (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ , πάτερ , παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

    Greek preposition παρὰ (alongside) occurs twice in John 17:5 describing relative location between Jesus and πάτερ (God The Father).

    Again sad (while not surprised) about faith belief idea 'God's plan for the Messiah from before the world was included the Messiah being glorified and being placed alongside God (cp. "seated at the right hand of God").' being an eisegetical example of reading plan into Scripture words prayed by Jesus, which answers my earlier question:

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Which is more credible ? your faith belief ideas OR what Jesus prayed ?

    Note: my question text "what Jesus prayed" reflects Scripture word usage by Jesus (without my interpretation that Jesus is always being God because Jesus existed alongside God The Father before creating the world and humans). My other interpretation is Jesus and Father are two voices in One God's commUnity of Love 😍who are intensely & immensely intertwined so we humans can live on every word from Jesus to do God The Father's will => every word of Jesus must be True to glorify God. If Jesus ever lied, then Jesus is a sinner who would be disqualified from One God's Holy plan for the Messiah to provide a way for eternal redemption (adoption) of humans into One God's Holy family.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Plan lemmas are not in John 17:5 (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ , πάτερ , παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

    But "lived" and "experienced" lemmas are of course somewhere in the words which Jesus prayed and which are recorded in the verse?? While the actual word "plan"" is not used by Jesus, what other option is there in light of the truths that THE MAN JESUS prayed and speaks of "BEFORE THE WORLD WAS ??? There is no other option in Scripture excep what I pointed out from Scripture regarding God and God'ss plan from before the world was ....

    I don't really care about what lemmas there are, since I figured out that what the text says in just about all German Bible translations and all English Bible translations is plain. The problem, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus , is in you not understanding the context and especially so the remote context and overall scope regarding the Messiah's suffering and glory and which came first and which followed.


    Keep smiling 😀, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus ... except, it won't make false interpretations to all of a sudden be in harmony with the rest of Scripture and true.

  • edited April 9

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Plan lemmas are not in John 17:5 (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ , πάτερ , παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

    @Wolfgang But "lived" and "experienced" lemmas are of course somewhere in the words which Jesus prayed and which are recorded in the verse??

    What words describe/translate Greek verb εἶχον ? Rhetorical question: Can one who is not alive be having (experiencing) God's Glory ?

    πάτερ , παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον (εἶχον is imperfect (continual past time action), active, indicative, first person, singular of verb ἔχω to have)

    Father , beside yourself the glory that I was having

    @Wolfgang While the actual word "plan"" is not used by Jesus, what other option is there in light of the truths that THE MAN JESUS prayed and speaks of "BEFORE THE WORLD WAS ??? There is no other option in Scripture excep what I pointed out from Scripture regarding God and God'ss plan from before the world was ....

    Jesus was alongside (παρὰ) God The Father before the world was so Jesus was having (εἶχον) God's Glory before "In the Beginning" creation. Jesus (The Word) humbled Himself by leaving the right hand of God for the Joy set before Him to endure crucifixion for us (Holy substitute sacrifice for sin). After resurrection proved Jesus is both God and human, Glorified Jesus, God's Priestly King of Righteousness, returned to the right hand of God and was given all authority in heaven and on earth. One God's commUnity of Love implemented creation, which included Holy redemption plan for The Word (portion of eternal God) to become the man Jesus (via the seed of the woman as prophecied in Genesis 3:15).

    @Wolfgang The problem, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus , is in you not understanding the context and especially so the remote context and overall scope regarding the Messiah's suffering and glory and which came first and which followed. ... except, it won't make false interpretations to all of a sudden be in harmony with the rest of Scripture and true.

    In this "A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity" thread, please focus your comments on Scripture (no need for problem ananlysis of me that really reflects what is in your own eyes: "false" means unbelievable to you). One God is True so my human desire is learning & knowing One Holy God's Truth, which has consistent harmony: e.g. God Loves Us (and sees the image of God in us). Does Holy God like our sin ? No. God Loves Us. 😍 God provided one way for sinful humans to become Holy that is consistent with God's Love so each human has free will to choose what to Love most.

    Luke 6:31 (AV) And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690
    edited April 9

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, I am no longer giving any more of my time and efforts to replying to your posts ... talking to a broken record is not worth it. Your moral accusatory "ah soooo righteous" preaching you can address to yourself

    Keep smiling 😀

  • Thankful can continue praying for you and @Bill_Coley to know God's Truth (possibly by dreams and/or visions) while knowing you have free will to choose what you believe/love most. If you have Scripture text question(s), please ask.

    Thankful for this day the Lord has made so can Rejoice and Be Glad in it 😍 Thankful for new song in my heart to Praise God while humanly alone at home for virus social distancing with Breath The Holy (God) presence inside me 😍 Thankful for Hillsong Worship song "So will I (100 Billion X)" that begins "There is more" album so Worshipping One Holy, Awesome, Wonderful, Righteous God with hands uplifted 😍

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • What are some primary proof texts in Scripture showing a plural unified God's commUnity of Love ? (needs both Old & New Testament texts)

    Scriptural basis of a plural unified God includes Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (the most important commandment), which has mixture of singular and plural words inspired by One God to describe Holy God with command to Love plural unified God that begins with: Hear & Obey (shema) Israel, LORD (YHVH) God (plural God of us) LORD (YHVH) One Being (echad) and you shall Love LORD (YHVH) God (plural God of you singular) with all ...

    Priestly prayer of Jesus in John 17 includes two action expressions (Glory & Love in One God) that precede "In the Beginning" creation: John 17:5 (NLT) Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began. & John 17:24 (NLT) Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began! + echoes One God (as stated in Deuteronomy 6:4-9) in John 17:22 (NLT) we are one.

    Did Jesus ever lie ? God is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19), if any word(s) spoken by Jesus = a lie, then Jesus is not God.

    While remembering discussion between Jesus and disciples on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:24-39 what did Moses write about Jesus ?

    Genesis 3:15 seed of the woman. Meaning of names in Genesis 5 shows an outline of God's plan (But/contrast between Kenan & Mahalalel)

    • Adam - man OR "human race" OR "human being"
    • Seth - placing OR "to place" OR "to appoint"
    • Enosh - multitude OR mortal (figuratively => melancholy)
    • Kenan - possession OR "to erect, to build or occupy as a nest"
    • Mahalalel - praise of God OR praise the Almighty
    • Jared - descent OR "to bring down"
    • Enoch - initiated OR dedication OR consecration
    • Methuselah - "man of a dart" OR "when he dies, it shall be sent"
    • Lamech - powerful OR warrior OR conquerer
    • Noah - comfort OR rest

    After Pesach, counting the Omar corresponds to counting the days from the death of Jesus to Breath The Holy being sent as Truthful comforter. Matthew 11:28-30 (NLT) Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.” (my faith belief in Jesus as Lord God allows my human soul to be intensely experiencing Holy God's comfort & rest)

    Abraham & Isaac sacrificial story in Genesis 22 foreshadows Jesus wearing a crown of thorns during crucifixion (Ram's head caught in thorns).

    Bronze serpent story in Numbers 21 includes anyone who had been bitten by a serpent (remember Genesis 3 for serpent role in human sin) looking up to one lifted up on wood for healing. (my faith believes blood of Jesus provides Holy redemption for my sin so can look up & believe)

    Humanly still praying, looking & learning more about plural unified God in the writings of Moses.

    This CD thread includes discussion about Isaiah 9:6-7 and Jeremiah 23:5-6 prophecies about Jesus being both YHVH (Lord) God and human son.

    For Breath The Holy (Ruach HaKodesh), Romans 8:26-30, Isaiah 63:7-10, 2 Samuel 23:1-7, Ezekiel 11, and 1 Corinthians 12 have proof texts.

    How can power pray to One Holy God about our human weaknesses using groanings that cannot be expressed in words per Romans 8:26 ?

    What is "the mind of the Spirit" in Romans 8:27 ? If Breath The Holy (Ruach HaKodesh) is only power, how could power have a mind (intelligence) of its own ? Acts 5:1-11 documents deaths of Ananias and Sapphira for lying to Breath The Holy (God)

    Can power be grieved ? Isaiah 63:10 (ESV) But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; (אֶת־ר֣וּחַ קָדְשׁ֑וֹ - Breath/Wind Holiness His - ruah qodes hu)

    What did King David know about Breath The Holy speaking words through King David in 2 Samuel 23:1-7 ? (e.g. Psalms 2, 22, 51, ...)

    Ezekiel 11 describes Breath The Holy leading Ezekiel (showing wickedness known by One God) and giving words to Ezekiel.

    Can power choose what Holy spiritual gift(s) are given to humans so we can help/love one another ? (1 Corinthians 12)

    While remembering Jewish convention of reading Gd's Holy Name (YHVH) as Adonai (LORD) and 1 Corinthians 12:3, try saying "Jesus is Lord" (cannot be done while believing Jesus is not God). A True Christian has turned from their sin to Praise God by believing & saying "Jesus is Lord !" A plural unified God enables humans to know Holy God is real while humans have free will to choose/receive God's gift of Grace that cleanses sin.

    Keep Smiling 😊

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