A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity

1246

Comments

  • edited February 13

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Please answer Psalm 110:1 question posed by Jesus in Matthew 22:43-45 (NLT) Jesus responded, “Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit, call the Messiah ‘my Lord’? For David said, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’ Since David called the Messiah ‘my Lord,’ how can the Messiah be his son?”

    @Wolfgang The answer ist very simple => Messiah could be David's son because he is a human being who is of the line of David.

    How can King David's human descendant be my Lord = the Messiah = the Christ = The Annointed Holy One = God's eternal Priestly King of Righteousness (Psalm 110, Jeremiah 23:5-6) ?

    Melchizedek is a Hebrew word that means King (Melchi) Righteousness (zedek) that is consistent with Jeremiah 23:6 Lord (YHWH) Righteousness (Tzidkenu) name for Jesus as spoken by Lord (YHWH) in both Psalm 110:4 (forever = eternal) and Jeremiah 23:5-6Isaiah 9:6-7 (NLT) For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GodEverlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His government and its peace will never end. He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David for all eternity

    @Wolfgang What is your self-inflicted and self-induced problem???????

    Personally hate my sin nature, which was inherited from Adam (from one man sin entered the world, which included spiritual death = separation from Holy God). Thankful for God's free gift of GRACE => God's Righteousness At Christ's Experience 😍Thankful for image of God in me so have reason to Love God with all my very (essence) so God's Love can flow into me followed by flowing out to everyone 😍

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Unanswered can mean lack of responses (not applicable here) or lack of substance (applicable). Previous faith belief assertions woefully lack substance for explaining Jewish legal judgement of Leviticus 24:16 Blasphemy (cursing Gd) in Scripture text (punishable by being put to death).

    In a TEXT-BASED discussion, noted evasion of Scripture text counter points to previous faith belief assertions:

    I DID NOT evade your Scripture text. I have directly addressed that question multiple times in our exchanges. That you have not, cannot, haven't tried or don't want to search for, or perhaps refuse to acknowledge those multiple engagements is in my view, your concern, not mine.

    In my last post, I summarized my basic contentions, though not the textual engagements I've offered in the multiple posts I engaged your question. I can't help but notice that while claiming, falsely, that I have evaded your question, you didn't even mention - in fact, you have NEVER mentioned on ANY of the occasions I made the argument - the first of my two points of contention: The fact that Pharisees BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT PROVE that Jesus claimed to be God. Please address that argument directly. If I BELIEVE you're wrong about the divinity of Jesus, does that PROVE you're wrong about the divinity of Jesus?


    Jesus anwered plainly under oath (by the Living Gd) using Jewish expressions: (NLT has * references)

     "You have said it." where "it" confirms identity of "the Messiah, the Son of God" (God's Priestly King of Righteousness)

     And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand. => * 

     and coming on the clouds of heaven." => * 

     “I . => *  (plus later spoken by Jesus in  "I Am the one ...")

     And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand => * 

     and coming on the clouds of heaven.” => * 

     "If I tell you, you won’t believe me. ... (rightly declared heart condition of Jewish humans conducting religious "trial")

     But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God’s right hand.” => * 

     “You say that I am.” =>  (plus later spoken by Jesus in  "I Am the one ....")

    In these texts you have demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be

    • the Messiah
    • the Son of God
    • the Son of Man who will sit at God's right hand

    ... but you have NOT demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be God. (e.g. One who sits at God's right hand cannot be God.)


    Where in the Jeremiah 23:5-6 is "NOT a member of a Godhead" ? appears definition that a human cannot be God is being read into the text where LORD (YHVH) says righteous descendant of King David has name: LORD (YHVH) Righteousness (Tzidkenu) so human shares LORD God name.

    I don't have to read anything into the text to conclude that the one God will raise up will NOT be part of a Godhead. The text itself makes that clear, as I noted in my previous post.

    As for David's name, 1 Samuel 9.1 refers to Saul's grandfather "Abiel," whose name in Hebrew means "God is my father." Does that mean Abiel was the Son of God? Clearly not. A Bible character's name does NOT and CANNOT confer divinity on him or her.


    Please answer Psalm 110:1 question posed by Jesus in Matthew 22:43-45 (NLT) Jesus responded, “Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit, call the Messiah ‘my Lord’? For David said, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’ Since David called the Messiah ‘my Lord,’ how can the Messiah be his son?”

    In its original context, Psalm 110 is a royal psalm, and the second "lord" of v.1 is an ancient king of Israel, one whom God will protect (Psalm 110.5).

    Jesus uses the Psalm 110 verse to further his claim to be the Son of God when he argues that David, to whom Jesus ascribes authorship of at least that Psalm, called "the Messiah" his "Lord." The impact of Jesus' question in Matthew 22.45 is to say the Messiah - a role with which Jesus self-identifies - is the "LORD's" (i.e. God's) son. The claim of this passage is clearly NOT that Jesus is God, but rather that he - the Messiah - is God's son.


    Where in the text is "a child already born in the prophet's time" that fulfills Isaiah 9.6-7 prophecy, which includes being the eternal ruler ?

    A child born in the prophet's time is in the language of the text: "For a child IS born to us, a son IS given to us." That's NOT the language of a birth to happen 700 years in the future! It's a chronology in line with that of Isaiah 7, where the prophet predicts the destruction of the Syro-Ephraimite alliance against Judah within 65 years (Isaiah 7.7-8), before the child whose birth he predicts "is old enough to choose what is right and reject what is wrong" (Isaiah 7.15-16).

    And his eternal rule? In 2 Samuel 7, God tells David (through Nathan) that David will not be the one to build a temple; his son will. Of Solomon, who did build the temple, God says:

     10 And I will provide a homeland for my people Israel, planting them in a secure place where they will never be disturbed. Evil nations won’t oppress them as they’ve done in the past, 11 starting from the time I appointed judges to rule my people Israel. And I will give you rest from all your enemies.  “‘Furthermore, the LORD declares that he will make a house for you—a dynasty of kings! 12 For when you die and are buried with your ancestors, I will raise up one of your descendants, your own offspring, and I will make his kingdom strong. 13 He is the one who will build a house—a temple—for my name. And I will secure his royal throne forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. If he sins, I will correct and discipline him with the rod, like any father would do. 15 But my favor will not be taken from him as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from your sight. 16 Your house and your kingdom will continue before me for all time, and your throne will be secure forever.’ ” [2 Samuel 7.10-16]

    It is the throne of the child, and the kingdom and the "house" the child's father, David, that are to be eternal, NOT the child or the father themselves.

    And if you dispute my interpretation of the 2 Samuel 7 text, here's a piece of the parallel passage from 1 Chronicles 22:

    9 But you will have a son who will be a man of peace. I will give him peace with his enemies in all the surrounding lands. His name will be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel during his reign. 10 He is the one who will build a Temple to honor my name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will secure the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’ 

    Again, it's the throne - or the lineage of the throne - that is forever, NOT Solomon himself. The same is true of the reference to the ruler in Isaiah 9.


    Noticed Isaiah 43:13 snatch reference (Scripture explaining Scripture) missing from your John 10.27-29 reading:

    John 10:28-29 (NLT) No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.

    Isaiah 43:12-13 (NLT) You are witnesses that I am the only God,” says the Lord. “From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand. No one can undo what I have done.” 

    Why does Jesus believe no one can snatch his sheep from him? Because GOD (the one he calls "Father") - who is more powerful anyone - has given them to him. Jesus testifies to GOD'S power and position in John 10, NOT his own.

    But whose power and position does God laud in Isaiah 43? GOD'S!! God testifies to God's own power and position in Isaiah 43, which means BOTH of the texts you cite testify to God's power and position, but NEITHER testifies to Jesus' power and position (except the power and position God gives to Jesus, of course)


    John 10:30 (NLT) The Father and I are one.” 

    As I have noted more than once in our exchanges, the oneness Jesus reports here is an assertion of intimacy, NOT a claim of divinity. How do we know that? Review the following section of Jesus' prayer for his followers presented in John 17:

    20 “I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. 21 I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. 

    Clearly, by the use of the "one" and "in me/you/us" imagery Jesus does NOT mean his disciples will be God or Jesus. He means they will experience deep spiritual intimacy. In my view, that's also what he means in John 10.30.


    While remembering Exodus 20:13 (NLT) "You must not murder" commandment, please explain motivation to kill Jesus.

    I've addressed this question more than once as well in our exchanges:

    • In Mark 11.18, they plan to kill Jesus after he overturned tables in the temple.
    • In John 10.33, people pick up rocks to stone Jesus because they think he's claimed to be God.
    • In Matthew 26.59-60, leaders search for false testimony against Jesus to defend their desire to kill him.
    • In Matthew 26.65-66, they reach a guilty verdict after Jesus claims to be the Messiah, the Son of God.


    Revelation 2:18...23 (NLT) This is the message from the Son of God, ... all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve. 

    Jeremiah 17:9-10 (NLT) “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I, the Lordsearch all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.” 

    Proverbs 16:2 (NLT) People may be pure in their own eyes, but the Lord examines their motives.

    Proverbs 21:2 (NLT) People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord examines their heart. 

    In Revelation 2, Jesus VERY CLEARLY claims to be the Son of God. He DOES NOT claim to be God.

    The Old Testament references are clearly to God, not the Son of God.


    Could subservience of Jesus to God be a Love expression of humility and self-control ? (two aspects of Holy Righteous Fruit that pleases God)

    Here you might be referring to pieces of Philippians 2.5-11 where Paul says Jesus "did not think of equality with God as something to cling to." Later in the same hymn, however, Paul makes the distinction between God and Jesus clear:

       8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 


    Appears your multi-year isolated Scripture snippet text studies (using chapter and verse numbering that has a number of misalignment issues with original language sentences) has resulted in portions of Scripture text becoming unbelievable to you (reflects your choice what to believe): e.g. assertion "I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God." about Matthew 1:18-25 and "When I contend that there is nothing in Acts 9 or Acts 26 to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God, that means as I read the text itself there is nothing in those chapters to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God."

    This claim of yours is false here, as it has been false every time in you have made it in our exchanges. At some point in our exchanges I hope you will decide to stop making false claims about me. In fact, I hope you will decide to stop making ANY claims about ME, and instead make comments exclusively about the issues of this thread and the Bible texts we each cite.


    Three days after personally encountering Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus, Saul is praying to Lord Jesus, which the Lord Jesus told to Ananias:

    Acts 9:11-12 (NLT) The Lord said, “Go over to Straight Street, to the house of Judas. When you get there, ask for a man from Tarsus named SaulHe is praying to me right now. I have shown him a vision of a man named Ananias coming in and laying hands on him so he can see again.” 

    Saul prays to the resurrected/glorified Jesus, not to God.

    "Lord" here means master or leader. It does NOT mean "God." How do we know? In Acts 9.20 Saul launches his preaching ministry with the message that Jesus "is indeed the Son of God!"


    Ananias objected in Acts 9:13-14 (NLT) “But Lord,” exclaimed Ananias, “I’ve heard many people talk about the terrible things this man has done to the believers in Jerusalem! And he is authorized by the leading priests to arrest everyone who calls upon your name.” 

    Ananias obeyed the Lord (Gd) Jesus as described in Acts 9:17 (NLT) So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

    If Saul did not believe Lord Jesus is God, why would Saul be praying to Lord (Gd) Jesus (with prayer being answered via Ananias) ?

    "Lord" doesn't mean God here; it means master or leader. Hence, Saul does NOT pray to "Lord (Gd)." See Acts 9.20.


    Acts 9:3-4 (NLT) As he was approaching Damascus on this mission, a light from heaven suddenly shone down around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?” 

    Gd's "persecuting" question to Saul begins zealous belief shattering followed by answer of Jesus to Saul's identification question: "Who are you, Lord (Gd) ?" so Saul is praying to the Lord (Gd) Jesus three days later with the Lord (Gd) Jesus communicating prayer & answer to Ananias.

    The text explicitly quotes Jesus, NOT God, as asking Saul about his persecution.


    By the way, "That's CLEARLY not the meaning of Paul's question" assertion assumes faith belief of "Paul CLEARLY does not believe Jesus is God" (another way to express your "When I contend that there is nothing in Acts 9 or Acts 26 to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God, that means as I read the text itself there is nothing in those chapters to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God." faith belief likely accumulated from many text doubting thoughts)

    False... yet again. Please stop making statements about me - false or otherwise - and stick to the texts and issues of this thread.


    Christ = the Messiah so opening sentence of Romans reflects Saul's zealous belief shattering Q & A encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus. Also Paul knew Jewish usage of Lord (Adonai) meaning Gd (YHWH). Simple identification clause reflects belief Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν (literally Jesus Christ the Lord of us). How can Jesus Christ be Lord (diety authority in our life) if believe Jesus is not God ?

    In my view, we worship and follow Jesus as the Son of God ( Romans 1.4-5) and the glorified Christ, the one God has "elevated... to the place of highest honor...." In sum, we follow Jesus because God has commanded us to follow Jesus.


    The 2006 OpenText.Org Syntactic Clause Analysis shows one Greek sentence is Romans 1:1-7 (NLT) This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ (the Messiah) Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News. God promised this Good News long ago through his prophets in the holy Scriptures. The Good News is about his Son. In his earthly life he was born into King David’s family line, and he was shown to be the Son of God when he was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is Jesus Christ (the Messiah) our Lord (Gd). Through Christ (the Messiah), God has given us the privilege and authority as apostles to tell Gentiles everywhere what God has done for them, so that they will believe and obey him, bringing glory to his name. And you are included among those Gentiles who have been called to belong to Jesus Christ (the Messiah). I am writing to all of you in Rome who are loved by God and are called to be his own holy people.

    The text does NOT say Jesus was God.


    My apologies for Leviticus 24.6 that proves me being a human while typing Leviticus 24:16 (context is Leviticus 24:10-23)

    Leviticus 24.16 defines blaspheming the name of God to be a capital offense. As I have stated many times, the fact that Pharisees and others BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT PROVE that Jesus actually claimed to be God. If I BELIEVE the moon is three feet from the earth, does that PROVE the moon is three feet from the earth? Obviously not. The same is true about religious leaders' claims that Jesus claimed to be God.


    Paul choose to obey commands spoken by Lord (Gd) Jesus from Heaven:

    In his Acts 26 telling of his conversion experience, Paul does NOT speak of Jesus as "(Gd)." He speaks of him as "Lord," by which he clearly refers to the authority or power of the one who spoke to him, NOT to his divinity.

    Your persistence in claiming that texts say things that they don't say is noteworthy - perhaps even commendable as a display of tenacity - but it does not change the fact that though Bible texts ALWAYS say what they say, THEY DO NOT ALWAYS SAY what we want them to say.


    Assertion "I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God." affirms question "What is unbelievable about Jesus literally being the Son of God ?" validity while not providing any insight about what is unbelievable (plus implies some words inspired by One True Gd thru humans => unbelievable).

    I think God can do anything God wants to do that doesn't violate the rules of order God has established (for example, God can't make a square peg fit perfectly in a round hole, for were that peg to fit such a hole perfectly, by definition it would no longer be square; and God can't make one person love another, for compelled love is, by definition, not love at all) I think the order of creation God established is that all humans are born of two human parents. So while I don't think it's IMPOSSIBLE for God to create a child through a virgin birth, I do think that's not the way God designed human birth.


    NAC Commentary of Matthew 4:5-7 includes a footnote hypothesis: Matthew’s order is probably more chronological (cf. τότε—[“then”] in v. 5) and Luke’s more thematic (Luke 4:1–13), in which the temple episode appears last as a climax in keeping with Luke’s distinctive emphasis on Jesus’ relationship with the temple.

     Craig Blomberg, Matthew, vol. 22, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1992).

    From a degree of separation perspective, personally prefer Matthew (one degree away from Jesus) over Luke (two degrees away).

    I respect your view, but I choose to believe each Gospel writer put the temptations in the order he understood they occurred. If Luke wanted to emphasize the temple as the culmination of the scene, I think he would have used words such as, "And finally, the devil led Jesus...." As written, there is no indication in the Gospel of such an emphasis.

    I also prefer, whenever possible, the simplest interpretation of Bible texts. Such a practice for me in this case does not produce a conclusion that one sequence is "probably" correct, or that I "personally prefer" one over the other. I simply read the two stories, acknowledge the sequence discrepancy, and move on. I don't find it a significant issue, but it IS a discrepancy.


    @Bill_Coley So I ask you again for citations of texts in which the expressions NT writers use to describe Jesus report the writers' belief that Jesus was God.

    None of the passages you cited in response to my request report a Gospel writer's belief that Jesus was God.


    We disagree about degree of difference between Jesus and God: e.g. two distinct entities OR two voices within One God's commUnity of Love.

    We agree about this disagreement!

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Unanswered can mean lack of responses (not applicable here) or lack of substance (applicable). Previous faith belief assertions woefully lack substance for explaining Jewish legal judgement of Leviticus 24:16 Blasphemy (cursing Gd) in Scripture text (punishable by being put to death).

    In a TEXT-BASED discussion, noted evasion of Scripture text counter points to previous faith belief assertions:

    @Bill_ColeyDID NOT evade your Scripture text. I have directly addressed that question multiple times in our exchanges. That you have not, cannot, haven't tried or don't want to search for, or perhaps refuse to acknowledge those multiple engagements is in my view, your concern, not mine.

    In my last post, I summarized my basic contentions, though not the textual engagements I've offered in the multiple posts I engaged your question. I can't help but notice that while claiming, falsely, that I have evaded your question, you didn't even mention - in fact, you have NEVER mentioned on ANY of the occasions I made the argument - the first of my two points of contention: The fact that Pharisees BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT PROVE that Jesus claimed to be God. Please address that argument directly. 

    Multiple faith belief assertions have been consistently, woefully frivilous for explaining Jewish High Priest blasphemy judgement. Jewish Religious Leaders undeniably, unmistakably understood answer by Jesus so choose Jewish legal death penalty of blasphemy (for Cursing Gd). The "fact that Pharisees BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT PROVE that Jesus claimed to be God" assertion premise is false because the Pharisees & Sadducees did NOT BELIEVE Jesus while understanding what Jesus truthfully said about Himself (so interpreted what Jesus said as Cursing Gd). If Jewish Religious Leaders had believed Jesus, appropriate action would have been to Worship Jesus (instead of having Jesus brutally put to death).

    Earlier assertion on February 3rd: "That the Pharisees or other religious leaders accused Jesus of claiming to be God DOES NOT mean Jesus actually claimed to be God. It means ONLY that they accused him of claiming to be God." reads like a personal rationalization excuse (not based on Scripture) for maintaining faith belief (while being unable to appreciate Jewish Religious Leader reaction & "self-righteous" motivation to kill Jesus).

    @Bill_Coley If I BELIEVE you're wrong about the divinity of Jesus, does that PROVE you're wrong about the divinity of Jesus?

    No. If choose to change faith belief about divinity of Jesus, then Peter's bitter tears will become personally intense (plus please remember Jesus restored Peter to feed the lambs and sheep believing in Jesus). Sadly remembered you (along with Jewish Religious Leaders who failed to guard their hearts for Loving Gd with all of their very being while intensely studying scripture so Jesus lovingly rebuked them in John 8:42) while reading Proverbs 21:4 and Proverbs 16:18 (with warning for me to remember Proverbs 4:23 while striving to obey Deuteronomy 6:4-9 and Leviticus 19:18)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jesus answered plainly under oath (by the Living Gd) using Jewish expressions: (NLT has * references)

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) "You have said it." where "it" confirms identity of "the Messiah, the Son of God" (God's Priestly King of Righteousness)

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand. => * Psalm 110:1

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven." => * Daniel 7:13

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) “I Am. => * Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ...")

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand => * Psalm 110:1

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven.” => * Daniel 7:13

       Luke 22:67 (NLT) "If I tell you, you won’t believe me. ... (rightly declared heart condition of Jewish humans conducting religious "trial")

       Luke 22:68 (NLT) But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God’s right hand.” => * Psalm 110:1

       Luke 22:70 (NLT) “You say that I am.” => Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ....")

    @Bill_Coley In these texts you have demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be

    the Messiah

    the Son of God

    the Son of Man who will sit at God's right hand

    ... but you have NOT demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be God. (e.g. One who sits at God's right hand cannot be God.)

    What did Jewish Judge (High Priest) and Sanhedrin Religious Leaders present at the trial of Jesus interpret as Cursing Gd, which deserved legal death penalty of Blasphemy ? (from belief that all human flesh cannot be Holy, Psalm 14, so any human claming to be Gd is guilty of blasphemy)

    If we were discussing humans, then one human sitting at right hand of another human would be two humans (cannot be one physically). Human wisdom "One who sits at God's right hand cannot be God." assumes human limitations for human creator. Could One Gd design human body and procreation so One Gd could choose to have part of Gd's Spirit ruling in Holy Heaven while another part of Gd's Spirit is inside one human body ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Where in the Jeremiah 23:5-6 is "NOT a member of a Godhead" ? appears definition that a human cannot be God is being read into the text where LORD (YHVH) says righteous descendant of King David has name: LORD (YHVH) Righteousness (Tzidkenu) so human shares LORD God name.

    @Bill_Coley I don't have to read anything into the text to conclude that the one God will raise up will NOT be part of a Godhead. The text itself makes that clear, as I noted in my previous post.

    Clearly we "see" (& understand) the text differently. Noticed NOT does not appear in Jeremiah 23:5-6 text. Assertion "the one God will raise up will NOT be part of a Godhead" is consistent with faith belief that does not believe Jesus is literally the Son of Gd (physical conception inside Mary). Does disbelief of scripture text change truthfulness of the text inspired by One Holy Gd (written through humans) ?

    @Bill_Coley As for David's name, 1 Samuel 9.1 refers to Saul's grandfather "Abiel," whose name in Hebrew means "God is my father." Does that mean Abiel was the Son of God? Clearly not. A Bible character's name does NOT and CANNOT confer divinity on him or her.

    Concur humanly given names do not confer divinity. When LORD (YHVH) Gd declares the name of the righteous descendant to be LORD (YHVH) Righteousness, believe Gd name confirms divinity so descendant of King David has part of LORD (YHVH) Gd's Righteous spirit inside human body.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Please answer Psalm 110:1 question posed by Jesus in Matthew 22:43-45 (NLT) Jesus responded, “Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit, call the Messiah ‘my Lord’? For David said, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’ Since David called the Messiah ‘my Lord,’ how can the Messiah be his son?”

    @Bill_Coley In its original context, Psalm 110 is a royal psalm, and the second "lord" of v.1 is an ancient king of Israel, one whom God will protect (Psalm 110.5).

    Only human king of Israel prior to King David was King Saul who was rejected by Gd due to Saul's disobedience 1 Samuel 15:10-11. Ancient of days is a title for Gd. Please study "historical present"/"futuristic present" uses of present tense verbs to describe past/future events in Scripture.

    @Bill_Coley Jesus uses the Psalm 110 verse to further his claim to be the Son of God when he argues that David, to whom Jesus ascribes authorship of at least that Psalm, called "the Messiah" his "Lord." The impact of Jesus' question in Matthew 22.45 is to say the Messiah - a role with which Jesus self-identifies - is the "LORD's" (i.e. God's) son. The claim of this passage is clearly NOT that Jesus is God, but rather that he - the Messiah - is God's son.

    What is the textual basis for "role" ? (searching 319 English Bibles in Logos for the word "role" in the Gospels finds Matthew 6:6 in The Message "Find a quiet, secluded place so you won’t be tempted to role-play before God." and Kenneth S. Wuest has several phrases in The New Testament: An Expanded Translation "Actors on the stage of life, playing the role of that which you are not, ..." spoken by Jesus about Jewish Religious Leaders.

    Concur Jesus self-identifies as The Messiah, The Son of Gd, which is consistent with being the literal, physical Son of Gd (a portion of One Gd's Holy Righteous Spirit) inside human flesh (while a portion of One Gd's Holy Righteous Spirit rules in Heaven).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Where in the text is "a child already born in the prophet's time" that fulfills Isaiah 9.6-7 prophecy, which includes being the eternal ruler ?

    @Bill_Coley A child born in the prophet's time is in the language of the text: "For a child IS born to us, a son IS given to us." That's NOT the language of a birth to happen 700 years in the future! It's a chronology in line with that of Isaiah 7, where the prophet predicts the destruction of the Syro-Ephraimite alliance against Judah within 65 years (Isaiah 7.7-8), before the child whose birth he predicts "is old enough to choose what is right and reject what is wrong" (Isaiah 7.15-16).

    Assertion "That's NOT the language of a birth to happen 700 years in the future!" simply lacks credibility (from lack of Hebrew language expertise). United Bible Society (UBS) Handbook for Translating Isaiah - "Graham S. Ogden and Jan Sterk, A Handbook on Isaiah, ed. Paul Clarke et al., vol. 1 & 2, United Bible Societies’ Handbooks (Reading, UK: United Bible Societies, 2011), 282." includes:

    A major concern for many commentators is to establish the identity of the child spoken of in verses 6–7. The Hebrew text is not at all specific, offering no evidence that connects the Davidic child here with the child called Immanuel in chapter 7 or with the Davidic person in chapter 11. Scholars are fascinated by possible connections. But we cannot readily establish from the text whether these passages all refer to the same person. Other considerations are used to suggest that relationship. For translators, however, this question remains largely irrelevant since we render the text as it stands as accurately as possible.

    A linguistic contextual counter-point can be found by searching Logos Bible software for ([field heading,largetext] present,perfect,imperfect) WITHIN 2 WORDS (dramatic,historical,gnomic,futuristic,prophetic) that finds many articles/chapters (165 in my library) about verbal usage and associated time of action. For searching Grammar resources, modification ([field heading,largetext,surface] present,perfect,imperfect) WITHIN 2 WORDS (dramatic,historical,gnomic,futuristic,prophetic) finds many sentences about verbal syntax meaning, including:

    Max Rogland, Alleged Non-Past Uses of Qatal in Classical Hebrew

    (Studia Semitica Neerlandica, vol. 44; Assen: Royal van Gorcum, 2003), vii + 164 pp. Paper. €49.00. ISBN 90-232-3973-3

    Reviewed by Agustinus Gianto

    Pontifical Biblical Institute, Rome

    As the title indicates, this book deals with the use of qatal in Hebrew to refer to situations that take place in the present or even in the future rather than, as expected, in the past. And indeed, cognate forms of qatal in other Semitic languages are known to include such non-past uses. The question is whether one can take such usage as part of the meaning of qatal, a form that prima facie expresses the past, or should one look for some other explanation.

    Terminology apart, the alleged non-past uses of qatal discussed in this book fall into three groups presented in the three main chapters of the book: (1) those which seem to express a general truth in sayings—this is what is usually known as “gnomic perfect” (pp. 15–51); (2) those which present some future happening as if it were already a reality—this is generally called “prophetic perfect” since this use is mostly found in prophetic literature (pp. 53–114); (3) those instances in which the situation takes place during the moment of utterance. This third group is now known as “performative perfect” (pp. 115–126).

    The main contribution of the book is not so much to provide a new explanation about these uses as to examine critically the assumptions made to describe those uses of qatal as referring to non-past events. Basically the author attempts to maintain the past meaning as much as possible. Alternative explanations are sought when this meaning does not fit. Each of the three main chapters dealing with the non-past usages starts with a summary of what has been said about it both by the traditional grammars and by more modern approaches.

    The strength of the work lies in the discussion on the individual examples which often lead to a re-evaluation of the alleged non-past uses of qatal. Hence, in the case of the gnomic perfect, often claimed as stating a general truth such as is found in proverbs, the author comes up with cases in which the proverbs state reports of specific experience or observation of some situation in the past. One such example is Prov 18:22 “He found (מָצָא) a wife, he found (מָצָא) a good thing, and he received (wayyiqtol) favor from YHWH”. This statement is definitely about the past rather than a general truth, which, in this case, is a lesson from which one may learn. Hence the meaning is not, as is often thought, “he who finds …”, which has often been taken as the basis for the non-past qatal meaning there. A number of other cases usually treated as gnomic perfects are shown to belong to the realm of the past and so it is no longer necessary to insist on the “general present” interpretation.

    The same sound critical procedure also appears in the chapter dealing with the prophetic perfect. The author notes that this term can no longer be used to label diverse uses of qatal which have something to do with futurity. To remedy this, he introduces the notion of relative tense, namely that the situation may be anterior to a future event. It is clear that the anteriority expressed by qatal has something to do with some future event, but this does not mean that the form as such refers to the future. One of the examples given is Balaam’s words in Num 24:17 “I see (impf.) him, but not now; I regard (impf.) him, but he is not near. A star went forth (דָרַךְ) from Jacob.… a scepter rose up (וְקָם) …” The first qatal is often labeled as a prophetic perfect and rendered as “will go forth”, especially since the next form seems to be a converted perfect weqataltí. But the author considers it as conjunctive waw plus qatal instead. He also proposes to see the situation spoken about here as simply belonging to the past. This is especially clear when one realizes that the passage merely reports a vision. The use of qatal in dream reports also belongs here. Apparently, it is the use of this verbal form in reporting an irreal situation that suggests its non-past reference. But the dream and the vision themselves are past events.

    The performative perfect, on the basis of cross-linguistic evidence, is shown not to have inherent connection with tense, aspect or mood. Even if this is true, the question remains why in Hebrew precisely qatal can express this sense. This is an area that still awaits further study. Following up that line it may be suggested that qatal, being a form that indicates a past event, also expresses a lingering relevance to the moment of utterance. That is to say, the event is not completely separated from the present, or for that matter from the future. This also gives the impression that the activity spoken about happens at the moment of utterance. Lingering relevance may also explain the relative tense/anteriority mentioned above.

    Given its clarity and generally sound approach, this book will be a welcome addition to Hebrew studies.

     Agustinus Gianto, “Review of Alleged Non-Past Uses of Qatal in Classical Hebrew by Max Rogland,” Journal of Hebrew scriptures: Volume 5 5, no. 20 (2004–2005): 102.


    @Bill_Coley Again, it's the throne - or the lineage of the throne - that is forever, NOT Solomon himself. The same is true of the reference to the ruler in Isaiah 9.

    Who is the eternal ruler that fulfills Isaiah 9:6-7 prophecy ? What are some name(s) of the eternal ruler ? e.g. LORD (YHVH) Righteousness

    Proverbs 30:4 (NLT) Who but God goes up to heaven and comes back down? Who holds the wind in his fists? Who wraps up the oceans in his cloak? Who has created the whole wide world? What is his name—and his son’s name? Tell me if you know! 

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Noticed Isaiah 43:13 snatch reference (Scripture explaining Scripture) missing from your John 10.27-29 reading:

    John 10:28-29 (NLT) No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.

    Isaiah 43:12-13 (NLT) You are witnesses that I am the only God,” says the Lord. “From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand. No one can undo what I have done.” 

    @Bill_Coley Why does Jesus believe no one can snatch his sheep from him? Because GOD (the one he calls "Father") - who is more powerful anyone - has given them to him. Jesus testifies to GOD'S power and position in John 10, NOT his own.

    But whose power and position does God laud in Isaiah 43? GOD'S!! God testifies to God's own power and position in Isaiah 43, which means BOTH of the texts you cite testify to God's power and position, but NEITHER testifies to Jesus' power and position (except the power and position God gives to Jesus, of course)

    How can Jesus give eternal life without being Gd (in human flesh) ? Jesus did not refer to Father Gd for giving eternal life to sheep obeying Jesus.

    John 10:25-30 (NLT) Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” 

    @Bill_Coley As I have noted more than once in our exchanges, the oneness Jesus reports here is an assertion of intimacy, NOT a claim of divinity.

    Assertion "of intimacy" does not curse Gd so has no motivating reason for original Jewish audience to pick up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy.

    @Bill_Coley How do we know that? Review the following section of Jesus' prayer for his followers presented in John 17:

    20 “I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. 21 I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. 

    @Bill_Coley Clearly, by the use of the "one" and "in me/you/us" imagery Jesus does NOT mean his disciples will be God or Jesus. He means they will experience deep spiritual intimacy. In my view, that's also what he means in John 10.30.

    How can one believe/experience deep spiritual intimacy in One Gd while believing Jesus did not have a portion of Gd's Holy Righteousness inside human body ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Revelation 2:18...23 (NLT) This is the message from the Son of God, ... all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve. 

    Jeremiah 17:9-10 (NLT) “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I, the Lordsearch all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.” 

    Proverbs 16:2 (NLT) People may be pure in their own eyes, but the Lord examines their motives.

    Proverbs 21:2 (NLT) People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord examines their heart. 

    @Bill_Coley In Revelation 2, Jesus VERY CLEARLY claims to be the Son of God. He DOES NOT claim to be God.

    @Bill_Coley The Old Testament references are clearly to God, not the Son of God.

    How can The Son of Gd have the authority & ability to do The Lord Gd's work of searching/examining human hearts & motives (followed by giving whatever is deserved) ?


    FYI: praying/pondering about responding (or not) to remainder of previous reply (personally puzzled by a number of assertions, including "false" ones lacking substance).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690
    edited February 27

    Assertion "the one God will raise up will NOT be part of a Godhead" is consistent with faith belief that does not believe Jesus is literally the Son of Gd (physical conception inside Mary).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus you can forget about your constant talk of "assertion" and "faith belief", since you give the impression that such is only on the part of other posters, not on your part. Your "faith belief assertions" are valid, others' "faith belief assertions" are false.

    The above quoted statement from your recent post is a false assertion and false claim. I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was conceived by God's miraculous working causing the conception inside Mary. I also believe that the one mentioned in OT prophecy whom God will raise up is NOT part of a Godhead.

    YOU are the one who is wrong in claiming that the "Assertion "the one God will raise up will NOT be part of a Godhead" is consistent with faith belief that does not believe Jesus is literally the Son of Gd (physical conception inside Mary)."

    And that is not the only false faith belief assertion on your part ...

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    The "fact that Pharisees BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT PROVE that Jesus claimed to be God" assertion premise is false because the Pharisees & Sadducees did NOT BELIEVE Jesus while understanding what Jesus truthfully said about Himself (so interpreted what Jesus said as Cursing Gd). If Jewish Religious Leaders had believed Jesus, appropriate action would have been to Worship Jesus (instead of having Jesus brutally put to death).

    Earlier assertion on February 3rd: "That the Pharisees or other religious leaders accused Jesus of claiming to be God DOES NOT mean Jesus actually claimed to be God. It means ONLY that they accused him of claiming to be God." reads like a personal rationalization excuse (not based on Scripture) for maintaining faith belief (while being unable to appreciate Jewish Religious Leader reaction & "self-righteous" motivation to kill Jesus).

    This response misunderstands the point I made about the Pharisees. I offered NO COMMENT as to whether the Pharisees themselves believed Jesus was God. The issue I raised was solely about the significance of the Pharisees' belief about what Jesus claimed about himself; it had NOTHING to do with what they themselves believed about Jesus.

    • Did the fact that the Pharisees believed Jesus claimed to be God prove that Jesus in fact claimed to be God? No. Just because the Pharisees believed Jesus claimed to be God does NOT mean Jesus actually claimed to be God any more than my saying the earth is three feet from the moon proves that the earth is actually three feet from the moon.
    • In other words: The Pharisees were wrong to believe Jesus claimed to be God (because Jesus never claimed to be God!) just as I would be wrong to claim the earth is three feet from the moon (because the earth isn't three feet from the moon!)

    How my February 3 assertion "reads" to you is far more important to you than it is to me. The fact that it reads to you as something "not based on Scripture" raises doubts in my mind as to whether you've given serious attention to ANY of my posts in our exchanges, for my views on the divinity of Jesus are deeply rooted in Scripture as my posts have demonstrated. You disagree with my interpretation of texts - which you're free to do, of course - but that's very different from claiming my views have no Scriptural foundation.


    No. If choose to change faith belief about divinity of Jesus, then Peter's bitter tears will become personally intense (plus please remember Jesus restored Peter to feed the lambs and sheep believing in Jesus). Sadly remembered you (along with Jewish Religious Leaders who failed to guard their hearts for Loving Gd with all of their very being while intensely studying scripture so Jesus lovingly rebuked them in John 8:42) while reading Proverbs 21:4 and Proverbs 16:18 (with warning for me to remember Proverbs 4:23 while striving to obey Deuteronomy 6:4-9 and Leviticus 19:18)

    1. John 8.42 makes my point. Jesus tells his audience that he came "from God," and that he is not here on his own accord, but by the accord of the one who sent him. What a GREAT opportunity for Jesus to tell the crowd that he's God! But he doesn't do so. Instead, he makes clear that he's only here because the one who IS God sent him.
    2. Your use of texts that seem clearly to assert that I'm prideful, haughty, and wicked is YET ANOTHER in a painfully long series of dismissive and judgmental comments you have made about me personally, when the expectations of these forums include that we will "criticize ideas, not people." I have drawn this conduct to your attention on several occasions in the past, often eliciting from you an apology veiled in some form of confession of your need to do better. Sadly, your acknowledgements of error have not produced consequential change in your posting conduct. So with this paragraph, I surrender the cause. This is the last time I will quote or comment on the dismissive and judgmental personal content of your posts: STOP MAKING COMMENTS ABOUT ME. COMMENT ABOUT THE TEXTS I CITE AND THE INTERPRETATIONS AND ARGUMENTS I MAKE ALL YOU LIKE! BUT STOP MAKING COMMENTS ABOUT ME. PRAY FOR ME. PLEAD WITH GOD TO SAVE ME FROM THE FIRES OF HELL THAT YOU BELIEVE MY POSTS PROVE I DESERVE, BUT STOP MAKING COMMENTS ABOUT ME. NOT BECAUSE I ASK YOU TO, BUT BECAUSE THE EXPECTATIONS OF THESE FORUMS DIRECT YOU TO.


    What did Jewish Judge (High Priest) and Sanhedrin Religious Leaders present at the trial of Jesus interpret as Cursing Gd, which deserved legal death penalty of Blasphemy ? (from belief that all human flesh cannot be Holy, Psalm 14, so any human claming to be Gd is guilty of blasphemy)

    YET AGAIN, that people BELIEVED Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT PROVE that Jesus actually claimed to be God. The FACT is JESUS NEVER CLAIMED TO BE GOD, so those who believed Jesus claimed to be God and charged him accordingly WERE MISTAKEN.


    If we were discussing humans, then one human sitting at right hand of another human would be two humans (cannot be one physically). Human wisdom "One who sits at God's right hand cannot be God." assumes human limitations for human creator. Could One Gd design human body and procreation so One Gd could choose to have part of Gd's Spirit ruling in Holy Heaven while another part of Gd's Spirit is inside one human body ?

    Aside from the fact that the Holy Spirit is "inside" all of us, there is no textual support for the view you express here. There IS your "faith perspective" to that effect, but not textual support. The text makes a clear and uncontested - except by your faith perspective - distinction between God and the one who sits are God's right hand.


    Clearly we "see" (& understand) the text differently. Noticed NOT does not appear in Jeremiah 23:5-6 text. Assertion "the one God will raise up will NOT be part of a Godhead" is consistent with faith belief that does not believe Jesus is literally the Son of Gd (physical conception inside Mary). Does disbelief of scripture text change truthfulness of the text inspired by One Holy Gd (written through humans) ?

    Here are the Jeremiah verses in full context (Jeremiah 23.2-6, NLT):

    2 Therefore, this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to these shepherds: “Instead of caring for my flock and leading them to safety, you have deserted them and driven them to destruction. Now I will pour out judgment on you for the evil you have done to them. 3 But I will gather together the remnant of my flock from the countries where I have driven them. I will bring them back to their own sheepfold, and they will be fruitful and increase in number. 4 Then I will appoint responsible shepherds who will care for them, and they will never be afraid again. Not a single one will be lost or missing. I, the LORD have spoken! 

      5 “For the time is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will raise up a righteous descendant from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom.  He will do what is just and right throughout the land. 6 And this will be his name: ‘The LORD Is Our Righteousness.’  In that day Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety. 

    Notice:

    1. God's promise to raise up a descendant in King David's line in vv.5-6 seems to be a fulfillment of God's promise to appoint responsible shepherds (leaders) in v.4. God-appointed shepherds were humans, not gods.
    2. God promises to "raise up" a descendant - a king - of King David's line. There is NOTHING in that word choice to suggest God Godself will be raised up to rule with wisdom and do what's right. Descendants of David's line would be humans, just as David himself was human.
    3. What a perfect time for God to say, "And you will be able to trust the one I raise up because that one will be ME in human flesh!" But that's NOT what God says, nor does God give ANY indication of such an outcome.
    4. As I have noted previously, the name attached to the descendant God will raise up identifies the source of Israel's righteousness; it does NOT confer divinity on the descendant.


    Concur humanly given names do not confer divinity. When LORD (YHVH) Gd declares the name of the righteous descendant to be LORD (YHVH) Righteousness, believe Gd name confirms divinity so descendant of King David has part of LORD (YHVH) Gd's Righteous spirit inside human body.

    IN CONTEXT that's not the meaning of the language. The leader God will raise up will embody the truth about the source of Israel's righteousness.


    Only human king of Israel prior to King David was King Saul who was rejected by Gd due to Saul's disobedience 1 Samuel 15:10-11. Ancient of days is a title for Gd. Please study "historical present"/"futuristic present" uses of present tense verbs to describe past/future events in Scripture.

    I don't see the term "ancient of days" in Psalm 110.

    There is no indication in Psalm 110 that God is speaking to or about anyone other than a human leader/king.


    What is the textual basis for "role" ? (searching 319 English Bibles in Logos for the word "role" in the Gospels finds Matthew 6:6 in The Message "Find a quiet, secluded place so you won’t be tempted to role-play before God." and Kenneth S. Wuest has several phrases in The New Testament: An Expanded Translation "Actors on the stage of life, playing the role of that which you are not, ..." spoken by Jesus about Jewish Religious Leaders.

    "Role" in this context meant only position, status, or calling. Jesus was the Messiah/Christ, God's chosen one. That was one of his identities or roles. He was also God's "dearly loved son," for example.


    Concur Jesus self-identifies as The Messiah, The Son of Gd, which is consistent with being the literal, physical Son of Gd (a portion of One Gd's Holy Righteous Spirit) inside human flesh (while a portion of One Gd's Holy Righteous Spirit rules in Heaven).

    Common ground is rare for us, so thanks for that. But there is no textual support for your claim of "a portion of One Gd's Holy Righteous Spirit inside human flesh while a portion of One Gd's Holy Righteous Spirit rules in Heaven." There is surely your "faith perspective" that such is the case, but not textual support.


    Assertion "That's NOT the language of a birth to happen 700 years in the future!" simply lacks credibility (from lack of Hebrew language expertise). United Bible Society (UBS) Handbook for Translating Isaiah - "Graham S. Ogden and Jan Sterk, A Handbook on Isaiah, ed. Paul Clarke et al., vol. 1 & 2, United Bible Societies’ Handbooks (Reading, UK: United Bible Societies, 2011), 282." includes:

    You buttress your assertion that my claim "lacks credibility" with a quotation from a source whose principal conclusion is "we cannot readily establish from the text whether these passages all refer to the same person." Translation: We can't say for sure whether chapters 7 and 9 of Isaiah refer to the same child, so you might be right, but maybe not!... I don't find that compelling witness to your "credibility" claim.


     Agustinus Gianto, “Review of Alleged Non-Past Uses of Qatal in Classical Hebrew by Max Rogland,” Journal of Hebrew scriptures: Volume 5 5, no. 20 (2004–2005): 102.

    The meaning and consequence to our discussion of the section you quoted from this resource is not at all clear to me.


    Who is the eternal ruler that fulfills Isaiah 9:6-7 prophecy ? What are some name(s) of the eternal ruler ? e.g. LORD (YHVH) Righteousness

    Isaiah 9.7 makes clear that what's eternal about the prophesied leader is his government - his throne - not his own life. I read Isaiah 9 to mean the ruler will have an everlasting throne.

    Clearly, Matthew sees Jesus as the fulfillment of this prophecy, but it's worthy of note that neither he nor any other Gospel writer employs the Jeremiah 23 ("his name shall be 'the Lord is our righteousness'") language to describe Jesus.


    How can Jesus give eternal life without being Gd (in human flesh) ? Jesus did not refer to Father Gd for giving eternal life to sheep obeying Jesus.

    The John 10 text addresses your question: Giving eternal life to those God has given to him (John 10.29) is part of the work Jesus does in God's name (John 10.25) [See also John 5.19,30, where Jesus declares his powerlessness without God. The Son "can do nothing by himself," he says. "He only does what he sees the Father doing."]


    Assertion "of intimacy" does not curse Gd so has no motivating reason for original Jewish audience to pick up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy.

    YET AGAIN: That the original Jewish audience believed Jesus claimed to be God DOES NOT PROVE Jesus actually claimed to be God. Those who believed Jesus claimed to be God and then either picked up rocks or charged him accordingly were mistaken.


    How can one believe/experience deep spiritual intimacy in One Gd while believing Jesus did not have a portion of Gd's Holy Righteousness inside human body ?

    I think we all have a portion of God's righteousness in us, so I'm not sure what you mean by that phrase.

    Specific to your question, I think Jesus addresses it in his John 17 prayer:

    22 “I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. 23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me. 24 Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began! 

    25 “O righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me. 26 I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.  John 17.22-26

    We can have spiritual intimacy with God because Jesus has revealed God to us.


    How can The Son of Gd have the authority & ability to do The Lord Gd's work of searching/examining human hearts & motives (followed by giving whatever is deserved) ?

    Revelation 2.28 makes clear that God has given the glorified Jesus the authority to do whatever he does. This view is consistent with the message of the verses previously cited. Jesus can't do anything without God.



    FYI: praying/pondering about responding (or not) to remainder of previous reply (personally puzzled by a number of assertions, including "false" ones lacking substance).

    What lack "substance" are YOUR false claims about me and the role of my "faith perspective" in my biblical interpretation. In multiple posts I have demonstrated that your claims were false. NONE of this would be an issue IN ANY WAY, of course, were you simply to comply with the CD forum's "criticize ideas, not people" guideline. If you ever stop making claims about me personally - especially but not only the false ones - these issues will disappear.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    In other words: The Pharisees were wrong to believe Jesus claimed to be God(because Jesus never claimed to be God!)

    I am not so sure the Pharisees actually believed Jesus claimed to be God ... as it was all too clear and plain to anyone that a man can NOT be God, no matter what. I would think that the Pharisees on purpose falsely accused Jesus of making such claim, knowing very well that Jesus did NOT claim such !!

    They knew very well that the man Jesus of Nazareth standing in front of them was claiming to be that promised Messiah, that man who was to be the son of Abraham, the son of David and man's redeemer. However, the rejected him as that human Messiah (!!) in clear unbelief and disobedience and rebellion against God's revealed truth in the Scriptures. Their plan than In order to kill / murder him was to try and "catch him in his words" to fabricate a false accusation of blasphemy in order to convince the Roman ruler to have him executed on their behalf.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Wolfgang posted:

    I am not so sure the Pharisees actually believed Jesus claimed to be God ... as it was all too clear and plain to anyone that a man can NOT be God, no matter what. I would think that the Pharisees on purpose falsely accused Jesus of making such claim, knowing very well that Jesus did NOT claim such !!

    I welcome your amendment to my claim about the Pharisees, Wolfgang. Several times in my previous post I used language akin to "those who believed Jesus claimed to be God were mistaken." I should have used that same construct in my comments about the Pharisees for, as you note, it's not clear that they based their blasphemy charge against Jesus on a belief that he had claimed to be God. There ARE people who accuse Jesus of making such a claim in John 10.33, but those people are not identified as Pharisees.

  • Chapter 4 of "The Heart of Remarriage" book by Gary Smalley & Greg Smalley (2010) includes relationship of human beliefs and thoughts:

    According to Dr Bruce Lipton, world famous medical professor and human cell specialist, human beliefs are 10 million times more powerful at controlling our behavior than our thoughts are. You can think whatever you want, but your beliefs are always going to override your thoughts. You can wish for change, wish that you were happier, wish that you could get along better with your spouse, or wish that you were married to someone different, but no amount of wishing will change your behavior or emotions, because they are all determined by the beliefs that are already stored in your heart. Dr. Lipton also says that thoughts trump beliefs in the long run, because "new thoughts," thoughts you think over and over again, day after day, eventually change your old beliefs and establish new ones.

    During many agonizing months of CD discussions (with lots of prayers), have learned faith belief "as it was all too clear and plain to anyone that a man can NOT be God, no matter what." and "because Jesus never claimed to be God!" ideas truly have theological holes for "explaining" Scripture (along with judging everyone in the New Testament as having similar faith belief, which is a fantasy idea imposed on beliefs of others). Concur with my Pastor about me being unable to change human beliefs in others (while seeking to find holes in faith belief systematic theology).

    Who is the physical father of Jesus ?

    • Angelic message from Lord God to Joseph (a son of King David) in Matthew 1:18-25 included Mary's child was conceived by The Holy Spirit (her child did not have a human father so Mary had been humanly faithful to marriage contract with Joseph)
    • Jesus is truly unique for having God as His physical father (all other humans receive a portion of One God's breath of life into Adam, which includes unholy sin nature so are born spiritually dead & innocent). The WOW of God's design & creation is truly amazing.
    • Luke 3 has genealogy of Mary (seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15), who is a physical descendant of King David & Abraham
    • Jesus described Himself as "The Son of God" and "the Son of Man" (e.g. Luke 19:1-10 includes Jesus describing Zacchaeus as a true son of Abraham while using "the Son of Man" for self identification so Jesus knew His physical father was not human)
    • Jesus included Abraham in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 and heavenly banquet in Matthew 8:5-13
    • Jesus describing Himself as "from God" in John 8:42 shows Jesus knew The Spirit inside His Holy human body is being a portion of One God (consistent with Greek grammar for John 1:1c "and The Word was God" where all of The Word was being eternally God while all of One God is being more than The Word => so The Word that became human is a portion of One God).
    • Jesus knew of His existence before Abraham as spoken in John 8:58 “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!” (where "I Am" self identifies Jesus as being eternally a portion of God who shares the "I Am" self identification & name in One God).

    Related is What did Jesus (The Word) choose to humbly set aside so could be born humanly with Loving purpose of being Holy sacrifice for sin ? (consistent Love choice of always aligning in One God to do God's will so Jesus did nothing on his own separate from God)

    Observation about Blasphemy ideas that express faith belief by @Bill_Coley and @Wolfgang is lack of admissability in a Jewish court as motivating reasons for Jesus to be killed in accordance with Leviticus 24:10-23 (Cursing Gd) and Psalms 14 (quoted by Paul in Romans 3). Irony is our concurrence about Jewish Religious Leaders not believing the Truth spoken by Jesus (while disagreeing about Jewish Religious Leaders understanding what Jesus plainly said - was not a mistake to seek death penalty for Jesus, which included lying accusations by Jewish Religious Leaders to Roman authority that could be punished by death).

    Note: this CD thread has used "false" with two different meanings: factually false (with Scripture counter-points for text discussion) and unbelievably false (consistent with faith belief ideas while lacking Scripture basis).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Who is the physical father of Jesus ?

    According to records in Mt 1:18ff and Lk 1:35ff, God caused by His miraculous working via His holy spirit power the conception prior to Mary and Joseph having come together in marriage.

    Related is What did Jesus (The Word) choose to humbly set aside so could be born humanly with Loving purpose of being Holy sacrifice for sin ? (consistent Love choice of always aligning in One God to do God's will so Jesus did nothing on his own separate from God)

    Jesus (the Word) did NOTHING as you think or suggest happened. The MAN Jesus (that word which God, his Father, had in His foreknowledge and caused to become reality when His Word became flesh and the human being was actually conceived and then born) set aside pride and humbled himself to always do his Father's - God's - will.

    Irony is our concurrence about Jewish Religious Leaders not believing the Truth spoken by Jesus (while disagreeing about Jewish Religious Leaders understanding what Jesus plainly said - was not a mistake to seek death penalty for Jesus, which included lying accusations by Jewish Religious Leaders to Roman authority that could be punished by death).

    The Jewish leaders FALSELY accused Jesus of making himself like God ... Jesus NEVER said or claimed such, but ALWAYS declared that he was the Messiah, the only begotten SON of God and that God was his FATHER in heaven.

    Why is it that you speak about the error of "faith belief" in others, and never see that YOUR faith belief is the one in error??

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Who is the physical father of Jesus ?

    @Wolfgang According to records in Mt 1:18ff and Lk 1:35ff, God caused by His miraculous working via His holy spirit power the conception prior to Mary and Joseph having come together in marriage.

    Fascinating for Holy Spirit power having the inteliigence to properly & precisely fertilize human egg inside Mary resulting in Holy child (possibly with DNA coding for 24 chromosomes: 23 from Mary's egg and one from God with special DNA programming to ignore 22 missing components).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Related is What did Jesus (The Word) choose to humbly set aside so could be born humanly with Loving purpose of being Holy sacrifice for sin ? (consistent Love choice of always aligning in One God to do God's will so Jesus did nothing on his own separate from God)

    @Wolfgang Jesus (the Word) did NOTHING as you think or suggest happened. The MAN Jesus (that word which God, his Father, had in His foreknowledge and caused to become reality when His Word became flesh and the human being was actually conceived and then born) set aside pride and humbled himself to always do his Father's - God's - will.

    A related text is Philippians 2:1-18 so "Jesus (the Word) did NOTHING as you think or suggest happened." idea disagrees with Scripture. While remembering your 29 February idea "I am not so sure the Pharisees actually believed Jesus claimed to be God ... as it was all too clear and plain to anyone that a man can NOT be God, no matter what.", noticed idea expression "The MAN Jesus (that word which God, his Father, had in His foreknowledge and caused to become reality when His Word became flesh and the human being was actually conceived and then born) set aside pride and humbled himself to always do his Father's - God's - will." is a bit different than your first explanation of John 1 "plan" to me. Ideas disagree with self-identification in John 8:58 where Jesus knew His being before Abraham was born (over 2,000 years before God's conception inside Mary).

    Humanly not aware of any evidence to prove there was a time the Son was not; am aware of some humans who would not believe The Logos (Word) is eternally God. Teacher of Arius, Lucian, held fast to the idea of προκοπή (progress) as the path by which the Lord attained to Divinity.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Irony is our concurrence about Jewish Religious Leaders not believing the Truth spoken by Jesus (while disagreeing about Jewish Religious Leaders understanding what Jesus plainly said - was not a mistake to seek death penalty for Jesus, which included lying accusations by Jewish Religious Leaders to Roman authority that could be punished by death).

    @Wolfgang The Jewish leaders FALSELY accused Jesus of making himself like God ... Jesus NEVER said or claimed such, but ALWAYS declared that he was the Messiah, the only begotten SON of God and that God was his FATHER in heaven.

    Repeating scripture question asked earlier in this thread (shows truth from Jesus in Jewish "trial" does not match "ALWAYS" idea summary claim)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jesus answered plainly under oath (by the Living Gd) using Jewish expressions: (NLT has * references)

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) "You have said it." where "it" confirms identity of "the Messiah, the Son of God" (God's Priestly King of Righteousness)

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand. => * Psalm 110:1

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven." => * Daniel 7:13

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) “I Am. => * Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ...")

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand => * Psalm 110:1

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven.” => * Daniel 7:13

       Luke 22:67 (NLT) "If I tell you, you won’t believe me. ... (rightly declared heart condition of Jewish humans conducting religious "trial")

       Luke 22:68 (NLT) But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God’s right hand.” => * Psalm 110:1

       Luke 22:70 (NLT) “You say that I am.” => Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ....")

    What did Jewish Judge (High Priest) and Sanhedrin Religious Leaders present at the trial of Jesus interpret as Cursing Gd, which deserved legal death penalty of Blasphemy ? (from belief that all human flesh cannot be Holy, Psalm 14, so any human claming to be Gd is guilty of blasphemy)

    @Wolfgang Why is it that you speak about the error of "faith belief" in others, and never see that YOUR faith belief is the one in error??

    In keeping with "A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity" guidance, what Scripture(s) about One God do you see (believe) as being in error in me ? (Matthew 7:1-6 specks in my eyes may help you identify logs in your eyes + will gladly spend more hours praying to One plural unified God, who has three voices, along with revisiting & studying Scripture - humanly have learned about God's Love while having more to learn: Ephesians 3)

    My prayers include speaking/writing God's Truth in Love (Ephesians 4) using wise words from God (James 3). Thankful for CD thread discussions that includes prayerful agonizing about what to write (while remembering Proverbs 26:3-12 & hoping for 2 Timothy 2 truth conversion).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Wolfgang Why is it that you speak about the error of "faith belief" in others, and never see that YOUR faith belief is the one in error??

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In keeping with "A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity" guidance, what Scripture(s) about One God do you see (believe) as being in error in me ?

    Scripture is not in error ... YOUR INTERPRETATION (what you call "faith belief" is in error as it contradicts Scripture, adds to Scripture, doesn't regard context in Scripture, etc. in favor of man-fabricated ideology / theology.

    You talk about "One God", but your "One God" is not a single person as Scripture teaches in thousands of places where a singular pronoun "HE, HIM. HIS, etc) is used ... instead you have fabricated "one God" to actually be "A COMMUNITY" of THREE, thereby flat out contradicting the most basic fundamental simple and plain truth revealed in Scripture.

    Until you take that self-inflicted ideology beam out of your eyes, you will remain unable to see ... as evidenced in this thread and other threads as well. When your viewpoint ("faith belief") is shown from Scripture to be in error, you simply move on to another point, instead of addressing the matter and correcting the error, or else you just repeat your mantra ... as if more repetition would make it true.

  • @Wolfgang Why is it that you speak about the error of "faith belief" in others, and never see that YOUR faith belief is the one in error??

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In keeping with "A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity" guidance, what Scripture(s) about One God do you see (believe) as being in error in me ?

    @Wolfgang Scripture is not in error ... YOUR INTERPRETATION (what you call "faith belief" is in error as it contradicts Scripture, adds to Scripture, doesn't regard context in Scripture, etc. in favor of man-fabricated ideology / theology.

    @Wolfgang You talk about "One God", but your "One God" is not a single person as Scripture teaches in thousands of places where a singular pronoun "HE, HIM. HIS, etc) is used ... instead you have fabricated "one God" to actually be "A COMMUNITY" of THREE, thereby flat out contradicting the most basic fundamental simple and plain truth revealed in Scripture.

    @Wolfgang Until you take that self-inflicted ideology beam out of your eyes, you will remain unable to see ... as evidenced in this thread and other threads as well. When your viewpoint ("faith belief") is shown from Scripture to be in error, you simply move on to another point, instead of addressing the matter and correcting the error, or else you just repeat your mantra ... as if more repetition would make it true.

    Concur Scripture (original autographs) inspired by One God is Truthful. Thankful for God helping me understand Truth in Scripture (Ps 119:18), which includes literal application in my life literally pleasing God (plus provides faith reason for believing One God in things that humanly are beyond my ability to test: e.g. Jesus birth/transfiguration, Abraham interactions, heaven, hell, ...). My words are inadequate for expressing how much One God truly Loves every human (while not liking our sin choices - 1 John 3). Also inadequate are words to describe immensity of every aspect of Holy Spirit Fruit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control (Galatians 5:22-23)

    Along with me praying to speak/write God's Truth in Love (Ephesians 4) using wise words (James 3) is my heart intense prayers to hear & obey (shema) all three voices of One God = primarily Holy Spirit in me while knowing The Will (Father) and The Word (Jesus) having distinct voices too. Thankful for literal truth of "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted" that has included intense awareness of Holy Spirit in me (when my thoughts & actions please God). At times also learning wretched man in Romans 7 (am engaged in daily/hourly spiritual warfare, which includes enemy adversary being more subtle in attacks). Yet focusing first on God's Holiness allows me to be aware of Holy Spirit (e.g. Psalm 51).

    My description "One God's commUnity of Love" does not use the word "person" to avoid limitation associated with human person (one voice in one body inhabited by one soul/spirit). God (plural) said: Let us (plural) make man (singular) in our (plural) image (singular). Scripture documents three intelligent voices of One God: e.g. Elohim (plural) and Lord (singular) said in Old Testament. Jesus spoke in New Testament, Ananias & Sapphira experienced One God's judgement from lying to Holy Spirit. Also Holy Spirit selected Paul and Barnabus for the work of One God. Searching Logos for <Root = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> in Lexham Hebrew Bible finds 2,601 plural uses and 59 singular. Using adjective "majestic" does not change plural into singular (while has implication about no one ruling without One God). Revelation 19:16 includes description of Jesus being The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Most important commandment in scripture begins with plural unified God: Hear & Obey (shema) Israel, LORD (YHVH) God (plural God of us) LORD (YHVH) One Being (echad) and you shall Love LORD (YHVH) God (plural God of you singular) with all ...

    Mirrors reflect (believe what you have written about me truthfully reflects thee), which is consistent with Matthew 7:1-6 (easier to see specks in someone else's eyes that are really logs in one's own eyes, especially specks we do not like about ourselves).

    FYI: our spiritual adversary is the FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) master manipulator (John 10:10) whose purpose is to disrupt our Love relationship in One God using any means possible (including lying thoughts about the nature of One God). Personally have learned to prayerfully test every thought in me that begins with "I" due to "I" trouble in Isaiah 14:12-17 (am aware of three thought sources: One God, spiritual adversary, me). Thankful for Holy Spirit bringing specific sin(s) to remembrance in me (with His presence), which allows me to agree with One God that I have sinned plus ask God what lesson(s) for me to learn as One God faithfully forgives and cleanses from unrighteousness (not like hurt of cleansing, but enjoy Holy healing so am wanting One God to cleanse me of all my wickedness). Personally hate my sin nature while Love seeing God in me.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    My description "One God's commUnity of Love" does not use the word "person" to avoid limitation associated with human person (one voice in one body inhabited by one soul/spirit).

    Not using the word "person" doesn't help anything ... A "community" is by definition made up of more than one singular (to use different words) "entities", "actors", "individuals", etc.). Just as your omission of the pronoun "I" when speaking of yourself and using a somewhat strange manner of expressing what you are doing, etc. still means by plain implication that YOU are talking as the "I" you don't want to mention.

    Your faith belief "God" is actually a group, a team, of THREE ... Scripture teaches that there is only ONE single SPIRIT BEING acting as one single "SPIRIT (not human) PERSON" ...

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My description "One God's commUnity of Love" does not use the word "person" to avoid limitation associated with human person (one voice in one body inhabited by one soul/spirit).

    @Wolfgang Not using the word "person" doesn't help anything ... A "community" is by definition made up of more than one singular (to use different words) "entities", "actors", "individuals", etc.). ... Your faith belief "God" is actually a group, a team, of THREE ... Scripture teaches that there is only ONE single SPIRIT BEING acting as one single "SPIRIT (not human) PERSON" ...

    Idea of 'Scripture teaches that there is only ONE single SPIRIT BEING acting as one single "SPIRIT (not human) PERSON"' reflects circular reasoning (can only see in Scripture what you believe so cannot hear all Three Divine Voices in One God). This 'ONE single SPIRIT BEING' idea appears valid per your faith belief while contradicting Scripture: e.g. Thomas worshiping Jesus as "My Lord & My God !" (John 20:28) and Matthew 14:22-33 about Jesus walking on water (humanly impossible) that ends with those in the boat worshiped Him, saying "Truly you are the Son of God." (and Jesus received their worship, which would be sin against One God if the invisible Spirit inside the man Jesus was not a portion of One God's Spirit).

    Can you imagine the divine loving sadness in the voice of Jesus: Matthew 15:6-9 (ESV) So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “ ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ” (Portion of One God Spirit in the man Jesus immensely Loves everyone, including the Jewish Religious Leaders whose hearts became far from One God during their intense Scripture study). One God does not take pleasure in anyone dying (Ezekiel 18:32), but wants everyone to turn from their sin so they can live in One God's commUnity of Love.

    Because of well known human associations, would not use words "actors" nor "individuals" to describe One God (to avoid appearance of human limitations that do not apply to human creator). Concur "One God's commUnity of Love" is a group of THREE Divine Voices (like "Voices" better than "entities" since Scripture documents intelligent words of three Voices while "entities" is a bit more abstract). One Spirit (Heart, Soul, Strength, Name) of God is intimately shared by Three Voices: The Will (Father), The Word (Jesus), The Holy Breath, who continually choose to Love. God is Love (all Love is God while One God is more than Love: Holy, Pure, True, Righteous, Honorable, Admirable, Praiseworthy, Excellent, ...)

    One God inspired Hebrew language Scripture in many humans that uses singular and plural words to identify & describe One God. Hebrew language has singular, dual, and plural words, which means a minimum of three is needed for plural to be Truly correct about One God.

    One God designed one human so one breath of life into dust created Adam (with DNA design in Adam's cells that could be fashioned into Eve plus human replication that includes a portion of One God's breath of Life into human conception along with Adam's sin nature). Fascinating how one breath of Life from One God has flowed into millions of humans, who are equally Loved by One God while being physically distinct from each other. Every human reflects One God design of God's image. Seeing the image of God in me helps me Love One God with all my very being so God's Love flows into me so I can Love myself as God Loves me, which enables God's Love to flow through me out to others. The man Jesus is different from all other humans because The Father of Jesus is God (both physically & spiritually). The Word of God (Jesus) choose to lovingly obey The Will of God (The Father) to humbly reside in human flesh to joyfully become a Holy sinless sacrifice for all human sin (Hebrews 12).

    One God designed gravity. In the physical world, every human has experienced gravity's attraction to earth. (Rhetorical) Wonder how many humans are aware of more than one simultaneous gravitational pull on their body ? (Moon causes ocean tidal variance at the coasts and Earth's orbit around the Sun results in seasons). Humans can describe gravity (including variations around the Earth so a small percentage of human weight measurement depends on physical location), but have not figured out how to manipulate nor control gravity. Compared to One God's Spirit, gravity is relatively simple (as is light, time, and other items created by One God out of nothing). All nature declares the Glory of God.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Idea of 'Scripture teaches that there is only ONE single SPIRIT BEING acting as one single "SPIRIT (not human) PERSON"' reflects circular reasoning (can only see in Scripture what you believe so cannot hear all Three Divine Voices in One God).

    No circular reasoning involved ... simple reading of the thousands (!!) of places where HE, His, Him singular pronouns are found in reference to God. SIngular personal pronouns refer always to an individual, singular Being, Person, etc.

    You are the one with a strange reasoning .... you fix up language to fit your "faith belief", such as avoiding the word "person" but using the word "voice/voices".

    By the way, a parallel of what you are doing, so you perhaps realize your error: There is ONE president of the USA, there are several voices (also called "speakers", "press secretaries") ... you make those "voices" to actually be that one president.

    You claim there is One God Who is / has three "voices" .... just to disappoint you, Moses was a voice (spokesman, prophet) of God, so were a number of others who are called prophets in Scripture. Also, Jesus is described in prophecy as a prophet like unto Moses. If you were consistent, you would expand your particular God as a "CommUnity of love" having more than three voices.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Concur "One God's commUnity of Love" is a group of THREE Divine Voices (like "Voices" better than "entities" since Scripture documents intelligent words of three Voices while "entities" is a bit more abstract)

    Eh, who concurs there? your grandma? You? ... please clearly identify who concurs. I would think that it is not your grandma, but it is YOU (please clarify in subsequent posts by using the appropriate name or pronoun to avoid misconceptions.

    So you (understanding your statement above to have meant "I CONCUR ...") have THREE {whatever you want to call them ... it makes no difference} Who are each God ... if so, you have THREE GODs.

    Since you won't like the idea of actually having a "faith belief" with "three Gods", what are those "three voices" if they are not each God making a total of three Gods?

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Concur "One God's commUnity of Love" is a group of THREE Divine Voices (like "Voices" better than "entities" since Scripture documents intelligent words of three Voices while "entities" is a bit more abstract)

    @Wolfgang Eh, who concurs there? your grandma? You? ... please clearly identify who concurs.

    Your earlier reply on 18 March included 'Your faith belief "God" is actually a group, a team, of THREE ...' so my reply shows 'Divine Voices' for '...'

    @Wolfgang Your faith belief "God" is actually a group, a team, of THREE ... Scripture teaches that there is only ONE single SPIRIT BEING acting as one single "SPIRIT (not human) PERSON" ...

    We agree One God is ONE SPIRIT BEING while disagreeing about limitations of One God's Single Spirit plus how One God has chosen to Love us. My faith belief Thanks One God for choosing three Voices to express God's Love, which enables a portion (The Word) of One God's invisible spirit to inhabit human body of the Man Jesus (literally consistent with Matthew 1:18ff, Luke 1:35ff, and John 1:1-18 so Jesus is both God and Human).

    If One God's inspiration of Hebrew language Scripture by many humans had exclusively used singular words to identify & describe One God, then I would agree with idea 'Scripture teaches that there is only ONE single SPIRIT BEING acting as one single "SPIRIT (not human) PERSON" ...', but One God inspired a mixture of singular and PLURAL words to identify & describe One God. My faith believes ALL Scripture is True (plus knows translation process into different language is the intersection of original meaning and target language within the bounds of human believability). An example of human believability limitations shows in CD threads as your inability to describe my faith belief in a way that I would agree. Similar example is @Bill_Coley and you not believing Jesus received worship as Lord God (in spite of John 20:28 expression by Thomas and others ...). Your faith belief declares its own "fact" idea that the MAN Jesus could not be God so was impossible for Jesus to be worshipped as Lord God.

    What human can accurately predict his death will be followed by physical resurrection in three days ? Tomb lacks a body so words spoken by Jesus about human death and rising are True (modern methods in a murder trial => Jesus lived, died, and rose). I've experienced intellectually knowing Jesus is God ("Evidence Demands a Verdict") while not wanting to submit my will to One God (wanted to be Lord God of my own life), which took six years before I was willing & wanting to worship Jesus as Lord God (along with The Father & The Breath divine voices of One God).

    If the definition of being Christian is worshiping Jesus as Lord God (Acts 11), would you identify as Christian ? (especially when you could be put to death for not worshipping other gods). If given a choice to deny Jesus is God or physically die, which would you do ? (my choice is death)

    @Wolfgang By the way, a parallel of what you are doing, so you perhaps realize your error: There is ONE president of the USA, there are several voices (also called "speakers", "press secretaries") ... you make those "voices" to actually be that one president.

    Parallel fails. USA has ONE President, who can delegate authority to some people to speak on his behalf. Delegated people are not the President. Every human has their own distinct voice in a distinct body with a sinful human spirit (inherited from One God's breath of life into Adam). Jesus did not inherit sin tainted spirit from Adam. Hence USA President example fails to communicate my "error" about nature of One God. One God's commUnity of Love has Three Divine Voices, who always exist & communicate. Part of One God's image in human design & creation is the ability for humans to have conversations with themselves (if human invited spiritual adversary inside, can be an awful 'spiritual' convention of thoughts).

    @Wolfgang You claim there is One God Who is / has three "voices" .... just to disappoint you, Moses was a voice (spokesman, prophet) of God, so were a number of others who are called prophets in Scripture. Also, Jesus is described in prophecy as a prophet like unto Moses. If you were consistent, you would expand your particular God as a "CommUnity of love" having more than three voices.

    One God allows believing humans to abide in One God's commUnity of Love, but that does not make humans into gods (while God's Love filled communion is wonderful). Hebrews chapter 3 describes Moses being a servant in God's house while Jesus is a son (God) over God's house.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Hebrews chapter 3 describes Moses being a servant in God's house while Jesus is a son (God) over God's house.

    And neither God's servant nor God's son are God Himself.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Hebrews chapter 3 describes Moses being a servant in God's house while Jesus is a son (God) over God's house.

    @Wolfgang And neither God's servant nor God's son are God Himself.

    Faith belief idea "And neither God's servant nor God's son are God Himself." is asserted as a fact (while being partially true according to Scripture).

    Concur God's servant, Moses, is not God. Physical father of Moses was a descendant of Adam so Moses received sin tainted spirit of life (from One God's breath of Holy Life into dust to create Adam, which became spiritually dead when Adam sinned - Romans 5:12-14). Moses murdered an Egyptian followed by running away from Egypt (Exodus 2:11-15). After personal encounter (at burning bush) with One Holy God, Moses notably sinned once at the waters of Meribah (Numbers 20:2-13), which warns me to be all in for Loving One God with all my very being (while hating my sin nature inherited from Adam, which needs to be crucified daily - Luke 9:23-27).

    Human father and son always have a time relationship where the father is physically older than the son (takes years of human body growth before reproductive organs are functional). When One Holy God (plural Elohim) began creation out of nothing with "Let there be light" (Big Bang), One Holy God's commUnity of Love had Three Divine Voices: The Will, The Word, The Breath (my faith believes plural Elohim is Truly correct about One God having plural aspect in Voices while Being One in Spirit, Heart, Strength, Name => a plural unified God). Old Testament does not use "Father" as a direct address to God, but does use something like "O Lord God of (pronoun) father(s)". Remember Isaiah 9:6-7 (ESV) "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GodEverlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this." shows the child born, son, shall be called Mighty God, Everlasting Father, which is spiritually and physically impossible for a child whose father is a descendant of Adam (spiritually dead spirit of life so human descendants are born unholy and innocent with sin nature plus Adam was created by One God's breath of life so is not everlasting). Righteousness forevermore is consistent with Jeremiah 23:5-6 (ESV) “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’"

    Physical and spiritual Father of Jesus is God. The son will be called Mighty God, Everlasting Father that is consistent with Jesus (The Word) and The Father (The Will) being One Eternal God. Over 1,000 years before birth of Jesus, David described One God's plan for today relationship of God The Father and God The Son in Psalm 2 "today I have begotten you" that uses past tense verb (perfect aspect) to describe One God's plan of Holy conception inside Mary so a portion (The Word) of One God's invisible, eternal spirit inhabited human body of the Man Jesus (literally consistent with Matthew 1:18ffLuke 1:35ff, and John 1:1-18 so Jesus is both eternal God and Human). Hence the Son over God's house is God (Hebrews 3).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Faith belief idea "And neither God's servant nor God's son are God Himself." is asserted as a fact (while being partially true according to Scripture).

    It is not just partially true but completely true according to Scripture, as the record in Heb to which you yourself referred shows clearly ... there are THREE (not just TWO) in view => (1) God, (2) the man Moses as servant, (3) the man Jesus as son of God.

    Human father and son always have a time relationship where the father is physically older than the son (takes years of human body growth before reproductive organs are functional).

    A father is always older and always lives prior to his son ... a simple plain truth. In Hebrews, the two human beings Moses and Jesus are are compared and the differences between them are pointed out. While both are HUMANS, the one had the status of servant of God, the other had the status of son of God.

    It is YOUR "faith belief idea" that a servant and a son are different kind of being ... Is the term "God" now a word for a "kind / genus" in your faith belief ideas?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    a portion (The Word) of One God's invisible, eternal spirit inhabited human body of the Man Jesus (literally consistent with Matthew 1:18ffLuke 1:35ff, and John 1:1-18 so Jesus is both eternal God and Human).

    YOUR faith-belief conclusion (Jesus is both eternal God and Human) is not what those mentioned passages of Scripture say or teach. It is actually a belief that flat out contradicts the Biblical truth that God is not a human, just as a human is not God

    Hence the Son over God's house is God (Hebrews 3)

    This is just another belief based on the above wrong conclusion ... Heb 3 does not state or teach that the son over God's house is God.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Faith belief idea "And neither God's servant nor God's son are God Himself." is asserted as a fact (while being partially true according to Scripture).

    As concepts, what's the difference between what you call Wolfgang's "faith belief idea" (in his case, about God's servant and son) and what you report "[your] faith believes" (in your case, about one God having "plural aspect in voices")? A faith belief idea and what one's faith believes sound synonymous to me. Are they?

    My point is that we ALL have ideas/beliefs/convictions about Jesus and God that are related to our faith. The relevant question is what is the basis for those beliefs? I hope we all claim ours are rooted in Scripture. I do. It's obvious Wolfgang does. I assume you do. The central issue in our exchanges is not whether each of us has faith beliefs, but rather whether we agree each other's faith beliefs are rooted in Scripture.

    • I don't find and I don't believe you have shown Scriptural support for your "ComnUnity of Love" or "plural aspect in voices" beliefs. I'm sure you believe you HAVE shown such support. We disagree.
    • I believe I have shown via dozens of texts the Scriptural foundation for my faith beliefs as to whether Jesus is God. I'm sure you believe I haven't shown such a foundation. Again we disagree.

    Your continuing reliance on claims of our having "faith beliefs" is in my view a distraction from the core issue: Do our faith beliefs - which we ALL have - align with the message of Scripture?

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus a portion (The Word) of One God's invisible, eternal spirit inhabited human body of the Man Jesus (literally consistent with Matthew 1:18ffLuke 1:35ff, and John 1:1-18 so Jesus is both eternal God and Human).

    @Wolfgang YOUR faith-belief conclusion (Jesus is both eternal God and Human) is not what those mentioned passages of Scripture say or teach. It is actually a belief that flat out contradicts the Biblical truth that God is not a human, just as a human is not God

    Who is the physical father of Jesus ? Your March 15 reply to this question was:

    @Wolfgang According to records in Mt 1:18ff and Lk 1:35ff, God caused by His miraculous working via His holy spirit power the conception prior to Mary and Joseph having come together in marriage.

    Physical father of a human includes spirit of life portion. All descendants of Adam receive from human father (via sperm): a portion of God's breath of life into Adam along with sin stained nature so male & female are born unholy & innocent (as described in Psalms 14, which is quoted in Romans 3). The man Jesus conceived inside Mary was Holy (without sin) so the physical "Father" of Jesus is the one eternal Holy God with Jesus having a portion (The Word) of Holy God's eternal Spirit being in human flesh => Jesus is both eternal God and human. Greek grammar of John 1:1 simply states All of The Word was being eternal God while eternal God was being more than The Word. John 1:14 The Word became flesh (Jesus)

    Genesis 3:15 prophecy includes seed (singular) of the woman so Mary being the human mother of Jesus fulfills Genesis 3:15 prophecy. Also fulfills Isaiah 9:6-7 that includes: a child born, ... son, ... shall be called ... Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Adam was created so humanly impossible for a descendant of Adam to be the physical father of a son who is Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Eternal God conceived the Holy child inside Mary.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Faith belief idea "And neither God's servant nor God's son are God Himself." is asserted as a fact (while being partially true according to Scripture).

    @Bill_Coley As concepts, what's the difference between what you call Wolfgang's "faith belief idea" (in his case, about God's servant and son) and what you report "[your] faith believes" (in your case, about one God having "plural aspect in voices")? A faith belief idea and what one's faith believes sound synonymous to me. Are they?

    Greek <Root = lbs/el/πιστευω> range of meaning includes English translations: faith, faithful, believe, belief, disbeliever, unbelieving, trust, ...

    @Bill_Coley My point is that we ALL have ideas/beliefs/convictions about Jesus and God that are related to our faith. The relevant question is what is the basis for those beliefs? I hope we all claim ours are rooted in Scripture. I do. It's obvious Wolfgang does. I assume you do. The central issue in our exchanges is not whether each of us has faith beliefs, but rather whether we agree each other's faith beliefs are rooted in Scripture.

    Your "I assume you do" idea reflects the rest of my March 21 response being unbelievably false according to your faith belief (if you had believed my earlier responses, then you would acknowledged my faith believes ALL scripture is True). While God is always True & Loving, our human agreement about faith beliefs being rooted in Scripture is impossible (as is you expressing my Scriptural faith belief in a way that I would agree). Your prediction that we would not agree about the nature of God is thus far proving correct.

    Matthew 7:15-20 (NLT) “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. 

    If CD public replies can be used for identifying people by their actions, then a number of CD posters lack depth of God's Love for themselves and others: idea of expressing hate toward other humans on earth expresses hate toward people God Loves. God does not like our sin choices.

    @Bill_Coley I don't find and I don't believe you have shown Scriptural support for your "ComnUnity of Love" or "plural aspect in voices" beliefs. I'm sure you believe you HAVE shown such support. We disagree.

    Circular reasoning still applies from faith belief "facts" preventing Scripture insight ("I don't believe" results in "I don't find" Scripture support). An example is you being unconvinced that Jesus received worship as Lord God in spite of John 20:28 expression by Thomas: "My Lord and My God !"

    @Bill_Coley I believe I have shown via dozens of texts the Scriptural foundation for my faith beliefs as to whether Jesus is God. I'm sure you believe I haven't shown such a foundation. Again we disagree.

    What appears to you as "foundation" ideas has appearance to me as collection of doubts about who Jesus truly is. We agree the man Jesus had a human body while disagreeing about the nature of invisible spirit inside that body. My faith believes a portion of One God's Spirit (The Word) was inside the human body of Jesus, which made Jesus Holy (different from all other humans who inherit from human father: sin nature along with portion of God's breath of life into Adam). Matthew 17 transfiguration into Holy Light visibly showed Jesus is both eternal God and human.

    @Bill_Coley Your continuing reliance on claims of our having "faith beliefs" is in my view a distraction from the core issue: Do our faith beliefs - which we ALL have - align with the message of Scripture?

    Matthew 7:13-14 (NLT) “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it. 

    Revelation 3:14-22 message to the Church in Laodiciea includes Jesus lovingly knocking at the door of our hearts plus desiring to share a meal together, which would probably include some questions that are part of George C. Ritchie's story in "Return from Tomorrow" (highly recommend reading book for context of questions, which are consistent with Matthew 7:21-23)

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Physical father of a human includes spirit of life portion. All descendants of Adam receive from human father (via sperm): a portion of God's breath of life into Adam along with sin stained nature so male & female are born unholy & innocent (as described in Psalms 14, which is quoted in Romans 3).

    The breath of life is NOT what causes the conception, is it?

    Consider the Biblical truths and facts ==> A woman conceives offspring in accordance with God's law established for procreation "everything according to its own kind". In order for a woman to conceive and have a baby, there must be a male sperm and a female ovum both of the kind HUMAN. There can not and will not be any conception with male and female sperm and ovum from different kinds (such as human + cat, horse + human, etc). There can not and will not be a conception with only male sperm(s) or only female sperm(s).

    Do you agree with the Biblical record that the woman Mary conceived ? Do you agree with the biblical record that Mary gave birth to a son ?

    The man Jesus conceived inside Mary was Holy (without sin) so the physical "Father" of Jesus is the one eternal Holy God with Jesus having a portion (The Word) of Holy God's eternal Spirit being in human flesh => Jesus is both eternal God and human.

    The man Jesus was conceived inside Mary because male sperm and female ovum united and a pregnancy started which 9 months later was fulfilled when the baby was born.

    The Biblical records in Mat 1:18ff and Lk 1:35ff describe how Mary CONCEIVED and became pregnant with Jesus. According to these records, the miraculous element in the conception is that the male sperm of the kind HUMAN (else she could not have conceived) was provided not by means of sexual intercourse with her husband but by God's working via His holy spirit power.

    By the way, do you realize that according to your argumentation above ("the man Jesus... was Holy [without sin] ...=>Jesus is both eternal God and human"), Adam -- who was without sin and thus holy when God made formed and created him -- was also God and human ?!?!!! Thus, you have this God-man Adam committing sin ...

    I would conclude that your faith belief is not in harmony with Scripture.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Circular reasoning still applies from faith belief "facts" preventing Scripture insight ("I don't believe" results in "I don't find" Scripture support). An example is you being unconvinced that Jesus received worship as Lord God in spite of John 20:28 expression by Thomas: "My Lord and My God !"

    One needs no circular reasoning ... careful reading of what is actually written would reveal that there is nothing about "worship as Lord God" in the section in Joh 20, and the recorded words Thomas exclaimed in the situation do NOT say anything about Thomas worshiping Jesus as Lord God either.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Also fulfills Isaiah 9:6-7 that includes: a child born, ... son, ... shall be called ... Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Adam was created so humanly impossible for a descendant of Adam to be the physical father of a son who is Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Eternal God conceived the Holy child inside Mary.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, instead of smiling, you would benefit from more carefully reading what is actually written when you look up verses ... Isa 9:6-7 has "shall be called" which is NOT the same as "shall be". Perhaps you did read carefully and really noticed the "shall be called", are you of the faith belief opinion that "shall be called" is the same as "shall be" ??

    I am called "Wolfgang" and also "Schneider" .... but I am NOT someone going after wolves "Wolf-gang", nor am I a tailor ("Schneider").

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Greek <Root = lbs/el/πιστευω> range of meaning includes English translations: faith, faithful, believe, belief, disbeliever, unbelieving, trust, ...

    This response doesn't tell me whether what you call Wolfgang's "faith belief idea" (in his case, about God's servant and son) and what you report "your] faith believes" (in your case, about one God having "plural aspect in voices") are synonymous. Are they?


    Your "I assume you do" idea reflects the rest of my March 21 response being unbelievably false according to your faith belief (if you had believed my earlier responses, then you would acknowledged my faith believes ALL scripture is True). While God is always True & Loving, our human agreement about faith beliefs being rooted in Scripture is impossible (as is you expressing my Scriptural faith belief in a way that I would agree). Your prediction that we would not agree about the nature of God is thus far proving correct.

    I don't know what you mean here. How is what you claim to be the "unbelievabl[e] false[hood]" of your March 21 response to Wolfgang in any way connected to my assumption that you believe your faith claims are rooted in Scripture? You SEEM to be saying I'm right to assume you believe your faith claims are rooted in Scripture; is that what you're saying?


    Circular reasoning still applies from faith belief "facts" preventing Scripture insight ("I don't believe" results in "I don't find" Scripture support). An example is you being unconvinced that Jesus received worship as Lord God in spite of John 20:28 expression by Thomas: "My Lord and My God !"

    No. As I have told you on multiple occasions, when I conclude that a claim is not supported by Scripture, I do so because FIRST I have examined Scripture to discern whether said claim is supported there. If after my examination of Scripture I conclude the claim IS supported, I choose to believe that the claim is supported by Scripture. If, on the other hand, after my examination of Scripture I conclude the claim is NOT supported, I choose to believe the claim is not supported by Scripture. THAT IS: Examination of Scripture comes first, THEN - and only then - comes the decision as to what I believe.


    What appears to you as "foundation" ideas has appearance to me as collection of doubts about who Jesus truly is. We agree the man Jesus had a human body while disagreeing about the nature of invisible spirit inside that body. My faith believes a portion of One God's Spirit (The Word) was inside the human body of Jesus, which made Jesus Holy (different from all other humans who inherit from human father: sin nature along with portion of God's breath of life into Adam). Matthew 17 transfiguration into Holy Light visibly showed Jesus is both eternal God and human.

    As I said, we disagree.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, you claim that Jesus is "the Lord (Gd)" or "Lord God" ... on what Scriptures do you base such a faith belief?

    I can read of Jesus being referred to as "Lord" by the various inspired writers of NT scriptures, but have not read even one verse where the the God-inspired gospel writer referred to Jesus as "God".

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    To have a bit more exchange on biblical topic and biblical matters ... In Joh 4:24 we can read the following recorded words of Jesus :

    Joh 4,24 (AV)

    God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

    According to Messiah Jesus, whoever or whatever is the true God ? Is the true God "flesh and blood (a human being)"? Is the true God "Spirit (a Spirit being)"? Is the true God an individual singular Being or a group/team of plural Beings? What did Jesus declare?

  • @Wolfgang Do you agree with the Biblical record that the woman Mary conceived ? Do you agree with the biblical record that Mary gave birth to a son ?

    Yes. Prayerfully pondering words & mysteries of God is worthwhile. God designed reproduction, which includes male sperm and female ovum in humans. Personally do not know if God created a male sperm inside Mary's womb OR if God selected/fertilized an ovum inside Mary to complete conception of human child as described in Mathew 1:18ff and Luke 1:35ff. Holy child is consistent with John 1:1-18 where The Word was eternally being God (while God was being more than The Word), which became flesh. Due to Adam's sin, all human fathers give their children a portion of God's Life that is sin tainted (Psalms 14 & Romans 3) => unholy child (needs to be born spiritually for intimate relationship in God - John 3).

    @Wolfgang By the way, do you realize that according to your argumentation above ("the man Jesus... was Holy [without sin] ...=>Jesus is both eternal God and human"), Adam -- who was without sin and thus holy when God made formed and created him -- was also God and human ?!?!!! Thus, you have this God-man Adam committing sin ...

    Noticed your quote of my March 24 reply has "..." that leaves out important context about invisible Spirit inside Jesus being a portion of Holy God

    Physical father of a human includes spirit of life portion. All descendants of Adam receive from human father (via sperm): a portion of God's breath of life into Adam along with sin stained nature so male & female are born unholy & innocent (as described in Psalms 14, which is quoted in Romans 3). The man Jesus conceived inside Mary was Holy (without sin) so the physical "Father" of Jesus is the one eternal Holy God with Jesus having a portion (The Word) of Holy God's eternal Spirit being in human flesh => Jesus is both eternal God and human. Greek grammar of John 1:1 simply states All of The Word was being eternal God while eternal God was being more than The Word. John 1:14 The Word became flesh (Jesus)

    Wonder if your "..." quoting represents what is unbelievable to your faith belief ? (results in faulty conclusion about my harmony with Scripture)

    Holy God breathed life into dust to create Adam in the image of God with free will to choose what to love most. While Adam was Holy (sinless), he enjoyed daily walks with God & Eve. When Adam & Eve chose to sin (by disobeying God), they died spiritually (with physical death years later). Humans looking like God (reflecting God's image) does not make humans into God, except the man Jesus who had a portion of the invisible God's Holy Being (The Word) inside Holy human body so Jesus is both eternal God and human. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    @Wolfgang The Biblical records in Mat 1:18ff and Lk 1:35ff describe how Mary CONCEIVED and became pregnant with Jesus. According to these records, the miraculous element in the conception is that the male sperm of the kind HUMAN (else she could not have conceived) was provided not by means of sexual intercourse with her husband but by God's working via His holy spirit power.

    Concur God's Holy power was intelligently directed to create a male sperm (out of nothing) inside Mary's womb OR intelligently selected/fertilized one ovum inside Mary. We disagree whether God's Holy power has its own intelligent voice (while being One in Spirit, Heart, Soul, Strength, ...).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Circular reasoning still applies from faith belief "facts" preventing Scripture insight ("I don't believe" results in "I don't find" Scripture support). An example is you being unconvinced that Jesus received worship as Lord God in spite of John 20:28 expression by Thomas: "My Lord and My God !"

    @Wolfgang One needs no circular reasoning ... careful reading of what is actually written would reveal that there is nothing about "worship as Lord God" in the section in Joh 20, and the recorded words Thomas exclaimed in the situation do NOT say anything about Thomas worshiping Jesus as Lord God either.

    @Bill_Coley No. As I have told you on multiple occasions, when I conclude that a claim is not supported by Scripture, I do so because FIRST I have examined Scripture to discern whether said claim is supported there. If after my examination of Scripture I conclude the claim IS supported, I choose to believe that the claim is supported by Scripture. If, on the other hand, after my examination of Scripture I conclude the claim is NOT supported, I choose to believe the claim is not supported by Scripture. THAT IS: Examination of Scripture comes first, THEN - and only then - comes the decision as to what I believe.

    Circular reasoning confirmed by Faith Belief careful examination (with self deception as careful examination lacks prayer for God to open eyes per Psalm 119:18 to behold wonders in God's instructions/teachings). Human careful examination of Scripture without God's spiritual help is faulty.

    To me, doubting does not describe Thomas well. Matthew 26:31-35 documents all disciples vowing not to deny Jesus, even if it meant dying with Jesus. However, words spoken by Jesus proved to be true (as prophesied, the disciples scattered like sheep when shepherd was struck). Grief of denial is incredibly intense (e.g. Judas Iscarot's suicide). Scripture records Peter weeping bitterly after denying Jesus (while all disciples had reason to weep for failing to fulfill their vow to Jesus - every disciple had experienced God's Holy power doing miracles around & thru them). Humanly challenging to imagine motivation for Thomas saying: "Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25). In effect, Thomas continued to deny Jesus (possibly from Thomas feeling guilty/shame about not keeping vow to die with Jesus) after Thomas heard from other disciples and witnesses that Jesus has risen: Jesus is Alive! Noticed God waited eight days before Jesus physically appeared to Thomas (Jesus knew when heart of Thomas was willing to stop denying and believe in Jesus as Lord God). As Thomas touched the physical scars in the human body of the resurrected Jesus, can you imagine his internal transformation from denial to Joyful belief & worship that is expressed as: "My Lord and My God !" Foxe's Book of Martyrs includes:

    XIII. St. Thomas

    He was called by this name in Syriac, but Didymus in Greek; he was an apostle and martyr, and preached in Parthia and India, where displeasing the pagan priests, he was martyred by being thrust through with a spear. His death is commemorated on the 21st of December.

    John Foxe, Foxe’s Book of Martyrs (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2000).

    Worship of Jesus is in Philippians 2:5-11 (AV) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    If identifying as a Christian (Acts 11:26 not worshipping local gods) meant denying Jesus is Lord God OR choosing way to die: 1) Crucifixion (like Jesus), 2) Mauled by wild animals, 3) Put into a pot of boiling oil, 4) Burned on a stake => would you choose to deny Jesus is Lord God OR to die ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Also fulfills Isaiah 9:6-7 that includes: a child born, ... son, ... shall be called ... Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Adam was created so humanly impossible for a descendant of Adam to be the physical father of a son who is Mighty God, Everlasting Father. Eternal God conceived the Holy child inside Mary.

    @Wolfgang @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, instead of smiling, you would benefit from more carefully reading what is actually written when you look up verses ... Isa 9:6-7 has "shall be called" which is NOT the same as "shall be". Perhaps you did read carefully and really noticed the "shall be called", are you of the faith belief opinion that "shall be called" is the same as "shall be" ??

    I am called "Wolfgang" and also "Schneider" .... but I am NOT someone going after wolves "Wolf-gang", nor am I a tailor ("Schneider").

    LXX has καὶ καλεῖται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ (and "be called" the name his) where καλεῖται is καλέω verb, present, either middle or passive, indicative, third person, singular. The subject of this phrase (nominative) is τὸ ὄνομα (the name). What word(s) are used to describe (call) Jesus ? (especially by those who believe Jesus is Lord God so experience God's Holy power in Jesus - applies to me). In contrast those who do not believe Jesus is Lord God have limited (or not at all) experience of God's Holy power in Jesus (so lack of experience caused by unbelief causes disbelief of Isaiah 9:6 names about Jesus). Middle possibility of καλεῖται for Mighty God & Everlasting Father is John 10:30 (AV) I and my Father are one. (so Jesus thinking about being a portion of God's Holy being in a human body affected actions by Jesus to do God's Will, which in turn affected thoughts ...)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Greek <Root = lbs/el/πιστευω> range of meaning includes English translations: faith, faithful, believe, belief, disbeliever, unbelieving, trust, ...

    @Bill_Coley This response doesn't tell me whether what you call Wolfgang's "faith belief idea" (in his case, about God's servant and son) and what you report "your] faith believes" (in your case, about one God having "plural aspect in voices") are synonymous. Are they?

    Synonymous (identical/interchangeable) = No. My faith believes Jesus is Lord God (eternally unified in One God) while Wolfgang believes the Man Jesus is distinct from One God. Hence our reading of Hebrews 3:1-6a is different. Wolfgang reads out THREE: God, Moses, the Man Jesus as son of God. My prayerful reading recognizes two: Moses (human servant) & God (the son Jesus is God's Priestly King of Righteousness over God's house).

    @Wolfgang @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, you claim that Jesus is "the Lord (Gd)" or "Lord God" ... on what Scriptures do you base such a faith belief?

    I can read of Jesus being referred to as "Lord" by the various inspired writers of NT scriptures, but have not read even one verse where the the God-inspired gospel writer referred to Jesus as "God".

    Matthew 1:18-25 records Immanuel, "God with us" prophecy by Isaiah being fulfilled in Jesus. Matthew describes numerous people experiencing God with us by the miraculous works done along with words spoken by Jesus about who Jesus is.

    Matthew wrote down a prayer by Jesus in Matthew 11:25-27 (AV) At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

    God the Father is eternal. If the invisible spirit inside Jesus is not an eternal portion of One God (The Word), then claim "neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son" would be a lie (a created being cannot know an eternal God before time of creation), which is sin and would disqualify Jesus from being Holy substitute sacrifice for any human sin. If invisible spirit inside Jesus is an eternal portion of One God (The Word), then believing the MAN Jesus is distinct from One God robs an individual of truly knowing One God (John 10:10).

    Who can forgive sins against God ? (per Mark 2:1-12)

    Please remember Jewish convention of reading Gd's Holy Name (YHVH) as Adonai (LORD) when reading announcement from Gd's messengers to Jewish shepherds in Luke 2:11 (AV) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    John 1:1-18 includes The Word eternally being God who was made flesh (Jesus) to dwell among us (humans).

    @Wolfgang To have a bit more exchange on biblical topic and biblical matters ... In Joh 4:24 we can read the following recorded words of Jesus :

    Joh 4,24 (AV) God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

    @Wolfgang According to Messiah Jesus, whoever or whatever is the true God ? Is the true God "flesh and blood (a human being)"? Is the true God "Spirit (a Spirit being)"? Is the true God an individual singular Being or a group/team of plural Beings? What did Jesus declare?

    Spirit does not have human body (being) boundaries. After human body dies, human soul/spirit goes to the place that the human chose by their actions: Heaven for those who did God's Will (bearing good fruit) OR Hell for those who produced bad fruit (do not know Jesus) Matthew 7:15-29

    Deuteronomy 6.4 (AV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord

    John 10.30 (AV) I and my Father are one.

    Keep Smiling 😊

Sign In or Register to comment.