A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity

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  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Circular reasoning confirmed by Faith Belief careful examination (with self deception as careful examination lacks prayer for God to open eyes per Psalm 119:18 to behold wonders in God's instructions/teachings). Human careful examination of Scripture without God's spiritual help is faulty.

    As I reported in my previous post, and as I have told you more than a half dozen times during our exchanges, my faith belief comes AFTER my examination of Scripture. Hence, if I conclude that the Bible doesn't say Jesus was God, it's because my examination of Scripture yielded the conclusion that the Bible doesn't say Jesus is God. If the Bible doesn't say Jesus is God, no amount of prayer or "spiritual help" is going change that fact. In my view, the Bible doesn't say Jesus is God. I have prayed. I have received God's spiritual help in measure wholly undeserved over the decades. The conclusion hasn't changed.

    In response to the fact that you have reached a different conclusion on the question of whether Jesus was God, instead of accusing you of "self-deception," "circular reasoning," or failing to pray or receive God's help, I will simply say you and I disagree.


    Noticed God waited eight days before Jesus physically appeared to Thomas (Jesus knew when heart of Thomas was willing to stop denying and believe in Jesus as Lord God). As Thomas touched the physical scars in the human body of the resurrected Jesus, can you imagine his internal transformation from denial to Joyful belief & worship that is expressed as: "My Lord and My God !"

    Where in the text of John 20.26-29 do you find support for your assertion that "Thomas touched the physical scars in the human body of the resurrected Jesus"? In my view, the text does NOT say Thomas actually touched Jesus - notice in John 10.29, Jesus tells Thomas he believes because he has seen him, NOT because he has touched him - which in my view makes Thomas' confession all the more powerful.


    Synonymous (identical/interchangeable) = No. My faith believes Jesus is Lord God (eternally unified in One God) while Wolfgang believes the Man Jesus is distinct from One God. Hence our reading of Hebrews 3:1-6a is different. Wolfgang reads out THREE: God, Moses, the Man Jesus as son of God. My prayerful reading recognizes two: Moses (human servant) & God (the son Jesus is God's Priestly King of Righteousness over God's house).

    Another miscommunication.

    I did not ask whether you and Wolfgang were saying the same "identical/interchangeable" thing. It's obvious that your opinions differ greatly. I asked whether as concepts, what you call his "faith belief" is synonymous - i.e. the same kind of thing as - what you say your "faith believes." I realize the content of your respective beliefs differ. I'm not asking about the content. I'm asking about the concepts.

    Put another way, were you to refer to "what Wolfgang's faith believes" and your "faith belief," would you making the same basic comparison as when you compare Wolfgang's faith belief and what your faith believes? (granting that the content of each of those would be different!)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689
    edited March 28

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Holy God breathed life into dust to create Adam in the image of God with free will to choose what to love most. While Adam was Holy (sinless), he enjoyed daily walks with God & Eve.

    According to your stated idea that Jesus as direct descendant of God (by means of miraculous conception in Mary) being Holy and without sin was God, your argument then makes Adam (& Eve) as direct descendant of God (by means of miraculous making and creation) to also be God while they were Holy and without sin.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus When Adam & Eve chose to sin (by disobeying God), they died spiritually (with physical death years later).

    Thus, your argument has God Adam & Eve commit sin and die spiritually and later physically

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Humans looking like God (reflecting God's image) does not make humans into God,

    Who says that God's image is sort of like a human person's physical body ... which is what you claim with your "humans looking like God (reflecting God's image" ?!?

    If what was the case for Adam was not the case for Jesus, then Jesus was actually not a man, a human being.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus except the man Jesus who had a portion of the invisible God's Holy Being (The Word) inside Holy human body so Jesus is both eternal God and human. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    See above ... which makes your last statement here your faith belief, but your faith belief shows itself to be a misinterpretation of what Scripture states about God, about Adam, and about Jesus.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Concur God's Holy power was intelligently directed to create a male sperm (out of nothing) inside Mary's womb OR intelligently selected/fertilized one ovum inside Mary.

    God's holy power did not create God by means of conception in Mary, because a conception can only take place, is only possible, if the ovum of the kind human is fertilized via a male component of the kind human. What was conceived in Mary was a human being, as is evident when she gave birth not to God but a human being, a baby boy.

    We disagree whether God's Holy power has its own intelligent voice (while being One in Spirit, Heart, Soul, Strength, ...).

    This talk of God and intelligent voices, etc. is something you believe as part of your faith belief ... it is also not found in Scripture.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Holy God breathed life into dust to create Adam in the image of God with free will to choose what to love most. While Adam was Holy (sinless), he enjoyed daily walks with God & Eve.

    @Wolfgang According to your stated idea that Jesus as direct descendant of God (by means of miraculous conception in Mary) being Holy and without sin was God, your argument then makes Adam (& Eve) as direct descendant of God (by means of miraculous making and creation) to also be God while they were Holy and without sin.

    Missing from "stated idea" summary is internal spiritual distinction between Adam & Jesus. Holy God breathed Life into dust to create the man Adam in the image of God (Genesis 1:26) with free will to choose what to love most by having a Holy spiritual portion of Life (=> human, not God). In contrast, the man Jesus conceived inside Mary was Holy (without sin) so physical "Father" of Jesus is the one eternal Holy God with Jesus having a portion (The Word) of Holy God's eternal Spirit being in human flesh => Jesus is both eternal God and human. Greek grammar of John 1:1 simply states All of The Word was being eternal God while eternal God was being more than The Word. John 1:14 The Word became flesh (Jesus).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus When Adam & Eve chose to sin (by disobeying God), they died spiritually (with physical death years later).

    @Wolfgang Thus, your argument has God Adam & Eve commit sin and die spiritually and later physically

    Our spiritually dead great-(...)-grand-father is Adam as we inherited sin stained spiritual portion of life from Adam (thru our human fathers).

    Romans 5:12-21 (AV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Did Holy God sin by creating/fashioning Adam & Eve in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27) while knowing Adam & Eve would disobey God = sin ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Noticed God waited eight days before Jesus physically appeared to Thomas (Jesus knew when heart of Thomas was willing to stop denying and believe in Jesus as Lord God). As Thomas touched the physical scars in the human body of the resurrected Jesus, can you imagine his internal transformation from denial to Joyful belief & worship that is expressed as: "My Lord and My God !"

    @Bill_Coley Where in the text of John 20.26-29 do you find support for your assertion that "Thomas touched the physical scars in the human body of the resurrected Jesus"? In my view, the text does NOT say Thomas actually touched Jesus - notice in John 10.29, Jesus tells Thomas he believes because he has seen him, NOT because he has touched him - which in my view makes Thomas' confession all the more powerful.

    I do not want to imagine myself being in the intense Loving presence of Lord God and choosing to disobey His commands: e.g. John 20:27 commands (imperatives) by Jesus to touch & see what Thomas had said in John 20:25 (because my disobedience would give a Holy Righteous God swift reason to send me to the place prepared for our spiritual adversary, who choose to sin after being beautifully created - Isaiah 14:12-17).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689
    edited March 29

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Missing from "stated idea" summary is internal spiritual distinction between Adam & Jesus.

    There is NO internal spiritual distinction between Adam and Jesus as direct descendant from God. The distinction is in the manner in which Adam and Jesus "started out": (a) Adam was formed, made and created by God's creative doing, (b) Jesus was conceived in a woman by God's miraculous creative doing. The result of God's doing was in each case a SINLESS HOLY human being ... One should note that with Jesus God followed His own established laws of procreation for humans via conception and birth, thus no creation process from dust as in the case of Adam.

    Holy God breathed Life into dust to create the man Adam in the image of God (Genesis 1:26) with free will to choose what to love most by having a Holy spiritual portion of Life (=> human, not God).

    Adam was HOLY and WITHOUT SIN when God formed, made and created him.

    In contrast, the man Jesus conceived inside Mary was Holy (without sin) so physical "Father" of Jesus is the one eternal Holy God

    There is nothing about "in contrast" concerning HOLY (WITHOUT SIN) between Adam and Jesus ... Just as Adam was holy and without sin, so was Jesus holy and without sin. There are no two kinds of "holy", are there? There are no two kinds of "without sin", are there?

    with Jesus having a portion (The Word) of Holy God's eternal Spirit being in human flesh => Jesus is both eternal God and human.

    This is your own faith belief idea but NOT what God-inspired Scripture teaches ! Scripture clearly states in the various gospel records that God's holy spirit came and rested upon Jesus when he was about 30 years of age (cp. e.g. Mat 3:16, Acts 10:38)

    Greek grammar of John 1:1 simply states All of The Word was being eternal God while eternal God was being more than The Word. John 1:14 The Word became flesh (Jesus).

    No, Greek grammar is about grammar not about content of a statement. And just because some Trinity belief adhering Greek scholar suggests that a certain rule would allow a certain theological interpretation of the statement "and God was the Word", does NOT of necessity mean that such rule even really applies in this case and context. If I said "and Mozart was the music" in Greek, I would be using the same Greek grammar, does that make "all of the music" was being "Mozart"? Of course note ... it just says that the particular music was in some way related to Mozart, and the context would indicate what that relation was, e.g. was composed by, was played by, was conducted by, etc.

    John 1:1 states that the word in view was not man's word (not a man's idea, plan, word), but it was what God had in mind, had declared. John 1:1 does NOT say that this word was the eternal God or a portion of the eternal God .... just as the music in the above illustration for the grammar situation with such a statement was not the composer Mozart nor a certain part the person Mozart.

    John 1:14 states that God's word (what God had in mind and in His foreknowledge and had declared as word) became reality (cp. 1Pe 1:20) in that this human person, whom God had in mind to be man's redeemer and Messiah, was conceived and then born.

    Simple, isn't it? Truth is simple ...

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    Did Holy God sin by creating/fashioning Adam & Eve in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27) while knowing Adam & Eve would disobey God = sin ?

    You claimed that Jesus was God because he was HOLY and WITHOUT SIN. You also acknowledged that Adam was created HOLY and WITHOUT SIN. According to your idea then, because Adam was created HOLY and WITHOUT SIN, Adam also was God. Your idea however causes a problem, in that when Adam (who according to your claims would have been God) later sinned, that Adam-God would have sinned ... Thus, your claims are showing themselves to be quite obviously incorrect.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    I do not want to imagine myself being in the intense Loving presence of Lord God and choosing to disobey His commands: e.g. John 20:27 commands (imperatives) by Jesus to touch & see what Thomas had said in John 20:25 (because my disobedience would give a Holy Righteous God swift reason to send me to the place prepared for our spiritual adversary, who choose to sin after being beautifully created - Isaiah 14:12-17).

    In my previous post I asked where in the text of John 20.26-29 you found support for your claim that Thomas physically touched the resurrected body of Jesus. In response, you told me why, out of fear of the possible consequences of not doing so, you would have complied with Jesus' instruction had you been in Thomas' place, but you didn't tell me where in the Johannine text you find support for your claim that Thomas complied. So again I ask: Where in the text of John 20.26-29 do you find support for your assertion that "Thomas touched the physical scars in the human body of the resurrected Jesus"?

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Missing from "stated idea" summary is internal spiritual distinction between Adam & Jesus.

    @Wolfgang There is NO internal spiritual distinction between Adam and Jesus as direct descendant from God. The distinction is in the manner in which Adam and Jesus "started out": (a) Adam was formed, made and created by God's creative doing, (b) Jesus was conceived in a woman by God's miraculous creative doing. The result of God's doing was in each case a SINLESS HOLY human being ... One should note that with Jesus God followed His own established laws of procreation for humans via conception and birth, thus no creation process from dust as in the case of Adam.

    Why did Adam choose to sin (Genesis 3) by disobeying God while Jesus did not sin (chose to remain/be Holy) ? Our spiritual adversary only needed one question "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" for Adam & Eve (our ancestors) to choose disobedience (sin).

    John 3:16 includes μονογενής = "one and only", "only begotten" so Scripture shows Jesus is different than Adam and human father descendants.

    Faith belief idea "There is NO internal spiritual distinction between Adam and Jesus ..." was stated without any supporting Scripture.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Holy God breathed Life into dust to create the man Adam in the image of God (Genesis 1:26) with free will to choose what to love most by having a Holy spiritual portion of Life (=> human, not God).

    @Wolfgang Adam was HOLY and WITHOUT SIN when God formed, made and created him.

    Concur. Thankful can see image of God in every human. You're Special. God Loves You. Does God like our sin ? No. God Loves Us 😍

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In contrast, the man Jesus conceived inside Mary was Holy (without sin) so physical "Father" of Jesus is the one eternal Holy God

    @Wolfgang There is nothing about "in contrast" concerning HOLY (WITHOUT SIN) between Adam and Jesus ... Just as Adam was holy and without sin, so was Jesus holy and without sin. There are no two kinds of "holy", are there? There are no two kinds of "without sin", are there?

    Concur about one kind of Holy and "without sin", but Adam was human (not God) while Jesus is both human & eternal God (The Word)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus with Jesus having a portion (The Word) of Holy God's eternal Spirit being in human flesh => Jesus is both eternal God and human.

    @Wolfgang This is your own faith belief idea but NOT what God-inspired Scripture teaches ! Scripture clearly states in the various gospel records that God's holy spirit came and rested upon Jesus when he was about 30 years of age (cp. e.g. Mat 3:16Acts 10:38)

    Road to Emmaus includes he (Jesus) in Luke 24:25-27 (AV) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Jesus speaking in John 5:39 (AV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    What do Old Testament/Covenant (Tanakh) Scriptures testify about Jesus ? e.g. Proverbs 30:4 (AV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    How can The Lord (YHVH) be pierced by humans in Jerusalem ? Saith The LORD in Zechariah 12:10 (AV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplications: And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Greek grammar of John 1:1 simply states All of The Word was being eternal God while eternal God was being more than The Word. John 1:14 The Word became flesh (Jesus).

    @Wolfgang No, Greek grammar is about grammar not about content of a statement. 

    Greek grammar about the verb εἰμί (to be) and definite articles (the) states when two nouns connected by εἰμί have definite article (the) then the two nouns are identical/interchangeable. When one noun has definite article (the) connected by εἰμί to another noun not having article (anathrous), then anathrous noun qualifies the definite noun. In the John 1:1c phrase: "and God was The Word" θεός (God) does not have the definite article (anathrous) so qualifes The Word. The verb ἦν is imperfect (continuous action in past time), active, indicative, third person, singular, which can be translated "was" or "was being". Hence, The Word was being God (in beginning => eternal) according to Scripture. LXX in Genesis 1:1 begins with Ἐν ἀρχῇ (In the beginning), which is the same as the Gospel of John. God creating is consistent with Psalm 33:6 (AV) By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; And all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

    @Wolfgang If I said "and Mozart was the music" in Greek, I would be using the same Greek grammar, does that make "all of the music" was being "Mozart"?

    Analogy fails due to music existing before Mozart so the quality of all music could not be Mozart. All of The Word was being God in the beginning.

    @Wolfgang Of course note ... it just says that the particular music was in some way related to Mozart, and the context would indicate what that relation was, e.g. was composed by, was played by, was conducted by, etc.

    Concur 1787 debut of "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" in concert could include "and Mozart was the music" description for composition, playing, ...

    @Wolfgang John 1:1 states that the word in view was not man's word (not a man's idea, plan, word), but it was what God had in mind, had declared. John 1:1 does NOT say that this word was the eternal God or a portion of the eternal God ... John 1:14 states that God's word (what God had in mind and in His foreknowledge and had declared as word) became reality (cp. 1Pe 1:20) in that this human person, whom God had in mind to be man's redeemer and Messiah, was conceived and then born.

    Summary ideas about John 1:1 and 1:14 reflect faith belief while simply failing to truly explain Scripture. Assumed is a Saint Lucian theology idea (from the early 300's) there was a time the Son was not, which contradicts the simple reading of John 1:1 In the beginning was being The Word, and The Word was being with God, and God was being The Word. (Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.). A student of Saint Lucian is Arius so theological idea (assumed in your faith belief ideas) became known as Arianism or "The Arian controversy". Since beginning of creation, One Holy God has been the same. However, One God has not shared with humans insight about One God prior to creation. Physical evidence that can be tested by humans points back to Big Bang: a plural unified Holy God said: "Let there be Light."

    @Wolfgang Simple, isn't it? Truth is simple ...

    While remembering Jewish convention of reading Gd's Holy Name (YHVH) as Adonai (LORD) and 1 Corinthians 12:3, try saying "Jesus is Lord" (cannot be done when believing Jesus is not God). A True Christian has turned from their sin to Praise God by believing & saying "Jesus is Lord !" A plural unified God enables humans to know Holy God is real while humans have free will to choose/receive God's gift of Grace that cleanses sin.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Did Holy God sin by creating/fashioning Adam & Eve in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27) while knowing Adam & Eve would disobey God = sin ?

    @Wolfgang You claimed that Jesus was God because he was HOLY and WITHOUT SIN. You also acknowledged that Adam was created HOLY and WITHOUT SIN. According to your idea then, because Adam was created HOLY and WITHOUT SIN, Adam also was God. Your idea however causes a problem, in that when Adam (who according to your claims would have been God) later sinned, that Adam-God would have sinned ... Thus, your claims are showing themselves to be quite obviously incorrect.

    Obviously incorrect is "your idea" about Adam-God. Being created Holy and "without sin" by One Holy God in the image (singular) of God (plural) made Adam a kind of human with the abiilty to awesomely & lovingly connect with God creator (depending on Adam's choice what to love most) while not being a god (Breath of Life did not include life-giving power in itself so Adam could not raise Cain from the dead). Children of Adam & Eve are human. In contrast, Jesus has life-giving power in Himself (same as God The Father) as spoken by Jesus in John 5:26-29 (so those in the grave shall hear the voice of Jesus and come forth to judgement: done good to resurrection of life, done evil to resurrection of damnation) & documented in many Gospels as Jesus raising people from the dead: e.g. Lazarus in John 11.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus I do not want to imagine myself being in the intense Loving presence of Lord God and choosing to disobey His commands: e.g. John 20:27 commands (imperatives) by Jesus to touch & see what Thomas had said in John 20:25 (because my disobedience would give a Holy Righteous God swift reason to send me to the place prepared for our spiritual adversary, who choose to sin after being beautifully created - Isaiah 14:12-17).

    @Bill_Coley In my previous post I asked where in the text of John 20.26-29 you found support for your claim that Thomas physically touched the resurrected body of Jesus. In response, you told me why, out of fear of the possible consequences of not doing so, you would have complied with Jesus' instruction had you been in Thomas' place, but you didn't tell me where in the Johannine text you find support for your claim that Thomas complied. So again I ask: Where in the text of John 20.26-29 do you find support for your assertion that "Thomas touched the physical scars in the human body of the resurrected Jesus"?

    Text of John 20.26-29 does not say whether Thomas obeyed (or not) two loving commands by Jesus to touch hands & side of resurrected human body. Concur if I had been Thomas, I would have obeyed/touched Jesus before declaring my belief & worship of Jesus as: "My Lord and My God!" 1st John 1 begins with "We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life. This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. " (so more than one human heard, saw, and touched Jesus according to John albeit letter of 1st John does not specify when for hearing, seeing, touching).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Why did Adam choose to sin (Genesis 3) by disobeying God while Jesus did not sin (chose to remain/be Holy) ? Our spiritual adversary only needed one question "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" for Adam & Eve (our ancestors) to choose disobedience (sin).

    You already give the answer to your question .... because Adam by his decision CHOOSE TO DISOBEY God, whereas jesus CHOOSE TO OBEY God even to the point of giving his life as sin sacrifice.

    Concur about one kind of Holy and "without sin", but Adam was human (not God) while Jesus is both human & eternal God (The Word)

    No "but" here ... IF Adam was human, then Jesus was human. There is NO SUCH A LIVING BEING as "both human & eternal God (the Word)".

    What do Old Testament/Covenant (Tanakh) Scriptures testify about Jesus ?

    That he would be a man, a human being (NOTHING about a "God-man / man-God" ! because such does not exist) cp. Gen 3:15; cp. God's promise to Abraham and to David about the Messiah being their descendant .... obviously, you would not want to make God a descendant of Abraham or David, or do you?

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    What do Old Testament/Covenant (Tanakh) Scriptures testify about Jesus ? e.g. Proverbs 30:4 (AV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    The reference to a "son" in Proverbs 30.4 is clearly NOT a reference to God's son. The verse begins by telling us the name of the one who travels to heaven, holds the wind, controls the oceans, and created the world: God. Therefore, when the writer asks for the name of the one who does all those things, he's essentially re-phrasing his initial question: Who OTHER THAN GOD does all those things? What's THAT PERSON'S name? And while you're at it, further identify the one other than God you think does all those things by telling us his son's name.


    How can The Lord (YHVH) be pierced by humans in Jerusalem ? Saith The LORD in Zechariah 12:10 (AV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplications: And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    Zechariah 12.10 refers to a "firstborn son who has died" as part of a simile. The family of David and the people of Jerusalem will respond to the piercing with grief comparable to the grief felt in response to the death of a first born son. Because the reference to a son is a simile, the verse does NOT say the first born son is the one who is pierced.

    The language of Zechariah 12.10 is curious and confusing in that God at first says it is God Godself who will be pierced, but in the next sentence in the same verse refers to the piercing victim in third person ("him").


    While remembering Jewish convention of reading Gd's Holy Name (YHVH) as Adonai (LORD) and 1 Corinthians 12:3, try saying "Jesus is Lord" (cannot be done when believing Jesus is not God). A True Christian has turned from their sin to Praise God by believing & saying "Jesus is Lord !" A plural unified God enables humans to know Holy God is real while humans have free will to choose/receive God's gift of Grace that cleanses sin.

    If Jesus as "Lord" means Jesus was God, then why in Acts 2.36 does Peter say God "MADE" Jesus "both Lord and the Messiah"? And why does Paul tell the Romans that Jesus was "SHOWN to the the Son of God" when God raised him from the dead? (Romans 1.4) How could one who was ALREADY God be MADE to be God?


    Text of John 20.26-29 does not say whether Thomas obeyed (or not) two loving commands by Jesus to touch hands & side of resurrected human body. Concur if I had been Thomas, I would have obeyed/touched Jesus before declaring my belief & worship of Jesus as: "My Lord and My God!" 1st John 1 begins with "We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life. This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. " (so more than one human heard, saw, and touched Jesus according to John albeit letter of 1st John does not specify when for hearing, seeing, touching).

    I don't contend that no one touched the resurrected Jesus. I only contend that John 20 does not say Thomas touched the resurrected Jesus. Further, in my view, Jesus' response to Thomas - "You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.” (John 20.29) - suggests strongly that Thomas did NOT touch Jesus in that scene. Had he touched him, I think it highly likely Jesus would have said "You believe because you have touched me," to draw attention to what it took for Thomas to believe.

    So 1) Thomas responds with confession, not touch, to Jesus' invitation to touch him; 2) Jesus responds to Thomas' confession with a word about his having seen him, not touched him. In my view, those observations make a strong case for the proposition that Thomas did not touch Jesus in the John 20.26-29 scene.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Text of John 20.26-29 does not say whether Thomas obeyed (or not) two loving commands by Jesus to touch hands & side of resurrected human body. Concur if I had been Thomas, I would have obeyed/touched Jesus before declaring my belief & worship of Jesus as: "My Lord and My God!"

    Where did you leave your often mentioned regard for Jewish thinking in reference to this passage and Thomas' exclamation? Was it not common knowledge to all Jews that God is invisible? DId Jews believe that God was a human being ? Did Jews believe that God was Three rather than One? Was Thomas of Jewish background? What happened to the OT scripture that speaks about nobody being able to actually see God and live? Did Thomas (and the other disciples who also saw Jesus) all drop dead when they saw "the Lord and God Jesus"?

    Do you realize from these few very simple questions that your faith belief of Thomas declaring that he believed Jesus was his God does not agree with Scripture but instead reflects a personal belief that apparently is based on an incorrect interpretation of Thomas' words?

    Ever heard someone exclaim "Oh my God!!" when realizing something extraordinary and wonderful? I have heard of people helping someone in a very difficult situation and achieving an extraordinary unbelievable success in saving the person's life .. and the only thing I could say "My God!" Was my exclamation directed at any of the persons involved there? NO! My exclamation was directed to my God in heaven, whom I acknowledged as having been somehow involved in the seemingly impossible feat.

    Thomas was apparently quite stirred by what he saw with his own eyes right in from of him .... who says, his exclamatory words "my Lord and my God" were even directed at Jesus and not an exclamation acknowledging that God had indeed raised the man Jesus from the dead? Just because all Trinity believing and influenced theologians try to make this statement into their proof text that Jesus is God, does not make their interpretation to be true ... especially so in light of the Jewish perspective for a correct understanding of Scripture.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What do Old Testament/Covenant (Tanakh) Scriptures testify about Jesus ? e.g. Proverbs 30:4 (AV) Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?

    @Bill_Coley The reference to a "son" in Proverbs 30.4 is clearly NOT a reference to God's son. The verse begins by telling us the name of the one who travels to heaven, holds the wind, controls the oceans, and created the world: God. Therefore, when the writer asks for the name of the one who does all those things, he's essentially re-phrasing his initial question: Who OTHER THAN GOD does all those things? What's THAT PERSON'S name? And while you're at it, further identify the one other than God you think does all those things by telling us his son's name.

    שְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהוָ֥ה׀ אֶחָֽד׃ Deuteronomy 6:4 includes Eloheinu (אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ plural Elohim God of us) and YHVH (יְהוָ֥ה) that answers Proverbs 30:4

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How can The Lord (YHVH) be pierced by humans in Jerusalem ? Saith The LORD in Zechariah 12:10 (AV) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplications: And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    @Bill_Coley Zechariah 12.10 refers to a "firstborn son who has died" as part of a simile. The family of David and the people of Jerusalem will respond to the piercing with grief comparable to the grief felt in response to the death of a first born son. Because the reference to a son is a simile, the verse does NOT say the first born son is the one who is pierced.

    @Bill_Coley The language of Zechariah 12.10 is curious and confusing in that God at first says it is God Godself who will be pierced, but in the next sentence in the same verse refers to the piercing victim in third person ("him").

    Yeshua (YHVH Salvation) and Lord (YHVH) share YHVH name of Holy God so Zechariah 12:10 prophecy includes two perspectives in One God.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus While remembering Jewish convention of reading Gd's Holy Name (YHVH) as Adonai (LORD) and 1 Corinthians 12:3, try saying "Jesus is Lord" (cannot be done when believing Jesus is not God). A True Christian has turned from their sin to Praise God by believing & saying "Jesus is Lord !" A plural unified God enables humans to know Holy God is real while humans have free will to choose/receive God's gift of Grace that cleanses sin.

    @Bill_Coley If Jesus as "Lord" means Jesus was God, then why in Acts 2.36 does Peter say God "MADE" Jesus "both Lord and the Messiah"? And why does Paul tell the Romans that Jesus was "SHOWN to the the Son of God" when God raised him from the dead? (Romans 1.4) How could one who was ALREADY God be MADE to be God?

    Acts 2:36 know => γινώσκω (ginosko) is knowledge with experience. In contrast, οἶδα (oida) is knowledge of ideas (intellectual). God made Jesus to be God's Kingly Priest of Righteousness, who is ruling on God's throne, as a result of Jesus humbly choosing to endure cross execution for the Joy set before Him (Hebrew 12:1-2). A Bible search for {Milestone <Ro1.4>} in Logos shows many words translated for ὁρίζω (orizo): shown, declared, predestinated, proved, appointed, demonstrated (reflects Greek word having a range of meaning so translation into English is the intersection of English target vocabulary and Greek range of meaning withing bounds of human translator believability). Remember Gamaliel in Acts 5:33-37 mentions two who claimed to be great (possibly a false messiah), but were proved to be nothing after their deaths. Passover (Pesach) has an historical basis as does Jesus being the passover lamb who was crucified, dead, buried, and rose from the dead, resurrected: Jesus is Alive !

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Concur about one kind of Holy and "without sin", but Adam was human (not God) while Jesus is both human & eternal God (The Word)

    @Wolfgang No "but" here ... IF Adam was human, then Jesus was human. There is NO SUCH A LIVING BEING as "both human & eternal God (the Word)".

    Faith belief 'There is NO SUCH A LIVING BEING as "both human & eternal God (the Word)"'. contradicts Scripture: e.g. John 14:1-14 & John 20:26-29

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What do Old Testament/Covenant (Tanakh) Scriptures testify about Jesus ?

    @Wolfgang That he would be a man, a human being (NOTHING about a "God-man / man-God" ! because such does not exist) cp. Gen 3:15; cp. God's promise to Abraham and to David about the Messiah being their descendant .... obviously, you would not want to make God a descendant of Abraham or David, or do you?

    Remember Jesus asking "If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" in Matthew 22:41-46 (AV) that refers to Psalm 110 penned by David

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Text of John 20.26-29 does not say whether Thomas obeyed (or not) two loving commands by Jesus to touch hands & side of resurrected human body. Concur if I had been Thomas, I would have obeyed/touched Jesus before declaring my belief & worship of Jesus as: "My Lord and My God!"

    @Wolfgang Where did you leave your often mentioned regard for Jewish thinking in reference to this passage and Thomas' exclamation? Was it not common knowledge to all Jews that God is invisible? DId Jews believe that God was a human being ? Did Jews believe that God was Three rather than One? Was Thomas of Jewish background? What happened to the OT scripture that speaks about nobody being able to actually see God and live? Did Thomas (and the other disciples who also saw Jesus) all drop dead when they saw "the Lord and God Jesus"?

    At the Last Supper, Passover, or Pesach (remembering God's mighty work in Exodus 12-15 plus more): Jesus taught to believe in Jesus the same as God The Father (a plural unified God) => John 14:1-14 (AV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    @Wolfgang Do you realize from these few very simple questions that your faith belief of Thomas declaring that he believed Jesus was his God does not agree with Scripture but instead reflects a personal belief that apparently is based on an incorrect interpretation of Thomas' words?

    Thomas belief & worship of Jesus as: "My Lord and My God !" happened ~1.5 weeks after Jesus taught disciples to believe in Jesus also as God.

    @Wolfgang Thomas was apparently quite stirred by what he saw with his own eyes right in from of him .... who says, his exclamatory words "my Lord and my God" were even directed at Jesus and not an exclamation acknowledging that God had indeed raised the man Jesus from the dead? Just because all Trinity believing and influenced theologians try to make this statement into their proof text that Jesus is God, does not make their interpretation to be true ... especially so in light of the Jewish perspective for a correct understanding of Scripture.

    My faith believes ALL Scripture is True (so is consistent), which includes a plural unified God. Hence my faith belief in One God's commUnity of Love includes believing in Jesus the same as believing in God The Father => Two voices in One Being God sharing One Heart, One Spirit (invisible & indivisable while being present in many places at the same time, which a human cannot do), One Strength, One Name.

    @Wolfgang Ever heard someone exclaim "Oh my God!!" when realizing something extraordinary and wonderful? I have heard of people helping someone in a very difficult situation and achieving an extraordinary unbelievable success in saving the person's life .. and the only thing I could say "My God!" Was my exclamation directed at any of the persons involved there? NO! My exclamation was directed to my God in heaven, whom I acknowledged as having been somehow involved in the seemingly impossible feat.

    Not applicable to discussion about Thomas due to physical resurrected body of Jesus not being present to see (and touch).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Concur about one kind of Holy and "without sin", but Adam was human (not God) while Jesus is both human & eternal God (The Word)

    @Wolfgang No "but" here ... IF Adam was human, then Jesus was human. There is NO SUCH A LIVING BEING as "both human & eternal God (the Word)".

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Faith belief 'There is NO SUCH A LIVING BEING as "both human & eternal God (the Word)"'. contradicts Scripture: e.g. John 14:1-14 & John 20:26-29

    The two scripture passages to which you refer as your proof text for an idea of a "God-man" / "man-God" do NOWHERE say or teach that the Bible teaches that there is such a person/being as a "God-man" or "man-God" (a common concept in ancient Babylonian and other mythologies). Your "private" interpretation on which you base your private faith belief that Scripture and even Jesus himself taught he was such a "God-man" is plainly false.

    @Wolfgang Where did you leave your often mentioned regard for Jewish thinking in reference to this passage and Thomas' exclamation? Was it not common knowledge to all Jews that God is invisible? DId Jews believe that God was a human being ? Did Jews believe that God was Three rather than One? Was Thomas of Jewish background? What happened to the OT scripture that speaks about nobody being able to actually see God and live? Did Thomas (and the other disciples who also saw Jesus) all drop dead when they saw "the Lord and God Jesus"?


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus At the Last Supper, Passover, or Pesach (remembering God's mighty work in Exodus 12-15 plus more): Jesus taught to believe in Jesus the same as God The Father (a plural unified God) => John 14:1-14 (AV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    You are demonstrating that it is impossible to have a simple plain exchange or conversation with you on basically anything. I am sure, you think you answered to my above questions, and you yourself do not realize that you didn't .... it's like someone asked you some questions about "apples" and you then gave a speech on "bananas".

    The passages from John 14:1-14 which you marked in bold print actually prove that Jesus did NOT think of himself as God, but made a clear distinction between himself and God, his Father. Your logic of using Jesus' statement like believe in God, believe also in me as proof that Jesus was God is as false as if you take my statement "trust my wife, trust also in me" and claim that I am my wife ... such a logic is total nonsense. Now, I can already imagine what you would reply to this paragraph and my example of your type of logic.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My faith believes ALL Scripture is True (so is consistent),

    Does that belief make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

    Btw, I believe that ALL Scripture is true ...

    which includes a plural unified God.

    Is your interpretation really what Scripture even teaches?? What actually does "PLURAL UNIFIED" mean??

    Hence my faith belief in One God's commUnity of Love includes believing in Jesus the same as believing in God The Father => Two voices in One Being God sharing One Heart, One Spirit (invisible & indivisable while being present in many places at the same time, which a human cannot do), One Strength, One Name.

    According to Scripture, God is NOT a "community of {anything}", but a SINGLE ACTING SPIRIT BEING.

    Your faith belief of "believing in Jesus THE SAME AS believing in God The Father" is unscriptural ... Scripture makes a very clear distinction between God and Jesus; for example: God is the FATHER, Jesus is that God's only begotten SON, therefore to believe in a manner of "the same as" is contrary to what Scripture teaches.

    Your "two voices in One Being God" is a subsequent false idea to your "plural unified" mentioned above.

    Your "(invisble & indivisible ...)" is another blatant contradiction of Scripture ... Jesus was INVISIBLE ?? Poor Thomas and the other disciples must have been hallucinating or were they able see someone invisible?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Yeshua (YHVH Salvation) and Lord (YHVH) share YHVH name of Holy God so Zechariah 12:10 prophecy includes two perspectives in One God.

    No ... Jesus (Yeshua) and YHWH do NOT share the name YHWH ... two distinct names of two distinct beings/persons.

    And don't come with the argument that YHWH (of just YH) is part of the name of Yeshuah .... because so is the name Isaiah, Jerremiah, Zechariah and others .. which -- I would think -- you do not want to claim that the persons with those names were also further perspectives in One God ?

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My faith believes ALL Scripture is True (so is consistent),

    @Wolfgang Does that belief make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

    Thankful for Holy the Breath (in One God) peacefully correcting my scriptural understanding plus willing/wanting to be truthfully aligned in One God (do not desire eternal consequences for adding nor taking away from God's Truth). In this "A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity" thread, please provide text reference(s) for me to prayerfully consider when my interpretation is unbelievably false per your faith belief. "According to Scripture" idea without any Scripture is a faith belief "fact" summary. My prayers include speaking/writing God's Truth using God's wise words while am a human work in progress (a Gentile who is learning Jewish ways because Jesus was a traveling Jewish Rabbi who came to fulfill Torah - I lack credibility to speak for all Jews). Thankful for CD replies, which has helped my wonderous worship in One God's commUnity of Love to grow.

    @Wolfgang Btw, I believe that ALL Scripture is true ...

    Your CD reputation for stating your own "facts" (without verifiable evidence) leaves me needing to test your scriptural interpretation for Holy God's Truth (encountering a crafty mixture of Truth and fantasy from my faith belief perspective). Please test my human writing for God's Truth (humanly limited in my expression about One Holy God: e.g. I lack words to express magnitude for every aspect in God's Holy Fruit of the Spirit).

    @Wolfgang What actually does "PLURAL UNIFIED" mean??

    My faith believes in Jesus the same as God The Father because the voices of Jesus and Abba (Daddy, Father) are unified in One Holy God. At times my worship is directed to all of One Holy God while other times my worship is directed to distinct voice(s) in One God's commUnity of Love 😍

    My scriptural basis of "PLURAL UNIFIED" includes Deuteronomy 6:4-9 (the most important commandment), which has mixture of singular and plural words inspired by One God to describe Holy God with command to Love plural unified God that begins with: Hear & Obey (shema) Israel, LORD (YHVH) God (plural God of us) LORD (YHVH) One Being (echad) and you shall Love LORD (YHVH) God (plural God of you singular) with all ...

    By the way, Hebrew has a different word, yachid (יחד) that means one and only: e.g. Psalm 86.11 (AV) Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in thy truth: Unite my heart to fear thy name.. (<Lemma = lbs/he/יחד> has 3 results in 3 verses). Hebrew word echad(אֶחָד) in Deuteronomy 6:4 also appears in Genesis 11:1 (AV) And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. (<Lemma = lbs/he/אֶחָד> has 970 results in 739 verses)

    @Wolfgang Your faith belief of "believing in Jesus THE SAME AS believing in God The Father" is unscriptural ... 

    Which is more credible ? your "unscriptural" faith belief idea OR what Jesus commanded (Greek imperative πιστεύετε) His disciples in Scripture ? John 14:1 (ESV) Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.

    If the spirit/soul inside the physical human body of the man Jesus is not The Word (eternally being God in the beginning while One God is being more than The Word so God The Father ruled in heaven while Jesus walked on earth), then command (imperative) by Jesus "ye believe in God, believe also in me" in John 14:1 (AV) contradicts Exodus 20:3 (AV) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. & Deuteronomy 4:2-4 (AV) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. Your eyes have seen what the Lord did because of Baal-peor: for all the men that followed Baal-peor, the Lord thy God hath destroyed them from among you. But ye that did cleave unto the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day.

    If Jesus is not God, then following/obeying Jesus would give a Holy God righteous reason to destroy you (as was done to Baal-peor followers).

    If Jesus is God, then following/obeying Jesus glorifies God.

    @Wolfgang Your "(invisble & indivisible ...)" is another blatant contradiction of Scripture ... Jesus was INVISIBLE ?? Poor Thomas and the other disciples must have been hallucinating or were they able see someone invisible?

    Again your "..." quoting leaves out relevant idea context "One Spirit (invisible & indivisable while being present in many places at the same time, which a human cannot do)" about my understanding idea of a plural unified God that intimately shares One Spirit in a commUnity of Love, which has three divine voices for expressing Love: The Father, The Son, Holy The Breath. (Ruach HaKodesh literally means Holy The Breath). Mount of Transfiguration event in Matthew 17 and Mark 9 includes words from two divine voices of God, which were heard by Peter, James, and John. Many stories of humans visiting heaven followed by coming back to earth include recognition of believing relatives in heaven so the Image of God reflected in human bodies may include physical body showing spirit shape that dwells inside (since human spirit in heaven is recognizable without physical body), which would be consistent with words spoken by Jesus in John 14:9 (ESV) Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. 

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Yeshua (YHVH Salvation) and Lord (YHVH) share YHVH name of Holy God so Zechariah 12:10 prophecy includes two perspectives in One God.

    @Wolfgang No ... Jesus (Yeshua) and YHWH do NOT share the name YHWH ... two distinct names of two distinct beings/persons.

    Jeremiah 23:5-6 includes the Lord (יְהוָ֔ה) sharing Holy God's name of the Lord Our Righteousness (יְהוָ֥ה׀ צִדְקֵֽנוּ) with David's human descendant. Jeremiah 23:5-6 (AV) Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Lexham Bible Dictionary entry about Nazareth includes:

    One interpretive theory envisions a play on the word “Nazarene,” which could allude to the “branch” (נֵצֶר, netser) of Isa 11:1 (MT; Luz, Matthew 1–7, 150; Keener, Matthew, 114). This fits the theme of Davidic fulfillment that is prominent in the opening of Matthew’s gospel. Furthermore, Isa 11:1–10 was an important interpretive text for other New Testament authors (Rom 15:12; Rev 5:5; 22:16) and early Christian thinkers (e.g., Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 126.1), and is known to have been interpreted messianically in other early Jewish circles (e.g., 1QH 6:15; 7:19; 8:6, 8:10). This solution requires that (at least some of) Matthew’s audience was literate enough in Hebrew to recognize the triconsonantal Hebrew root when they heard or read “Nazarene.”

    Considering many Jewish expressions used in Matthew (along with this Gospel possibly being written initially in Hebrew before translation to Greek), would expect many in Matthew's intended audience to hear triconsonantal Hebrew root for branch (and remember Jeremiah 23:5-6).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689
    edited April 2

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus My faith believes ALL Scripture is True (so is consistent),

    @Wolfgang Does that belief make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Thankful for Holy the Breath (in One God) peacefully correcting my scriptural understanding plus willing/wanting to be truthfully aligned in One God (do not desire eternal consequences for adding nor taking away from God's Truth). ....

    Could you just for once ANSWER when you were asked a question ?????? In case you missed the question asked above, here it is again: Does that belief (that is, your belief that ALL Scripture is True) make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Holy The Breath. (Ruach HaKodesh literally means Holy The Breath)

    My Apologies (plus proof my human words need testing for God's Truth). Ruach (רוּחַ (rûaḥ)) is a feminine noun meaing breath, wind, spirit while HaKodesh (קֹדֶשׁ (qōdeš)). is a masculine noun (with definite article Ha הַ = The) meaning holiness, a sacred place or thing, sanctity, consecrated thing. Hence, Ruach HaKodesh literally means Breath The Holy.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • @Wolfgang Does that belief (that is, your belief that ALL Scripture is True) make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

    One Holy God is Truth: Exodus 34:1-9 (Lord God), John 18:33-38 (Jesus), 1 John 5:6-12 (Breath The Holy). 1 Thessalonians 5:13-25 uses many imperative verbs: Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.  (my human goal of interpreting Scripture is Holy God's Truth and have experienced Scripture being literally True when humanly can understand literal meaning - my faith belief reflects literal Scripture Truth about One Holy God's Love. Personally enjoy listening to God's Word on DVD and CD's, which allows God's Breath The Holy to stop me so we can focus on Truth being said (faith comes by hearing and hearing by The Word - Romans 10:14-17)

    In contrast, many of your "Scripture" summary ideas expressed in this thread shows your faith belief "fact" while lacking verifiable Scripture text basis (consistent with your description in an earlier thread about choosing One God faith belief from a spirit impression upon you).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Wolfgang Does that belief (that is, your belief that ALL Scripture is True) make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus One Holy God is Truth: Exodus 34:1-9 (Lord God), John 18:33-38 (Jesus), 1 John 5:6-12 (Breath The Holy). 1 Thessalonians 5:13-25 uses many imperative verbs: Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. (my human goal of interpreting Scripture is Holy God's Truth and have experienced Scripture being literally True when humanly can understand literal meaning - my faith belief reflects literal Scripture Truth about One Holy God's Love. Personally enjoy listening to God's Word on DVD and CD's, which allows God's Breath The Holy to stop me so we can focus on Truth being said (faith comes by hearing and hearing by The Word - Romans 10:14-17)

    Once again, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, could you just for once ANSWER a question when you are asked a question ?????? Since you seemingly missed the question I have asked twice above, here it is again: Does that belief (that is, your belief that ALL Scripture is True) make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

    Now, most likely everyone here would answer that simple question with a simple straight forward "NO!" Just because everyone knows that even though they believe that all Scripture is true, that does not make them to be infallible regarding their understanding and interpretation. You try to avoid admitting such for yourself by avoiding to answer the question I asked ... Is your belief really that your understanding and interpretation of Scripture is always true and it is impossible for you to have an incorrect understanding of Scripture? Perhaps you want to claim that you are so highly spiritual or whatever that making a mistake or lacking understanding is impossible for you??

    In contrast, many of your "Scripture" summary ideas expressed in this thread shows your faith belief "fact" while lacking verifiable Scripture text basis (consistent with your description in an earlier thread about choosing One God faith belief from a spirit impression upon you).

    Excuse me .... where have I said anything about my One God faith as being from a spirit impression upon me ???? YOU are the one who is constantly evading plain forward scripture provided by me (and also by Bill), and YOU speak about "personally allowing God's Breath The Holy" as what guides you and impresses you ... and you do so even when your thus supposedly "God inspired understanding" contradicts what Scripture teaches.

    Well, perhaps I am just too low spiritually to get what you have on oyur high level spiritual expertise ? ....

  • How could Jesus experience God The Father's glory before any human existed ? John 17:5 (AV) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (NLT) Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

    God The Father (Will) & Son of God (Word) were already sharing One God's glory together "In the Beginning" (Genesis 1:1 & John 1:1) before God (plural) said "Let there be light" followed by subsequent breath of life to create Adam out of dust in the Holy image of God (then fashioning Eve from one of Adam's bones - Genesis 1:1-2:25). The "today" prophetic relationship about God The Father (Lord) and Son in Psalm 2:7 was fulfilled when The Word (being God) left heaven for Holy conception inside Mary by Breath The Holy (Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-38 & John 1:1-18). One mystery of God is: did Breath The Holy (Ruach HaKodesh) create a special male sperm OR modify a female ovum inside Mary ? One Holy God designed/created human kind procreation process so knows exactly what happens at every step (so could choose to create a sperm OR modify an ovum, either way results in a zygote = fertilized ovum for Holy Conception of a human male child). Human fathers are always physically older than their children. In contrast (in the beginning), The Will (God The Father) and The Word (Son of God) were sharing One God's glory together before creating the world. Hence Father & Son relationship in One God does not express chronology since they eternally existed/exist together.

    Another mystery of One God is human growth of Jesus so wonder if Jesus had a "terrible two" stage along with wondering how did the man Jesus get to know God's glory before the world began. Matthew 17 and Mark 9 describe transfiguration of human body into light, which is consistent with Jesus saying "I am the light of the world" in John 8:12, 9:5, and 12:46 (reiterated in 1 John 1:5) Humans cannot cause their own body to transfigure into light. When Jesus prayed by Himself, wonder if Jesus transfigured into light for glorious communion fellowship in One God. Note: numerous non-biblical stories from people who have been to heaven/hell describe Jesus being Light (along with Love beyond human description).

    Did Jesus ever lie ? God is not a man that He should lie (Numbers 23:19), if any word(s) spoken by Jesus = a lie, then Jesus is not God.

    @Wolfgang This talk of God and intelligent voices, etc. is something you believe as part of your faith belief ... it is also not found in Scripture.

    What is "the mind of the Spirit" in Romans 8:27 ? If Breath The Holy (Ruach HaKodesh) is only power, how could power have a mind (intelligence) of its own ? Acts 5:1-11 documents deaths of Ananias and Sapphira for lying to Breath The Holy (God)

    Can power be grieved ? Isaiah 63:10 (ESV) But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; (אֶת־ר֣וּחַ קָדְשׁ֑וֹ - Breath/Wind Holiness His - ruah qodes hu)

    @Wolfgang Once again, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, could you just for once ANSWER a question when you are asked a question ?????? Since you seemingly missed the question I have asked twice above, here it is again: Does that belief (that is, your belief that ALL Scripture is True) make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

    Apologies (& sad) for my previous answers to your repeated belief question not being understood (my answers did not express my human weakness & limitations using words you expected so please pray for me to speak/write God's Truth in Love using God's wise words). Again, if my words about Scripture interpretation appear unbelievably false to you, please, please, please provide Scripture for me to prayerfully consider. Without Scripture basis and Truthful conviction by God, personally have no reason to change my faith belief (desire God's Truth in my thoughts).

    1 Thessalonians 5:14-26 has sixteen imperative (command) verbs so please test my words for God's Truth (humanly am imperfect & learning).

    Scripture based question in this thread on March 20 and March 27 lacks reply by both @Bill_Coley and @Wolfgang:

    If identifying as a Christian (Acts 11:26 not worshipping local gods) meant denying Jesus is YHVH God OR choosing way to die: 1) Crucifixion (like Jesus), 2) Mauled by wild animals, 3) Put into a pot of boiling oil, 4) Burned on a stake => would you choose to deny Jesus is YHVH God OR to die ?

    Additional question is: According to Jesus in Matthew 10:32-39, what is the result of denying Jesus before others ?

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How could Jesus experience God The Father's glory before any human existed ? John 17:5 (AV) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (NLT) Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

    Jesuss did NOT share anything with God before any human existed ... You seem to fall for a curious translation which gives this impression; obviously the translator held that faith belief and translated it into his translation of the verse in John 17:5.

    Yes, Jesus did in fact have glory with God, his Father before the world was .... how? Properly consider Scripture overall and you too can rarther easily understand ....cp. what God had in HIs mind and plan for His Son, the Messiah in God's foreknowledge => first came suffering, then glory.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    If identifying as a Christian (Acts 11:26 not worshipping local gods) meant denying Jesus is YHVH God OR choosing way to die: 1) Crucifixion (like Jesus), 2) Mauled by wild animals, 3) Put into a pot of boiling oil, 4) Burned on a stake => would you choose to deny Jesus is YHVH God OR to die ?

    1. Acts 11.26 says nothing about the worship or non-worship of "local gods." Its subject is Saul and Barnabus' one year in Antioch, where the disciples were first called "Christians."
    2. Since, in my view, Jesus is NOT God, your question presents a false choice. I would choose to deny that Jesus is God. Yes, in your false choice that would mean I would live, but the motivation behind my response would not be to preserve my life, but rather to express my faith. A more germane question would be, if denying that Jesus is God meant that I would be executed by one of the means you cited, would I still deny Jesus is God? I pray I would because to do so would mean I died having stood on Scripture, principle, and faith. To save my life by lying about my view of who Jesus is would reflect a serious character flaw, one with which I hope I would have trouble coming to terms.


    Additional question is: According to Jesus in Matthew 10:32-39, what is the result of denying Jesus before others ?

    1. Jesus does NOT define the consequences of denying that he is God. Instead, he speaks of "acknowledgement," a recognition of his presence and ministry. Jesus says he will acknowledge before God (the one he calls "Father") those who acknowledge him on earth.
    2. In Matthew 10.28-31 Jesus makes references to God that in no way suggest he believes himself to be God.
    3. SO, Jesus will acknowledge/deny people before God (his "Father") and he says people should fear, NOT him, but rather God (the one who can destroy bodies and souls in hell).
    4. There is NO indication in the Matthew 10 text that Jesus believes he is God.


  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Wolfgang Once again, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, could you just for once ANSWER a question when you are asked a question ?????? Since you seemingly missed the question I have asked twice above, here it is again: Does that belief (that is, your belief that ALL Scripture is True) make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Apologies (& sad) for my previous answers to your repeated belief question not being understood (my answers did not express my human weakness & limitations using words you expected so please pray for me to speak/write God's Truth in Love using God's wise words). Again, if my words about Scripture interpretation appear unbelievably false to you, please, please, please provide Scripture for me to prayerfully consider. Without Scripture basis and Truthful conviction by God, personally have no reason to change my faith belief (desire God's Truth in my thoughts).

    I am still waiting for you to answer my very simple question, which I have asked above (several times) ... You can save yourself all kinds of thoughts which have nothing to do with an answer to the question. Is all of what you interpret from Scripture true??

    I'll add this: Answer "Yes, it is" if you are of that opinion, answer "No, it isn't" if you are of that opinion. In case you do not realize this, a "Yes" answer would show us that you consider yourself to be infallible and always true.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How could Jesus experience God The Father's glory before any human existed ? John 17:5 (AV) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (NLT) Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began.

    @Wolfgang Jesuss did NOT share anything with God before any human existed ... You seem to fall for a curious translation which gives this impression; obviously the translator held that faith belief and translated it into his translation of the verse in John 17:5.

    @Wolfgang Yes, Jesus did in fact have glory with God, his Father before the world was .... how? Properly consider Scripture overall and you too can rarther easily understand ....cp. what God had in HIs mind and plan for His Son, the Messiah in God's foreknowledge => first came suffering, then glory.

    Which is more credible ? your faith belief ideas OR what Jesus prayed ? Textual Apparatus shows no Greek manuscript variations in John 17:2-7

    John 17:5 has Greek word basis for Jesus being beside God The Father along with having God The Father's glory before the world existed.

    καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ , πάτερ , (δόξασόν is aorist, active, indicative, imperative (command), second person, singular of verb δοξάζω to glorify)

    and now glorify me you , Father , (Father is vocative with you = nominative so subject of this phrase is God The Father)

    παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον (εἶχον is imperfect (continous action in past time), active, indicative, first person, singular of verb ἔχω to have)

    beside yourself the glory that I was having

    πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί. (εἶναι is present, active, infinitive of verb εἰμί to be/exist)

    before the the world to be/exist beside you (the first the, τοῦ, is grammatically neuter genitive/ablative object of preposition πρὸ)

    My textual criticism research of John 17:5 found a reference to John 17:24 (AV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    How could Jesus experience the Love of God The Father before the world (and any human) existed ? While in planning stage, future participant(s) do not experience being Loved. Your children could not experience your love until they were conceived with subsequent birth and growth.

    Words prayed by Jesus in John 17 (God's glory before the world existed) reflect John 1:1-18 The Word (being eternally God, who became flesh).

    @Wolfgang Once again, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, could you just for once ANSWER a question when you are asked a question ?????? Since you seemingly missed the question I have asked twice above, here it is again: Does that belief (that is, your belief that ALL Scripture is True) make all of what you interpret from Scripture true?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Apologies (& sad) for my previous answers to your repeated belief question not being understood (my answers did not express my human weakness & limitations using words you expected so please pray for me to speak/write God's Truth in Love using God's wise words). Again, if my words about Scripture interpretation appear unbelievably false to you, please, please, please provide Scripture for me to prayerfully consider. Without Scripture basis and Truthful conviction by God, personally have no reason to change my faith belief (desire God's Truth in my thoughts).

    @Wolfgang I am still waiting for you to answer my very simple question, which I have asked above (several times) ... You can save yourself all kinds of thoughts which have nothing to do with an answer to the question. Is all of what you interpret from Scripture true??

    @Wolfgang I'll add this: Answer "Yes, it is" if you are of that opinion, answer "No, it isn't" if you are of that opinion. In case you do not realize this, a "Yes" answer would show us that you consider yourself to be infallible and always true.

    Wisdom in your eyes (e.g. "Properly consider Scripture overall and you too can rarther easily understand" idea) shows your answer being "Yes, it is" (since your faith belief ideas are more infallibly True to you than Scripture) while my answer is "No, it isn't" (with my prayerful goal to speak/write God's Truth in Love using God's wise words consistently, but being human has sad/selfish opportunites for me to make mistakes so please test my words for God's Truth). Thankful for Breath The Holy presence (words cannot express God's Holy magnitude in every aspect of Righteous Fruit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control), which has included His Truthful correction of Scripture understanding/interpretation in me (still living & learning with God's Living Word cutting to my soul & spirit - Hebrews 4:12-13 so humanly not like God's discipline while Loving God's Holy healing from my selfish sin nature). Wonderful is the Living Word of God so am becoming Holy in One God. Thankful can join all nature in declaring & praising God's Glory. Thankful for sunrise/sunset reminder about being redeemed by the blood of Jesus. My favorite letter is Ephesians, which Breath The Holy wrote through Paul for all believers. One God's Community of Love is in the one long Greek sentence in Ephesians 1:3-14 with two "present" tense verbs: "having redemption" (Ep1.7) and "is being" the guarantee (Ep1.14)

    Thankful to see the Image of God in you (via pictures: you & @Bill_Coley). God Loves You 😍 Does God like our sin choices ? No. God Loves Us 😍

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Wolfgang I am still waiting for you to answer my very simple question, which I have asked above (several times) ... You can save yourself all kinds of thoughts which have nothing to do with an answer to the question. Is all of what you interpret from Scripture true??

    @Wolfgang I'll add this: Answer "Yes, it is" if you are of that opinion, answer "No, it isn't" if you are of that opinion. In case you do not realize this, a "Yes" answer would show us that you consider yourself to be infallible and always true.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Wisdom in your eyes (e.g. "Properly consider Scripture overall and you too can rarther easily understand" idea) shows your answer being "Yes, it is" (since your faith belief ideas are more infallibly True to you than Scripture) while my answer is "No, it isn't" (with my prayerful goal to speak/write God's Truth in Love using God's wise words consistently, but being human has sad/selfish opportunites for me to make mistakes so please test my words for God's Truth).

    Well, at least you answered .... it took long enough. Still, you could not do with simpley answering but needed to falsely accuse me by insunating what may answer would be. In past post when I asked you the question, I already gave my answer ... and it was NOT what you falsely with your claimed presence of Breath The Holy in you have thought up.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Which is more credible ? your faith belief ideas OR what Jesus prayed ?

    You are asking the wrong question .... but you provide a nice illustration example for the topic of "all scripture is true / but not all interpretation is always true" What Jesus prayed as is recorded in John 17:5 is true and credible.

    The questioni is this: Is YOUR interpretation and what you make of John 17:5 true? or is my interpretation of it true?

    I would say it cannot be true because your ideas of Jesus already living and sharing God's glory before the world was (a) is NOT what the text of the verse says, and (b) contradicts other scriptures which show that before Jesus' glorification first would come his suffering. Thus YOUR faith belief is not in harmony with Scripture in various regards and therefore not credible.

    My Interpretation is that Jesus was praying that God would glorify him with the glory which he had had in God's foreknowledge in God's plan from even before the world was (cp 1Pe 1:20 ... God foreknew Jesus from before the foundation of the world). I would say therefore that my interpretation and faith belief is more in harmony with Scripture than yours and therefore more credible than yours.

  • Observation question: What does Scripture simply say about Jesus and God The Father before the world (and any humans) existed in John 17 ?

    John 17 (AV) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    A powerful Bible study method is S.O.A.P. plus prudent to pray Psalm 119:18 for God to open my eyes to behold wonders from His Teaching (God's spiritually inspired words needs God's spiritual guidance for understanding Living Word of God) before reading Scripture passage:

    • Scripture - Where is the passage in Scripture ?
    • Observe - What is Original Truth in Original Context ? What jumps out ?
    • Apply - What does God want you to do ?
    • Pray - Ask God for His help to do His Will

    Observations about John 17: When One Holy God was the only living Being with a plan that included humans, what did Jesus experience ? God's Glory & Love is simply stated in John 17:5 & John 17:24 with Jesus being beside God The Father. John 17:22 "we are one" => plural unified God.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Which is more credible ? your faith belief ideas OR what Jesus prayed ?

    @Wolfgang You are asking the wrong question .... but you provide a nice illustration example for the topic of "all scripture is true / but not all interpretation is always true" What Jesus prayed as is recorded in John 17:5 is true and credible.

    @Wolfgang The questioni is this: Is YOUR interpretation and what you make of John 17:5 true? or is my interpretation of it true?

    @Wolfgang I would say it cannot be true because your ideas of Jesus already living and sharing God's glory before the world was (a) is NOT what the text of the verse says, and (b) contradicts other scriptures which show that before Jesus' glorification first would come his suffering. Thus YOUR faith belief is not in harmony with Scripture in various regards and therefore not credible.

    @Wolfgang My Interpretation is that Jesus was praying that God would glorify him with the glory which he had had in God's foreknowledge in God's plan from even before the world was (cp 1Pe 1:20 ... God foreknew Jesus from before the foundation of the world). I would say therefore that my interpretation and faith belief is more in harmony with Scripture than yours and therefore more credible than yours.

    Where is God The Father's foreknowledge in John 17:5 (AV) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ , πάτερ , παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

    Sad (while not surprised) for a professional language translator (having study, knowledge, skills, and experience) to mishandle text when human faith belief contradicts Scripture. Your faith belief idea "(a) is NOT what the text of the verse says" proves my point that "your faith belief ideas are more infallibly True to you than Scripture". The Greek verb εἶχον is imperfect so declares Jesus was having (continuous action in past time) The Glory beside God The Father before the world was created. Your children do not have the experience of your parental planning to have them. Your plan can be echoed back by your children from you telling them, but your children cannot express any actual experience with your planning because they were not there. In contrast, Scripture says Jesus beside God The Father experienced Glory & Love before the world was created.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Observations about John 17: When One Holy God was the only living Being with a plan that included humans, what did Jesus experience ? God's Glory & Love is simply stated in John 17:5 & John 17:24 with Jesus being beside God The Father. John 17:22 "we are one" => plural unified God.

    Why do you not first observe correctly what the text says, especially so if you want to then accuse me of not observing the text???? Where does the text say anything about Jesus EXPERIENCING something before the world was?? Where does the text say anything abou Jesus being alive before the world was in order to experience something????

    Please,.. stop your habit of accusing the other of exactly those things you yourself are doing! If you can't stop that habit, just stop writing!

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689
    edited April 8

    So you don't accuse me of not answering your question:

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Where is God The Father's foreknowledge in John 17:5 (AV)

    Simple and straight forward answer to your question: It is right in Jesus' very own words " ... the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,689

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The Greek verb εἶχον is imperfect so declares Jesus was having (continuous action in past time) The Glory beside God The Father before the world was created.

    There is nothing in the verse as a whole nor in the verb εἶχον (to have) about "... having The Glory beside God the Father ..."

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Your children do not have the experience of your parental planning to have them.

    YOUR error is in reading "the experience" into the text. They certainly had their existence "with me and with my wife" ,,, how? They existed as thought and word in our family plan.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Your plan can be echoed back by your children from you telling them,

    Which is exactly what is the case with Jesus ... he knew even from Scripture what God had in mind from before the world was => that he was to first suffer as sin-sacrifice for the redemption of man and - if found faithful to God's will - that he afterwards was to be glorified by God and exalted. The Messiah thus had both (!!!) suffering and glory with God, his Father from before the world was.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus but your children cannot express any actual experience with your planning because they were not there.

    Neither did Jesus express an actual experience from before the world was ... it is YOU who makes such unscriptural claim based on whatever YOUR faith belief has as foundation.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In contrast, Scripture says Jesus beside God The Father experienced Glory & Love before the world was created.

    Such an idea is only found in what you read into Scripture due to your faith belief ... it is NOT what Scripture says.

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