A TEXT-BASED discussion of the Trinity

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  • Knowing faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word, my heart prayed to One True God to open my ears to hear the wonders of God followed by listening to the Gospel of Matthew (NLT audio announces Chapter, but not verse)

    Wonder how many people in Matthew's Gospel would describe their experience with Jesus as "God with us" ?

    • Mary's pregnancy (announced by an angel to her as described in Luke)
    • Joseph's angelic visit (along with righteous compassion to not have Mary killed prior to angelic visit)
    • Wise men seeking the one born King of the Jews (Messiah) with star's appearance leading to child. Micah prophecied about Bethlehem (house of bread) being the birth place for a future ruler whose origins are far in the past (time span far beyond human capabilities).
    • Wise men warned in a dream to go home another way (do not return to Herod)
    • John the Baptist proclaiming to prepare the way for the Lord God
    • John the Baptist recognizing his need to be baptized by Jesus
    • John the Baptist seeing the Spirit of God descending like a dove to settle on Jesus along with hearing God speak from heaven. Dispositive for three roles in One God's commUnity of Love (dove, Jesus, & voice are different yet One Being God in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name).
    • The devil left when Jesus told the devil to get out of here (the devil could not disobey command from Jesus)
    • Sermon on the Mount for disciples and crowd, who were amazed at the teaching of Jesus, which had real authority (instead of study results)
    • Leper who was healed after asking Jesus: "Lord, if you are willing, you can heal me and make me clean."
    • Roman Centurion's servant healed from words spoken by Jesus (wow for faith that believed words by Jesus would do God's healing miracle)
    • Peter's mother-in-law having high fever leave her as Jesus touched her hand
    • No demon could disobey verbal command from Jesus, who cast out evil spirits with a single command
    • All the sick people healed by Jesus (fulfilled prophecy: "He took our sicknesses and removed our diseases")
    • Disciples after Jesus commanded a life threatening storm on a lake to become calm (wonder how far away wind stopped blowing ?)
    • Demons asking Jesus: "Have you come here to torture us before God's appointed time ?" (no human has authority to torment demons)
    • Paralyzed man: which is easier ? forgive sins against God OR heal paralyzation ? Jesus knew evil thoughts of Pharisees (God tests hearts). Searching Old Testament text for "son of man" phrase includes Daniel 7:13 (so Jesus identifying as "Son of Man" fulfills divine prophecy)
    • Sick sinners receiving mercy
    • Synagogue leader asking Jesus to bring dead daughter back to life (crowd mocked Jesus, but girl obeyed command of Jesus to live again)
    • Biind people receiving sight
    • Demons cast out (with some Pharisees not wanting to believe who Jesus is, so those Pharisees lied about source of power for Jesus)
    • Twelve apostles sent out with authority to heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons
    • Followers of John the Baptist who heard & saw: the blind see, the lame walk, those with leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is being preached to the poor. "God blesses those who do not fall away because of me (Jesus)."
    • All who come to Jesus with childlike faith to truly experience God
    • All who choose the gentle yoke of Jesus for Godly teaching and rest (including those who are weary and carry heavy burdens)
    • . . . in chapter 12 and following


    @Bill_Coley Matthew 4.1-11

    @Bill_Coley I think this is a critical passage in the divinity of Jesus debate.

    @Bill_Coley The Spirit leads Jesus into the wilderness. After 40 days, a period of temptation commences with the first of two challenges from the devil that ask Jesus to prove that he is the Son of God. Jesus responds with an affirmation of his dependence on God's word, not physical bread.

    If Jesus is not God, the first temptation by the devil "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread." is ludicrous because humans lack verbal authority to tell stones to become something else: e.g. bread, gold, ... To be sinless over entire life meant no tongue slips (includes presence near sinners using sick words). Personally do not know any humans with perfect thought/word control (do desire change in me to become Holy as God is Holy so all my words and deeds glorify God). Deuteronomy 8:3 (NLT) includes: "... people do not live by bread alone; rather, we live by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD." If Jesus is God, then all His Words need perfect intimate alignment with God's Will (The Father) so every human can truly live on every word from the LORD. How powerful are the Word(s) of Jesus ? God speaking ?

    @Bill_Coley The devil does not ask Jesus to prove himself to be God; he asks him to prove himself to be God's son. Hence, the devil doesn't seem to think Jesus is God. (NOT dispositive by any means! But another piece of evidence to collect.)

    The devil tried using pride as part of temptation. The devil remembered Jesus at age twelve declaring my Father's house to be God's Temple (in the presence of some religious teachers whose study results aligned them with the devil since those teachers had failed to guard their own heart relationship with One God while intensely memorizing & studying God's Word with oral interpretations over the years): Luke 2:41-52

    @Bill_Coley How could one who believed himself to be God think that his own actions could test God?

    In One God's commUnity of Love, each voice has free will choice to Truly Love each other while being One God in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name.

    @Bill_Coley By definition, one who believed himself to be God could NOT have a God he or she would feel commanded to worship.

    Our definitions of God are different. To me, One God has Three Voices (Roles) while Being Unified in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name (so Jesus quoting scripture to worship One God included Jesus Being in One God). Note: the word "person" does not describe God well for me because human persons have more distinctions than voice as every human has a body, heart, mind, soul, strength, name. To me, God is one plural unified being.

    Personally amazed by a plural unified God breathing life into dust to create a human in the singular image of a plural God (DNA design included every human) with plans for One Voice (The Word) of God to be inside one descendant for a hybrid combination of human body & The Word (Holy God) eternal spirit = fully human & fully God for a perfect sacrifice to atone for human sin (One God is being more than Jesus, which literally agrees with Greek syntax in John 1:1c where The Word is eternally being God while God is being more than The Word). Amazing human design allows God's Holy Spirit to live inside humans so we can become new creations in One God's commUnity of Love 😍(if we agree with God about our sins, then God is faithful and just to forgive us plus cleanse us from unrighteousness). Thankful we Love God because God first loved us 😍


    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    If Jesus is not God, the first temptation by the devil "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread." is ludicrous because humans lack verbal authority to tell stones to become something else: e.g. bread, gold, ...

    hmn ... just as ludicrous as someone doing something and waters of a sea were parting because humans lack the authority to do so? ... and yet, a human did so! perhaps that human was actually not a real human but God??

    If Jesus is God, then all His Words need perfect intimate alignment with God's Will (The Father) so every human can truly live on every word from the LORD.

    You would have two Gods then according to your logic - Jesus and the Father ....

    The devil tried using pride as part of temptation.

    Since Jesus was thus tempted, he could not have been God because God can't be tempted with pride ....

    In One God's commUnity of Love, each voice has free will choice to Truly Love each other while being One God in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name.

    A dubious statement that is false in several aspects. For starters, God is not a community or union, but a single "person"/Being. God is also not a "voice" or three individual voices. God is not "One God in heart, soul, strength, name".

    Our definitions of God are different. To me, One God has Three Voices (Roles) while Being Unified in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name (so Jesus quoting scripture to worship One God included Jesus Being in One God).

    Indeed. you define God differently from how the Scriptures actually define and describe God.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Welcome back. It's been a while since we've interacted in these forums.

    Some comments about your bullet points reporting outcomes in the Gospel of Matthew. But first, it's important to note that in its original context, Isaiah's word about a child who will be called "Immanuel (which means 'God is with us')" is a sign Isaiah promises to King Ahaz to confirm God's word through the prophet that the invasion of Syria and Israel Ahaz fears "will never happen." (Isaiah 7.7, 10-11) That is, the child to be born will NOT be God, but rather be a sign that God will do what God promises to do (i.e. God is with Ahaz and the people of Judah). If Jesus is the fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy, therefore, then he is the child whose birth proves God will act and God is with people.

    • Mary's pregnancy (announced by an angel to her as described in Luke) -- The angel tells Mary that "the Lord God" will give her child to-be "the throne of his ancestor David," (Luke 1.32) which in my view makes a clear distinction between God - the one who will give the throne - and Jesus - the one who will receive the throne.
    • Joseph's angelic visit (along with righteous compassion to not have Mary killed prior to angelic visit) -- I see no reference in this scene to the possibility that Jesus might be God.
    • Wise men seeking the one born King of the Jews (Messiah) with star's appearance leading to child. Micah prophecied about Bethlehem (house of bread) being the birth place for a future ruler whose origins are far in the past (time span far beyond human capabilities). -- Micah's prophecy is about a child who will come "from" Bethlehem on God's "behalf." (Micah 5.2) The child will grow to "lead his flock with the Lord's strength, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God." (Micah 5.4) Since the prophet says the child to come from Bethlehem will have a God, the prophet clearly must believe the child will not BE God.
    • Wise men warned in a dream to go home another way (do not return to Herod) -- I see no reference in this scene to the possibility that Jesus might be God.
    • John the Baptist proclaiming to prepare the way for the Lord God. -- Luke's description of John's fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy concludes with assurance that once valleys are filled and mountains are made level, "all people will see the salvation sent from God." (Luke 3.6) For Luke, that is, Jesus is "the salvation sent from God." Had Luke believed Jesus WAS God, this was the perfect setting for him to say so, but he doesn't. Instead Luke calls Jesus one who is sent from God, a clear indication that for the Gospel writer Jesus was not God.
    • John the Baptist recognizing his need to be baptized by Jesus. -- I see no reference in this scene to the possibility that Jesus might be God.
    • John the Baptist seeing the Spirit of God descending like a dove to settle on Jesus along with hearing God speak from heaven. Dispositive for three roles in One God's commUnity of Love (dove, Jesus, & voice are different yet One Being God in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name). -- Where in the text do you find support for your claim that Jesus, the Spirit of God (which descends "like a dove," (Matthew 3.16) not necessarily in the form of a dove) and the voice are "three roles in One God's commUnitry of Love"?
    • The devil left when Jesus told the devil to get out of here (the devil could not disobey command from Jesus) -- Where in the text do you find support for your claim that "the devil could not disobey (a) command from Jesus"? In addition, Jesus' directive to Satan to leave introduces what I think is the temptation scene's most compelling evidence that Jesus is NOT God, when Jesus responds to Satan's request for his worship by saying the Scriptures command him (Jesus) to worship and serve only his God. (Matthew 4.10)
    • Sermon on the Mount for disciples and crowd, who were amazed at the teaching of Jesus, which had real authority (instead of study results) -- Authority has a source. In Jesus' case, his authority - to forgive sins (Matthew 9.6) or to do just about anything (John 5.30) - comes from God. There is no indication in any text that Jesus believes his authority comes ex officio, i.e. because he is God.
    • Leper who was healed after asking Jesus: "Lord, if you are willing, you can heal me and make me clean." -- Luke's version of this healing (Luke 5.12-16) reports the event's aftermath. In Luke 5.15 we're told "But despite Jesus’ instructions [not to tell anyone] the report of his power spread even faster, and vast crowds came to hear him preach and to be healed of their diseases." I think it's worth noting that what draws people to Jesus here is a "report of his power" - his healing ability - not his deity. Though this would be a GREAT time for Luke to assert Jesus' deity, he doesn't do so. There is no indication in the text from either the crowd or Luke that Jesus is God. Rather, it seems to me, they see him a man whom God has equipped/empowered to heal.
    • Roman Centurion's servant healed from words spoken by Jesus (wow for faith that believed words by Jesus would do God's healing miracle) -- There is no indication in the text that the centurion believes Jesus is God. More likely, he believes Jesus is a person who has the power to heal.
    • Peter's mother-in-law having high fever leave her as Jesus touched her hand -- A pattern is developing here. Healings do NOT a god make. Jesus is a healer because God gave Jesus the power to heal.
    • No demon could disobey verbal command from Jesus, who cast out evil spirits with a single command. -- There is no indication in the text of any demon removal scene that they believe Jesus is God.
    • All the sick people healed by Jesus (fulfilled prophecy: "He took our sicknesses and removed our diseases") -- Healers aren't necessarily God. Peter and John healed a lame man (Acts 3.1-10) As a result, the man praised God, not Peter and John. Peter raised Dorcas from the dead (Acts 9.36-42) and as a result, "many of them put their faith in the Lord." (Acts 9.42) NOT in Peter. Clearly, the fact that Peter and John healed the sick and raised the dead did NOT mean they were God. It meant God had empowered them to heal. There is every indication in the text that the same is true about Jesus.
    • Disciples after Jesus commanded a life threatening storm on a lake to become calm (wonder how far away wind stopped blowing ?) -- As I noted in one of my text summaries, Jesus' calming of the storm leads them to ask who he is; it does NOT lead them to conclude Jesus is God. (Matthew 8.27)
    • Demons asking Jesus: "Have you come here to torture us before God's appointed time ?" (no human has authority to torment demons) -- Where in the text do you find support for your claim that "no human has authority to torment demons"?... There is nothing in the text to suggest that the demons or the crowd believes Jesus is God.
    • Paralyzed man: which is easier ? forgive sins against God OR heal paralyzation ? Jesus knew evil thoughts of Pharisees (God tests hearts). Searching Old Testament text for "son of man" phrase includes Daniel 7:13 (so Jesus identifying as "Son of Man" fulfills divine prophecy). -- In the text of the Daniel prophecy, "the son of man" is "given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed." In the text of the Daniel narrative, who do you believe gives the son of man his "authority, honor, and sovereignty"? I contend it's God, making a clear distinction between God and the son of man - the same kind of distinction that exists between God and Jesus as the "Son of Man."
    • Sick sinners receiving mercy -- In the beatitudes, Jesus says those who are merciful will be shown mercy. (Matthew 5.7) He obviously believes mercy is something people (humans) can give. Therefore, Jesus can show mercy without being God.
    • Synagogue leader asking Jesus to bring dead daughter back to life (crowd mocked Jesus, but girl obeyed command of Jesus to live again) -- Again, healings do not a god make.
    • Biind people receiving sight -- Ditto.
    • Demons cast out (with some Pharisees not wanting to believe who Jesus is, so those Pharisees lied about source of power for Jesus) -- Demonic removal does not a god make.... There is no indication in the text that the Pharisees believe Jesus is God, or that they are lying (intentionally making false statements) about him.
    • Twelve apostles sent out with authority to heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons -- And the fact that the disciples do great things such as healing the sick does NOT make them god. Jesus gives them authority to heal, just as he (Jesus) has received authority from God to heal.
    • Followers of John the Baptist who heard & saw: the blind see, the lame walk, those with leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is being preached to the poor. "God blesses those who do not fall away because of me (Jesus)." -- Jesus tells disciples of John the Baptist to notice those outcomes as his response to this question from John: "Are you the Messiah we’ve been expecting, or should we keep looking for someone else?” (Matthew 11.3) They don't ask whether Jesus is God - they have no thought that Jesus might be God. They ask whether he's the messiah. Jesus' clear answer is yes, which presents yet another clear distinction between God and Jesus.
    • All who come to Jesus with childlike faith to truly experience God -- In the text, Jesus tells his disciples that in order to enter the Kingdom of God, one must receive it like a child. (Matthew 18.17) The text has nothing to do with coming to Jesus with childlike faith. It has to do with one's response to the Kingdom of God.
    • All who choose the gentle yoke of Jesus for Godly teaching and rest (including those who are weary and carry heavy burdens) -- I see no reference in this scene to the possibility that Jesus might be God.


    I could address the rest of your post, but Wolfgang has issued several valuable comments about those segments, and I've taken a lot of time to create this post as it is, so I'm ending my response. The fact remains you have not shown a single instance where in the text Jesus, his followers, or anyone else declares Jesus to be God.

    I have directly addressed many of your claims. Please address this one of mine (among the many I've made): I contend that Matthew 12.15-21 is a critical passage. In v.16, Jesus warns those he has healed “not to reveal who he was.” In v.17, Matthew tells us of the fulfillment of an Isaianic prophecy (Isaiah 42.1-4) in which the prophet quotes God’s reference to “my Servant, whom I have chosen. He is my beloved, whom I have chosen. He is my Beloved, who pleases me. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations....” That is, for Matthew, Jesus is God’s servant, one God chose and on whom God put God’s spirit (c.f. Matthew 3.16-17) The distinction between God and Jesus here, at least for the Gospel writer, is quite clear. Where in the text do you find reason to dispute my interpretation?

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Our definitions of God are different. To me, One God has Three Voices (Roles) while Being Unified in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name (so Jesus quoting scripture to worship One God included Jesus Being in One God).

    @Wolfgang Indeed. you define God differently from how the Scriptures actually define and describe God.

    Indeed for my definition of God reflecting mixture of singular (s) & plural ℗ nouns, pronouns, and verbs as inspired by God to truly describe God. Hebrew has singular, dual, and plural conjugations. Hence, plural ℗ describes One God having some attribute(s) being a minimum of three. Visible image of God and every human is singular (with amazing array of shapes, sizes, and colors in humans). What is plural ℗ in a unified God ?

    God ℗ said (s): Let us ℗ make ℗ man (s) in our ℗ image (s), according to our ℗ likeness (s) ... so God ℗ created (s) man (s) in his (s) own (s) image (s); he (s) created (s) him (s) in the image (s) of God ℗ (consistent with John 1:1 where The Word was being God while God was being more than The Word).

    Listen Israel, The Lord (s) our God ℗, The Lord (s) is (s) One (s)

    Song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32 includes Elohe God (s) in verses 15 & 17 and Elohim God ℗ in verses 3, 17, 37, and 39. Verses 17 & 37 use elohim ℗ for false gods worshipped by humans, which are worthless.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    If Jesus is God, then all His Words need perfect intimate alignment with God's Will (The Father) so every human can truly live on every word from the LORD.

    @Wolfgang You would have two Gods then according to your logic - Jesus and the Father ....

    My heart loves One God, who is a plural unified being (according to Scripture inspired by God). In some aspects, God is different than a human created in God's image. Created human has limitations that One True God does not: e.g. each human has one voice that is unique to that human.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    The devil tried using pride as part of temptation.

    @Wolfgang Since Jesus was thus tempted, he could not have been God because God can't be tempted with pride ....

    Our spiritual adversary tried every lie for tempting thoughts that results in humans choosing to sin against God. By themself, no human is righteous (all have sinned), which argues against Jesus being only a man. Key point is the devil craftily tried to tempt Jesus (in many incredible ways), but Jesus consistently chose to remain/be holy and sinless (includes human body growth).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    If Jesus is not God, the first temptation by the devil "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread." is ludicrous because humans lack verbal authority to tell stones to become something else: e.g. bread, gold, ...

    @Wolfgang hmn ... just as ludicrous as someone doing something and waters of a sea were parting because humans lack the authority to do so? ... and yet, a human did so! perhaps that human was actually not a real human but God??

    God told Israel where to camp (so Pharoah would pursue with an army). Also God told Moses what to do so God would perform a miracle of changing natural water boundary for a time so Israel could cross over. After Israel walked on dry ground in a canyon of water (and possibly ice), God told Moses what to do so natural water boundary was restored. Chariot wheel spokes are still under water today (underwater land bridge area is large enough to drown a sizable army). Moses Praised God in Exodus 15 for God's mighty power being displayed during deliverance.

    During forty years of Israel living in desert areas, Moses did not command stones to become bread. God provided manna (in the morning dew).

    Google image search for Jebel El Lawz finds altar nearby with golden calf images along with a mountain top that is still dark from being burned.


    @Bill_Coley But first, it's important to note that in its original context, Isaiah's word about a child who will be called "Immanuel (which means 'God is with us')" is a sign Isaiah promises to King Ahaz to confirm God's word through the prophet that the invasion of Syria and Israel Ahaz fears "will never happen." (Isaiah 7.710-11) That is, the child to be born will NOT be God, but rather be a sign that God will do what God promises to do (i.e. God is with Ahaz and the people of Judah). If Jesus is the fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy, therefore, then he is the child whose birth proves God will act and God is with people.

    God plans events. God provides prophecies. God pronounces prophetic fulfillment(s). Concur with original fulfillment (see 2 Kings 16:5ff). God chooses when a prophecy has both contemporary fulfillment (e.g. King Ahaz) and future fulfillment (e.g. Jesus being "God with us").

    How many people mentioned in Gospels & Acts have reason to Praise God for mighty miracles done by God in their presence ("God with us") ? (similar to Moses Praising God in Exodus 15 & Deuteronomy 32 that includes Praise for mighty deeds done by God)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Mary's pregnancy (announced by an angel to her as described in Luke)

    @Bill_Coley The angel tells Mary that "the Lord God" will give her child to-be "the throne of his ancestor David," (Luke 1.32) which in my view makes a clear distinction between God - the one who will give the throne - and Jesus - the one who will receive the throne.

    Where does Scripture text say the one receiving God's throne is not God ? (The Messiah has an everlasting throne, which infers Messiah => God)

    Asserted view has an assumption about God that does not match God using singular & plural nouns, pronouns, and verbs to truly describe God. Visible image of God and every human is singular (with amazing array of shapes, sizes, and colors in humans). What is plural ℗ in a unified God ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Joseph's angelic visit (along with righteous compassion to not have Mary killed prior to angelic visit)

    @Bill_Coley I see no reference in this scene to the possibility that Jesus might be God.

    Child in me simply believes God's angelic messages to Mary & Joseph. Physical father of Jesus is God (so phrase "Son of God" is literally true). Adult in me is amazed at God's creative design of humans that has a way for conception of Jesus to be done by God fertilizing egg inside Mary.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Wise men seeking the one born King of the Jews (Messiah) with star's appearance leading to child. Micah prophecied about Bethlehem (house of bread) being the birth place for a future ruler whose origins are far in the past (time span far beyond human capabilities).

    @Bill_Coley Micah's prophecy is about a child who will come "from" Bethlehem on God's "behalf." (Micah 5.2) The child will grow to "lead his flock with the Lord's strength, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God." (Micah 5.4) Since the prophet says the child to come from Bethlehem will have a God, the prophet clearly must believe the child will not BE God.

    Complete Jewish Study Bible has a Messianic Prophecy note about Micah 5:1-2 (clearly different view of prophetic text)

    Where Would Messiah Be Born?

    Micah 5:1–2 The ruler is described as having origins or an existence stretching back to the “days of eternity.” In Proverbs 8:22–23, this phrase is used to describe eternity that precedes the creation of the world. So the messianic one coming out of Beit-Lechem (Bethlehem) has existed for eternity. He is human in his birth but supernatural in his origin. A number of ancient rabbis found the Messiah in this passage also. The famous medieval rabbi David Kimchi wrote in his commentary on the prophets: “Although you are little among the thousands of Y’hudah, out of you shall come forth to me a judge to be a ruler in Isra’el; and this is the king Messiah.”

    The Targum Yerušalmi (Jerusalem Targum) adds: “Out of you Bethlehem shall Messiah go forth before me to exercise dominion over Isra’el; whose name has been spoken from of old, from the days of eternity.” With this Targum Jonathan agrees: “King Messiah is born … from whence is he? He replied, ‘From the royal palace of Bethlehem.’ ” The Talmud also applies this Micah passage to the Messiah (Yoma 10a; Sanhedrin 98b).

    Barry Rubin, ed., The Complete Jewish Study Bible: Notes (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Bibles; Messianic Jewish Publishers & Resources, 2016), 844.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Wonder how many people in Matthew's Gospel would describe their experience with Jesus as "God with us" ?

    @Bill_Coley I have directly addressed many of your claims.

    Notably missing is answer to my "God with us" experience question (appears your study questions were in focus while making your claims). Noted repetition of: "I see no reference in this scene to the possibility that Jesus might be God." and "Again, healings do not a god make."

    @Bill_Coley Please address this one of mine (among the many I've made): I contend that Matthew 12.15-21 is a critical passage. In v.16, Jesus warns those he has healed “not to reveal who he was.” In v.17, Matthew tells us of the fulfillment of an Isaianic prophecy (Isaiah 42.1-4) in which the prophet quotes God’s reference to “my Servant, whom I have chosen. He is my beloved, whom I have chosen. He is my Beloved, who pleases me. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations....” That is, for Matthew, Jesus is God’s servant, one God chose and on whom God put God’s spirit (c.f. Matthew 3.16-17) The distinction between God and Jesus here, at least for the Gospel writer, is quite clear. Where in the text do you find reason to dispute my interpretation?

    Can a son honor his father by serving his father ? (yet still be his son while serving) Luke 15 includes a parable about a foolish son who returned to his father with intent to become a servant (father had different reaction).

    What effect does Jewish culture with Love of G_d's Words have on inspired text in the Gospel of Matthew ? How do Jews handle G_d's Name ?

    Jesus declaring Himself to be "Son of Man" in many passages is Messianic prophetic fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 (eternal King on G_d's throne)

    What did some Jewish religious leaders want to do with Lazarus after Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (as many believed in Jesus as G_d) ?

    Keep Smiling

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    Trinity Passages

     English Standard Version 233 results in 42 verses


     

    Matt 1:20


    But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.


    Matt 3:16


    And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;


    Matt 12:18


    “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.


    Matt 12:28


    But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.


    Matt 22:43


    He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,


    Matt 28:19


    Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


    Luke 1:35


    And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.


    Luke 2:26


    And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.


    Luke 3:22


    and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”


    Luke 10:21


    In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.


    John 1:33


    I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’


    John 3:5


    Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


    John 3:34


    For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.


    John 14:16


    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,


    John 14:26


    But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.


    John 15:26


    “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.


    John 16:15


    All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.


    Acts 1:4


    And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me;


    Acts 2:33


    Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.


    Acts 7:55


    But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.


    Acts 10:38


    how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.


    Rom 1:4


    and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,


    Rom 8:9


    You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.


    Rom 8:11


    If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.


    Rom 15:16


    to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.


    Rom 15:30


    I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,


    1 Cor 6:11


    And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


    1 Cor 12:3


    Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.


    2 Cor 3:3


    And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.


    2 Cor 13:14


    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.


    Gal 4:6


    And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”


    Eph 2:18


    For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.


    Eph 2:22


    In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.


    Phil 3:3


    For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—


    2 Thess 2:13


    But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


    Titus 3:6


    whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,


    Heb 9:14


    how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.


    Heb 10:29


    How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?


    1 Pet 1:2


    according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.


    1 Pet 4:14


    If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.


    1 John 4:2


    By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,


    Rev 2:7


    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’










  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Indeed for my definition of God reflecting mixture of singular (s) & plural ℗ nouns, pronouns, and verbs as inspired by God to truly describe God. Hebrew has singular, dual, and plural conjugations. Hence, plural ℗ describes One God having some attribute(s) being a minimum of three. Visible image of God and every human is singular (with amazing array of shapes, sizes, and colors in humans). What is plural ℗ in a unified God ?

    I suggest a good look at the language situation, in particular at the use of plural Hebrew word elohim in relation to its use in connection with singular or plural verbs. The true God YHWH, Elohim is NOT more than one, not two not three, He is also NOT a group, team, family or unit. The true God, YHWH Elohim is one SINGLE Spirit "person". There is NOTHING plural in the true God !! The use of the plural form of the noun is a linguistic means of semitic languages (such as Hebrew) to indicate that God's supremacy (!) and to that effect the plural noun is used together with a singular verb. Whenever the plural noun Elohim indicates more than one singular being, it is used with plural verb and then is translated as "gods" (plural).

    God ℗ said (s): Let us ℗ make ℗ man (s) in our ℗ image (s), according to our ℗ likeness (s) ... so God ℗ created (s) man (s) in his (s) own (s) image (s); he (s) created (s) him (s) in the image (s) of God ℗ (consistent with John 1:1 where The Word was being God while God was being more than The Word).

    See above ... there were no Two or Three making up "God", but rather only One ...as is clear from the use of the verbs in the singular and the singular pronouns "he", "his".

    Your interpretation of John 1:1 making "The Word" a SECOND God person, is flat out contradicting (and in no way consistent with) what Gen 1 and the rest of the Bible teaches concerning the true God.

    Listen Israel, The Lord (s) our God ℗, The Lord (s) is (s) One (s)

    Your interpretation of this in reality is "The Lord(s) is (s) One (group, unit, family of THREE)

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Indeed for my definition of God reflecting mixture of singular (s) & plural ℗ nouns, pronouns, and verbs as inspired by God to truly describe God. Hebrew has singular, dual, and plural conjugations. Hence, plural ℗ describes One God having some attribute(s) being a minimum of three. Visible image of God and every human is singular (with amazing array of shapes, sizes, and colors in humans). What is plural ℗ in a unified God ?

    @Wolfgang I suggest a good look at the language situation, in particular at the use of plural Hebrew word elohim in relation to its use in connection with singular or plural verbs. The true God YHWH, Elohim is NOT more than one, not two not three, He is also NOT a group, team, family or unit. The true God, YHWH Elohim is one SINGLE Spirit "person". There is NOTHING plural in the true God !! The use of the plural form of the noun is a linguistic means of semitic languages (such as Hebrew) to indicate that God's supremacy (!) and to that effect the plural noun is used together with a singular verb. Whenever the plural noun Elohim indicates more than one singular being, it is used with plural verb and then is translated as "gods" (plural).

    Investigated Hebrew language usage of plural noun elohim: Logos Morph Search root:אֱלֹהִים BEFORE 3 WORDS <LogosMorphHeb ~ V????[^S]???> whose results found several uses of plural noun elohim with plural verb (including Exodus 32 examples of "gods" translation):

    • Genesis 20:13 (ESV) And when God ℗ caused ℗ me to wander ℗ from my father’s house
    • Genesis 35:7 (ESV) ... called the place El-bethel, because there God ℗ had revealed ℗ himself to him when he fled from his brother.
    • Exodus 22:9 (ESV) The one whom God ℗ condemns ℗ shall pay double to his neighbor
    • Exodus 32:1 (ESV) ... people gathered themselves together to Aaron and said to him, “Up, make us gods ℗ who shall go ℗ before us.
    • Job 35:10 (ESV) But none says, ‘Where is God ℗ my Maker ℗, who gives songs in the night, 

    Belief assertion "There is NOTHING plural in the true God !!" plainly contradicts Scripture word inflection and conjugation mixture (of singular and plural) inspired by One God to truly describe God.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    God ℗ said (s): Let us ℗ make ℗ man (s) in our ℗ image (s), according to our ℗ likeness (s) ... so God ℗ created (s) man (s) in his (s) own (s) image (s); he (s) created (s) him (s) in the image (s) of God ℗ (consistent with John 1:1 where The Word was being God while God was being more than The Word).

    @Wolfgang See above ... there were no Two or Three making up "God", but rather only One ...as is clear from the use of the verbs in the singular and the singular pronouns "he", "his".

    Above linguistic means leaves me wondering what is plural in God's supremacy (!) ? => God ℗ said (s): Let us ℗ make ℗ man (s) in our ℗ image (s)

    @Wolfgang Your interpretation of John 1:1 making "The Word" a SECOND God person, is flat out contradicting (and in no way consistent with) what Gen 1 and the rest of the Bible teaches concerning the true God.

    My "interpretation" of John 1:1 is literal application of Koine Greek grammar rules about definite article usage with verb εἰμί (to be). When subject and predicate nouns have definite article, then both nouns are completely equal (interchangeable). When one noun has definite article and other noun does not, then noun without article (anarthrous) describes (qualifies) definite noun. John 1:1 ends with phrase "θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" that can be literally translated: "God was The Word" or "God was being The Word". Definite article specifically identifies ὁ λόγος (The Word) while θεὸς (God) describes quality of The Word. Verb ἦν is imperfect tense of εἰμί, which is continous action in past time (was being).

    Another Koine Greek grammar example is "Ὁ θεὸς ἀγάπη ἐστίν" with stilted literal translation of "The God Love is being" in 1 John 4:16 where definite article identifies Ὁ θεὸς (The God) while ἀγάπη (Love) describes quality of The God. Verb ἐστίν is present tense of εἰμί, which is continous action in present time (is being). Hence, all of Love is being The God while The God is being more than Love.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Listen Israel, The Lord (s) our God ℗, The Lord (s) is (s) One (s)

    @Wolfgang Your interpretation of this in reality is "The Lord(s) is (s) One (group, unit, family of THREE)

    Thankful for One God's commUnity of Love 😍where Three Voices choose to Love each other while Being Unified in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name. Personally not like terms with implied human limitations to describe One God, who is much more (greater) than one human individual. While humanly unable to be in more than one place at one time, God is able. Human can be a child, spouse, and parent (albeit typically one role at a time, which is different than One God being an ongoing commUnity of Love with Three Voices always active/interactive).

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    Thankful for One God's commUnity of Love 😍where Three Voices choose to Love each other while Being Unified in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name.

    I contend that the Biblical Scriptures reveal and teach that the true God is one singular Spirit being. You contend that God is not one singular Spirit being but a "commUnity" of THREE different kinds of beings.

    The question is: Whose understanding is the true understanding of the Biblical revelation? Is God One or is God THREE (somehow united) ?

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    God plans events. God provides prophecies. God pronounces prophetic fulfillment(s). Concur with original fulfillment (see 2 Kings 16:5ff). God chooses when a prophecy has both contemporary fulfillment (e.g. King Ahaz) and future fulfillment (e.g. Jesus being "God with us").

    How many people mentioned in Gospels & Acts have reason to Praise God for mighty miracles done by God in their presence ("God with us") ? (similar to Moses Praising God in Exodus 15 & Deuteronomy 32 that includes Praise for mighty deeds done by God)

    To my reading of it, your response here does not at all engage my central point to which it purports to respond: That in Isaiah 7 the child to be born is NOT God, but rather a sign that God will do what the prophet predicts, that God is with Ahaz and his nation. If Jesus is the fulfillment of THAT prophecy, then Jesus is a sign that God will act, that God is with people. According to the prophecy, it is NOT a sign that Jesus is God.



    Where does Scripture text say the one receiving God's throne is not God ? (The Messiah has an everlasting throne, which infers Messiah => God)

    I don't understand your insistence that Scripture texts definitively rule out options. No text directly says the one receiving the throne is not God because that option never occurs to the Gospel writer! Do you insist that Gospel writers must rule out EVERY possible option, otherwise each of those options is true, or likely true, or certainly possibly true? So if a text doesn't explicitly say Jesus didn't walk with a limp, he must have walked with a limp?

    Examine the Luke 1.31-37 text. The humanity of the child to be born and the distinction between the child and the "Lord God" who will give him the throne are obvious throughout (emphasis added):

    You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!”  34 Mary asked the angel, “But how can this happen? I am a virgin.” 35 The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God. 36 What’s more, your relative Elizabeth has become pregnant in her old age! People used to say she was barren, but she has conceived a son and is now in her sixth month. 37 For the word of God will never fail.” 

    That's a description of a human son who will be born to Mary by the power of "the Lord God" who will give that son a throne, a son who "will be called" the Son of God, a human son who will be holy NOT because he's God, but because the Holy Spirit and "the power of the Most High" overshadowed his mother.


    Asserted view has an assumption about God that does not match God using singular & plural nouns, pronouns, and verbs to truly describe God. Visible image of God and every human is singular (with amazing array of shapes, sizes, and colors in humans). What is plural ℗ in a unified God ?

    My asserted view matches the biblical text, something I contend your vision of a "plural unified God" does not and cannot do. There is nothing plural in a God who is one.


    Child in me simply believes God's angelic messages to Mary & Joseph. Physical father of Jesus is God (so phrase "Son of God" is literally true). Adult in me is amazed at God's creative design of humans that has a way for conception of Jesus to be done by God fertilizing egg inside Mary.

    I fail to see the relevance of these comments. My point was that I see nothing in the Joseph visitation story that suggests Jesus was God. Your comments make no mention of the story. So I ask, where in the text of the Joseph visitation story do you find support for your claim that Jesus was God?


    Complete Jewish Study Bible has a Messianic Prophecy note about Micah 5:1-2 (clearly different view of prophetic text)

    I disagree with the Study Bible's interpretation of Micah 5.1-2, and so does the ESV translation, which reads v.2 as saying it is the leader's "coming forth" that is of old, not the leader himself. The text does NOT say the leader to come has been around a long time (an observation about the passage supported by most translations, by the way, which make no reference to "eternity") It says the leader's coming, the promise of his arrival, has been around for a long time.

    Neither does the text say the leader will be "human in his birth but supernatural in his origin." You and the Study Bible are welcome to read that into the text, but the text simply doesn't say it.


    Notably missing is answer to my "God with us" experience question (appears your study questions were in focus while making your claims). Noted repetition of: "I see no reference in this scene to the possibility that Jesus might be God." and "Again, healings do not a god make."

    I didn't respond to your "God with us" question because it sounded rhetorical to me. How can we even guess how many people described their time with Jesus via the words "God with us," or what those who experienced him that way meant when they employed that phrase?

    What we DO know about Jesus from Matthew's Gospel is this:

    • A man with leprosy told Jesus that if he was willing, he could heal and make him clean (Matthew 8.2)
    • A Roman officer said Jesus could heal his servant if he (Jesus) simply spoke the word. (Matthew 8.8)
    • After Jesus stilled a storm and angry waters, his disciples asked "Who is this man" whom "even the winds and waves obey"? (Matthew 8.27)
    • Pharisees said he was "empowered by the prince of demons." (Matthew 9.34)
    • Matthew the Gospel writer said Jesus was the fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy of God's chosen "servant" on whom God put God's "Spirit." (Matthew 12.18)
    • Peter said Jesus was "the Messiah, the Son of the Living God" (Matthew 16.16)
    • Followers of the Pharisees said Jesus was "honest," that he taught "the way of God truthfully," and was "impartial." (Matthew 22.16)

    NO ONE, not even Jesus himself, said Jesus is God.

    [And FWIW: If it matters to you that we respond to each other's questions in our posts, then I invite you to return to my previous response to you - HERE - where you will find three "where in the text" questions that your latest post did not respond to.]


    Can a son honor his father by serving his father ? (yet still be his son while serving) Luke 15 includes a parable about a foolish son who returned to his father with intent to become a servant (father had different reaction).

    The issue of the Matthew 12 text is not whether as God's chosen servant Jesus honored God. The issue is whether Jesus as one Matthew identifies as God's chosen servant can also be God. I contend there is nothing in the Matthew 12 text to suggest Matthew believes Jesus is God - in fact, the most obvious meaning of Matthew's use of the Isaianic prophecy is that he believes Jesus is NOT God. Where in the Matthew 12 text do you find support for an interpretation different from that?


    What effect does Jewish culture with Love of G_d's Words have on inspired text in the Gospel of Matthew ? How do Jews handle G_d's Name ?

    I am not equipped to assess the impact of Jewish culture or a "Love of G_d's Words." I am equipped, however, to assess the meaning of the Matthew 12 text, which your response here does not do.


    Jesus declaring Himself to be "Son of Man" in many passages is Messianic prophetic fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 (eternal King on G_d's throne)

    Here are the two verses from Daniel:

    13 As my vision continued that night, I saw someone like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

    In those verses, the one who is "like a son of man" approaches and is led into the presence of God ("the Ancient One") where he is given authority, honor, and sovereignty. One who was God in such a scene would not have to be given authority! He or she would already have it. More, the text says people obey this "son of man," NOT because he is God, but because he had been given authority et al.


    What did some Jewish religious leaders want to do with Lazarus after Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (as many believed in Jesus as G_d) ?

    John 12.11 does NOT say the Pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus because his rise from the dead caused people to believe in "Jesus as God." It says only that because of Lazarus' rise from the dead, people "believed in Jesus." You're welcome to read words into the verse, but the verse itself does not support your doing so.


    And it remains true that in all of our exchanges you have yet to provide a single text in which Jesus, one of his followers, a member of his audiences, or a Bible writer says Jesus is God. There's a very good reason for that, of course: None of them ever does so.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Dave_L posted:

    Trinity Passages...

    Matt 1:20: Explains the origins of Mary's pregnancy; does NOT declare Jesus' divinity.

    Matt 3:16: The fact God's spirit came to rest on Jesus - i.e. wasn't already embodied in him - is a strong suggestion that Jesus is not 0the God whose spirit came upon.

    Matt 12:18: This is Matthew's employment of a prophecy from Isaiah 42.1-4 in which the servant is clearly NOT God, but rather one God chooses and on whom God puts God's spirit.

    Matt 12:28: Jesus says it is by God's spirit, NOT his own, that he casts out demons. (c.f. John 5,19,30)

    Matt 22:43: This is a curious scene, in part because of the uncertainty surrounding the origins and intentions of Psalm 110, from which Jesus quotes. At best, however, Jesus speaks here of his role as Messiah, not of his possible deity. In addition, at other times in the Gospels Jesus raises no objection to being called "the Son of David" (e.g. Matthew 12.22-37; Matthew 15.21-28; Matthew 20.30-34)

    Matt 28:19: The complex and uncertain textual history of this verse has been much discussed in these forums. The verse is very likely a late addition to the Gospel.

    Luke 1:35: The angel predicts that Jesus will be called the Son of God, not God.

    Luke 2:26: Here Luke calls Jesus "the Lord's Christ/Messiah," which means God's Messiah, the anointed one of God - exactly the role Jesus claimed for himself, and Matthew the Gospel writer assigned to Jesus in Matthew 12.17-21.

    Luke 3:22: There is no indication in this scene that the voice declares Jesus to be God, or that the Holy Spirit is part of a Godhead.

    Luke 10:21: Again, there is no indication that Jesus sees himself as God or as part of a Godhead. In fact, in Luke 10.22 Jesus reports his subservient role to God when he says his Father has "entrusted everything" to him.

    John 1:33: That Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit is not an indication of deity any more than Peter and John's laying on of hands among believers in Samaria indicated they were God when after their action, the believers received the Holy Spirit. (Acts 8.14-21). In the scene, Peter calls the Holy Spirit a gift from God.

    John 3:5: I see no indication in these scene that Jesus believes himself to be part of a Godhead.

    John 3:34: Jesus declares himself to have been sent by God, which is exactly what I have repeatedly claimed about Jesus in my responses in these threads. One who is sent must have been sent by someone or something different from him- or herself. Here Jesus tells us God sent him, which means he believes himself to be distinct from God.

    John 14:16: I see no indication in this verse that Jesus understands himself as co-equal or part of a larger Godhead with the Father or the Helper to which he refers. Neither do I see an indication in this text that the Helper is co-equal with the Father. Rather, for Jesus here the Helper is one the Father will send, just as he believes the Father has sent/called him.

    John 14:26: See previous response.

    John 15:26: See previous response.

    John 16:15: At not time in the scene of which this verse is a part does Jesus talk about God ("the Father") in a way that suggests co-equality. In fact, he says multiple times that he came from God (John 16.27-28). In John 16.23 Jesus tells his followers that soon they won't have to ask him for anything because they will be able to "ask the Father directly." If Jesus believed himself to be God, then why would he tell his followers to ask God directly, and not direct their prayers to himself?

    Acts 1:4: I see no suggestion of co-equality or membership in a Godhead.

    Acts 2:33: As resurrected and exalted Lord, Jesus has the authority to deliver (pour out) the Holy Spirit. This is an expected result, given John 16.7. Still, however, no indication of parity or equality with God.

    Acts 7:55: Jesus stands next to God. A clear distinction between the two.

    Acts 10:38: God anointed Jesus of Nazareth (notice the place designation, adding to Peter's report of Jesus' humanity). Another clear distinction between the two.

    Rom 1:4: Jesus declared "Son of God" by his resurrection, which of course was accomplished by God. Again, I see no suggestion of co-equality or membership in a Godhead.

    Rom 8:9: In Romans 8.10, Paul says Christ lives within us, hence, I gather, the reference to the "Spirit of Christ." In Romans 8.11 Paul says the Spirit of God "raised Jesus from the dead," and it is the Spirit of God - who in context is clearly not Christ - who dominates the section of Romans.

    Rom 8:11: The one who raised Jesus from the dead will give you life. Another clear distinction between God and Jesus.

    Rom 15:16: Mention of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, but not expression of equality between them.

    Rom 15:30: See previous response.

    1 Cor 6:11: See previous response.

    1 Cor 12:3: See previous response.

    2 Cor 3:3: This verse is not a surprise - "God was in Christ. reconciling the world to himself...." (2 Corinthians 5.19) - neither is it evidence of a Godhead.

    2 Cor 13:14: Mention of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, but not expression of equality between them. Paul's other works, including his Corinthian letters, make clear his belief that Jesus was not God.

    Gal 4:6: Mention of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, but not expression of equality between them. In fact, this verse makes a clear distinction between God and the Son (Jesus).

    Eph 2:18: "Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death." (Ephesians 2.16) Christ reconciled us to God. A clear distinction between the two.

    Eph 2:22: Mention of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, but not expression of equality between them. The exalted Lord is the means by which we are made part of God's dwelling place, which seems to draw a clear distinction between the two.

    Phil 3:3: Mention of Jesus and the Spirit, but no suggestion of equality.

    2 Thess 2:13: A clear distinction between God and Jesus (the Lord).

    Titus 3:6: God granted access to the Spirit through Jesus. Another clear distinction between the two of them.

    Heb 9:14: Through his sacrifice, Jesus frees us to serve God. A clear distinction between the two.

    Heb 10:29: Mention of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, but not expression of equality between them..

    1 Pet 1:2: Mention of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, but not expression of equality between them.

    1 Pet 4:14: Mention of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, but not expression of equality between them.

    1 John 4:2: Mention of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit, but not expression of equality between them.

    Rev 2:7: Jesus speaks as the risen and exalted Lord, but does NOT claim membership in a Godhead.


    I have here responded to each of the 42 texts you cited, Dave. The common theme in my responses is that mere mention of God, Jesus, and the the Holy Spirit in the same verse/passage does not identify or define a Godhead. At no place does Jesus claim to be God or part of a Godhead. He claims to be the Messiah, the Son of God, one sent by God, a description with which Peter, Paul, and the Gospel writers agree.


    Now that I have engaged all of your texts, please engage mine. Not 42 passages, but just two - these two, both from the mouth and faith of the Apostle Peter:

    Acts 4.10: Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead.


    Acts 2.32-36: 32 “God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this. 33 Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today. 34 For David himself never ascended into heaven, yet he said, ‘The LORD said to my Lord, “Sit in the place of honor at my right hand  35 until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet.” ’ 36 “So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!” 


    What do these specific passages tell us about Peter's view of the relationship between Jesus and God?

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Thankful for One God's commUnity of Love 😍where Three Voices choose to Love each other while Being Unified in Heart, Soul, Strength, Name.

    @Wolfgang I contend that the Biblical Scriptures reveal and teach that the true God is one singular Spirit being. You contend that God is not one singular Spirit being but a "commUnity" of THREE different kinds of beings.

    To me, Three distinct Voices (Roles) Unified within One Spirit Being (commUnity of Love) is different than "kinds of beings". Thankful for Psalm 119:18 so can prayerfully ask One God to: "Open my eyes so I can behold wondrous things from Your Torah (Teaching)"

    @Wolfgang The question is: Whose understanding is the true understanding of the Biblical revelation? Is God One or is God THREE (somehow united) ?

    Most important question for every human is: How have you chosen to do God's Will ? God will judge every human based on actions expressing that human's heart choice of their primary Love (Ezekiel 18 agrees with Revelation 20). Human choosing to Love One True God with everything results in doing God's Will: faith without works (love actions) is dead.

    On earth, Jesus was a traveling Jewish Rabbi who knew Hebrew reading of YHVH ( יהוה ) is enunciated as a-do-NAI (Lord). Only the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) enunciated YHVH ( יהוה ) correctly in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Jesus also knew 6,358 YHVH ( יהוה ) in Hebrew were translated into Greek LXX as kurios (Lord) 6,040 and theos (God) 318 times. Hence, Jesus speaking with God's authority in Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV) reads to me as: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה ), Lord ( יהוה ),’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father ( יהוה ) who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה ), Lord ( יהוה ), did we not prophesy in your name ( יהוה ), and cast out demons in your name ( יהוה ), and do many mighty works in your name ( יהוה ) ?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    When Jesus judges humans by saying: "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." where do those people go ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    God plans events. God provides prophecies. God pronounces prophetic fulfillment(s). Concur with original fulfillment (see 2 Kings 16:5ff). God chooses when a prophecy has both contemporary fulfillment (e.g. King Ahaz) and future fulfillment (e.g. Jesus being "God with us").

    How many people mentioned in Gospels & Acts have reason to Praise God for mighty miracles done by God in their presence ("God with us") ? (similar to Moses Praising God in Exodus 15 & Deuteronomy 32 that includes Praise for mighty deeds done by God)

    @Bill_Coley To my reading of it, your response here does not at all engage my central point to which it purports to respond: That in Isaiah 7 the child to be born is NOT God, but rather a sign that God will do what the prophet predicts, that God is with Ahaz and his nation.

    Central point was engaged. God's prophecy given to Isaiah had comptemporary fulfillment experienced by King Ahaz and future experience of "God with us" by multitude of people encountering Jesus (personally or via His disciples). During the time of King Ahaz and Isaiah, the child born had human father and human mother (almah was a young woman like Isaiah's wife mentioned in Isaiah 8 => "God with us" in a national sense). Gospels describe Jesus being conceived by God's Holy Spirit (not a human father) inside Mary (so almah in this context is a virgin young woman).

    @Bill_Coley If Jesus is the fulfillment of THAT prophecy, then Jesus is a sign that God will act, that God is with people. According to the prophecy, it is NOT a sign that Jesus is God.

    "According to" assertion reflects faith belief. Isaiah 7 prophecy declares "God with us" that has dual fulfillments: one child was a national sign (with human mother and human father) while Jesus had a human mother and physically God for His father (fulfilled Psalm 2:7 prophecy "today").

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Where does Scripture text say the one receiving God's throne is not God ? (The Messiah has an everlasting throne, which infers Messiah => God)

    @Bill_Coley I don't understand your insistence that Scripture texts definitively rule out options. No text directly says the one receiving the throne is not God because that option never occurs to the Gospel writer! 

    The "because" assertion reads to me as a rationalization of faith belief, which is projected onto Gospel writers (while lacking scripture support).

    @Bill_Coley Do you insist that Gospel writers must rule out EVERY possible option, otherwise each of those options is true, or likely true, or certainly possibly true? So if a text doesn't explicitly say Jesus didn't walk with a limp, he must have walked with a limp?

    Does your question fit your TEXT-BASED discussion guidelines ? (question distracts from discussion about who Jesus was, is, and is coming)

    @Bill_Coley Examine the Luke 1.31-37 text. The humanity of the child to be born and the distinction between the child and the "Lord God" who will give him the throne are obvious throughout (emphasis added):

    You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!” 34 Mary asked the angel, “But how can this happen? I am a virgin.” 35 The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God. 36 What’s more, your relative Elizabeth has become pregnant in her old age! People used to say she was barren, but she has conceived a son and is now in her sixth month. 37 For the word of God will never fail.” 

    That's a description of a human son who will be born to Mary by the power of "the Lord God" who will give that son a throne, a son who "will be called" the Son of God, a human son who will be holy NOT because he's God, but because the Holy Spirit and "the power of the Most High" overshadowed his mother.

    Reign ... forever & Kingdom never end => God. To me, Luke 1:36 describes Holy conception inside Mary (where God fertilized a human egg so God is physically the Father of Jesus so "the Son of God" is literally True).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Asserted view has an assumption about God that does not match God using singular & plural nouns, pronouns, and verbs to truly describe God. Visible image of God and every human is singular (with amazing array of shapes, sizes, and colors in humans). What is plural ℗ in a unified God ?

    @Bill_Coley My asserted view matches the biblical text, something I contend your vision of a "plural unified God" does not and cannot do. There is nothing plural in a God who is one.

    Biblical text has plural ℗ & singular words: e.g. Genesis 1:26 (NLT) Then God ℗ said, “Let us ℗ make human beings in our ℗ image, to be like us ℗.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Child in me simply believes God's angelic messages to Mary & Joseph. Physical father of Jesus is God (so phrase "Son of God" is literally true). Adult in me is amazed at God's creative design of humans that has a way for conception of Jesus to be done by God fertilizing egg inside Mary.

    @Bill_Coley I fail to see the relevance of these comments. My point was that I see nothing in the Joseph visitation story that suggests Jesus was God. Your comments make no mention of the story. So I ask, where in the text of the Joseph visitation story do you find support for your claim that Jesus was God?

    Matthew 1:20-21 (NLT) the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Complete Jewish Study Bible has a Messianic Prophecy note about Micah 5:1-2 (clearly different view of prophetic text)

    @Bill_Coley I disagree with the Study Bible's interpretation of Micah 5.1-2, and so does the ESV translation, which reads v.2 as saying it is the leader's "coming forth" that is of old, not the leader himself. The text does NOT say the leader to come has been around a long time (an observation about the passage supported by most translations, by the way, which make no reference to "eternity") It says the leader's coming, the promise of his arrival, has been around for a long time.

    Neither does the text say the leader will be "human in his birth but supernatural in his origin." You and the Study Bible are welcome to read that into the text, but the text simply doesn't say it.

    Suggest studying Hebrew word: עֹולָם ʿôlām eternity (translated as ancient in ESV)

    The Israel Bible (published by Israel365) includes a note about Micha / Micah 5:1

    And you, O Beit Lechem of Efrat At the beginning of chapter 5, a young child appears who will lead the people to victory. He is born in Beit Lechem of Efrat in Yehuda. The city of Beit Lechem, which means 'House of Bread,' sits five miles south of Yerushalayim. In this verse, Efrat is either another name for Beit Lechem or refers to the larger district in which it is found. The present day city of Efrat was established in 1983, adjacent to the Beit Lechem, and is home to over 8,000 residents. Micha writes that Beit Lechem is in Yehuda, to distinguish it from another city called Beit Lechem in the north of the country in the territory of Zevulun (Joshua 19:15). The young one is described as "Least among the clans of Yehuda," but nevertheless, "he will deliver us from Assyria" (verse 5). Micha's allusion to King David, the youngest of all his brothers who nevertheless brought salvation from Israel's enemies, is unmistakeable. Indeed, this young lad will be a descendant of King David, son of "Yishai of Beit Lechem" (I Samuel 16:1).

    Jesus is God's Bread of Life (The Word) who was born in the House of Bread. The Word (God) existed before ancient days.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Notably missing is answer to my "God with us" experience question (appears your study questions were in focus while making your claims). Noted repetition of: "I see no reference in this scene to the possibility that Jesus might be God." and "Again, healings do not a god make."

    @Bill_Coley I didn't respond to your "God with us" question because it sounded rhetorical to me. How can we even guess how many people described their time with Jesus via the words "God with us," or what those who experienced him that way meant when they employed that phrase?

    Magnitude of the multitude who experienced Jesus being "God with us" lacks documentation (John 20:24-25). Concur literal "God with us" prophecy fulfillment question feels rhetorical, which indicates obvious Truth.

    @Bill_Coley What we DO know about Jesus from Matthew's Gospel is this:

    A man with leprosy told Jesus that if he was willing, he could heal and make him clean (Matthew 8.2)

    A Roman officer said Jesus could heal his servant if he (Jesus) simply spoke the word. (Matthew 8.8)

    After Jesus stilled a storm and angry waters, his disciples asked "Who is this man" whom "even the winds and waves obey"? (Matthew 8.27)

    Pharisees said he was "empowered by the prince of demons." (Matthew 9.34)

    Matthew the Gospel writer said Jesus was the fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy of God's chosen "servant" on whom God put God's "Spirit." (Matthew 12.18)

    Peter said Jesus was "the Messiah, the Son of the Living God" (Matthew 16.16)

    Followers of the Pharisees said Jesus was "honest," that he taught "the way of God truthfully," and was "impartial." (Matthew 22.16)

    Notably missing are many people in Matthew who experienced Jesus being "God with us" so knowledge about Jesus is substantially more. This short list shows Jesus being "God with us" by words and actions that did God's Will. Notably missing is Jesus knowing human heart thoughts (attribute of God) followed by responding to those thoughts. Humans lack ability to read another human's mind.

    @Bill_Coley NO ONE, not even Jesus himself, said Jesus is God.

    Restating an unanswered question: What is the Jewish legal basis for "Blasphemy" judgement ? What did the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) clearly interpret as cursing God in the words spoken by Jesus in Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Luke 22:67-70 ? (so Jesus deserved to die)

    @Bill_Coley [And FWIW: If it matters to you that we respond to each other's questions in our posts, then I invite you to return to my previous response to you - HERE - where you will find three "where in the text" questions that your latest post did not respond to.]

    Appears three "where in the text" are faith belief assesrtions phrased as questions (our understanding of Scripture is filtered by our faith beliefs). To me, One True God never lies so entire Bible is a coherent Love story, which has three Voices in One God (with every voice being heard & obeyed by humans in various scripture passages). Since a plural unified God does not lie, my faith does not have to choose between verses.

    Human disciples of Jesus were not able to cast all demons, but commands by Jesus to demons and devil were always obeyed (be quiet, leave, ...).

    Hebrews 10:26-31 (NLT) For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Can a son honor his father by serving his father ? (yet still be his son while serving) Luke 15 includes a parable about a foolish son who returned to his father with intent to become a servant (father had different reaction).

    @Bill_Coley The issue of the Matthew 12 text is not whether as God's chosen servant Jesus honored God. The issue is whether Jesus as one Matthew identifies as God's chosen servant can also be God. I contend there is nothing in the Matthew 12 text to suggest Matthew believes Jesus is God - in fact, the most obvious meaning of Matthew's use of the Isaianic prophecy is that he believes Jesus is NOT God. Where in the Matthew 12 text do you find support for an interpretation different from that?

    Fulfillment of Messianic prophecy that includes "And his name will be the hope of all the world." (God provides hope for every human in Jesus)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    What effect does Jewish culture with Love of G_d's Words have on inspired text in the Gospel of Matthew ? How do Jews handle G_d's Name ?

    @Bill_Coley I am not equipped to assess the impact of Jewish culture or a "Love of G_d's Words." I am equipped, however, to assess the meaning of the Matthew 12 text, which your response here does not do.

    Evading question "How do Jews handle G_d's Name ?" asserts lack of qualification to understand G_d expressions written by a Jewish author. Matthew begins Gospel with Jewish genealogy that includes numerical value of King David's name. Every Hebrew letter has a number value. King David's name is three Hebrew letters: DVD. Dalet (D) has a value of 4. Vav (V) has a value of 6. Hence, King David's name has a numerical value of 14 = 4 (D) + 6 (V) + 4 (D) so Matthew has three sets of 14 generations in Matthew 1:1-18

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jesus declaring Himself to be "Son of Man" in many passages is Messianic prophetic fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 (eternal King on G_d's throne)

    @Bill_Coley Here are the two verses from Daniel:

    13 As my vision continued that night, I saw someone like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient One and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal—it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

    @Bill_Coley In those verses, the one who is "like a son of man" approaches and is led into the presence of God ("the Ancient One") where he is given authority, honor, and sovereignty. One who was God in such a scene would not have to be given authority! He or she would already have it. More, the text says people obey this "son of man," NOT because he is God, but because he had been given authority et al.

    Humanly not know what authority The Word (God) chose to humbly leave in heaven before taking on human flesh (knowing human flesh would become Holy sacrifice for all human sin so did not want authority being claimed by satan). Thankful for Philippians 2:1-11 and Hebrews chapter 1.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    What did some Jewish religious leaders want to do with Lazarus after Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (as many believed in Jesus as G_d) ?

    @Bill_Coley John 12.11 does NOT say the Pharisees wanted to kill Lazarus because his rise from the dead caused people to believe in "Jesus as God." It says only that because of Lazarus' rise from the dead, people "believed in Jesus." You're welcome to read words into the verse, but the verse itself does not support your doing so.

    If Jesus is not God, then what could people be believing while Praising God for Lazarus being alive ? God raises people from the dead. To me, believing in Jesus includes belief in God (who has power over death), which is consistent with Scripture passsages.

    @Bill_Coley And it remains true that in all of our exchanges you have yet to provide a single text in which Jesus, one of his followers, a member of his audiences, or a Bible writer says Jesus is God. There's a very good reason for that, of course: None of them ever does so.

    Fascinating personal faith belief assertion (humanly unconvinced by exchanges to change faith belief about Jesus) in A TEXT-BASED discussion.

    Most important question for every human is: How have you chosen to do God's Will ? God will judge every human based on actions expressing that human's heart choice of their primary Love (Ezekiel 18 agrees with Revelation 20). Human choosing to Love One True God with everything results in doing God's Will: faith without works (love actions) is dead.

    On earth, Jesus was a traveling Jewish Rabbi who knew Hebrew reading of YHVH ( יהוה ) is enunciated as a-do-NAI (Lord). Only the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) enunciated YHVH ( יהוה ) correctly in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Jesus also knew 6,358 YHVH ( יהוה ) in Hebrew were translated into Greek LXX as kurios (Lord) 6,040 and theos (God) 318 times. Hence, Jesus speaking with God's authority in Matthew 7:21-23 (NLT) reads to me as: “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה )! Lord ( יהוה )!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father ( יהוה ) in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה )! Lord ( יהוה )! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name ( יהוה ) .’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ 

    When Jesus judges humans by saying: "I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws." where do those people go ?

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Wolfgang I contend that the Biblical Scriptures reveal and teach that the true God is one singular Spirit being. You contend that God is not one singular Spirit being but a "comUnity" of THREE different kinds of beings.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus To me, Three distinct Voices (Roles) Unified within One Spirit Being (commUnity of Love) is different than "kinds of beings".

    Ha ha ha ... There is no such thing as "three distinct Voices (Roles) within One Spirit Being" in Scripture. Also, Jesus was not "one of three distinct Roles of a Spirit Being ... he was a human being of flesh and blood and born of a woman (cp Gal 4:4; Heb 2:14) ...

    Frankly, I don't care what things are "to me" (or "to you" or "to someone else") ... I do care what the TEXT STATES when properly read instead of interpreted via "too me" theological glasses.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Central point was engaged. God's prophecy given to Isaiah had comptemporary fulfillment experienced by King Ahaz and future experience of "God with us" by multitude of people encountering Jesus (personally or via His disciples).

    I disagree that your response engaged my central point, which was rooted in the fact that in Isaiah 7, the child to be born is NOT God, but rather a sign that God will do what the prophet predicts, and that God is with Ahaz and his nation. If Jesus is the fulfillment of THAT prophecy, then by logical necessity, Jesus was NOT God, but rather a sign that God is with people. It is THAT central point, in my view, your response didn't engage.


    "According to" assertion reflects faith belief. Isaiah 7 prophecy declares "God with us" that has dual fulfillments: one child was a national sign (with human mother and human father) while Jesus had a human mother and physically God for His father (fulfilled Psalm 2:7 prophecy "today").

    It's not an assertion of my faith when I say according to the Isaiah 7 prophecy, the child to be born is a sign, not God. It's an assertion of my exegetical method, yes, but not my faith. My claim to which you refer here had NOTHING to do with the New Testament, but was specifically and solely about the Isaiah 7 prophecy.


    The "because" assertion reads to me as a rationalization of faith belief, which is projected onto Gospel writers (while lacking scripture support).

    This doesn't help me understand your apparent insistence that Gospel writers explicitly rule out options for Jesus' identity. Why do you seem to assert that the fact that those writers don't explicitly say Jesus was not God means Jesus WAS God? There's no logical necessity about that at all. There are LOTS of things the Gospel writers don't explicitly say about Jesus. Does that mean all of those things, too, must be true about him?


    Does your question fit your TEXT-BASED discussion guidelines ? (question distracts from discussion about who Jesus was, is, and is coming)

    This strikes me as an evasion of the issue I raised with my question, which is do you believe Gospel writers must explicitly deny something about Jesus in order for that something not to be true? So, for example, unless they explicitly say Jesus didn't get a haircut every day, Jesus must have got a haircut everyday?


    Reign ... forever & Kingdom never end => God.

    Do you believe King David was God since God told him his kingdom would never end? (2 Samuel 7.16) Do you believe David's son Solomon was God since God said Solomon's reign would never end? (1 Chronicles 17.14; 28.7)


    To me, Luke 1:36 describes Holy conception inside Mary (where God fertilized a human egg so God is physically the Father of Jesus so "the Son of God" is literally True).

    Luke 1.36 is about Elizabeth, not Mary. Luke 1.35 reports that the Holy Spirit "overshadowed" Mary, which resulted in her child's being holy and called the Son of God. One who is called the Son of God is not, in my view, "literally" the Son of God. Paul told the Romans that it wasn't until the resurrection that Jesus was "shown to be" the Son of God. (Romans 1.4 - and note that the verse says Jesus "WAS RAISED" from the dead - i.e. the passive voice)

    FWIW, I think the "Jesus is the Son of God, which makes him God... of a form" argument is one most cogent arguments available to those who believe Jesus was God. In the end, I don't find that argument compelling! But I find it cogent and worthy of review and, of course, respect.


    Biblical text has plural ℗ & singular words: e.g. Genesis 1:26 (NLT) Then God ℗ said, “Let us ℗ make human beings in our ℗ image, to be like us ℗.

    I subscribe to the view, endorsed by countless scholars, that the plural pronouns in such verses does NOT refer to number but rather to importance or majesty. The fact that we find such plural pronouns in only a handful of verses is telling and dispositive for me. If OT writers believed God is a "plural unified God," surely we'd see more than three or four deployments of plural pronouns.


    Matthew 1:20-21 (NLT) the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 

    I don't agree that conception via the Holy Spirit makes the child God. In Luke, it makes the child "holy" (set apart) but in neither text does it make the child God.


    Suggest studying Hebrew word: עֹולָם ʿôlām eternity (translated as ancient in ESV)

    The Israel Bible (published by Israel365) includes a note about Micha / Micah 5:1...

    Jesus is God's Bread of Life (The Word) who was born in the House of Bread. The Word (God) existed before ancient days.

    This response and the resource you quoted do not address the point I made: That in Micah 5.1-2, it is the leader's coming, the promise of his arrival, that has been around for a long time (eternity), NOT the leader himself. Do you have a comment about what exactly the text says has been around forever?


    Magnitude of the multitude who experienced Jesus being "God with us" lacks documentation (John 20:24-25). Concur literal "God with us" prophecy fulfillment question feels rhetorical, which indicates obvious Truth.

    You agree that YOUR QUESTION "feels rhetorical," and that fact somehow "indicates obvious Truth"? There is nothing necessarily true about a rhetorical question, which is a question asked without expectation of a response.


    Notably missing are many people in Matthew who experienced Jesus being "God with us" so knowledge about Jesus is substantially more. This short list shows Jesus being "God with us" by words and actions that did God's Will. Notably missing is Jesus knowing human heart thoughts (attribute of God) followed by responding to those thoughts. Humans lack ability to read another human's mind.

    My comment was about what Matthew's Gospel tells us about Jesus. I'm not aware that Matthew's Gospel tell us about those "who experienced Jesus being 'God with us'."

    If you and I speak words and implement actions that do God's will, are we also "God with us"? If you and I know human heart thoughts and then respond to them, are we also "God with us"?

    I can't count all the times my wife knows what I'm thinking, or when I know what she's thinking. Jesus' great power of discernment was a gift FROM God, not a proof that he WAS God.


    Restating an unanswered question: What is the Jewish legal basis for "Blasphemy" judgement ? What did the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) clearly interpret as cursing God in the words spoken by Jesus in Matthew 26:64Mark 14:62Luke 22:67-70 ? (so Jesus deserved to die)

    You, Wolfgang, and I addressed your blasphemy question extensively, across many posts, on page 8 of THIS THREAD.


    Appears three "where in the text" are faith belief assesrtions phrased as questions (our understanding of Scripture is filtered by our faith beliefs). To me, One True God never lies so entire Bible is a coherent Love story, which has three Voices in One God (with every voice being heard & obeyed by humans in various scripture passages). Since a plural unified God does not lie, my faith does not have to choose between verses.

    This does not respond to the three "Where in the text..." questions I raised, questions that were not "faith assertions phrased as questions," but rather inquiries into specific, and I contend, unfounded, claims that you made in a previous post. Your reply here, therefore, comes off to me as evasion of the questions I asked.


    Human disciples of Jesus were not able to cast all demons, but commands by Jesus to demons and devil were always obeyed (be quiet, leave, ...).

    Jesus apparently thought the disciples could cast out demons: (Matthew 10.5-8)

    5 Jesus sent out the twelve apostles with these instructions: “Don’t go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans, 6 but only to the people of Israel—God’s lost sheep. 7 Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received! 


    Fulfillment of Messianic prophecy that includes "And his name will be the hope of all the world." (God provides hope for every human in Jesus)

    I asked where in the Matthew 12.15-21 text you find support for the view that Jesus is God; your reply here does not respond to that question. I ask my question again: Where in the Matthew 12 text do you find reason to dispute my interpretation of the text - namely, that in the text, Jesus is NOT God, but rather God's chosen servant?


    Evading question "How do Jews handle G_d's Name ?" asserts lack of qualification to understand G_d expressions written by a Jewish author. Matthew begins Gospel with Jewish genealogy that includes numerical value of King David's name. Every Hebrew letter has a number value. King David's name is three Hebrew letters: DVD. Dalet (D) has a value of 4. Vav (V) has a value of 6. Hence, King David's name has a numerical value of 14 = 4 (D) + 6 (V) + 4 (D) so Matthew has three sets of 14 generations in Matthew 1:1-18

    Since I explicitly declared that I am not equipped to address your name handling question, I clearly did not evade it.

    Your interest in the numerical value of King David's name is much greater than my interest in it.


    Humanly not know what authority The Word (God) chose to humbly leave in heaven before taking on human flesh (knowing human flesh would become Holy sacrifice for all human sin so did not want authority being claimed by satan). Thankful for Philippians 2:1-11 and Hebrews chapter 1.

    This reply does not respond to the content of my post, which at this point was an exegesis of Daniel 7.13-14. Do you have any comment about the content of my post, about my reading of those verses?


    If Jesus is not God, then what could people be believing while Praising God for Lazarus being alive ? God raises people from the dead. To me, believing in Jesus includes belief in God (who has power over death), which is consistent with Scripture passsages.

    My point was that the text doesn't say people believed in Jesus as God. You're welcome to read those words into the text, but the text itself does not use them.

    I think the text means the people praised God as the source of the healing, and believed in Jesus as a person sent and empowered by God, among other things, to heal.


    Fascinating personal faith belief assertion (humanly unconvinced by exchanges to change faith belief about Jesus) in A TEXT-BASED discussion.

    My claims that you have yet to cite a single verse that says Jesus is God, and that that's because there is no such verse are products of my powers of observation and my ability to read. If you believe my "my personal faith belief assertion" is wrong, then show me: Cite the verse(s) in which Jesus, one of his followers, a member of his audiences, or a Bible writer says Jesus is God.


    Most important question for every human is: How have you chosen to do God's Will ? God will judge every human based on actions expressing that human's heart choice of their primary Love (Ezekiel 18 agrees with Revelation 20). Human choosing to Love One True God with everything results in doing God's Will: faith without works (love actions) is dead.

    On earth, Jesus was a traveling Jewish Rabbi who knew Hebrew reading of YHVH ( יהוה ) is enunciated as a-do-NAI (Lord). Only the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) enunciated YHVH ( יהוה ) correctly in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Jesus also knew 6,358 YHVH ( יהוה ) in Hebrew were translated into Greek LXX as kurios (Lord) 6,040 and theos (God) 318 times. Hence, Jesus speaking with God's authority in Matthew 7:21-23 (NLT) reads to me as: “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה )! Lord ( יהוה )!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father ( יהוה ) in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה )! Lord ( יהוה )! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name ( יהוה ) .’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ 

    When Jesus judges humans by saying: "I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws." where do those people go ?

    I respect your point of view here, but find your comments to be off-topic, and hence I'm choosing not to respond to them.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,345

    Hi Bill, your failure to grasp the simplest trinity passages proves you cannot understand scripture. In dealing with antitrinitarians around the net, I first test them with a few of these passages. Any who cannot pass the test I don't get too involved with knowing it's a waste of time. This helps make better use of my time.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Dave_L posted

    Hi Bill, your failure to grasp the simplest trinity passages proves you cannot understand scripture. In dealing with antitrinitarians around the net, I first test them with a few of these passages. Any who cannot pass the test I don't get too involved with knowing it's a waste of time. This helps make better use of my time.

    HA HA HA HA ...

    Since there are NO trinity passages in the Bible, of course those who have recognized that such "trinity passages" are only fantasies, will all and always fail your test. Thus, it is a good thing that you "don't get too involved knowing it's a waste of time" .... Those really interested in Scripture study rather than "Trinity Dogma" Fata Morgana over the theologian horizon.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Dave_L posted:

    Hi Bill, your failure to grasp the simplest trinity passages proves you cannot understand scripture. In dealing with antitrinitarians around the net, I first test them with a few of these passages. Any who cannot pass the test I don't get too involved with knowing it's a waste of time. This helps make better use of my time.

    I'm open to correction on this, but I THINK this has been your basic response EVERY TIME I've asked you to engage specific Bible texts with me, Dave. Instead of helping me "grasp the simplest of trinity passages," you choose - I think, every time - to issue a dismissive put down, this time, of my intellectual capacity. The one thing you NEVER do is actually engage Scripture with me. You're more than willing to offer texts for my/our consideration (42 of them in your recent post) and to dismiss my capacity to understand, but you're not willing to engage texts - you're NEVER willing to engage texts. I think that's telling.

    Think about this from the perspective of an outside observer: He or she sees me directly engage ALL 42 of the texts you cited (a process that took me quite a bit of time) while you refuse to engage the TWO texts I cited, choosing instead the easy out of a dismissive put down. Which of our respective approaches to our discussion is that outside observer likely to conclude seemed more reasonable, appropriate, and in keeping with the spirit of these forums?

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    A note about this thread, which has now reached an unusual level of total interest and activity, at least unusual for CD threads in recent months. The thread has reached the 625+ views and 75+ comments level (a "level" I created for this comment, obviously). What's unusual about that is that, by my count, only four other threads of the last 330 have reached it - about one out of every 80 threads. So thanks to those who have and will post here, and to those who have and will visit here.

    The more impressive thing about this thread, though, is that for the most part we've reached that level of interest and activity without much rancor. No name-calling. A dismissive put down or two, perhaps, but none of the toxic exchanges we've produced in other threads. No one's questioned anybody's Christianity. Their interpretations of Scripture, yes! But not their faith.

    And I suggest this thread has succeeded in those ways because we agreed early on to stick to the biblical text, to confine our commentaries to the text and avert them away from each other. It's the essence of the "criticize ideas, not people" expectation of these forums. I propose to you that in this thread we have shown that model works, and it can work in all of our threads, including the ones where our comments display the deep partisan political divide that exists in the United States, but I'm confident, in other nations in the world as well.

    Keep it up!

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690
    edited January 18

    @Bill_Coley posted (in reply to @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    My claims that you have yet to cite a single verse that says Jesus is God, and that that's because there is no such verse are products of my powers of observation and my ability to read.

    I would think that it is not only appropriate but mandatory for anyone interested in knowing the Scriptures and believing what Scripture teaches to employ these powers of observation and ability to read.

    If you believe my "my personal faith belief assertion" is wrong, then show me: Cite the verse(s) in which Jesus, one of his followers, a member of his audiences, or a Bible writer says Jesus is God.

    Apparently, some base their "personal faith belief assertion" not on what they read and observe in Scripture, but rather on something else ... but what could such basis for faith be, if it isn't what one observes and reads in Scripture? @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus perhaps can answer this question?

  • @Wolfgang Ha ha ha ... There is no such thing as "three distinct Voices (Roles) within One Spirit Being" in Scripture. Also, Jesus was not "one of three distinct Roles of a Spirit Being ... he was a human being of flesh and blood and born of a woman (cp Gal 4:4Heb 2:14) ...

    Frankly, I don't care what things are "to me" (or "to you" or "to someone else") ... I do care what the TEXT STATES when properly read instead of interpreted via "too me" theological glasses.

    Scripture text about Jesus has "the Son of God" being literally true (physical father of Jesus is God, not human): Matthew 1:20-21 (ESV) “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Luke 1:35 (ESV) The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Most important question for every human is: How have you chosen to do God's Will ? God will judge every human based on actions expressing that human's heart choice of their primary Love (Ezekiel 18 agrees with Revelation 20). Human choosing to Love One True God with everything results in doing God's Will: faith without works (love actions) is dead.

    On earth, Jesus was a traveling Jewish Rabbi who knew Hebrew reading of YHVH ( יהוה ) is enunciated as a-do-NAI (Lord). Only the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) enunciated YHVH ( יהוה ) correctly in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Jesus also knew 6,358 YHVH ( יהוה ) in Hebrew were translated into Greek LXX as kurios (Lord) 6,040 and theos (God) 318 times. Hence, Jesus speaking with God's authority in Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV) reads to me as: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה ), Lord ( יהוה ),’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father ( יהוה ) who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה ), Lord ( יהוה ), did we not prophesy in your name ( יהוה ), and cast out demons in your name ( יהוה ), and do many mighty works in your name ( יהוה ) ?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Jesus knew His righteous purpose and name were spoken by Lord ( יהוה ) God in Jeremiah 23:1-8 that includes Jeremiah 23:6-7 (ESV) Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord ( יהוה ), when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord ( יהוה ) is our righteousness ( צדקנו ).’  Also Jesus knew Psalm 110 described Him, which includes verse 4 (ESV) The Lord ( יהוה ) has sworn and will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” King ( מלכי ) of Righteousness ( צדק ). While on earth speaking with God's authority, Jesus taught about His future duty in Heaven as The Lord's Priestly King of Righteousness in Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus exercises Godly knowledge about human heart choices to correctly know when human(s) choose to do God's Will.

    As God's King, when Jesus judges humans by saying: "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." where do those people go ?


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    To me, Luke 1:36 describes Holy conception inside Mary (where God fertilized a human egg so God is physically the Father of Jesus so "the Son of God" is literally True).

    @Bill_Coley Luke 1.36 is about Elizabeth, not Mary.

    My apologies for my mistake with chapter and verse numbering reference (normally have these artificial numbers hidden in my Logos Bible software because God inspired original Scripture writings without chapter and verse numbering plus these artificial numbers have misalignment issues with original language discourse boundaries).

    @Bill_Coley Luke 1.35 reports that the Holy Spirit "overshadowed" Mary, which resulted in her child's being holy and called the Son of God. One who is called the Son of God is not, in my view, "literally" the Son of God. Paul told the Romans that it wasn't until the resurrection that Jesus was "shown to be" the Son of God. (Romans 1.4 - and note that the verse says Jesus "WAS RAISED" from the dead - i.e. the passive voice)

    Paul (Saul) did not believe in Jesus as God until a personal encounter described in Acts 9. Matthew 27:54 (NLT) The Roman officer and the other soldiers at the crucifixion were terrified by the earthquake and all that had happened. They said, “This man truly was the Son of God!” 

    @Bill_Coley FWIW, I think the "Jesus is the Son of God, which makes him God... of a form" argument is one most cogent arguments available to those who believe Jesus was God. In the end, I don't find that argument compelling! But I find it cogent and worthy of review and, of course, respect.

    What is unbelievable about Jesus literally being the Son of God ? Not compelling has a truth implication about God.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Biblical text has plural ℗ & singular words: e.g. Genesis 1:26 (NLT) Then God ℗ said, “Let us ℗ make human beings in our ℗ image, to be like us ℗.

    @Bill_Coley I subscribe to the view, endorsed by countless scholars, that the plural pronouns in such verses does NOT refer to number but rather to importance or majesty. The fact that we find such plural pronouns in only a handful of verses is telling and dispositive for me. If OT writers believed God is a "plural unified God," surely we'd see more than three or four deployments of plural pronouns.

    My faith belief subscribes to scripture truth with collaborating personal testimony from people who have heard three distinct voices of One God. Morph Search <LogosMorphHeb ~ R???P??> INTERSECTS <Person God> in Lexham Hebrew Bible includes four plural pronoun usages referring to One God: Ge 1.26, Ge 3.22, Is 41.22, Is 43.9


    @Bill_Coley Do you believe King David was God since God told him his kingdom would never end? (2 Samuel 7.16) Do you believe David's son Solomon was God since God said Solomon's reign would never end? (1 Chronicles 17.14; 28.7)

    No to both questions. Paragraph contexts are 2 Samuel 7:1-17, 1 Chronicles 17:1-15, 1 Chronicles 28:1-21 (noted warning by David to Solomon)

    @Bill_Coley Why do you seem to assert that the fact that those writers don't explicitly say Jesus was not God means Jesus WAS God? 

    Jewish Scripture authors (inspired by Gd) included many Jewish expressions of Jesus being Gd while treating Gd's Name with Jewish reverence.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Restating an unanswered question: What is the Jewish legal basis for "Blasphemy" judgement ? What did the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) clearly interpret as cursing God in the words spoken by Jesus in Matthew 26:64Mark 14:62Luke 22:67-70 ? (so Jesus deserved to die)

    @Bill_Coley You, Wolfgang, and I addressed your blasphemy question extensively, across many posts, on page 8 of THIS THREAD.

    Still unanswered is the Jewish legal basis for "Blasphemy" judgement. After the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) commanded by the Living God, what did Jesus say in a Jewish way that Jewish religious leaders present at the "trial" of Jesus intrepreted as cursing Gd so Jesus ought to die ?

    Page 8 includes earlier question followed by evasiveness (lacks Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy"):

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Original audience for Mark 14.62 is Jewish Sanhedrin (religious council) members, which is the supreme court for Jewish matters that includes implementing and observing 613 commands (mitzvot) in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Personally would be surprised if any Sanhedrin member had not memorized every letter and word of Torah along with oral traditions (Torah knowledge would be needed for legal discussions about Jewish matters). Blasphemy declaration by High Priest was a Jewish legal judgement, which is evidence of these Jewish listeners being reminded about Exodus 3:14 and other passages followed by interpreting truth spoken by Jesus as cursing Gd (so Jesus deserved to die).

    If the Messiah is merely a man, then how does yes answer provide Jewish legal basis for blasphemy against God judgement ? What did the Jewish High Priest understand Jesus to say that provided legal reason for death according to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy ?

    @Bill_Coley Jesus HIMSELF told the Pharisees that he was not claiming to be God. He told them he was claiming to be the Son of God. The issue is will we believe the Pharisees or Jesus. I believe Jesus.

    Jewish religious leaders present at the "trial" of Jesus did not believe Jewish deity claims by Jesus so they interpreted words as cursing reason to die. Where in the text did Jesus state being Gd in human flesh using Jewish expressions ? (Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy")

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Most important question for every human is: How have you chosen to do God's Will ? God will judge every human based on actions expressing that human's heart choice of their primary Love (Ezekiel 18 agrees with Revelation 20). Human choosing to Love One True God with everything results in doing God's Will: faith without works (love actions) is dead.

    On earth, Jesus was a traveling Jewish Rabbi who knew Hebrew reading of YHVH ( יהוה ) is enunciated as a-do-NAI (Lord). Only the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) enunciated YHVH ( יהוה ) correctly in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Jesus also knew 6,358 YHVH ( יהוה ) in Hebrew were translated into Greek LXX as kurios (Lord) 6,040 and theos (God) 318 times. Hence, Jesus speaking with God's authority in Matthew 7:21-23 (NLT) reads to me as: “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה )! Lord ( יהוה )!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father ( יהוה ) in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord ( יהוה )! Lord ( יהוה )! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name ( יהוה ) .’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ 

    Jesus knew His righteous purpose and name were spoken by Lord ( יהוה ) God in Jeremiah 23:1-8 that includes Jeremiah 23:6-7 (NLT) “For the time is coming,” says the Lord ( יהוה ), “when I will raise up a righteous descendant from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land. And this will be his name: ‘The Lord ( יהוה ) Is Our Righteousness ( צדקנו ).’ Also Jesus knew Psalm 110 described Him, which includes verse 4 (ESV) The Lord ( יהוה ) has sworn and will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” King ( Melchi = מלכי ) of Righteousness ( zedek = צדק ). While on earth speaking with God's authority, Jesus taught about His future duty in Heaven as The Lord's Priestly King of Righteousness in Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus exercises Godly knowledge about human heart choices to correctly know when human(s) choose to do God's Will.

    As God's King, when Jesus judges humans by saying: "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." where do those people go ?

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Paul (Saul) did not believe in Jesus as God until a personal encounter described in Acts 9. Matthew 27:54 (NLT) The Roman officer and the other soldiers at the crucifixion were terrified by the earthquake and all that had happened. They said, “This man truly was the Son of God!” 

    There is nothing in Acts 9 or in Paul's personal descriptions of his Damascus road encounter with Jesus (Acts 22 and Acts 26) that asserts that Paul believed Jesus was God. Nothing. You're reading into the text what you want the text to say, what you believe the text should say, what you personally believe. You're of course free to do so, just as I am free to call attention to the fact that what you're reading into the text IS NOT THERE.

    Matthew 27.54 has nothing to do with Paul; it has to do with a Roman soldier who affirms his belief that Jesus was the Son of God.



    What is unbelievable about Jesus literally being the Son of God ? Not compelling has a truth implication about God.

    I believe that in the Gospels, "Son of God" functions as a role, position, office, or designation akin to "the Savior," or "the Messiah" given to Jesus by God. I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God.

    I don't know what "a truth implication about God" means.



    My faith belief subscribes to scripture truth with collaborating personal testimony from people who have heard three distinct voices of One God. Morph Search <LogosMorphHeb ~ R???P??> INTERSECTS <Person God> in Lexham Hebrew Bible includes four plural pronoun usages referring to One God: Ge 1.26Ge 3.22Is 41.22Is 43.9

    My point is that the four citations you offer are the ONLY OT locations of plural pronouns for God, and ALL of them are immediately succeeded by singular pronouns. That infrequency of occurrence + the singular pronoun follow-ups make it clear to me that the plural pronouns are about majesty, not number.


    No to both questions. Paragraph contexts are 2 Samuel 7:1-171 Chronicles 17:1-151 Chronicles 28:1-21 (noted warning by David to Solomon)

    In a previous post, you argued that "(The Messiah has an everlasting throne, which infers Messiah => God)." Nothing in the contexts you cite takes away from the everlasting character of David's and Solomon's thrones, which, it seems to me, would lead your argument to conclude both kings were God.


    Jewish Scripture authors (inspired by Gd) included many Jewish expressions of Jesus being Gd while treating Gd's Name with Jewish reverence.

    Where in the text do you find support for your claim that the expressions Scripture writer used to identify Jesus meant they believed Jesus was God?



    Still unanswered is the Jewish legal basis for "Blasphemy" judgement. After the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) commanded by the Living God, what did Jesus say in a Jewish way that Jewish religious leaders present at the "trial" of Jesus intrepreted as cursing Gd so Jesus ought to die ?

    Page 8 includes earlier question followed by evasiveness (lacks Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy"):

    In John 10.33, people with rocks in their hands accuse Jesus of blasphemy because, they assert, he claims to be God. In the very next verses (John 10.34-35) Jesus reminds the people of their own scriptures' reference to God's calling human "gods," and then tells them, NOT that he believes himself to be God, but that he believes himself to be the Son of God. I assume that this is part of the "legal basis" for the blasphemy charge. I assume another part is found in Mark 14.60-64, in which the Pharisees allege blasphemy after Jesus accepts identification as "the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One." Recall that for the ancients, the messiah was NOT thought to be God, but rather a human who would be God's chosen one to lead the nation.

    Speaking of evasion: For the third time I call your attention to the following three "Where in the text..." questions I've asked but you've not addressed:

    • Where in the text do you find support for your claim that Jesus, the Spirit of God (which descends "like a dove," (Matthew 3.16) not necessarily in the form of a dove) and the voice are "three roles in One God's commUnitry of Love"?
    • Where in the text do you find support for your claim that "the devil could not disobey (a) command from Jesus"?
    • Where in the text do you find support for your claim that "no human has authority to torment demons"?... There is nothing in the text to suggest that the demons or the crowd believes Jesus is God.


    Jewish religious leaders present at the "trial" of Jesus did not believe Jewish deity claims by Jesus so they interpreted words as cursing reason to die. Where in the text did Jesus state being Gd in human flesh using Jewish expressions ? (Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy")

    Jesus did not offer "Jewish deity claims." Jesus never declared himself to be God. It's just not there. You're welcome to read it into the texts, but you have to do because it's not in the text.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Scripture text about Jesus has "the Son of God" being literally true (physical father of Jesus is God, not human): Matthew 1:20-21 (ESV) “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Luke 1:35 (ESV) The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

    Yes .. notice that neither Mt 1:20-21 nor Lk 1:35 (in Greek or Aramaic or whatever translation you want to chose) state that Jesus was or would be God. The Bible text clearly state that the woman Mary was to conceive a child via God's miraculous working.

    Women conceive and give birth to human beings, not to some kind of animal and not to God or gods (no matter what ancient Babylonian, Greek,, Egyptian, Roman or other mythologies perhaps might claim). Why is this so? Because God arranged the matter in this way of "after its kind" at the very start (cp. Gen 1).

    Very, VERY simple truth .... why do you, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, not want to acknowledge it and instead insist on you non-biblically based "faith perspective assertion" ?? Do you believe your assertion is true just because you call it "FAITH perspective"?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted

    Jesus knew His righteous purpose and name were spoken by Lord ( יהוה ) God in Jeremiah 23:1-8 that includes Jeremiah 23:6-7 (NLT) “For the time is coming,” says the Lord ( יהוה ), “when I will raise up a righteous descendant from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land. And this will be his name: ‘TheLord ( יהוה ) Is Our Righteousness ( צדקנו ).’ Also Jesus knew Psalm 110 described Him, which includes verse 4 (ESV) The Lord ( יהוה ) has sworn and will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” King ( Melchi = מלכי ) of Righteousness ( zedek = צדק ).

    Do you know the difference between the terms "El" or "Yah" being used in the meaning of a name andthese terms being used separately? You give the impression that you believe the Messiah actually was/is God because of the meaning of the above name and title used prophetically for the Messiah.

    By the principle you use there, do you consider the the prophet Jeremiah to be God because his name is "YHWH will exalt"??

    What about the prophet Isaiah, he surely must have been God since his name was יְשַׁעְיָהוּ (Yesha'yahu) meaning "YHWH is salvation" ??

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jewish religious leaders present at the "trial" of Jesus did not believe Jewish deity claims by Jesus so they interpreted words as cursing reason to die. Where in the text did Jesus state being Gd in human flesh using Jewish expressions ? (Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy")

    @Bill_Coley Jesus did not offer "Jewish deity claims." Jesus never declared himself to be God. It's just not there. You're welcome to read it into the texts, but you have to do because it's not in the text.

    Question 'Where in the text did Jesus state being Gd in human flesh using Jewish expressions ? (Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy")' remains unanswered. If belief assertion 'Jesus did not offer "Jewish deity claims." Jesus never declared himself to be God.' was valid, then Jewish legal reason for Jesus being put to death would have been something other than blasphemy. Searching first five books of the Bible for "put to death" finds many actionable causes: e.g. Exodus 31:15 for working on Sabbath (Jesus healing people on Sabbath was a reason for some Religious Leaders wanting Jesus to die). Jewish Judge (High Priest) had a binary choice when Jesus anwered plainly under oath (by the Living Gd) using Jewish expressions:

    1. Believe all human flesh cannot be Holy (Psalm 14) so any human claming to be Gd is guilty of Leviticus 24:16 blasphemy
    2. Believe truth of Jewish diety claims spoken by Jesus (Daniel 7:13-14, Psalm 110, Jeremiah 23:5-6 prophecies truly describe Jesus)

    Jewish legal death penalty requires two or more witnesses per Numbers 35:30 and Deuteronomy 17:6, which explains Jewish Religious Judge (High Priest) comment about not needing further witnesses because High Priest & Sanhedrin members interpreted Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jesus as blasphemy cursing Gd (so Jesus was crucified for who Jesus is, "The King of the Jews", not anything Jesus had done).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Still unanswered is the Jewish legal basis for "Blasphemy" judgement. After the Cohen Hagadol (High Priest) commanded by the Living God, what did Jesus say in a Jewish way that Jewish religious leaders present at the "trial" of Jesus intrepreted as cursing Gd so Jesus ought to die ?

    Page 8 includes earlier question followed by evasiveness (lacks Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy"):

    @Bill_Coley In John 10.33, people with rocks in their hands accuse Jesus of blasphemy because, they assert, he claims to be God. In the very next verses (John 10.34-35) Jesus reminds the people of their own scriptures' reference to God's calling human "gods," and then tells them, NOT that he believes himself to be God, but that he believes himself to be the Son of God. I assume that this is part of the "legal basis" for the blasphemy charge. I assume another part is found in Mark 14.60-64, in which the Pharisees allege blasphemy after Jesus accepts identification as "the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One." Recall that for the ancients, the messiah was NOT thought to be God, but rather a human who would be God's chosen one to lead the nation.

    The Messiah = The Christ = The Annointed Holy One = God's eternal Priestly King of Righteousness (Psalm 110, Jeremiah 23:5-6). Melchizedek is a Hebrew word that means King (Melchi) Righteousness (zedek) that is consistent with Jeremiah 23:6 Lord (YHWH) Righteousness (Tzidkenu) name for Jesus as spoken by Lord (YHWH) in both Psalm 110:4 (forever = eternal) and Jeremiah 23:5-6. Isaiah 9:6-7 (NLT) For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GodEverlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His government and its peace will never end. He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David for all eternity

    John 10:31-36 (CJB) Once again the Judeans picked up rocks in order to stone him. Yeshua answered them, “You have seen me do many good deeds that reflect the Father’s power; for which one of these deeds are you stoning me?” The Judeans replied, “We are not stoning you for any good deed, but for blasphemy—because you, who are only a man, are making yourself out to be God [Hebrew: Elohim].” Yeshua answered them, “Isn’t it written in your Torah, ‘I have said, “You people are Elohim’ ”? If he called ‘elohim’ the people to whom the word of Elohim was addressed (and the Tanakh cannot be broken), then are you telling the one whom the Father set apart as holy and sent into the world, ‘You are committing blasphemy,’ just because I said, ‘I am a son of Elohim’? 

    Bold text ‘I have said, “You people are Elohim’ is a quote, which brought Psalm 82 context to Judean minds that includes verses 6 & 7 (CJB) “My decree is: ‘You are elohim [gods, judges], sons of the Most High all of you. Nevertheless, you will die like mortals; like any prince, you will fall.’ ”

    Remember Elohim (Gd) was the physical father (creator) of Adam and Yeshua (Jesus). Adam was created Holy (Adam's sin changed human nature to be unholy = spiritually dead) while Yeshua was born Holy as the literal son of Elohim (Gd = Holy Father + human mother => Yeshua, YHWH's salvation). John 10 happened before Jesus was arrested so does not apply to "trial" and legal death penalty verdict by Jewish Religious Judge.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Paul (Saul) did not believe in Jesus as God until a personal encounter described in Acts 9.

    @Bill_Coley There is nothing in Acts 9 or in Paul's personal descriptions of his Damascus road encounter with Jesus (Acts 22 and Acts 26) that asserts that Paul believed Jesus was God. Nothing. You're reading into the text what you want the text to say, what you believe the text should say, what you personally believe. You're of course free to do so, just as I am free to call attention to the fact that what you're reading into the text IS NOT THERE.

    Belief what cannot be prevents seeing what is (so truthful reading from scripture is interpreted as "what you're reading into the text IS NOT THERE").

    Acts 9 has many belief assertions: both direct (Saul knew Jewish usage of Lord meaning Gd when he asked voice from heaven "Who are you, Lord ?" along with being baptized followed by preaching Jesus is the Son of Gd & The Messiah = Gd's eternal Priestly King of Righteousness) and indirect: e.g. after encounter with Jesus, Saul's bold words of Jesus as Gd belief provided motivation for other Jews to kill Saul for Leviticus 24:6 blasphemy. Paul's personal story in Acts 22 and 26 retells remarkable change from persecuting Jesus as Gd believers to knowing Jesus is Lord Gd.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    What is unbelievable about Jesus literally being the Son of God ? Not compelling has a truth implication about God.

    @Bill_Coley I believe that in the Gospels, "Son of God" functions as a role, position, office, or designation akin to "the Savior," or "the Messiah" given to Jesus by God. I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God.

    @Bill_Coley I don't know what "a truth implication about God" means.

    Assertion "I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God." affirms question "What is unbelievable about Jesus literally being the Son of God ?" validity while not providing any insight about what is unbelievable (plus implies some words inspired by One True Gd thru humans => unbelievable).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jewish Scripture authors (inspired by Gd) included many Jewish expressions of Jesus being Gd while treating Gd's Name with Jewish reverence.

    @Bill_Coley Where in the text do you find support for your claim that the expressions Scripture writer used to identify Jesus meant they believed Jesus was God?

    Blasphemy reaction (with intense desire for Jesus to die because Gd does not give Gd's Glory to a created being) is a powerful example where original Jewish audience undeniably, unmistakably understood Jewish expression spoken by Jesus having Gd's Spirit in human flesh (instead of human spirit inherited from Gd breathed creation into Adam, which became unholy when Adam choose to disobey Gd => sin).

    @Bill_Coley Speaking of evasion: For the third time I call your attention to the following three "Where in the text..." questions I've asked but you've not addressed:

    1. Where in the text do you find support for your claim that Jesus, the Spirit of God (which descends "like a dove," (Matthew 3.16) not necessarily in the form of a dove) and the voice are "three roles in One God's commUnitry of Love"?

    2. Where in the text do you find support for your claim that "the devil could not disobey (a) command from Jesus"?

    3. Where in the text do you find support for your claim that "no human has authority to torment demons"?... There is nothing in the text to suggest that the demons or the crowd believes Jesus is God.

    1. One set of role examples is the baptism of Jesus with a Holy Voice from Heaven, Spirit descending, and Jesus. Searching Bible for voice expressions finds another Holy Voice from Heaven at the Mount of Transfiguration, Acts 5 result of lying to the Holy Spirit, Acts 9 Voice of Holy Jesus from Heaven. More scripture role examples are: Psalm 2 prophecy of Father and Son today (Holy conception inside virgin Mary), Psalm 51 request to not take Holy Spirit away, Psalm 110 "The Lord said to my Lord ...", Jeremiah 23:5-6 role distinction spoken by The Lord with name "The Lord is Our Righteousness" for righteous descendant from King David's line, Isaiah 9:6-7 prophecy about ruler for all eternity
    2. Remember disciples being unable to cast out demonic spirit in a boy (delegation of Gd's authority to cast out demons did not enable casting out of all demons). Yet that evil spirit obeyed the command by Jesus to leave the boy and never enter the boy again. Goyim woman pleading for her possessed daughter (dogs are allowed to eat scraps beneath their masters' table) experienced words spoken by Jesus being effective for instant healing of her daughter. Scripture does not have any example where the devil nor any demon disobeyed Jesus (not there).
    3. Assertion "There is nothing in the text to suggest that the demons or the crowd believes Jesus is God." declares faith belief while denying text about demons knowing Jesus is "the Holy One of God". (humans having a father descended from Adam inherit sin nature for unholy, innocent birth). Phrases "hurting people hurt people" and "damaged people damage people" provide speculation insight for Gd not granting authority to humans to torment demons (since hurt & damage inflicted by humans can be tremendous: e.g. Assyria & Babylon on Israel). Demons knew Jesus is God's eternal Priestly King of Righteousness, whose justice includes torment for demons.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jesus knew His righteous purpose and name were spoken by Lord ( יהוה ) God in Jeremiah 23:1-8 that includes Jeremiah 23:6-7 (NLT) “For the time is coming,” says the Lord ( יהוה ), “when I will raise up a righteous descendant from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land. And this will be his name: ‘The Lord ( יהוה ) Is Our Righteousness ( צדקנו ).’ Also Jesus knew Psalm 110 described Him, which includes verse 4 (ESV) The Lord ( יהוה ) has sworn and will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” King ( Melchi = מלכי ) of Righteousness ( zedek = צדק ). While on earth speaking with God's authority, Jesus taught about His future duty in Heaven as The Lord's Priestly King of Righteousness in Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus exercises Godly knowledge about human heart choices to correctly know when human(s) choose to do God's Will.

    As God's King, when Jesus judges humans by saying: "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." where do those people go ?

    Biblical text question is still waiting for an answer.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Scripture text about Jesus has "the Son of God" being literally true (physical father of Jesus is God, not human): Matthew 1:20-21 (ESV) “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Luke 1:35 (ESV) The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

    @Wolfgang Yes .. notice that neither Mt 1:20-21 nor Lk 1:35 (in Greek or Aramaic or whatever translation you want to chose) state that Jesus was or would be God. The Bible text clearly state that the woman Mary was to conceive a child via God's miraculous working.

    @Wolfgang Women conceive and give birth to human beings, not to some kind of animal and not to God or gods (no matter what ancient Babylonian, Greek,, Egyptian, Roman or other mythologies perhaps might claim). Why is this so? Because God arranged the matter in this way of "after its kind" at the very start (cp. Gen 1).

    Definition is similar to Jewish Religious Leaders who believed all human flesh cannot be Holy (Psalm 14:1-3 & Psalm 53:1-3 that is quoted by Paul in Romans 3:10-12) so so any human claming to be Gd is guilty of Leviticus 24:16 blasphemy (should be put to death per Gd's law). Remember Elohim (Gd) was the physical father (creator) of Adam (in Gd's image) and Yeshua (Jesus). Adam was created Holy. Adam's sin changed human nature to be unholy => spiritually dead so descendants of Adam are born unholy (& innocent as child has not yet chosen actions to show sin nature inherited from human father). Yeshua was born Holy as the literal son of Elohim (Gd: Holy Father + human: mother).

    In Matthew 1:18-25, Joseph knows the physical father of baby inside Mary is not Joseph (provides compassionate insight about Joseph wanting to nullify marriage contract quietly inside of having Mary put to death). Gd's angelic message to Joseph is to proceed with marriage contract because the baby inside was conceived by Gd's Holy miracle, not sin by Mary.

    @Wolfgang Very, VERY simple truth .... why do you, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, not want to acknowledge it and instead insist on you non-biblically based "faith perspective assertion" ?? Do you believe your assertion is true just because you call it "FAITH perspective"?

    One True God's literal accuracy is absolutely amazing. Belief what cannot be prevents seeing what is in Scripture.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jesus knew His righteous purpose and name were spoken by Lord ( יהוה ) God in Jeremiah 23:1-8 that includes Jeremiah 23:6-7 (NLT) “For the time is coming,” says the Lord ( יהוה ), “when I will raise up a righteous descendant from King David’s line. He will be a King who rules with wisdom. He will do what is just and right throughout the land. And this will be his name: ‘TheLord ( יהוה ) Is Our Righteousness ( צדקנו ).’ Also Jesus knew Psalm 110 described Him, which includes verse 4 (ESV) The Lord ( יהוה ) has sworn and will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” King ( Melchi = מלכי ) of Righteousness ( zedek = צדק ).

    @Wolfgang Do you know the difference between the terms "El" or "Yah" being used in the meaning of a name andthese terms being used separately?

    Yes.

    @Wolfgang You give the impression that you believe the Messiah actually was/is God because of the meaning of the above name and title used prophetically for the Messiah.

    Concur with Messiah belief assertion, which is consistent with Scripture (literally).

    @Wolfgang By the principle you use there, do you consider the the prophet Jeremiah to be God because his name is "YHWH will exalt"??

    No. Scripture principle is Jesus knowing Scripture propheces described Jesus: e.g. Road to Emmaus explanations by Jesus.

    @Wolfgang What about the prophet Isaiah, he surely must have been God since his name was יְשַׁעְיָהוּ (Yesha'yahu) meaning "YHWH is salvation" ??

    Isaiah was a human prophet, which includes contemporary and future prophicies (with fulfillment declared by Gd).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    While on earth speaking with God's authority, Jesus taught about His future duty in Heaven as The Lord's Priestly King of Righteousness in Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus exercises Godly knowledge about human heart choices to correctly know when human(s) choose to do God's Will.

    As God's King, when Jesus judges humans by saying: "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." where do those people go ?

    Biblical text question is still waiting for an answer.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,043

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Question 'Where in the text did Jesus state being Gd in human flesh using Jewish expressions ? (Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy")' remains unanswered. If belief assertion 'Jesus did not offer "Jewish deity claims." Jesus never declared himself to be God.' was valid, then Jewish legal reason for Jesus being put to death would have been something other than blasphemy. ...

    No, your "where in the text did Jesus state being God in human flesh using Jewish expressions" question does NOT remain unanswered. I have addressed it on multiple occasions, providing the same basic response each time. That you may disapprove of or feel unsatisfied by my responses does not mean I didn't respond to your question.

    On other occasions when you have asserted that I didn't answer your questions, I provided links to my previous responses, but I'm now choosing to discontinue that practice, as much as anything out of frustration with the frequency of your mistaken claims.

    If instead of contending, falsely, that I hadn't addressed your question about Jesus' purported "Gd in human flesh" statements you would simply have cited and quoted his purported "Gd in human flesh" statements, we could have engaged their substance. Instead, I'm left to tell you, yet again, that I have already answered your question.

    In short, my previous responses to your question contained two basic assertions (if you want additional information on either or both of them, search my previous posts)

    • That the Pharisees or other religious leaders accused Jesus of claiming to be God DOES NOT mean Jesus actually claimed to be God. It means ONLY that they accused him of claiming to be God.
    • In fact, there is NO textual support for the Pharisees' (or your) claim that Jesus claimed to be God.


    The Messiah = The Christ = The Annointed Holy One = God's eternal Priestly King of Righteousness (Psalm 110, Jeremiah 23:5-6). Melchizedek is a Hebrew word that means King (Melchi) Righteousness (zedek) that is consistent with Jeremiah 23:6 Lord (YHWH) Righteousness (Tzidkenu) name for Jesus as spoken by Lord (YHWH) in both Psalm 110:4 (forever = eternal) and Jeremiah 23:5-6Isaiah 9:6-7 (NLT) For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GodEverlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His government and its peace will never end. He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David for all eternity

    • The one God promises to raise up in Jeremiah 23.6 is clearly a human person, and NOT a member of a Godhead (1. He will be a descendant of David's line; 2. God refers to him as "he" and "him.")
    • Psalm 110 is a royal psalm, which refers to a specific - and very human - king to whom God ("the Lord") swears support and protection (Psalm 110.4-7).
    • Isaiah 9.6-7 refers to a child already born in the prophet's time. The child is a sign of God's predicted intervention on behalf of people who have walked in great darkness (Isaiah 9.2). In his Gospel, Matthew describes the launch of Jesus' ministry "in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali" as the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy (Matthew 4.13-16).


    John 10:31-36 (CJB) Once again the Judeans picked up rocks in order to stone him. Yeshua answered them, “You have seen me do many good deeds that reflect the Father’s power; for which one of these deeds are you stoning me?” The Judeans replied, “We are not stoning you for any good deed, but for blasphemy—because you, who are only a man, are making yourself out to be God [Hebrew: Elohim].” Yeshua answered them, “Isn’t it written in your Torah‘I have said, “You people are Elohim’ ”? If he called ‘elohim’ the people to whom the word of Elohim was addressed (and the Tanakh cannot be broken), then are you telling the one whom the Father set apart as holy and sent into the world, ‘You are committing blasphemy,’ just because I said, ‘I am a son of Elohim’? 

    I think you mischaracterize the John 10 passage, whose rhetorical transaction I read as follows:

    • John 10.24 - People in the temple ask Jesus to say plainly whether he is the Messiah.
    • John 10.25 - Jesus tells them that he has already told them, but they don't believe him. The proof of his claim, Jesus says, is in the work he does in his Father's name.
    • John 10.27-29 - Jesus says the sheep whom his Father has given to him listen to and follow him, and to those sheep Jesus gives eternal life.
    • John 10.30 - Jesus says he and the Father "are one."
    • John 10.31 - People pick up stones to kill Jesus.
    • John 10.32 - Jesus asks for which of his good works they intend to kill him.
    • John 10.33 - The crowd says they're going to kill him for claiming to be God.
    • John 10.34-36 - Jesus tells them that in their own Scriptures God calls "certain leaders" gods. If they don't protest others' being God "gods," why should they consider it blasphemy that he calls himself the Son of God? The argument here is that God set apart those past leaders as "gods," and now God has set apart Jesus as the Son of God.

    THAT IS, in John 10 Jesus does NOT claim to be God. He claims to be set apart by God for a particular role - the Son of God - just as God set others apart for their roles. Jesus makes clear his subservience to God in John 10.37-38, where he describes what he does as his Father's work.


    Belief what cannot be prevents seeing what is (so truthful reading from scripture is interpreted as "what you're reading into the text IS NOT THERE").

    This is another road we have traveled multiple times.

    IT IS THE TEXT ITSELF that leads me to draw the conclusions I do about biblical texts. It is NOT, NOT, NOT my "belief" that does so. You have made this assertion several previous times, each time falsely. In the current instance, regarding my view of Paul's description of his Damascus road experience, your claim is again false. In much the same way as I have decided no longer to provide links to my previous responses to questions you falsely claim I haven't addressed, I will no longer address your false claims that my "belief" or "faith perspective" or whatever else keeps me from correctly understanding Scripture texts. When I contend that there is nothing in Acts 9 or Acts 26 to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God, that means as I read the text itself there is nothing in those chapters to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God.


    Acts 9 has many belief assertions: both direct (Saul knew Jewish usage of Lord meaning Gd when he asked voice from heaven "Who are you, Lord ?" along with being baptized followed by preaching Jesus is the Son of Gd & The Messiah = Gd's eternal Priestly King of Righteousness) and indirect: e.g. after encounter with Jesus, Saul's bold words of Jesus as Gd belief provided motivation for other Jews to kill Saul for Leviticus 24:6 blasphemy. Paul's personal story in Acts 22 and 26 retells remarkable change from persecuting Jesus as Gd believers to knowing Jesus is Lord Gd.

    • If Paul believed Jesus was God in his Acts 9 encounter, why did Paul ask who he was? The question you claim Paul asked is self-answering! - "Who are you, (God)?" means Paul believed the one who spoke to him was God. That's CLEARLY not the meaning of Paul's question. Paul's use of the word "lord" on the Damascus road is NOT a reference to deity, but rather to authority.
    • There is no indication in Paul's presentations that he believed the Messiah was God (e.g. Romans 1.4-5)
    • Paul issued no "bold words of Jesus as Gd belief." If you contend that he did, rather than telling me that my "belief" keeps me from seeing them, please cite the specific verses that contain them so we can engage on their content.
    • Leviticus 24.6 concerns the stacking of loaves of bread on a gold table. What "blasphemy" do you contend the Jews found there to hold against Paul?
    • "Paul's personal story in Acts 22 and 26" does NOT report his "knowing Jesus is Lord Gd." If you contend that it does, rather than telling me that my "belief" keeps me from seeing where it does so, please cite the specific applicable verse(s) so that we can engage their content.


    Assertion "I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God." affirms question "What is unbelievable about Jesus literally being the Son of God ?" validity while not providing any insight about what is unbelievable (plus implies some words inspired by One True Gd thru humans => unbelievable).

    I am certain there are mistakes in the Bible (e.g. tell me what was the second temptation Jesus faced from the devil in the wilderness, and please cite the specific verse(s) that in your view prove your answer to be correct) One of those mistakes, I believe, is the claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER DEBATE!!!!!!!! so I'm not going to defend my conclusion here. Instead, I simply tell you that because of that conclusion - which is based on biblical as well as other grounds - I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God, i.e. the product of God's impregnation of Mary.



    Blasphemy reaction (with intense desire for Jesus to die because Gd does not give Gd's Glory to a created being) is a powerful example where original Jewish audience undeniably, unmistakably understood Jewish expression spoken by Jesus having Gd's Spirit in human flesh (instead of human spirit inherited from Gd breathed creation into Adam, which became unholy when Adam choose to disobey Gd => sin).

    I asked you for citations of texts in which the expressions NT writers used to describe Jesus indicated their - the writers' - belief that Jesus was God. 1) The crowd's blasphemy reactions report the crowd's beliefs, NOT an NT writer's belief; 2) The crowd's blasphemy reactions did NOT report their belief that Jesus was God, but in fact just the opposite! Their reactions reported their belief that Jesus was NOT God, and therefore deserved to die for - in their mistaken belief - his claiming to be God. So I ask you again for citations of texts in which the expressions NT writers use to describe Jesus report the writers' belief that Jesus was God.



    One set of role examples is the baptism of Jesus with a Holy Voice from Heaven, Spirit descending, and Jesus. Searching Bible for voice expressions finds another Holy Voice from Heaven at the Mount of Transfiguration, Acts 5 result of lying to the Holy Spirit, Acts 9 Voice of Holy Jesus from Heaven. More scripture role examples are: Psalm 2 prophecy of Father and Son today (Holy conception inside virgin Mary), Psalm 51 request to not take Holy Spirit away, Psalm 110 "The Lord said to my Lord ...",  role distinction spoken by The Lord with name "The Lord is Our Righteousness" for righteous descendant from King David's line,  prophecy about ruler for all eternity

    In my view, the texts you cite refer to Jesus and God and the spirit, but they do NOT cite them as constituent parts of a united godhead, a "comUnity of love."


    Remember disciples being unable to cast out demonic spirit in a boy (delegation of Gd's authority to cast out demons did not enable casting out of all demons). Yet that evil spirit obeyed the command by Jesus to leave the boy and never enter the boy again. Goyim woman pleading for her possessed daughter (dogs are allowed to eat scraps beneath their masters' table) experienced words spoken by Jesus being effective for instant healing of her daughter. Scripture does not have any example where the devil nor any demon disobeyed Jesus (not there).

    I don't claim demons could have disobeyed Jesus. I claim only that the text doesn't say they couldn't have disobeyed him. I maintain my contention.


    Assertion "." declares faith belief while denying text about demons knowing Jesus is "the Holy One of God". (humans having a father descended from Adam inherit sin nature for unholy, innocent birth). Phrases "hurting people hurt people" and "damaged people damage people" provide speculation insight for Gd not granting authority to humans to torment demons (since hurt & damage inflicted by humans can be tremendous: e.g. Assyria & Babylon on Israel). Demons knew Jesus is God's eternal Priestly King of Righteousness, whose justice includes torment for demons.

    To assert that Jesus is "the Holy One of God" makes clear a belief that Jesus is not God. "Holy" means set apart. "Of God" means belonging to or coming from God. In my view, the distinction is clear: Jesus is one whom God set apart.


    As God's King, when Jesus judges humans by saying: "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." where do those people go ? ... Biblical text question is still waiting for an answer.

    That particular scene doesn't provide an answer to your question, but in comparable instances in the Gospels, the destination of such people is a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus , I will refrain from further exchange in this or similar exchanges we've had ... for the simple reason that I find it too exhausting trying to correspond in a logical and reasonable manner with no equivalent counterpart at the other end. There appears to be no value in explaining to you aynthing in a logical fashion or use a related illustration for a point made, etc ... since you seem unable to see what I consider even the most simple and plain statements from Scripture.

    I admit, I could have this impression because I am the one who has no idea what logic and reason and reading of plain text really is. Thus, I'd rather take the blame instead of continuing with what only causes frustration for me.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Question 'Where in the text did Jesus state being Gd in human flesh using Jewish expressions ? (Jewish legal basis for "blasphemy")' remains unanswered. If belief assertion 'Jesus did not offer "Jewish deity claims." Jesus never declared himself to be God.' was valid, then Jewish legal reason for Jesus being put to death would have been something other than blasphemy. ...

    @Bill_Coley No, your "where in the text did Jesus state being God in human flesh using Jewish expressions" question does NOT remain unanswered. I have addressed it on multiple occasions, providing the same basic response each time. That you may disapprove of or feel unsatisfied by my responses does not mean I didn't respond to your question.

    @Bill_Coley On other occasions when you have asserted that I didn't answer your questions, I provided links to my previous responses, but I'm now choosing to discontinue that practice, as much as anything out of frustration with the frequency of your mistaken claims.

    @Bill_Coley If instead of contending, falsely, that I hadn't addressed your question about Jesus' purported "Gd in human flesh" statements you would simply have cited and quoted his purported "Gd in human flesh" statements, we could have engaged their substance. Instead, I'm left to tell you, yet again, that I have already answered your question.

    @Bill_Coley In short, my previous responses to your question contained two basic assertions (if you want additional information on either or both of them, search my previous posts)

    1) That the Pharisees or other religious leaders accused Jesus of claiming to be God mean Jesus actually claimed to be God. It means ONLY that they accused him of claiming to be God.

    2) In fact, there is NO textual support for the Pharisees' (or your) claim that Jesus claimed to be God.

    Unanswered can mean lack of responses (not applicable here) or lack of substance (applicable). Previous faith belief assertions woefully lack substance for explaining Jewish legal judgement of Leviticus 24:16 Blasphemy (cursing Gd) in Scripture text (punishable by being put to death).

    In a TEXT-BASED discussion, noted evasion of Scripture text counter points to previous faith belief assertions:

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    ... Searching first five books of the Bible for "put to death" finds many actionable causes: e.g. Exodus 31:15 for working on Sabbath (Jesus healing people on Sabbath was a reason for some Religious Leaders wanting Jesus to die). Jewish Judge (High Priest) had a binary choice when Jesus anwered plainly under oath (by the Living Gd) using Jewish expressions:

    1) Believe all human flesh cannot be Holy (Psalm 14) so any human claming to be Gd is guilty of  blasphemy

    2) Believe truth of Jewish diety claims spoken by Jesus (Daniel 7:13-14, Psalm 110Jeremiah 23:5-6 prophecies truly describe Jesus)

    Jewish legal death penalty requires two or more witnesses per Numbers 35:30 and Deuteronomy 17:6, which explains Jewish Religious Judge (High Priest) comment about not needing further witnesses because High Priest & Sanhedrin members interpreted Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jesus as blasphemy cursing Gd (so Jesus was crucified for who Jesus is, "The King of the Jews", not anything Jesus had done).

    Jesus anwered plainly under oath (by the Living Gd) using Jewish expressions: (NLT has * references)

    1. Matthew 26:64 (NLT) "You have said it." where "it" confirms identity of "the Messiah, the Son of God" (God's Priestly King of Righteousness)
    2. Matthew 26:64 (NLT) And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand. => * Psalm 110:1
    3. Matthew 26:64 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven." => * Daniel 7:13
    4. Mark 14:62 (NLT) “I Am. => * Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ...")
    5. Mark 14:62 (NLT) And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand => * Psalm 110:1
    6. Mark 14:62 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven.” => * Daniel 7:13
    7. Luke 22:67 (NLT) "If I tell you, you won’t believe me. ... (rightly declared heart condition of Jewish humans conducting religious "trial")
    8. Luke 22:68 (NLT) But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God’s right hand.” => * Psalm 110:1
    9. Luke 22:70 (NLT) “You say that I am.” => Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ....")

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    The Messiah = The Christ = The Annointed Holy One = God's eternal Priestly King of Righteousness (Psalm 110, Jeremiah 23:5-6). Melchizedek is a Hebrew word that means King (Melchi) Righteousness (zedek) that is consistent with Jeremiah 23:6 Lord (YHWH) Righteousness (Tzidkenu) name for Jesus as spoken by Lord (YHWH) in both Psalm 110:4 (forever = eternal) and Jeremiah 23:5-6Isaiah 9:6-7 (NLT) For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty GodEverlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His government and its peace will never end. He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David for all eternity

    @Bill_Coley The one God promises to raise up in Jeremiah 23.6 is clearly a human person, and NOT a member of a Godhead (1. He will be a descendant of David's line; 2. God refers to him as "he" and "him.")

    Where in the Jeremiah 23:5-6 is "NOT a member of a Godhead" ? appears definition that a human cannot be God is being read into the text where LORD (YHVH) says righteous descendant of King David has name: LORD (YHVH) Righteousness (Tzidkenu) so human shares LORD God name.

    @Bill_Coley Psalm 110 is a royal psalm, which refers to a specific - and very human - king to whom God ("the Lord") swears support and protection (Psalm 110.4-7).

    Please answer Psalm 110:1 question posed by Jesus in Matthew 22:43-45 (NLT) Jesus responded, “Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit, call the Messiah ‘my Lord’? For David said, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’ Since David called the Messiah ‘my Lord,’ how can the Messiah be his son?”

    @Bill_Coley Isaiah 9.6-7 refers to a child already born in the prophet's time. The child is a sign of God's predicted intervention on behalf of people who have walked in great darkness (Isaiah 9.2). In his Gospel, Matthew describes the launch of Jesus' ministry "in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali" as the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy (Matthew 4.13-16).

    Where in the text is "a child already born in the prophet's time" that fulfills Isaiah 9.6-7 prophecy, which includes being the eternal ruler ?


    @Bill_Coley I think you mischaracterize the John 10 passage, whose rhetorical transaction I read as follows: ...

    Noticed Isaiah 43:13 snatch reference (Scripture explaining Scripture) missing from your John 10.27-29 reading:

    John 10:28-29 (NLT) No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.

    Isaiah 43:12-13 (NLT) You are witnesses that I am the only God,” says the Lord. “From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand. No one can undo what I have done.” 

    John 10:30 (NLT) The Father and I are one.” 

    @Bill_Coley John 10.31 - People pick up stones to kill Jesus.

    While remembering Exodus 20:13 (NLT) "You must not murder" commandment, please explain motivation to kill Jesus.

    @Bill_Coley THAT IS, in John 10 Jesus does NOT claim to be God. He claims to be set apart by God for a particular role - the Son of God - just as God set others apart for their roles. Jesus makes clear his subservience to God in John 10.37-38, where he describes what he does as his Father's work.

    Revelation 2:18...23 (NLT) This is the message from the Son of God, ... all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve. 

    Jeremiah 17:9-10 (NLT) “The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I, the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.” 

    Proverbs 16:2 (NLT) People may be pure in their own eyes, but the Lord examines their motives.

    Proverbs 21:2 (NLT) People may be right in their own eyes, but the Lord examines their heart. 

    Could subservience of Jesus to God be a Love expression of humility and self-control ? (two aspects of Holy Righteous Fruit that pleases God)


    @Bill_Coley IT IS THE TEXT ITSELF that leads me to draw the conclusions I do about biblical texts. It is NOT, NOT, NOT my "belief" that does so. ...  When I contend that there is nothing in Acts 9 or Acts 26 to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God, that means as I read the text itself there is nothing in those chapters to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God.

    Appears your multi-year isolated Scripture snippet text studies (using chapter and verse numbering that has a number of misalignment issues with original language sentences) has resulted in portions of Scripture text becoming unbelievable to you (reflects your choice what to believe): e.g. assertion "I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God." about Matthew 1:18-25 and "When I contend that there is nothing in Acts 9 or Acts 26 to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God, that means as I read the text itself there is nothing in those chapters to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God."

    Paul (Saul) spoke in Acts 26:9-11 (NLT) “I used to believe that I ought to do everything I could to oppose the very name of Jesus the Nazarene. Indeed, I did just that in Jerusalem. Authorized by the leading priests, I caused many believers there to be sent to prison. And I cast my vote against them when they were condemned to death. Many times I had them punished in the synagogues to get them to curse Jesus. I was so violently opposed to them that I even chased them down in foreign cities. 

    Three days after personally encountering Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus, Saul is praying to Lord Jesus, which the Lord Jesus told to Ananias:

    Acts 9:11-12 (NLT) The Lord said, “Go over to Straight Street, to the house of Judas. When you get there, ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul. He is praying to me right now. I have shown him a vision of a man named Ananias coming in and laying hands on him so he can see again.” 

    Ananias objected in Acts 9:13-14 (NLT) “But Lord,” exclaimed Ananias, “I’ve heard many people talk about the terrible things this man has done to the believers in Jerusalem! And he is authorized by the leading priests to arrest everyone who calls upon your name.” 

    Ananias obeyed the Lord (Gd) Jesus as described in Acts 9:17 (NLT) So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

    If Saul did not believe Lord Jesus is God, why would Saul be praying to Lord (Gd) Jesus (with prayer being answered via Ananias) ?

    @Bill_Coley If Paul believed Jesus was God in his Acts 9 encounter, why did Paul ask who he was? The question you claim Paul asked is self-answering! - "Who are you, (God)?" means Paul believed the one who spoke to him was God. That's CLEARLY not the meaning of Paul's question. Paul's use of the word "lord" on the Damascus road is NOT a reference to deity, but rather to authority.

    Diety identification question includes authority. Saul believed he was zealously doing Gd's will - Galatians 1:13-14 (NLT) You know what I was like when I followed the Jewish religion—how I violently persecuted God’s church. I did my best to destroy it. I was far ahead of my fellow Jews in my zeal for the traditions of my ancestors. & Phillippians 3:5-6 (NLT) I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault. 

    Acts 9:3-4 (NLT) As he was approaching Damascus on this mission, a light from heaven suddenly shone down around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?” 

    Gd's "persecuting" question to Saul begins zealous belief shattering followed by answer of Jesus to Saul's identification question: "Who are you, Lord (Gd) ?" so Saul is praying to the Lord (Gd) Jesus three days later with the Lord (Gd) Jesus communicating prayer & answer to Ananias.

    By the way, "That's CLEARLY not the meaning of Paul's question" assertion assumes faith belief of "Paul CLEARLY does not believe Jesus is God" (another way to express your "When I contend that there is nothing in Acts 9 or Acts 26 to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God, that means as I read the text itself there is nothing in those chapters to suggest Paul believes Jesus is God." faith belief likely accumulated from many text doubting thoughts)

    @Bill_Coley There is no indication in Paul's presentations that he believed the Messiah was God (e.g. Romans 1.4-5)

    Christ = the Messiah so opening sentence of Romans reflects Saul's zealous belief shattering Q & A encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus. Also Paul knew Jewish usage of Lord (Adonai) meaning Gd (YHWH). Simple identification clause reflects belief Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν (literally Jesus Christ the Lord of us). How can Jesus Christ be Lord (diety authority in our life) if believe Jesus is not God ?

    The 2006 OpenText.Org Syntactic Clause Analysis shows one Greek sentence is Romans 1:1-7 (NLT) This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ (the Messiah) Jesus, chosen by God to be an apostle and sent out to preach his Good News. God promised this Good News long ago through his prophets in the holy Scriptures. The Good News is about his Son. In his earthly life he was born into King David’s family line, and he was shown to be the Son of God when he was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. He is Jesus Christ (the Messiah) our Lord (Gd). Through Christ (the Messiah), God has given us the privilege and authority as apostles to tell Gentiles everywhere what God has done for them, so that they will believe and obey him, bringing glory to his name. And you are included among those Gentiles who have been called to belong to Jesus Christ (the Messiah). I am writing to all of you in Rome who are loved by God and are called to be his own holy people.


    @Bill_Coley Leviticus 24.6 concerns the stacking of loaves of bread on a gold table. What "blasphemy" do you contend the Jews found there to hold against Paul?

    My apologies for Leviticus 24.6 that proves me being a human while typing Leviticus 24:16 (context is Leviticus 24:10-23)


    @Bill_Coley "Paul's personal story in Acts 22 and 26" does NOT report his "knowing Jesus is Lord Gd." If you contend that it does, rather than telling me that my "belief" keeps me from seeing where it does so, please cite the specific applicable verse(s) so that we can engage their content.

    Paul choose to obey commands spoken by Lord (Gd) Jesus from Heaven:

    Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament shows one long Greek Sentence is Acts 26:1b-23 (NLT) So Paul, gesturing with his hand, started his defense: “I am fortunate, King Agrippa, that you are the one hearing my defense today against all these accusations made by the Jewish leaders, for I know you are an expert on all Jewish customs and controversies. Now please listen to me patiently! “As the Jewish leaders are well aware, I was given a thorough Jewish training from my earliest childhood among my own people and in Jerusalem. If they would admit it, they know that I have been a member of the Pharisees, the strictest sect of our religion. Now I am on trial because of my hope in the fulfillment of God’s promise made to our ancestors. In fact, that is why the twelve tribes of Israel zealously worship God night and day, and they share the same hope I have. Yet, Your Majesty, they accuse me for having this hope! Why does it seem incredible to any of you that God can raise the dead? “I used to believe that I ought to do everything I could to oppose the very name of Jesus the Nazarene. Indeed, I did just that in Jerusalem. Authorized by the leading priests, I caused many believers there to be sent to prison. And I cast my vote against them when they were condemned to death. Many times I had them punished in the synagogues to get them to curse Jesus. I was so violently opposed to them that I even chased them down in foreign cities. “One day I was on such a mission to Damascus, armed with the authority and commission of the leading priests. About noon, Your Majesty, as I was on the road, a light from heaven brighter than the sun shone down on me and my companions. We all fell down, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is useless for you to fight against my will.’ “ ‘Who are you, lord (Gd)?’ I asked. “And the Lord (Gd) replied, ‘I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting. Now get to your feet! For I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant and witness. Tell people that you have seen me, and tell them what I will show you in the future. And I will rescue you from both your own people and the Gentiles. Yes, I am sending you to the Gentiles to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God’s people, who are set apart by faith in me.’ “And so, King Agrippa, I obeyed that vision from heaven. I preached first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that all must repent of their sins and turn to God—and prove they have changed by the good things they do. Some Jews arrested me in the Temple for preaching this, and they tried to kill me. But God has protected me right up to this present time so I can testify to everyone, from the least to the greatest. I teach nothing except what the prophets and Moses said would happen—that the Messiah would suffer and be the first to rise from the dead, and in this way announce God’s light to Jews and Gentiles alike.” 

    FYI: various Syntactic Greek New Testaments show variety of sentence boundaries (at times agreeing while other times being different).


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Assertion "I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God." affirms question "What is unbelievable about Jesus literally being the Son of God ?" validity while not providing any insight about what is unbelievable (plus implies some words inspired by One True Gd thru humans => unbelievable).

    @Bill_Coley I am certain there are mistakes in the Bible (e.g. tell me what was the second temptation Jesus faced from the devil in the wilderness, and please cite the specific verse(s) that in your view prove your answer to be correct) One of those mistakes, I believe, is the claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER DEBATE!!!!!!!! so I'm not going to defend my conclusion here. Instead, I simply tell you that because of that conclusion - which is based on biblical as well as other grounds - I don't believe Jesus is literally the Son of God, i.e. the product of God's impregnation of Mary.

    This TEXT-BASED thread started with group discussion of Christology Scripture texts so question "What is unbelievable about Jesus literally being the Son of God ?" is appropriate. @Wolfgang started thread God was born of a woman ??? a year ago.

    NAC Commentary of Matthew 4:5-7 includes a footnote hypothesis: Matthew’s order is probably more chronological (cf. τότε—[“then”] in v. 5) and Luke’s more thematic (Luke 4:1–13), in which the temple episode appears last as a climax in keeping with Luke’s distinctive emphasis on Jesus’ relationship with the temple.

     Craig Blomberg, Matthew, vol. 22, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1992).

    From a degree of separation perspective, personally prefer Matthew (one degree away from Jesus) over Luke (two degrees away).


    @Bill_Coley So I ask you again for citations of texts in which the expressions NT writers use to describe Jesus report the writers' belief that Jesus was God.

    While pondering Luke 1:1-4, wondered how a characteristic accurate account could be written for something unbelievable (especially when accurate account includes Godly actions associated with the Lord Jesus: e.g. Receiving Worship, Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, sins forgiven except blasphemy against Holy Spirit, multitude of miracles, commands to obey Jesus, ...). Matthew is one of the eleven disciples in Matthew 28:16 that does not call attention to himself while conveying his belief in Jesus as Lord God while writing God's Great Commission.

    Matthew 28:16-20 (NLT) Then the eleven disciples left for Galilee, going to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him—but some of them doubted!  Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” 

    Mark 1:1 (NLT) This is the Good News about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God.

    Luke 1:1-4 (NLT) Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples. Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write an accurate account for you, most honorable Theophilus, so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught. 

    John 20:30-31 (NLT) The disciples saw Jesus do many other miraculous signs in addition to the ones recorded in this book. But these are written so that you may continue to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life by the power of his name. 


    @Bill_Coley To assert that Jesus is "the Holy One of God" makes clear a belief that Jesus is not God. "Holy" means set apart. "Of God" means belonging to or coming from God. In my view, the distinction is clear: Jesus is one whom God set apart.

    We disagree about degree of difference between Jesus and God: e.g. two distinct entities OR two voices within One God's commUnity of Love.


    @Wolfgang @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus , I will refrain from further exchange in this or similar exchanges we've had ... for the simple reason that I find it too exhausting trying to correspond in a logical and reasonable manner with no equivalent counterpart at the other end. There appears to be no value in explaining to you aynthing in a logical fashion or use a related illustration for a point made, etc ... since you seem unable to see what I consider even the most simple and plain statements from Scripture.

    I admit, I could have this impression because I am the one who has no idea what logic and reason and reading of plain text really is. Thus, I'd rather take the blame instead of continuing with what only causes frustration for me.

    Belief about Jesus affects reading richness/understanding of Scripture (with two Hebrew names from Jeremiah 23:5-6):

    Colossians 3:12-17 (ESV) Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord ( יהוה ) has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ ( יהוה צדקנו ) rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ ( יהוה צדקנו ) dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God ( יהוה ). And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord ( יהוה ) Jesus, giving thanks to God ( יהוה ) the Father through him. 

    Voices of Lord ( יהוה ) Jesus ( יהוה צדקנו ) and God ( יהוה ) the Father are distinct while eternally being One God ( יהוה ).

    Personally Thankful for my heart experiencing indescribable Peace of God ( יהוה ) in Christ ( יהוה צדקנו ), which also includes Fruit of the Holy Spirit aspects that cannot be adequately expressed using words. Thankful for the day the Lord ( יהוה ) has made so can Rejoice and be glad in it. Thankful for sunrise/sunset red reminders about being redeemed by Holy blood of Jesus. Thankful for new songs in my heart to worship God 😍

    Keep Smiling 😋

  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 606

    Greetings Keep Smiling,

    Actually.........

    יהוה צדקנו (YHWH Tsidkenu) would translate to The YHWH is our Vindicator , not to Christ or Jesus!

    ישוע (Yeshua) is most likely the Hebrew abbreviated form of the name יהושׁוע(Yehoshua) that the greek Ἰησοῦς (Iesous/Jesus) was attempting to render.

    המשיח (Ha-Mashiach / The Messiah) is Χριστός (Christos / Christ) in Greek NT


    Grace and Peace

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Jesus answered plainly under oath (by the Living Gd) using Jewish expressions: (NLT has * references)

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) "You have said it." where "it" confirms identity of "the Messiah, the Son of God" (God's Priestly King of Righteousness)

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand. => * Psalm 110:1

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven." => * Daniel 7:13

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) “I Am. => * Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ...")

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand => * Psalm 110:1

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven.” => * Daniel 7:13

       Luke 22:67 (NLT) "If I tell you, you won’t believe me. ... (rightly declared heart condition of Jewish humans conducting religious "trial")

       Luke 22:68 (NLT) But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God’s right hand.” => * Psalm 110:1

       Luke 22:70 (NLT) “You say that I am.” => Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ....")

    ANd nowhere in these verses does Jesus claim himself to be God. Especially, when considering Jewish expressions (!!!), there is NOTHING in these verses to indicate that Jesus claimed to be YHWH, God.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jesus answered plainly under oath (by the Living Gd) using Jewish expressions: (NLT has * references)

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) "You have said it." where "it" confirms identity of "the Messiah, the Son of God" (God's Priestly King of Righteousness)

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand. => * Psalm 110:1

       Matthew 26:64 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven." => * Daniel 7:13

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) “I Am. => * Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ...")

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand => * Psalm 110:1

       Mark 14:62 (NLT) and coming on the clouds of heaven.” => * Daniel 7:13

       Luke 22:67 (NLT) "If I tell you, you won’t believe me. ... (rightly declared heart condition of Jewish humans conducting religious "trial")

       Luke 22:68 (NLT) But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at God’s right hand.” => * Psalm 110:1

       Luke 22:70 (NLT) “You say that I am.” => Exodus 3:14 (plus later spoken by Jesus in Revelation 2:23 "I Am the one ....")

    @Wolfgang ANd nowhere in these verses does Jesus claim himself to be God. Especially, when considering Jewish expressions (!!!), there is NOTHING in these verses to indicate that Jesus claimed to be YHWH, God.

    While remembering Exodus 20:13 (NLT) "You must not murder" commandment, please explain Jewish motivation to kill Jesus for blasphemy (does not agree with assertion "there is NOTHING in these verses to indicate that Jesus claimed to be YHWH, God."). Searching first five books of the Bible for "put to death" finds many actionable causes: e.g. Exodus 31:15 for working on Sabbath (Jesus healing people on Sabbath was a reason for some Jewish Religious Leaders wanting Jesus to die).

    Jewish legal death penalty requires two or more witnesses per Numbers 35:30 and Deuteronomy 17:6, which explains Jewish Religious Judge (High Priest) comment about not needing further witnesses because High Priest & Sanhedrin members interpreted Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jesus as blasphemy cursing Gd (so Jesus was crucified for who Jesus is, "The King of the Jews", not anything Jesus had done).

    Please answer Psalm 110:1 question posed by Jesus in Matthew 22:43-45 (NLT) Jesus responded, “Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit, call the Messiah ‘my Lord’? For David said, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’ Since David called the Messiah ‘my Lord,’ how can the Messiah be his son?”

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,690

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted

    Please answer Psalm 110:1 question posed by Jesus in Matthew 22:43-45 (NLT) Jesus responded, “Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit, call the Messiah ‘my Lord’? For David said, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’ Since David called the Messiah ‘my Lord,’ how can the Messiah be his son?”

    The answer ist very simple => Messiah could be David's son because he is a human being who is of the line of David.

    What is your self-inflicted and self-induced problem???????

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