Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    All the angels are of God אלהים are (gods). Men whom are chosen to rule or judge are spoken as gods. אלהים Not as God but as gods (אלהים).

    Aren't angels called (sons) ? Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them. (Job 1:6) Wouldn't this include Jesus. the son of God, the Bright Morning Star?

    Even Morning Stars are angels. "When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?" (Job 38:7)

    Footnotes

    A Hebrew idiom that refers to angelic sons of God.

    Marginal References

    Revelation 22: “‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’”

     Ge 6:2; 1Ki 22:19; Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Ps 89:6

    Genesis 6:2  the sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose.

    1 Kings 22:19  Mi·caiʹah then said: “Therefore, hear the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left.

    Job 1:6  Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.

    Job 2:6  Afterward the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them to take his station before Jehovah.

    Psalm 89: 6  For who in the skies can compare to Jehovah? Who among the sons of God is like Jehovah?


    “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.   But you will die just as men do; And like any other prince you will fall!’”

    All the angels are of God אלהים which are sons are also (gods). elohim אלהים SEE CHART highlighted in purple

    Screenshot (296).png


    When speaking about one of these gods... it's proper to speak about one of them as (a god)◄ 2316. theos ►

    Strong's Concordance

    theos: God, a god

    Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine

    Transliteration: theos

    Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)

    Definition: God, a god

    Usage: (a) God, (b) a god, generally


    Are now going to claim that Jesus is not the Son of God? "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered." (Hebrews 5:8) So how is it you can use (a god) when referring to Moses when there is no (a) in Hebrew? How is it you can use (a son) when referring to Jesus when there is no (a) in Greek?

    The LEB has no problem using the letter (a) for (a son) in Hebrews 5:8. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered,

    The LEB has no problem using the letters (as) and (a) for as a god in Exodus 7:1. And Yahweh said to Moses, “See, I have made you as a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet.

    Can you say Hypocrite?

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    Which scenario shows more about Holy ❤️ אלהים God's Love:

    A) A created being (e.g. archangel Michael as believed by JW.org OR a special annointed man as believed by @Bill_Coley) being the Holy sin substitute sacrifice for other created beings. How much personal pain would Holy אלהים God have experienced by the death of a created being ?

    B) Holy אלהים God designing a way for an eternal portion of Holy אלהים God's spirit to be clothed in Holy human flesh while an eternal portion of Holy אלהים God's spirit remained being King Righteous over all the universe. How much personal pain would Holy אלהים God have experienced by the death of Holy human flesh containing an eternal portion of Holy אלהים God's spirit ?


    Current Jewish reading of the Old Covenant yearly (parashot) leaves out Isaiah 52:13–53:12 LEB =>

    Look, my servant shall achieve success; he shall be exalted, and he shall be lifted up, and he shall be very high. 

    Just as many were appalled at you — such was his appearance beyond human disfigurement, 

    and his form beyond the sons of mankind — so he shall sprinkle many nations; because of him, kings shall shut their mouths. 

    For they shall see what has not been told them, and they shall consider with full attention what they have not heard. 

    Who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of יהוה Yahweh been revealed? 

    For he went up like a shoot before him, and like a root from dry ground. 

    He had no form and no majesty that we should see him, and no appearance that we should take pleasure in him. 

    He was despised and rejected by men, a man of suffering, and acquainted with sickness, 

    and like one from whom others hide their faces, he was despised, and we did not hold him in high regard. 

    However, he was the one who lifted up our sicknesses, and he carried our pain, 

    yet we ourselves assumed him stricken, struck down by אלהים God and afflicted. 

    But he was pierced for our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; 

    the chastisement for our peace was upon him, and by his wounds we were healed. 

    All of us have wandered about like sheep; we each have turned to his own way; 

    and יהוה Yahweh let fall on him the iniquity of us all. 

    He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; 

    he was brought like a lamb to the slaughter, and like a sheep is dumb before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth. 

    He was taken by restraint of justice, and who concerned himself with his generation? 

    For he was cut off from the land of the living; he received a blow because of the transgression of my people. 

    He made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, 

    although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 

    Yet יהוה Yahweh was pleased to crush him; he made him sick. 

    If he places his life a guilt offering, he will see offspring. 

    He will prolong days, and the will of יהוה Yahweh will succeed in his hand. 

    From the trouble of his life he will see; he will be satisfied. 

    In his knowledge, the righteous one, my servant, shall declare many righteous, and he is the one who will bear their iniquities. 

    Therefore, I will divide to him a portion among the many, and with the strong ones he will divide bounty, 

    because he poured his life out to death and was counted with the transgressors; 

    and he was the one who bore the sin of many and will intercede for the transgressors. 

    Lesson learned from a rancher is when scripture describes people as sheep, that is NOT a complement. Sheep are messy animals with a variety of issues: e.g. unable to clean themselves (like humans are unable to clean themselves from sin against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God).



    @Brother Rando July 29 All the angels are of God אלהים are (gods). 

    What scripture shows אלהים (NOT 'sons of אלהים') describing angels ?

    Your assertion matches Watchtower Society assertion "gods are applied to angels," without any scripture support.


    @Brother Rando July 29 Aren't angels called (sons) ? Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them. (Job 1:6) Wouldn't this include Jesus. the son of God, the Bright Morning Star?

    Yes for angels being described as 'sons of אלהים'.

    Remember in Jeremiah 23:5-6 יהוה declares The Righteous Branch of David (King Jesus, The Son of God, The Son of Man, The Bright Morning Star) shares "יהוה of Righteousness We" name so Job 1:6 shows created angelic beings came to present themselves before יהוה, who is always Holy & Righteous (eternally having three voices in the spirit of One unique אלהים God).

    יהוה The Will became יהוה Father when יהוה The Word left אלהים God's throne to take on human flesh, becoming יהוה The Son (יהוה Salvation).


    @Brother Rando July 29 When speaking about one of these gods... it's proper to speak about one of them as (a god)

    None of the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek) have an indefinite article. Hence, "proper ... a god" is always a human belief interpretion of original language text.

    Many failed prophetic predictions prove the Watchtower (JW.org) is NOT the correct communication channel for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God. Hence JW.org items lack credibility for me to consider: e.g. "Strong's Concordance" for 2316 has combined Strong's 2299 & 2316 into a single entry, which embeds JW.org faith beliefs.

    2299. θεά thĕa, theh-ah´; fem. of 2316; a female deity:—goddess.

     James Strong, A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009), 36.


    2316. θεός thĕŏs, theh´-os; of uncert. affin.; a deity, espec. (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; fig. a magistrate; by Heb. very:—× exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

     James Strong, A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009), 36.


    @Brother Rando July 29 Are now going to claim that Jesus is not the Son of God? "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered." (Hebrews 5:8) So how is it you can use (a god) when referring to Moses when there is no (a) in Hebrew? How is it you can use (a son) when referring to Jesus when there is no (a) in Greek?

    Remember translating is the intersection of original language meaning and destination language meaning within human belief boundaries. To me, every translation is a commentary of the original text.

    @Brother Rando July 29 The LEB has no problem using the letter (a) for (a son) in Hebrews 5:8. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered,

    Literal translation of phrase "... , καίπερ ὢν υἱός, ..." => "... , although he being son, ..." is a bit awkward in English. My disappointment in LEB is NOT italicizing indefinite article (a) in phrase "... . Although he was a son, ..." as an indefinite article (a) was added for smooth English reading.

    Hebrews 5:1-10 LEB (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of people in the things relating to אלהים God, in order that he can offer both gifts and sacrifices on behalf of sins, being able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and led astray, since he himself also is surrounded by weakness, and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins for himself also, as well as for the people. And someone does not take for himself the honor, but is called by אלהים God, just as Aaron also was. Thus also Christ did not glorify himself to become high priest, but the one who said to him, 

    “You are my Son, today I have begotten you,” 

    just as also in another place he says, 

    “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,” 

    who in the days of his flesh offered up both prayers and supplications, with loud crying and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard as a result of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered, and being perfected, he became the source of eternal salvation to all those who obey him, being designated by אלהים God a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. 

    Remember Melchizedek means King Righteous, which is consistent with "יהוה of Righteousness We" name spoken by יהוה in Jeremiah 23:5-6


    Psalm 82 LEB =>

    A psalm of Asaph. 

    אלהים God stands in the divine assembly; he administers judgment in the midst of the אלהים gods. 

    “How long will you judge unjustly and show favoritism to the wicked? Selah 

    Judge on behalf of the helpless and the orphan; provide justice to the afflicted and the poor. 

    Rescue the helpless and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” 

    They do not know or consider. 

    They go about in the darkness, so that all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 

    I have said, “You are אלהים gods, and sons of the Most High, all of you. 

    However, you will die like men, and you will fall like one of the princes.” 

    Rise up, O אלהים God, judge the earth, because you shall inherit all the nations. 

    יהוה Salvation (Jesus) provided truthful explanation about Psalm 82 in John 10:22-42 LEB  (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    Then the feast of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the Portico of Solomon. So the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly!”

    Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep! My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” 

    Then the Jews picked up stones again so that they could stone him.

    Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?”

    The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you are a man, make yourself to be אלהים God!”

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are אלהים gods” ’? If he called them ‘אלהים gods’ to whom the word of אלהים God came — and the scripture cannot be broken — do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of אלהים God’? If I do not do the deeds of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

    So they were seeking again to seize him, and he departed out of their hand. 

    And he went away again on the other side of the Jordan, to the place where John was baptizing at an earlier time, and he stayed there. And many came to him and began to say, “John performed no sign, but everything John said about this man was true!” And many believed in him there. 

    Jesus spoke to a human audience about Psalm 82 & human belief choice. A mystery for me is who is in the Psalm 82 divine assembly (while noting angelic beings were NOT mentioned in Psalm 82).


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    The more you evade the weaker your arguments grow weaker. For example you claim that you are disappointed.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Literal translation of phrase "... , καίπερ ὢν υἱός, ..." => "... , although he being son, ..." is a bit awkward in English. My disappointment in LEB is NOT italicizing indefinite article (a) in phrase "... . Although he was a son, ..." as an indefinite article (a) was added for smooth English reading.

    This is in context with (Isaiah 9:6) as it refers also to (a child) and (a son). LEB has no problem using the letter (a) in order to smooth out English reading. If it wasn't for me pointing out your hypocrisy, these verses would never come to life for you.

    Again YOUR Hypocrisy that God can die is a lie.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus יהוה Salvation (Jesus) provided truthful explanation about Psalm 82 in John 10:22-42 LEB  (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    @Brother Rando I have said, “You are אלהים gods, and sons of the Most High, all of you. 

    However, you will die like men, and you will fall like one of the princes.” 

    But just like the wicked religious who denied the Christ, you are doing the same. You are referring אלהים gods to GOD when it is referring to angels and men who sinned.

    Jehovah and Jesus never sinned, "God takes his place in the divine assembly In the middle of the gods he judges:" by means of JESUS CHRIST. Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?  If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36  do you say to m* whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

    Therefore Jesus can be referred to as a child, a son, a god, a morning star.


    God is not a man. (Numbers 23:19)

    God is not a son of mankind. (Numbers 23:19)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Brother Rando August 8 Here's proof that angels are elohim (gods)

    @Brother Rando August 8 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him. (Hebrews 1:6)

    Let all who serve an image be ashamed, those who boast about idols. Worship him, all you gods אֱלֹהִֽים (Psalm 97:7)

    Literal translation of Hebrews 1:6 phrase "... λέγει· Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ. " => " ... saying: and worship Him all angels of/from God." Genitive grammatical spelling θεοῦ ( theou) has of/from in English translation: genitive use = belonging to (of) & ablatival use = from. Your assertion 'proof that angels are elohim (gods)' has the verb "to be" connecting angels & elohim (gods), which is significantly different than Hebrews 1:6 phrase that does NOT have the verb "to be".

    Context for Hebrews 1:6 begins with Hebrews 1:1-14 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>

    Although אלהים God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world, who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power. When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become by so much better than the angels, by as much as he has inherited a more excellent name than theirs. 

    For to which of the angels did he ever say, 

    “You are my son, today I have begotten you,” 

    and again, 

    “I will be his father, and he will be my son”? 

    And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 

    “And let all the angels of אלהים God worship him.” 

    And concerning the angels he says, 

    “The one who makes his angels winds, and his servants a flame of fire,” 

    but concerning the Son, 

    “Your throne, O אלהים God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom. 

    You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this אלהים God, your אלהים God, has anointed you 

    with the olive oil of joy more than your companions. 

    And, 

    “You, יהוה Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of your hands; 

    they will perish, but you continue, and they will all become old like a garment, and like a robe you will roll them up, 

    and like a garment they will be changed; but you are the same, and your years will not run out.” 

    But to which of the angels has he ever said, 

    “Sit down at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” 

    Are they not all spirits engaged in special service, sent on assignment for the sake of those who are going to inherit salvation? 

    Angels are not mentioned in Psalm 97:1-12 LEB =>

    יהוה Yahweh is king! Let the earth rejoice; let many coastlands be glad. 

    Cloud and thick darkness are surrounding him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne. 

    Fire goes before him, and devours his enemies round about. 

    His lightnings light the world; the earth sees and trembles. 

    The mountains melt like wax at the presence of יהוה Yahweh, at the presence of the Lord of all the earth. 

    The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory. 

    Let all who serve an image be ashamed, those who boast about idols. 

    Worship him, all you אלהים gods. 

    Zion hears and is glad, and the daughters of Judah rejoice because of your judgments, O יהוה Yahweh. 

    For you, O יהוה Yahweh, are most high over all the earth. 

    You are highly exalted above all אלהים gods. 

    You who love יהוה Yahweh, hate evil. 

    He protects the lives of his faithful; he delivers them from the hand of the wicked. 

    Light is sown for the righteous, and joy for the upright in heart. 

    Be glad in יהוה Yahweh, you righteous, and give thanks to his holy name. 

    Searching Lexham English Bible for verses having the words "angels & idols" finds nothing. In contrast, searching for "human & idols" finds three verses: Psalm 115:4, Isaiah 2:20, and Revelation 9:20


    Question for @Brother Rando & @the_MadJw:

    What scripture shows אלהים (NOT 'sons of אלהים') describing angels ?

    Assertion "Here's proof that angels are elohim (gods)" by @Brother Rando matches Watchtower Society (JW.org) assertion "gods are applied to angels," without any scripture support.


    @Brother Rando August 3 This is in context with (Isaiah 9:6) as it refers also to (a child) and (a son). LEB has no problem using the letter (a) in order to smooth out English reading. If it wasn't for me pointing out your hypocrisy, these verses would never come to life for you.

    Literal translation of Isaiah 9:5 phrase "כי-ילד ילד-לנו בן נתן-לנו" => "for child been born for/to we son been given for/to we" is awkward English. Indefinite article (a) is consistent with singular child & son nouns.

    Chapter & verse numbering in Hebrew can be different than chapter & verse numbering in English: e.g. Hebrew Isaiah 9:5 = English Isaiah 9:6

    Isaiah 9:1-7 LEB =>

    But there will be no gloom for those who were in distress. 

    In former times he treated the land of Zebulun and Naphtali with contempt, but in the future he will honor the way of the sea beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. 

    The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; light has shined on those who lived in a land of darkness. 

    You have made the nation numerous; you have not made the joy great. 

    They rejoice in your presence as with joy at the harvest, as they rejoice when they divide plunder. 

    For you have shattered the yoke of its burden and the stick of its shoulder, the rod of its oppressor, on the day of Midian. 

    For every boot that marches and shakes the earth and garment rolled in blood will be for burning — fire fuel. 

    For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. 

    And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 

    His dominion will grow continually, and to peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it with justice and righteousness now and forever. 

    The zeal of יהוה Yahweh of hosts will do this. 

    Fulfillment of Isaiah 9 great light prophecy is written in Matthew 4:12-17 LEB =>

    Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. And leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali, in order that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled, who said, 

    “Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, toward the sea, on the other side of the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles — the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, and the ones who sit in the land and shadow of death, a light has dawned on them.” 

    From that time on, Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, because the kingdom of heaven is near.”

    Jewish scripture at the time of Rabbi Jesus did NOT have chapter & verse numbering so great light prophetic fulfillment would have brought context to mind. Gospel of John includes words spoken by יהוה Salvation (Jesus) in John 8:12-59 LEB (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world! The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    So the Pharisees said to him, “You testify concerning yourself! Your testimony is not true.”

    Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I testify concerning myself, my testimony is true, because I know where I have come from and where I am going. But you do not know where I have come from or where I am going. You judge according to externals; I do not judge anyone. But even if I judge, my judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent me. And even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true. I am the one who testifies concerning myself, and the Father who sent me testifies concerning me.” 

    So they were saying to him, “Where is your father?”

    Jesus replied, “You know neither me nor my Father! If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.”

    He spoke these words by the treasury while teaching in the temple courts, and no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come. 

    So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me and will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come!”

    Then the Jews began to say, “Perhaps he will kill himself, because he is saying, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ ”

    And he said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.” 

    So they began to say to him, “Who are you?”

    Jesus said to them, “What I have been saying to you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but the one who sent me is true, and the things which I heard from him, these things I say to the world.”

    (They did not know that he was speaking to them about the Father.) 

    Then Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will recognize that I am he, and I do nothing from myself, but just as the Father taught me, I say these things. And the one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do the things that are pleasing to him.”

    While he was saying these things, many believed in him. 

    Then Jesus said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you continue in my word you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    They replied to him, “We are descendants of Abraham and have not been enslaved to anyone at any time. How do you say, ‘You will become free’?”

    Jesus replied to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, that everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. And the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. So if the son sets you free, you will be truly free. I know that you are descendants of Abraham. But you are seeking to kill me, because my word makes no progress among you. I speak the things that I have seen with the Father; so also you do the things that you have heard from the Father.” 

    They answered and said to him, “Abraham is our father!”

    Jesus said to them, “If you are children of Abraham, do the deeds of Abraham! But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who spoke to you the truth which I heard from God. This Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father!” 

    They said to him, “We were not born from sexual immorality! We have one father, אלהים God!”

    Jesus said to them, “If אלהים God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from אלהים God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me. Why do you not understand my way of speaking? Because you are not able to listen to my message. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father! That one was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand firm in the truth, because truth is not in him. Whenever he speaks the lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I am telling the truth, you do not believe me. Who among you convicts me concerning sin? If I am telling the truth, why do you not believe me? The one who is from אלהים God listens to the words of אלהים God. Because of this you do not listen — because you are not of אלהים God.” 

    The Jews answered and said to him, “Do we not correctly say that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

    Jesus replied, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me! But I do not seek my own glory. There is one who seeks and judges! Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never experience death forever.” 

    The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham and the prophets died, and you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death forever.’ You are not greater than our father Abraham who died, are you? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself to be?”

    Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. The one who glorifies me is my Father, about whom you say, ‘He is our אלהים God.’ And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you! But I know him and I keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” 

    So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”

    Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!”

    Then they picked up stones in order to throw them at him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple courts. 

    What had יהוה Salvation (Jesus) said for stones to be picked up by Jewish religious lawyers per Leviticus 24:10-23 LEB =>

    And an Israelite woman’s son, and he was an Egyptian man’s son, went out in the midst of the Israelites; and the Israelite woman’s son and an Israelite man fought in the camp. Then the Israelite woman’s son blasphemed the name, and he cursed, so they brought him to Moses — and the name of his mother was Shelomith the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan. Then they put him in custody so that the matter might be made clear to them in accordance with the mouth of Yahweh. 

    Then יהוה Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, “Bring the curser outside the camp, and all the hearers shall place their hands on his head, and the whole community shall stone him. And you shall speak to the Israelites, saying, ‘Any man when he curses his God shall bear his sin. And he who blasphemes יהוה Yahweh’s name certainly shall be put to death; the whole community certainly shall stone him. As the alien, so the native shall be put to death at blaspheming his name. 

    “ ‘And when a man kills any human being, he certainly shall be put to death. And he who kills a domestic animal must repay for it life in place of life. And when a man causes a physical defect in his fellow citizen according to what he has done, so it shall be done to him: fracture in place of fracture, eye in place of eye, tooth in place of tooth — according to the physical defect he causes to the person, likewise it shall be caused to him. And a killer of a domestic animal must repay for it, and a killer of a human shall be put to death. You must have one norm; as for the alien, so it must be for the native, because I am יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God.’ ” 

    Thus Moses spoke to the Israelites, and they brought the curser outside the camp, and they stoned him with stones, and the Israelites did just as יהוה Yahweh had commanded Moses. 

    To me, the Watchtower Society (JW.org) belief of Jesus being Michael, an archangel, dishonors (curses) יהוה Salvation (Jesus) & יהוה Father. Many failed prophetic predictions prove the Watchtower (JW.org) is NOT the correct communication channel for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God. Righteous destination (death) for dishonoring (cursing) יהוה אלהינו יהוה is eternal separation from Holy immense ❤️ Love of יהוה אלהינו יהוה 


    @Brother Rando August 3 Again YOUR Hypocrisy that God can die is a lie.

    To me, eternal יהוה The Word left God's Throne in Holy Heaven to be clothed in human flesh becoming יהוה Salvation, The Son of Man, & The Son of God. יהוה Salvation truly knew He could lay down the human body and take possession of that human body again = His physical resurrection to be the יהוה good shepherd as described in John 10:1-21 LEB =>

    “Truly, truly I say to you, the one who does not enter through the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up at some other place — that one is a thief and a robber. But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep. For this one the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. Whenever he sends out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. And they will never follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

    Jesus told them this parable, but they did not understand what it was that he was saying to them. 

    Then Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All those who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep do not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved, and will come in and will go out and will find pasture. The thief comes only so that he can steal and kill and destroy; I have come so that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

    “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand, who is not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf approaching and abandons the sheep and runs away — and the wolf seizes them and scatters them — because he is a hired hand and he is not concerned about the sheep. 

    “I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep which are not from this fold. I must bring these also, and they will hear my voice, and they will become one flock — one shepherd. Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father.” 

    Again there was a division among the Jews because of these words. And many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is out of his mind! Why do you listen to him?” Others were saying, “These are not the words of one who is possessed by a demon! A demon is not able to open the eyes of the blind, is it?” 

    Thankfully Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God is my shepherd. Untrustworthy Watchtower Society (JW.org) has the voice of a stranger, who truly does NOT know Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God. Which words are more important: Holy eternal ones spoken/inspired by Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God OR lots of human words published by the Watchtower Society (JW.org) ?


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Thank you for your expression of faith of triune pattern of gods of which I reject being a Christian.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Literal translation of Hebrews 1:6 phrase "... λέγει· Καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες ἄγγελοι θεοῦ. " => " ... saying: and worship Him all angels of/from God." Genitive grammatical spelling θεοῦ ( theou) has of/from in English translation: genitive use = belonging to (of) & ablatival use = from.


    Elohim is Hebrew not Greek.. that is why there is a cross reference of where the Greek scripture came from (The Hebrew Scripture @ )

    • "Worship him, all you gods [elohim]." (Psalm 97:7)
    • And let all the angels of God worship Him. (Hebrews 1:6)


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Your assertion 'proof that angels are elohim (gods)' has the verb "to be" connecting angels & elohim (gods), which is significantly different than Hebrews 1:6 phrase that does NOT have the verb "to be".

    Okay, you never said that before, so here you go proving Jesus is the I am which comes from the words "to be" which proves he is the angel of Jehovah.

    Strong's Concordance

    eimi: I exist, I am

    Original Word: εἰμί

    Part of Speech: Verb

    Transliteration: eimi

    Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')

    Definition: I exist, I am

    Usage: I am, exist.

    HELPS Word-studies

    1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be")


    “For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,” (Acts 27:23) If angels bother you, why not interchange the angel with the son? But if this angel doesn't pardon your transgression, what do you think will happen to you? (Exodus 23:20-21)

    • “For there stood by me this night the son of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,” (Acts 27:23)

    You want to give the Watchtower and JW.org credit for the LEB and Biblehub. I am fine with that. Thank you for the credit. Have a great day.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    Question for @Brother Rando & @the_MadJw:

    What scripture shows אלהים (NOT 'sons of אלהים') describing angels ?

    Assertion "Here's proof that angels are elohim (gods)" by @Brother Rando matches Watchtower Society (JW.org) assertion "gods are applied to angels," without any scripture support.

    My internet search of site:JW.org for gods angels Jewish did not find the Watchtower Society showing ancient Jewish interpretation of Hebrews Psalm 97:7 אלהים as angels in the Greek Septuagint, which appears in the 2012 translation of Psalm 96:1-12 Lexham English Septuagint (LES) =>

    The Lord rules! The earth will rejoice exceedingly. Let the many islands be gladdened. Cloud and darkness are around him. Righteousness and judgment are upholding his throne. Fire will go forth before him and will burn up his enemies in a circle. His lightning illuminated the inhabited earth. The earth saw and was shaken. The mountains melted as beeswax from the face of the Lord, all the earth from the face of the Lord. The heavens reported his righteousness, and all the peoples saw his glory. Let them be dishonored, all those who worship carved idols, those who pride themselves in their idols. Worship him, all his angels! Zion heard and was gladdened, and the daughters of Judah rejoiced exceedingly because of your judgments, O Lord, because you are the Lord Most High over all the earth. You were exalted exceedingly beyond all the gods. Those who love the Lord hate evil. The Lord guards the souls of his holy ones. From the hand of sinners he will rescue them. Light grew up to the righteous one, and to the upright ones in their heart there is joy. Be gladdened, O righteous ones, in the Lord, and give thanks to the memory of his holiness.

    Could the untrustworthy Watchtower Society (JW.org) be guilty of faith belief plagiarism: Jewish interpretation of אלהים as angels in Greek Septuagint Psalm 96:7, a couple centuries prior to human birth of יהוה Salvation ?

    Hebrew words for angels are NOT in the Hebrew Psalm 97 text:

    4397. מַֽלְאָךְ malʾâk, mal-awk´; from an unused root mean. to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; spec. of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):—ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

    4398. מַלְאַךְ malʾak (Chald.), mal-ak´; corresp. to 4397; an angel:—angel.

     James Strong, A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009), 66.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Your assertion 'proof that angels are elohim (gods)' has the verb "to be" connecting angels & elohim (gods), which is significantly different than Hebrews 1:6 phrase that does NOT have the verb "to be".

    @Brother Rando August 11Okay, you never said that before, so here you go proving Jesus is the I am which comes from the words "to be" which proves he is the angel of Jehovah.

    Phrase "angels are elohim (gods)" has verb "are" (a form of English "to be" verb) while phrase "angels of/from god" does NOT have a "to be" verb: e.g. "are" (personally puzzled by @Brother Rando "proving Jesus" that was not in my thoughts about word phrase differences: to me, "are" & of/from are significantly different & NOT interchangeable).

    Puzzling @Brother Rando proof assertion lacks Jesus (יהוה Salvation) speaking words from יהוה Father showing "the angel of Jehovah".

    The parable of weeds among the wheat in Matthew 13:24-30 LEB =>

    He put before them another parable, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his people were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat and went away. So when the wheat sprouted and yielded grain, then the darnel appeared also. So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have darnel?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ So the slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, “No, lest when you gather the darnel you uproot the wheat together with it. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the season of the harvest I will tell the reapers, “First gather the darnel and tie it into bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my storehouse.” ’ ” 

     Parable interpretation is in Matthew 13:36-43 LEB =>

    Then he left the crowds and came into the house, and his disciples came to him saying, “Explain the parable of the darnel in the field to us.” So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world. And the good seed — these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear! 

    What Holy inspired word(s) in Matthew 13:36-43 describe Jesus (יהוה Salvation) ?

    Would Michael, one of the archangels, obey The Son of Man to do Holy Righteous יהוה Will ?


    @Brother Rando August 11 You want to give the Watchtower and JW.org credit for the LEB and Biblehub. I am fine with that. Thank you for the credit. Have a great day.

    Puzzling credit assertion. LEB was published by Lexham Press (part of Faithlife Corporation) & designed for use side by side with original language text. Bible hub is a production of the Online Parallel Bible Project, a different organization.

    Many failed prophetic predictions prove the Watchtower (JW.org) is NOT the correct communication channel for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God so Watchtower (JW.org) deception reminds me of darnel, which has an awful eternal destination.

    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Puzzling credit assertion. LEB was published by Lexham Press (part of Faithlife Corporation) & designed for use side by side with original language text. Bible hub is a production of the Online Parallel Bible Project, a different organization.

    Phrase "angels are elohim (gods)" has verb "are" (a form of English "to be" verb) while phrase "angels of/from god" does NOT have a "to be" verb: e.g. "are" (personally puzzled by @Brother Rando "proving Jesus" that was not in my thoughts about word phrase differences: to me, "are" & of/from are significantly different & NOT interchangeable).

    It's the FaithLife Corporation that removed "to be Christ" from scripture. To be more pointed, LEB removed what you needed to believe that the angel of God to be Christ.

    • Demons also came out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.” But rebuking them, he would not permit them to speak, for they knew him "to be" the Christ. (Luke 4:41)
    • So he cured many who were ill with various sicknesses, and he expelled many demons, but he would not let the demons speak, for they knew him "to be" Christ. (Mark 1:34)


    LEB was published by Lexham Press (part of Faithlife Corporation) rejects Jesus to be the Christ and removed "to be" Christ.

    • And he healed many ⌊who were sick⌋ with various diseases and expelled many demons. And he did not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him "to be" Christ. (False Scripture of the antichrist)


    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Brother Rando August 18 What does "my name is with him" mean in Exodus 23:21?

    @Brother Rando August 18 ANSWER:

    @Brother Rando August 18 In Jesus pre-human existence he appeared to the prophets as the angel of Jehovah, having the authority to forgive sins. Coming to earth he wanted others to know that as the Son of Man (Christ) he would do this and that is why he is Lord of the Sabbath which is also called Christ's Millennial Reign.

    Puzzling assertion because searching Lexham English Bible for verse(s) having two words: angel AND forgive finds nothing. What scripture shows a created angelic being having authority to forgive sin against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ?

    To my reading, the angel having Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's name in him CANNOT forgive any sin, as spoken by Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God in Exodus 23:20-21 LEB =>

    ‘Look, I am about to send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, because he will not forgive your transgression, for my name is in him.

    In contrast is Mark 2:1-12 LEB (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    And when he entered again into Capernaum after some days, it became known that he was at home.

    And many had gathered, so that there was no longer room, not even at the door, and he was speaking the word to them.

    And they came bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. And when they were not able to bring him to him because of the crowd, they removed the roof where he was. And after digging through, they lowered the stretcher on which the paralytic was lying.

    And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Child, your sins are forgiven.” 

    Now some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like this? He is blaspheming! Who is able to forgive sins except אלהים God alone?”

    And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they were reasoning like this within themselves, said to them, “Why are you considering these things in your hearts? Which is easier to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say ‘Get up and pick up your stretcher and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” — he said to the paralytic — “I say to you, get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.”

    And he got up and immediately picked up his stretcher and went out in front of them all, so that they were all amazed and glorified אלהים God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!” 

    Jewish scripture does NOT declare any angel having authority to forgive sin against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God (consistent with reasoning: Who is able to forgive sins except אלהים God alone?)

    Zechariah's Fourth Vision has the angel of יהוה Yahweh speaking יהוה Yahweh words in Zechariah 3:1-10 LEB =>

    And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of יהוה Yahweh; and Satan was standing on his right to accuse him. But יהוה Yahweh said to Satan, “יהוה Yahweh rebukes you, O Satan! יהוה Yahweh who has chosen Jerusalem rebukes you! Is this not a stick snatched from the fire?”

    And Joshua was clothed in filthy garments and was standing before the angel. And he answered and said to the ones standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.”

    And he said to him, “See, I have taken away your guilt from you, and will clothe you with rich garments.”

    And I said, “Let them put a clean headband on his head.”

    And they put a clean headband on his head, and they clothed him with garments. And the angel of יהוה Yahweh was standing by. 

    And the angel of יהוה Yahweh assured Joshua, saying, “Thus says יהוה Yahweh of hosts: ‘If you will walk in my ways, and if you will keep my requirements, then you will judge my house, and you will also guard my courtyards, and I will give to you passageways among these that are standing here. Listen, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions that are sitting before you. For the men are a sign that, look, I am going to bring my servant the Branch. For consider, the stone that I set before Joshua, on one stone are seven eyes. Look, I am going to engrave an inscription on it,’ declares יהוה Yahweh of hosts, ‘and I will remove the guilt of that land in a single day. On that day,’ declares יהוה Yahweh of hosts, ‘you will invite one another under the vine and under the fig tree.’ ” 

    Who took the guilt away from Joshua ?

    To me, יהוה Yahweh of hosts humbly left Holy Heaven to be clothed in human flesh as The Son of Man, who is the King Righteous (Melchizedek) and shares " יהוה of Righteousness we " name as it is written in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>

    “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’

    To me, the pronoun 'our' in phrase ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’ expresses Holy God's point of view as the last two Hebrew words יהוה צדקנו have literal meaning " יהוה of Righteousness we "



    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 15 Puzzling credit assertion. LEB was published by Lexham Press (part of Faithlife Corporation) & designed for use side by side with original language text. Bible hub is a production of the Online Parallel Bible Project, a different organization.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 15 Phrase "angels are elohim (gods)" has verb "are" (a form of English "to be" verb) while phrase "angels of/from god" does NOT have a "to be" verb: e.g. "are" (personally puzzled by @Brother Rando "proving Jesus" that was not in my thoughts about word phrase differences: to me, "are" & of/from are significantly different & NOT interchangeable).

    @Brother Rando August 15 It's the FaithLife Corporation that removed "to be Christ" from scripture. To be more pointed, LEB removed what you needed to believe that the angel of God to be Christ.

    @Brother Rando August 15 * Demons also came out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.” But rebuking them, he would not permit them to speak, for they knew him "to be" the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

    @Brother Rando August 15 * So he cured many who were ill with various sicknesses, and he expelled many demons, but he would not let the demons speak, for they knew him "to be" Christ. (Mark 1:34)

    Luke 4:41 phrase " ὅτι ᾔδεισαν τὸν χριστὸν αὐτὸν εἶναι " has literal translation " because they had known the Christ him to be ", which LEB translators expressed as " because they knew that he was the Christ " using 'was' past tense form of the verb "to be".

    Verb ᾔδεισαν is pluperfect, active, indicative, 3rd person, plural

    pluperfect — The verb tense that normally denotes an action that was completed in the past and whose results existed in the past without respect to whether those results exist in the present. The pluperfect is also called the past perfect.

     Michael S. Heiser and Vincent M. Setterholm, Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology (Lexham Press, 2013; 2013).

    Chapter 4 of Luke has the Greek word ἀγγέλοις (noun, dative, plural, masculine, angels) in Luke 4:10

    Mark 1:34 phrase " καὶ οὐκ ἤφιεν λαλεῖν τὰ δαιμόνια, ὅτι ᾔδεισαν αὐτόν. " has literal translation " and not he was permitting to speak the demons, because they had known him. ", which LEB expressed as " And he did not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him. "

    Mark 1:34 textual apparatus shows Westcott Hort adds two words: ' χριστὸν εἶναι ' => ' Christ to be ' (NOT in Tregelles, NA28/UBS4, & Robinson Pierpont)

    Demons did NOT describe The Christ as an angel while demons had past perfect knowledge of The Christ, The Holy One of Israel, The Son of God.



    Quoting snippets & ordering by @Brother Rando is a puzzling variation of the last shall be first.

    My August 15 comment ended with:

    Puzzling credit assertion. LEB was published by Lexham Press (part of Faithlife Corporation) & designed for use side by side with original language text. Bible hub is a production of the Online Parallel Bible Project, a different organization.

    Many failed prophetic predictions prove the Watchtower (JW.org) is NOT the correct communication channel for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God so Watchtower (JW.org) deception reminds me of darnel, which has an awful eternal destination.

    Earlier my August 15 comment had:

    Phrase "angels are elohim (gods)" has verb "are" (a form of English "to be" verb) while phrase "angels of/from god" does NOT have a "to be" verb: e.g. "are" (personally puzzled by @Brother Rando "proving Jesus" that was not in my thoughts about word phrase differences: to me, "are" & of/from are significantly different & NOT interchangeable).

    Puzzling @Brother Rando proof assertion lacks Jesus (יהוה Salvation) speaking words from יהוה Father showing "the angel of Jehovah".

    The parable of weeds among the wheat in Matthew 13:24-30 LEB =>

    He put before them another parable, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his people were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat and went away. So when the wheat sprouted and yielded grain, then the darnel appeared also. So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have darnel?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ So the slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, “No, lest when you gather the darnel you uproot the wheat together with it. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the season of the harvest I will tell the reapers, “First gather the darnel and tie it into bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my storehouse.” ’ ” 

     Parable interpretation is in Matthew 13:36-43 LEB =>

    Then he left the crowds and came into the house, and his disciples came to him saying, “Explain the parable of the darnel in the field to us.” So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world. And the good seed — these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear! 

    What Holy inspired word(s) in Matthew 13:36-43 describe Jesus (יהוה Salvation) ?

    Would Michael, one of the archangels, obey The Son of Man to do Holy Righteous יהוה Will ?


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ <~~~~The Anti-Christ removes Christ from the scripture

    Now some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like this? He is blaspheming! Who is able to forgive sins except אלהים God alone?”

    Because you have taken a stance against Jesus Christ as the Son of Man and have denied him and now battling against the Lamb of God.

    • And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call ME good? No one is good except God alone." (Mark 10:18)
    • But in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” he said to the paralyzed man: “I say to you, Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.” (Luke 5:24)
    • If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you retain those of anyone, they are retained.” (John 20:23)


    The Jews denied Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God Jehovah, because he applied the Son of Man from the Book of Daniel to himself. And because he called God HIS FATHER, making himself God's Son.

    •  The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.”
    • In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. And for that reason the one who is born will be called holy, God’s Son. (Luke 1:35)
    • Work, not for the food that perishes, but for the food that remains for everlasting life, which the Son of man will give you; for on this one the Father, God himself, has put his seal of approval.”

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    What scripture shows a created angelic being having authority to forgive sin against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ?


    @Brother Rando August 24 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ <~~~~The Anti-Christ removes Christ from the scripture

    Now some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like this? He is blaspheming! Who is able to forgive sins except אלהים God alone?”

    @Brother Rando August 24 Because you have taken a stance against Jesus Christ as the Son of Man and have denied him and now battling against the Lamb of God.

    Has the Watchtower Society interpretation of Scripture effectively removed the meaning of Jesus Christ as eternal יהוה Lord ?

    My friend & יהוה Lord, King Righteous יהוה Salvation, Jesus Christ ❤️ Loves @Brother Rando ❤️ (while NOT liking false faith beilefs copied from the Watchtower Society's JW.org that dishonors & blasphemes Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God)

    To me, the Son of Man describes " יהוה of Righteousness we " who rules on Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's throne. Daniel 7:13-14 LEB =>

    “I continued watching in the visions of the night, and look, with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man was coming, and he came to the Ancient of Days, and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingship that all the peoples, the nations, and languages would serve him; his dominion is a dominion without end that will not cease, and his kingdom is one that will not be destroyed. 

    that is consistent with words spoken by יהוה Salvation in Matthew 28:18-20 LEB =>

    And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.” 


    @Brother Rando August 24 * And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call ME good? No one is good except God alone." (Mark 10:18)

    To me, יהוה Salvation knew the deceitful motivation within a rich person (who refused to sell personal possessions & follow יהוה Salvation to learn more of Holy אלהים God) as described in Mark 10:17-31 LEB (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    And as he was setting out on his way, one individual ran up and knelt down before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do so that I will inherit eternal life?”

    So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except אלהים God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’ ”

    And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth.”

    And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: Go, sell all that you have, and give the proceeds to the poor — and you will have treasure in heaven — and come, follow me.”

    But he looked gloomy at the statement and went away sorrowful, because he had many possessions. 

    And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it is for those who possess wealth to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God!”

    And the disciples were astounded at his words.

    But Jesus answered and said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter into the kingdom ofאלהים God.”

    And they were very astounded, saying to one another, “And who can be saved?”

    Jesus looked at them and said, “With human beings it is impossible, but not with אלהים God. For all things are possible with אלהים God.”

    Peter began to say to him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed you.”

    Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields on account of me and on account of the gospel who will not receive a hundred times as much now in this time — houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, together with persecutions — and in the age to come, eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.” 


    @Brother Rando August 24 * But in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” he said to the paralyzed man: “I say to you, Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.” (Luke 5:24)

    We agree the Son of Man, יהוה Salvation, has authority to forgive sins against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.



    @Brother Rando August 24 * The Jews denied Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God Jehovah, because he applied the Son of Man from the Book of Daniel to himself. And because he called God HIS FATHER, making himself God's Son.

    Every Jew (especially Sanhedrin religious lawyers & judges) had a choice what to do with truthful words spoken by יהוה Salvation: Believe Jesus Christ is eternal יהוה Lord, the Son of Man, who shares " יהוה of Righteousness we " name with Holy Father so יהוה deserves to be worshipped as One unique Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God OR Believe Jesus had cursed Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God so Jesus ought to be killed for the crime of blasphemy against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.

    Every person has a free will choice what to do with truthful words spoken by יהוה Salvation. My choice is 🙏 Praying to Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God asking for help in me to ❤️ Love Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God with all of my heart, all of my mind, all of my soul, & all of my strength so I can truly worship Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God as designed & deserved. I look forward to leaving my human body for travel to Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's throne in heaven so I can fall on my knees to worship Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God & really experience magnificent splendor of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God 😍

    To me, the Watchtower Society has chosen to craftily substitute truthful words spoken by יהוה Salvation with their own interpretation. Many failed prophetic predictions prove the Watchtower (JW.org) has NEVER been the correct communication channel for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God. Which words are more important: Holy eternal ones spoken/inspired by Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God OR lots of human words published by the Watchtower Society (JW.org) ?

    Human words cannot convey the intensity of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ❤️ Love for every human. Righteousness requires ❤️ Love to be freely chosen/believed. Nothing can earn ❤️ Love of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God. Human deeds & words show what the human has freely chosen to ❤️ Love most.


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ

    Not only do you remove Christ from your avatar title but the Logos software you use only uses the Bibles that removed to be Christ from their scripture. (Mark 1:34) <~~~~~ to be Christ was removed from the antichrist.

    @Brother Rando August 24 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ <~~~~The Anti-Christ removes Christ from the scripture

    Now some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak like this? He is blaspheming! Who is able to forgive sins except אלהים God alone?”

    @Brother Rando August 24 Because you have taken a stance against Jesus Christ as the Son of Man and have denied him and now battling against the Lamb of God.

    @Brother Rando August 24 * But in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” he said to the paralyzed man: “I say to you, Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.” (Luke 5:24)

    "God is not the son of man" (Number 23:19)

    "So he cured many who were ill with various sicknesses, and he expelled many demons, but he would not let the demons speak, for they knew him to be Christ." (Mark 1:34 New World Translation)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    Which words are more important: Holy eternal ones spoken/inspired by Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God OR lots of human words published by the Watchtower Society (JW.org) ?

    Many failed prophetic predictions prove the Watchtower (JW.org) has NEVER been the correct communication channel for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.


    @Brother Rando August 29 Not only do you remove Christ from your avatar title but the Logos software you use only uses the Bibles that removed to be Christ from their scripture. (Mark 1:34) <~~~~~ to be Christ was removed from the antichrist.

    For over a decade, my Logos Software Forum avatar title has been "Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)" that is my variation of Philippians 4:4 "Be Ye Rejoicing in the Lord". To me, your false removal assertion about my avatar title reminds me of Exodus 20:16 & Deuteronomy 5:20

    Your removal assertion about Mark 1:34 reminds me of Proverbs 15:31 (as does your@Brother Rando signature having "Bible translierated into over 120 languages." because transliteration is only useful for those who can read & understand the original Biblical languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 23 Mark 1:34 phrase " καὶ οὐκ ἤφιεν λαλεῖν τὰ δαιμόνια, ὅτι ᾔδεισαν αὐτόν. " has literal translation " and not he was permitting to speak the demons, because they had known him. ", which LEB expressed as " And he did not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him. "

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 23 Mark 1:34 textual apparatus shows Westcott Hort adds two words: ' χριστὸν εἶναι ' => ' Christ to be ' (NOT in Tregelles, NA28/UBS4, & Robinson Pierpont)

    The Greek New Testament Edited from Ancient Authorities, with their Various Readings in Full, and the Latin Version of Jerome, by Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, LL.D. was published 1857-1879.

    Westcott & Hort published their compilation of the Greek New Testament in 1881.

    The New Testament in the Original Greek Byzantine Textform, compiled & arranged by Maurice A Robinson & William G. Pierpont was published in 2005.

    The Society of Biblical Literature Greek New Testament (SBLGNT) was published in 2010, with apparatus published in 2011.

    The Society of Biblical Literature, in keeping with its mission to foster biblical scholarship, is pleased to sponsor, in association with Logos Bible Software, a new, critically edited edition of the Greek New Testament. The SBL Greek New Testament (SBLGNT), which is freely available in electronic form (http://www.sblgnt.com), will be useful to students, teachers, translators, and scholars in a wide variety of settings and contexts.

    The 28th revision of the Nestle-Aland (NA28) Greek New Testament was published in 2012, which had a second corrected printing in 2013.

    The Lexham English Bible (LEB) was published in 2012.

    Preface

    With approximately one hundred different English translations of the Bible already published, the reader may well wonder why yet another English version has been produced. Those actually engaged in the work of translating the Bible might answer that the quest for increased accuracy, the incorporation of new scholarly discoveries in the fields of semantics, lexicography, linguistics, new archaeological discoveries, and the continuing evolution of the English language all contribute to the need for producing new translations. But in the case of the Lexham English Bible (LEB), the answer to this question is much simpler; in fact, it is merely twofold.

    First, the LEB achieves an unparalleled level of transparency with the original language text because the LEB had as its starting point the Lexham Hebrew–English Interlinear Bible and the Lexham Greek–English Interlinear New Testament. It was produced with the specific purpose of being used alongside the original language text of the Bible. Existing translations, however excellent they may be in terms of English style and idiom, are frequently so far removed from the original language texts of Scripture that straightforward comparison is difficult for the average user. Of course distance between the original language text and the English translation is not a criticism of any modern English translation. To a large extent this distance is the result of the philosophy of translation chosen for a particular English version, and it is almost always the result of an attempt to convey the meaning of the original in a clearer and more easily understandable way to the contemporary reader. However, there are many readers, particularly those who have studied some biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek, who desire a translation that facilitates straightforward and easy comparisons between the translation and the original language text. The ability to make such comparisons easily in software formats like Logos Bible Software makes the need for an English translation specifically designed for such comparison even more acute.

    Second, the LEB is designed from the beginning to make extensive use of the most up-to-date lexical reference works available. For the Old Testament this is primarily The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT), and for New Testament this is primarily the third edition of Walter Bauer’s A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG). Users can be assured that the LEB as a translation is based on the best scholarly research available. The Hebrew text on which the LEB Old Testament is based is that of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. The Greek text on which the LEB New Testament is based is that of The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition (SBLGNT), a new edition produced by Michael W. Holmes in conjunction with the Society of Biblical Literature and Logos Bible Software. In its evaluation of textual variation, the SBLGNT uses modern text-critical methodology along with guidance from the most recently available articles, monographs, and technical commentaries to establish the text of the Greek New Testament.

    Naturally, when these two factors are taken into consideration, it should not be surprising that the character of the LEB as a translation is fairly literal. This is a necessary by-product of the desire to have the English translation correspond transparently to the original language text. Nevertheless, a serious attempt has been made within these constraints to produce a clear and readable English translation instead of a woodenly literal one.

    There are three areas in particular that need to be addressed to make a translation like the LEB more accessible to readers today, while at the same time maintaining easy comparison with the original language text. First, differences in word order have to be addressed. In this regard, the LEB follows standard English word order, not the word order of biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koiné Greek. Anyone who needs to see the word order of the original languages can readily consult the Lexham Hebrew–English Interlinear Bible or the Lexham Greek–English Interlinear New Testament, which contain a sequence line which gives this information. Second, some expressions in biblical languages are idiomatic, so that a literal translation would be meaningless or would miscommunicate the true meaning. The LEB uses ⌊lower corner⌋ brackets to indicate such expressions, with a literal rendering given in a note. Third, words which have no equivalent in the original language text must sometimes be supplied in the English translation. Because the LEB is designed to be used alongside the original language texts of Scripture, these supplied words are indicated with italics. In some cases the need for such supplied words is obvious, but in other cases where it is less clear a note has been included.

    Finally, the reader should remember that any Bible translation, to be useful to the person using it, must actually be read. We encourage every user of the LEB, whether reading it alongside the original languages text or not, to remember that once we understand the meaning of a biblical text we are responsible to apply it first in our own lives, and then to share it with those around us.

    The Editors

    In Mark 1:34, the LEB never had "to be Christ" (as the two Greek words ' χριστὸν εἶναι ' are NOT in the SBLGNT). Hence removal assertion by @Brother Rando is factually false. The New English Translation (NET) has a textual critical (tc) note about ending of Mark 1:34 =>

    tc The mss vary on what is read at the end of v. 34. Some have “they knew him to be the Christ,” with various Greek constructions (ᾔδεισαν αὐτὸν Χριστὸν εἶναι [ēdeisan auton Christon einai] in B L W Θ f1 28 33vid 565 2427 al; ᾔδεισαν τὸν Χριστὸν αὐτόν εἶναι [ēdeisan ton Christon auton einai] in [א2] C [f13 700] 892 1241 [1424] pc); codex D has “they knew him and he healed many who were sick with various diseases and drove out many demons,” reproducing exactly the first half of the verse. These first two longer readings are predictable expansions to an enticingly brief statement; the fact that there are significant variations on the word order and presence or absence of τόν argues against their authenticity as well. D’s reading is a palpable error of sight. The reading adopted in the translation is supported by א* A 0130 𝔐 lat. This support, though hardly overwhelming in itself, in combination with strong internal evidence, renders the shorter reading fairly certain.

     Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).

    To my reading, ' Χριστον ειναι ' variant is a later scribal addition to Mark 1:34 in some Greek manuscripts.



    @Brother Rando August 29 "God is not the son of man" (Number 23:19)

    The Hebrew definite article ה (the) does NOT occur in Numbers 23:19 in the Masoretic Hebrew text =>

    לא איש אל ויכזב ובן-אדם ויתנחם ההוא אמר ולא יעשה ודבר ולא יקימנה 

    ההוא is an interrogative ה prefixed to a pronoun, personal, 3rd person, masculine, singular (he)

    Balaam's second oracle is in Numbers 23:13-24 LEB =>

    Then Balak said, “Please walk with me to another place where you will see them, but you will only see part of them and will not see all of them; and curse them for me from there.”

    So he took him to the field of Zophim to the top of Pisgah, and he built seven altars, and he offered a bull and a ram on each altar.

    Balaam said to Balak, “Station yourself here at the burnt offering while I myself meet with יהוה Yahweh there.”

    Then יהוה Yahweh met with Balaam, and he put a word in his mouth, and he said, “Return to Balak, and you must speak thus.”

    He came to him, and behold, he was standing at his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him.

    And Balak said to him, “What has יהוה Yahweh spoken?”

    Then he uttered his oracle, and said, 

    “Stand up, Balak, and hear; listen to me, son of Zippor! 

    אל God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of humankind, that he should change his mind. 

    Has he said, and will he not do it? 

    And has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? 

    Behold, I have received a command to bless; when he has blessed, I cannot cause it to return. 

    He has no regard for evil in Jacob, and he does not see trouble in Israel; 

    יהוה Yahweh his אלהים God is with him, and a shout of a king is among them. 

    אל God, who brings them out from Egypt, is like the strength of a wild ox for them. 

    Because there is no sorcery against Jacob, and there is no divination against Israel. 

    Now it will be said to Jacob and Israel, what אל God has done! 

    Look! the people will rise like the lion; he raises himself and will not lie down until he eats the prey and drinks the blood of the slain.” 

    אל are the first two letters of אלהים.


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus For over a decade, my Logos Software Forum avatar title has been "Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)" that is my variation of Philippians 4:4 "Be Ye Rejoicing in the Lord". To me, your false removal assertion about my avatar title reminds me of Exodus 20:16 & Deuteronomy 5:20

    Your removal assertion about Mark 1:34 reminds me of Proverbs 15:31 (as does your@Brother Rando signature having "Bible transliterated into over 120 languages." because transliteration is only useful for those who can read & understand the original Biblical languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek)

    @Brother Rando August 29 Not only do you remove Christ from your avatar title but the Logos software you use only uses the Bibles that removed to be Christ from their scripture.


    • Anti-Christian LEB And he healed many ⌊who were sick⌋ with various diseases and expelled many demons. And he did not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him. (Mark 1:34 LEB) <~~~~~ to be Christ was removed from the antichrist.
    • Christian NWT "So he cured many who were ill with various sicknesses, and he expelled many demons, but he would not let the demons speak, for they knew him to be Christ." (Mark 1:34 New World Translation)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ The Hebrew definite article ה (the) does NOT occur in Numbers 23:19 in the Masoretic Hebrew text =>

    "God is not the son of man" (Number 23:19) “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

    @Brother Rando The Hebrew language doesn't have the letter (a) in it... and now you want to insert the letter (a). You changed the Bible, removed to be Christ from scripture. Because you are in line with the wicked Jewish leader and the demons.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus THE LEB admission is even worse. The Editors In Mark 1:34, the LEB never had "to be Christ" (as the two Greek words ' χριστὸν εἶναι ' are NOT in the SBLGNT).

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 23 Mark 1:34 phrase " καὶ οὐκ ἤφιεν λαλεῖν τὰ δαιμόνια, ὅτι ᾔδεισαν αὐτόν. " has literal translation " and not he was permitting to speak the demons, because they had known him. ", which LEB expressed as " And he did not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him. to be Christ"<~~~~~ Bold added by a true Christian BroRando who smiles for Jesus Christ

    Finally, the reader should remember that any Bible translation, to be useful to the person using it, must actually be read. We encourage every user of the NWT, whether reading it alongside the original languages text or not, to remember that once we understand the meaning of a biblical text we are responsible to apply it first in our own lives, and then to share it with those around us. The you too can learn Jesus was the Christ.

    BroRando was correct as your own confesses. " The New English Translation (NET) has a textual critical (tc) note about ending of Mark 1:34 =>  The mss vary on what is read at the end of v. 34. Some have “they knew him to be the Christ,” with various Greek constructions. However a trinitarian theologists of the Anti-Christian LEB listened to the three demonic voices and REMOVED to be the Christ.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Pages
    Pages Posts: 344

    @Brother Rando

    Anti-Christian LEB And he healed many ⌊who were sick⌋ with various diseases and expelled many demons. And he did not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him. (Mark 1:34 LEB) <~~~~~ to be Christ was removed from the antichrist.

    From the New World Translation Study Notes found on the JW.org website here reads as follows:

    • Mark 1:34
    • they knew him to be Christ: Some Greek manuscripts read “they knew him,” which could be rendered “they knew who he was.” The parallel account at Lu 4:41 reads: “They knew him to be the Christ.”

    Nothing stated in the above study note regarding an alleged conspiracy by trinitarians, or even an anti-christ, having removed text; nor does the WatchTower consider this textual variant at Mk. 1:34 to be of any significance.

    The translators of New World Translation simply followed the text of the Wescott and Hort edition, who in turn had followed the text of Vaticanus.

    And by the way, where on JW.org is their official statement regarding Mk. 1:34 that supports the above claim you so readily proclaim here on this forum?

    <~~~~~ Bold added by a true Christian BroRando who smiles for Jesus Christ

    BroRando was correct as your own confesses.

    Aren't you Bro Rando??? or are you filling in for Bro Rando? 

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Brother Rando August 31 <~~~~~ Bold added by a true Christian BroRando who smiles for Jesus Christ

    @Brother Rando August 31 BroRando was correct as your own confesses.

    Still wondering how many JW's have commented in this forum using pseudonym @Brother Rando ?


    @Brother Rando October 10 Jehovah sent Michael his Chief Messenger whom was existing in God's Form and gave him the Name Jesus Christ.

    Does phrase "<~~~~~ Bold added by a true Christian BroRando who smiles for Jesus Christ" actually express "<~~~~~ Bold added by a true Christian Michael the archangel worshipper BroRando who smiles for Michael the archangel Jesus Christ" ?

    What scripture shows אלהים God (NOT 'sons of אלהים God') describing angel(s) ?

    Searching the Lexham Hebrew Bible for <Lemma = lbs/he/בֵּן:1> BEFORE 1 WORD (<Root = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> OR <Lemma = lbs/he/עֶלְיוֹן> OR <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה>) finds eight verses, with search result highlighting in LEB:

    Genesis 6:2 Then the sons of God saw the daughters of humankind, that they were beautiful. And they took for themselves wives from all that they chose.

    Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were upon the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went into the daughters of humankind, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty warriors that were from ancient times, men of renown.

    Deuteronomy 8:5 And you should know with your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so Yahweh your God is disciplining you.

    Judges 17:2 And he said to his mother, “The eleven hundred pieces of silver that were taken from you, and about which you also pronounced a curse in my hearing, are with me; I took it.” And his mother said, “Blessed be my son by Yahweh.”

    Psalm 82:6 I have said, “You are gods, and sons of the Most High, all of you.

    Job 1:6 And it happened one day that the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst.

    Job 2:1 And then one day the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst to present himself before Yahweh.

    Job 38:7 when the morning stars were singing together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    What scripture shows son - singular being an angel ?


    @Brother Rando October 11 Jehovah transferred the life force of his beloved Son from heaven into the womb of Mary. Nine months later she gave birth to a baby boy, Jesus.

    Which happened first in Psalm 2: laughter OR son ?

    Psalm 2:1-12 LEB =>

    Why are nations in tumult, and countries plotting in vain? 

    The kings of the earth establish themselves, and the rulers conspire together against יהוה Yahweh and his anointed: 

    “Let us tear off their bonds, and cast their cords from us!” 

    He who sits enthroned in the heavens laughs. The Lord derides them. 

    Then he speaks to them in his wrath, and in his fury he terrifies them: 

    “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” 

    I will tell the decree; יהוה Yahweh said to me: 

    “You are my son; today I have begotten you. Ask from me and I will make the nations your heritage, and your possession the ends of the earth. You will break them with an iron rod. Like a potter’s vessel you will shatter them.” 

    So then, O kings, be wise. Be warned, O rulers of the earth. 

    Serve יהוה Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 

    Kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. 

    Blessed are all who take refuge in him. 


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ What scripture shows אלהים God (NOT 'sons of אלהים God') describing angel(s) ?

    I have access to Logos also:

    Elohim אלהים can also be used to refer or allude to angels or other heavenly beings. The Hebrew phrase used in these translations (בְּנֵ֣י אֵלִ֑ים, beney elim, literally “sons of God”), can be translated several ways. In Psalm 29:1, the phrase is translated “heavenly beings” or “sons of the mighty”; likewise, in Job 1:6, this phrase is translated “sons of God” or “angels.”

    Benjamin D. Bratka, “Elohim,” ed. John D. Barry et al., The Lexham Bible Dictionary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016).

    If the sons of God are angels, then the Son of God is an angel... 😀


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ “You are my son; today I have begotten you. Ask from me and I will make the nations your heritage, and your possession the ends of the earth. You will break them with an iron rod. Like a potter’s vessel you will shatter them.” 

    Interesting you make the claim that this person that is 'to be' begotten is God? Isn't God eternal without beginning? Notice these scriptures:

    • "A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was.  So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” (Hebrews 5:4-5)
    • And someone does not take for himself the honor, but is called by God, just as Aaron also was. Thus also Christ did not glorify himself to become high priest, but the one who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you,” (Hebrews 5:4-5)
    • The High Priest is a mediator between God and the Congregation. (1 Timothy 2:5)


    • Kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. 
    • I am sending an Angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared.
    • Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from what he suffered,

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 12 What scripture shows אלהים God (NOT 'sons of אלהים God') describing angel(s) ?

    @Brother Rando October 12 I have access to Logos also:

    @Brother Rando October 12 Elohim אלהים can also be used to refer or allude to angels or other heavenly beings. The Hebrew phrase used in these translations (בְּנֵ֣י אֵלִ֑ים, beney elim, literally “sons of God”), can be translated several ways. In Psalm 29:1, the phrase is translated “heavenly beings” or “sons of the mighty”; likewise, in Job 1:6, this phrase is translated “sons of God” or “angels.”

    @Brother Rando October 12 Benjamin D. Bratka, “Elohim,” ed. John D. Barry et al., The Lexham Bible Dictionary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016).

    The complete Elohim dictionary article is:

    Elohim (אֱלֹהִים, elohim). A masculine plural form of El (אֵל, el). Lexically, this word has several meanings; in Scripture, it typically means “God” or “gods” and also refers to Yahweh (יהוה, yhwh), the God of Israel.

    Overview of Possible Meanings

    “Elohim” often refers to Yahweh in Scripture. For example, Yahweh is the referent in Gen 1:1, where Elohim created the heavens and the earth. Yahweh is also often the referent of Elohim in Pss 42–83, which are known as the Elohistic Psalms.

    Other places in Scripture use elohim to refer to foreign gods. For example, in Exodus, elohim refers to the gods of Egypt at least twice (Exod 12:12; 18:11); another occurrence of the word is Josh 24:20, 23. In both cases, the writer uses elohim in reference to “foreign gods.”

    Elohim can also be used to refer or allude to angels or other heavenly beings. The Hebrew phrase used in these translations (בְּנֵ֣י אֵלִ֑ים, beney elim, literally “sons of God”), can be translated several ways. In Psalm 29:1, the phrase is translated “heavenly beings” or “sons of the mighty”; likewise, in Job 1:6, this phrase is translated “sons of God” or “angels.”

    In rare exceptions, elohim can mean “rulers” or “judges.” In two such cases—Exod 21:6; 22:7–8—/elohim/ refers to court cases. Translations vary: Both the KJV and NIV translate elohim as “judges” while the NASB and ESV translate it as “God.”

    Use of Elohim in the Old Testament

    Elohim is used throughout the Old Testament but is particularly common in the Psalms, where it occurs 404 times, typically referring to the God of Israel. Yahweh, by contrast, occurs 731 times. In books two and three of Psalms—Psalms 42–89—Elohim occurs 301 times and Yahweh 110 times. In many cases, Elohim is used in conjunction with “Yahweh” (Psa 18:28); the two titles are often parallel pairs (Pss 18:6, 21; 24:5; 29:3; 55:16; 69:13; 94:22).

    Elohim also occurs often in the Pentateuch. One curious use is found in Gen 20:13: In this passage, Abraham says that elohim caused him to wander from his father’s house. This usage is odd because the verb is plural (Schmutzer, “Did God Cause,” 151); elohim usually takes singular verbs and adjectives (Chafer, “Biblical Theism,” 400), and verbs are decidedly singular when referring to the God of Israel.

    The Linguistic Roots of Elohim

    “El” (אֵל, el) is a general term for deity that can be traced throughout Semitic languages, mainly Old Akkadian, Amorite, Ugaritic, and Hebrew. It can also be traced through Babylonian, Phoenician, and Aramaic as well. “El” was also the name for the god that was the head of the Canaanite pantheon, a discovery made in Ugaritic texts starting in 1929. This was also the case in Old Akkadian and Amorite texts (Chafer, “Biblical Theism,” 396).

    “El” is seen as father and creator in several ancient texts. In many cases, he is referred to as the “ancient one” or “eternal one” and is often pictured as merciful and benign. These pictures are also common of Yahweh in the biblical text. As such, it is possible that “Yahweh” replaced “El” as a proper name and “Elohim” replaced “El” as the general term for God (see BDB, 43–45).

    Related Articles

    For more information on biblical names for God and the ancient Near Eastern conceptions of deity, see the following articles:

    • Names of God in the Old Testament

    • Names of God in the New Testament

    • Gods

    • YHWH

    • Sons of God

    • Israelite Religion

    Selected Resources for Further Study

    Brown, Francis, S. R. Driver, and Charles A. Briggs. The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 2008.

    Burnett, Joel S. “Forty-Two Songs of Elohim: An Ancient Near Eastern Organizing Principle in the Shaping of the Elohistic Psalter.” Journal for the Study of the Old Testament 31, no. 1 (2006): 81–101.

    Chafer, Lewis Sperry. “Biblical Theism: The Names of Deity.” Bibliotheca Sacra 96, no. 384 (1939): 390–404.

    Gordon, Cyrus H. “םיהלא (myhl') in its Repudiated Meaning of Rulers, Judges.” Journal of Biblical Literature 54, no 3 (1935): 139–44.

    Harris, Murray J. “The translation of Elohim in Psalm 45:7–8.” Tyndale Bulletin 35 (1984): 65–89.

    Manley, G.T. “The God of Abraham.” Tyndale Bulletin 14 (1964): 3–7.

    McKenzie, John L. “The Appellative Use of El and Elohim.” Catholic Biblical Quarterly 10, no. 2 (April 1948): 170–181.

    Schmutzer, Andrew J. “Did God Cause Abraham’s Wandering?” Journal for the Study of the Old Testament 35, no. 2 (2010): 149–66.

    Schulweis, Harold M. “The Unity of Adonai~Elohim.” Reconstructionist 59, no. 1 (Spring 1994): 30–31.

    Speiser, E.A. Genesis. Anchor Yale Bible Commentary 1. New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1964.

    Wenham, Gordon J. Genesis 16–50. Word Biblical Commentary 2. Dallas: Word, 1994.


     Benjamin D. Bratka, “Elohim,” ed. John D. Barry et al., The Lexham Bible Dictionary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016).

    The complete “Elohim,” article does NOT answer: What scripture shows אלהים God (NOT 'sons of אלהים God') describing angel(s) ?

    Searching the Lexham Hebrew Bible (using Logos 10) for lemma.h:=בֵּן.1 BEFORE 1 WORDS (root.h:=אֱלֹהִים OR lemma.h:=עֶלְיוֹן OR lemma.h:=יהוה) finds eight verses, with search result highlighting in LEB:

    Genesis 6:2 Then the sons of God saw the daughters of humankind, that they were beautiful. And they took for themselves wives from all that they chose.

    Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were upon the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went into the daughters of humankind, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty warriors that were from ancient times, men of renown.

    Deuteronomy 8:5 And you should know with your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so Yahweh your God is disciplining you.

    Judges 17:2 And he said to his mother, “The eleven hundred pieces of silver that were taken from you, and about which you also pronounced a curse in my hearing, are with me; I took it.” And his mother said, “Blessed be my son by Yahweh.”

    Psalm 82:6 I have said, “You are gods, and sons of the Most High, all of you.

    Job 1:6 And it happened one day that the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst.

    Job 2:1 And then one day the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst to present himself before Yahweh.

    Job 38:7 when the morning stars were singing together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    What scripture shows son - singular being an angel ?


    @Brother Rando October 12 If the sons of God are angels, then the Son of God is an angel... 😀

    Since אלהים range of meaning includes יהוה Yahweh, foreign gods, angels, rulers, judges, men, then the Son of אלהים God is ?

    Psalm 82 LEB =>

    A psalm of Asaph. 

    אלהים God stands in the divine assembly; he administers judgment in the midst of the אלהים gods. 

    “How long will you judge unjustly and show favoritism to the wicked? Selah 

    Judge on behalf of the helpless and the orphan; provide justice to the afflicted and the poor. 

    Rescue the helpless and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” 

    They do not know or consider. 

    They go about in the darkness, so that all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 

    I have said, “You are אלהים gods, and sons of the Most High, all of you. 

    However, you will die like men, and you will fall like one of the princes.” 

    Rise up, O אלהים God, judge the earth, because you shall inherit all the nations. 

    יהוה Salvation provided truthful explanation about Psalm 82 phrase You are אלהים gods in John 10:22-42 LEB  (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    Then the feast of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the Portico of Solomon. So the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly!”

    Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep! My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” 

    Then the Jews picked up stones again so that they could stone him.

    Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?”

    The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you are a man, make yourself to be אלהים God!”

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are אלהים gods” ’? If he called them ‘אלהים gods’ to whom the word of אלהים God came — and the scripture cannot be broken — do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of אלהים God’? If I do not do the deeds of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

    So they were seeking again to seize him, and he departed out of their hand. 

    And he went away again on the other side of the Jordan, to the place where John was baptizing at an earlier time, and he stayed there. And many came to him and began to say, “John performed no sign, but everything John said about this man was true!” And many believed in him there. 

    Jesus spoke to a human audience about Psalm 82 & human belief choice. A mystery for me is who is in the Psalm 82 divine assembly (while noting angelic beings were NOT mentioned in Psalm 82).


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 12 “You are my son; today I have begotten you. Ask from me and I will make the nations your heritage, and your possession the ends of the earth. You will break them with an iron rod. Like a potter’s vessel you will shatter them.” 

    @Brother Rando October 12 Interesting you make the claim that this person that is 'to be' begotten is God? Isn't God eternal without beginning? 

    Noticed snippet of Psalm 2 scripture (for claim assertion). Yes for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God being eternal without a beginning.

    Could eternal Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God have created the physical realm with plan for a part of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God to be clothed in human flesh (after kings of earth plotted in vain) ?

    Psalm 2:1-12 LEB =>

    Why are nations in tumult, and countries plotting in vain? 

    The kings of the earth establish themselves, and the rulers conspire together against יהוה Yahweh and his anointed: 

    “Let us tear off their bonds, and cast their cords from us!” 

    He who sits enthroned in the heavens laughs. The Lord derides them. 

    Then he speaks to them in his wrath, and in his fury he terrifies them: 

    “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” 

    I will tell the decree; יהוה Yahweh said to me: 

    “You are my son; today I have begotten you. Ask from me and I will make the nations your heritage, and your possession the ends of the earth. You will break them with an iron rod. Like a potter’s vessel you will shatter them.” 

    So then, O kings, be wise. Be warned, O rulers of the earth. 

    Serve יהוה Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 

    Kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. 

    Blessed are all who take refuge in him. 


    To me, the angel sent in Exodus 23 could have been Michael the archangel (or one of the six other archangels). The angel in Exodus 23 has Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's name in the angelic being (NOT forgive sin). In contrast, my forever best friend & redeemer יהוה Salvation = Yeshua = Jesus can forgive sin if a human wants to believe & receive the free ❤️ love gift from Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God. To me, יהוה Yahweh of hosts humbly left Holy Heaven to be clothed in human flesh as The Son of אלהים God & The Son of Man, who is the King Righteous (Melchizedek) and shares " יהוה of Righteousness we " name as it is written in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>

    “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’

    To me, the pronoun 'our' in phrase ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’ expresses Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's point of view as the last two Hebrew words יהוה צדקנו have literal meaning " יהוה of Righteousness we " (consistent with One Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God being uniquely unlike any created human being by having more than one voice, a plural unique God as described in Deuteronomy 6:4).


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420
    edited October 2022

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ “To me, the angel sent in Exodus 23 could have been Michael the archangel (or one of the six other archangels). The angel in Exodus 23 has Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's name in the angelic being (NOT forgive sin).

    Interesting enough, the scripture states this angel could forgive sins. Because Michael the Archangel is God's Chief Messenger as the Word of God and the Son of Man he can forgive sins or destroy those who oppose him because he was given authority and has God's Name in him.

    Michael did not forgive the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    • And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Man and his wife hid themselves from the Presence of Jehovah Elohim, in the midst of the trees of the garden. (Genesis 3:7) The PRESENCE of Jehovah ELOHIM is none other than Michael the Archangel.
    • Therefore Jehovah Elohim sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.  And he drove out Man; and he set the Cherubim, and the flame of the flashing sword, toward the east of the garden of Eden, to guard The Way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:23-24) Michael the Archangel the VOICE of Jehovah Elohim drove the man out set cherubs and his Flaming Sword to guard the Way to Life so they could not continue living forever. The flaming sword symbolizing everlasting destruction.
    • Michael is also pictured in the Book of Revelation as the One of Fire to Judge Mankind.

    "And I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and one sitting on it, called Faithful and True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness.  And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head many diadems, having a name written which no one knows but himself; and he is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen.  And out of his mouth goes a sharp two-edged sword, that with it he might smite the nations; and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod; and he treads the wine-press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty." (Rev 19:11-15)

    You know nothing about the Voice of Jehovah Elohim... who is authorize to forgive sins or destroy.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ I have said, “You are אלהים gods, and sons of the Most High, all of you. 

    However, you will die like men, and you will fall like one of the princes.” 

    Rise up, O אלהים God, judge the earth, because you shall inherit all the nations. 

    יהוה Salvation provided truthful explanation about Psalm 82 phrase You are אלהים gods in John 10:22-42 LEB  (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    What I find interesting is that gods and sons of the Most High are actually angels that you keep rejecting and yet, then you say some mumble jumble that these gods are God. So are you now admitting that Jesus Christ is an angel?

    The Lexham Bible Dictionary allows that a possible interpretation could be that the Angel of Yahweh could be Christ.

    "There are four main interpretations for the identity of the Angel of Yahweh (Mangum, Custis, and Widder, Genesis 12–50, “The Angel of Yahweh”; see also Erickson, Christian Theology, 468):

    1. an appearance of the preincarnate Christ

    2. a hypostasis of Yahweh or a manifestation of a divine attribute

    3. a human or angelic messenger representing Yahweh

    4. a theophany of Yahweh Himself"


    Also on your website, I see this verse: "Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare The Way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts." (Malachi 3:1 Darby)

    The messenger in the context of this scripture is John the Baptizer whom would prepare the The Way for the Messiah. The Jews were in anticipation of the Lord Jesus Christ to suddenly come (at this time not knowing his name because he comes in his Father's Name) the Angel of the Convent who they delight in: behold he comes!

    But how did the wicked Jewish leaders treat this Angel of the Covenant that Inspected his temple?

    jesus whipped.jpg


    Kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly.

    flaming sword (2).jpg


    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 13 “To me, the angel sent in Exodus 23 could have been Michael the archangel (or one of the six other archangels). The angel in Exodus 23 has Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's name in the angelic being (NOT forgive sin).

    @Brother Rando October 13 Interesting enough, the scripture states this angel could forgive sins. Because Michael the Archangel is God's Chief Messenger as the Word of God and the Son of Man he can forgive sins or destroy those who oppose him because he was given authority and has God's Name in him.

    We agree that "the Son of Man he can forgive sins or destroy those who oppose him because he was given authority"

    Who is " יהוה of Righteousness we " ? The last two Hebrew words יהוה צדקנו written in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>

    “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’


    @Brother Rando October 13 Michael did not forgive the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    @Brother Rando October 13 * And they heard the voice of Jehovah Elohim, walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And Man and his wife hid themselves from the Presence of Jehovah Elohim, in the midst of the trees of the garden. (Genesis 3:7) The PRESENCE of Jehovah ELOHIM is none other than Michael the Archangel.

    How many voices does יהוה אלהים have ?


    @Brother Rando October 13 You know nothing about the Voice of Jehovah Elohim... who is authorize to forgive sins or destroy.

    While remembering Matthew 7:1-5, wondering if your words about me really describe you ?


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420
    edited October 2022

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ Who is " יהוה of Righteousness we " ? The last two Hebrew words יהוה צדקנו written in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>

    The scripture identifies the Messiah, but one would need to take the scripture in context of the ones making the claim. "In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.” (Jeremiah 23:6)

    The (Our) is the Nation of Israel by means of the prophet Jeremiah making the claim that Jehovah Is Our Righteousness. However, we both know the Nation of Israel as a whole rejected the Messiah. Therefore they denied the righteous Sprout who was to become Heir!

    • The Jews replied to him, “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself out to be the Son of God!” (John 19:7)

    What did the righteous branch from David's line declare about the Nation Of Israel?

    • “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together The Way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it." (Matthew 23:37)
    •  Look! Your house is abandoned to you. (Matthew 23:38)
    • For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matthew 23:39)
    • Be attentive to him and obey him. Do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your sin. My authority is within him. (Exodus 23:21)
    • Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you from every side. (Luke 19:43)
    • They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected. (Luke 19:44)
    • Whom did they reject? The Angel of the Covenant who Inspected the temple. "and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts." (Malachi 3:1)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ How many voices does יהוה אלהים have ?

    "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 17 Who is " יהוה of Righteousness we " ? The last two Hebrew words יהוה צדקנו written in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>

    @Brother Rando October 17 The scripture identifies the Messiah, but one would need to take the scripture in context of the ones making the claim.

    Who declares " יהוה of Righteousness we " ? in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>

    “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’

    Who knows the time for righteous King fulfillment ?


    @Brother Rando October 17 "In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will reside in security. And this is the name by which he will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.” (Jeremiah 23:6)

    @Brother Rando October 17 The (Our) is the Nation of Israel by means of the prophet Jeremiah making the claim that Jehovah Is Our Righteousness. However, we both know the Nation of Israel as a whole rejected the Messiah. Therefore they denied the righteous Sprout who was to become Heir!

    Who wanted יהוה Salvation to be put to death: the whole Nation of Israel OR some National Religious leaders of Israel ?


    @Brother Rando October 17 What did the righteous branch from David's line declare about the Nation Of Israel?

    Context of Matthew 23:37, Matthew 23:38, and Matthew 23:39 is the 23rd chapter of Matthew. Likewise the context for Luke 19:43 & Luke 19:44 is Luke 19:41-44.

    When were chapter and verse numbers added to Bibles ?

    How is Exodus 23:20-33 about an angel sent by Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God going before Jewish descendants of Israel on their way to the promised land relevant to declaration from the righteous branch from David's line ?

    What is the book of remembrance ? in Malachi 3:1-4:6 LEB =>

    “Look! I am going to send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you are seeking will come suddenly to his temple, and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you are taking pleasure — look! — he is about to come,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts. And who can endure the day of his coming? And who is the one who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire, like launderers’ alkali. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the children of Levi, and he will refine them like gold and like silver, and they will present to Yahweh offerings in righteousness. And the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to Yahweh, like in the days of old and like in former years. 

    “Then I will approach you for judgment, and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers, and against those who swear falsely, and against the oppressors of the hired worker with his wages, the widow and the orphan, and the abusers of the alien, and yet do not fear me,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts. 

    “For I, יהוה Yahweh, have not changed, and you, O children of Jacob, have not perished. From the days of your ancestors you have turned aside from my rules, and have not kept them! Return to me and I will return to you,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts, “but you say, ‘How shall we return?’ 

    Will a human dare to rob אלהים God? Yet you are robbing me! And you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In the tithes and the contributions! You are being cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you! Bring the whole tithe to the storehouse, so that there will be food in my house, and test me please in this,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour forth for you an overflowing blessing. I will rebuke the devourer for you; it will not destroy the fruit of your soil; your vine in the field will not be unfruitful,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts. “And all the nations will call you blessed, because you will be a land in which one takes joy,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts. “Your words have been harsh against me,” says יהוה Yahweh. “But you say, ‘How have we spoken together against you?’ You have said, ‘It is useless to serve God! What is the gain if we keep his requirements, and if we walk as mourners before יהוה Yahweh of hosts? And now we are calling the arrogant blessed! Not only do those who do wickedness prosper; they also test God and they escape!’ ” 

    Then those who revered יהוה Yahweh spoke with one another. And יהוה Yahweh listened attentively and heard, and a scroll of remembrance was written before him of those who revere Yahweh and ponder his name. “They will be mine,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts, “on the day that I am acting, my treasured possession. I will have compassion on them as a man has compassion on his son who serves him. You will return and see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the one who serves אלהים God and the one who does not serve him. 

    “For look! The day is about to come, burning like an oven, and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble. The coming day will consume them,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts. “It will not leave behind for them root or branch. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise, with healing in its wings, and you will go out and leap like fattened calves. You will trample down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am going to act,” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts. 

    “Remember the instruction of my servant Moses, which I commanded him at Horeb to all Israel, the rules and regulations. Look! I am going to send to you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה Yahweh! And he will bring back the hearts of the fathers to the sons, and the hearts of the sons to their fathers, so that I will not come and strike the land with a ban.” 

    How many times did יהוה Yahweh of hosts say in Malachi 3:1-4:6 ?

    How many times did יהוה Yahweh say in Malachi 3:1-4:6 ?

    Isaiah 44:6 LEB =>

    Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: 

    “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god besides me. 

    How many אלהים God(s) is/are יהוה Yahweh of hosts & יהוה Yahweh ?


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 17 How many voices does יהוה אלהים have ?

    @Brother Rando October 17 "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

    Are the 144,000 Jewish people with יהוה name written on their foreheads human OR God ?

    Numbers 2:1-34 describes the arrangement of 13 descendants from the 12 sons of Jewish patriarch Israel (Jacob). Which Jewish tribe was left out of the 144,000 ? per Revelation 7:1-8 LEB  (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, holding the seal of the living אלהים God, and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels who were given permission to damage the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our אלהים God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the ones who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 

    from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand sealed, 

    from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed

    Current world events has me wondering if three seals in Revelation 6:1-8:5 have been opened:

    1) World conquered by COVID (white horse)

    2) World War & rumors of War so slaughter happening (red horse)

    3) Megadroughts, floods, & wars have reduced global food supply along with rampant inflation so many may soon experience a day's wages only buying something to eat (black horse).

    Revelation 6:7-8 LEB =>

    And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard a voice from the fourth living creature saying, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale green horse, and the one seated on it ⌊was named⌋ Death, and Hades followed after him. And authority was granted to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword and by famine and by pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. 

    The fourth seal describes over 25 % of world population being killed (pale green horse).

    Between which seals being opened in Revelation 6:1-8:5 are the foreheads of 144,000 Jewish descendants sealed ?

     

    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ "And the angel of God who was going before the camp of Israel set out and went behind them. And the column of cloud set out ahead of them, and it stood  still  behind them, so that it came between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Israel. And ⌊it was a dark cloud⌋, but it gave light to the night, so that ⌊neither approached the other⌋ all night." (Exodus 14:19)

    This angel of God is also called the Lamb of God who takes the sin of the world away. But the Nation of Israel rejected the Angel of the Covenant so the Covenant was rented into two. The temple would no longer be in Jerusalem since the Nation rejected Jehovah and his anointed one and pursued foreign gods.

    • And look! the curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split.
    • Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.
    Gog and Magog 1.jpg

    The Greek name of the Bible book of Revelation, A·po·kaʹly·psis (apocalypse), means “Uncovering” or “Disclosure.” This name indicates the meaning of Revelation​—it uncovers matters that had been hidden and discloses events that would happen long after it was written. Many of its prophecies are yet to be fulfilled.

    The questions you asked have already been answered in detail... but they remained hidden from you.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Brother Rando October 20  "And the angel of God who was going before the camp of Israel set out and went behind them. And the column of cloud set out ahead of them, and it stood  still  behind them, so that it came between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Israel. And ⌊it was a dark cloud⌋, but it gave light to the night, so that ⌊neither approached the other⌋ all night." (Exodus 14:19)

    @Brother Rando October 20 This angel of God is also called the Lamb of God who takes the sin of the world away.

    Thank you for expressing a faith belief that agrees with Watchtower Society teachings while noticeably lacking scripture support.

    The Jews * say this was Michael, the great prince, who became a wall of fire between Israel and the Egyptians

    * Pirke Eliezer, c. 42.

     John Gill, An Exposition of the Old Testament, vol. 1, The Baptist Commentary Series (London: Mathews and Leigh, 1810), 388.

    An angel of God can move about: e.g. "And the angel of God who was going before the camp of Israel set out and went behind them."

    How many places in earth can יהוה Salvation be at the same time ? according to Matthew 18:18-20 LEB =>

    “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven. Again, truly I say to you that if two of you agree on earth about any matter that they ask, it will be done for them from my Father who is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there in the midst of them.”

    How could a created angelic being (or human being) physically be in more than one place at the same time ?


    @Brother Rando October 20 The Greek name of the Bible book of Revelation, A·po·kaʹly·psis (apocalypse), means “Uncovering” or “Disclosure.” This name indicates the meaning of Revelation​—it uncovers matters that had been hidden and discloses events that would happen long after it was written. Many of its prophecies are yet to be fulfilled.

    We agree many prophecies in ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ (Apocalypse of/from John) are yet to be fulfilled.

    @Brother Rando October 20 The questions you asked have already been answered in detail... but they remained hidden from you.

    To me, your words are your own (eternal truth of Scripture is hidden from you). This thread has your first post in June 2021 (off-topic). Some of my questions have been answered previously: e.g. Chapter & Verse numbers were added to Bibles about 500 years ago. Repeating my new questions about 144,000 from unfilled prophecy in the Bible book of Revelation:

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 17 How many voices does יהוה אלהים have ?

    @Brother Rando October 17 "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

    Are the 144,000 Jewish people with יהוה name written on their foreheads human OR God ?

    Numbers 2:1-34 describes the arrangement of 13 descendants from the 12 sons of Jewish patriarch Israel (Jacob). Which Jewish tribe was left out of the 144,000 ? per Revelation 7:1-8 LEB  (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

    After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, holding the seal of the living אלהים God, and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels who were given permission to damage the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the slaves of our אלהים God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the ones who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 

    from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand sealed, 

    from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, 

    from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed

    Current world events has me wondering if three seals in Revelation 6:1-8:5 have been opened:

    1) World conquered by COVID (white horse)

    2) World War & rumors of War so slaughter happening (red horse)

    3) Megadroughts, floods, & wars have reduced global food supply along with rampant inflation so many may soon experience a day's wages only buying something to eat (black horse).

    Revelation 6:7-8 LEB =>

    And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard a voice from the fourth living creature saying, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale green horse, and the one seated on it ⌊was named⌋ Death, and Hades followed after him. And authority was granted to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword and by famine and by pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. 

    The fourth seal describes over 25 % of world population being killed (pale green horse).

    Between which seals being opened in Revelation 6:1-8:5 are the foreheads of 144,000 Jewish descendants sealed ?


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ The Jews * say this was Michael, the great prince, who became a wall of fire between Israel and the Egyptians

    I have gave you testimony of this many many times. @Brother Rando October 20  "And the angel of God who was going before the camp of Israel set out and went behind them. And the column of cloud set out ahead of them, and it stood  still  behind them, so that it came between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Israel. And ⌊it was a dark cloud⌋, but it gave light to the night, so that ⌊neither approached the other⌋ all night." (Exodus 14:19)

    @Brother Rando October 20 This angel of God is also called the Lamb of God who takes the sin of the world away.

    This same angel is the Son of Man is given authority to forgive sins and destroy those who he does not forgive. "After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory." (Revelation 18:1)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ We agree many prophecies in ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ (Apocalypse of/from John) are yet to be fulfilled.

    Even though many are not fulfilled today, they are undergoing fulfillment as I have explained in the articles I have written previously, even to their timing.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ Numbers 2:1-34 describes the arrangement of 13 descendants from the 12 sons of Jewish patriarch Israel (Jacob). Which Jewish tribe was left out of the 144,000 ?

    The tribe of Dan because they are the earthly survivors that keep on living after the days of distress come to their end.  “During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people (tribe of Dan) will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. (Daniel 12:1)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ Are the 144,000 Jewish people with יהוה name written on their foreheads human OR God ?

    • These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,
    • they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420
    edited October 2022

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ    The Jews * say this was Michael, the great prince, who became a wall of fire between Israel and the Egyptians


    Young's Literal Translation (1 Thess 4:15, 16) for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the Voice of a Chief-Messenger , and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

    • Chief-messenger = Archangel ἀρχάγγελος archángelos, ar-khang'-el-os; from G757 and G32; a chief angel:—archangel.
    • The Chief Angel is the Archangel the Archangel is Michael.
    • The Name God's Son had before being given the Name "Jesus".
    • "You MUST worship God with spirit and TRUTH!" John 4:24


    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Brother Rando October 20 This angel of God is also called the Lamb of God who takes the sin of the world away.

    @Brother Rando October 20 This same angel is the Son of Man is given authority to forgive sins and destroy those who he does not forgive. "After this I saw another angel descending from heaven with great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his glory." (Revelation 18:1)

    Thank you for expressing a faith belief that agrees with Watchtower Society teachings. My reading of scripture simply does not see the Lamb of God & the Son of Man having the life force from a created angelic being inside the Holy human body of יהוה Salvation. Created angelic, demonic, & human beings are physically limited to being in one place at a time.  Matthew 18:18-20 LEB =>

    “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven. Again, truly I say to you that if two of you agree on earth about any matter that they ask, it will be done for them from my Father who is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there in the midst of them.”

    How many places in earth has/can/will be יהוה Salvation at the same time ? Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God exists outside of time/space boundaries.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 20 Numbers 2:1-34 describes the arrangement of 13 descendants from the 12 sons of Jewish patriarch Israel (Jacob). Which Jewish tribe was left out of the 144,000 ?

    @Brother Rando October 20 The tribe of Dan because they are the earthly survivors that keep on living after the days of distress come to their end. “During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people (tribe of Dan) will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. (Daniel 12:1)

    We agree the tribe of Dan is not mentioned in Revelation 7:1-8 LEB for the 144,000. When was the tribe of Dan a nation ? Daniel 12:1-4 LEB (italicized words were added for smooth English) =>

    “Now at that time, Michael, the great prince, will arise, the protector over the sons of your people, and it will be a time of distress that has not been since your people have been a nation until that time. And at that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written in the scroll. And many from those sleeping in the dusty ground will awake, some to everlasting life and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt. But the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse, and the ones providing justice for the many will be like the stars forever and ever. But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and seal the scroll until the time of the end; many will run back and forth and knowledge will increase.” 

    To my reading "(tribe of Dan)" in @Brother Rando quote does fit Daniel 12:1-4 context.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 20 Are the 144,000 Jewish people with יהוה name written on their foreheads human OR God ?

    @Brother Rando@Brother Rando October 20 * These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

    @Brother Rando October 20 * they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

    What did יהוה Yahweh say about the priestly purpose for the nation of Israel (Jewish people) in Exodus 19:1-6 LEB =>

    In the third month after the Israelites went out from the land of Egypt, on this day they came to the Sinai desert. They set out from Rephidim, and they came to the desert of Sinai, and they camped in the desert, and Israel camped there in front of the mountain. 

    And Moses went up to God, and יהוה Yahweh called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you will say to the house of Jacob and you will tell the Israelites, ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and I brought you to me. And now if you will carefully listen to my voice and keep my covenant, you will be a treasured possession for me out of all the peoples, for all the earth is mine, but you, you will belong to me as a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you will speak to the Israelites.” 


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus October 20 had a snippet from John Gill's commentary about the Old Testament:

    The Jews * say this was Michael, the great prince, who became a wall of fire between Israel and the Egyptians

    * Pirke Eliezer, c. 42.

     John Gill, An Exposition of the Old Testament, vol. 1, The Baptist Commentary Series (London: Mathews and Leigh, 1810), 388.

    @Brother Rando October 20 Young's Literal Translation (1 Thess 4:15, 16) for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the Voice of a Chief-Messenger , and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

    @Brother Rando October 20 * Chief-messenger = Archangel ἀρχάγγελος archángelos, ar-khang'-el-os; from G757 and G32; a chief angel:—archangel.

    @Brother Rando October 20 * The Chief Angel is the Archangel the Archangel is Michael.

    The Book of Enoch in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) has the names of seven Archangels.

    @Brother Rando October 20 * The Name God's Son had before being given the Name "Jesus".

    No scripture shows Micheal being a name for Jesus.

    @Brother Rando October 20 * "You MUST worship God with spirit and TRUTH!" John 4:24

    We agree. Our spiritual adversary is the father of lies, who is a master of craftily/deceptively mixing eternal truth with falsehood(s). Eternal truth is always true. יהוה Salvation said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also." John 14:6

    To me, false statements about my friend, savior & Righteous King יהוה Salvation shows one does not really know יהוה Father.

    Which words are more important: Holy eternal ones spoken/inspired by Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God OR lots of human words published by the Watchtower Society (JW.org) ?

    Many failed prophetic predictions prove the Watchtower (JW.org) has NEVER been the correct communication channel for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ @Bill_Coley @C Mc @Pages

    Interesting how the Lord speaks in the Voice of a Chief Messenger and it causes a Resurrection in Young's Literal Translation of (1 Thessalonians 4:16) which states, "because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, 

    • Chief-messenger = Archangel ἀρχάγγελος archángelos, ar-khang'-el-os; from G757 and G32; a chief angel:—archangel.
    • The Chief Angel is the Archangel the Archangel is Michael.
    • The Name God's Son had before being given the Name "Jesus".
    • "You MUST worship God with spirit and TRUTH!" John 4:24


    During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people... And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, (Daniel 12:1-2)

    “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; (John 11:25)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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  • Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
    Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Posts: 1,181

    @Brother Rando October 21 * The Chief Angel is the Archangel the Archangel is Michael.

    @Brother Rando October 21 * The Name God's Son had before being given the Name "Jesus".

    Thank you for expressing a faith belief, which agrees with the Watchtower Society. Please provide scripture support. My scripture searching has not found the name Michael describing the only-begotton (μονογενής mŏnŏgĕnēs) Son of אלהים God.

    Noticed a Strong's Dictionary mentions Michael being the name of an archangel & nine Israelites =>

    4317. מִיכָאֵל Mîykâʾêl, me-kaw-ale´; from 4310 and (the pref. der. from) 3588 and 410; who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Isr.:—Michael.

     James Strong, A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009), 65.

    Searching Strong's Dictionary for archangel found another Hebrew name =>

    1403. גַּבְרִיאֵל Gabrîyʾêl, gab-ree-ale´; from 1397 and 410; man of God; Gabriel, an archangel:—Gabriel.

     James Strong, A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009), 25.

    How many archangel names are in Enoch 20:1-7 LES =>

    These are the angels of powers: Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and the netherworld; Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men; Raguel, one of the holy angels, who avenges the world of luminaries; Michael, one of the holy angels, who was appointed over the good ones of the people and over the chaos; Sariel, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits who sin in the spirit; Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over paradise and the dragons and Cherubim. These are the seven * names of the archangels. 

    * The Greek has “seven” though only six names are listed. The seventh name is Remiel, attested here in some versions (see previous note).

     Rick Brannan et al., eds., The Lexham English Septuagint (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012).

    Was the Greek Septuagint (LXX) considered Scripture in Jewish synagogues when יהוה Salvation walked on earth ~2,000 years ago ?


    What name did יהוה Yahweh declare for אלהים God's righteous son of David in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB ? =>

    “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’

    To me, the pronoun 'our' in phrase ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’ expresses Holy God's point of view as the last two Hebrew words יהוה צדקנו have literal translation " יהוה of Righteousness we " so "of we" is translated as "our" that is consistent with plural אלהים God "of we" in Deuteronomy 6:4

    What is plural in one unique Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ?


    To me, Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God correctly chooses how words become sound: directly from Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God OR indirectly via a created being: human OR angelic (e.g. the Angel of יהוה Yahweh speaking to Moses from the burning bush OR pre-wrath rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). Simple test for any speaker is accuracy. Many failed prophetic predictions prove the Watchtower (JW.org) has NEVER been the correct communication channel for Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.


    Keep Smiling 😊

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  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,420
    edited October 2022

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ What is plural in one unique Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ?

    “I am the One who declared and saved and made known When there was no foreign god among you. So you are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “and I am God." (Isaiah 43:12) You worship foreign gods have reject the God of Israel.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ How many archangel names are in Enoch


    image.png

    I don't read the Catholic Books of the demons who declared the dragons as We or Our. The demons and their WE was hurled out of by the Christ.

    • And she gave birth to a son a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne. (Rev 10:5)
    • And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled
    • So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Christ To my reading "(tribe of Dan)" in @Brother Rando quote does fit Daniel 12:1-4 context.

    • 2000 years ago Salvation began with the Congregation of the way and it will end with the Congregation of the way of Jehovah's Witnesses as the tribe of Dan. The tribe of Dan that you have been fighting against which Michael the Holy One of God is protecting will soon separate you away with fire.
    • “I came to start a fire on the earth, and what more is there for me to wish if it has already been lit? (Luke 12:49)
    • "Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and those who are sexually immoral and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:15)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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