The Deity of Jesus: "The Logos was God"
Comments
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"Can you please post and show that your trinity doctrine claiming Christ died? NOPE, it's an anti-Christian teaching. Billions of trinitarians falsely proclaim God died."
@Pages bait and switch by refusing to post his pagan trinity doctrine. So why the continued efforts of obfuscation?
All the work he goes through in order not to answer by throwing up some screens. Just admit that your trinity that you so admire and worship has NOTHING to do with Jesus Christ. It's as fake as the catholic epistles that don't exist.
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"bait and switch by refusing to post his pagan trinity doctrine. So why the continued efforts of obfuscation?"
Unlike yourself, I have directly answered your question(s) in this thread numerous times.
The claim, "bait and switch", made above is then without merit – there has been no fraudulent or deceptive answers on my part here in my view; so, I very much disagree with your perspective on this.
My answers, generally (when not snarky), do require one to engage on more than a surface level depth for theological discussion as directly witnessed in this case.
And, in my opinion speaking directly to this matter, so far, on your part, there has been no presentation of solid support for the previous assertion regarding your issue of Christ not being in trinity doctrine– just an abundance of your opinionated comments.
Yet, as examples have been posted here multiple times, Christ and Jesus are both found to be within documents stating trinity doctrine; thereby, making it impossible on your part to defend what is shown to be an unfounded claim. So, you then revert to distraction and subterfuge in posts avoiding the acknowledgement of this error.
The trinity doctrine is derived from scripture itself.
"All the work he goes through in order not to answer by throwing up some screens. Just admit that your trinity that you so admire and worship has NOTHING to do with Jesus Christ. It's as fake as the catholic epistles that don't exist."
Quite frankly, I see nothing of substance in this latest post, or any attempt to interact on a productive dialog level – just some self-delusion masquerading as a legitimate and meaningful response. My opinion, of course; and yes, I'm welcome to it.
However, if as you say, the trinity is every bit "as fake as the catholic epistles that don't exist."; then, you have declared the trinity as being existing and true by this argument. For those seven epistles do exist in scripture and are considered to be inspired by God (2Tim. 3:16).
Whether or not, you choose to accept history and this descriptive title, catholic (general), given to these seven books has zero bearing upon their existence within the NT writings, or being real.
Additionally, I see you are still not yet wanting to comment on this intriguing "the Deity of Christ" assertion made in this thread multiple times by yourself.
I'm simply unable to get over the uniqueness of this statement by a Jehovah Witness such as yourself; which, seems to me to contain an inkling of theology that is not to be found on the pages of JW.org or within the halls of the governing body.
I look forward to reading a comment directly relating to the expounding of this "Deity of Christ" position favored by yourself.
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You're the one claiming there is no such thing as "Deity of Christ"
You saw here first folks.... a trinitarian that denies "the deity of Christ"
@Pages However, if as you say, the trinity is every bit "as fake as the catholic epistles that don't exist."; then, you have declared the trinity as being existing and true by this argument. For those seven epistles do exist in scripture and are considered to be inspired by God (2Tim. 3:16).
The trinity nor the catholic epistles are Inspired. It's Catholic Dogma from the Fourth Century.
The catholic epistles (also called the general epistles [1]) are seven epistles of the New Testament. Listed in order of their appearance in the New Testament, the catholic epistles are: Naming The word catholic in the term catholic epistles has been a convention dating from the 4th century.
and
Trinity - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
After its formulation and imperial enforcement towards the end of the fourth century, this sort of Christian theology reigned more or less unchallenged. But before this, and again in post-Reformation modernity, the origin, meaning, and justification of trinitarian doctrine has been repeatedly disputed.
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"You're the one claiming there is no such thing as "Deity of Christ"
Completely false statement. If true as you claim, then you ought to be able to produce a citation where I've specifically stated "there is no such thing as the Deity of Christ".
"the Deity of Christ" has been the position stated throughout your posting; which, as a statement, and on its own, I have no dispute with – being that Jesus is the Christ, who is "fully human, but not merely human – also fully divine" (Morris) which is trinitarian.
Therefore, what I've found intriguing from the start about this assertion of yours is that you are a Jehovah Witness – you're not trinitarian; and yet, grammatically you affirm Deity, capital D, for Christ.
And who is the Christ? Jesus, is the Christ; thereby, grammatically claiming Jesus is Jehovah God. Or, is it to be supposed that there is some other Deity (capital D) also in the WT theological construct regarding Christ?
Seems, to me, completely counter to the WT teaching; and why I ask you about this specific position you maintain in this thread.
I was hoping, and still am, for you to comment in a direct manner on your application of trinitarian thought in these "the Deity of Christ" assertions found in your posts.
"You saw here first folks.... a trinitarian that denies "the deity of Christ"
So, by the above assertion, you logically conclude that Christ ought to be Deity within trinitarian thought and ideology – which, indeed it is.
However, this also logically means your assertion above – that "the Deity of Christ" is denied by a trinitarian, assumes that you do hold to "the Deity of Christ" as your theological position; which it is, that being clear in your posts – making you a trinitarian, of sorts, in this one specific matter of belief.
You have, whether you're aware, or not; stated quite boldly that Christ is Jehovah God throughout this thread, and perhaps others, where "the Deity of Christ" is used – something the governing body of the WT would vehemently deny as being the case.
Interestingly, here in this last response I've quoted above, you've now dropped the capital D from your assertion in this single, and only, time you've written this specific phrase – denoting, perhaps the beginning of realization and a back-pedaling on this position stated so forcefully in this, and other posts.
The remainder of your post is far from relevant to "the Deity of Christ" discussion at hand.
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The deity of Christ is that he is godlike, divine, has the attributes of God. Is declared Judge to do the judging of the angels that sinned and of mankind.
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!
- For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son, (John 5:22)
- Read 1 Cor 10:4 and 1 Cor 10:9
- Peter is not the Rock.... Jesus Christ is!
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"The deity of Christ is that he is godlike, divine, has the attributes of God. Is declared Judge to do the judging of the angels that sinned and of mankind."
Just as I suspected; back-pedaling at top speed. No more capital D used in this phrase and damage control in full swing attempting to align the use of that specific phrase to the theological WT construct of Jn. 1:1.
Fortunately, all the posts where you used "the Deity of Christ" are past the editing stage; and any who wish to view your positive argument for "the Deity of Christ" will be able to do so.
An unfounded, and failed, argument on your part from the beginning of your "the Deity of Christ" campaign.
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Your pride must be damaged. When a trinitarian refuses to post a trinity doctrine they claim to believe in, it's because they have been called out. Loving the darkness more than the light they tend to go back to the hole they were hiding in.
43 “When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it passes through waterless places in search of a resting-place and finds none. 44 Then it says, ‘I will go back to my house from which I moved,’ and on arriving, it finds the house unoccupied but swept clean and adorned. 45 Then it goes and takes along with it seven different spirits more wicked than itself, and after getting inside, they dwell there; and the final circumstances of that man become worse than the first. That is how it will be also with this wicked generation.”
The trinitarian @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christnow claims Jesus is not an angel but God is made up of three angels in Genesis 18.The trinity is nothing but Charlatan Catholic Dogma that claims Mary is the Mother of God from the 4th Century. Your avoidance of posting the trinity that you claim to believe in proves your lack of integrity.
It is used to describe a lack of probity, cheating, [1] lying, or deliberately withholding information, or being deliberately deceptive or a lack in integrity, knavishness, perfidiosity, corruption or treacherousness.
- They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort. 1 John 2:19
- The first thing a trinitarian will say is that God has no name, but he has a Mother? LOL
"Christians are not trinitarians, and trinitarians are not Christians." Brother Rando
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@Brother Rando July 13 Remember, trinitarians claim God has No Name. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christis a trinitarian that claims God is made up of three different voices. He claims there are No Angels nor Prophets.@Brother Rando July 22 Why is the trinitarian @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christclaiming God is made up of three created men? Aren't these angels called elohim (gods). Trinitarians do this ALL THE TIME.@Brother Rando July 24 The trinitarian @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christnow claims Jesus is not an angel but God is made up of three angels in Genesis 18.Thankful for @Brother Rando discussion improvement of
Christhypocrisy warning by @Brother Rando (who is trying to deflect away from hypocrisy in @Brother Rando comments). IfChristreflects my faith NOT believing in Michael the archangel for forgiveness of my sins against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God, thenChrist Michaelwould be truthful as my faith does NOT believe God's Christ was Michael the archangel.Apologies for me really NOT knowing what @Brother Rando is trying to communicate via "the trinitarian" label as @Brother Rando trinitarian dafinitions do NOT describe my faith belief: unique & plural is One Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God simultaneously having three voices in One Spirit.
Remember I identify myself as a follower of "The Way" because יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ...". Holy יהוה with vowels in correct order (YeHoVaH has simple disguise of vowels in reverse order) and accented syllable is intensely Holy, which is useful for me worshipping Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God by saying six Hebrew words in Deuteronomy 6:4
Sad for @Brother Rando free will decision to keep believing & loving untrustworthy human Watchtower Society more than Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God so @Brother Rando does not want to experience true spiritual growth with immensity of Holy Fruit: Love, Joy, Shalom, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christ-Thankful for @Brother Rando discussion improvement ofChristhypocrisy warning by @Brother Rando (who is trying to deflect away from hypocrisy in @Brother Rando comments). IfChristreflects my faith NOT believing in Michael the archangel for forgiveness of my sins against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God, thenChrist Michaelwould be truthful as my faith does NOT believe God's Christ was Michael the archangel.Who is the Arch Enemy of the Anti-Christ?
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!
Sad for @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christwho claims God is made up three angels in Genesis 18 who spews propaganda about false dates about temple.@BroRando False Propaganda
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus United Allied States (UAS) => https://uas.govt.agency First Presidential Election is Thu 30 July 2020, the 9th of Av 5780 whose history includes Holy Temple destruction in Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 3336 (423 BCE) and by the Romans in 3829 (69 CE).
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@Brother Rando July 25 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christ-Thankful for @Brother Rando discussion improvement ofChristhypocrisy warning by @Brother Rando (who is trying to deflect away from hypocrisy in @Brother Rando comments). IfChristreflects my faith NOT believing in Michael the archangel for forgiveness of my sins against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God, thenChrist Michaelwould be truthful as my faith does NOT believe God's Christ was Michael the archangel.@Brother Rando July 25 Who is the Arch Enemy of the Anti-Christ?
One plural unique Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God, who created Angels to be Holy servants. Sadly a number of angels sinned against Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God so they became demons, who always & intensely hate every human. Only thing stronger than their hate is the immense ❤️ of One plural unique Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God,
@Brother Rando July 25 Sad for @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christwho claims God is made up three angels in Genesis 18 who spews propaganda about false dates about temple.Thank you for again trying to describe my faith belief, but sadly your words do NOT describe my faith belief.
Puzzling is Genesis 18 reference in this discussion for followup to my July 23 comment on page 1 of Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #3
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 Logos Bible search for lemma.h:יהוה OR lemma.h:אָדוֹן in LXX Swete has different colors showing Lord translation in Genesis 18:
Screen shot showed Logos Bible Study search results. My apologies for me not knowing if three travelers in Genesis 18 are three angels OR two angels & Holy theopany (who would have walked in the middle with an angel on each side).
June 2021 comment in United Allied States (UAS) First Presidental Election on Thursday 30 July 2020, the 9th of Av 5780 shows @Brother Rando selective copy and paste into this discussion (favorable for @Brother Rando repeated ad hominem assertion that leaves out my apology with lesson learning). Irony is @Brother Rando lack of verifiable fact checking, especially for a quote favorable for @Brother Rando that does NOT exist: e.g. July 9 in this discussion.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christ- Screen shot showed Logos Bible Study search results. My apologies for me not knowing if three travelers in Genesis 18 are three angels OR two angels & Holy theopany (who would have walked in the middle with an angel on each side).Angels are אלהים elohim rendered gods in plural. No, the two angels grabbed the hands of Lot and his family.
But when he lingered, the men seized him by his hand and his wife’s hand, and his two daughters by hand, on account of the mercy of Yahweh upon him. And they brought him out and set him outside of the city. (Genesis 19:16)
AT Genesis 19:1 is states two angels! Angels are called Lord or in this case "MY Lords" just like Jesus Christ.
- And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening. And Lot was sitting in the gateway of Sodom. Then Lot saw them and stood up to meet them. And he bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 And he said, “Behold, my lords, please turn aside into the house of your servant and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you can rise early and go on your way.” And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the square.”
Do you now know why Jesus Christ was showing the examples to his Apostles of the washing of feet?
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In my last post I was negligent in not thanking you for finally addressing the specific issue related to "the Deity of Christ". Thank you for doing so.
A hazard of posting hurriedly is that clarity is often lost and the tone of that post may not accurately reflect the intent of what was to be communicated. In other words, I could have certainly been far more clear and precise in that last post of mine when responding to your "The deity of Christ is that he is godlike, divine, has the attributes of God." statement had I taken more time forming my response.
I had anticipated when first engaging you sometime ago on this "the Deity of Christ" crusade of yours that once the realization of the theological position implied by that assertion was recognized for what it is, that you would then attempt to frame, and align, it with the Jn. 1:1 WT interpretation. (This ought to have been stated in place of the Just as I suspected opening of my last post.)
And that alignment would also require the capital D used in Deity of your statement to then transition into a lowercase d for deity; which it did – and that is damage control in the form of back-peddling; as there has been no admission on your part of having been in error for promoting theological tenets contrary to WT belief and practice. In this case that Christ is Jehovah God.
"Your pride must be damaged."
This seems to come without any logic attached to it. Why, exactly, would you consider that pride is somehow to be involved in our conversation? Much less, that damage occurred. On what basis do you assert the above?
"When a trinitarian refuses to post a trinity doctrine they claim to believe in, it's because they have been called out."
This is simply without any basis of fact; anyone, having knowledgeable familiarity with actual trinitarian doctrine would have recognized what I posted, in that particular thread, as containing, and stating, what is considered trinity doctrine.
That you chose to reject what directly addressed your request in that thread is, of course, entirely up to you; but, it was addressed, and the above view of my supposed refusal is false in every way. In my opinion, you refused to accept and acknowledge that the response given you refuted the position set up by yourself.
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Reading your gibberish is like trying to find the trinity doctrine in the Bible. It's simply not there because the doctrine came from the 'catholic epistles' of the 4th century and are demonic ramblings.
Take the OP's opening statement. Leaving Christ out of his made up doctrine..
"Jesus is God." It's in plain sight from Genesis to Revelation. Jesus is Co-equal, Co-creator, and Co-eternal with the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
The phrase "Jesus is God." is unscriptural and not found ANYWHERE from Genesis to Revelation. Second, if "Jesus is God." Then how is that God is Co-equal, Co-creator, and Co-eternal with the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit?
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"The phrase "Jesus is God." is unscriptural and not found ANYWHERE from Genesis to Revelation."
And this is from the person who vehemently asserted for a lengthy time in their posts, "the Deity of Christ"; in other words, Christ is Jehovah God.
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@Pages And this is from the person who vehemently asserted for a lengthy time in their posts, "the Deity of Christ"; in other words, Christ is Jehovah God.
"the Deity of Christ" has nothing to do what you claim. It refers to his Qualitative Sense in being in the same essence of God. This spirit creature being made in the image of God. The only begotten Son is unique because he is ahead pf the rest being pre-eminent. The Beginning of Creation of God.
- The Firstborn of All Creation
- Jehovah created me as the First of his ways
- Being in the form of God (Spirit), became a man and given the Name..
- The Beginning of Creation by God.
- In the Beginning was the Word.
- Became better than the angels because of the Name he inherited.
