Is Jesus God?

Correct ... there is NO scripture which teaches that the Word of God is a real person who lived at the beginning of creation! All such ideas of word of God as a living person emanate from "trinity" dogma thinking ("real pre-existence of Jesus" because without such there could be no "God the Son" doctrine). Unfortunately, some have recognized trinity error, but for whatever reason maintain the pillar of trinity doctrine as one of their dogma's pillars ...

Your recent posts in this thread come across to me as more menagerie than meaningful, but among your more understated declarations in them is this one, in which you acknowledge some of the content of a note about the Greek word "la·treuʹo" in the JW online study Bible. Thanks for the acknowledgement, but in my view, you didn't quote enough of the note. The full note reads this way (emphasis added):

In an earlier response to me in this thread, you accused me of quoting from a "Corrupt and Misleading" Scripture. You claimed "[t]he Greek doesn't not have the word WORSHIP," and then "challenge[d]" me to "correct and admit" that I had "purposely used a falsified scripture." You concluded your post with the odd directive, "Now prove your Deception or I will with future postings."

The JW study Bible's note on the Greek word in question, discovered and referenced by @C Mc, raises serious doubts about the accuracy of your accusations. According to YOUR church's reference work...

• The Greek word "usually refers" to service to God OR the worship of God, including cultic rituals as I described in my previous post (e.g. service at a temple or sanctuary).
• In some contexts, the Greek word CAN BE rendered "to worship," as the ESV translated it. Yet you called that translation "Corrupt and Misleading."
• The ESV's rendering of the verse is NOT "falsified" as you claimed, but in fact can be, and in some translations IS, deemed justified given the Greek word used.

In short, @BroRando, your accusations about my previous post were false. I didn't use a "corrupt," "misleading," or "falsified" Scripture. I engaged in no "deception." You accused me of doing so! But you were wrong, in every case wrong.

Among the many reasons CD expectations ask us to "criticize ideas, not people" is the risk of an outcome such as the one you have created for yourself. You made false accusations, not just about another poster's ideas, but about another poster, personally. To accuse an idea falsely is usually not much more than a mistake. To accuse another poster falsely is just plain wrong... and totally avoidable.

I actually said quite a bit in my previous post, with little or no "gibberish"... unless, of course, you consider the JW Study Bible, from which I quoted, to be "gibberish."

What did I claim about the word "worship" in Acts 27.23? Only that according to the JW Study Bible:

• The Greek word "la·treuʹo," which IS found in Acts 27.23, "usually refers" to service to God OR the worship of God, including cultic rituals as I described in my previous post (e.g. service at a temple or sanctuary)
• In some contexts, that Greek word CAN BE rendered "to worship," as the ESV translated it.
• The ESV's rendering of the verse is NOT "falsified" as you claimed, but in fact can be, and in some translations IS, deemed justified given the Greek word used.

In case you didn't see the quotation from the JW Study Bible in my previous post, here it is again (emphasis added):

And in case you didn't see the numerous relevant assertions in that quotation, here's one prominent one again: "Thus, in some contexts the expression [FROM THE SAME GREEK WORD AS IS IN ACTS 27.23!] can also be rendered 'to worship.'"

Does the Greek word "la·treuʹo" also have false worship connotations? It can, "in a few cases" reports the JW Study Bible. Is Acts 26.7 one of those "few cases"? No. Here's Acts 26.6-7 (LEB):

6 And now I stand here on trial on the basis of hope in the promise made by God to our fathers, 7 to which our twelve tribes hope to attain as they earnestly serve him night and day. Concerning this hope I am being accused by the Jews, O king! 

There's no "false worship" indicated in Paul's use of the word "la·treuʹo," translated "serve," in that verse.

So I used the JW Study Bible (and BDAG) to claim that the Greek word "la·treuʹo" found in Acts 27.23 CAN BE translated "worship," which means, according to the JW Study Bible (and basically all other sources), the word "worship" or a word that means something very close to it IS in Acts 27.23, in the form of the Greek word "la·treuʹo."

You should direct your false accusations of corrupted, "falsified," and "misleading" Scriptures to the JW Study Bible people.

Translation is the intersection of original language word meaning range & target language word meaning range within the bounds of translator's faith belief ideas, which can be what does original language word mean to the translator(s) in that context.

Suggest researching Strong's Greek #3000 meaning range: (English translation choice in Acts 27:23 is serve OR worship)

We agree the word trinity (OR tri-unity) does not appear in original language words of the Bible. Logos Bible Search for trinity OR tri-unity in all Bibles in my library found one translator, Kenneth S Wuest, added "[in the council help by the Trinity]" explanatory note in Acts 2:22-24

Likewise do not know how my faith belief ideas (mis)align with various human written theological degrees/dogmas (across a variety of denominations & religious groupings). If you ask for hands to be raised by those who identify as a trinnie OR trinitarion, my hands would stay down by my side (have doubts about those words describing me along with not knowing what definition is intended for non-biblical wording).

Personally describe myself as a follower of The Way because Jesus said: "I AM The Way, and The Truth, and The Life. No one comes to The Father except through me." in John 14:6

Are the words of Jesus truthful OR was the specially sent man Jesus deluded about spiritually knowing & experiencing plural el-o-HEEM אֱלֹהִים God's Glory & Love before the world existed ?

And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

“Father, those whom you have given to me — I want that those also may be with me where I am, in order that they may see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24 LEB)

FWIW: personally have not studied "trinity" doctrine/dogma human writings by various denominations & religious groups so a bit curious about source(s) for trinity idea assertions (not well known to me).

Keep Smiling 😊

Jesus was not deluded, he just did not even say or declare what YOU make of his words ...there is NOTHING about Jesus already knowing or experiencing something before the world existed. Jesus knew when he was speaking that God's plan for the Messiah from before the world included not only suffering but afterwards glorification. Same applies to what is mentioned about God loving Jesus before the world was. Cp. 1Pe 1:20 - before the world was, Jesus was FOREKNOWN, but not Jesus already lived, knew and experienced.

Unfortunately, a very misleading and trinitarian biased translation "I had at your side" ....

1Pe 1:20 states clearly that Jesus existed in form of thought, word, idea in God's foreknowledge (in God's mind) ... the verse does thus indicate as clearly that Jesus was NOT living at God's side before the world was. (Jesus is now living at God's side after being received up (ascension) into God's presence).

As I have noted previously, the Greek word "la·treuʹo" is indeed translated "serve" by many English language Bibles, and from everything I've seen, such is an accurate translation. No deception. No misleading.

But as I have ALSO noted previously, the Greek word "la·treuʹo" usually refers to service in a cultic, temple, or worship setting, and hence, as pointed out by the following note in the JW Study Bible (emphasis added), CAN LEGITIMATELY BE TRANSLATED "worship":

Are you then saying that the JW Study Bible is also "untruthful and deceitful" and misleading with the intention to mislead when it reports that the Greek word "la·treuʹo" usually refers to "service to God or in connection with the worship of him," and therefore, "in some contexts the expression can also be rendered 'to worship'"? [PLEASE ANSWER DIRECTLY]

When in its side note on Acts 27.23 the JW Study Bible includes "worship" as a parenthetical option to its chosen translation of the Greek word "la·treuʹo"...

... do you believe the JW Study Bible is AGAIN "untruthful and deceitful" and misleading with the intention to mislead? [PLEASE ANSWER DIRECTLY]

You linked to and apparently base your accusations of deceit against me on an interlinear translation of Acts 27.23. According to what I would call a concordance page on the word the Greek word "la·treuʹo" that is accessible by a link found just above the Greek word on the page to which you linked, "to worship" is offered as a possible translation in Acts 27.23 by Thayer's Greek Lexicon. Are you saying that the publisher of the interlinear to which you linked is "untruthful and deceitful" and misleading with the intention to mislead when it publishes Thayer's optional translation? [PLEASE ANSWER DIRECTLY]

BOTTOM LINE: You linked to an interlinear's translation of Acts 27.23, and accept as correct its word choice for the Greek word "la·treuʹo." That's well and good. But you link to ONLY ONE translation and appear to accept ONLY its word choice as correct; that's not well and good. There are other resources - other legitimate, credible, and authoritative resources - that provide translation guidance about Acts 27.23, many of which - including the JW Study Bible - report that the Greek word "la·treuʹo" refers to service in a cultic, temple, and worship setting, which means the word CAN CORRECTLY be translated as "worship."

I welcome you to the translation choices you make. I make mine only on the basis of the resources I access, resources such as the JW Study Bible, BDAG, and the concordance page to which your interlinear provides a link. If you simply must accuse somebody or something of intentional deceit and dishonesty because they disagree with your chosen translation of the Greek word "la·treuʹo," in my view you should include among the targets of your accusations the resources upon which they rely. In my case, that includes the JW Study Bible.

I've never claimed that θεοῦ (theou) should be translated "the God." If you simply must accuse me of deceit, please do so on something that resembles an accurate basis.

I've claimed that in Acts 27.23 Paul does NOT say he belongs to the "angel of God;" he says he belongs to God, one of whose angels came to him. According to the interlinear to which YOU linked, the Greek words of the clause at issue in Acts 27.23 are translated...

stood by / for / me / this / / night / / of God / whose / am / I / whom / and / I serve / an angel

According to the JW Study Bible, those component words are best translated (emphasis added), "This night an angel of the God to whom I belong and to whom I render sacred service stood by me."

The JWSB and several other translations render the verse to include the phrase "the God," so if you simply must accuse me of deceit for the way I report the content of Acts 27.23, please include the JWSB and those other translations among the targets of your accusations, for those resources, not my personal knowledge of Biblical Greek (of which I have basically none), are the basis for my report.

WHAT YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADDRESSED:

• Do you dispute the JW Study Bible's (and most other authorities') claim that the Greek word la·treuʹo is about service specifically in a temple/cultic/worship setting? If so, on what basis?
• The questions I re-asked you in THIS POST, questions that date back to October 12.

@Bill_Coley said:

Bill,

You will not get a straight answer. At best, you will get a devatation or accused of something else. This is basic training for many of them. The tactic is standard and to be expected. This is based on my experiences with JWs at my door. I am sure you know this. CM

Again with the accusations.

Did you read the study note on Acts 27.23? It reads (emphasis is in the original),

The study note for Acts 27.23 directs readers to the study note for Acts 26.7. How then was it deceitful - a "lie" - for me to claim that the study note for Acts 26.7 applies to Acts 27.23?

I noted this piece of the study note previously.

1. The study note says such a meaning is found "in a few cases," but clearly Acts 27.23 is NOT one of them, since in the verse, Paul refers to his service/worship of God, not some "created" thing.
2. The study note ALSO says, "Thus in some contexts the expression can also be rendered 'to worship.'" Despite the fact that I have quoted that piece to you AT LEAST three times during our exchange, you have yet to engage it - yet even to mention it. Similarly, you have yet to engage or even mention basically any substantive piece of my posts in our exchange, including nearly the whole of my previous post in which I asked for your direct response to three questions - which you chose not even to mention - and provided a link to questions in another thread that I asked but you chose not even to mention.

I've had enough interactions with you since your arrival in these forums to conclude with confidence that except in VERY rare circumstances, you don't answer questions put to you; in fact, you don't even mention or acknowledge questions put to you. You're willing to accuse - falsely - others of deceit and bad intentions, but you're not willing to address or even mention the questions others pose to you. That's not an acceptable form of "Christian discourse" for me, so I am withdrawing from our exchanges. You may continue to post - to accuse, to allege, and to personalize your targets - but I will no longer reply... UNTIL you post direct responses to the questions I posed in BOTH THIS POST AND THIS POST. I don't expect you to address any of those questions - and if you don't, so be it - but until you address them - ALL of them - I will no longer engage you in these forums.

@Bill_Coley,

The content of your post is noted. We all have different approaches in addressing matters. Be blessed. CM

What is your translation ? (literally not seeing Koine Greek language basis for "very misleading ... translation" idea assertion along with not knowing what you mean by trinitarian - since "three voices [plural] in One unique God" idea is something your faith currently believes cannot be)

καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί. (John 17:5 SBLGNT)

καὶ - and: conjunction, logical connective

νῦν - now: adverb

δόξασόν - to glorify: verb, aorist, active, imperative, 2nd person, singular (imperative is commanding action)

με - me: pronoun, personal, 1st person, accusative, singular

σύ - you: pronoun, personal, 2nd person, nominative, singular

πάτερ - father: noun, vocative, singular, masculine

παρὰ - from beside, by the side of, by, beside: preposition (physical beside/side/by aspects are challenging to describe in a spiritual only realm)

σεαυτῷ - yourself: pronoun, reflexive, 2nd person, dative, singular, masculine

τῇ - the: article, dative, singular, feminine

δόξῃ - glory: noun, dative, singular, feminine (article agrees with noun for case, number, & gender)

ᾗ - that: pronoun, relative, dative, singular, feminine (pronoun for δόξῃ agrees in case, number, & gender)

εἶχον - to have: verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 1st person, singular ("the glory that was having" expresses continuous action in past time)

πρὸ - before: preposition

τοῦ - the: article, genitive, singular, masculine OR neuter

τὸν - the: article, accusative, singular, masculine

κόσμον - world: noun, accusative, singular, masculine

εἶναι - to be, to exist: verb, present, active, infinitive

παρὰ - from beside, by the side of, by, beside: preposition (physical beside/side/by aspects are challenging to describe in a spiritual only realm)

σοί - you: pronoun

Letters of Peter were written about unique plural God that includes Lord Jesus while John 17 priestly prayer is words spoken & earnestly prayed by the man Jesus, who experienced God's Glory and Love BEFORE plural God created physical realm.

Keep Smiling 😊