Is Jesus God?
Comments
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@BroRando November 4 I and the Father are one... BroRando. With your reasoning... are you now going to claim that BroRando is God?
Your claim lacks factual credibility (like many others). Historical fact is Jesus lived, died, & rose from the dead => truthful credibility.
John 10:22-39 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of אלהים as God in LXX) => Then the feast of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the Portico of Solomon. So the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly!” Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep! My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” Then the Jews picked up stones again so that they could stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you are a man, make yourself to be אלהים God!” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are אלהים gods” ’? If he called them ‘אלהים gods’ to whom the word of אלהים God came — and the scripture cannot be broken — do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of אלהים God’? If I do not do the deeds of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” So they were seeking again to seize him, and he departed out of their hand.
@BroRando November 4 Do you not know that Hebrew Scriptures were also written in Greek?
Years ago learned Jewish scholars translated Hebrew & Aramaic into Greek Septuagint a couple centuries before Jesus was born on earth. The abbreviation for Greek Septuagint is LXX => number 70 in Roman numerals for the number of Jewish translators.
Your assertion of Greek lemma κτίσις (ktisis) is simply NOT in the LXX book of Proverbs.
Proverbs 8:22 in LXX has an inflected form of the verb "to create, to make, to fabricate" κτίζω (ktizō), but not the noun κτίσις (ktisis). Verb κτίζω lemma was assigned Greek Strong #2936 while noun κτίσις lemma was assigned Greek Strong #2937. Augustus Strong, et al, assigned numbers to original language words appearing in Scripture text. LXX and early church fathers writing in Greek include words not used in the New Testament so those words do not have Strong's numbering. Lemma is the lexicon (dictionary) form of original language words.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Excatly. That was my point.
Your assertion of Greek lemma κτίσις (ktisis) is simply NOT in the LXX book of Proverbs.
Proverbs 8:22 in LXX has an inflected form of the verb "to create, to make, to fabricate" κτίζω (ktizō), but not the noun κτίσις (ktisis). Verb κτίζω lemma was assigned Greek Strong #2936 while noun κτίσις lemma was assigned Greek Strong #2937. Augustus Strong, et al, assigned numbers to original language words appearing in Scripture text. LXX and early church fathers writing in Greek include words not used in the New Testament so those words do not have Strong's numbering. Lemma is the lexicon (dictionary) form of original language words.
@BroRando Now REAd Proverbs 8:22 again. “Yahweh created me, the First of his Ways, Before his acts ⌊of old⌋.
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Translation of "created" in Proverbs 8:22 poses a perplexing dilemma: Without wisdom, how could יהוה create wisdom ?
‘The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (Proverbs 8:22 New Cambridge Paragraph Bible)
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. (Proverbs 8:22 KJV)
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. (Proverbs 8:22 ASV 1901)
“I, wisdom, was with the Lord when he began his work, long before he made anything else. (Proverbs 8:22 New Century Version)
The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways for his works; (Proverbs 8:22 Lexham English Septuagint)
Κύριος ἔκτισέν με ἀρχὴν ὁδῶν αὐτοῦ εἰς ἔργα αὐτοῦ, (Proverbs 8:22 LXX)
Κύριος - Lord - noun, nominative, singular, masculine - translated יהוה
ἔκτισέν - create, found - verb, aorist, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular - translated קָ֭נָנִי buy, acquire, create - verb, Qal, perfect, 3rd person, masculine, singular with pronoun suffixed, 1st person, singular
με - me - pronoun, personal, 1st person, accusative, singular - translated pronoun suffix, 1st person, singular of קָ֭נָנִי
ἀρχὴν - beginning - noun, accusative, singular, feminine - translated רֵאשִׁ֣ית beginning - noun, common, feminine, construct
ὁδῶν - way, road - noun, genitive, plural, feminine - translated דַּרְכּ֑וֹ way - noun, common, singular, construct with pronoun suffixed, 3rd person, masculine, singular
αὐτοῦ - he - pronoun, personal, 3rd person, genitive, singular, masculine - translated pronoun suffixed, 3rd person, masculine, singular
εἰς - into, to - preposition - translated קֶ֖דֶם before - noun, common, singular, construct
ἔργα - work - noun, accusative, plural, neuter - translated מִפְעָלָ֣יו act - noun, common, masculine, plural, construct with pronoun suffixed, 3rd person, masculine, singular
αὐτοῦ - he - pronoun, personal, 3rd person, genitive, singular, masculine - translated pronoun suffixed, 3rd person, masculine, singular
יהוה acquired me (the) beginning his way before (into) his work (Proverbs 8:22 my stilted literal translation from Hebrew & Greek)
Noted Hebrew Qal perfect verbs (complete action) were translated into Greek aorist tense (appears Qal perfect lacks the perfect tense aspect of Greek: completed action with ongoing results). Researching range of meaning for Hebrew verb found:
קָנָה (qānâ). vb. to acquire, create. Refers typically to acquiring something through purchase or labor. May refer to creating, not just acquiring, in certain contexts.
This verb is most often used for acquiring property, goods, qualities, or other abstract concepts (e.g., wisdom and knowledge or understanding; Prov 4:5). However, in a few instances it means “to create.” Genesis refers twice to God as the creator (qānâ) of the heavens and the earth (Gen 14:19, 22). In Deuteronomy 32:6 Moses says that Yahweh, Israel’s Father, created (qānâ) them. David says that Yahweh created (qānâ) his “inward parts” (Psa 139:13). Proverbs says that Yahweh created (qānâ) Wisdom (Prov 8:22). It is not always clear which sense of the verb is intended, and in some of these passages it may mean “acquire” rather than “create.”
Michael E. Peach, “Creation,” ed. Douglas Mangum et al., Lexham Theological Wordbook, Lexham Bible Reference Series (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2014).
Proverbs 8:22 commentary by John Gill was published in 1766:
Ver. 22. The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, &c.] Not created me, as the Targum and the Septuagint version; which version Arius following gave birth to his pernicious doctrine; who from hence concluded Christ is a creature, and was the first creature that God made, not of the same but of a like nature with himself, in some moment or period of eternity; and by whom he made all others: the Word, or Wisdom of God is never said to be created; and if as such he was created, God must have been without his Wisdom before he was created; besides, Christ, as the Word and Wisdom of God, is the Creator of all things, and not created, John 1:1–3 but this possession is not in right of creation, as the word is sometimes used, Gen. 14:19, 22 but in right of paternity; see Gen. 4:1; Deut. 32:6 it might be more truly rendered, the Lord begat me, as the word is translated by the Septuagint in Zech. 13:5 it denotes the Lord’s having, possessing, and enjoying his word and wisdom as his own proper son; which possession of him is expressed by his being with him and in him, and in his bosom, and as one brought forth and brought up by him; as he was in the beginning of his way of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things; then he did possess his son, and made use of him, for by him he made the worlds: and in the beginning of his way of grace, which was before his way of creation; he began with him when he first went out in acts of grace towards his people; his first thoughts, purposes, and decrees concerning their happiness, were in him; the choice of their persons was made in him; God was in him contriving the scheme of their peace, reconciliation, and salvation; the covenant of grace was made with him, and all fulness of grace was treasured up in him: the words may be rendered, the Lord possessed me, the beginning of his way; that is, who am the beginning, as he is; the beginning of the creation of God, the first cause, the efficient of it, both old and new; see Col. 1:18; Rev. 3:14. So Aben Ezra, who compares with this Job 40:19. This shews the real and actual existence of Christ from eternity, his relation to Jehovah his Father, his nearness to him, equality with him, and distinction from him: it is added, for further illustration and confirmation-sake, before his works of old; the creation of the heavens and the earth; a detail of which there is in the following verses
John Gill, An Exposition of the Old Testament, vol. 4, The Baptist Commentary Series (London: Mathews and Leigh, 1810), 382–383.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Proverbs 8:22 again. “Yahweh created me, the First of his Ways, Before his acts ⌊of old⌋.
Who existed before the world was?
Wisdom at Creation
22 “Yahweh createdh me, the first of his ways,
before his acts ⌊of old⌋.i
23 From eternity, I was set up from the first,
from the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth,
when there were no springs of ⌊abounding⌋ water.
25 Before mountains had been shaped,
before hills, I was brought forth.
26 When he had not yet made earth and fields,
or the first dust of the world,
27 ⌊when he established⌋l the heavens, there I was,
⌊when he drew⌋m a circle upon the face of the deep,
28 ⌊when he made⌋n skies from above,
when he founded fountains of the deep,
29 ⌊when he assigned⌋o his limits to the sea,
that waters shall not transgress his ⌊command⌋,p
⌊when he marked⌋q the foundations of the earth,
30 I was ⌊beside⌋r him, a master workman,
and I was delighting day by day,
rejoicing before him ⌊always⌋,
In the Begining was the Word John 1:1
Firstborn of All Creatures/Firstborn of All Creation Colossians 1:15
The Begining of Creation Revelation 3:14
I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the WAY and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions because My Name is in Him. (Exodus 23:20-21)
Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to hert—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it.u 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.v 39 For I say to you, you will by no means SEE me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”
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Those to whom the arm of the Lord has not been revealed, will never understand its message.
You miss Who Jesus is and you have no chance of understanding the message of Jehovah.
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You miss Who Jesus is and you have no chance of understanding the message of Jehovah.
Do you realize that it could be YOU who misses the Biblical truth of who Jesus is ?? Would that mean that you have no chance of understandin YHWH's message??
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Jesus Christ is the arm of Jehovah.
3 The question of putting faith in this surprising report was raised even in the eighth century B.C.E., when Jehovah inspired Isaiah to foretell the marvelous change in the condition of the “Servant.” That is why, right after telling about the miraculous transformation in the status of the “Servant,” the prophet Isaiah goes on to raise the question: “Who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?”—Isaiah 53:1.
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If God did not have wisdom, how could God create wisdom ? (logically seems impossible to create wisdom without already having wisdom)
Who is "The First and The Last" ?
Two subjects are in Isaiah 44:6-7 LEB => Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god besides me. And who is like me? Let him proclaim it! And let him declare it and set it in order for me since I established an eternal people and things that are to come, and let them tell them the things that are coming.
Revelation 22:12-16 LEB => “Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with me, to repay each one according to what his deeds are! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Blessed are the ones who wash their robes, so that their authority will be over the tree of life and they may enter into the city through the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral people and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and who practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
How truthful are the words Jesus spoke in Revelation 22:12-16 LEB ?
If Jesus had a beginning, how can "I am the Alpha ..., the first ..., the beginning ..." be factually correct ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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How truthful are the words Jesus spoke in Revelation 22:12-16 LEB ?
They are true ...
If Jesus had a beginning, how can "I am the Alpha ..., the first ..., the beginning ..." be factually correct ?
Jesus explains it ... Mt 1:1 explains it -- "This is the book of the generation [γένεσις (genesis)] of Jesus ..."
Little hint => "first and last" is a Hebrew idiom which emphasizes the meaning "only one". The context will provide the detail in which respect the person spoken of is the only one. Scripture has several persons who are "first and last"
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If God did not have wisdom, how could God create wisdom ? (logically seems impossible to create wisdom without already having wisdom)
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah. Isaiah 55:8
Jehovah God is without Beginning or End. "O Jehovah, you have been our dwelling place throughout all generations. Before the mountains were born Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, From everlasting to everlasting, you are God." (Pslam 90:1-2) That means Jehovah is Eternal... other translations of Pslam 90:2
Now.. look at the scripture again... notice the mountains were born and the earth was 'brought forth'? Yes.. Creation was Begotten, brought forth, born, a few translations use the word 'birth'. All these things were CREATED were they not? Weren't you the one claiming the earth was Created and not brought for or begotten?? Now you know CREATION was brought forth and begotten.
Who is "The First and The Last" ?
The title can be applied to both Jehovah and Jesus.
If Jesus had a beginning, how can "I am the Alpha ..., the first ..., the beginning ..." be factually correct ?
Whose name did Jesus come in? Jesus is God's Servant, the Chosen One, Messiah, Christ.
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One niche that JayDubs have is producing some interesting graphics, Though I find some of them inexplicably disturbing. Seventh Day Adventists produce similar graphics but are somewhat less disturbing.
Aside from that, the resurrection proves Jesu was God.
Post edited by Truth on -
@Truth stated
Aside from that, the resurrection proves Jesu was God.
Well, let's see what Scripture has on this matter:
Rom 1:4 - "who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, ..."
Someone is wrong or perhaps even a straight forward liar .... who - @Truth or Paul?
Rom 10:9 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Oh oh ... is someone not saved because of a false belief?? Paul states that the man Jesus was raised by God ... NOT that God had died and raised Himself from the dead, nor that the man Jesus raised himself from the dead.
Is it time, @Truth, to take a check up and correct the unbiblical and false beliefs which you been led to hold?
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Maybe you should start reading the Bible instead of listening to trinity dogma that denies Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16)
Romans 10:9
For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.
Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead,
Acts 4:10
let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·reneʹ, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you.
Acts 13:30
But God raised him up from the dead,
Hebrews 11:19
But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way.
Colossians 2:12
For you were buried with him in his baptism, and by your relationship with him you were also raised up together through your faith in the powerful work of God, who raised him up from the dead.
1 Peter 1:21
Through him you are believers in God, the one who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope might be in God.
Acts 3:15
whereas you killed the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses.
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A few years ago, a friend was very serious about her walk with God. JW's came to her door and gave her books and literature which she devoured. She began to see a distorted Bible. Her friends encouraged her to put down the JW propaganda for 6 months and read only the Bible. She did so. With days her vision began to clear. Within weeks she could not imagine how she had been misled by twistings and turnings of JW writers. Today, she is much stronger and wiser for her journey through doubt.
I have sympathy for her near misleading by a confused cult.
I have another friend, a former coworker who loves God sincerely, but have been deceived by JW falsehood. Our friendship is deep and I think her walk with God authentic. Her confusion about Christ--God must judge. Rondo--maybe is a similar place. I don't know. He offers nothing original, He merely spouts standard JW party line gobbledygook. Others here, what will your excuse be when you face God?
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Rondo--maybe is a similar place. I don't know. He offers nothing original,
He offers scripture references (which anyone can check with their preferred Bible version ... YOU provide NOTHING from Scripture, why??
He merely spouts standard JW party line gobbledygook.
I see more nonsense talk without any Scripture reference from you than from him ...
Others here, what will your excuse be when you face God?
Be concerned about your own fate ... and shed your insights from Scripture to refute others' points when you think they are wrong.
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He offers scripture references (which anyone can check with their preferred Bible version ... YOU provide NOTHING from Scripture, why??
I far prefer to discuss Scripture, but what I see here is endless wresting of Scripture. We can get there, but by analogy, to discuss calculus with someone who denies simple addition is futile.
Oddly, blasting away with hackneyed distortions of Scripture seems to be used by some to fog out attempts to lay foundation stones. Your accusation of my not using Scripture in my arguments would seem valid if Scripture were used for understanding rather than a passages to delightfully mangle. I have little interest in feeding such a furnace. If we can get to Scripture honestly, Scripture is my great delight to explore.
Maybe, just maybe, we have people here who really have been deceived, pure and simple. Maybe we have some who simply don't understand. I would love to be wrong and could be, but what I sense is that some people who know the truth, reject it, and deliberately do all the evil damage they can and seem to gloat in doing so. Maybe I am wrong. I hope so.
Jaydubs, Mormons, Muslims, and such ilk are uniquely hard to reach. But not impossible.
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I far prefer to discuss Scripture, but what I see here is endless wresting of Scripture. We can get there, but by analogy, to discuss calculus with someone who denies simple addition is futile.
Seems more like you are unwilling to discuss Scripture .... and smartly try and put the blame on others. I've heard such behavior being described as a lousy cop-out.
But thanks for clarifying your manner of thinking and mindset
If we can get to Scripture honestly, Scripture is my great delight to explore.
I already got to Scripture honestly in my last post ... but your action above does not indicate that Scripture is your delight.
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Witnessing the deliberate mutilation of the Word of God is not my delight; nor something I wish to feed.
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Witnessing the deliberate mutilation of the Word of God is not my delight; nor something I wish to feed
Is that the reason why you then don't engage with Scripture but only your church tradition majority belief ideas?? Actually, those dogmas and trinity church doctrines are indeed what one might consider a mutilation of the Word of God with their unscriptural concepts and ideas ...
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There is that scripture you quote about casting pearls before swine, though some people here seem to more a case of casting swine before pearls.
That doesn't sound nice. But it is relevant scripture.
There is a time for Scripture. If that time comes, you shall have plenty. There is a time for reason and parable. I discern this the time for those. I have read enough on these forums to see that Scripture is commonly shredded, torn and trampled in the mud. When people are serious about Scripture and n0t just baiting for passages to gleefully mangle, then I will be more accommodating of your deep hunger for the Word of God.
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There is that scripture you quote about casting pearls before swine, though some people here seem to more a case of casting swine before pearls.
I will take that advice with you ...
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What did the Jewish Rabbi Jesus teach Jewish disciples of Jesus about believing in John 14:1 ?
Eight Koine Greek Bible words were spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus to Jewish disciples of Jesus in John 14:1
πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε (John 14:1 SBLGNT)
πιστεύετε - to believe - verb, present, active, indicative/imperative, 2nd person, plural "Be ye believing" (continuous action in present time)
εἰς - in - preposition
τὸν - the - article, accusative, singular, masculine (accusative case shows object of preposition εἰς)
θεόν, - God - noun, accusative, singular, masculine (grammatical case, number, gender agrees with article)
καὶ - also - adverb/particle, emphatic
εἰς - in - preposition
ἐμὲ - me - pronoun, personal, 1st person, accusative, singular (accusative case shows object of preposition εἰς)
πιστεύετε - to believe: verb, present, active, indicative/imperative, 2nd person, plural "Be ye believing" (continuous action in present time)
Be ye believing in the God, also in me Be ye believing (John 14:1 literal translation)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus November 6 If God did not have wisdom, how could God create wisdom ? (logically seems impossible to create wisdom without already having wisdom)
@BroRando November 6 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah. Isaiah 55:8
God is too wise to make a mistake, which is quite different than humans making many mistakes (e.g. unfullfilled Watch Tower predictions).
Repeating question: If God did not have wisdom, how could God create wisdom ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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What did the Jewish Rabbi Jesus teach Jewish disciples of Jesus about believing in John 14:1 ?
Obviously NOT that there was a 2nd God ("me") in addition to "God", nor was he teaching them that he and God were "one plural God duo" ("me" and "God"), You think he was teaching them that there was a "plural three voices God (the word "God") and that he was "what?" in addition to that plural God ....
Jesus was teaching them that as they were believing in God, they should believe in him as being God's Messiah. Is that too simple for Jewish tradition ?
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“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith Also in Me. In the house of My Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my Way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be. And where I am going, you know the Way.” (John 14:1-4)
"I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the Way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Pay attention to Him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because My Name is in Him." (Exodus 23:20-21)
Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and Your Father and to My God and Your God.” (John 20:17)
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@BroRando November 10 "Is Thie World Going to End?" links to JW organization publication
October 30 comment lists many failed predictions proving JW organization is NOT a truthful way to know אלהים God. Description "Planet Earth will not become a lifeless wasteland or be destroyed completely" from untrustworthy Watchtower society reminds me of "Yea, hath God said ?" in Genesis 3:1 that was followed by humans believing the father of lies deception, which resulted in human sin actions (instead of humans believing & obeying Holy command from אלהים God).
What does Jesus teach about The Way to אלהים God in John 14:1-7 ?
John 14:1-7 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God in LXX) => “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in אלהים God; believe also in me. In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places; but if not, I would have told you, because I am going away to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, so that where I am, you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “יהוה Lord, we do not know where you are going. How are we able to know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.”
Where were the Israelites traveling in Exodus 23:20-26 ? Who was guarding & guiding the Jewish journey over 3,333 years ago ?
Exodus 23:20-26 LEB => “ ‘Look, I am about to send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, because he will not forgive your transgression, for my name is in him. But if you listen attentively to his voice and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and a foe to your foes. When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, I will wipe them out. “ ‘You will not bow to their אלהים gods, and you will not serve them, and you will not act according to their actions, because you will utterly demolish them, and you will utterly break their stone pillars. And you will serve יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will remove sickness from among you. There will be no one suffering miscarriage or infertile in your land. I will make full the number of your days.
@BroRando November 10 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and Your Father and to My God and Your God.” (John 20:17)
What did Jesus Christ offer in the most Holy place ?
Hebrews 9:1-28 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of אלהים as God in LXX) => Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and the earthly sanctuary. For a tent was prepared, the first one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the presentation of the loaves, which is called the holy place. And after the second curtain was a tent called the holy of holies, containing the golden incense altar and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which were a golden jar containing the manna and the rod of Aaron that budded and the tablets of the covenant. And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat, about which it is not now possible to speak in detail. Now these things having been prepared in this way, the priests enter into the first tent continually as they accomplish their service, but only the high priest enters into the second tent once a year, not without blood, which he offers on behalf of himself and the sins of the people committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was making this clear, that the way into the holy place was not yet revealed, while the first tent was still in existence, which was a symbol for the present time, in which both the gifts and sacrifices which were offered were not able to perfect the worshiper with respect to the conscience, concerning instead only food and drink and different washings, regulations of outward things imposed until the time of setting things right. But Christ has arrived as a high priest of the good things to come. Through the greater and more perfect tent not made by hands, that is, not of this creation, and not by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once for all into the most holy place, obtaining eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled sanctify them for the ritual purity of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to אלהים God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living אלהים God? And because of this, he is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions committed during the first covenant, those who are the called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a will, it is a necessity for the death of the one who made the will to be established. For a will is in force concerning those who are dead, since it is never in force when the one who made the will is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was ratified without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that אלהים God has commanded for you.” And likewise he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the utensils of service with the blood. Indeed, nearly everything is purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the sketches of the things in heaven to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves to be purified with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of אלהים God on our behalf, and not in order that he can offer himself many times, as the high priest enters into the sanctuary year by year with blood not his own, since it would have been necessary for him to suffer many times from the foundation of the world, but now he has appeared once at the end of the ages for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment, thus also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for the second time without reference to sin to those who eagerly await him for salvation.
FWIW: Christ lemma in Koine Greek has been assigned Strong's # 5547
5547. Χριστός Christŏs, khris-tos´; from 5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:—Christ.
Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 78). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
Χριστός translates Hebrew Strongs # 4899
4899. מָשִׁיחַ mâshîyach, maw-shee´-akh; from 4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); spec. the Messiah:—anointed, Messiah.
Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 2, p. 74). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus November 10 What did the Jewish Rabbi Jesus teach Jewish disciples of Jesus about believing in John 14:1 ?
@Wolfgang November 10 Obviously NOT that there was a 2nd God ("me") in addition to "God"
We agree as the Jewish Rabbi Jesus knew & obeyed Jewish Scripture commandments:
Exodus 20:1-21 LEB => And אלהים God spoke all these words, saying, “I am יהוה Yahweh, your אלהים God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves. “There shall be for you no other אלהים gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth. You will not bow down to them, and you will not serve them, because I am יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God, a jealous אל God, punishing the guilt of the parents on the children on the third and on the fourth generations of those hating me, and showing loyal love to thousands of generations of those loving me and of those keeping my commandments. “You shall not misuse the name of יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God, because יהוה Yahweh will not leave unpunished anyone who misuses his name. “Remember the day of the Sabbath, to consecrate it. Six days you will work, and you will do all your work. But the seventh day is a Sabbath for יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God; you will not do any work—you or your son or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your animal, or your alien who is in your gates—because in six days יהוה Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and on the seventh day he rested. Therefore יהוה Yahweh blessed the seventh day and consecrated it. “Honor your father and your mother, so that your days can be long on the land that יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God is giving you. “You shall not murder. “You shall not commit adultery. “You shall not steal. “You shall not testify against your neighbor with a false witness. “You shall not covet the house of your neighbor; you will not covet the wife of your neighbor or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that is your neighbor’s.” And all the people were seeing the thunder and the lightning and the sound of the ram’s horn and the mountain smoking, and the people saw, and they trembled, and they stood at a distance. And they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will listen, but let not אלהים God speak with us, lest we die.” And Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. אלהים God has come to test you so that his fear will be before you so that you do not sin.” And the people stood at a distance, and Moses approached the very thick cloud where אלהים God was.
Deuteronomy 5:1-33 LEB => And then Moses summoned all of Israel and said to them, “Hear, Israel, the rules and the regulations that I am speaking in your ears today, and you shall learn them, and you must observe them diligently. יהוה Yahweh our אלהים God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our ancestors that Yahweh made this covenant, but with these of us who are here alive today. Face to face יהוה Yahweh spoke with you at the mountain from the midst of the fire. I was standing between יהוה Yahweh and you at that time to report to you the word of יהוה Yahweh, for you were afraid because of the presence of the fire, and so you did not go up the mountain. He said, ‘I am יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. There shall not be for you other אלהים gods besides me. ‘You shall not make for yourself a divine image of any type of form that is in the heaven above or that is on the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth. ‘You shall not bow down to them, and you shall not serve them, for I, יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God, am a jealous אל God, punishing the guilt of fathers upon their children and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of those hating me, but showing loyal love to thousands of those who love me and of those who keep my commandments. ‘You shall not take up the name of יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God for a worthless purpose, for יהוה Yahweh will not leave unpunished anyone who uses his name for a worthless purpose. ‘Observe the Sabbath day to make it holy, just as יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God has commanded you. Six days you shall work, and you shall do all of your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath unto יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God; you shall not do any work, or your son, or your daughter, or your slave, or your slave woman, or your ox, or your donkey, or any of your domestic animals, or your resident alien who is in your towns, so that your slave and your slave woman may rest as you rest. And you shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God brought you out with a strong hand and with an outstretched arm; therefore, יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God commanded you to keep the Sabbath. ‘Honor your father and your mother, as Yahweh your אלהים God commanded you, so that it will be good for you in the land that יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God is giving to you. ‘You shall not murder. ‘And you shall not commit adultery. ‘And you shall not steal. ‘And you shall not falsely bear evidence against your neighbor. ‘And you shall not covet the wife of your neighbor, and you shall not crave the house of your neighbor, his field or his slave or his slave woman or his ox and his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.’ “These words יהוה Yahweh spoke to your whole assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire and the very thick cloud with a loud voice, and he did not add anything, and then he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me. And then when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, and as the mountain was burning with fire, and all the heads of your tribes and your elders approached me, you said, ‘Look, יהוה Yahweh our אלהים God has shown us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice from the midst of the fire; this day we have seen that אלהים God can speak with a human being, yet he remains alive. And so then why shall we die, for this great fire will consume us if we continue to hear the voice of יהוה Yahweh our אלהים God any longer, and so we shall die? For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living אלהים God speaking from the midst of the fire as we have heard it and remained alive? You go near and hear everything that יהוה Yahweh our אלהים God will say; and then you tell us all that יהוה Yahweh our אלהים God tells you, and we will listen, and we will do it.’ “And יהוה Yahweh heard the sound of your words when you spoke to me, and יהוה Yahweh said to me, ‘I have heard the sound of the words of this people that they have spoken to you; they are right with respect to all that they have spoken. If only they had such a mind’; that is, to fear me and to keep all my commandments at all times, so that it will go well for them and for their children forever. Go! Say to them, “Return to your tents.” But you stand here with me, and let me tell you all of the commandments and the rules and the regulations that you shall teach them, so that they may do them in the land that I am giving to them to take possession of it.’ “So you must be careful to do just as יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God commanded you; you shall not turn to the right or to the left. In exactly the path that יהוה Yahweh your אלהים God has commanded, you must go, so that you may live and it will go well for you and you may live long in the land that you will take possession of.”
Holy is the voice of יהוה Yahweh אלהים God, which can be terrifying to anyone who wants to love something more than יהוה Yahweh אלהים God.
Internet image search for Jebel al-Lawz shows a mountain whose top is darkened. Valley nearby has some rocks with cows carved on the side.
@Wolfgang November 10 ..., nor was he teaching them that he and God were "one plural God duo" ("me" and "God"), You think he was teaching them that there was a "plural three voices God (the word "God") and that he was "what?" in addition to that plural God ....
Again your words incorrectly describe what Jewish Rabbi Jesus was saying to Jewish disciples of Jesus. Also your words incorrectly describe me.
Be ye believing in the אלהים God, also in me Be ye believing (John 14:1 literal translation with Jewish Hebrew word for plural e-lo-HEEM God)
@Wolfgang November 10 Jesus was teaching them that as they were believing in God, they should believe in him as being God's Messiah. Is that too simple for Jewish tradition ?
Jewish description of Moshiach (Messiah) => https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332562/jewish/Moshiach-101.htm
God provided prophecy so you could identify the Messiah. Read Psalm 2.
◦ The Messiah will come from the lineage of David. Jeremiah 23:5–6
◦ The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2
◦ The Messiah will bring honor to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1, 6
◦ The Messiah will be rejected by His own. Isaiah 53:3
◦ The Messiah will die for the sins of all people. Isaiah 53:6
◦ The Messiah will have soldiers cast lots for His garments. Psalm 22:18
◦ The Messiah will come before destruction of the second temple (AD 70). Daniel 9:26
◦ The Messiah will arise from the dead. Psalm 16:10
June Hunt, Biblical Counseling Keys on Jewish Fulfillment: Finding the Peace God Promises (Dallas, TX: Hope For The Heart, 2008), 23.
Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB => “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’
Jeremiah 23:5-6 is truthfully consistent with John 14:1as Jesus is 'יהוה Yahweh righteousness We'
Hebrew word for צדקנו righteousness has 1st person plural suffix that can be translated as: Our or We.
Remember studious Jewish Religous Leaders understand John 10:30 as Jesus saying "The Father and I are one יהוה" that is shown in John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you are a man, make yourself to be אלהים God!”
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Wolfgang November 10 Jesus was teaching them that as they were believing in God, they should believe in him as being God's Messiah. Is that too simple for Jewish tradition ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jewish description of Moshiach (Messiah) => https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332562/jewish/Moshiach-101.htm
All the points you then listed and quoted from this source do NOT - not in any way - propagate or support your idea of the Messiah being in any manner himself God, but is always spoken of as a human being separate from and not part of "one plural God".
See, the reply to your lengthy tiring posts only takes a few lines ...
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, which of your three God-voices / persons is actually speaking when we read of God or YHWH stating things in singular (e.g. in the thousands of places in OT scriptures)? For example, in Exo 20.
Exo 20:1-2 (NASB)
1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me
That sounds rather plainly like a singular individual speaking! Do you mean to tell us it was one "God-trio" disguising themselves as one singular individual ?? Or is there a possibility for an error in your ideas of making "God" a Trio ??
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Who is the Son of יהוה Yahweh ? How can we take refuge in the King Son of יהוה Yahweh ?
Psalm 2:1-12 LEB => Why are nations in tumult, and countries plotting in vain? The kings of the earth establish themselves, and the rulers conspire together against יהוה Yahweh and his anointed: “Let us tear off their bonds, and cast their cords from us!” He who sits enthroned in the heavens laughs. The Lord derides them. Then he speaks to them in his wrath, and in his fury he terrifies them: “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will tell the decree; יהוה Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you. Ask from me and I will make the nations your heritage, and your possession the ends of the earth. You will break them with an iron rod. Like a potter’s vessel you will shatter them.” So then, O kings, be wise. Be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve יהוה Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
How can a child be born who is Mighty אל God & Everlasting Father ?
Isaiah 9:1-7 LEB => But there will be no gloom for those who were in distress. In former times he treated the land of Zebulun and Naphtali with contempt, but in the future he will honor the way of the sea beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; light has shined on those who lived in a land of darkness. You have made the nation numerous; you have not made the joy great. They rejoice in your presence as with joy at the harvest, as they rejoice when they divide plunder. For you have shattered the yoke of its burden and the stick of its shoulder, the rod of its oppressor, on the day of Midian. For every boot that marches and shakes the earth and garment rolled in blood will be for burning—fire fuel. For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty אל God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His dominion will grow continually, and to peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it with justice and righteousness now and forever. The zeal of יהוה Yahweh of hosts will do this.
What name did the Son of יהוה Yahweh receive ?
Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB => “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, and where is your answer to the question I asked you in light of your "plural God" ideas? Did you miss the question? It was:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, which of your three God-voices / persons is actually speaking when we read of God or YHWH stating things in singular (e.g. in the thousands of places in OT scriptures)? For example, in Exo 20.
1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me
That sounds rather plainly like a singular individual speaking! Do you mean to tell us it was one "God-trio" disguising themselves as one singular individual ?? Or is there a possibility for an error in your ideas of making "God" a Trio ??
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