Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?

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  • @Bill_Coley wrote: Your contention that the "holy zygote" inside Mary was "both human and God" comports with your Christology, but in my view doesn't comport with the witness of the whole of the New Testament - specifically verses such as...

    Acts 2.22-24 - “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

    Holy Spirit (God) inspiring Peter's talk in Acts 2:14-36 clearly expresses Jesus being both Man (vv 22-24) and God (vv 25, 33-36) that is followed by verse 37 crowd reaction of being cut to their heart. Remember Peter was addressing the crowd because some in Jerusalem said "They have had too much wine." as an explanation for God-fearing Jews from many different locations in the world intelligently understanding ("hearing") apostles speaking in their own languages because the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit (God).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Jesus is a "man" to whom God attests, and through whom God acts with wonders and signs. Clearly, the one through whom acts are done is NOT the one doing the acts. That is, according the Peter, Jesus is the conduit of divine action, NOT the cause of divine action.

    Peter knew he was a man through whom God acted (conduit) so Peter refused worship in Acts 10:25-26 (from Cornelius). An angel in Revelation 19:10 clearly refused from John since the angel was a servant (conduit) for divine action.

    Bible shows Jesus received worship (without refusal), which is consistent with Jesus knowing He is God (from above in John 8:23) along with being the conduit & cause of divine action. Earlier in this discussion has many verses clearly showing human worship of Jesus => https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/13445/#Comment_13445 that includes Lord (יהוה God) worship:

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:

    Matthew 8:2 (LEB) And behold, a leper approached and worshiped him, saying, “Lord, if you are willing, you are able to make me clean.”

    Matthew 15:25 (NLT) But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lordhelp me!”

    Matthew 20:20 (KJV) Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 

    Matthew 28:9 (NLT) And behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

    Mark 5:6 (KJV) But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him

    John 9:38 (NLT) “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 

    john 20:26-28 (NLT) The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said. Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!” “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed

    Many worshippers of Jesus called Him Lord, which is often a translation of יהוה in LXX. The Legion of demons in a possessed man in Mark 5:6 worshipped Jesus along with begging God not to be tormented.

    If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship is sin, which disqualifies (blemishes) Jesus from being Savior for anyone so Acts 4:12 becomes untenable => why should anyone be saved from their own sin against God by invoking the name of a sinner ?

    If Jesus is God, then Jesus receiving worship is appropriate plus Acts 4:12 truthfully applies, which is consistent with John 14:6. Remember Thomas asked Jesus "How can we know the way ?" in John 14:5 that was followed by Thomas refusing to believe many accounts about resurrection of Jesus until Thomas could physically touch nail marks and side (where Roman executioner confirmed human body had died) per John 20:25. Personally am amazed by Holy glorified body of Jesus retaining marks of human crucifixion (sacrifice for sin).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Jesus died. God raised Jesus from the dead. The one who does the raising is not the same as the one who is raised. What interpretation of Peter's words makes sense other than that Peter does NOT believe Jesus is God or part human and part God?

    Makes sense for dead human body of Jesus to be Joyfully raised by all of One God (Two voices were above while One voice was below when dead human body of Jesus was in the tomb). Ephesians 4:9-10 includes Jesus descended into the lower earthly regions (after crucifixion death) so something remained alive after human body died.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Romans 5.15-17 - But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

    Paul refers to Jesus as "this other man" through whom God's forgiveness is given to many, and "this one man" through whom God's grace is imparted. I find no sense in either this passage or Paul's wider writings that he believes Jesus is "both human and God."

    Larger context of Romans 5 clearly declares Jesus Christ is Lord (v 11), Man (vv 15-17), and Lord (v 21). Contemporary synagogue usage: κύριος (Lord) = Adonai => יהוה (God). Only God gives Grace through righteousness for eternal life.

    • 1 Corinthians 15.44-47 - If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

    Paul's wider writings include 1 Corinthians 15.44-47 clarification about the first man, Adam, being from dust (natural) while the second man (Jesus) is from heaven (spiritual).

    Hebrews 3:1-6 contrasts Moses being a faithful servant (man) in God's house while Jesus is God's Son over God's house, which is worthy of more honor (clearly asserts Jesus is more than a man).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: 1 Timothy 2.5 - For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

    Jesus is "the man" who mediates between God and humanity. Yet again, no sense that Jesus is "both human and God."

    Larger context of 1 Timothy declares Jesus is our Lord (vv 1:2, 1:12, 1:14), Man (v 2:5), and Lord (v 6:14) = both human and God.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: New Testament writers on several occasions assert that Jesus is a "man" through whom God acts. Given the clear distinction drawn by the verses I just cited, how is it possible for the Jesus those writers describe to be "both human and God"?

    From my perspective, "clear distinction" in verses cited reminds me of Jeremiah 17:9-10 (deceptiveness of human heart) that continues to blindly ignore (or rationalize away) contextual meaning of Scripture: e.g. Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, .... Mighty God, ..." plus "Immanuel" (God with us) in Isaiah 7:14 that has a prophetic fulfillment in Matthew 1:23

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Examples of Peter's use of "Lord" in reference to Jesus where his meaning is clearly NOT that Jesus is God are many. Here's one:

    John 6.68-6968 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

    Peter has come to know that the one he calls "Lord" is "the Holy One of God," language whose most natural and sensible meaning is that Peter believes the "Holy one OF God" is different from - i.e. other than - God. If Peter believed Jesus was God, he would have said, "We have come to know you are God." But that's NOT what Peter said.

    Evil spirit(s) in Mark 1:24 and Luke 4:34 said "I know who you are - the Holy One of God" to identify Jesus after asking "Have you come to destroy us?" God has the ability to destroy evil spirit(s) while man does not. Jesus gave disciples authority to cast out unclean spirit(s), but not destroy. Wonder how many times Peter heard unclean spirit(s) "know" Jesus as "the Holy One of God" followed by Jesus commanding unclean spirit(s) to be quiet and leave.

    FYI: the English word "of" in the phrase "the Holy One of God" is one way to translate grammatical genitive/ablative usage in phrase "ὁ ἅγιος τοῦ θεοῦ" that could also be: "the Holy from the God", "the Holy belonging to the God" (One in English reflects "The Holy" being singular).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: You characterize the theological question I raised in my previous post as "intriguing". I respect your word choice, but don't believe you have directly addressed the intrigue. The question is, can the will of one you say is God - Jesus - in ANY way conflict with the will of the one we both say is God - the "Father" to whom Jesus prays at Gethsemane?

    Prayers at Gethsemane lacks second witness to prove any conflict ("hearing" only one voice in a conversation so have to guess what other voice is saying). Disciples were asleep when Jesus was praying. Holy Spirit (God) inspired Gospel writers to include prayers.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: * You point out that Jesus "humbly chose" to comply with God's will. Yes, but the issue isn't whether Jesus ultimately obeyed; it's whether Jesus ever disagreed. When Jesus says to God, "take this cup from me," he expresses a personal will that is clearly at odds with God's will for him. His subsequent act of surrender to God's will is wondrous and inspiring, of course, but it is also proof of his personal will's conflict with God's will.

    Concur spoken words by Jesus are wondrous and inspiring, which includes John 12:44-50 that ends with "... Therefore what I say, I say as the Father tells me."

    Intense intimacy between The Will (God: Father) and The Word (God: Son) allows humans to live on every word of God so humans can do God's Will, which is another aspect of John 10:30 "I and The Father are One". While humanly understanding God's salvation plan via crucifixion being designed before the world was created, can appreciate desire to avoid intense Love separation by both The Will (Father) and The Word (Son) so Jesus prays in Matthew 26:39 "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." that absolutely verifies no other way is possible for human sins against Holy God to be forgiven. Holy penalty for sin is death.

    Contrast prayers beginning with "Father, if it is possible ..." in Garden of Gethsemane with John 17 that begins with Loving address followed by a willful command: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You." All of God participated in the crucifixion. None of God commanded angel(s) to stop it.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: * You interpret Jesus' plea for the cup to pass from him in terms of your personal assessment of the impact of "Love separation" from God. But where in the text do you find any such reflection in Jesus' prayer? He simply asks God to allow the cup to pass from him, a request whose most direct meaning is that he doesn't want to die. How he valued "Love separation," in my view, doesn't change the fact that his personal will conflicted with God's will. Can one who is God have a will that conflicts with God's will?

    From a human only perspective without resurrection confidence, can appreciate "doesn't want to die" view. Remember a few days earlier the object lesson of Lazarus being raised from the dead. Jesus knew human body would be resurrected like Lazarus, which Jesus tried to teach disciples before crucifixion (meaning was hidden from disciples until after resurrection). Including "God is Love" (all Love is God while God is more than Love) perspective provides insight for stress showing in sweat like great drops of blood in Luke 22:44 since Psalm 22 and Isaiah 52:13-53:12 are part of the cup. In fact, beginning of Psalm 22 is one of the seven sayings by Jesus on the cross, which shows Holy Father in heaven turned away from unholy stench of Jesus being sacrificed (heart rendering & gut wrenching for both).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: * Finally, you reference some of Jesus' miraculous actions. Those actions don't address the central question of conflicting wills, and are also explained by Peter's Acts 2 sermon, where he proclaimed the mighty works God had done "through" Jesus. (Acts 2.22)

    Observation: "through" does not preclude being the willful cause of divine action.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: What human can create as they speak (abracadabra is an Aramaic word) that includes turning physical stone(s) into bread ? (Matthew 4:1-4 & Luke 4:1-4) Could this temptation to sin have been a real test if Jesus did not have His own free will to choose ?
    Matthew 8:23-27 ends with the disciples asking “What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?” (ESV) that shows words spoken by Jesus have power to command physical nature.
    

    @Bill_Coley wrote: As for how Jesus controlled the waves, revisit Peter's proclamation of God's mighty works "through" Jesus.

    Situation: stormy seas with wind blowing. Action: Jesus spoke. Nature obeyed by wind ceasing and calm water, which show words had impact greater than immediate surroundings. How does "through" explain physical nature obeying words of Jesus without Jesus being the cause of divine action ? (can appreciate experienced fishermen attributing cause & effect to Jesus so wonder what sort of man is this)

    @Bill_Coley wrote: We agree that Jesus had free will. But the question is the content of his will, not its freedom. Jesus' will clearly conflicted with God's will. Such a discrepancy raises no alarms when its your will and my will at odds with God's. But when the one you say is God has a will that's at odd's with God's will, in my view, THAT'S a problem... one you have yet to address directly.

    Please explain relationship of free will in Jesus and "through" divine action with regard for reality of temptation tests: e.g. spoken words of Jesus that can change physical stones into bread (words causing divine action).

    Believe my answer to your question "can the will of one you say is God - Jesus - in ANY way conflict with the will of the one we both say is God - the "Father" to whom Jesus prays at Gethsemane?" is No. If wills could truly conflict, then "I and The Father are One" is problematic.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: In my view, Jesus as "the Son of God" is not a reference to his genealogical family tree, but rather to his spiritual relation with God. In the opening verses of Romans, Paul says Jesus was "declared to be the Son of God" in the resurrection: (Romans 1.1-4, ESV)...

    Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

    Opening of Romans also includes genealogical family tree "descended from David" (man) plus our Lord (יהוה God).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Isaiah's 7.14's fulfillment not until the birth of Jesus would be a shock to the prophet. As I pointed out in my previous post, Isaiah projects that before the child "knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good," the land of the two nations King Ahaz fears (Israel and Syria)will be "deserted." (Isaiah 7.16) CLEARLY, Isaiah does NOT mean Ahaz will have to wait 700 years for the threat of those nations to be neutralized. I think it's clear the prophet believes the child of the sign he offers to Ahaz already has been born, or soon will be born.

    If I'm correct - and please show my error from the prophet's text, if you believe I'm not right - then in your view, does that mean the prophet was wrong about the time frame of the child he predicted?

    A prophet of God is truly a conduit for יהוה God's words. 2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95) But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

    Possibly a child "knows how" fulfillment of Isaiah 7:16 is Maher-shalal-hash-baz (The spoil comes quickly, the prey hurries.) in Isaiah 8:3-4 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; for before the boy knows how to cry out ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.”

    Searching Bible text for Immanuel finds three verses: Isaiah 7:14, 8:8, and Matthew 1:23, which has Immanuel "God with us" fulfillment => Jesus

    Humanly suspect prophet Zechariah did not know ~2,000 years were between verses 9 and 10 in Zechariah chapter 9.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    Holy Spirit (God) inspiring Peter's talk in Acts 2:14-36 clearly expresses Jesus being both Man (vv 22-24) and God (vv 25, 33-36) that is followed by verse 37 crowd reaction of being cut to their heart.

    • In Acts 2.25, Peters quotes from Psalm 16 in order to refer to God - to the one who "will not abandon my soul to Hades or let your Holy One see corruption" - NOT to Jesus, whom in Acts 2.23 Peter identifies as the one God raised (i.e. the one whose soul God did "not abandon to Hades").
    • In Acts 2.33-36, Peter quotes from Psalm 110 in order to refer to God and to the one God invites to sit at God's right hand. In Peter's mind, who is the one God invited to sit at God's right hand? Jesus. (Acts 2.33)

    BOTTOM LINE: Neither of the texts to which you refer reports that Peter believes Jesus is God. Both in fact make a clear and inescapable distinction between God and Jesus, the one whose soul is not abandoned and who is invited to sit at God's right hand.


    Peter knew he was a man through whom God acted (conduit) so Peter refused worship in Acts 10:25-26 (from Cornelius). An angel in Revelation 19:10 clearly refused from John since the angel was a servant (conduit) for divine action.

    • What Peter believed as to whether he himself deserved worship has no effect on the clear meaning of his words in Acts 2.22: Jesus was a "man" "through whom" God did mighty things. That makes Jesus the conduit of God's actions, NOT the source of God's actions.
    • Read beyond v.26 in Acts 10 - for example, the following passage from later in the chapter, but still in the same scene with Peter and Cornelius. (emphasis added)

    36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 10:36–43). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

    The distinction Peter makes between Jesus and God could not be more clear. Jesus is the one God "anointed with the Holy Spirit," the one God "raised" and "made...to appear," and he is the one God "appointed" to be "judge of the living and the dead." Therefore, Jesus is not, and cannot be, God.

    As for Revelation 19.10, I encourage you to revisit the verse:

    10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Re 19:9–10). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

    The angel describes himself as a "fellow servant" with John and his brothers, as one who "hold[s] to the testimony of Jesus." Peter described Jesus as the "man" "through whom God did "mighty works and wonders and signs." (Acts 2.22) The angel does NOT claim that God did "mighty works and wonders and signs" through him, which strongly suggests the angel is NOT the conduit of God's action that Jesus is.


    Bible shows Jesus received worship (without refusal), which is consistent with Jesus knowing He is God (from above in John 8:23) along with being the conduit & cause of divine action. Earlier in this discussion has many verses clearly showing human worship of Jesus => https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/13445/#Comment_13445 that includes Lord (יהוה God) worship:

    It's worth noting that four of the first five verses you cite do NOT include the word "worship," at least not in the translations I consulted. In one instance - Matthew 8.2 - you seem to have found the one translation that deploys "worship" in its take on the verse, whereas nearly every other translation reports that the leper merely "knelt" before Jesus. The same is true with Matthew 15.25 and the NLT. MOST translations in MOST of the verses you cite report kneeling down, not "worship," a fact which leads to my other observation:

    The larger issue is the intention/conviction behind a person's offering of "worship." In the instances I just cited, "worship" is kneeling down, perhaps in gratitude or intense need. If that's the cause of the "worship," then it's not evidence of Jesus' being God. And such an explanation would explain Jesus' receiving worship "without refusal" - it was not worship of deity at all.

    Then there's Mark 10.17-18, where a man kneels before Jesus - very much in keeping with the "worship" cited in several of the verses you cite - and as an introduction to a question about eternal life calls Jesus "Good Teacher." Jesus responds, "Why do you call me good? ... Only God is truly good." (Mark 10.18, NLT) I read Jesus' response to the man as an explicit rejection of identification as God.

    And in the New Testament portion of my devotional Bible reading this morning I read John 4, the story of Jesus and the woman at the well. Notice what he tells her about worship:

    21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”


    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jn 4:20–24). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

    What better occasion for Jesus to claim his divinity, that he is worthy of worship. But he doesn't make the claim. In fact, he claims instead that he is among those who "worship what [they] know." Jesus tells the woman that the one who is to be worshiped is God, the one Jesus calls "Father."


    If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship is sin, which disqualifies (blemishes) Jesus from being Savior for anyone so Acts 4:12 becomes untenable => why should anyone be saved from their own sin against God by invoking the name of a sinner ?

    There is no indication in any of the verses you cited that Jesus accepted others' "worship" as a declaration that he (Jesus) was God.

    In my view, God can anoint anyone for any role God chooses.

    Notice that in Acts 4.10 - two verses prior to the one you cite - Peter calls Jesus the "man" God raised. I don't know how the distinction between God and the one God raised could be clearer.


    If Jesus is God, then Jesus receiving worship is appropriate plus Acts 4:12 truthfully applies, which is consistent with John 14:6. Remember Thomas asked Jesus "How can we know the way ?" in John 14:5 that was followed by Thomas refusing to believe many accounts about resurrection of Jesus until Thomas could physically touch nail marks and side (where Roman executioner confirmed human body had died) per John 20:25. Personally am amazed by Holy glorified body of Jesus retaining marks of human crucifixion (sacrifice for sin).

    I see no indication in John 14.6 of a claim of divinity from Jesus. He claims only to be "the way" to the one he calls "Father," which consistently, in my view, is the term Jesus uses to refer to God. In a sense, I think it's fair to describe this an another implementation of the image of Jesus as a conduit: Not only does God do mighty works through him, but people get to God through him.


    Makes sense for dead human body of Jesus to be Joyfully raised by all of One God (Two voices were above while One voice was below when dead human body of Jesus was in the tomb). Ephesians 4:9-10 includes Jesus descended into the lower earthly regions (after crucifixion death) so something remained alive after human body died.

    Peter says nothing in his Acts sermons about multiple voices, above, below, or in between. He says simply and directly that God raised "the man" Jesus. (Acts 4.10) The inference could not be more clear: The one raised cannot be the one who does the raising. Jesus cannot be God.


    Larger context of Romans 5 clearly declares Jesus Christ is Lord (v 11), Man (vv 15-17), and Lord (v 21). Contemporary synagogue usage: κύριος (Lord) = Adonai => יהוה (God). Only God gives Grace through righteousness for eternal life.

    The fuller context of Romans 5 makes clear Paul's distinction between God and Jesus:

    • Romans 5.1 - We have peace with God because of what Jesus has done for us. NO mention in the verse that the one who gave us peace with God was actually God.
    • Romans 5.8 - God shows us great love in sending Jesus to us. As a result of his action, we have been made right with God and saved from God's condemnation (Romans 5.9) NO mention in the verses that the one who has made us right with God is actually God.
    • Romans 5.11 - Jesus has made us friends of God. NO mention in the verse that the one who has made us friends with God is actually God.
    • Romans 5.15 - Through "the one man, Jesus Christ" we receive God's wonderful grace.
    • Romans 5.17 - Through "the one man, Jesus Christ," we receive God's grace and righteousness.
    • Romans 5.21 - "Through Jesus Christ our Lord" God's we are led to  eternal life.


    Paul's wider writings include 1 Corinthians 15.44-47 clarification about the first man, Adam, being from dust (natural) while the second man (Jesus) is from heaven (spiritual).

    In 1 Corinthians 15.57, Paul returns to what God does "through" the second Adam known as Jesus: Through him we receive "victory over sin and death." Again, NO mention in the verse that the one through whom God gives us victory is actually God.


    Hebrews 3:1-6 contrasts Moses being a faithful servant (man) in God's house while Jesus is God's Son over God's house, which is worthy of more honor (clearly asserts Jesus is more than a man).

    Hebrews 3.1-2 calls Jesus "the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him." NO mention in the verse that the one God appointed was actually God. NO mention in the verse that the apostle and high priest was actually God. Jesus can be worthy of more glory than Moses without being God.


    From my perspective, "clear distinction" in verses cited reminds me of Jeremiah 17:9-10 (deceptiveness of human heart) that continues to blindly ignore (or rationalize away) contextual meaning of Scripture: e.g. Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, .... Mighty God, ..." plus "Immanuel" (God with us) in Isaiah 7:14 that has a prophetic fulfillment in Matthew 1:23

    Your first sentence here is a repeat of the passive aggressive put down you offered to me earlier in this thread. I didn't think it was appropriate then; I still don't.

    You cite the example of Isaiah 7.14/Matthew 1.23, but you offer no substantive engagement with the textual argument I offered. From the Isaiah text, please show me that the analysis of it I presented in a previous is incorrect.


    Evil spirit(s) in Mark 1:24 and Luke 4:34 said "I know who you are - the Holy One of God" to identify Jesus after asking "Have you come to destroy us?" God has the ability to destroy evil spirit(s) while man does not. Jesus gave disciples authority to cast out unclean spirit(s), but not destroy. Wonder how many times Peter heard unclean spirit(s) "know" Jesus as "the Holy One of God" followed by Jesus commanding unclean spirit(s) to be quiet and leave.

    One sent and empowered by God CAN destroy evil spirits. Can "man" raise the dead? Yes. Peter did. (Acts 9.36-41) Did Peter do that on his own, as a human? Of course not. God raised Dorcas through Peter.


    Prayers at Gethsemane lacks second witness to prove any conflict ("hearing" only one voice in a conversation so have to guess what other voice is saying). Disciples were asleep when Jesus was praying. Holy Spirit (God) inspired Gospel writers to include prayers.

    In my view, the Gethsemane scene is clear: Jesus wants the cup of suffering to pass from him, but surrenders his will to God's will. What could any "other voice" be saying to Jesus at that moment that would render Jesus' comment as anything other than a conflict between his will and God's?

    Intense intimacy between The Will (God: Father) and The Word (God: Son) allows humans to live on every word of God so humans can do God's Will....

    Your comments do nothing to demonstrate that as he began his prayer, Jesus' will was NOT different from God's.


    Situation: stormy seas with wind blowing. Action: Jesus spoke. Nature obeyed by wind ceasing and calm water, which show words had impact greater than immediate surroundings. How does "through" explain physical nature obeying words of Jesus without Jesus being the cause of divine action ? (can appreciate experienced fishermen attributing cause & effect to Jesus so wonder what sort of man is this)

    In Acts 9, Peter spoke and Dorcas returned to life. Do you claim Peter did that raising? Or did God raise her through Peter? The same is true with the words Jesus spoke.


    Please explain relationship of free will in Jesus and "through" divine action with regard for reality of temptation tests: e.g. spoken words of Jesus that can change physical stones into bread (words causing divine action).

    In my view, God is able to work through you and only when we surrender our wills to God's will. But that surrender is a choice, not a certainty. We have the option of defying God's will... and many times we take it. Jesus, too, had the option of defying God's will. But as the temptation and Gethsemane scenes demonstrate, he made the choice not to.


    Believe my answer to your question "can the will of one you say is God - Jesus - in ANY way conflict with the will of the one we both say is God - the "Father" to whom Jesus prays at Gethsemane?" is No. If wills could truly conflict, then "I and The Father are One" is problematic.

    We have common ground here, which in my view creates a challenge for your point of view because Jesus' will at Gethsemane clearly conflicted with God's will. Only Jesus' surrender of his personal will to God's will resolved the conflict.


    Opening of Romans also includes genealogical family tree "descended from David" (man) plus our Lord (יהוה God).

    I contend that when Paul refers to Jesus as our "Lord," he's referring to Jesus as master, as the one we follow. Paul is NOT referring to Lord as "God."


    Possibly a child "knows how" fulfillment of Isaiah 7:16 is Maher-shalal-hash-baz (The spoil comes quickly, the prey hurries.) in Isaiah 8:3-4 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; for before the boy knows how to cry out ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.”

    More common ground. I think the prophet and his companions would tell us the prophecy came to fulfillment LONG before Jesus. I think Matthew would tell us that in Jesus he saw a new kind of fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy, one the prophet had no intention to make.

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    AN ADDENDUM:

    The New Testament portion of my daily Bible reading took me to John 7 today, in which John quotes Jesus as follows:

    • 16 So Jesus told them, “My message is not my own; it comes from God who sent me. 17 Anyone who wants to do the will of God will know whether my teaching is from God or is merely my own. 18 Those who speak for themselves want glory only for themselves, but a person who seeks to honor the one who sent him speaks truth, not lies.

    Tyndale House Publishers. (2013). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (Jn 7:16–18). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.

    Had Jesus believed himself to be God, this was a perfect opportunity for him to claim co-ownership or at least a role in the creation of the message he's brought to the world. But he specifically rejects any role in the message. His message comes from God, he says, not from himself. He says the discerning will be able to tell whether his message is his own or God's, and implies that the truth he speaks honors God, who sent him. As I have contended multiple times, except in rare circumstances, the one sent is not the one who sends.

    In these John 7 verses, every indication Jesus gives as to whether he sees himself as God is that he does NOT see himself as God. So a question begged by these verses is how can Jesus be God if the message he gives in these verses is true?

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463
    edited May 2019

    Bill,

    What's the quality of the New Living Translation (Jn 7:16–18)? Who's behind it? Is it a person or a committee? In short, what's the scholarship behind this work? Is it a translation or paraphrase? What manuscript is this translation based? CM


    PS. If for another thread, I will understand. CM

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @CM said: why hold on to Jesus, if he is just a man? Is Jesus like Mary or is Mary like Jesus? CM

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @C_M_ posted:

    What's the quality of the New Living Translation (Jn 7:16–18)? Who's behind it? Is it a person or a committee? In short, what's the scholarship behind this work? Is it a translation or paraphrase? What manuscript is this translation based?

    The New Living Translation is a translation prepared, as are nearly all Bible translations, by a team. You can review that team's approach and membership (it's comprised of literally dozens of scholars) in the introductory material that fronts the NLT text in your Logos installation.

    Other translations present the same basic distinction between God and Jesus found in the NLT:

    • The ESV quotes Jesus as saying his teaching is not his own, but "his who sent me." In the same verse, the translation also quotes Jesus as differentiating between teaching that is "from God" and teaching that comes from Jesus' "speaking on [his] own."
    • The NRSV's rendering of the verse is substantively the same as the the ESV's.
    • The NIV's rendering of the verse is substantively the same as the the ESV's.
    • The KJV refers to "doctrine" that is "not mine, but his that sent me," and that is either "of God" or the product of Jesus' speaking of himself.

    Your comments about the origins and quality of the NLT raise a legitimate line of inquiry, CM, but one that is quickly addressed and resolved with a few moments of Logos research. What your comments do NOT address, however, is the substance of the John 7 passage to which my previous post referred. In your view, what do Jesus' comments in that passage tell us about his view of the question of whether he is God? Isn't it true that in those comments Jesus draws a clear and inescapable distinction between himself and God? If not, what DOES he say in those verses about himself and God?

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @C_M_ posted:

    [W]hy hold on to Jesus, if he is just a man? Is Jesus like Mary or is Mary like Jesus?

    Because Jesus is the Christ, God's anointed for the ministry of bridging the gap between God and humanity.


    Is Jesus like Mary or is Mary like Jesus?

    I don't know what this question means. Please say some more.

    Jesus and Mary were both human beings, so in that regard, I guess, they were "like" each other. Jesus was Mary's son, so surely some similarities passed along through the family tree. Other than those comments, CM, I have to wait for your elaboration of the question before I can say more.

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Bill_Coley posted:

    In your view, what do Jesus' comments in that passage tell us about his view of the question of whether he is God? Isn't it true that in those comments Jesus draws a clear and inescapable distinction between himself and God? If not, what DOES he say in those verses about himself and God?

    Bill,

    The debate in John 7 & 8, between Jesus and his opponents, the discussion was repetitive and no consensus reached. After a long discussion, no agreement even in Jesus' day, the same hold true today in CD. A certain attitude and mind-set could never be convinced, back then and so it is today. Some are to be left to themselves as Jesus did in his day.

    As for John 8: 24, 28, 58 (also, John 13:19), Jesus claimed the full qualities of the Godhead in language familiar from OT references to Yahweh. The "I am" statements throughout the Gospel should be considered:

    1. Human Self Identification -- John 4:26; 6:20
    2. Divine Self Identification -- John 6:35; John 8:12; 9: 5; John 10:7; John 10:11; John 11:25, 26; 14:6; John 15:1
    3. Absolute Use -- John 13:19; John 8: 24, 28, 58

    Within the OT "I am" functions as a name God. All for now, CM

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463


    @Bill_Coley posted:

    Jesus and Mary were both human beings, so in that regard, I guess, they were "like" each other. Jesus was Mary's son, so surely some similarities passed along through the family tree. Other than those comments, CM, I have to wait for your elaboration of the question before I can say more.

    Bill,

    Is Jesus alive today?

    Is Mary alive today?

    Is Jesus in heaven today?

    Is Mary in heaven today?

    Do people pray in Jesus name?

    Does the Bible teaches praying to Mary?

    Do people pray in Mary's name?

    Is Jesus the Messiah, our Redeemer?

    Is Mary the Messiah, our Redeemer

    Did Mary existed before Abraham?

    Is Joseph the biological father of Jesus?

    Mary is no Jesus! CM

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @C_M_ posted:

    The debate in John 7 & 8, between Jesus and his opponents, the discussion was repetitive and no consensus reached. After a long discussion, no agreement even in Jesus' day, the same hold true today in CD. A certain attitude and mind-set could never be convinced, back then and so it is today. Some are to be left to themselves as Jesus did in his day.

    You're of course welcome to your judgments about those who reach different conclusions about the deity of Jesus than you do, CM. I just don't see how your judgments advance in any meaningful way our exchange on the Johannine text I raised in a previous post.

    @C_M_ posted:

    As for John 8: 24, 28, 58 (also, John 13:19), Jesus claimed the full qualities of the Godhead in language familiar from OT references to Yahweh. The "I am" statements throughout the Gospel should be considered:

    Human Self Identification -- John 4:26; 6:20

    Divine Self Identification -- John 6:35; John 8:12; 9: 5; John 10:7; John 10:11; John 11:25, 26; 14:6; John 15:1

    Absolute Use -- John 13:19; John 8: 24, 28, 58

    Within the OT "I am" functions as a name God. All for now,

    The text I raised in a previous post was John 7.16-18, not John 8.24,28,58. The question about the John 7 verses that I asked and which you did not engage was this: In your view, what do Jesus' comments in that passage (John 7.16-18) tell us about his view of the question of whether he is God? Isn't it true that in those comments Jesus draws a clear and inescapable distinction between himself and God? If not, what DOES he say in those verses about himself and God?


    As for the John 8 and verses in which the Greek text say "I am":

    • I think it significant that we encounter "I am" sayings only in John's Gospel. His is a more mature and stylized Christology than we find in the earlier accounts of the Synoptics. My guess is that the I am sayings are at least in part a reflection of the added years available to the development of John's Christology.
    • The "I am" verses cannot be read in isolation. They must be read in concert with the many other Johannine and synoptic verses that make what I think is a clear an inescapable distinction between Jesus and God. I've raised those verses in multiple previous posts, basically never to any substance response from those who dispute my Christology. For the moment, let's focus on the most recent verses you didn't engage, John 7.16-18, and for good measure throw in John 17.3 (emphasis added): "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." (And notice John 17.11,13 - Jesus says he is "coming" to the one he calls "Father." Jesus does NOT say he "coming back" to the one he calls "Father.)
    • And then there are the dozens of verses in the Synoptics that point to the distinction Jesus makes between himself and God.

    In my view, ALL of the verses have to be considered, not just the verses that we think defend our point of view.


    @C_M_ posted:

    Is Jesus alive today?

    Is Mary alive today?

    Is Jesus in heaven today?

    Is Mary in heaven today?

    Do people pray in Jesus name?

    Does the Bible teaches praying to Mary?

    Do people pray in Mary's name?

    Is Jesus the Messiah, our Redeemer?

    Is Mary the Messiah, our Redeemer

    Did Mary existed before Abraham?

    Is Joseph the biological father of Jesus?

    Mary is no Jesus! CM


    We've been down this road before, CM, via questions quite in keeping with these. I'm surprised that a discussion of John 7.16-18 led to questions about Mary's eternal destiny. However, in the order you asked them:

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    No.

    No.

    Yes.

    No.

    No.

    Yes.


    I agree that "Mary is no Jesus."

    • @Bill_Coley wrote: In Acts 2.25, Peters quotes from Psalm 16 in order to refer to God - to the one who "will not abandon my soul to Hades or let your Holy One see corruption" - NOT to Jesus, whom in Acts 2.23 Peter identifies as the one God raised (i.e. the one whose soul God did "not abandon to Hades").

    Psalm 16 quotation is explained in Acts 2:29-33 by Peter comparing David with Jesus. David's tomb remains in Jerusalem while the Christ is risen (human body of Holy One did not see corruption). Acts 2:36 declares Jesus to be Lord (יהוה) and the Christ. Remember Peter and Acts 2 God-fearing Jewish audience experienced synagogue usage for יהוה (Lord = κύριος = אָדוֹן = Adonai => יהוה) as the Tanakh (Old Testament) was read out loud every year.

    • @Bill_Coley wrote: In Acts 2.33-36, Peter quotes from Psalm 110 in order to refer to God and to the one God invites to sit at God's right hand. In Peter's mind, who is the one God invited to sit at God's right hand? Jesus. (Acts 2.33)

    Concur Peter believes Jesus is sitting at God's right hand. Remember Peter had many personal encounters with Jesus that included divine action: e.g. Peter walking on stormy seas was followed by Jesus saving Peter from drowning (when Peter's faith faltered). Divine action encounters provide reasonable basis for Peter to believe Jesus is Lord (יהוה) God.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: BOTTOM LINE: Neither of the texts to which you refer reports that Peter believes Jesus is God. Both in fact make a clear and inescapable distinction between God and Jesus, the one whose soul is not abandoned and who is invited to sit at God's right hand.

    From different beliefs we have about God prior to considering God's Word, can appreciate your BOTTOM LINE, which reflects belief desire being stronger than desire to seek truth in original context.

    If Jesus is not God, then why would God have Jesus sit at God's right hand ruling as God ?

    Isaiah 43:11 (ESV) "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.” that leaves no possibility for a savior who is not the LORD (God).

    Thankful for God answering my prayers to open my eyes so can behold wondrous things from God's law (per Psalm 119:18), which included opening my Bible recently for daily reading to Isaiah 43.

    • @Bill_Coley wrote: What Peter believed as to whether he himself deserved worship has no effect on the clear meaning of his words in Acts 2.22: Jesus was a "man" "through whom" God did mighty things. That makes Jesus the conduit of God's actions, NOT the source of God's actions.

    Remember Lazarus in John 11 ? After Jesus was informed about Lazarus being ill, Jesus said: “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”  John 11:4 (ESV) ... Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him, John 11:45 (ESV).

    After Dorcas is raised from the dead ("through" Peter's prayers and words following example of Jesus), Acts 9:42 records many believed in the Lord (יהוה).

    If Jesus is not God, then why believe in a conduit ?

    • @Bill_Coley wrote: Read beyond v.26 in Acts 10 - for example, the following passage from later in the chapter, but still in the same scene with Peter and Cornelius. (emphasis added)

    Acts 10:36 includes "Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)" that declares Jesus to be Lord (יהוה) God (per contemporary synagogue usage).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: The distinction Peter makes between Jesus and God could not be more clear. Jesus is the one God "anointed with the Holy Spirit," the one God "raised" and "made...to appear," and he is the one God "appointed" to be "judge of the living and the dead." Therefore, Jesus is not, and cannot be, God.

    Observation: "Therefore" conclusion would be true if we were discussing two humans, but misses the mark for one God, who has two intricately linked voices (each with free will that always choose to Love intensely).

    What is Jesus proclaiming in John 10:30 (ESV) "I and the Father are one." ? (one is emphasized from Greek word order)

    @Bill_Coley wrote: As for Revelation 19.10, I encourage you to revisit the verse: ... The angel describes himself as a "fellow servant" with John and his brothers, as one who "hold[s] to the testimony of Jesus." Peter described Jesus as the "man" "through whom God did "mighty works and wonders and signs." (Acts 2.22) The angel does NOT claim that God did "mighty works and wonders and signs" through him, which strongly suggests the angel is NOT the conduit of God's action that Jesus is.

    Revelation 19.9 records the angel being a conduit of God's words to John (to be written).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: It's worth noting that four of the first five verses you cite do NOT include the word "worship," at least not in the translations I consulted. In one instance - Matthew 8.2 - you seem to have found the one translation that deploys "worship" in its take on the verse, whereas nearly every other translation reports that the leper merely "knelt" before Jesus. The same is true with Matthew 15.25 and the NLT. MOST translations in MOST of the verses you cite report kneeling down, not "worship," a fact which leads to my other observation:

    The larger issue is the intention/conviction behind a person's offering of "worship." In the instances I just cited, "worship" is kneeling down, perhaps in gratitude or intense need. If that's the cause of the "worship," then it's not evidence of Jesus' being God. And such an explanation would explain Jesus' receiving worship "without refusal" - it was not worship of deity at all.

    Searching 295 English Bibles in my Logos library for (God,Lord,Jesus) worship found 22 translations that have worship in Matthew 8:2, including:

    AV 1873: And behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

     The Cambridge Paragraph Bible: Of the Authorized English Version (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1873), Mt 8:2.

    MEV: And then a leper came and worshipped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”

     Modern English Version, Thinline Edition. (Lake Mary, FL: Passio, 2014), Mt 8:2.

    TPT: Suddenly, a leper walked up to Jesus and threw himself down before him in worship and said, “Lord, you have the power to heal me … if you really want to.

     Brian Simmons, tran., The Passion Translation: New Testament (BroadStreet Publishing, 2017), Mt 8:2.

    For kneeling, remember Paul penning: Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 

     The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Php 2:9–11.

    Paul experienced contemporary synagogue usage for יהוה (Lord = κύριος = אָדוֹן = Adonai => יהוה) so on bended knee, every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord (יהוה) God.

    My Logos library has 23 English Bibles having worship in Matthew 15.25 that includes NLT.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Then there's Mark 10.17-18, where a man kneels before Jesus - very much in keeping with the "worship" cited in several of the verses you cite - and as an introduction to a question about eternal life calls Jesus "Good Teacher." Jesus responds, "Why do you call me good? ... Only God is truly good." (Mark 10.18, NLT) I read Jesus' response to the man as an explicit rejection of identification as God.

    Different interpretation is God's loving reply through Jesus for the man to recognize teacher, Jesus, is God, who is truly good.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: And in the New Testament portion of my devotional Bible reading this morning I read John 4, the story of Jesus and the woman at the well. Notice what he tells her about worship:

    21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”


    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jn 4:20–24). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

    What better occasion for Jesus to claim his divinity, that he is worthy of worship. But he doesn't make the claim. In fact, he claims instead that he is among those who "worship what [they] know." Jesus tells the woman that the one who is to be worshiped is God, the one Jesus calls "Father."

    Please keep reading: The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.” 

     The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jn 4:25–26.

    In a loving humble way, Jesus confirmed He deserves spiritual worship as Lord (יהוה) God.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: There is no indication in any of the verses you cited that Jesus accepted others' "worship" as a declaration that he (Jesus) was God.

    The Leper in Matthew 8.2, woman in Matthew 15.25, man born blind in John 9:38, and Thomas in John 20.28 all worshipped Jesus as Lord (יהוה) God. If Jesus is not God, then receiving worship (without refusal) as God is sin against God, which disqualifies Jesus from being savior.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: In my view, God can anoint anyone for any role God chooses.

    Thankful for 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 teaching Holy Spirit (God) chooses who should receive spiritual gift(s) to glorify God. Personally Thankful can say "Jesus is Lord" while smiling 😀

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Notice that in Acts 4.10 - two verses prior to the one you cite - Peter calls Jesus the "man" God raised. I don't know how the distinction between God and the one God raised could be clearer.

    Jesus taught in John 10:1-18 that Jesus has authority to sacrifice (lay down) His life and take it up again.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: I see no indication in John 14.6 of a claim of divinity from Jesus. He claims only to be "the way" to the one he calls "Father," which consistently, in my view, is the term Jesus uses to refer to God. In a sense, I think it's fair to describe this an another implementation of the image of Jesus as a conduit: Not only does God do mighty works through him, but people get to God through him.

    Humility of true love shows through Jesus for "The Way, The Truth, and The Life." that has implied divinity claim from God breathing life into Adam. Another implicit divinity claim is Truth. Explicit divinity claim is "I AM" (ἐγώ εἰμι) that echos Exodus 3:14, Leviticus 11:44-45, Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 43:11, ...

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Peter says nothing in his Acts sermons about multiple voices, above, below, or in between. He says simply and directly that God raised "the man" Jesus. (Acts 4.10) The inference could not be more clear: The one raised cannot be the one who does the raising. Jesus cannot be God.

    Concur Peter does not use "voices" in Acts 2 while mentioning three voices of One God by name (Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit) plus refers to Jesus as Lord, which meant (יהוה) God in contemporary synagogue usage. Old Testament has 6,358 occurrences of יהוה that were translated 6,040 times into Greek LXX as κύριος (Lord) with the other 318 occurrences were translated as θεός (God).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: The fuller context of Romans 5 makes clear Paul's distinction between God and Jesus:

    Thankful for Holy Spirit opening my Bible to 2 Corinthians 4 yesterday, which includes: In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

     The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), 2 Co 4:4–6.

    The father of lies (god of this world) has an ongoing, intense goal to disrupt love relationship between every human and God. One form of spiritual blindness (disruption) is viewing "through" as a way to preclude recognizing Jesus is Lord (יהוה) God.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: In 1 Corinthians 15.57, Paul returns to what God does "through" the second Adam known as Jesus: Through him we receive "victory over sin and death." Again, NO mention in the verse that the one through whom God gives us victory is actually God.

    Remember Paul experienced contemporary synagogue usage so 1 Corinthians 15:57 has victory through our Lord (יהוה) Jesus Christ. Another form of spiritual blindness is ignoring contemporary scripture usage so do not appreciate Truth in original context.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Hebrews 3.1-2 calls Jesus "the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him." NO mention in the verse that the one God appointed was actually God. NO mention in the verse that the apostle and high priest was actually God. Jesus can be worthy of more glory than Moses without being God.

    Remember Hebrews 3:6 but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope. 

     The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Heb 3:6.

    How is Christ (Jesus) faithful as a son over God's house ? especially in contrast to Moses being a servant in Hebrews 3:5 that implies different kinds of fathers for Moses (human) and Jesus (God).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Your first sentence here is a repeat of the passive aggressive put down you offered to me earlier in this thread. I didn't think it was appropriate then; I still don't.

     Jeremiah 17:9-10 (deceptiveness of human heart) includes me since am aware my heart is a target for our spiritual adversary, the father of lies. My testimony includes 20 years of drug addiction after asking Jesus to be my Lord so have experienced coming down from a drug high with the shame of being a believer who knows drug choice is wrong, yet later chooses drug again instead of loving relationship with God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. About 15 years into my addiction, my deceptive heart attitudes and actions gave a Holy Righteous God reason to blot my name out of His book of life (I deserved to go to hell). Thankful for God answering prayers of others so I had to decide what to do with 1 John 1:9 for confession ("same speak") of my sin and trusting God, which included me forgiving myself. Now have no desire for anyone to choose hell for their eternal destination.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: You cite the example of Isaiah 7.14/Matthew 1.23, but you offer no substantive engagement with the textual argument I offered. From the Isaiah text, please show me that the analysis of it I presented in a previous is incorrect.

    Noted several sentences of my prophecy engagement had no reply so evidently were not considered substantive: "A prophet of God is truly a conduit for יהוה God's words. 2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95) But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

    Noted no response to "Humanly suspect prophet Zechariah did not know ~2,000 years were between verses 9 and 10 in Zechariah chapter 9."

    Daniel 12 includes: I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

     The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Da 12:8–10.

    Daniel heard God's prophecy, but did not understand, which is consistent with truly being a conduit of God's Word.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Isaiah's 7.14's fulfillment not until the birth of Jesus would be a shock to the prophet. As I pointed out in my previous post, Isaiah projects that before the child "knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good," the land of the two nations King Ahaz fears (Israel and Syria)will be "deserted." (Isaiah 7.16) CLEARLY, Isaiah does NOT mean Ahaz will have to wait 700 years for the threat of those nations to be neutralized. I think it's clear the prophet believes the child of the sign he offers to Ahaz already has been born, or soon will be born.

    If I'm correct - and please show my error from the prophet's text, if you believe I'm not right - then in your view, does that mean the prophet was wrong about the time frame of the child he predicted?

    Humanly expect Isaiah repeated Immanuel prophecy from God while not understand timing of name fulfillment so "shock to the prophet" is not applicable. Bible records Immanuel prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 with fulfillment in Matthew 1:23 of Immanuel for Jesus being God with us. Bible does not document another Immanuel fulfillment.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: Possibly a child "knows how" fulfillment of Isaiah 7:16 is Maher-shalal-hash-baz (The spoil comes quickly, the prey hurries.) in Isaiah 8:3-4 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; for before the boy knows how to cry out ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.”

    @Bill_Coley wrote: More common ground. I think the prophet and his companions would tell us the prophecy came to fulfillment LONG before Jesus. I think Matthew would tell us that in Jesus he saw a new kind of fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy, one the prophet had no intention to make.

    Prophets are truly conduits for God's Words so they do not have their own intentions in prophetic statements. Prophecy intention and interpretation belong to God, which has included significant time gaps between adjacent words: e.g. Isaiah 7:14-16, Zechariah 9:9-10

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    [NOTE: Our posts/responses to each other are reaching impractical lengths!]


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Psalm 16 quotation is explained in Acts 2:29-33 by Peter comparing David with Jesus. David's tomb remains in Jerusalem while the Christ is risen (human body of Holy One did not see corruption). Acts 2:36 declares Jesus to be Lord (יהוה) and the Christ. Remember Peter and Acts 2 God-fearing Jewish audience experienced synagogue usage for יהוה (Lord = κύριος = אָדוֹן = Adonai => יהוה) as the Tanakh (Old Testament) was read out loud every year.

    In my view, the distinction between Jesus and God in Acts 2-29-33 is clear. Peter describes Jesus as the "descendant" of David (Acts 2.30) whom God "raised up" (Acts 2.32) and "exalted" to God's right hand (Acts 2.33) one who "received" the Holy Spirit from the Father. That's a human being (David's descendant) whom God raised, exalted, and blessed. In my view, that's NOT a description of God.

    In Acts 2.36, Peter says God MADE Jesus "Lord." If, as you propose, "Lord" in that verse means God, then Peter's word is that God made Jesus God. I don't see how that's theologically possible.


    Concur Peter believes Jesus is sitting at God's right hand. Remember Peter had many personal encounters with Jesus that included divine action: e.g. Peter walking on stormy seas was followed by Jesus saving Peter from drowning (when Peter's faith faltered). Divine action encounters provide reasonable basis for Peter to believe Jesus is Lord (יהוה) God.

    What you as a modern-day follower of Jesus believe is a "reasonable basis" for Peter to believe Jesus is God deserves attention and respect, but it does not change the fact that Peter does NOT express a belief that Jesus is God. In fact, as I have shown in multiple posts, his words are most reasonably interpreted as a declaration that Jesus is NOT God.


    From different beliefs we have about God prior to considering God's Word, can appreciate your BOTTOM LINE, which reflects belief desire being stronger than desire to seek truth in original context.

    No. My "BOTTOM LINE" reflects the outcome of my encounter with biblical texts, both in their original contexts (the passages of which they're a part) and the wider biblical context (the broader NT and OT witness).


    If Jesus is not God, then why would God have Jesus sit at God's right hand ruling as God ?

    In my view, Jesus' place at God's right hand is the result of God's exalting Jesus. See Philippians 2.5-11.


    Isaiah 43:11 (ESV) "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.” that leaves no possibility for a savior who is not the LORD (God).

    God IS the only savior, the one who "made" Jesus Lord and Christ - that is, God used Jesus as the conduit for God's saving grace. Paul makes this clear in Romans 3.21-26... (NLT; emphasis added)

    21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.  23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. 


    Remember Lazarus in John 11 ? After Jesus was informed about Lazarus being ill, Jesus said: “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”  John 11:4 (ESV) ... Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he didbelieved in him, John 11:45 (ESV).


    After Dorcas is raised from the dead ("through" Peter's prayers and words following example of Jesus), Acts 9:42 records many believed in the Lord (יהוה).

    John 11.45 does NOT say people believed Jesus was God; it says people believed in Jesus - likely believed in his identity as a conduit for God's power. The same dynamic arises in Acts 9 with Peter's raising of Dorcas. Note your own take on Peter's act: You claim Peter followed "the example of Jesus." I agree. In raising Dorcas Peter too was a conduit for God's raising power.


    If Jesus is not God, then why believe in a conduit ?

    God works "through" people throughout the Bible. For example, Abram (Genesis 12.3) and Solomon (1 Kings 6.12).


    Acts 10:36 includes "Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)" that declares Jesus to be Lord (יהוה) God (per contemporary synagogue usage).

    There is no indication in Acts 10 or anywhere else that Peter believes Jesus is God. Instead, there is every indication that Peter believes God works through Jesus. Therefore, when Peter calls Jesus "Lord" he must mean something other than God. That's the most reasonable conclusion to be drawn, in my view, when Peter says God made Jesus "Lord and Christ." (Acts 2.36)


    Observation: "Therefore" conclusion would be true if we were discussing two humans, but misses the mark for one God, who has two intricately linked voices (each with free will that always choose to Love intensely).

    In my view, your conception of free willed, "intricately linked voices" is rhetorically captivating but without biblical foundation. I respect the creative word choice, but see no biblical warrant for your assertion that God has multiple, free-willed voices.


    What is Jesus proclaiming in John 10:30 (ESV) "I and the Father are one." ?

    Jesus is saying that his will is aligned completely, perfectly, with God's.


    For kneeling, remember Paul penning: Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 

    Note the distinction between God and Jesus in that verse: The confession of Jesus as Lord produces glory to God.


    Paul experienced contemporary synagogue usage for יהוה (Lord = κύριος = אָדוֹן = Adonai => יהוה) so on bended knee, every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord (יהוה) God.

    What Paul experienced in synagogue cannot replace the clear meaning of the words he wrote to the Philippians, the Romans, and others.


    Different interpretation is God's loving reply through Jesus for the man to recognize teacher, Jesus, is God, who is truly good.

    You offer a "different" interpretation of Luke 18.19, but in my view, not the interpretation that is most reasonable in its particular context or the broader Gospel context, in which Jesus almost universally makes a clear distinction between himself and God.


    Please keep reading: The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.” 

    Yes. Jesus tells the woman that he is the Messiah. He does NOT tell her that he is God. In John 4.34 (NLT) Jesus makes that very distinction: (emphasis added)

    34 Then Jesus explained: “My nourishment comes from doing the will of God, who sent me, and from finishing his work.


    The Leper in Matthew 8.2, woman in Matthew 15.25, man born blind in John 9:38, and Thomas in John 20.28 all worshipped Jesus as Lord (יהוה) God. If Jesus is not God, then receiving worship (without refusal) as God is sin against God, which disqualifies Jesus from being savior.

    There is no indication in either of the Matthew passages or the John 9 passage that the "worship" offered is of Jesus as God. As is evident from an examination of the words and settings of those and other passages in various translations, the most reasonable interpretation of the word "worship" is as an act kneeling in respect and gratitude. I acknowledge the challenge of John 20.28, a verse which I have dealt with in other posts, but don't have time for now.


    Humility of true love shows through Jesus for "The Way, The Truth, and The Life." that has implied divinity claim from God breathing life into Adam. Another implicit divinity claim is Truth. Explicit divinity claim is "I AM" (ἐγώ εἰμι) that echos Exodus 3:14Leviticus 11:44-45Deuteronomy 32:39Isaiah 43:11, ...

    I see no biblical warrant for what you refer to as "implied" and "implicit" assertions of Jesus' divinity, principally because the Gospels are filled with direct and explicit assertions of a clear distinction between Jesus and God, most coming from the mouth of Jesus himself. If the choice is between the direct and explicit and the implied and implicit, I will choose the direct and explicit. In addition, from the lack of biblical support you offer for your analysis in this regard, I propose that what you demonstrate are your own inferences, not Jesus' implications.


    Concur Peter does not use "voices" in Acts 2 while mentioning three voices of One God by name (Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit) plus refers to Jesus as Lord, which meant (יהוה) God in contemporary synagogue usage. Old Testament has 6,358 occurrences of יהוה that were translated 6,040 times into Greek LXX as κύριος (Lord) with the other 318 occurrences were translated as θεός (God).

    My point was and remains that references to "voices" - which we apparently agree Peter does not make - do not and cannot overcome the simple fact that Peter calls Jesus the "man" whom God raised. To my reading of your posts in our exchange, you have yet to respond directly to that fact.


    Thankful for Holy Spirit opening my Bible to 2 Corinthians 4 yesterday, which includes: In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shineout of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

    My point in response to which you provided these comments was that the full context of Romans 5 makes clear Paul's distinction between Jesus and God. Do you have any response to the substance of my summary of Paul's Christology as presented in Romans 5?

    As for 2 Corinthians 4, note that Paul says Jesus is the "exact likeness" (NLT) or "image" of God (ESV); (2 Cor 4.4) Paul does NOT say Jesus IS God.

    For comparison, note that in Genesis 1, God creates humanity in God's "image," and that in Ephesians 4.24 (ESV), the writer commands his readers to put on "the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." Conclusion? Jesus' being the "exact likeness" or the "image" of God does NOT mean that Jesus is God. Rather, it means Jesus better, more completely reflects God than any of other human - particularly as the resurrected and glorified Christ.


    The father of lies (god of this world) has an ongoing, intense goal to disrupt love relationship between every human and God. One form of spiritual blindness (disruption) is viewing "through" as a way to preclude recognizing Jesus is Lord (יהוה) God.

    You're welcome to the judgments of your choice regarding what you believe is my spiritual blindness evidenced by my take on the meaning of the word "through." In my view, however, such judgments are inappropriate in forums among whose guiding principles is that posters will "criticize ideas, not people." Hence, I have no comments to offer about your spiritual vision as evidenced in your take on the meaning of the word "through."


    Remember Paul experienced contemporary synagogue usage so 1 Corinthians 15:57 has victory through our Lord (יהוה) Jesus Christ. Another form of spiritual blindness is ignoring contemporary scripture usage so do not appreciate Truth in original context.

    There is no indication in Paul's NT writings that "contemporary synagogue usage" should affect our take on the the clear meaning of his frequently repeated view of a clear distinction between Jesus and God.

    And again you comment on my spiritual vision. For the reasons I just stated, I will not offer comments about yours.


    Remember Hebrews 3:6 but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope. 

    How is Christ (Jesus) faithful as a son over God's house ? especially in contrast to Moses being a servant in Hebrews 3:5 that implies different kinds of fathers for Moses (human) and Jesus (God).

    Hebrews 3.1-4 describes Jesus as one God "appointed," (Heb 3.2) one who deserves more glory than Moses. (Heb 3.3). The chapter does NOT describe Jesus as God. What about the "son"? That is Jesus' role - he is God's appointed/anointed son. (Matthew 17.5)


     Jeremiah 17:9-10 (deceptiveness of human heart) includes me since am aware my heart is a target for our spiritual adversary, the father of lies. My testimony includes 20 years of drug addiction after asking Jesus to be my Lord so have experienced coming down from a drug high with the shame of being a believer who knows drug choice is wrong, yet later chooses drug again instead of loving relationship with God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. About 15 years into my addiction, my deceptive heart attitudes and actions gave a Holy Righteous God reason to blot my name out of His book of life (I deserved to go to hell). Thankful for God answering prayers of others so I had to decide what to do with 1 John 1:9 for confession ("same speak") of my sin and trusting God, which included me forgiving myself. Now have no desire for anyone to choose hell for their eternal destination.

    Thank you for sharing part of your personal journey. I honor the candor of your witness, a fact that does not, however, overrule my objection to your commentaries about me and my journey. Those commentaries are inappropriate in these forums. Dispute my ideas all you like; leave my spiritual vision and standing out of our exchange.


    Noted several sentences of my prophecy engagement had no reply so evidently were not considered substantive: "A prophet of God is truly a conduit for יהוה God's words. 2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95) But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

    The question I asked was whether the prophet Isaiah was wrong when he predicted to King Ahaz the birth of the child as a recent or soon-arriving event. In my view, given the clarity of the historical context of the prophet's word to the king, the 2 Peter 1 text is not germane.


    Noted no response to "Humanly suspect prophet Zechariah did not know ~2,000 years were between verses 9 and 10 in Zechariah chapter 9."

    In my view, the text gives us no reason to believe the prophet thought there would any such time period before the fulfillment of his prophecy.


    Daniel heard God's prophecy, but did not understand, which is consistent with truly being a conduit of God's Word.

    Are you suggesting that in Isaiah's prophecy to Ahaz there is reason to believe Isaiah didn't understand the meaning of his prophecy of the deserted lands of the two nations Ahaz feared? If so, where do you find that reason?


    Humanly expect Isaiah repeated Immanuel prophecy from God while not understand timing of name fulfillment so "shock to the prophet" is not applicable. Bible records Immanuel prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 with fulfillment in Matthew 1:23 of Immanuel for Jesus being God with us. Bible does not document another Immanuel fulfillment.

    Thanks for your response, but I still don't know the answer to my question. Was the prophet wrong when he predicted to King Ahaz that before the child whose birth he foresaw knew how to choose right from wrong, the lands of the two nations he feared, Israel and Syria, would be deserted? As your formulate your response, recall that in Isaiah 7.7-8, the prophet says the invasion from the two countries will not happen, and that Israel will be destroyed within 65 years of his prophetic word. Was the prophet wrong when he predicted Israel's destruction - by which time the child will know right from wrong - within 65 years?


    Prophets are truly conduits for God's Words so they do not have their own intentions in prophetic statements. Prophecy intention and interpretation belong to God, which has included significant time gaps between adjacent words: e.g. Isaiah 7:14-16Zechariah 9:9-10

    I take your point about God's intentions in prophetic statements. In the case of the Isaiah 7 prophecy, however, its historical setting almost requires a conclusion that the prophet was wrong if Jesus was the only fulfillment of his prophecy God had in mind.

  • @Bill_Coley wrote: [NOTE: Our posts/responses to each other are reaching impractical lengths!]

    Concur so my response will be shorter plus return focus to primary 'Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?' idea proposition: "If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is sin (Ex 20:5 , Dt 5:9), which disqualifies Jesus from being savior for anyone."

    @Bill_Coley wrote:  In my view, however, such judgments are inappropriate in forums among whose guiding principles is that posters will "criticize ideas, not people."

    Concur with guidance to lovingly criticize ideas, not people. Observation from a number of our replies is recognizing ideas, beliefs, and spiritual vision are intricately intertwined so focusing solely on ideas is challenging. New Testament cultural context is providing learning opportunity for me.

    Searching scripture for "Did Jesus receive worship as God ?" is a prudent way to investigate primary thread proposition.

    Logos Bible Software search for verses having (worship OR knelt) AND Lord has many results. My search in a Bible collection (enabled for New Testament interlinear text comparison) found 11 Bibles out of 12 included Mt 8.2, Mt 15.25, and Jn 9.38 in results. To include NASB95, would need to expand Bible search (worship OR knelt OR bow) AND Lord since NASB95 uses bow & bowed (instead of worship/knelt).

    Contemporary synagogue usage included thousands of times every year for יהוה (God's Most Holy Name) spoken out loud as Lord (Lord = κύριος = אָדוֹן = Adonai => יהוה) during scripture reading in Judea (Tanakh, LXX) and Samaria (Pentateuch). All Israel experienced synagogue scripture speaking of Lord for יהוה (God's Most Holy Name). Jewish cultural desire to avoid accidentally saying יהוה in vain resulted in Lord substitute during scripture reading.

    Mt 8.2 (NLT) Suddenly, a man with leprosy approached him and knelt before him. “Lord,” the man said, “if you are willing, you can heal me and make me clean.” 

    Mt 15.25 (NLT) But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!” 

    Jn 9.38 (NLT) “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 

    @Bill_Coley wrote: There is no indication in either of the Matthew passages or the John 9 passage that the "worship" offered is of Jesus as God.

    Strongly disagree since scripture text shows Jesus was worshipped as Lord that is consistent with contemporary synagogue speaking of (יהוה) God's Most Holy Name during scripture reading. Contextual verses shows Jesus did not rebuke Lord (יהוה) God worship spoken directly to Jesus. Hence, three people worshipped Jesus as Lord (יהוה) God that is enough to establish matter per Dt 19.15 Note: leper in Matthew 8:1-4 and man born blind in John 9 are Jewish. Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:21-28 uses Jewish Messianic greeting to Jesus.

    Back to original 'Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?' idea proposition: if Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is sin against God, which would make Jesus a sinner and disqualify Jesus from being a savior from sin against God for anyone (actually Jesus would need a savior). Corollary idea proposition is if Jesus is the human son of Joseph (not God), then Jesus inherited sin from Adam so Jesus would need a savior.

    If Jesus is God, then the man Jesus receiving worship for Lord (יהוה) God reflects Jesus knowing who He was, is, and is to come.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Concur with guidance to lovingly criticize ideas, not people. Observation from a number of our replies is recognizing ideas, beliefs, and spiritual vision are intricately intertwined so focusing solely on ideas is challenging. New Testament cultural context is providing learning opportunity for me.

    I disagree with your conclusion that it's challenging to focus solely on ideas. All that's needed is a will to do so, and the proper word choice.

    If I don't refer to your spiritual vision - to the question of whether you're "blind" - then I am in no danger of commenting on your spiritual vision. If I refer only to the ideas, analysis, exegesis, observations, and conclusions you include in your posts, and then in my reply respond ONLY to those ideas, analysis, exegesis, observations, and conclusions, WITHOUT extrapolating from your points of view into commentaries about you, your faith, or your spiritual vision, then I am at no risk of violating the "criticize ideas, not people" directive.

    Bottom line: In my view, we simply have to decide to constrain the scope of our comments to posters' ideas. It's a matter of choice, not challenge.


    Logos Bible Software search for verses having (worship OR knelt) AND Lord has many results. My search in a Bible collection (enabled for New Testament interlinear text comparison) found 11 Bibles out of 12 included Mt 8.2, Mt 15.25, and Jn 9.38 in results. To include NASB95, would need to expand Bible search (worship OR knelt OR bow) AND Lord since NASB95 uses bow & bowed (instead of worship/knelt).

    Your search criteria and results coordinate to make my point: In most cases, the "worship" offered to Jesus in the Gospels is in the form of kneeling, not divine adoration. There is no sense in most of applicable instances that people kneel because they think Jesus is God. They kneel because they have a need or are grateful for what Jesus has done for them. In my view, that's not "worship" of God.


    Strongly disagree since scripture text shows Jesus was worshipped as Lord that is consistent with contemporary synagogue speaking of (יהוה) God'sMost Holy Name during scripture reading. Contextual verses shows Jesus did not rebuke Lord (יהוה)God worship spoken directly to Jesus. Hence, three people worshipped Jesus as Lord (יהוה) God that is enough to establish matter per Dt 19.15 Note: leper in Matthew 8:1-4 and man born blind in John 9 are Jewish. Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:21-28 uses Jewish Messianic greeting to Jesus.

    We read the verses differently. I see no indication in the cited verses that people worship Jesus as God. They "worship" (kneel) in need and out of desperation (the leper and the Syrophoenician woman) or gratitude (the man born blind).


    Back to original 'Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?' idea proposition: if Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is sin against God, which would make Jesus a sinner and disqualify Jesus from being a savior from sin against God for anyone (actually Jesus would need a savior). Corollary idea proposition is if Jesus is the human son of Joseph (not God), then Jesus inherited sin from Adam so Jesus would need a savior.

    If Jesus is God, then the man Jesus receiving worship for Lord (יהוה) God reflects Jesus knowing who He was, is, and is to come.

    As I pointed out earlier in our exchange, Jesus seems clearly to dispute any identification of himself as God in Luke 18.19, when in response to the adjective "good" he questions why the man would call him good when only God is good. I find no textual basis for the alternative interpretation of that response which you offered at the time I raised it.

    In my view, Jesus does not receive worship as God, first and foremost because he does not believe himself to be God, but also because those offering the "worship" in the vast majority of instances offer no indication that they are responding to deity; rather, they are responding to need or gratitude.


    Your shortened post does not include responses to several of what I consider to be important points. I understand the reasons for your post reduction, but ask for a direct response to the question I've asked you several times in various forms: When Isaiah predicted that Israel - one of the two nations plotting against Judah at the time - would be destroyed before the child whose birth he proclaimed to King Ahaz in Isaiah 7.14 would know the difference between right and wrong, AND that said destruction of Israel would happen within 65 years of his prophetic word, (Isaiah 7.8) was the prophet right? Did that specific prophecy come true within 65 years of his prophetic word to Ahaz?


    Aside from seeking that response from you, I think it's fair to say that we see these issues differently. I am convinced as a matter of faith that Jesus is not and does not see himself as God. You are convinced as a matter of faith that Jesus is and does see himself as God. So be it. The Body of Christ remains as strong. vibrant, and essential as ever despite our disagreement, Glory to God!

  • Logos Bible Software search (worship OR knelt OR bow) AND Lord in a Bible Collection includes teaching by Jesus about worship of God (during rebuke of satan's attempt to have Jesus worship satan): (emphasis from Greek word order)

    Mt 4.10 (NLT) “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” 

    Lk 4.8 (NLT) Jesus replied, “The Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

    Jesus had experienced contemporary synagogue usage of Lord (Lord = κύριος = אָדוֹן = Adonai => יהוה) for יהוה (God's Most Holy Name) during scripture readings. Since Jesus knew "I and the Father are One" (Jn 10.30) includes One name יהוה the rebuke to satan implies satan must worship Jesus, who is One in God.

    John chapter 9:35-41 (NLT) ends with a Spiritual Blindness pericope:

    When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 

    The man answered, “Who is he, sir? I want to believe in him.” 

    “You have seen him,” Jesus said, “and he is speaking to you!” 

    “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 

    Then Jesus told him, “I entered this world to render judgment—to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind.” 

    Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, “Are you saying we’re blind?” 

    “If you were blind, you wouldn’t be guilty,” Jesus replied. “But you remain guilty because you claim you can see. 

    The man born blind both believed in Jesus as Lord (יהוה) God and worshipped Him. Jesus had asked the man using diety term "Son of Man" plus refers to Himself in a humble loving way. All 12 Bibles in my Logos comparison collection have worship in John 9:38 (none of them have kneel nor bow) so not know how worship was expressed to Jesus. Greek verb is προσκυνέω (proskyneō), worship in John 9:38 (aorist indicative means really happened without providing verbal hint of time duration).


    The Rich Man pericope in Luke 18:18-30 showed the rich man loved stuff more than God so was not willing to part with stuff to follow Jesus. Hence, Jesus rebuke of "good teacher" showed loving insight into rich man's heart, which did not recognize Jesus as (יהוה) God. Rich man had experienced Lord usage for (יהוה) God many times in synagogue, but used a different term, teacher, to address Jesus.


    Mt 1.11 (NLT) Josiah was the father of Jehoiachin and his brothers (born at the time of the exile to Babylon).

    Genealogy of Joseph in Matthew 1.11 leaves out Jehoiakim (son of Josiah & father of Jehoiachin). After King Jehoiakim burned a scroll, Jeremiah 36.30 (NLT) Now this is what the Lord says about King Jehoiakim of Judah: He will have no heirs to sit on the throne of David.

    A human son of Joseph (husband of Mary) sitting on the throne of David would violate God's pronouncement against King Jehoiakim.


    Immanuel prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 has more than one fulfillment recorded in scripture: Isaiah 8:8, 10 (generally for Judah) & Matthew 1:23 (specifically for Jesus)

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    Mt 4.10 (NLT) “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” 

    Lk 4.8 (NLT) Jesus replied, “The Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

    Once again the Scriptures you cite make my point.

    Notice the context of this word from Jesus: In Matthew 4.9 (cf LK 4.7) the devil offers Jesus the kingdoms of the earth if he will worship him (the devil). In response to that offer Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6.13.

    In effect, then, the devil says, "Worship me!" and in response Jesus says, "Scripture tells me to worship only God, and that's what I will do."

    Your texts offer another clear, inescapable distinction that Jesus made between himself and God: Jesus sees himself as the worshiper, and God as the one to be worshiped.


    The man born blind both believed in Jesus as Lord (יהוה) God and worshipped Him. Jesus had asked the man using diety term "Son of Man" plus refers to Himself in a humble loving way. All 12 Bibles in my Logos comparison collection have worship in John 9:38 (none of them have kneel nor bow) so not know how worship was expressed to Jesus. Greek verb is προσκυνέω (proskyneō), worship in John 9:38(aorist indicative means really happened without providing verbal hint of time duration).

    I see little textual support for the proposition that Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" to refer to himself as God. He uses the term to describe his human self, and an apocalyptic figure, but I can't find support for the view that by calling himself that he means to call himself God.


    Immanuel prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 has more than one fulfillment recorded in scripture: Isaiah 8:810 (generally for Judah) & Matthew 1:23(specifically for Jesus)

    As I noted earlier in our exchange: 1) I don't think the prophet Isaiah countenanced a fulfillment of his prophecy to Ahaz as something that would occur 700 years later; 2) I believe Matthew found a new fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy in the birth of Jesus.


    In my daily Bible reading, the Gospels part of which currently has me in John, I continue to find support for my view that Jesus is not God. Thursday's reading, for example, included John 16.25-32. In John 16.31, Jesus asks the disciples, "Do you now believe?" What was it that they had just claimed to believe? That Jesus "came from God." (John 16.30) NOT that Jesus WAS God, but that Jesus had come from God, a claim Jesus makes of himself on John 16.27-28. One who COMES FROM God can't BE God, just as one SENT BY God can't BE God.

  • In John chapter 9, the man born blind both believed in Jesus as Lord (יהוה) God and worshipped Him. All 12 Bibles in my Logos comparison collection have worship in John 9:38 (none of them have kneel nor bow) so not know how worship was expressed to Jesus. Greek verb is προσκυνέω (proskyneō), worship in John 9:38 (aorist indicative means really happened without providing verbal hint of time duration).

    If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is sin against God, which would make Jesus a sinner and disqualify Jesus from being a savior from sin against God for anyone (actually Jesus would need a savior).


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:  Mt 1.11 (NLT) Josiah was the father of Jehoiachin and his brothers (born at the time of the exile to Babylon).

    Genealogy of Joseph in Matthew 1.11 leaves out Jehoiakim (son of Josiah & father of Jehoiachin). After King Jehoiakim burned a scroll, Jeremiah 36.30 (NLT) Now this is what the Lord says about King Jehoiakim of Judah: He will have no heirs to sit on the throne of David.

    A human son of Joseph (husband of Mary) sitting on the throne of David would violate God's pronouncement against King Jehoiakim.

    Expanding corollary idea for this discussion: if Jesus is the human son of Joseph (not God), then Jesus inherited sin from Adam so Jesus would need a savior. Also if Joseph is the human father of Jesus, then Jeremiah would not be a prophet speaking God's word (since prophetic announcement in Jeremiah 36.30 lacks truth).


    @Bill_Coley wrote: 2) I believe Matthew found a new fulfillment of the Isaianic prophecy in the birth of Jesus.

    What is Matthew expressing about Jesus by new fulfillment of Immanuel, "God with us" ? (from my faith perspective, Matthew expresses Jesus is God with Us in human flesh)


    @Bill_Coley wrote: One who COMES FROM God can't BE God, just as one SENT BY God can't BE God.

    Please provide scripture support for this concept (appears to be a variant way to express your faith). Observation: humanly doubt truthfulness of this concept. If a family has a council that reaches a decision to send a person, the person sent could be a family member who participated in the family decision to be sent. Hence, the one sent from the family is part of the family. From my faith perspective, One God is a commUnity of three Loving voices (who intimately & intensely share One essence) so a family decision (made before creation) allowed one voice to be sent from God. Gospel of John includes The Word being eternally God in quality, who always exists, and choose to leave Heaven (above) to inhabit a human body.


    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    In John chapter 9, the man born blind both believed in Jesus as Lord (יהוה) God and worshipped Him. All 12 Bibles in my Logos comparison collection have worship in John 9:38 (none of them have kneel nor bow) so not know how worship was expressed to Jesus. Greek verb is προσκυνέω (proskyneō), worship in John 9:38 (aorist indicative means really happened without providing verbal hint of time duration).

    Nowhere in John 9 does the man born blind claim to worship Jesus as God. As I explained in a previous post, Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" in multiple ways to refer to himself, most often as a human being, and on occasion, as an apocalyptic figure. None of his uses of the term, in my view, reports a belief that he sees himself as God.

    It's worth a moment to look at John 9 more broadly. The chapter begins with the disciples' asking Jesus about the cause of the man's blindness. To introduce the question, they refer to Jesus as "rabbi." (John 9.2) John himself tells us that "rabbi" means teacher. (John 1.38) In our exchange, you have repeatedly referred to the "contemporary synagogue usage" of terms. What was the "contemporary synagogue usage" of the term "rabbi"? I propose it referred to a human teacher, not a divine one.

    Then in John 9.3-4, Jesus makes two points critical to our understanding of his self-identification:

    1. Due to the man's blindness, what Jesus calls "the works of God" will be "displayed in him." (John 9.3)
    2. Jesus says he and his disciples ("we") must "work" those works of God; he identifies God as "him who sent [him]."

    So Jesus says he and his disciples must work the works of the God who sent him. Jesus does NOT say he must work God's works alone, or that they must work Jesus' own works, either of which would have offered a bit of rhetorical shelter to the possibility that Jesus considered himself to be God. As the verse reads, however, the clear meaning of his words - which make NO reference or suggestion that he considers himself to be God - is that he is doing the work of the God who sent him. (see John 5.19, where Jesus says he can do "nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing," and John 5.30, where Jesus repeats the contention that he can do nothing on his own, and defends the justness of his judgment on that grounds that he doesn't "seek" his own will, but rather the will of "him who sent [him]." If he saw himself as God, how could his will have been anything other than God's will? Recall his Gethsemane surrender of will in which he prayed "not my will, but your will be done") I respect your interpretations to the contrary, but in my view, the meaning of these verses could not be more clear: Jesus does NOT understand himself to be God.


    If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is sin against God, which would make Jesus a sinner and disqualify Jesus from being a savior from sin against God for anyone (actually Jesus would need a savior).

    In my view, you have not demonstrated that Jesus received "worship for God," which means there is no sin against God.

    Did Jesus need a savior? Interesting question. I think the textual record is that he believed he had one. (Lk 23.46)

    Did Jesus inherit sin? As much as any human being. Did he submit to the sin within himself the way other humans do? No.


    What is Matthew expressing about Jesus by new fulfillment of Immanuel, "God with us" ? (from my faith perspective, Matthew expresses Jesus is God with Us in human flesh)

    Recall that in the original fulfillment of the Isianic prophecy, the child born ALSO was to be named "Immanuel," a name that meant "God with us." Do you also claim THAT child was God? I see no reason to believe the prophet wanted us to think so. I believe Isaiah wants his readers to know that the child's birth is a sign of God's continuing presence with them. Jesus, too, is a sign of God's continuing presence with God's people. The name "immanuel" in that context does NOT mean God was born in Bethlehem.



    Please provide scripture support for this concept (appears to be a variant way to express your faith). Observation: humanly doubt truthfulness of this concept. If a family has a council that reaches a decision to send a person, the person sent could be a family member who participated in the family decision to be sent. Hence, the one sent from the family is part of the family. From my faith perspective, One God is a commUnity of three Loving voices (who intimately & intensely share One essence) so a family decision (made before creation) allowed one voice to be sent from God. Gospel of John includes The Word being eternally God in quality, who always exists, and choose to leave Heaven (above) to inhabit a human body.

    The texts I've quoted speak for themselves. Consider Jesus' word found in John 5.19,30, which I cited earlier in this post. Jesus says he can do nothing without the Father who sent him. That MUST mean he does not believe he is the one who sent him. My point is simple interpretation of Bible verse word choice, supported by rudimentary logic.

    Your analogy appears strong on first reading, but in my view loses power upon notice that what you propose is not specifically analogous to the argument I make. I claim the one entity Jesus is not the same as the one entity (God) who sent him. Your analogy contends that the one entity Jesus can be part of some larger entity (a family). But such is NOT the content or meaning of Jesus' words about himself and the one who sent him. He says he (a single entity) is not the one (single entity) who sent him.

    What about Jesus as "Son"? I see no indication that Jesus believes that as "Son" he is deity. The textual support for such a claim is just not there.



    And I feel compelled to note that you did not respond to what I think is powerful support for my claim about Jesus and God. It was the following analysis of the "worship" reference in the temptation scene which you had raised, analysis I offered in my previous post:

    Notice the context of this word from Jesus: In Matthew 4.9 (cf LK 4.7) the devil offers Jesus the kingdoms of the earth if he will worship him (the devil). In response to that offer Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6.13.

    In effect, then, the devil says, "Worship me!" and in response Jesus says, "Scripture tells me to worship only God, and that's what I will do."

    Your texts offer another clear, inescapable distinction that Jesus made between himself and God: Jesus sees himself as the worshiper, and God as the one to be worshiped.

    I hope you'll address those issues directly in your next post.

  • @Bill_Coley wrote: Nowhere in John 9 does the man born blind claim to worship Jesus as God. As I explained in a previous post, Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" in multiple ways to refer to himself, most often as a human being, and on occasion, as an apocalyptic figure. None of his uses of the term, in my view, reports a belief that he sees himself as God.

    When Jesus rebuked satan, Jesus said "You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him" in Matthew 4:10 and Luke 4:8, but in John 9:35 Jesus asked the man born blind  “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” (we agree Jesus used phrases "Son of God" and "Son of Man" to refer to himself while have different faith understanding of phrase meanings). If Jesus is not God, what is the purpose of Jesus asking the man born blind to believe in Jesus ? (instead of asking: "Do you believe in God?") After the man born blind believed in Jesus and worshipped Jesus, what motivated Jesus to accept the man's worship ?


    @Bill_Coley wrote: In our exchange, you have repeatedly referred to the "contemporary synagogue usage" of terms. What was the "contemporary synagogue usage" of the term "rabbi"? I propose it referred to a human teacher, not a divine one.

    Currently aware of one Hebrew word (יהוה) whose vowel pointing for pronunciation did not match what was said during public scripture reading in every synagogue when Jesus walked on earth.

    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) discusses Ραάβ usage. Observation: your "rabbi" proposal reflects your faith view.


    John 9:5 (NLT) But while I am here in the world, I am the light of the world.” that echos John 8:12 (NLT) Jesus spoke to the people once more and said, “I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won’t have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life.” that includes Jesus using the same Greek words (Ἐγώ εἰμι) as God in Exodus 3:14 "I am" when God answered Moses about His Name. Hence self identification of Jesus included using God's Name for Himself.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship for God is sin against God, which would make Jesus a sinner and disqualify Jesus from being a savior from sin against God for anyone (actually Jesus would need a savior).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: In my view, you have not demonstrated that Jesus received "worship for God," which means there is no sin against God.

    Ps 95:6-7 (NLT) Come, let us worship and bow down. Let us kneel before the Lord our maker, for he is our God. We are the people he watches over, the flock under his care. 

    Mt 8.2 (NLT) Suddenly, a man with leprosy approached him and knelt before him. “Lord,” the man said, “if you are willing, you can heal me and make me clean.” 

    Mt 15.25 (NLT) But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!” 

    Jn 9.38 (NLT) “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 

    Scripture context documents the three people who worshipped Jesus as God received divine care, which is consistent with Psalm 95:6-7


    @Bill_Coley wrote: And I feel compelled to note that you did not respond to what I think is powerful support for my claim about Jesus and God. It was the following analysis of the "worship" reference in the temptation scene which you had raised, analysis I offered in my previous post:

    Notice the context of this word from Jesus: In Matthew 4.9 (cf LK 4.7) the devil offers Jesus the kingdoms of the earth if he will worship him (the devil). In response to that offer Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6.13.

    In effect, then, the devil says, "Worship me!" and in response Jesus says, "Scripture tells me to worship only God, and that's what I will do."

    Your texts offer another clear, inescapable distinction that Jesus made between himself and God: Jesus sees himself as the worshiper, and God as the one to be worshiped.

    My earlier analysis of Matthew 4.10 and Luke 4:8 was: "Jesus had experienced contemporary synagogue usage of Lord (Lord = κύριος = אָדוֹן = Adonai => יהוה) for יהוה (God's Most Holy Name) during scripture readings. Since Jesus knew "I and the Father are One" (Jn 10.30) includes One name יהוה the rebuke to satan implies satan must worship Jesus, who is One in God." In essence, Jesus rebuked the devil's "Worship me!" with the devil must worship God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) so Jesus quoted scripture to show Jesus must be worshipped as God by the devil. Also, if Jesus is not God, then what motivated the devil to leave (Matthew 4:11) after Jesus commanded "Get out of here, Satan" (Matthew 4:10) ?


    Rephrasing an earlier question: should Jeremiah and Lamentations be in the Bible ? If Jesus is the human descendant of Joseph (who is a descendant of King Jehoiakim), then Jeremiah would not be a prophet speaking God's word (since "The Lord says ..." in Jeremiah 36.30 lacks truth).

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    If Jesus is not God, what is the purpose of Jesus asking the man born blind to believe in Jesus ? (instead of asking: "Do you believe in God?") After the man born blind believed in Jesus and worshipped Jesus, what motivated Jesus to accept the man's worship ?

    My read of the John 9 scene is that Jesus asks the man whether he believes in his (Jesus') power and authority over disease, power and authority granted to him by God. After all, it is Jesus whom the man will credit as the one directly responsible his healing. Note, however, that the man knows Jesus didn't heal him on his own. In John 9.33, the man tells the Pharisees that Jesus is clearly "from God." The man doesn't assert that Jesus IS God! He contends that Jesus is FROM God.

    One other clue that the man doesn't believe he's confessing Jesus' deity when he proclaims belief in the Son of Man: In John 9.25 the man tells the Pharisees that he doesn't know whether Jesus is a sinner. If he believed Jesus were God, there would be no question as to whether Jesus was a sinner.

    As for Jesus' receiving worship. There is no indication in the text that Jesus received the man's response as worship of him as deity. As profound respect and gratitude? Yes! But there's no indication of worship as deity.


    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT) discusses Ραάβ usage. Observation: your "rabbi" proposal reflects your faith view.

    I suppose all of our comments in some way express our faith views, but what matters more is that my "proposal" reflects an accurate reading of John 1.38, in which the writer defines "rabbi" to mean "teacher."


    John 9:5 (NLT) But while I am here in the world, I am the light of the world.” that echos John 8:12 (NLT) Jesus spoke to the people once more and said, “I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won’t have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life.” that includes Jesus using the same Greek words (Ἐγώ εἰμι) as God in Exodus 3:14 "I am" when God answered Moses about His Name. Hence self identification of Jesus included using God's Name for Himself.

    Two words used in the same order in different locations do not necessarily have the same meaning. The meaning of "I am" in the declaration "I am the light of the world" is a statement of personal identity, much as the phrases I use: I am a pastor. I am a husband. Those identifications are VERY different from God's personal naming "I AM" statement in Exodus.


    Ps 95:6-7 (NLT) Come, let us worship and bow down. Let us kneel before theLord our maker, for he is our God. We are the people he watches over, the flock under his care. 

    Mt 8.2 (NLT) Suddenly, a man with leprosy approached him and knelt before him. “Lord,” the man said, “if you are willing, you can heal me and make me clean.” 

    Mt 15.25 (NLT) But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, “Lord, help me!” 

    Jn 9.38 (NLT) “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus. 

    Scripture context documents the three people who worshipped Jesus as God received divine care, which is consistent with Psalm 95:6-7

    We disagree as to whether the three worshiped Jesus as God. All kneeling is not worship, just as all worship is not kneeling.


    My earlier analysis of Matthew 4.10 and Luke 4:8 was: "Jesus had experienced contemporary synagogue usage of Lord (Lord = κύριος = אָדוֹן = Adonai => יהוה) for יהוה (God's Most Holy Name) during scripture readings. Since Jesus knew "I and the Father are One" (Jn 10.30) includes One name יהוה the rebuke to satan implies satan must worship Jesus, who is One in God." In essence, Jesus rebuked the devil's "Worship me!" with the devil must worship God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) so Jesus quoted scripture to show Jesus must be worshipped as God by the devil. Also, if Jesus is not God, then what motivated the devil to leave (Matthew 4:11) after Jesus commanded "Get out of here, Satan" (Matthew 4:10) ?

    In my view, there is no textual support for your view. There is no indication that Jesus wants the devil to worship HIM (Jesus) as God. I accept that you see such a statement in the verse "in essence," but I see no such indication whatsoever. The most obvious reading of the text is that the devil wants Jesus to worship him, but Jesus is willing only to worship the Lord, HIS own God.

    Look at the second temptation, in response to which Jesus says you can't "test the Lord your God." Clearly, Jesus is NOT the God who's being tested by the devil's temptation, which is "Jesus, throw yourself off this temple, and God will send angels to protect you." Jesus tells the devil he won't test his (Jesus') God. Yet ANOTHER clear distinction Jesus draws between himself and God.


    Rephrasing an earlier question: should Jeremiah and Lamentations be in the Bible ? If Jesus is the human descendant of Joseph (who is a descendant of King Jehoiakim), then Jeremiah would not be a prophet speaking God's word (since "The Lord says ..." in Jeremiah 36.30 lacks truth).

    Yes, they should be in the Bible. I read Jeremiah 36.30 as a final judgment against Judah for Jehoiakim's rejection of the prophet's oracle. Basically, the nation - and its leaders - is going to get it in the neck. I don't see the text as reflective of the nation or its legacy 600 years into the future.

  • @Bill_Coley wrote: As for Jesus' receiving worship. There is no indication in the text that Jesus received the man's response as worship of him as deity. As profound respect and gratitude? Yes! But there's no indication of worship as deity.

    Text indication for deity worship is the man born blind saying to Jesus, "Lord, I believe" (remembering contemporary synagogue meaning for Lord => יהוה ). Rephrasing an unanswered question: With Jesus knowing to worship יהוה God only, what motivated Jesus to receive worship from the man born blind ?

    Since Jesus knew the man born blind would credit Jesus as the one from God for the man's divine healing, any insight about the belief question wording by Jesus in John 9:35 ? instead of believe in God ?

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Two words used in the same order in different locations do not necessarily have the same meaning. The meaning of "I am" in the declaration "I am the light of the world" is a statement of personal identity, much as the phrases I use: I am a pastor. I am a husband. Those identifications are VERY different from God's personal naming "I AM" statement in Exodus.

    Observation: from your faith perspective, the same scripture words for personal identification must have "VERY different" meaning. From my faith perspective, qualities that Jesus identifies in Himself using "I AM" statements include more than authority and power granted by God. For example, John 10:14-16 includes sheep hearing the voice of The Good Shepherd plus Jesus knows His sheep along with His sheep knowing Him (intimate love relationship is more than authority and power).

    Hostile crowd of Roman solders, ... responds to Jesus saying Ἐγώ εἰμι in John 18:5-6 by drawing back and falling to the ground. From my perspective, hostile crowd for crucifixion involuntarily worshipped Jesus as יהוה God before Jesus allowed them to arrest Him (foreshadow of Philippians 2:9-11 for everyone that includes kneeling with tongue confessing). To me Philippians 2:5-8 is a declaration by Paul that Jesus is God, who chose to leave heaven (above) to be made in the likeness of man for death on a cross.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: All kneeling is not worship, just as all worship is not kneeling.

    Solders mocking Jesus in Matthew 27:27-31 did kneel, but their tongues did not confess Jesus as Lord (so lacked worship).

    God used kneeling in Judges 7:5-6 to separate men for God's purpose (nothing to say while drinking water).

    Searching All Bibles (934) in my Logos library for verse(s) having three words: worship not kneel found three verses in six Bibles so copied and pasted half of the six search results:

    3 Kgdms 19:18 (LES) You will leave in Israel seven thousand men, all the knees who have not kneeled a knee to Baal and every mouth that has not worshiped him.” 

      Rick Brannan, Ken M. Penner, et al., eds., The Lexham English Septuagint (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), 3 Kgdms 19:18.

    Psalm 22:30 (TLV) All the rich of the earth will feast and worship. Everyone who goes down to the dust will kneel before Him—even the one who could not keep his own soul alive. 

    Messianic Jewish Family Bible Society, Holy Scriptures: Tree of Life Version (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2015), Ps 22:30.

    Daniel 3:6 (The Message) Anyone who does not kneel and worship shall be thrown immediately into a roaring furnace.”

    Eugene H. Peterson, The Message: The Bible in Contemporary Language (Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 2005), Da 3:6.

    Psalm 95:6-7, Matthew 8:2, Matthew 15:25, and John 9:38 combine worship/kneeling with tongue confessing Lord יהוה God.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • @Bill_Coley wrote: I suppose all of our comments in some way express our faith views, but what matters more is that my "proposal" reflects an accurate reading of John 1.38, in which the writer defines "rabbi" to mean "teacher."

    For Rabbi learning, recommend reading two books by Lois Tverberg: (linked to Faithlife ebooks)

    Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewishness of Jesus Can Transform Your Faith

    Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewish Words of Jesus Can Change Your Life


    Would it surprise you to learn that the rabbis thought that study, and not prayer, was the highest form of worship? They pointed out that when we pray, we speak to God, but that when we study the Scriptures, God speaks to us. Of course they weren’t advocating a coldly intellectual approach to Scripture, but the kind of study that is motivated by a deep reverence for God’s Word. The Talmud says that a person who studies without reverence “is like a man with a treasure chest who owns the inner keys but not the outer keys.”4 Such a person might think he understands, but the true meaning of Scripture remains hidden, locked away.


      4.    David Bivin, New Light on the Difficult Words of Jesus (Holland, MI: En-Gedi Resource Center, 2005), 14.

     Ann Spangler and Lois Tverberg, Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewishness of Jesus Can Transform Your Faith (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2018).


    Not Just a Rabbi

    One thing I don’t want you to misunderstand. You might think that by calling Jesus “rabbi” I’m implying that he was just an innovative teacher trying to promote a new idea, like Edison with a light bulb or Bill Gates with a new operating system. We’re so used to thinking this way that we assume that Jesus’ goal was to compete in the realm of thought. We mistakenly hear Jesus’ message about the “kingdom of God” as if he’s trying to sell an exciting new plan for establishing world peace. But to Jesus’ Jewish audience, to proclaim the kingdom of God was to make a shocking announcement that God’s promised Messiah had arrived, because the task of the Messiah was to establish God’s kingdom on earth. Jesus was making an earth-shattering claim that he was the Christ, and that God’s redemption of the world would come through him.22

    The reason I point this out is because it allows us to release Jesus from the age-old competitive game of “Jesus vs. Judaism,” where his ideas can only be right if everyone else’s are wrong, and vice versa. If, as a Christian, you start out by assuming that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God, he simply doesn’t need to compete. He speaks with divine authority whether he disagrees with the Jewish thought of his day or affirms it. We can grow as his disciples when we hear his words in their Jewish context and learn how to better live them out.

    Bearing this in mind, it is still appropriate to speak of Jesus as “rabbi,” because part of his mission was to teach his redeemed people how God wanted them to live.23 He did so by using the methods that other early Jewish sages used for teaching and raising disciples. Throughout the Gospels Jesus was called “teacher” and “rabbi” by those around him, and members of the early church universally called themselves “disciples.” They were mathetai (Greek for “students”), followers of the “Way” that Jesus had taught them for living.

    Walking in His Dust

    The way Jesus taught his first disciples was not unique but part of a wider tradition in Judaism that began a few centuries before his time. Jesus didn’t hand his disciples a textbook or give them a course syllabus. He asked each one of them to follow him—literally, to “walk after” him. He invited them to trek the byways at his side, living life beside him to learn from him as they journeyed. His disciples would engage in life’s activities along with him, observing his responses and imitating how he lived by God’s Word.

    Out of this unusual teaching method arose a well-known saying: you should learn from a rabbi by “covering yourself in his dust.” You should follow so closely behind him as he traveled from town to town teaching that billows of sandy granules would cling to your clothes.24 As you walked after your rabbi, your heart would change. This will be our task in this book, to stroll through Jesus’ ancient world at his side, listening to his words with the ears of a disciple.


    22 For a full discussion of how the kingdom of God relates to Jesus’ messianic claims, see Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus, 180–95. Also, see Craig Evans, “Messianic Hopes and Messianic Figures in Late Antiquity,” Journal of Greco-Roman Christianity and Judaism 3 (2006): 9–40. This is also available at www.craigaevans.com/studies.htm.

    23 Some point out that it wasn’t until a few decades later that “rabbi” was used as a formal title, after AD 70. For this reason, modern scholars refer to teachers of Jesus’ era as “sages” rather than “rabbis.” During his lifetime, “rabbi” was a respectful way to address a religious teacher, because it means “my master.” Some of the places where Jesus was addressed as “rabbi” in the Gospels are Mark 9:5; 11:21; and John 1:37; 3:2; 4:31; 6:25; 11:8.

    24 This saying, from Mishnah, Avot 1:4, is ascribed to Yose ben Yoezer, who lived in the second century BC. The Hebrew literally reads, “powder yourself with the dust of their feet.” Often translated as “sit amidst the dust of their feet,” it also could refer to the fact that disciples sat at the feet of their teacher, as Paul did for Gamaliel in Acts 22:3. However, noted Jewish scholar Shmuel Safrai asserts that it likely refers to walking along the dusty roads together. See his The Jewish People in the First Century (Amsterdam: Van Gorcum, 1976), 965. For more, see the article “Covered in the Dust of Your Rabbi: An Urban Legend?” at OurRabbiJesus.com.

     Lois Tverberg and Ray Vander Laan, Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewish Words of Jesus Can Change Your Life (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2012).

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    Text indication for deity worship is the man born blind saying to Jesus, "Lord, I believe" (remembering contemporary synagogue meaning for Lord => יהוה ). Rephrasing an unanswered question: With Jesus knowing to worship יהוה God only, what motivated Jesus to receive worship from the man born blind ?

    I repeat and expand upon my contention that there is no textual support for your claim that the man born blind offers deity worship to Jesus.

    1. John 9.11 - He refers to his healer as "the man called Jesus."
    2. John 9.17 - He refers to Jesus as a "prophet."
    3. John 9.25 - He says he doesn't know whether Jesus is a sinner.
    4. John 9.31 - He says his healing suggests that Jesus must worship and do the will of God since God doesn't listen to sinners.
    5. John 9.33 - He all but declares that Jesus is from God.

    Five opportunities for the man born blind to say Jesus is God. Instead, in every instance he uses words whose most sensible interpretation is that Jesus is a human sent and empowered by God. At some point, it seems to me, you must explain why the man offers no direct claim of Jesus' deity if he believes Jesus is in fact God. More to the point, you must explain why the man's word choice most sensibly is interpreted as a rejection of Jesus' deity.


    Since Jesus knew the man born blind would credit Jesus as the one from God for the man's divine healing, any insight about the belief question wording by Jesus in John 9:35 ? instead of believe in God ?

    As I indicated in a previous reply to you in this thread, I see Jesus' question as an inquiry into whether the man born blind believes in Jesus' power and authority over sickness and disease. "Son of Man" is NOT a term of deity for Jesus, at least not as I read the Gospels.


    Observation: from your faith perspective, the same scripture words for personal identification must have "VERY different" meaning. From my faith perspective, qualities that Jesus identifies in Himself using "I AM" statements include more than authority and power granted by God. For example, John 10:14-16 includes sheep hearing the voice of The Good Shepherd plus Jesus knows His sheep along with His sheep knowing Him (intimate love relationship is more than authority and power).

    Yes. Jesus identifies in himself "authority and power granted by God." We agree.


    Hostile crowd of Roman solders, ... responds to Jesus saying Ἐγώ εἰμι in John 18:5-6 by drawing back and falling to the ground. From my perspective, hostile crowd for crucifixion involuntarily worshipped Jesus as יהוה God before Jesus allowed them to arrest Him (foreshadow of Philippians 2:9-11 for everyone that includes kneeling with tongue confessing).

    I disagree with your suggestion that worship can be involuntary.


    To me Philippians 2:5-8 is a declaration by Paul that Jesus is God, who chose to leave heaven (above) to be made in the likeness of man for death on a cross.

    I disagree that Paul claims Jesus is God in Philippians 2. In my view, that's clear in Philippians 2.8-9, where Jesus humbles himself in obedience to God, and then God exalts him. It's also clear in Philippians 2.11 where the confession is NOT that Jesus is God. Instead, it is that Jesus is master ("Lord") and that such confessions are made to the glory of God (yet ANOTHER clear distinction between God and Jesus)

    As for the bowing: Notice Paul's language is that every knee "should" bow. There is no claim in the passage that worship will be involuntary as you contend it is in the arrest scene.


    God used kneeling in Judges 7:5-6 to separate men for God's purpose (nothing to say while drinking water).

    The kneeling in Judges 7 has nothing to do with worship; it has to do with divine selection or calling.


    3 Kgdms 19:18 (LES) You will leave in Israel seven thousand men, all the knees who have not kneeled a knee to Baal and every mouth that has not worshiped him.” 

    I'm not familiar with the book of "3 Kgdms."


    Psalm 22:30 (TLV) All the rich of the earth will feast and worship. Everyone who goes down to the dust will kneel before Him—even the one who could not keep his own soul alive. 

    The Bibles in my Logos collection give no indication whatsoever of a meaning such as this to the Psalm 22 verse. There's not a hint of worship or kneeling in the translations I consulted.


    Daniel 3:6 (The Message) Anyone who does not kneel and worship shall be thrown immediately into a roaring furnace.”

    Eugene H. Peterson, The Message: The Bible in Contemporary Language (Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 2005), Da 3:6.

    Psalm 95:6-7Matthew 8:2Matthew 15:25, and John 9:38 combine worship/kneeling with tongue confessing Lord יהוה God.

    I remind you that my point is that ALL kneeling is not worship, and ALL worship is not kneeling... contentions that do NOT rule out the possibility that SOME kneeling is worship, and SOME worship is kneeling. That is, your cited verses do not disprove my claim.

  • @Bill_Coley wrote: I repeat and expand upon my contention that there is no textual support for your claim that the man born blind offers deity worship to Jesus. ... More to the point, you must explain why the man's word choice most sensibly is interpreted as a rejection of Jesus' deity.

    Major fear factor in John 9.22 is missing from word choice analysis (magnitude of fear shows in parents answering the synagogue leaders: appears parents valued community relationships more than their own son). After the man born blind had been thrown out of highly valued community relationships in John 9.34, Jesus asked about deity belief in Jesus. With major fear factor removed, man born blind answers by worshipping Jesus as Lord יהוה God in John 9.38

    Daily Jewish prayers include Deuteronomy 6:4-9 "The Shema". John 9.6-7 has Shema example when the man born blind heard (Shema) words from Jesus and obeyed to receive eye sight. Later the man born blind was thrown out of highly valued synagogue community. My human speculation is the man born blind became a follower of the itinerant Rabbi: Jesus.

    Restating an unanswered question: With Jesus knowing to worship יהוה God only, what motivated Jesus to receive worship from the man born blind ?


    @Bill_Coley wrote: As I indicated in a previous reply to you in this thread, I see Jesus' question as an inquiry into whether the man born blind believes in Jesus' power and authority over sickness and disease. "Son of Man" is NOT a term of deity for Jesus, at least not as I read the Gospels.

    Chapter 3 "Stringing Pearls" in Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewishness of Jesus Can Transform Your Faith includes "Son of Man" section that enhanced my faith understanding: "Son of Man" describes heavenly action after ascension of Jesus (after physical body resurrection), which preceded Words of Jesus in Matthew 28.18-20

    Please elaborate on words chosen by Jesus to ask man born blind about belief. Notably missing from question is words about power and authority. Also Jesus asked about belief in Jesus (third person phrase) instead of asking about belief in God.


    @Bill_Coley wrote: I remind you that my point is that ALL kneeling is not worship, and ALL worship is not kneeling... contentions that do NOT rule out the possibility that SOME kneeling is worship, and SOME worship is kneeling. 

    Cited verses agree with ALL ... not ... point assertion. My point for SOME divine kneeling/worship is: Psalm 95:6-7Matthew 8:2Matthew 15:25, and John 9:38 that combines worship/kneeling with tongue confessing Lord יהוה God.

    FYI: 3 Kingdoms 19:18 in the Lexham English Septuagint (LES) maps to 1 Kings 19:18 in many other English Bibles. Psalm 22:30 in the Tree of Life Version (TLV) maps to Psalm 22:29 in many other English Bibles. Logos wiki has => https://wiki.logos.com/Bible_Verse_Maps


    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    Major fear factor in John 9.22 is missing from word choice analysis (magnitude of fear shows in parents answering the synagogue leaders: appears parents valued community relationships more than their own son). After the man born blind had been thrown out of highly valued community relationships in John 9.34, Jesus asked about deity belief in Jesus. With major fear factor removed, man born blind answers by worshipping Jesus as Lord יהוה God in John 9.38

    According to the story, the man born blind exhibits NO "fear factor" in his pre-excommunication from the synagogue conversations with the Jewish leaders. It is HIS PARENTS, not he, who exhibit fear. THEY limit their responses to the leaders' questions about their son's blindness out of fear for their place in the synagogue; their son does not:

    • HE tells the leaders the truth directly and bluntly.
    • HE asks whether they even listened to his first responses. (John 9.27)
    • HE asks whether they might secretly want to become a follower of Jesus themselves. (John 9.27)
    • HE confronts the leaders' skepticism by asserting that only someone from God could effect the healing Jesus. (John 9.33)

    Where in the man's responses to the synagogue leaders do you find any semblance of a "fear factor"? I contend fear plays no role in the man's responses, which means his decisions to refer to Jesus in terms that report humanity not divinity must be rooted in something other than fear - for example, his personal beliefs.


    Daily Jewish prayers include Deuteronomy 6:4-9 "The Shema". John 9.6-7 has Shema example when the man born blind heard (Shema) words from Jesus and obeyed to receive eye sight. Later the man born blind was thrown out of highly valued synagogue community. My human speculation is the man born blind became a follower of the itinerant Rabbi: Jesus.

    I don't see how the man's following Jesus' instructions is analogous to the The Shema in Deuteronomy. The Shema presents a spiritual prophylactic, while Jesus' instructions to the born blind are a response to a specific need for healing. In addition, Deuteronomy 6 contains warnings about the consequences of not following God's commands (Deuteronomy 6.14-16). There are no similar warnings in John 6. I contend the two stories are not comparable.


    Restating an unanswered question: With Jesus knowing to worship יהוה God only, what motivated Jesus to receive worship from the man born blind ?

    I'm sorry for the miscommunication on this question, which I think I've addressed in at least four previous posts:

    • HERE: "As I pointed out earlier in our exchange, Jesus seems clearly to dispute any identification of himself as God in Luke 18.19, when in response to the adjective "good" he questions why the man would call him good when only God is good. I find no textual basis for the alternative interpretation of that response which you offered at the time I raised it.
    • HERE: "In my view, you have not demonstrated that Jesus received "worship for God," which means there is no sin against God."
    • HERE: "As for Jesus' receiving worship. There is no indication in the text that Jesus received the man's response as worship of him as deity. As profound respect and gratitude? Yes! But there's no indication of worship as deity."
    • AND MOST RECENTLY, HERE: "I repeat and expand upon my contention that there is no textual support for your claim that the man born blind offers deity worship to Jesus...." (see previous post for details)

    Bottom line: There is no textual support for the claim that Jesus received the man's "worship" as deity worship. You clearly disagree with my point of view on this matter, but it IS my point of view, one that I have expressed in multiple previous posts.

  • Humanly not know when the man born blind choose to believe in Jesus as Lord יהוה God (as expressed in John 9:38 worship).

    The answer of "prophet" in John 9:17 allowed man born blind to remain in synagogue community for awhile (humanly not know if "prophet" was a politically correct peaceful answer or reflected the man's belief at that moment). Noticed parents and man born blind both used "don't know" in answers to Jewish leaders (who were angry at Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath so they believed Jesus deserved to die according to Exodus 31:14-15, 35:2).


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: Restating an unanswered question: With Jesus knowing to worship יהוה God only, what motivated Jesus to receive worship from the man born blind ?

    @Bill_Coley wrote: I'm sorry for the miscommunication on this question, which I think I've addressed in at least four previous posts:

    None of your four previous posts provide motivation for Jesus to receive worship from the man born blind.

    Observation: four previous replies restate your faith perspective (since you believe Jesus is not God, then Jesus could not be worshipped as God). None of your replies provide rationale for Jesus to receive worship.


    Do you agree John 9:38 includes words worship & Lord ? (while not believing John 9:38 ascribes worship to Jesus as יהוה God)

    John 9:38 has the man born blind worshipping plus calling Jesus Lord, which had cultural meaning of יהוה God. Observant Jews daily pray, which includes "The Shema" twice: "Hear Israel, Lord our God Lord One" (Hebrew does not have verbs in "The Shema" phrase). When Hebrew scriptures were translated to Greek ~200 years before Jesus, יהוה in "The Shema" became κύριος = Lord.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    Humanly not know when the man born blind choose to believe in Jesus as Lord יהוה God (as expressed in John 9:38 worship).

    We're at an impasse on this matter. In my view, the John 9 text simply does NOT report that the man born blind "chose to believe in Jesus as Lord God." As I pointed out in five bullet points that referenced various aspects of the man's description of Jesus, he repeatedly uses human, not divine, terms, a fact that leads me to conclude he does NOT use "Lord" as a reference to deity, but rather as a term of respect and gratitude.


    The answer of "prophet" in John 9:17 allowed man born blind to remain in synagogue community for awhile (humanly not know if "prophet" was a politically correct peaceful answer or reflected the man's belief at that moment). Noticed parents and man born blind both used "don't know" in answers to Jewish leaders (who were angry at Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath so they believed Jesus deserved to die according to Exodus 31:14-15, 35:2).

    There is NO indication in the text that the man's use of the phrase "I don't know" is the product of fear. The parents' use of that phrase? YES! But the man's use of the phrase seems clearly to mean only that he doesn't know. With respect I contend that you're reading fear into the man's response... when it's not there.


    None of your four previous posts provide motivation for Jesus to receive worship from the man born blind.

    Our miscommunication about this matter continues.

    I believe I addressed the issue of Jesus' motivation to accept the man's "worship" when in THIS POST I pointed to the possibility that the man's "worship" might express his "profound respect and gratitude." Why wouldn't Jesus accept an expression of gratitude and respect? The larger point remains that there is NO indication in the text that the man intends his worship to be deity worship (see the give bullet points referenced above).


    Observation: four previous replies restate your faith perspective (since you believe Jesus is not God, then Jesus could not be worshipped as God). None of your replies provide rationale for Jesus to receive worship.

    My textual perspective is that Jesus is NOT "worshiped as God" in the story of the man born blind. In my view, it is your faith perspective that contributes to your conclusion about the presence of deity worship in the story, worship which in my view is simply not there. We clearly disagree. I hope you will address all five of the bullet points I reference earlier (not just "prophet").


    Do you agree John 9:38 includes words worship & Lord ? (while not believing John 9:38 ascribes worship to Jesus as יהוה God)

    Yes. Do you agree that the man born blind refers to Jesus as a "man," (John 9.11) who may or may not be a sinner (John 9.25)?


    John 9:38 has the man born blind worshipping plus calling Jesus Lord, which had cultural meaning of יהוה God. Observant Jews daily pray, which includes "The Shema" twice: "Hear Israel, Lord our God Lord One" (Hebrew does not have verbs in "The Shema" phrase). When Hebrew scriptures were translated to Greek ~200 years before Jesus, יהוה in "The Shema" became κύριος = Lord.

    I've already commented on the Shema. It seems to me your challenge is to reconcile the man's use of "Lord" in John 9.38 with his use of "prophet," "man," and his uncertainty as to whether Jesus is a sinner. How could he intend to worship Jesus as God and yet be unsure whether Jesus is a sinner? How could he intend to worship Jesus as God, yet call him a "man" and a "prophet," words which have clearly human, not divine, connotations?

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    My daily Bible reading regularly leads me to texts that support my view of the relationship between Jesus and God. I've made many mentions and written extensive analyses of Peter's Acts 2 sermon. Today the NT portion of my daily reading took me through Acts 4, in which Peter and company defend themselves before authorities after their healing of a lame man in Acts 3.

    First, here's Acts 4.7-12: (emphasis added)

    7 They brought in the two disciples and demanded, “By what power, or in whose name, have you done this?” 

    8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of our people, 9 are we being questioned today because we’ve done a good deed for a crippled man? Do you want to know how he was healed? 10 Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead. 11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, 

      ‘The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.’ 

    12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.” 

    Tyndale House Publishers. (2013). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (Ac 4:7–12). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.

    What better time to declare that Jesus is God! But that's NOT what Peter does. Instead, I contend, Peter offers a clear and undeniable distinction between God and the man God raised from the dead.


    Now here's Acts 4.23-31: (emphasis added)

    23 As soon as they were freed, Peter and John returned to the other believers and told them what the leading priests and elders had said. 24 When they heard the report, all the believers lifted their voices together in prayer to God: “O Sovereign Lord, Creator of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them—25 you spoke long ago by the Holy Spirit through our ancestor David, your servant, saying, 

      ‘Why were the nations so angry?  Why did they waste their time with futile plans? 

      26 The kings of the earth prepared for battle;  the rulers gathered together against the LORD and against his Messiah.’ 

    27 “In fact, this has happened here in this very city! For Herod Antipas, Pontius Pilate the governor, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel were all united against Jesus, your holy servant, whom you anointed. 28 But everything they did was determined beforehand according to your will. 29 And now, O Lord, hear their threats, and give us, your servants, great boldness in preaching your word. 30 Stretch out your hand with healing power; may miraculous signs and wonders be done through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 

    31 After this prayer, the meeting place shook, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. Then they preached the word of God with boldness. 

    Tyndale House Publishers. (2013). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (Ac 4:23–31). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.

    In their prayer, the believers twice declare Jesus to be God's "holy servant," the one God "anointed." Further, they ask God for great things to be done through the name of God's "holy servant."

    So in Acts 4, Jesus is a man God raised from the dead, and God's "anointed" "holy servant" through whose name believers want God to do mighty acts. In my view, that is NOT a description of one the believers thought was God. That's a description of one the believers thought was God's chosen human servant. My question to you: How do you reconcile these pronouncements from Acts 4 with your view that Jesus was God?

  • Prior to Jesus asking the man born blind, the man had been answering human questions, including Pharisees who were angry about God's miraculous healing on Sabbath. Angry ones were not able to rejoice in God's choice to heal. I can only imagine the loving tone spoken by Jesus to the Pharisees in John 9.41 (NLT) “If you were blind, you wouldn’t be guilty,” Jesus replied. “But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.”


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: Do you agree John 9:38 includes words worship & Lord ? (while not believing John 9:38 ascribes worship to Jesus as יהוה God)

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Yes. Do you agree that the man born blind refers to Jesus as a "man," (John 9.11) who may or may not be a sinner (John 9.25)?

    Yes for John 9.11 plus agree with man born blind about having no sin testimony against Jesus. Do you agree the man born blind spoke Lord in John 9:38 as an expression of personal belief in Jesus (included respect, gratitude, ...) ?

    Fascinating aspect about John 9.11 is the man born blind knowing "The man they call Jesus ..." since John 9 does not mention name of Jesus being spoken.

    Jesus words in John 9:39 read to me as One who directly causes divine action = God (who left heaven to enter this world to render judgment ...).


    @Bill_Coley wrote: I believe I addressed the issue of Jesus' motivation to accept the man's "worship" when in THIS POST I pointed to the possibility that the man's "worship" might express his "profound respect and gratitude." Why wouldn't Jesus accept an expression of gratitude and respect? 

    What does worship mean to you ? What words in scripture could indicate deity worship for you ?


    @Bill_Coley wrote: My daily Bible reading regularly leads me to texts that support my view of the relationship between Jesus and God.  ... First, here's Acts 4.7-12: (emphasis added) ... What better time to declare that Jesus is God! But that's NOT what Peter does.

    What you "see" in scripture text is restricted (filtered) by what you believe (from my faith view, your replies show knowledge of Jesus while not knowing Jesus). ... Actually Peter declared Jesus is God, who fulfilled Messianic prophecy, in an appropriate Jewish way: e.g. quoted part of Psalm 118 (since Sanhedrin hearers could fill in Psalm 118 context from their years of studying scripture).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Now here's Acts 4.23-31: (emphasis added)

    What does Psalm 2:12 (NLT) "Submit to God's royal son" mean to you ? Acts 4:25-26 quoted Psalm 2:1-2 (believers in Acts 4 had Jewish background so knew Psalm 2 context).

    Keep Smiling [:)]

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