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Indeed ... those who find wisdom from God will find life. The fools injure themselves. This has been true long before the time of Christ,

Indeed ... those who believe in Christ will have eternal life.

Just don't patch up topically unrelated verses into a non-fitting patchwork theology ... just because a certain word or expression is used in both places.

I agree that the personal pronoun "me" appears in both the Proverbs 8 and John 11 verses. But according to Logos Bible Software, the personal pronoun "me" ALSO appears in 3,108 OTHER LEB Bible verses.

I also agree that the personal pronoun "me" appears along with the word "life" in both cited passages. But according to Logos Bible Software, the personal pronoun "me" ALSO appears along with the word "life" in 83 OTHER LEB Bible verses.

So what?

As for the content of the two verses, and in light of your objection to equating "as" or "like" to "the way," I must note that in John 11 Jesus says those who "believe" in him will "live," whereas in Proverbs 8 wisdom says those who "find" it "obtains favor from Yahweh." Wisdom does NOT say those who "believe" will "live;" its says those who "find" will "obtain favor." If in your view "as" and "like" don't have the same meaning as "the way" in the two texts, SURELY for you "believe" is not the same as "find," and "live" does not equate to "find favor."

In this matter, in much the same way as I demonstrated in THIS POST earlier in this thread, your exegesis is indefensible.

At issue in this current exchange is your connection of texts in Proverbs 8 and John 11, not the eternal prospects of "those who are dumb, mute, and deaf to the truth." I will welcome and respond to any on-topic response you have to my previous post.

No, I don't stand corrected.

Q: According to the text - not our impositions onto the text - who speaks in Proverbs 8?

A: "Wisdom," not a person (Proverbs 8.1-3). Proverbs 8 clearly presents a personification of a wisdom.

Q: What ELSE does the book of Proverbs say about "wisdom"?

A: According to the text:

• It comes from God's mouth, as do "knowledge and understanding" (Proverbs 2.6).
• It helps us "understand righteousness and justice and uprightness" (Proverbs 2.9).
• It, along with understanding, brings happiness (Proverbs 3.13).
• Its "beginning" is for us to "get wisdom" and to "gain insight" (Proverbs 4.7).
• In its "way" the writer of Proverbs has "instructed" us, as he has led us "in the path of uprightness."
• The writer of Proverbs - who is NOT God - calls us to be "attentive" to HIS wisdom and understanding (Proverbs 5.1).
• We are to say to it, "you are my sister" as we call "insight" our "intimate friend" (Proverbs 7.4).
• It is found "on the lips of one who has understanding" (Proverbs 10.13).
• The mouths of "the righteous" bring it forth (Proverbs 10.31).
• It becomes "known" "even in the midst of fools" (Proverbs 13.33).
• It is gained by listening to advice and accepting instruction (Proverbs 19.20).

Those are characteristics of people who are righteous, just, and insightful, not identification of people themselves.

In addition, personification is used frequently in the Bible:

• Genesis 4.10: Abel's blood "cries out" to God.
• Isaiah 55.12: A prediction of mountains and hills that break forth in rejoicing and trees that "clap their hands."
• Psalm 77.16: Waters see God and tremble.
• Isaiah 24.23: The moon and the sun are ashamed.

Those are human actions and responses attributed to non-human things. Proverbs 8 gives human voice to the non-human attribute of wisdom.

1 Kings 4 reports that God gave Solomon "wisdom...and very great discernment, as well as breadth of understanding as the sand which is on the edge of the seashore" (1 Kings 4.29). The text says Solomon's wisdom was "greater than the wisdom of all the people of the east and more than all the wisdom of Egypt" (1 Kings 4.30.) People came "from all the nations to hear the wisdom of Solomon; from all the kings of the earth who had heard of his wisdom" (1 Kings 4.34). 

Was Solomon also a personification of wisdom?

I don't know what this means.

John 11.25 is not about, and in fact, makes no mention of, wisdom, so there's no "US" needed.

So, I ask my question again: Given that his wisdom came from God and, according to 1Kings 4, was of enormous magnitude and global renown, was Solomon a personification of wisdom?

This particular exchange began when I asked you to cite the verse(s) in which Jesus "referred to himself as wisdom." The single text you cited prompted me to ask in three subsequent posts - THIS ONE, THIS ONE, and THIS ONE - whether your contention was that Proverbs 8 ALSO applied to John the Baptist, since Jesus' reference to wisdom in the passage you cited was his defense of his own AND John the Baptist's conduct (Matthew 11.18-19). If you claim the Matthew 11 text connects Jesus to Proverbs 8 BUT NOT John the Baptist, please explain where in the text you find support for your conclusion.

I've asked that question three previous times without receiving your response. I ask it now a fourth time.

Proverbs 8 refers to the Begining of Creation (Colossians 1:15) The two feminie nouns refer to Jesus Christ.

Strong's Concordance

arché: beginning, origin

Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: arché

Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')

Definition: beginning, origin

Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

HELPS Word-studies

746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

Therfore you reject that Jesus Christ is Preeminent. 746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent"). Compare Proverbs 8:22

From eternity, I was set up from the first,  from the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths, I was brought forth,  when there were no springs of abounding water. Before mountains had been shaped, before hills, I was brought forth. (Proverbs 8:23-25)

You asked me for proof that Wisdom can be spoekn of in the masculine sense. So I gave you the scripture which reads, "I was beside him, a master workman, and I was delighting day by day," (Proverbs 8:30) You then made the false claim that it was God that came beside Wisdom as a master workman. And I said No , it is Wisdom speaking. (Proverbs 8:22-30) In the Begining was the Word (John 1)

Strong's Concordance

ktisis: creation (the act or the product)

Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: ktisis

Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)

Definition: creation (the act or the product)

Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; Always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo)

Jesus it the Firstborn of All What? Firstborn of All CREATION, some translations say CREATURES. (Colassians 1:15Always of Divine Work which leads us back to (Proverbs 8:22-30) Creation bring us to the word Deity... another feminine noun that descibes Christ.

Wisdom - Begining - Creation - leads to the Deity of Christ. (Proverbs 8:31) Points to humanity. The Word became Flesh (John 1:14) FLESH is another feminine noun. Who became flesh?

Strong's Concordance

sarx: flesh

Original Word: σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: sarx

Phonetic Spelling: (sarx)

Definition: flesh

Usage: flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.

Strong's Concordance

theotés: deity

Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: theotés

Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)

Definition: deity

Usage: deity, Godhead.

Strong's Concordance

theos: God, a god

Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: theos

Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)

Definition: God, a god

Usage: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

You have fallen victim to a manner of "word study" which is largely misapplied and leads to error.

Prov 8 states that already at the beginning of creation wisdom was used to bring it about ... God did not create stupidly, did He? No, He created wisely.

Your "conclusion" about two feminine nouns refer to Jesus is the type of false word study procedure fantasy and has no biblical basis.

More non-coherent logic founded on lack of understanding of basic linguistics, language rules and usage.

Where does the Biblical text speak about "Jesus is Grace personified"? See my earlier post about "personification" and how people misunderstand it and get things backwards.

Yes .. ...so where is a figure of speech "personification" used in this text passage??

Brethren,

The more important focus of Proverbs 8 should refer to Christ’s installation as Creator and not His being created. A wide semantic range of terms and an intertextual study indicate this.

Arians interpreted Proverbs 8:22–23 as support for Christ being created. It’s unfortunate, Arius believed that only the Father was absolute, unchanging, eternal, and unbegotten. His interpretation of Proverbs 8:22 is incorrect. He concluded that Jesus was begotten of the Father, created out of nothing (ex nihilo), far back in eternity. He taught that before Christ’s creation, God was not the Father but a solitary God. After the Father created Him, Christ gradually, over time, became God. Wow! What an imagination!

The early church fathers misinterpreted Proverbs 8:22. Without saying, Monarchianism and Arianism failed to do justice to the Trinity. Proverbs 8:22 is the biblical root passage claimed to support the subordination of Son and Spirit to the Father. For example:

• Justin Martyr used the text to show that the Word (Christ) was “begotten of the Father” (and was the first to do so).
• Irenaeus used the text to state that Wisdom (Spirit) was “created” by the Father.
• The Son was “begotten,” and the Spirit was “created.”
• Tertullian -- saw Christ (as Word and Wisdom) was “created,” or “formed,” by the Father.
• Origen said this text means Christ was “created” by the Father.
• Arius believed the text supported the creation of Christ.

 Note: In each of these, the early Fathers, there is a subordination of the Son or Spirit to the Father, and begotten seems to be a synonym for created.

In my view, they probably meant well, but sincerely WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

SOURCES:

• Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1989), 1:227 (61–62).
• Roger E. Olson and Christopher A. Hall, The Trinity (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2002), 22.
•  Irenaeus, Against Heresies, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1:488 (20.3).
• Tertullian, Against Praxeas, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3:601 (7).
• Origen, De Principiis, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 4:246 (1.2.1).

Here is why they were so wrong-headed; the English translations indicate the problem.

• “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work” (ESV; emphasis added).
• Other versions use “possessed me” (NASB, KJV, NKJV; emphasis added), or “formed” me (Goodspeed; emphasis added), or “created” me (NEB, RSV; emphasis added) or “brought me forth” (NIV; emphasis added).
• “Possessed” could indicate something other than creation. But the Hebrew Old Testament uses qānâ, which can mean “create,” and the Greek Old Testament (LXX) uses ktizō, which can mean “made.”

Some took this as green light as a solid linguistic basis for their interpretation. What looked like the right way, they failed to acknowledge the words in a broader perspective. For example:

• There is a wide semantic range for the Hebrew word qānâ, and “create” is ONLY ONE of several options.
• Even an intertextual study of Scripture or canonical hermeneutic (bringing all pertinent Scriptures to aid the interpretation) should have signaled something to them. They should have realized the equality of the Father, Son, and Spirit, and thus to question their choice of “create” as the appropriate translation of the Hebrew word qānâ in Proverbs 8:22.

SOURCE: 

• Izak Cornelius/Raymond C. Van Leeuwen, “qnh,” in New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1997), 3:941.

The answer to the problem has a simple resolution:

• Context, the first rule of interpretation, is fundamentally overlooked.
• Proverbs 8:23 -- holds the key to a correct interpretation. It gives a clue to interpreting “create” or “made” in verse22 before.

Proverbs 8:23 in the Hebrew Bible speaks of Wisdom being:

• “Established” (NASB, Heb. nāsak)
• “Set up” (RSV)
• “Inaugurated/ordained” (AMP), or
• “Appointed” (NIV 1984)

Watch this, rather than: 

• “Possessed” (KJV, NKJV)
• “Formed” (NIV), or “created” (NEB).

The word nāsak is translated as “installed” in Psalm 2:6 (NIV):

• “I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill.”

This more comprehensive semantic range is compatible with the biblical presentation of a self-existent, eternal Son of God rather than the language of birth or beginning.

So, in some, the context of Proverbs 8 is about creation. It was, in part, the installation of Christ as Creator. This turns the Arian interpretation on its head, for Proverbs 8:22–23 is about Christ’s being installed as Creator and not being created.

Let’s keep studying. There is more understanding to be had. CM

Nothing there about anything of "grace personified"

? why did you change word order here to come up with a statement not found in the Bible ?

How do you come up with such totally false ideas about me ??

@Wolfgang said:

@Wolfgang ,

It seems that you’re snuggly in bed with the early Church Fathers when it comes to Christ being “created” over the plain reading of the Bible. What you call “fancy theological sources” is their calling card of blatant heresy! You, sir, must do more than dismiss sober-thinking, Scripture, and the more comprehensive semantic range when it comes to Proverbs 8. As a man of letters, words, and languages, you MUST allow the text to breathe. You must open your mind wide and permit the Spirit to show you that Proverbs 8 is about creation and a part of it, the installation of Christ as Creator.

Mr. Wolfgang, Hebrews (1:2) confirms a significant New Testament theme found in places such as Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3: Christ is Creator and is God. John 1 especially makes this connection that all that was made was made through the Word (Christ); thus, He is Creator. At the same time, that Word is declared not only to have been with God (Theos) but also “was”—the Greek tense gives a continuous, ongoing sense of “was”—God (Theos).

In Isaiah 40, creation is what distinguishes God from the idol. God creates; the idol is made (Isa. 40: 18–28). Perhaps, in another thread, a closer look a Hebrews 1 would undoubtedly make clearer Christ as Creator. In meanwhile, accept John sees Christ’s role in creation as revealing His full divinity. CM

Christ is never referred as the Creator. The Bible clearly states,  "Have you not known, or have you not heard? Yahweh [is] the God of eternity, [the] creator [of] the ends of the earth! He is not faint, and he does not grow weary! There is no searching his understanding. (Isaiah 40:28)

Is this true? Is there such generalization in 1Cor 1:24 made and (Christ = wisdom of God)? Let's read what Pauö wrote and what is actually written:

Not considering and omitting the part I emphasized in bold print when supposedly quoting the verse, produces a false claim!

So then, HOW is Christ both power and wisdom of God to believers? Does the word "Christ" refer to the person Christ Jesus? does it refer to the gospel message regarding Christ? something else?

Still, this verse does not teach that the "wisdom" (by figure of speech, the woman wisdom) in Prov 8 was Christ as an already alive acting person.

Well, yes, IN GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE Jesus existed BEFORE the foundation of the world in the form of thought, word, idea in God's plan for man's redemption. I've never said anything different!

Now, Jesus was NOT living and acting and doing anything before the foundation of the world nor at creation, because the living acting human being was not manifested and did not live until he was conceived and then born of a woman (cp. Gal 4:4).

?? My question to you was: So then, HOW is Christ both power and wisdom of God to believers? Does the word "Christ" refer to the person Christ Jesus? does it refer to the gospel message regarding Christ? something else?

Well, how do you understand that expression?? I would think you do not just repeat the words and don't know what was actually written?