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What is interesting is that scriptures point to Jesus being the Beginning of Creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of All Creation; (1 Coloassians 1:15)
These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the Creation (Rev 3:14)
In the Beginning was the Word (John 1:1)
To go along with the Greek word monogenes meaning one of a kind or unique, is the Greek work arche which means beginning.
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
HELPS Word-studies
746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").
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The explanation for all passages above can be found in Col 1:15-20, the rest of the passage you isolated from context. Below is the context.
He ([Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
The meaning is that all creation originates with Jesus. Not that Jesus was created. God wasn't created.
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Well... let's visit the scripture if you feel that strong about... notice the end states "all things were created Through him and For him."
An image of George Washingtom on coin is not Gerge Washington but ratrher what it states. an image... anyways the scriptures are CLEAR. "No Man has Seen God at Any Time" (John 1:18)
Who is the image? Jesus or God? The image is talk about Jesus and that is why (image) is in the feminine noun. Jesus was begotten as in being brought forth as with labor pains.
Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. (Proverbs 8:22:23)
When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth, (Proverbs 8:24-25)
Now apply... He ([Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
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The Proverbs passages are unrelated.
Your discussion could be reasonable, but it directly contradicts the passage I included. The discussion must be rejected.
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Oh but there is so much more.... so now you don't believe Jesus is Firstborn of All Creation?
Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the Sons of Men. (Proverbs 8:30-31)
Have you ever read Matthew 11:19 ?
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@BroRando posted:
Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. (Proverbs 8:22:23)
According to the first three verses of Proverbs 8, the entire chapter is about and from wisdom. On what basis do you claim that the testimony offered therein is about/from Jesus?
Paul characterizes Christ as "the power of God and the wisdom of God" "to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Corinthians 1.24), but earlier in the chapter Paul describes the "wisdom of God" as a "mystery not of this age or of the rulers of this age," (1 Corinthians 1.6), a wisdom which, had people known it, they would not have crucified Jesus (1 Corinthians 1.8). It seems clear to me that Paul doesn't assert that Jesus is the "wisdom of God" in a manner consistent with the speaker of Proverbs 8. In addition, in Luke 11.49 Jesus himself quotes what he calls "the wisdom of God," which in my view makes it unlikely that he sees himself as that entity.
Hence, my question.
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Even when Jesus referred to himself as wisdom, they did not understand him. Since George was agreeable that Jesus was begotten which means 'brought forth" I share those scripture with him to no available. It seems that he would rather belive the word of those seeking to kill Jesus than than to listen to his own testimony about himself.
Yahweh created me, the first of his ways, before his acts of old. From eternity, I was set up from the first, from the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths, I was brought forth, (Proverbs 8: 22-23)
These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the Creation (Rev 3:14)
He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of All Creation; (1 Coloassians 1:15)
In the Beginning was the Word (John 1:1)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a man who is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.” (Matthew 11:19)
Wisdom has built her house; she has hewn her seven pillars. (Proverbs 9:1)
John, to the seven churches in Asia:a grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and released us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power ⌊forever and ever⌋. Amen. (Revelation 1:4-6)
Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up!” (John 2:19)
She has slaughtered her slaughtering, mixed her wine, and also set her table. She has sent her servant girls,a she calls upon the wings of the high places of town, “Whoever is simple, let him turn here.” As for the one who lacks ⌊sense⌋, she says to him, “Come, eat with my bread; drink with the wine I have mixed.
Jesus disciples were average and ordinary... Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were astonished, and recognized them, that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13)
So the officers came to the chief priests and Pharisees. And they said to them, “⌊Why⌋ did you not bring him?” The officers replied, “Never has a man spoken like this!” Then the Pharisees replied to them, “You have not also been deceived, have you? ⌊None⌋ of the rulers or of the Pharisees have believed in him, have they? But this crowd who does not know the law is accursed!” Nicodemus, the one who came to him previously—who was one of them—said to them, Our law does not condemn a man unless it first hears from him and knows what he is doing, does it? (John 7:45-51)
Then Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves! (John 6:53)
For he who finds me is he who finds life, and he obtains favor from Yahweh. But he who misses me injures himself. All those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)
Post edited by Brother Rando on -
@BroRando posted:
Even when Jesus referred to himself as wisdom, they did not understand him. Since George was agreeable that Jesus was begotten which means 'brought forth" I share those scripture with him to no available. It seems that he would rather belive the word of those seeking to kill Jesus than than to listen to his own testimony about himself.
Please cite the verse(s) in which Jesus refers to himself as wisdom. Proverbs 8 is among the sources you cite in your reply to my question, but Proverbs 8 is the chapter I asked you about. So I ask my question again:
According to the first three verses of Proverbs 8, the entire chapter is about and from wisdom. On what basis do you claim that the testimony offered therein is about/from Jesus?
Paul characterizes Christ as "the power of God and the wisdom of God" "to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Corinthians 1.24), but earlier in the chapter Paul describes the "wisdom of God" as a "mystery not of this age or of the rulers of this age," (1 Corinthians 1.6), a wisdom which, had people known it, they would not have crucified Jesus (1 Corinthians 1.8). It seems clear to me that Paul doesn't assert that Jesus is the "wisdom of God" in a manner consistent with the speaker of Proverbs 8. In addition, in Luke 11.49 Jesus himself quotes what he calls "the wisdom of God," which in my view makes it unlikely that he sees himself as that entity.
Hence, my question.
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“The firstborn of all creation” (Col 1:15) and “the beginning/beginner of the creation of God” (Rev 3:14) is Jesus.
The NT affirms repeatedly that Jesus is God, that he exists forever, and that he was incarnated as human being “when the fullness of the time came” (Gal 4:4). Jesus is described as the creator and the sustainer of the entire creation. Although a number of texts emphasize that God has created all things (e.g Acts 4:24; 14:15; 17:24, 26; Rom 1:25; 1 Pet 4:19.). Crucial passages stress that Jesus is the Creator.
Jesus' disciples plainly tell us who Jesus is, namely the Creator-God.
- John 1:3: “All things came into being through Him [the Logos who is God], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
- Col 1:15–16: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.”
- Heb 1:2, 10: “In these last days [God] has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.” “And, you, Lord [referring to Jesus], in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands".
- In Rev 3:14, “Beginning” (arche) must be understood in the active sense of originator.
- In Rev 21:6, the same term is applied to God the Father. He is “the beginning and the end.”
- In Rev 22:13, Jesus is “the beginning and the end.” Arche is also found in Col 1:18, referring to Christ.
All of these passages show that Jesus is God (John 1:1–3; Col 2:9; Heb 1:5–12). Here's the plain Word, again! CM
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All of these passages show that Jesus is God (John 1:1–3; Col 2:9; Heb 1:5–12). Here's the plain Word, again! CM
No .... none of them shows that Jesus is God. It is only a particular interpretation which claims that they do, but such interpretation does not even maintain the textual evidence (e.g. John 1:1-3 is about WORD, but not about an individual living being).
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For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Yahweh created me, the first of his ways, before his acts of old. From eternity, I was set up from the first, from the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths, I was brought forth, (Proverbs 8: 22-23)
These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the Creation (Rev 3:14)
He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of All Creation; (1 Coloassians 1:15)
In the Beginning was the Word (John 1:1)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a man who is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.” (Matthew 11:19)
Wisdom has built her house; she has hewn her seven pillars. (Proverbs 9:1)
John, to the seven churches in Asia:a grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and released us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power ⌊forever and ever⌋. Amen. (Revelation 1:4-6)
Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up!” (John 2:19)
These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the Creation (Rev 3:14) This verse was changed by the LEB translation by removing Beginning to falsely read originator. Here's the Greek: it reads, "the Beginning of Creation of God" (Rev 3:14 Greek)
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Paul characterizes Christ as "the power of God and the wisdom of God" "to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Corinthians 1.24), but earlier in the chapter Paul describes the "wisdom of God" as a "mystery not of this age or of the rulers of this age," (1 Corinthians 1.6), a wisdom which, had people known it, they would not have crucified Jesus (1 Corinthians 1.8).
Rearrange you order to gain the understanding.
In the chapter Paul describes the "wisdom of God" as a "mystery not of this age or of the rulers of this age," (1 Corinthians 1.6), a wisdom which, had people known it, they would not have crucified Jesus (1 Corinthians 1.8).
Paul characterizes Christ as "the power of God and the wisdom of God" "to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Corinthians 1.24),
The Apostle Paul also gives witness about the ego'eimi . "For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve," (Acts 27:23)
Wisdom, Image, Grace, Deity, Beginning, Creation, are all feminine nouns describing who? Jesus Christ, notice how Jesus decribe himself here:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. (Matthew 23:37) A Hen Gathering Her Chicks
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@BroRando posted:
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Yahweh created me, the first of his ways, before his acts of old. From eternity, I was set up from the first, from the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths, I was brought forth, (Proverbs 8: 22-23)
As @byGeorge has demonstrated, the phrase "only-begotten" in John 3.16 does not mean "made;" it means unique. But even if it meant created, the challenge presented by my question, but not met by your pairing the verse with two verses from Proverbs 8, is the basis on which you claim the verses in Proverbs 8 apply to Jesus. The opening verses of Proverbs 8 make clear that the chapter's address will come from wisdom. How does Jesus' identity as God's "only-begotten Son" demonstrate that he is the one who speaks in Proverbs 8?
These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the Creation (Rev 3:14)
This verse is about and from Jesus, who calls himself the "beginning" of creation. He doesn't call himself wisdom. In my view, you connect two passages that reference the dawn of creation without showing the basis for the connection.
That you and I were both at the same Super Bowl, say, doesn't necessarily mean we sat together, saw each other, or were even ever physically close to each other. And it certainly doesn't mean that we ARE each other.
He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of All Creation; (1 Coloassians 1:15)
Here Christ is called "the image of the invisible God," a description not offered by or of wisdom in Proverbs 8.
In the Beginning was the Word (John 1:1)
The "Word" in John 1.1 is the "logos," God's plan or idea for creation, a role wisdom does not claim for itself in Proverbs 8.
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a man who is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.” (Matthew 11:19)
The concluding sentence of Matthew 11.19 responds to false characterizations critics have offered about Jesus AND John the Baptist (Matthew 11.18). Is it your contention that Proverbs 8 ALSO refers to John the Baptist?
Wisdom has built her house; she has hewn her seven pillars. (Proverbs 9:1)
John, to the seven churches in Asia:a grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and released us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power ⌊forever and ever⌋. Amen. (Revelation 1:4-6)
Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up!” (John 2:19)
Now to demonstrate the connection between Jesus and Proverbs 8 you quote from Proverbs 9 and Revelation 1, none of whose verses support your claim. "Seven pillars" = "seven churches" = Jesus? "Firstborn of the dead" = wisdom in Proverbs 8? The connections you assert between these verses and Proverbs 8 are arbitrary and not supported by the texts.
These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the Creation (Rev 3:14) This verse was changed by the LEB translation by removing Beginning to falsely read originator. Here's the Greek: it reads, "the Beginning of Creation of God" (Rev 3:14 Greek)
When it comes to original languages, I am at the mercy of my Logos resources, a quick review of which lends support to your suggested translation, but does not comment on your "falsely read" claim.
Your claim was that Jesus "referred to himself as wisdom." In none of the verses you cited in response to my previous post does Jesus refer to himself as wisdom. So again I ask you to cite the verse(s) in which Jesus refers to himself as wisdom.
Paul characterizes Christ as "the power of God and the wisdom of God" "to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Corinthians 1.24),
As I noted in my previous post, earlier in the same chapter Paul describes the "wisdom of God" as a "mystery not of this age or of the rulers of this age," (1 Corinthians 1.6), a wisdom which, had people known it, they would not have crucified Jesus (1 Corinthians 1.8), a description that makes no suggestion that it refers to Jesus or any other person.
The Apostle Paul also gives witness about the ego'eimi . "For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve," (Acts 27:23)
Paul's words to the ship's crew in Acts 27 have nothing to do with an "I AM" reference to God. In Acts 27.23 Paul refers to God and, via the phrase "whose I am," claims to be God's child/possession. In essence, Paul says, "I am one of God's own." The verse has nothing to do with Jesus and/or wisdom, which of course are the subjects of our current exchange.
Wisdom, Image, Grace, Deity, Beginning, Creation, are all feminine nouns describing who? Jesus Christ, notice how Jesus decribe himself here:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. (Matthew 23:37) A Hen Gathering Her Chicks
Another totally arbitrary connection. Since Jesus used a female chicken to describe his concern for Jerusalem, you claim a series of other feminine nouns must refer to him.
- Jesus didn't say he WAS a hen (which would be more supportive of your claim that he referred to himself AS wisdom). In something of a simile, he said his concern for Jerusalem could be expressed by thinking about the way a hen would want to gather her chicks. Your leap from this verse to the conclusion, therefore, Jesus must be wisdom! is not at all supported.
- Jesus is NOT "describing himself," as you claim. He's describing his passion and concern for the people of Jerusalem.
- There is no indication whatsoever in the Matthew 23 text that Jesus means his use of such imagery to imply that he considers himself to be wisdom.
- With due respect, @BroRando, this purported and completely unsubstantiated connection reflects very poor exegesis.
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If you look up the meaning of "Beginning" and Beleive that Jesus is preeimnent then no explaination is neccassary.
The Apostle Paul also gives witness about the ego'eimi . "For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve," (Acts 27:23)
Paul's words to the ship's crew in Acts 27 have nothing to do with an "I AM" reference to God. In Acts 27.23 Paul refers to God and, via the phrase "whose I am," claims to be God's child/possession. In essence, Paul says, "I am one of God's own." The verse has nothing to do with Jesus and/or wisdom, which of course are the subjects of our current exchange.
Paul used ego'eimi specifcally in the scripture. To claim he never did is a theoloical error. (Acts 27:23 Greek)
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@BroRando posted:
If you look up the meaning of "Beginning" and Beleive that Jesus is preeimnent then no explaination is neccassary.
In my view, neither whether a Greek word in John 3.16 means "beginning" or whether Jesus is "preeminent" is relevant to your contention that Proverbs 8 is about Jesus. So yes, an explanation IS necessary and I ask my question again: The opening verses of Proverbs 8 make clear that the chapter's address will come from wisdom. How does Jesus' identity as God's "only-begotten Son" demonstrate that he is the one who speaks in Proverbs 8?
Paul used ego'eimi specifcally in the scripture. To claim he never did is a theoloical error. (Acts 27:23 Greek)
I made no claim that the words "ego'eimi" are not in Acts 27.23; obviously they're there. I claimed that in the verse, they refer to Paul, not to God. In the verse, Paul uses those words to declare himself to be God's possession. His claim is basically this: "I serve the God to whom I belong." The verse has NOTHING to do with Jesus or wisdom.
Please show IN THE TEXT that the words "ego'eimi" in Acts 27.23 refer to Jesus and/or wisdom, as you have claimed, rather than to Paul himself, as I have claimed.
Your post's lack of response to any of the other questions I asked or comments I made in my previous post is telling. I'll leave it to you and other CD readers to identify the all the items you chose not to address... except this one, which I offer again, I think for the third time: Your claim was that Jesus "referred to himself as wisdom." In none of the verses you've cited does Jesus refer to himself as wisdom. Please cite the verse(s) in which Jesus refers to himself as wisdom.
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Yes... and I gave you the scripture.
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a heavy drinker, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ And yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”
How did God make the earth?
Role of Wisdom in Creation and Society Lexham English Bible (LEB)
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Yahweh in Wisdom founded the earth;
he established the heavens in understanding.
20
With his knowledge, depths broke open,
and clouds dropped dew.
21
My child, may they[a] not escape from your sight;[b]
may you keep sound wisdom and prudence.
But out of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who has been made unto us Wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
Seek Wisdom for hidden treasures. Jehovah founded the earth in Wisdom. He solidly established the heavens in discernment. (Proverbs 3:19)
Look and read the Warning... "For the one finding me will find life, And he receives approval from Jehovah. But the one who ignores me harms himself, And those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)
Read Proverbs 8:35-36 LEB....
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@BroRando posted":
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a heavy drinker, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ And yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.
As I noted in a previous post, the wisdom reference in Matthew 11.19 follows two clearly parallel references, one to the Son of Man, yes, but also, in Matthew 11.18, to John. I'll ask my question about this wisdom reference again: Is it your contention that Proverbs 8 ALSO refers to John the Baptist?
In addition, note that...
- In the Matthew 11 scene, Jesus makes no direct reference to himself as being wisdom
- He uses a feminine pronoun ("HER deeds") which could easily have misled hearers had he wanted them to think he was wisdom.
- In context, Jesus tells the crowd that the wisdom displayed in both his and John's deeds vindicates them of others' charges that they are either possessed (John) or a glutton and a drunk (Jesus). The wisdom reference here is NOT a reference to himself personally, but rather to the character of his and John's actions (deeds).
19 Yahweh in Wisdom founded the earth; he established the heavens in understanding.
The verses from Proverbs 3 is a call for readers to embrace wisdom, understanding, and knowledge in their lives. It is NOT a reference to a person, but rather to a quality of character. (Throughout the OT, wisdom is not about a person, but rather about a way of life - discerning, understanding, and then living the right way... God's way. Conduct a simple search for "wisdom" in Proverbs for dozens of examples.)
But out of Him, you are in Christ Jesus, who has been made unto us Wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
In context, the verses you cite from 1 Corinthians 1 celebrate the inversion of fortunes common in Christianity, I think.
- 1 Cor 1.18: The cross is "foolishness" to the perishing, but the power of God to those being saved
- 1 Cor 1.19: God will confound the wisdom of the wise and the intelligence of the intelligence
- 1 Cor 1.20: God has made the "wisdom of this world" foolish
- 1 Cor 1.21: The wisdom of the world doesn't know God, but God CAN be known, through the "foolishness of preaching"
- 1 Cor 1.23: Paul preaches Christ crucified - stumbling to the Jews; foolishness to the Gentiles
- ETC...
- OUR wisdom is not the wisdom of the world, but rather in Christ Jesus, who essentially is the embodiment of wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption
The text doesn't say Jesus IS wisdom. And it CERTAINLY doesn't say Jesus referred to himself as wisdom, as was your claim. It says our wisdom as believers is different from the wisdom of the world. Ours is embodied in the "foolishness" of a cross and the one who died on it.
Seek Wisdom for hidden treasures. Jehovah founded the earth in Wisdom. He solidly established the heavens in discernment. (Proverbs 3:19)
Look and read the Warning... "For the one finding me will find life, And he receives approval from Jehovah. But the one who ignores me harms himself, And those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)
The verses from Proverbs give voice to wisdom, a common occurrence in the Old Testament's "wisdom literature." There is NO indication in the texts or anywhere else in the Bible that the wisdom who speaks in these chapters is meant to be an actual person.
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You stated...
- He uses a feminine pronoun ("HER deeds") which could easily have misled hearers had he wanted them to think he was wisdom.
It was a quote from Jesus Chrsit... Yes or No?
Then again,he stated...
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to hert—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it
After they did not recognize him... 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’
The truth doesn't change... "For the one finding me will find life, And he receives approval from Jehovah. But the one who ignores me harms himself, And those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)
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@BroRando posted:
It was a quote from Jesus Chrsit... Yes or No?
Yes, it was - one that doesn't say what you claimed it said. In the quotation, Jesus neither refers to himself as wisdom, nor does he claim to be wisdom personified. Rather, he claims that his and John the Baptist's actions expressed wisdom, which exonerated them from the accusations listed in the passage.
Because YET AGAIN you have chosen not to address (at least) one of my questions, I ask it again: In parallel references found in the Matthew 11 scene you cited, Jesus speaks of himself (as the Son of Man - Matthew 11.19) BUT ALSO John the Baptist (Matthew 11.18). As a response to BOTH men's actions, Jesus says "wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." SO, is it your contention that Proverbs 8 ALSO refers to John the Baptist? Is he ALSO "wisdom personified"?
Then again,he stated...
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to hert—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it
I made a reference to the femininity of the pronoun when you were claiming Jesus referred to himself as wisdom. You have since amended your claim to say Jesus is "wisdom personified."
Jesus' reference to a hen has no bearing as to whether Proverbs 8 refers to Jesus (which is the issue of our exchange!) He's simply conveying the intensity of his desire to gather together the people of Jerusalem.
After they did not recognize him... 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’
The truth doesn't change... "For the one finding me will find life, And he receives approval from Jehovah. But the one who ignores me harms himself, And those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)
The Luke 19 passage (it would be really helpful were you to give a fuller citation than just verse numbers) and the Proverbs passage have nothing in common other than they reside in the same Bible. Neither passage supports your claim that Jesus referred to himself as wisdom (or "wisdom personified").
I again leave it to you and other CD readers to identify the on-topic observations and comments regarding your central contentions in my previous post to which you chose not to respond.
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Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her — how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it
Again, not recognizing and acknowledging the use of a figure of speech (in this case the figure Simile -- "AS (the way) a hen ...") causes false ideas about a number of aspects interpreted into the words of Jesus.
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According to your flawed reasoning and denial of the words of Jesus at Matthew 23:37, you evidently don't beleive any of the following scriptures are Jesus Christ? You are sadly misinformed.
simile noun
sim·i·le | \ ˈsi-mə-(ˌ)lē \
Definition of simile
: a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses)
Revelation 1:13
and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed in a garment that reached down to the feet and wearing a golden sash around his chest.
Revelation 14:14
Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
Daniel 7:13
“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One.
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If you don't beleive in the words of jesus Christ... then remove them. Doesn't say AS (that is Your Own Interpretation)
I did not add to the text anymore than you did (actually, neither of is did), you used a translation which translates "the way a hen gathers ...", whereas I used a translation "as a hen gathers ...", someone else might use "like a hen gathers ....". The meaning is the same => Jesus makes a comparison with the picture of a hen gathering her chicks (linguistically, such comparison with the use of "like, as, way in which, etc." are the ise of the figure of speech Simile.
Instead of displaying your ignorance by your "youthful enthusiastic and zealous comment about me possibly not believing the words of Jesus, just concentrate on yourself and improve your linguistic skills and understanding of figures of speech used in the Bible.
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The fact of the Matter.... Jesus did not use... as or like and the Greek translation proves you are the one in error. The officers failed to bring Jesus to the priests and pharisees because they were astonishedof the Wise Sayings of Wisdom.
Then the officers went back to the chief priests and Pharisees, and the latter said to them: “Why did you not bring him in?” The officers replied: “Never has any man spoken like this.” (John 7:45-46)
Proverbs 27:11
Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me.
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According to your flawed reasoning and denial of the words of Jesus at Matthew 23:37, you evidently don't beleive any of the following scriptures are Jesus Christ? You are sadly misinformed.
See my last post and my comment on your ideas about figures of speech used in the Bible. Context determines whether an expression has a literal meaning or whether a figure of speech is utilized for emphasis. From your further comment here, you only confirm what I mentioned above.
Did you read that verses you mentioned from Revelation 1:13, Revelation 14:14 and Daniel 7:13 are part of records of VISIONS and not records of documentary recordings of actual events happening.
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You have throughly missed the mark. Wisdom says, "For he who finds me is he who finds LIFE, and he obtains favor from Yahweh. But he who misses me injures himself. All those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)
Wisdom says, "I was beside him, a master workman, and I was delighting day by day, rejoicing before him always," (Proverbs 8:30)
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the LIFE. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will LIVE," (John 11:25)
Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said: “Why are you thinking wicked things in your hearts? For instance, which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? However, in order for you to know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins—” then he said to the paralytic: “Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go to your home.” (Matthew 9:4-6)
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Wisdom says, "I was beside him, a master workman, and I was delighting day by day, rejoicing before him always," (Proverbs 8:30)
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the LIFE. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will LIVE," (John 11:25)
What kind of Scripture "plastering" is that? The result of devastating lack or neglect of context and careful reading?
Sticking isolated verses together may make for colorful (and to some eyes, impressive) "patchwork theology", while causing errors in many cases.
A lack of simply understanding and recognizing the difference between straight literal use of language and use of figures of speech will prohibit people from gaining a correct understanding.
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Sticking isolated verses together may make for colorful (and to some eyes, impressive) "patchwork theology",
Noteworthy.
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Very easy and simple... even a child can gain understanding. Who are are the ones that have No Understanding? Read (Daniel 12:10)
Wisdom says, "For he who finds me is he who finds LIFE, and he obtains favor from Yahweh. But he who misses me injures himself. All those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the LIFE. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will LIVE," (John 11:25)
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