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  • Wisdom says, "For he who finds me is he who finds LIFE, and he obtains favor from Yahweh. But he who misses me injures himself.  All those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)

    Indeed ... those who find wisdom from God will find life. The fools injure themselves. This has been true long before the time of Christ,

     Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the LIFE. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will LIVE," (John 11:25)

    Indeed ... those who believe in Christ will have eternal life.

    Just don't patch up topically unrelated verses into a non-fitting patchwork theology ... just because a certain word or expression is used in both places.

  • Wisdom says, "For he who finds ME is he who finds LIFE, and he obtains favor from Yahweh. But he who misses ME injures himself.  All those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)

     Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the LIFE. The one who believes in ME, even if he dies, will LIVE," (John 11:25)


    Both scriptures pertain to to the same Personal Pronoun, ME. Not we or us... If not you are claiming that Wisdom is God by stating (Indeed ... those who find wisdom from God will find life. The fools injure themselves. This has been true long before the time of Christ,)

    Then you also deny Jesus pre-human existence. (Proverbs 8) explain his pre-human exisitence and deity. But you are like a blind man searching for a light in order to SEE. Then again. Proverbs 8:22 shows your theology is in error. Since Wisdom states she was Created. And if she is the First of God's Way's then all the other feminine nouns all come together.

    He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of All Creation; (1 Coloassians 1:15)

    These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the Beginning of the Creation (Rev 3:14)

     In the Beginning was the Word (John 1:1)


    To go along with the Greek word monogenes meaning one of a kind or unique, is the Greek work arche which means beginning.


    Strong's Concordance

    arché: beginning, origin

    Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: arché

    Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')

    Definition: beginning, origin

    Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

    HELPS Word-studies

    746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").


    Strong's Concordance

    ktisis: creation (the act or the product)

    Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: ktisis

    Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)

    Definition: creation (the act or the product)

    Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; Always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

    HELPS Word-studies

    Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo).

    Proverbs 8:22 All Day Long.... 😁

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675
    edited October 2021

    @BroRando posted:

    Both scriptures pertain to to the same Personal Pronoun, ME. Not we or us... If not you are claiming that Wisdom is God by stating (Indeed ... those who find wisdom from God will find life. The fools injure themselves. This has been true long before the time of Christ,)

    I agree that the personal pronoun "me" appears in both the Proverbs 8 and John 11 verses. But according to Logos Bible Software, the personal pronoun "me" ALSO appears in 3,108 OTHER LEB Bible verses.

    I also agree that the personal pronoun "me" appears along with the word "life" in both cited passages. But according to Logos Bible Software, the personal pronoun "me" ALSO appears along with the word "life" in 83 OTHER LEB Bible verses.

    So what?

    As for the content of the two verses, and in light of your objection to equating "as" or "like" to "the way," I must note that in John 11 Jesus says those who "believe" in him will "live," whereas in Proverbs 8 wisdom says those who "find" it "obtains favor from Yahweh." Wisdom does NOT say those who "believe" will "live;" its says those who "find" will "obtain favor." If in your view "as" and "like" don't have the same meaning as "the way" in the two texts, SURELY for you "believe" is not the same as "find," and "live" does not equate to "find favor."

    In this matter, in much the same way as I demonstrated in THIS POST earlier in this thread, your exegesis is indefensible.

  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,300
    edited October 2021


    It means a certain death to those who are dumb, mute, and deaf to the truth. The opposite of humility is the stubborn and the proud. That is why Jesus stated with his words of wisdom, "Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 18:3)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @BroRando posted:

    It means a certain death to those who are dumb, mute, and deaf to the truth. The opposite of humility is the stubborn and the proud. That is why Jesus stated with his words of wisdom, "Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 18:3)

    At issue in this current exchange is your connection of texts in Proverbs 8 and John 11, not the eternal prospects of "those who are dumb, mute, and deaf to the truth." I will welcome and respond to any on-topic response you have to my previous post.

  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,300
    edited October 2021

    The personal pronoun (ME) ALWAYS refers to a Person. Not a quality or an entity. You stand corrected. If Jesus wasn't the personification of Wisdom then you could try to make the case that Wisdom is a seperate entity. So those finding ME will find LIFE would have to include Somone else but the truth of the matter... it does not!

    You then would have to correct Jesus... to say US instead of ME at (John 11:25)

    Post edited by Brother Rando on

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675


    @BroRando posted:

    The personal pronoun (ME) ALWAYS refers to a Person. Not a quality or an entity. You stand corrected.

    No, I don't stand corrected.

    Q: According to the text - not our impositions onto the text - who speaks in Proverbs 8?

    A: "Wisdom," not a person (Proverbs 8.1-3). Proverbs 8 clearly presents a personification of a wisdom.


    Q: What ELSE does the book of Proverbs say about "wisdom"?

    A: According to the text:

    • It comes from God's mouth, as do "knowledge and understanding" (Proverbs 2.6).
    • It helps us "understand righteousness and justice and uprightness" (Proverbs 2.9).
    • It, along with understanding, brings happiness (Proverbs 3.13).
    • Its "beginning" is for us to "get wisdom" and to "gain insight" (Proverbs 4.7).
    • In its "way" the writer of Proverbs has "instructed" us, as he has led us "in the path of uprightness."
    • The writer of Proverbs - who is NOT God - calls us to be "attentive" to HIS wisdom and understanding (Proverbs 5.1).
    • We are to say to it, "you are my sister" as we call "insight" our "intimate friend" (Proverbs 7.4).
    • It is found "on the lips of one who has understanding" (Proverbs 10.13).
    • The mouths of "the righteous" bring it forth (Proverbs 10.31).
    • It becomes "known" "even in the midst of fools" (Proverbs 13.33).
    • It is gained by listening to advice and accepting instruction (Proverbs 19.20).

    Those are characteristics of people who are righteous, just, and insightful, not identification of people themselves.


    In addition, personification is used frequently in the Bible:

    • Genesis 4.10: Abel's blood "cries out" to God.
    • Isaiah 55.12: A prediction of mountains and hills that break forth in rejoicing and trees that "clap their hands."
    • Psalm 77.16: Waters see God and tremble.
    • Isaiah 24.23: The moon and the sun are ashamed.

    Those are human actions and responses attributed to non-human things. Proverbs 8 gives human voice to the non-human attribute of wisdom.


    If Jesus wasn't the personification of Wisdom then you could try to make the case that Wisdom is a seperate entity.

    1 Kings 4 reports that God gave Solomon "wisdom...and very great discernment, as well as breadth of understanding as the sand which is on the edge of the seashore" (1 Kings 4.29). The text says Solomon's wisdom was "greater than the wisdom of all the people of the east and more than all the wisdom of Egypt" (1 Kings 4.30.) People came "from all the nations to hear the wisdom of Solomon; from all the kings of the earth who had heard of his wisdom" (1 Kings 4.34). 

    Was Solomon also a personification of wisdom?


    So those finding ME with find LIFE would have to include Somone else but the truth of the matter... it does not!

    I don't know what this means.


    You then would have to correct Jesus... to say US instead of ME at (John 11:25)

    John 11.25 is not about, and in fact, makes no mention of, wisdom, so there's no "US" needed.

  • John 11.25 is not about, and in fact, makes no mention of, wisdom, so there's no "US" needed.

    That because Jesus is Wisdom Personified. Wisdom says, "For he who finds ME is he who finds LIFE, and he obtains favor from Yahweh. But he who misses me injures himself.  All those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)

    The scriptures are about LIFE.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675
    edited October 2021

    @BroRando posted:

    That because Jesus is Wisdom Personified. Wisdom says, "For he who finds ME is he who finds LIFE, and he obtains favor from Yahweh. But he who misses me injures himself.  All those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)

    So, I ask my question again: Given that his wisdom came from God and, according to 1Kings 4, was of enormous magnitude and global renown, was Solomon a personification of wisdom?


    This particular exchange began when I asked you to cite the verse(s) in which Jesus "referred to himself as wisdom." The single text you cited prompted me to ask in three subsequent posts - THIS ONE, THIS ONE, and THIS ONE - whether your contention was that Proverbs 8 ALSO applied to John the Baptist, since Jesus' reference to wisdom in the passage you cited was his defense of his own AND John the Baptist's conduct (Matthew 11.18-19). If you claim the Matthew 11 text connects Jesus to Proverbs 8 BUT NOT John the Baptist, please explain where in the text you find support for your conclusion.

    I've asked that question three previous times without receiving your response. I ask it now a fourth time.

  • You provide an example of patchwork theology of topically unrelated verses which you stick together based on "word study details" which you misapply.

    The personal pronoun (ME) ALWAYS refers to a Person. Not a quality or an entity.

    Of course, the personal pronoun "me" refers to a person "I", just as "him" refers to a "he", etc. BUT, a THING or QUALITY (a non-human characteristic) does NOT become nor is a person, when human attributes are assigned to it by means of a figure of speech - a literary device - called personification. Wisdom is NOT a literal person who can speak.

    Personification unfortunately is often misapplied, when people speak of "a person is a thing or quality personified" ("Jesus is the word in person"; "Mr. so and so is courage personified", etc. ) ... such has actually nothing to do with "personification", as it actually views it backwards. "Mr. soandso exemplifies courage", but it is not "courage is personified in Mr. soandso" / "Mr. soandso is courage personified". When courage is personified, courage is "the person", not "Mr. soandso".

  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,300
    edited October 2021

    Proverbs 8 refers to the Begining of Creation (Colossians 1:15) The two feminie nouns refer to Jesus Christ.

    Strong's Concordance

    arché: beginning, origin

    Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: arché

    Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')

    Definition: beginning, origin

    Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

    HELPS Word-studies

    746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

    Therfore you reject that Jesus Christ is Preeminent. 746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent"). Compare Proverbs 8:22

    From eternity, I was set up from the first,  from the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths, I was brought forth,  when there were no springs of abounding water. Before mountains had been shaped, before hills, I was brought forth. (Proverbs 8:23-25)

    You asked me for proof that Wisdom can be spoekn of in the masculine sense. So I gave you the scripture which reads, "I was beside him, a master workman, and I was delighting day by day," (Proverbs 8:30) You then made the false claim that it was God that came beside Wisdom as a master workman. And I said No , it is Wisdom speaking. (Proverbs 8:22-30) In the Begining was the Word (John 1)


    Strong's Concordance

    ktisis: creation (the act or the product)

    Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: ktisis

    Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)

    Definition: creation (the act or the product)

    Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; Always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

    HELPS Word-studies

    Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo)


    Jesus it the Firstborn of All What? Firstborn of All CREATION, some translations say CREATURES. (Colassians 1:15Always of Divine Work which leads us back to (Proverbs 8:22-30) Creation bring us to the word Deity... another feminine noun that descibes Christ.


    Wisdom - Begining - Creation - leads to the Deity of Christ. (Proverbs 8:31) Points to humanity. The Word became Flesh (John 1:14) FLESH is another feminine noun. Who became flesh?

    Strong's Concordance

    sarx: flesh

    Original Word: σάρξ, σαρκός, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: sarx

    Phonetic Spelling: (sarx)

    Definition: flesh

    Usage: flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.


    Strong's Concordance

    theotés: deity

    Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: theotés

    Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)

    Definition: deity

    Usage: deity, Godhead.


    Strong's Concordance

    theos: God, a god

    Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine

    Transliteration: theos

    Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)

    Definition: God, a god

    Usage: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)


  • One can say the same thing about Grace. Therfore, do you reject being saved by Grace? After all Jesus Christ is Grace Personified.

    Strong's Concordance

    charis: grace, kindness

    Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: charis

    Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)

    Definition: grace, kindness

    Usage: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

    HELPS Word-studies

    Cognate: 5485 xáris (another feminine noun from xar-, "favor, disposed to, inclinedfavorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").


    For by Grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;---

    For by Jesus Christ you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Proverbs 8 refers to the Begining of Creation (Colossians 1:15) The two feminie nouns refer to Jesus Christ.

    You have fallen victim to a manner of "word study" which is largely misapplied and leads to error.

    Prov 8 states that already at the beginning of creation wisdom was used to bring it about ... God did not create stupidly, did He? No, He created wisely.

    Your "conclusion" about two feminine nouns refer to Jesus is the type of false word study procedure fantasy and has no biblical basis.

    One can say the same thing about Grace. Therfore, do you reject being saved by Grace?

    More non-coherent logic founded on lack of understanding of basic linguistics, language rules and usage.

    After all Jesus Christ is Grace Personified.

    Where does the Biblical text speak about "Jesus is Grace personified"? See my earlier post about "personification" and how people misunderstand it and get things backwards.

    For by Jesus Christ you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    Yes .. ...so where is a figure of speech "personification" used in this text passage??

  • I already gave you the scripture thst shows Jesus Chrsit is Grace Personified. 😁

    For by Grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;---

    For by Jesus Christ you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

    The reason you reject God's gift is because you do not exercising faith in God's only-begotten Son. Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    Brethren,

    The more important focus of Proverbs 8 should refer to Christ’s installation as Creator and not His being created. A wide semantic range of terms and an intertextual study indicate this.

    Arians interpreted Proverbs 8:22–23 as support for Christ being created. It’s unfortunate, Arius believed that only the Father was absolute, unchanging, eternal, and unbegottenHis interpretation of Proverbs 8:22 is incorrect. He concluded that Jesus was begotten of the Father, created out of nothing (ex nihilo), far back in eternity. He taught that before Christ’s creation, God was not the Father but a solitary God. After the Father created Him, Christ gradually, over time, became God. Wow! What an imagination!

    The early church fathers misinterpreted Proverbs 8:22. Without saying, Monarchianism and Arianism failed to do justice to the Trinity. Proverbs 8:22 is the biblical root passage claimed to support the subordination of Son and Spirit to the Father. For example:

    • Justin Martyr used the text to show that the Word (Christ) was “begotten of the Father” (and was the first to do so).
    • Irenaeus used the text to state that Wisdom (Spirit) was “created” by the Father.
    • The Son was “begotten,” and the Spirit was “created.”
    • Tertullian -- saw Christ (as Word and Wisdom) was “created,” or “formed,” by the Father.
    • Origen said this text means Christ was “created” by the Father.
    • Arius believed the text supported the creation of Christ.

     Note: In each of these, the early Fathers, there is a subordination of the Son or Spirit to the Father, and begotten seems to be a synonym for created.

     

    In my view, they probably meant well, but sincerely WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!


    SOURCES:

    • Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1989), 1:227 (61–62).
    • Roger E. Olson and Christopher A. Hall, The Trinity (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2002), 22.
    •  Irenaeus, Against Heresies, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1:488 (20.3).
    • Tertullian, Against Praxeas, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3:601 (7).
    • Origen, De Principiis, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 4:246 (1.2.1).


    Here is why they were so wrong-headed; the English translations indicate the problem.

    • “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work” (ESV; emphasis added).
    • Other versions use “possessed me” (NASB, KJV, NKJV; emphasis added), or “formed” me (Goodspeed; emphasis added), or “created” me (NEB, RSV; emphasis added) or “brought me forth” (NIV; emphasis added).
    • Possessed” could indicate something other than creation. But the Hebrew Old Testament uses qānâ, which can mean “create,” and the Greek Old Testament (LXX) uses ktizō, which can mean “made.

    Some took this as green light as a solid linguistic basis for their interpretation. What looked like the right way, they failed to acknowledge the words in a broader perspective. For example:

    • There is a wide semantic range for the Hebrew word qānâ, and “create” is ONLY ONE of several options.
    • Even an intertextual study of Scripture or canonical hermeneutic (bringing all pertinent Scriptures to aid the interpretation) should have signaled something to them. They should have realized the equality of the Father, Son, and Spirit, and thus to question their choice of “create” as the appropriate translation of the Hebrew word qānâ in Proverbs 8:22.

    SOURCE: 

    • Izak Cornelius/Raymond C. Van Leeuwen, “qnh,” in New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1997), 3:941.


    The answer to the problem has a simple resolution:

    • Context, the first rule of interpretation, is fundamentally overlooked.
    • Proverbs 8:23 -- holds the key to a correct interpretation. It gives a clue to interpreting “create” or “made” in verse22 before.

    Proverbs 8:23 in the Hebrew Bible speaks of Wisdom being:

    • Established” (NASB, Heb. nāsak)
    • Set up” (RSV)
    • Inaugurated/ordained” (AMP), or
    • Appointed” (NIV 1984)

    Watch this, rather than: 

    • Possessed” (KJV, NKJV)
    • Formed” (NIV), or “created” (NEB).

    The word nāsak is translated as “installed” in Psalm 2:6 (NIV):

    • I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill.

    This more comprehensive semantic range is compatible with the biblical presentation of a self-existent, eternal Son of God rather than the language of birth or beginning.

    So, in some, the context of Proverbs 8 is about creation. It was, in part, the installation of Christ as Creator. This turns the Arian interpretation on its head, for Proverbs 8:22–23 is about Christ’s being installed as Creator and not being created.

    Let’s keep studying. There is more understanding to be had. CM

  • Bill_Coley
    Bill_Coley Posts: 2,675

    @BroRando posted:

    I already gave you the scripture thst shows Jesus Chrsit is Grace Personified. 😁

    For by Grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;---

    For by Jesus Christ you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    For accuracy's sake, I note there is no Bible verse that reads, "For by Jesus Christ you are saved through faith...." To create that sequence of words you have substituted the name "Jesus Christ" for the word "grace" in the original, apparently in your belief that Jesus Christ IS grace - a conclusion analogous to and as exegetically suspect as your assertion that Jesus IS wisdom.

    While it it true that one text (Ephesians 2.8; again I remind you that it is helpful to other CD readers to identify the texts you employ in your posts) and another says God "gave" God's only son, and hence, both grace and God's only son are "gifts," it is NOT necessarily true the two "gifts" are the same thing or person. In this case, one gift is grace and the other is God's only son. No verse says or intimates that one IS the other.

    Is Jesus the personification of grace? I don't think so. I believe he is the product of grace - God's grace. It is THROUGH Jesus that grace, forgiveness, and righteousness (Romans 5.15-21), eternal life (Romans 6.23), and reconciliation with God (2 Corinthians 5.18) are mediated to humanity. Jesus the conduit of God's grace, the one through whom God's grace is expressed, but Jesus is not grace itself.

  • I already gave you the scripture thst shows Jesus Chrsit is Grace Personified. 😁

    For by Grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;---

    Nothing there about anything of "grace personified"

    For by Jesus Christ you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    ? why did you change word order here to come up with a statement not found in the Bible ?

    The reason you reject God's gift is because you do not exercising faith in God's only-begotten Son. Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

    How do you come up with such totally false ideas about me ??

  • The more important focus of Proverbs 8 should refer to Christ’s installation as Creator and not His being created. A wide semantic range of terms and an intertextual study indicate this.

    Your wide semantic range and fancy non-scripture ideas produces the problems ... underlying is the seeming urge of wanting to make and install Jesus as Creator ... something which NOT stated in Scripture, and something contradicting statements in Scripture that the ONE YHWH God ALONE -- that ONE singular God Whom Jesus called his (and also our) Father -- without any assistance brought about the creation and is thus the sole, singular CREATOR.

    All the rest of your fancy theological sources only support that wishful erroneous desire to actually demote that ONE Who is God by elevating His Son Jesus to be the Creator.

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Wolfgang said:

    All the rest of your fancy theological sources only support that wishful erroneous desire to actually demote that ONE Who is God by elevating His Son Jesus to be the Creator.

    @Wolfgang ,

    It seems that you’re snuggly in bed with the early Church Fathers when it comes to Christ being “created” over the plain reading of the Bible. What you call “fancy theological sources” is their calling card of blatant heresy! You, sir, must do more than dismiss sober-thinking, Scripture, and the more comprehensive semantic range when it comes to Proverbs 8. As a man of letters, words, and languages, you MUST allow the text to breathe. You must open your mind wide and permit the Spirit to show you that Proverbs 8 is about creation and a part of it, the installation of Christ as Creator.

    Mr. Wolfgang, Hebrews (1:2) confirms a significant New Testament theme found in places such as Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3: Christ is Creator and is God. John 1 especially makes this connection that all that was made was made through the Word (Christ); thus, He is Creator. At the same time, that Word is declared not only to have been with God (Theos) but also “was”—the Greek tense gives a continuous, ongoing sense of “was”—God (Theos).

    In Isaiah 40, creation is what distinguishes God from the idol. God creates; the idol is made (Isa. 40: 18–28). Perhaps, in another thread, a closer look a Hebrews 1 would undoubtedly make clearer Christ as Creator. In meanwhile, accept John sees Christ’s role in creation as revealing His full divinityCM

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2021

    It seems that you’re snuggly in bed with the early Church Fathers when it comes to Christ being “created” over the plain reading of the Bible.

    Jer 10:16; 51:19 Isa 44:24 ... the plain reading of the Bible tells that GOD - whom Jesus called his Father - ALONE is the Creator.

    What you call “fancy theological sources” is their calling card of blatant heresy!

    Exactly .... do you know that according to official RCC dogma, protestant and other non-RCC churches are actually "heretics" and adherents to "heresy"?

    You, sir, must do more than dismiss sober-thinking, Scripture, and the more comprehensive semantic range when it comes to Proverbs 8. 

    How about reading and understanding what is actually written in Prov 8 instead of reading what church dogma adherent folks' ideas about what they make of it in order to produce real heretic dogma?

    As a man of letters, words, and languages, you MUST allow the text to breathe.

    Which is exactly what I am doing ... whereas you allow church dogma theology breathing down on the text to hide its truth in misty foggy ideas.

    You must open your mind wide and permit the Spirit to show you that Proverbs 8 is about creation and a part of it, the installation of Christ as Creator.

    NO ... Scripture demands that we closely watch and be attentive rather than open your mind wide as you suggest. Open it to Scripture ... and not to falsely so claimed "Spirit given interpretation", especially when such "spirit" ideas contradict the text.

    YES, Prov 8 is about WISDOM, not about creation or installing Christ as Creator. Christ is not even mentioned, nor is wisdom called or described as the Creator. Rather, the text mentions that the Creator - GOD - created in the begining in wisdom (in other words by wise design and not a haphazard big bang etc)

    Mr. Wolfgang, Hebrews (1:2) confirms a significant New Testament theme found in places such as Colossians 1:16 and John 1:3: Christ is Creator and is God. John 1 especially makes this connection that all that was made was made through the Word (Christ); thus, He is Creator. At the same time, that Word is declared not only to have been with God (Theos) but also “was”—the Greek tense gives a continuous, ongoing sense of “was”—God (Theos).

    Nowhere do these scriptures say that "the Word" or "Christ Jesus" was the Creator ... please, read accurately and take your theology colored glasses off when reading.

    In Isaiah 40, creation is what distinguishes God from the idol. God creates; the idol is made (Isa. 40: 18–28). Perhaps, in another thread, a closer look a Hebrews 1 would undoubtedly make clearer Christ as Creator. In meanwhile, accept John sees Christ’s role in creation as revealing His full divinityCM

    See above .... what does your reference to "God creates, the idol is made" have to do with the topic here? God created ... at a time when Christ existed in God's foreknowledge but not as a living acting or doing anything individual ... 1Pe 1:20 ("For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you" - NASB)

  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,300
    edited October 2021

    Christ is never referred as the Creator. The Bible clearly states,  "Have you not known, or have you not heard? Yahweh [is] the God of eternity, [the] creator [of] the ends of the earth! He is not faint, and he does not grow weary! There is no searching his understanding. (Isaiah 40:28)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Brother Rando
    Brother Rando Posts: 1,300
    edited October 2021


    Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24)

    1 Cor 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will confound.

    For he who finds me is he who finds life, and he obtains favor from Yahweh. But he who misses me injures himself. All those who hate me love death.” (Proverbs 8:35-36)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24)

    Is this true? Is there such generalization in 1Cor 1:24 made and (Christ = wisdom of God)? Let's read what Pauö wrote and what is actually written:

    24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    Not considering and omitting the part I emphasized in bold print when supposedly quoting the verse, produces a false claim!

  • Correct.... especially what you emphasized in bold print. 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    Those who are not called deny Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. Many are called but few chosen... (Matthew 22:14)

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • Correct.... especially what you emphasized in bold print. 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    So then, HOW is Christ both power and wisdom of God to believers? Does the word "Christ" refer to the person Christ Jesus? does it refer to the gospel message regarding Christ? something else?

    Still, this verse does not teach that the "wisdom" (by figure of speech, the woman wisdom) in Prov 8 was Christ as an already alive acting person.

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Wolfgang said:

    See above .... what does your reference to "God creates, the idol is made" have to do with the topic here? God created ... at a time when Christ existed in God's foreknowledge but not as a living acting or doing anything individual ... 1Pe 1:20 ("For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you" - NASB)

    @Wolfgang,

    1 Peter 1:20 tells of the plan made for the Son of God to come to earth in human format to redeem it tells us two things:

    1. Christians are redeemed.
    2. We have been bought with a price, a very high price: the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:19). 
    3. We are called to be holy in all of our conduct, because God, who called, is holy. Christians need to live in conscious awareness of the coming judgment.

    Peter emphasizes that the death of Jesus was not an accident of history but something established before the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20).

    Note two key words in the text:

    1. Foreknowledge
    • More than simple prior awareness, foreknowledge involves God’s active involvement in events and is causative, as in Acts 2:23; it is thus synonymous with planning or choosing (as translated by the NIV at 1 Pet. 1:20); 1 Pet. 1:20; S. ch. 16, Salvation.

    2. The foundation of the world (cf. Matt. 23:35b; Luke 11:50; John 17:5, 24) is essentially “from all eternity” (Michaels:62) or “from the beginning of time.” This perspective concerning an eternal design of God is widely represented in the NT (Rom. 16:25f.; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:26; Titus 1:2).

    Jesus Is BEFORE . Give Him His due. CM


    Source:


  • Note two key words in the text:

    1. Foreknowledge More than simple prior awareness, foreknowledge involves God’s active involvement in events and is causative, as in ; it is thus synonymous with (as translated by the NIV at ); ; ch. 16, Salvation.

    2. The foundation of the world (cf. Matt. 23:35b; Luke 11:50; John 17:5, 24) is essentially “from all eternity” (Michaels:62) or “from the beginning of time.” This perspective concerning an eternal design of God is widely represented in the NT (Rom. 16:25f.; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:26; Titus 1:2).

    Jesus Is BEFORE . Give Him His due. CM

    Well, yes, IN GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE Jesus existed BEFORE the foundation of the world in the form of thought, word, idea in God's plan for man's redemption. I've never said anything different!

    Now, Jesus was NOT living and acting and doing anything before the foundation of the world nor at creation, because the living acting human being was not manifested and did not live until he was conceived and then born of a woman (cp. Gal 4:4).

  • It means what the scripture states as you yourself highlighted.

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

  • @Wolfgang Correct.... especially what you emphasized in bold print. 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    @BroRando It means what the scripture states as you yourself highlighted.

    ?? My question to you was: So then, HOW is Christ both power and wisdom of God to believers? Does the word "Christ" refer to the person Christ Jesus? does it refer to the gospel message regarding Christ? something else?

    Well, how do you understand that expression?? I would think you do not just repeat the words and don't know what was actually written?

  • It means to put on the mind of Christ. For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:16)

    25  Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men.e26  For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way,f not many powerful, not many of noble birth,g 27  but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame;h 28  and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,i 29  so that no one might boast in the sight of God. 30  But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousnessj and sanctificationk and release by ransom,l 31  so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.”m

    Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)

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