The right to disagree with the translations

What right have you to disagree with the translations produced by "experts"? You have every right! Consider the facts: All the modern translations(and all the ancient ones for that matter) have been produced either by committees working against time deadlines or by individuals who can't possibly know the whole Bible so well in the original that they produce flawless renderings at every point. ... (page 40)

Moreover, in the modern business of Bible publishing, the more "different" a translation is the more risk there is that it won't sell. Thus there is a pressure on translators, committees, publishers, etc., to keep renderings conservative in meaning in meaning., even though, happily, usually update in idiomatic language. Finally, most people hate to go out on a limb with a translation in print. Many translations problems are matters of ambiguity: There is more than one way to construe the original. But space limitations do not permit translators to offer an explanation every time they might wish to render something from the original in a truly new way. So they almost always err on the side of caution. As a result, all modern translation tend, albeit with perfectly good intentions, to be overly "safe" and traditional. In the working of a translation committee, the lone genius is usually outvoted by the cautious majority. every so often you might actually produce a better translation than others because you can invest much more time exegeting you passage than the individuals or committees were able to because of the speed at which they were required to work. (page 41)

Stuart, Douglas. Old Testament Exegesis page 40 & 41. Westminster John Knox Press. LOUISVILLE WJK LONDON & LEIDEN.

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Comments

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    I believe as Proverbs says, there is safety in a multitude of counselors.

  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 401
    edited January 25

    Growing up most of the multitude of counselors I had told me that Isaiah 53 spoke of the nation of Israel rather the Messiah. And, most understood or render the 2 Palms in such way that it did not sound Messianic at all.

    However, having said the above I do understand your point Dave and also I am a fan of the Byzantine/Majority text of the NT as it represents the text that Churches and Communities of Christians have been using throughout history.

    Post edited by Mitchell on
  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    Here's the catch. You need to be in the right group. Why trust those Jesus condemned most for not understanding the scriptures?

  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 401

    What, if one is born, fated, or predestined not to be in the right group? How, then would such a one know that Jesus supposedly condemned their group if they were in the so-called wrong group and (either did not have access to the NT) had not read the NT just as many Christian have not read the Buddhist sutras? In fact, such a one might think that Jesus is either just another name for Zeus or is somehow related to Zeus. By, what criteria would he/she decide if he/she were in the wrong group?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    I believe God rescues his elect from cults...so to speak. That's why some Jews followed Jesus while most did not.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    Dave, can you name any denomination that you do not think is a cult?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @GaoLu said:
    Dave, can you name any denomination that you do not think is a cult?

    I think any denomination that rejects the Trinity Doctrine or the Deity of Christ Doctrine is a cult as defined by:

    Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions by Larry A. Nichols • George A. Mather • Alvin J. Schmidt

    Or; Unmasking the Cults by Allen Gomes

    Or: Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    Dave, can you name any denomination that you do not think is a cult?

    I think any denomination that rejects the Trinity Doctrine or the Deity of Christ Doctrine is a cult as defined by:

    Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions by Larry A. Nichols • George A. Mather • Alvin J. Schmidt
    Or; Unmasking the Cults by Allen Gomes
    Or: Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin

    And here the real problem has been revealed: Scripture is not really the measure for truth and faith ... men's dogmas, creeds, traditions and books have replaced the Bible.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    The word Cult is an OT term used primarily of male and female temple prostitutes. But just as these worshipped Baal and other pagan gods (demons), the word illustrates worshipping false images of Christ.

    I merely offer three widely accepted references who I believe define the cults of Christendom.

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    Dave, can you name any denomination that you do not think is a cult?

    I think any denomination that rejects the Trinity Doctrine or the Deity of Christ Doctrine is a cult as defined by:

    Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions by Larry A. Nichols • George A. Mather • Alvin J. Schmidt
    Or; Unmasking the Cults by Allen Gomes
    Or: Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin

    And here the real problem has been revealed: Scripture is not really the measure for truth and faith ... men's dogmas, creeds, traditions and books have replaced the Bible.

    At first reading, I was inclined to agree, but all Dave really said is if you reject what the Bible says you belong to a cult.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    Dave, can you name any denomination that you do not think is a cult?

    I think any denomination that rejects the Trinity Doctrine or the Deity of Christ Doctrine is a cult as defined by:

    Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions by Larry A. Nichols • George A. Mather • Alvin J. Schmidt

    Or; Unmasking the Cults by Allen Gomes

    Or: Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin

    So will you answer the question?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    And here the real problem has been revealed: Scripture is not really the measure for truth and faith ... men's dogmas, creeds, traditions and books have replaced the Bible.

    At first reading, I was inclined to agree, but all Dave really said is if you reject what the Bible says you belong to a cult.

    No, Dave made dogmas, creeds the measure by which to determine whether someone belongs to a cult ...

    Actually, since Trinity dogma followers reject what the Bible says and even admit and declare that they follow the Trinity dogma established at much later church councils, would such then make them to be followers of a cult?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @GaoLu said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    Dave, can you name any denomination that you do not think is a cult?

    I think any denomination that rejects the Trinity Doctrine or the Deity of Christ Doctrine is a cult as defined by:

    Encyclopedic Dictionary of Cults, Sects, and World Religions by Larry A. Nichols • George A. Mather • Alvin J. Schmidt

    Or; Unmasking the Cults by Allen Gomes

    Or: Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin

    So will you answer the question?

    I believe God's people find themselves in many denominations that have conflicting stances on many things. But this does not make them a cult.

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @Wolfgang said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    And here the real problem has been revealed: Scripture is not really the measure for truth and faith ... men's dogmas, creeds, traditions and books have replaced the Bible.

    At first reading, I was inclined to agree, but all Dave really said is if you reject what the Bible says you belong to a cult.

    No, Dave made dogmas, creeds the measure by which to determine whether someone belongs to a cult ...

    Actually, since Trinity dogma followers reject what the Bible says and even admit and declare that they follow the Trinity dogma established at much later church councils, would such then make them to be followers of a cult?

    Actually Trinity adherents only affirm what Scripture says Wolfgang.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260
    edited January 27

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    Actually Trinity adherents only affirm what Scripture says Wolfgang.

    Why then do they talk about "God the Son" when the Bible does NOT know such and always speaks of Jesus as a man who is the only begotten Son of God?
    From what I see Trinity adherents post and claim, they do NOT affirm what Scripture says ... even though, of course, they think and claim that they do, and - for whatever reason - do not notice where they flat out contradict what Scripture says, even though it is pointed out to them

    Post edited by Wolfgang on
  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    I believe God's people find themselves in many denominations that have conflicting stances on many things. But this does not make them a cult.

    Thanks. I guess you will not answer the question. I accept that.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @GaoLu said:

    I believe God's people find themselves in many denominations that have conflicting stances on many things. But this does not make them a cult.

    Thanks. I guess you will not answer the question. I accept that.

    I cannot go beyond what Christendom in general considers to be a cult.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    I cannot go beyond what Christendom in general considers to be a cult.

    I presume (I have to do that with most of what you say because you seldom just say a thing clearly) that you mean that all churches which "Christendom" in general does not consider a cult is a true church of which you could be a part and with whom you could fellowship. That should be quite a few.

    Can you name one?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @GaoLu said:

    I cannot go beyond what Christendom in general considers to be a cult.

    I presume (I have to do that with most of what you say because you seldom just say a thing clearly) that you mean that all churches which "Christendom" in general does not consider a cult is a true church of which you could be a part and with whom you could fellowship. That should be quite a few.

    Can you name one?

    Paul admonishes us not to follow men but Christ only. So I do not prefer one man made denomination above another as this would add to the division.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    Paul admonishes us not to follow men but Christ only. So I do not prefer one man made denomination above another as this would add to the division.

    Owell. I guess you either cannot name a group you can associate with or that you do not think is a cult, or you refuse. I am willing to drop that matter as it seems clear enough. You can go on if you want.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @GaoLu said:

    Paul admonishes us not to follow men but Christ only. So I do not prefer one man made denomination above another as this would add to the division.

    Owell. I guess you either cannot name a group you can associate with or that you do not think is a cult, or you refuse. I am willing to drop that matter as it seems clear enough. You can go on if you want.

    If I mention any group I prefer, it will only tarnish their image to some. If I do not mention any group above another, I'm more in line with Paul's admonition for us not to say we are of Calvin, Wesley, Simons, or the plethora of others.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    But Dave, I am asking you only for a single group anywhere that you do NOT consider a cult. That would surely be an honor. I don't think you can name one but won't admit it.

    My understanding from your previous rather prolific posts on the matter is that you don't go to church anywhere because no one is good enough. All are corrupt. So, Dave is a one-man-band.

    Please correct my misunderstandings, but I think that confessing this matters and has colored your theology and posts here with big red warning marker pens. If you refuse to answer, so be it.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @GaoLu said:
    But Dave, I am asking you only for a single group anywhere that you do NOT consider a cult. That would surely be an honor. I don't think you can name one but won't admit it.

    My understanding from your previous rather prolific posts on the matter is that you don't go to church anywhere because no one is good enough. All are corrupt. So, Dave is a one-man-band.

    Please correct my misunderstandings, but I think that confessing this matters and has colored your theology and posts here with big red warning marker pens. If you refuse to answer, so be it.

    There are too many to list that I do not think are cults. But I believe any group that rejects the ecumenical creeds are cults. I use the three standard works mentioned earlier as documentation.

  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 401

    Gao Lu asked which group do you accept not which do you reject as a cult. and I too am curious which group do you accept?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174
    edited January 29

    @Mitchell said:
    Gao Lu asked which group do you accept not which do you reject as a cult. and I too am curious which group do you accept?

    As I said, there are too many to list. In fear of omitting some I decline from listing any. I mentioned three generally accepted works that identify cults as any who reject the trinity and deity of Christ doctrines as spelled out in the Ecumenical Creeds.

    Post edited by Dave_L on
  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 401

    Roman Catholic and Orthodox congregations accept the creeds or at least use them in worship services.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    This is why I don't consider them cults. But all man made church organizations suffer entropy.

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @Wolfgang said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    Actually Trinity adherents only affirm what Scripture says Wolfgang.

    Why then do they talk about "God the Son" when the Bible does NOT know such and always speaks of Jesus as a man who is the only begotten Son of God?
    From what I see Trinity adherents post and claim, they do NOT affirm what Scripture says ... even though, of course, they think and claim that they do, and - for whatever reason - do not notice where they flat out contradict what Scripture says, even though it is pointed out to them

    Actually, we have been over this time and time again and have shown definitively that Jesus is also God. They are the same being. They are the same God.

    You can't wrap your head around it because you think with only human understanding and don't take God at his word.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    Actually Trinity adherents only affirm what Scripture says Wolfgang.

    Why then do they talk about "God the Son" when the Bible does NOT know such and always speaks of Jesus as a man who is the only begotten Son of God?
    From what I see Trinity adherents post and claim, they do NOT affirm what Scripture says ... even though, of course, they think and claim that they do, and - for whatever reason - do not notice where they flat out contradict what Scripture says, even though it is pointed out to them

    Actually, we have been over this time and time again and have shown definitively that Jesus is also God. They are the same being. They are the same God.

    This does NOT answer my question and is nothing but a repetition of the very point that is being questioned ...
    Seems to me that you are saying those Trinity proposers are smarter and have more knowledge about what was written than the inspired writers had who wrote ... or why else do they make such non-biblical claims that Jesus is "God the Son" and do so flat out contradicting what the Bible says?

    You can't wrap your head around it because you think with only human understanding and don't take God at his word.

    But Trinity adherents like you can wrap your head around because you have more than a human understanding and you (falsely think that you) take God at his Word??

    Eh, perhaps I ought to be thankful for Trinity dogmatizers since they know what God somehow wasn't able to inspire the original writers?

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    WHEN IT COMEs to the original writers of Scriptures, God inspires and God reveals.

    In view of the OP, anyone in a freedom loving country can disagree with a translation, but does s/he has the proper knowledge and wisdom to do so with spiritual understanding in view of biblical intertextuality? Any old mule can kick down a barn, but it takes planning, knowledge, wisdom, and cooperation to build one. CM

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