Was Luther anti-Semitic?

C Mc

@Mitchell said:
A few more views toward on answer to the question asked in the OP:

The site called Rational Wiki take on Luther's book:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

The Tragedy of Marthin Luther's Anti-Semitism
https://michaelrydelnik.org/tragedy-martin-luthers-anti-semitism/

German Composer: 'Luther's views on Jews are Outrageous'
http://slippedisc.com/2015/08/german-composer-luthers-views-on-jews-are-outrageous/

Thank you, Mitchell, for putting flesh on the bones of this OP. You have shared substantive resources. You are a blessing to CD. I was becoming weary of Luther and his antisemitism. We are to celebrate his accomplishments and not his life. He was a liberator and yet, an oppressor. Aren't we all the same, in our Christian journey, to some degree, until we reach perfection (return of Jesus)? CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
Wolfgang, you're a brilliant man, have you not seen or recall from the pages of history the length of years and voluminous hatred toward the Jews. This is what I am talking about. Tell me, what people-group suffered more than these???

Tell me, WHY they suffered? was it just because other people for no reason opposed innocent Jews? What stories are we told? Does the Bible tell perhaps the key to understanding the matter (cp. such passages as 1Th 2:15-16, and others)?

Take the account of your country alone-- tears, blood, and death. Have you no sympathy or heart for these people?

I have sympathy for innocent people ... but not for those who play games on forever guilt and use it to exploit others for eternity (if they could) ... I have had NOTHING WHATEVER to do with anything against "these people" ... and yet, the Zionist/Jewish modern political rulers of the world hold me - as a German citizen - responsible and want that my government finances them forever more and never forgets what happened to them ...

Wolfgang, a righteous indignation should rise up in you at the recall of the years and acts against these people. Are you willing to stand with Israel in her struggle to survive? Give me straight talk.

A righteous indignation rises in me against all imposters and those who enslave other innocent people under the pretense of "have a right to do so" ...
Now, there are some nice and proper and well meaning and doing people of Jewish religion, just as there are those of other religious affiliations. There are also evil powers behind the scenes whose sole desire is to enslave the rest of the world, and many of the most influential of them are of Zionist/Jewish convictions.

GaoLu

God's wrath on the Jews.

Reminds me....

Years ago I was thinking about taking the Gospel to Asia. I was told by a certain contingency that the Gospel had been taken to those countries and that because they (their ancestors) had allegedly rejected God, that God had rejected them. Thus God's wrath was on the people and for me to take the Gospel to them was to act against the clear will of God.

Shortly after, an Asian Sister who accepted Christ along with most of her household held both my arms, tears running down her round brown cheeks and she said, "Sanks su! (thank you), sanks su! sanks su! You tell my people 'Jesus' and now we know how much God loves us."

Who was right?

Honestly, I never imagined I would see such anti-semitism in a forum like this. Yet somehow, I am not surprised after all.

C Mc

@Wolfgang said:

A righteous indignation rises in me against all imposters and those who enslave other innocent people under the pretense of "have a right to do so" ...
Now, there are some nice and proper and well meaning and doing people of Jewish religion, just as there are those of other religious affiliations. There are also evil powers behind the scenes whose sole desire is to enslave the rest of the world, and many of the most influential of them are of Zionist/Jewish convictions.

Wolfgang,
You seem to be angry over your government making payment to the Jewish people/or Israel?

Are angry with Jews, Judaism, Israel, or their influence around the world? Have you every being Israel? Walks it streets, taste its food, visit the Wall, greet the children, talk with the people, etc.? It will help you get a better understanding of her struggles.

We must break the cycle. Let it start with you, me, etc... We have to begin with our words and language in speaking to and about one another. However, when looking back, hatred for the Jews runs deep and wide. I found not only with Luther but with others-- well-known people. What books reveal history tells no lies.

"Man's inhumanity to man", must be acknowledged and brought to an end. Agree? CM

[Deleted User]

@GaoLu said:
Honestly, I never imagined I would see such anti-semitism in a forum like this. Yet somehow, I am not surprised after all.

who is promoting anti-semitism here? Are some (such as Zionist / Jews) free to do whatever to whoever without anyone having the right to point out their evil doings?
Is the Bible anti-semitic because it clearly states what happened to the Biblical 12 tribes and why, namely as result of their evil and their rejection of YHWH?

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
Are angry with Jews, Judaism, Israel, or their influence around the world? Have you every being Israel? Walks it streets, taste its food, visit the Wall, greet the children, talk with the people, etc.? It will help you get a better understanding of her struggles.

I have read history books of different sides and authors and have observed what is going on and how the majority of people are being duped and lied to by the "official stories" of crooks and criminals in power who pose as if they were doing good ...

We must break the cycle. Let it start with you, me, etc... We have to begin with our words and language in speaking to and about one another. However, when looking back, hatred for the Jews runs deep and wide. I found not only with Luther but with others-- well-known people. What books reveal history tells no lies.

? ? there has been indignation and righteous critical condemnation of many evils in history, just as there have been many false accusations in order to cover up other evil and blame others to "white wash" own evil ...
Take a step back and an objective look at what is actually DONE and what effects the actions have and WHO "benefits" .... it will tell more truth than any and all of the loud mouth propaganda words people are being told.

"Man's inhumanity to man", must be acknowledged and brought to an end. Agree? CM

Are you trying to end the criminals' activities by wanting to make their victims change believe their lies and think that there are no criminals around and that it is the victims' fault to think about the criminal being the criminal?
How twisted is such idea? the reflection of a brainwashed and unable to think mind?

Dave_L

@GaoLu said:
God's wrath on the Jews.

Reminds me....

Years ago I was thinking about taking the Gospel to Asia. I was told by a certain contingency that the Gospel had been taken to those countries and that because they (their ancestors) had allegedly rejected God, that God had rejected them. Thus God's wrath was on the people and for me to take the Gospel to them was to act against the clear will of God.

Shortly after, an Asian Sister who accepted Christ along with most of her household held both my arms, tears running down her round brown cheeks and she said, "Sanks su! (thank you), sanks su! sanks su! You tell my people 'Jesus' and now we know how much God loves us."

Who was right?

Honestly, I never imagined I would see such anti-semitism in a forum like this. Yet somehow, I am not surprised after all.

God holds forth salvation to those who reject him every day. Especially believing Jews whom he will graft back into Israel through Christ. And this for the sake of their fathers.

But the unbelieving, whether Jew or gentile are cursed forever and remain under his wrath.

Dave_L

I think if people would become familiar with the Talmud, especially the older uncensored versions, it would go a long way in explaining the suffering of the Jews.

C Mc

@Wolfgang said:

Are you trying to end the criminals' activities by wanting to make their victims change believe their lies and think that there are no criminals around and that it is the victims' fault to think about the criminal being the criminal?
How twisted is such idea? the reflection of a brainwashed and unable to think mind?

That your perception and projection on me? Your mind seems so made up, can we continue to have this conversation? In short, you don't have to put me down to be heard. CM

GaoLu

Oh CM, get over your "projection" thingy. No one is projecting on you. Everyone uses Big screen OLED these days.

C Mc

@GaoLu said:
Oh CM, get over your "projection" thingy. No one is projecting on you. Everyone uses Big screen OLED these days.

This is an apple.
You can deny it;
You can ignore it;
You can call it a banana, pear, or grape;
You can put it in water;
You can take of picture of it; It is and always will be an apple. CM

GaoLu

Lovely apple! I know what that is!

[Sadly, I have lost my knack for inserting pictures--sometimes, which really cramps my style! ]

dct112685

I'm a little late on this ship, but if I recall, isn't this view based on comments made by Luther as recorded in Table Talk?

If so, a few things to consider:

1. Table Talk was not written or published by Luther. They were dinner conversations as remembered by guests.
2. That being the case, we have no idea if a. those are things Luther said, the way he said them, or the context, b. we don't know the tone of the comments.
3. There are other points related to this, but you get the idea.

Mitchell

I'm a little late on this ship, but if I recall, isn't this view based on comments made by Luther as recorded in Table Talk?

Actually, no rather the book being referred to is, Von den Juden und ihren Lügen not Table Talk.

In English translation you can read the book Luther published in 1543 and decide for your self whether or Luther's comments were written in a spirit of Christ:
https://archive.org/details/TheJewsAndTheirLies1543En1948

Dave_L

@Mitchell said:

I'm a little late on this ship, but if I recall, isn't this view based on comments made by Luther as recorded in Table Talk?

Actually, no rather the book being referred to is, Von den Juden und ihren Lügen not Table Talk.

In English translation you can read the book Luther published in 1543 and decide for your self whether or Luther's comments were written in a spirit of Christ:
https://archive.org/details/TheJewsAndTheirLies1543En1948

I think Luther got his opinions about the Jews from their own writings and attitudes towards the gentiles (goyim). Whom they regard as beasts and animals in the Talmud. I found 18 or so volumes of the Soncino English Talmud freely available on the internet if any would care to pry into their writings.

C Mc

Thanks, Mitchell, for the correction and source. CM

Mitchell

@Dave_L said:
I think Luther got his opinions about the Jews from their own writings and attitudes towards the gentiles (goyim).

One: I do not recall asking where Luther got his ideas from. Rather I asked if Luther's book was written in the spirit of Christ.

Two:
Did, Christ tell us to hate people who disagree with?, Did Christ tell us to burn down their congregations of people hold to other religions? Did Christ tell us to stop other people from own houses? Did Christ tell us to take away the freedom of speech of others who we disagree with? All of these are more Luther spoke of in his writings! Was that a Christian thing to do?

Three: two Luther probably only knew of some ashkenazi Jewish denominations, but probably not of the Sephardic Jews, Yemenite Jews, Mizrahi Jews, the Karadim (who do not accept the Talmud), and so on. Not, every Jewish group accepts and follows the Babylonian Talmud, some accept the Jerusalem Talmud instead, others follow the Mishneh Torah and shulchan Arukh, some reject all Rabbinic traditions and follow only the Tanakh.

Yet, you attempt to speak of the Jews as if they are all in agreement on every issue and share the same ideologies. Yet, the Jews just like the Christians are diverse ethnically, religious, ideology, and so on.

Four Perhaps I am naive or mistaken but I believed that one who claims to be a Christian would heed the words of Christ:

Matthew 5:43-48
Luke 6:27-36

Does Luther's book honor Jesus and follow his words in your opinion?

C Mc

@Mitchell said:

Yet, you attempt to speak of the Jews as if they are all in agreement on every issue and share the same ideologies. Yet, the Jews just like the Christians are diverse ethnically, religious, ideology, and so on.

Mitchell,
A truth too few people comprehend. Thanks,

Given this understanding, one should even be able to narrow down what group of Jews, location, and situation surrounded the period when Luther spoke those words that seem to live in infamy.

Then, there are the circular questions:
1. Are the Jews universal?
2. Words spoken to or about Jews are universally applicable to Jews of all times?
3. Do we need to re-examine anti-semitism, hate speech and "hatters" of Jews?
4. Words spoken against Jews or any ethnic groups are words spoken against all, for all times. Should "hatters" be pitied for they not what they say?

Is there something to this? CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
3. Do we need to re-examine anti-semitism, hate speech and "hatters" of Jews?

I would think all "ANTI-{whoever}" ought to be dealt with equally, rather than making some special "sin" out of "anti-semitism" (not even being really defined and often misapplied), while "anti-{others}" (even done by them who call themselves "Jews") as a minor and permissible matter.

GaoLu

The Jews have had it a good deal more problematic than anyone else on earth. That is the obvious why.

[Deleted User]

@GaoLu said:
The Jews have had it a good deal more problematic than anyone else on earth. That is the obvious why.

Why have the Jews had it more problematic? possibly because of self-inflicted matters? or have they been the sole innocent victims of others having a wrong impression??

See, I would call a crook "a crook" totally independent of where he comes from, what nationality he is, what religion he may have ... equally crooks!!
Why should it not be allowed to point out "Jewish crookery" without then being automatically labelled in the "Christian" / "Western" (that is, sphere under heavy political and financial Israel influence) as the worst of "criminals", namely an "anti-semitic" person? while in reality, in my criticism I did not even comment on any racial aspects but only on "crooked" political/financial/ etc dealings?

Mitchell

@C_M_ said:

Given this understanding, one should even be able to narrow down what group of Jews, location, and situation surrounded the period when Luther spoke those words that seem to live in infamy.

If, people weren't so lazy they could do the research. They could test whether or not Luther's words were rationally objective or emotionally subjective. They could also test and see if Luther's words were of Christ.

The problem lies in the fact that people don't, they look up to Luther (or whoever) as if they were looking at an inspired faultless individual. There is I think a lack of critical thinking skills and maybe apathy.

@C_M_ said:
1. Are the Jews universal?

The Jews are not a monolith any more than Christians are.

2. Words spoken to or about Jews are universally applicable to Jews of all times?

Of, course no individual can speak about any group of people in a way that is universally applicable for all time and I would even question if one could do so for only one period of time. But, the problem remains that some people lack critical thinking skills and naive believe whatever they read as if it had already been provened.

3. Do we need to re-examine anti-semitism, hate speech and "hatters" of Jews?

I think we should put Christians words and actions to the test and see if those words reflect Christ.

4. Words spoken against Jews or any ethnic groups are words spoken against all, for all times. Should "hatters" be pitied for they not what they say?

I think we should seek to understand where xenophobia, prejudice ideologies, racialism, and racism, and ethnic nationalistic ideologies come from or how they start. And, I think we should try to reach out to the haters with the message of Christ, maybe if we did more they would hate less.

Dave_L

@Mitchell said:

@Dave_L said:
I think Luther got his opinions about the Jews from their own writings and attitudes towards the gentiles (goyim).

One: I do not recall asking where Luther got his ideas from. Rather I asked if Luther's book was written in the spirit of Christ.

Two:
Did, Christ tell us to hate people who disagree with?, Did Christ tell us to burn down their congregations of people hold to other religions? Did Christ tell us to stop other people from own houses? Did Christ tell us to take away the freedom of speech of others who we disagree with? All of these are more Luther spoke of in his writings! Was that a Christian thing to do?

Three: two Luther probably only knew of some ashkenazi Jewish denominations, but probably not of the Sephardic Jews, Yemenite Jews, Mizrahi Jews, the Karadim (who do not accept the Talmud), and so on. Not, every Jewish group accepts and follows the Babylonian Talmud, some accept the Jerusalem Talmud instead, others follow the Mishneh Torah and shulchan Arukh, some reject all Rabbinic traditions and follow only the Tanakh.

Yet, you attempt to speak of the Jews as if they are all in agreement on every issue and share the same ideologies. Yet, the Jews just like the Christians are diverse ethnically, religious, ideology, and so on.

Four Perhaps I am naive or mistaken but I believed that one who claims to be a Christian would heed the words of Christ:

Matthew 5:43-48
Luke 6:27-36

Does Luther's book honor Jesus and follow his words in your opinion?

So I ask, were the Jews ever in the "spirit of Christ"? I think fair treatment of both sides is in the spirit of Christ.

Mitchell

@Dave_L said:
So I ask, were the Jews ever in the "spirit of Christ"? I think fair treatment of both sides is in the spirit of Christ.

Some Jews, like for example the very first Christians, early Christian sects, members of the modern Messianic Jewish movement, Hebrew Christians, and עברים קתולים (Hebrew Catholics) follow Messia(Christ) while others have never claimed to follow Christ.

Now, Dave, in being fair it is your turn to answer the yet unanswered questions about Luther (who did claim to follow Christ):

Was Luther's book Von den Juden und ihren Lügen written in the spirit of Christ?

Does Luther's book honor Jesus and follow his words in **Matthew 5:43-48
Luke 6:27-36 in your opinion?**

Bill_Coley

@Mitchell said:

Was Luther's book Von den Juden und ihren Lügen written in the spirit of Christ?

For whatever reason(s) Brian, I did not know about the Luther work to which you linked. Startling. Thank you directing our attention to it.

GaoLu

Here is a concise overview (though filtered by opinion--it is not a primary source)
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Other resources here.

I understand there may be some variances of translation of Luther's work. Wolfgang, do you have any insight on that?

Note also the perspectives in the annotated version provided below at this site.

C Mc

@GaoLu said:
The Jews have had it a good deal more problematic than anyone else on earth. That is the obvious why.

Hold your horses, GaoLu,

Do you want to fact-check your statement for quality and quantity with other ethnic groups?
1. Native Americans-- (broken treaties, reservations, land taken, death & diseases).
2. Africans-- (transported on slaved-ships ("slave-trade) packed like Sardines. One report, approx 35-70 million died on the way. A bit high, you say? Who was counting, with any conscious or cared with any heart?
3. General Idi Amin declared himself president of Uganda. He expelled Uganda’s Asian population, which numbered between 50,000 and 70,000, without the appropriate resources to support them.
4. Apartheid "separateness"-- a system of institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination that existed in South Africa between 1948 and 1994= 21,000 people died. Violent deaths from 1994 to 2000: a total of 174,220 people died violent deaths, from crime-related violence [or related to hate-crime against whites, and especially against the Boers. Ed. between 1994 and the year 2000.
5. African-Americans ("Blacks") -- Slavey; Raped, ill-fed/clothed/housed; lynching; "Jim Crow Laws" (state and local laws that enforced racial segregation in the Southern USA.When slavery ended in USA, it "led to starvation and death for millions of black Americans.
6. Irish-Americans
7. Jews (expulsion around the world from countries); prison camps, "ovens", "gas"-- ?? 6 million deaths (many don't agree on the number).
8. Jewish-Americans
9. German-Americans
10. Angry-white American Men
11. Italian-Americans
12. Japanese-Americans (internment camps)-- See the thread in CD-- "Why I love a country that once betrayed me | George Takei"
13. Cambodian People (under Pol Pot communist Khmer Rouge government-- an estimated 1.5 to 2 million Cambodians died of starvation, execution, disease or overwork).
14. People's Republic of China under Mao Zedong a.k.a. Chairman Mao-- killed 45 million in four years.
15. Palestinian People-- need some time, until two-state solution evolves.
16. Vietnamese People -- estimated deaths total of civilian are 587,000 from the Vietnam War.
17. The Japanese People after the United States dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and the city of Nagasaki, Japan.

This just a sample of "man's inhumanity to man." Enough!!!

So, in conclusion, your "had it a good deal more problematic than anyone else on earth" statement meant deaths or mistreatments? Does it consider all the time people in earth's history? Ask the decedents of these people, which is worst? In light of the facts above your statement needs extreme revising, if not, complete abandonment.

The people of Israel have gone through much, but there are others too. I do warn all nations not to touch a hair on the state of Israel's head because she will defend herself to the death.

Is it the behavior of these people or the evilness of men's hearts, without Christ? Wouldn't you say the need is an acknowledgment, confession and repentance and the embracement of Christ?

"Let there be peace on earth...? CM

Dave_L

@Mitchell said:

@Dave_L said:
So I ask, were the Jews ever in the "spirit of Christ"? I think fair treatment of both sides is in the spirit of Christ.

Some Jews, like for example the very first Christians, early Christian sects, members of the modern Messianic Jewish movement, Hebrew Christians, and עברים קתולים (Hebrew Catholics) follow Messia(Christ) while others have never claimed to follow Christ.

Now, Dave, in being fair it is your turn to answer the yet unanswered questions about Luther (who did claim to follow Christ):

Was Luther's book Von den Juden und ihren Lügen written in the spirit of Christ?

Does Luther's book honor Jesus and follow his words in **Matthew 5:43-48
Luke 6:27-36 in your opinion?**

Is it appropriate for Christians to speak out against injustice and call murderers murderers? Or liars liars? I believe we are never to judge people except by their works or their own writings. Just a cursory reading of the Talmud can justify all of the above.

C Mc

@Mitchell said:

If, people weren't so lazy they could do the research...

Am I to assume you are aware of the person's academic skills and basic research knowledge?

They could test whether or not Luther's words were...emotionally subjective.

Is this a reasonable expectation of an average person?

They could also test and see if Luther's words were of Christ.

This is doable.

The problem lies in the fact that people don't, they look up to Luther (or whoever) as if they were looking at an inspired faultless individual. There is I think a lack of critical thinking skills and maybe apathy.

I agree with the first part. As for the last sentence, could it be also, just choice? When it's all "said and done", it's across between ignorance, arrogance, and indifference. CM

Dave_L

If you ever read Luther's Bondage of the Will in his dialog with Erasmus, Luther is brash and verbally offensive to many. So if we try to isolate his dialog with the Jews and separate it from his dialog with Catholics, we will not understand that it is just the way he is.

But I don't think it is sin to be vulgar. Any more than being sophisticated if your motive is love.