Was Luther anti-Semitic?

C Mc
C Mc Posts: 4,463

A champion and icon of the Reformation, scholar and a denomination after his teachings and name, what do I make of this? How does one explain Luther's anti-Semitic remarks? Was it a moment of weakness or a way of life? Do his anti-semitic remarks leaked into his teaching and ere into the Lutheran Church? What are the Jewish-Lutheran relationships are like today? Luther said of the Jews:

                   Martin Luther - 1543-- Of The Unknowable Name and The Generations of Christ

"But your [God’s] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...

"Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still God must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell..."

"The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be God’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.
Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you..."

"Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good God, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…"

Was he angry? Regardless, how does one explain (or justify) Luther's remarks below? Was he frightened, threatened or just being himself? What was the context? Help me to understand? CM

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Comments

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited March 2018

    I would consider a more objective approach rather than being immediately overtaken in one direction by the term "antisemitic" ....
    For example, what actually is "antisemitic"? Is "antisemitic" far worse than "anti-something else", if so, why?
    Is today's political propaganda misuse of the term "artificial" in order to shut up other opinions that do not agree with the USrael/Zionist empire politics?
    Seems from Luther's comments that he was not the modern day "antisemitic" person, but rather one who based his observations and opinions on what the Jews (the Biblical tribes, as well as those who in his day and time claimed to be Jews) had done or were doing ...

    I would caution to not get trapped into thinking that what many today call "antisemitic" is even really "antisemitic", it may only be "anti-a certain politics" and accusations made against some who call themselves Jews may be correct and should not be dismissed by being labeled "antisemitic", giving the evil doers a blank license to continue their evil

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    The bible is not racist since Paul clearly says God made of one blood all nations. So Luther probably launched his tirades against the Jews as he did the Anabaptists and anyone else he considered a false religion. As far as I remember he welcomed Jewish converts into his fellowship.

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    Luther created serious problems by teaching the doctrine of dual morality. And no doubt this helped in the persecution of the Jews. But I do not think he viewed the Jews as a race. Since scripture clearly teaches there is only one human race. He obviously viewed them as a false religion just as Islam views Christians (not by race) but by religion.

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Mitchell said:
    Martin Luther and antisemitism
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

    Bernard N. Howard , Luther's Jewish Problem (The Gospel Coalition October 19th, 2017)
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/luthers-jewish-problem/

    Thanks, Mitchell, for your contribution in the direction of better understanding. CM

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Wolfgang said:
    I would consider a more objective approach rather than being immediately overtaken in one direction by the term "antisemitic" ....

    Is today's political propaganda misuse of the term "artificial" in order to shut up other opinions that do not agree with the USrael/Zionist empire politics?
    Seems from Luther's comments that he was not the modern day "antisemitic" person, but rather one who based his observations and opinions on what the Jews (the Biblical tribes, as well as those who in his day and time claimed to be Jews) had done or were doing ...

    My Friend, Wolfgang,

    Are you stealthily leading toward giving Luther a pass? I am still reading about my Luther, who started what should continue. His words and attitude towards the Jews are eroding him in my eyes like snow under the warming sun and as a hot knife encounters cold butter. See below the things out of his mouth (heart). Was he the religious Donald J. Trump of his day?

                Martin Luther – 1543--On The Jews and Their Lies
    

    What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way, we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

    First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

    Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason, they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

    Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

    Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

    Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination...

    To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...

    Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...

    Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

    I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children, they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of
    Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

    Tell me, Mr. Wolfgang, are you still inclined to give Luther a pass? Please, tell me, do you think Mussolini a.k.a. “Il Duce” (“the Leader”) and Adolf Hitler, a.k.a. Der Führer (German: “The Leader”) were influenced and encouraged by Luther in general and the above words, in particular? I am hurt!

    Do you suggest I look beyond his faults and see his needs and appreciate his deeds? Talk to me! CM

    SOURCE:
    Translated by Martin H. Bertram, "On The Jews and Their Lies, Luther's Works, Volume 47"; Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971.

  • There seem to be quite many who call themselves "Christian" who worship more "the Jews" than they worship the one true God and His only begotten Son, Jesus.
    They do not even realize that the Biblical 12 tribes of Israel and their "nation" were done away by God in judgment for their rebellion against Him and His Messiah, when their beloved city Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in the events surrounding 70AD.

    Instead, they now hold folks who only by religion (but not by race) claim to be "Jews" and claim to have a right to rule the world (which they don't, they are imposters) in high esteem and elevate them above everyone else in the world, allowing them to commit the worst crimes against humanity while condemning those who criticize such crimes as being "anti-semitic".

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Wolfgang said:
    There seem to be quite many who call themselves "Christian" who worship more "the Jews" than they worship the one true God and His only begotten Son, Jesus.

    Thanks, Wolfgang, for your timely response. I need some clarifications of what you said and didn't say. Are you suggesting I conveyed this "worship more "the Jews" than they worship the one true God and His only begotten Son, Jesus" or others? Notwithstanding, you seem to have a cool reception toward what I shared of my questions and concerns. Am I concluding this correctly? Frankly, do you agree with the statements of Martin Luther?

    They do not even realize that the Biblical 12 tribes of Israel and their "nation" were done away by God in judgment for their rebellion against Him and His Messiah, when their beloved city Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed in the events surrounding 70AD.

    As a nation, but never the Jewish People. Are you saying there are no 12-tribes of Israel? Is this a fact or a prediction? Could they 12-tribes exist, but just scattered? How do you see Israel today? Are you saying she has no meaning, beyond being a nation?

    Instead, they now hold folks who only by religion (but not by race) claim to be "Jews" and claim to have a right to rule the world (which they don't, they are imposters) in high esteem and elevate them above everyone else in the world, allowing them to commit the worst crimes against humanity while condemning those who criticize such crimes as being "anti-semitic".

    What has Israel or the Jewish people done to cause you to draw such a conclusion? Have you bought into a false document (book) of the Jews ruling the world? I don't know the name just now. The Jews have gone through a lot over the years. Why is it that the world seems to hate the Jews? What can the Jews or Israel do to cause you to change your mind about them?

    I can't defend all that Israel does, but as a nation, you've got to be proud of her and how she has survived. She made mistakes. She has a past like most countries, but her will to provide and protect her people will not be compromised for anyone. "Israel bows to no man, only to God!" CM

  • C_M .... open your eyes, and you might see.... it is actually very easy to see.
    The ones who have bought into the Jewish Zionist politics and worldview and have been duped into falsely thinking of "the Jews" as a "special nation / special people/ above all others folks / etc." are those who propagate what you suggest ...
    Keep dreaming ... or else, wake up!

  • Mitchell
    Mitchell Posts: 668

    A few more, a few more views on the question:

    Richard Cohen, Martin Luther hated Jews. Does he deserve a splash of red paint? (The Washington Post) https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/martin-luther-hated-jews-does-he-deserve-a-splash-of-red-paint/2017/10/30/bd011d64-bd9b-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html?utm_term=.1cbc1187fbf3

    Anti-Semitism: Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies"
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/martin-luther-quot-the-jews-and-their-lies-quot

    Bernd Buchner, Martin Luther and the Jews – questions and answers (Luther 2017)
    https://www.luther2017.de/en/wiki/martin-luther-and-the-jews/martin-luther-and-the-jews-questions-and-answers/?ignoreOldBrowserWarning=1/

    Luther's Relationship with the Jews
    http://www.luther.de/en/kontext/juden.html

    Was Martin Luther anti-Semitic? (GOT QUESTIONS?)
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Martin-Luther-anti-semitic.html

  • Why are people all wired up and try to be oh so politically correct and in awe of the term "antisemitic" and never open their mouth when the Zionist/Jewish powers are "anti-everybody else" ???
    Why are US Christians in favor of the ZIONIST empire, here the modern state of Israel) maintains the largest and worst open air concentration camp and even defend their doings as "just and right" ???

  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Posts: 1,368

    Well, for one thing, I happen to know some of them and your description does not at all fit what I know. But then there is much I do not yet know.

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    Can anyone provide anything from Luther showing that he believed the Jews were a Race? In Which case he would be a racist. I know Luther rejected the Jews as a false religion just as many reject Mormons, or JW's.

  • @Dave_L said:
    Can anyone provide anything from Luther showing that he believed the Jews were a Race? In Which case he would be a racist. I know Luther rejected the Jews as a false religion just as many reject Mormons, or JW's.

    He also seems to have held a view of what the Bible in the NT scriptures especially tell about "the Jews" (the religious hierarchy among the Jews) in the Bible lands in Jesus' time ... something which many Christians today seem to want to "smooth out in their politically correct mentality" in order to not be called "racist" and "antisemitic" by today's "Jews". They go as far as calling themselves the "murderers of Jesus", when the book of Acts actually rather clearly points out who was responsible for the murder of Jesus (and it was not the Romans, whose hands were used by those responsible)

  • Mitchell
    Mitchell Posts: 668
    edited March 2018

    @Dave_L said:
    Can anyone provide anything from Luther showing that he believed the Jews were a Race?

    Dave no one on this thread is accusing Luther of being racist (at least I am not aware of it if they are).

    There is, however, a question of if Luther supported defamation and violent action against particular socio-religious communities in his infamous Von den Jüden und iren Lügen. And, I would ask whether Luther was really promoting a Christian worldview in the aforementioned book?

    For more reading check out:
    (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
    (2) https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/on-luther-and-lies

    Some podcast on the subject (one from a Lutheran perspective) can be found here:
    https://issuesetc.org/tag/against-the-jews-and-their-lies/
    https://issuesetc.org/tag/on-the-jews-and-their-lies/

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @Mitchell said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Can anyone provide anything from Luther showing that he believed the Jews were a Race?

    Dave no one on this thread is accusing Luther of being racist (at least I am not aware of it if they are).

    There is, however, a question of if Luther supported defamation and violent action against particular socio-religious communities in his infamous Von den Jüden und iren Lügen. And, I would ask whether Luther was really promoting a Christian worldview in the aforementioned book?

    For more reading check out:
    (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
    (2) https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/on-luther-and-lies

    Some podcast on the subject (one from a Lutheran perspective) can be found here:
    https://issuesetc.org/tag/against-the-jews-and-their-lies/
    https://issuesetc.org/tag/on-the-jews-and-their-lies/

    Thanks for answering this. I'm aware that Luther and Calvin taught the Doctrine of Dual Morality, coupled with the doctrine of the Visible Institutional State Church. And this would tend to violence just as it did when the Catholics of similar feather dominated Europe with violence.

    But I think the persecution would be the same whether it were Anabaptists, Jews, or any others resisting Lutheran or Reformed views.

  • Mitchell
    Mitchell Posts: 668

    @Dave_L said:
    I'm aware that Luther and Calvin taught the Doctrine of Dual Morality, coupled with the doctrine of the Visible Institutional State Church. And this would tend to violence just as it did when the Catholics of similar feather dominated Europe with violence.

    a very astute reply!

    (I don't want to take this thread off of topic, but I am really curious if the "doctrine of dual morality" would have anything to do with some of the current issues like for example Christians varying opinions on gun use. But, maybe I will save that question for another thread.)

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @Mitchell said:

    @Dave_L said:
    I'm aware that Luther and Calvin taught the Doctrine of Dual Morality, coupled with the doctrine of the Visible Institutional State Church. And this would tend to violence just as it did when the Catholics of similar feather dominated Europe with violence.

    a very astute reply!

    (I don't want to take this thread off of topic, but I am really curious if the "doctrine of dual morality" would have anything to do with some of the current issues like for example Christians varying opinions on gun use. But, maybe I will save that question for another thread.)

    I think it plays a part in some circles. But I don't think it is too well known.

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @GaoLu said:

    Well, for one thing, I happen to know some of them and your description does not at all fit what I know. But then there is much I do not yet know.

    This is why you are so wise. CM

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Mitchell said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Can anyone provide anything from Luther showing that he believed the Jews were a Race?

    Dave no one on this thread is accusing Luther of being racist (at least I am not aware of it if they are).

    There is, however, a question of if Luther supported defamation and violent action against particular socio-religious communities in his infamous Von den Jüden und iren Lügen. And, I would ask whether Luther was really promoting a Christian worldview in the aforementioned book?

    For more reading check out:
    (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
    (2) https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/on-luther-and-lies

    Some podcast on the subject (one from a Lutheran perspective) can be found here:
    https://issuesetc.org/tag/against-the-jews-and-their-lies/
    https://issuesetc.org/tag/on-the-jews-and-their-lies/

    Thanks, Mitchell, CD's resident researcher. Blessings. CM

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2018

    I found this short video and transcript that helps bolster the case for Luther. This also reflects what I came to believe about the anti-semitic charges vented against him.

    https://www.ligonier.org/blog/was-martin-luther-guilty-anti-semitism/

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    If Luther can be given a pass, all can be given a pass. Then, can it be said, there is no anti-semitism? Is there an old and new "anti-semitism?" Or is "anti-semitism" a new and recent development to accomplish some hidden end? Thinking out loud. CM

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2018

    @C_M_ said:
    If Luther can be given a pass, all can be given a pass. Then, can it be said, there is no anti-semitism? Is there an old and new "anti-semitism?" Or is "anti-semitism" a new and recent development to accomplish some hidden end? Thinking out loud. CM

    I believe Luther made the Holocaust possible along with the many "Christians" staffing Hitler's armies. But I think Luther's hatred of the Jews or Muslims was centered in Judaism and Islam, and not in those descending from Shem per se.

  • @C_M_ said:
    If Luther can be given a pass, all can be given a pass. Then, can it be said, there is no anti-semitism? Is there an old and new "anti-semitism?" Or is "anti-semitism" a new and recent development to accomplish some hidden end? Thinking out loud. CM

    Is anti-semitism worse than anti-{something else} ?? How anti-{Palestinian} is the Zionist
    Jewish regime in modern state Israel or those Zionist Jewish string pullers in other countries?

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:
    If Luther can be given a pass, all can be given a pass. Then, can it be said, there is no anti-semitism? Is there an old and new "anti-semitism?" Or is "anti-semitism" a new and recent development to accomplish some hidden end? Thinking out loud. CM

    Is anti-semitism worse than anti-{something else} ?? How anti-{Palestinian} is the Zionist
    Jewish regime in modern state Israel or those Zionist Jewish string pullers in other countries?

    I don't have all the answers. "Let there be peace on earth..." CM

  • @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Is anti-semitism worse than anti-{something else} ?? How anti-{Palestinian} is the Zionist
    Jewish regime in modern state Israel or those Zionist Jewish string pullers in other countries?

    I don't have all the answers. "Let there be peace on earth..." CM

    Hmn .... surely, you have an opinion and answer to whether "anti-semitism" is worse than any other "anti-{whatever else}" ? And one would think that you also have a reason for your opinion and answer ?
    Care to make known your answer?

  • Mitchell
    Mitchell Posts: 668
    edited March 2018

    A few more views toward on answer to the question asked in the OP:

    Dr. Hans Wiersma offers his point of view on the issue
    in an article titled "Martin Luther: concerning the Jews"
    https://chosenpeople.com/site/martin-luther-concerning-jews/

    The Christian History Institute: Was Luther anti-Semitic?
    https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/was-luther-anti-semitic

    Alon Goshen-Gottstein, Luther and the Jews - 500 Years Later (Huffington Post 10/27/2017) https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/luther-and-the-jews-500-years-later_us_59f2b654e4b05f0ade1b5645

    Megan Wilson, LUTHER AND THE JEWS
    http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1515&context=honors

    The site called Rational Wiki take on Luther's book:
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

    The Tragedy of Marthin Luther's Anti-Semitism
    https://michaelrydelnik.org/tragedy-martin-luthers-anti-semitism/

    German Composer: 'Luther's views on Jews are Outrageous'
    http://slippedisc.com/2015/08/german-composer-luthers-views-on-jews-are-outrageous/

  • Mitchell
    Mitchell Posts: 668

    Interestingly enough there is even a classroom project on this topic of this thread:

    Classroom Activity: Martin Luther and Hitler's Anti-Semitism
    http://spartacus-educational.com/ExTEU27.htm

    Question 1: Explain the views of Martin Luther expressed in sources 2 and 3.

    Question 2: Use sources 4 and 5 to describe the actions that Martin Luther believed should be taken against Jews in Germany.

    Question 3: How do the authors of sources 6 and 7 explain the reasons why Martin Luther changed his views on the Jews?

    Question 4: Study the speech made by Adolf Hitler in 1924 (source 8). Does the evidence in this unit support his claims?

    Question 5: How does the author of source 9 explain the link between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler?

  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Is anti-semitism worse than anti-{something else} ?? How anti-{Palestinian} is the Zionist
    Jewish regime in modern state Israel or those Zionist Jewish string pullers in other countries?

    I don't have all the answers. "Let there be peace on earth..." CM

    Hmn .... surely, you have an opinion and answer to whether "anti-semitism" is worse than any other "anti-{whatever else}" ? And one would think that you also have a reason for your opinion and answer ?
    Care to make known your answer?

    Wolfgang, you're a brilliant man, have you not seen or recall from the pages of history the length of years and voluminous hatred toward the Jews. This is what I am talking about. Tell me, what people-group suffered more than these??? Take the account of your country alone-- tears, blood, and death. Have you no sympathy or heart for these people?

    Wolfgang, a righteous indignation should rise up in you at the recall of the years and acts against these people. Are you willing to stand with Israel in her struggle to survive? Give me straight talk. CM

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Is anti-semitism worse than anti-{something else} ?? How anti-{Palestinian} is the Zionist
    Jewish regime in modern state Israel or those Zionist Jewish string pullers in other countries?

    I don't have all the answers. "Let there be peace on earth..." CM

    Hmn .... surely, you have an opinion and answer to whether "anti-semitism" is worse than any other "anti-{whatever else}" ? And one would think that you also have a reason for your opinion and answer ?
    Care to make known your answer?

    Wolfgang, you're a brilliant man, have you not seen or recall from the pages of history the length of years and voluminous hatred toward the Jews. This is what I am talking about. Tell me, what people-group suffered more than these??? Take the account of your country alone-- tears, blood, and death. Have you no sympathy or heart for these people?

    Wolfgang, a righteous indignation should rise up in you at the recall of the years and acts against these people. Are you willing to stand with Israel in her struggle to survive? Give me straight talk. CM

    We need to consider God's role in the suffering of the Jews. Paul says:

    “Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (1 Thessalonians 2:15–16)

    My understanding is that "uttermost" = till the end of time.

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