An update on my Bible study group's Christology study

@C Mc

"No, Pages, no mistake. I knew you had spoken directly without any promotion from anyone. You spoke boldly and from the heart. Thank you!

"My statement was to convey that many times there are unknown nuances when speaking on behalf of another without conferring or not having all the facts."

"My remarks were not so much based on Bill’s group or a specific denomination – “The First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)." They are based on his past and recent words/works, in these forums, on Christ, his nature, and divinity." 

"Pages, as a recent active participant, you may or may not have access to them. I currently don’t have them, and not clear how they can be obtained. Based on this past knowledge, in great part, was what prompted my original post in this thread. As reported by Bill, the outcome tilled in favor of his belief and staunched view that Jesus is NOT God."

"Despite the many “sessions,” OT/NT texts, and his supposedly “hidden views,” most of the group has a Godless Jesus. Who is He (Jesus)? From their conclusion, I am not sure. Is Jesus an angel, a man given special powers, a demon, a lunatic, liar, a demagog, or a deceiver? Bill and his group may share their new definition of who Jesus is. Do they still call themselves Christians? Do they look forward to His return?"

"Again, Because of the group’s reported action (voting), the “small-town” phrase was used in the contract to the millions worldwide who believe Jesus is Lord -God!"

"They love Him, believe in Him, trust Him, pray to Him, and look forward to His second coming as promised. In one sense, I was channeling the pain, anger, and disappointment of so many people that a Pastor and church group could conclude that Jesus is NOT God."

"In my view, finite men devaluating (Jesus) God is no minor deal for millions and is equivalent to blasphemy on steroids. This calls for righteous indignation."

"Pages, I greatly respect your directness and honesty. However, I vehemently reject your characterization of my contributions in these forums as superfluous exaggerations."

"Am I not entitled to express my views in these forums freely and passionately?"

"Did I oppose a beloved person, topic, or institution dear to you?"

"Pages, I saved the best for last. You have identified the problem in these forums and why so many denominations exist. How one interprets the Bible is the leading cause of most problems in this world. The Enemy (Satan) is at work to keep us divided and in darkness."

"Why? This reality needs to be explored with serious minds and determination. Has not God spoken in various means, men, and times? We need to listen to God anew through the sources He provided. Has man become too wise or “smart” for God? God “inspired” holy men to write as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. He is still willing and ready to illuminate “darken” minds today."

"We must get back to the Bible! Let us be warned: Inheriting great wealth and being at the correct safe (Source/Bible) and the wrong combination number (method of interpretation); one remains poor and without a Savior. The theme of the Bible is Jesus (God). Let’s get to work and mine God’s special revelation to humanity. CM"

"Has not God spoken in various means, men, and times?"

"Has man become too wise or “smart” for God?"

"God “inspired” holy men to write as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. He is still willing and ready to illuminate “darken” minds today."

"We must get back to the Bible!"

One small quibble: You're quite kind to call FCCEM "Bill Coley's Church," but at least for the time being we remain Jesus' church. 

@Erin_Lee April 1 This to me indicates that the Angels were there shouting for joy when God created the Earth. Also, the bible never explicitly states WHEN angels were created. I know I am being reaching when stating this, but I have always assumed that the creation of Jesus and the Holy spirit would have occurred the same time (maybe before) the angels were created.

@Erin_Lee April 1 Also, our perception of time is different, as confirmed with the following verse:

@Erin_Lee April 1  2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV) States "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"

@Erin_Lee April 1 The only thing I cannot confirm is if in this verse κόσμος (Kosmos) meant the World or the Universe in its context.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus asked:

Who comes (rides) on the clouds ?

@Erin_Lee April 1 I think that it is Jesus that comes down on the clouds

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus asked:

What does the phrase "the Son of Man" mean ?

@Erin_Lee April 1 I have always thought to believe it meant "Human Being", just like Son of Adam. I will be honest, I have not done much deep research until now on the use of the word. A lot of the verses referencing Jesus as "Son of Man" is in the New Testament, specifically the Gospels. I believe that this verbiage was used to show that he was made human.

@Erin_Lee April 1 I believe this was used to indicate that Jesus himself, "Son of God" was made human.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Stated:

Philippians 2:5-11 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.

Who is יהוה Lord Jesus ?

@Erin_Lee April 1 I believe this question threw me off for a minute, mainly because the book of Philippians was written originally in Greek. I was curious why you used a Hebrew translation of the verse instead of Greek?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Said:

Belief idea question: Did τὸν θεόν The Most High God make a mistake in this spoken command to followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus:

πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε (John 14:1 Greek spoken by יֵשׁוּעַ ) ?

Be Ye Believing in The אלהים God, also in Me Be Ye Believing

Why did τὸν θεόν The Most High God command followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus to Be Believing in יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus the same as Be Believing in τὸν θεόν The Most High God ?

@Erin_Lee April 1 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, I would like you hear your insights regarding the meaning behind this verse, as it seems like you and @Bill_Coley have had disagreements with the context behind it (and with the significant amount of posts already on this website, I am afraid it would be more difficult for me to find all of them. Based on this verse, and the context of the chapters before and after, it seems that Jesus is telling his disciples to believe in him (Jesus) as they have already had established faith for God himself.

@Erin_Lee April 1 Later on in the chapter, Jesus says to Thomas in John 14:6-7: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

@Searching May 24 The study was very interesting to me as a former JW. I was a Witness for 4 years, from 1973 to 1977 and I guess I am still one in most of my beliefs if not all. I spent the first 20 years (off and on) after I left trying to prove just one of their main doctrines wrong and never could. I have discussed this subject with a Assembly of God pastors, Baptist pastors, a church of Christ pastor, a pastor who was Baptist until he got "filled" with the Holy Spirit, then he became a Pentecostal pastor and a man that was referred to me as a specialist in showing witnesses the error of their way. They were all nice guys and we had friendly conversations but none of them had a leg to stand on and they knew it. 

For the leader. A psalm of David: Adonai, you have probed me, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I stand up, you discern my inclinations from afar, you scrutinize my daily activities. You are so familiar with all my ways that before I speak even a word, Adonai, you know all about it already. You have hemmed me in both behind and in front and laid your hand on me. Such wonderful knowledge is beyond me, far too high for me to reach. Where can I go to escape your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I climb up to heaven, you are there; if I lie down in Sh’ol, you are there. If I fly away with the wings of the dawn and land beyond the sea, even there your hand would lead me, your right hand would hold me fast. If I say, “Let darkness surround me, let the light around me be night,” even darkness like this is not too dark for you; rather, night is as clear as day, darkness and light are the same. For you fashioned my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I thank you because I am awesomely made, wonderfully; your works are wonders — I know this very well. My bones were not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed. God, how I prize your thoughts! How many of them there are! If I count them, there are more than grains of sand; if I finish the count, I am still with you. God, if only you would kill off the wicked! Men of blood, get away from me! They invoke your name for their crafty schemes; yes, your enemies misuse it. Adonai, how I hate those who hate you! I feel such disgust with those who defy you! I hate them with unlimited hatred! They have become my enemies too. Examine me, God, and know my heart; test me, and know my thoughts. See if there is in me any hurtful way, and lead me along the eternal way.

@Bill_Coley May 24 Faith is personal, which means disputes about it easily become personal. I grieve that reality because whether I agree with a person or not, the faith he or she declares IS his or her faith. I praise God for their faith, even as I invite serious discussion of our differences.

@Searching May 29 I think if we would go back to the 1st century Christians and see what they did, and believed it would look quite different than what we see in the church today. "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father (not 3)

@Bill_Coley June 2 I agree. In my view, there is no doubt that in the main, the first century church had no notion that was Jesus God.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.”

Now those who had been scattered because of the persecution that took place over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, proclaiming the message to no one except Jews alone. But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they came to Antioch, began to speak to the Hellenists also, proclaiming the good news about the יהוה Lord Jesus. And the hand of the יהוה Lord was with them, and a large number who believed turned to the יהוה Lord. And the report came to the attention of the church that was in Jerusalem about them, and they sent out Barnabas as far as Antioch, who, when he arrived and saw the grace of אלהים God, rejoiced and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with devoted hearts, because he was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a large number were added to the Lord. So he departed for Tarsus to look for Saul. And when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. And it happened to them also that they met together for a whole year with the church and taught a large number of people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.

@Searching May 28 It would be interesting to see what you all decided if you were to do a similar study on hell or the immortal soul as you have the trinity.

@Bill_Coley May 29 The afterlife study that our group launched in mid-March will be a journey of comparable magnitude, though not of the same duration. In our first 12 sessions, we've explored the Old Testament conceptions of "heaven" and "Sheol," and just today began a review of the various ways and for what reason(s) people die in the OT, along with God's role in those deaths and whether the texts present afterlife options in addition to Sheol. This part of our adventure will take another eight weeks or so, then we'll move to the New Testament. This study will surely take us well into 2024.

Rejoice always, pray constantly, give thanks in everything; for this is the will of אלהים God for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things; hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the אלהים God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, who also will do this.

Instead of being attacked and mauled by the devil and his demons, I was being rescued by a brilliant, white-bright light.

I could hear myself crying as I was saying, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

Then I became still as I clearly heard His voice say, I AM the Light.

It was beautiful. Oh, it was so beautiful. I could hear the sound of running water. It rang out in song. I could not see the water. I did not have to. The melodious sound that was quenching my soul was already enough.

I cried out, I have been saved. Jesus, You saved me. You saved me. Thank You, Jesus, thank You.

Once again, I fell down with my whole being in complete relief, surrender, and thankfulness.

Jesus had saved me. He saved me out of hell!

It felt as if the beautiful running water of the Light was consuming my whole being. Even though the Light was so brilliantly white, it did not burn me. Instead, it gently embraced me with a gentle, pure, and enduring love. I could hear myself sobbing in grateful awe. I was still only soul and spirit, so I was not physically shedding tears, but my whole being gently sobbed with emotion.

Then something tender and caressing stilled my soul. It was as if the whole porthole of this Light stilled in expectation.

Jesus’ voice rang out, Michele, I love you with an everlasting love. Your sins have been forgiven.

I could not see Jesus, but I knew He was there. I quietly responded with all that was in me, Thank You, Jesus! Thank You, my Lord!

Then the whole porthole of light broke out in a running water melody again, and joy entered me. A joy I had never before felt flooded my soul. Joy is just so much more than happiness. It is happiness mixed with thankfulness, excitement, hope, song, satisfaction and expectation.

Pulford, Michele. Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven (pp. 175-176). Kindle Edition. 

Warning: Below I write exactly what I saw and experienced. There is some graphic detail that some might find too fear invoking or offensive. I am not able to take any of it out as this is the horrific truth of what I was taken into. 

 Fear gripped me. I was begging God to get me out of that evil, burning hellhole when I abruptly came face to face with a crowd of people in agony. I also saw demons. Though I had never seen demons before, but I just knew these things were demons. Likewise, I knew the people were dead people who had not gone to Heaven.

I was intensely grateful for the protection around me that was preventing me from being burned and tortured together with the dead people surrounding me.

The dead people were recognizable as people, yet at the same time they were made of an oozing, gray, jelly-like substance, covered with scaly, rotting matter that was peeling off. It would be too kind to call it skin. The matter oozed as worm-like tentacles underneath gnawed on them.

Horrified, I looked towards what had been their faces. As I looked into their eye sockets, I could see behind the sockets and into their souls. I do not know how I knew, but I could see I was looking into their tortured souls. I will call all the dead people I saw dead-beings. They were definitely dead people, but they were rotting things with live, tormented souls, and this made up their beings.

God, those are dead people there and they don’t have real bodies. They have repugnant, decaying, disgusting, and rotting gray matter covering their bones. And their souls are exposed to those disgusting hideous creatures. This is terrible! This is so cruel.

Michele. They chose this, of their own free will.

Why? Why would they choose this, God? No one would choose this. I knew I had not chosen this and yet I was there.

They chose to believe they did not need my Son — they were good people and did not need Jesus. They said I am a God of love.

I had been one of those people. Shamefully, I recalled the many times I said to God, “I know I have broken my promise to You, God, but I know You understand because You are a God of love.”

I realized how absolutely dishonoring, completely wrong, and ungodly I had been. I had disregarded God’s holiness and taken His love for granted.

I cried out, I’m so sorry, God. I’m so sorry.

God answered, Michele, it is not for me to forgive you, but My Son.

I had not said anything to Jesus. I didn’t think it necessary. Frantic, I asked, Why didn’t anyone come and tell me that? If someone had just come and told me, I would have listened.

I did tell you, Michele. The cross says it all. You just did not want to truly see or hear.

Oh, my God, what have I done? I am sorry, God. I am so sorry. That kept on going through my soul. I had chosen to take my life into my own hands. I had refused to allow Jesus any right to it. I looked around and let out a howl of regret.

I then remembered how I had invited evil and hate willingly into my life on Christmas Eve, and had willingly placed myself under the dominion of hate. I had been given a chance to get out of this grip of evil and hate at the age of sixteen when I had the motorbike accident. Sadly, I had still chosen to cling to my evil ways, enjoying the power it gave me.

God sent people to show me while I lay there in hospital. I chose to treat His way of love and truth with suspicion and reject it as weak. I had even laughed at the pastor and his wife who came to see me and called them Jesus Freaks.

Once again, I cried out in regret. I tried to pull away from the grip of the evil, with the dead- beings and the hideous creatures that were pressing in on me from all sides, but they just seemed to press in more and more until they felt millimeters away.

The dead-beings were screaming out in fear and looking at me with absolute horror. Begging to get out, their pleas were just met with more torment. They screamed out in fear, with absolute horror and hopelessness as they begged to get out. While they looked my way, I do not know if they could see me.

There was no hope in these dead-beings, only fear.

How long are they going to be like that?

For eternity.

As I felt myself being tugged off even further down, deeper into this pit of hell, I started to scream and beg God to get me out.

Pulford, Michele. Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven (pp. 141-143). Kindle Edition. 

And this shall happen: From new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh shall come to bow in worship before me,” says יהוה Yahweh. “And they shall go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

“And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it is better for him if instead a large millstone is placed around his neck and he is thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life crippled than, having two hands, to go into hell — into the unquenchable fire! And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life lame than, having two feet, to be thrown into hell! And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out! It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not extinguished.’ For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt becomes deprived of its salt content, by what can you make it salty? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.