An update on my Bible study group's Christology study
Comments
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So are you telling me that the reason you described what you called my "method of biblical interpretation" as follows. . .
- "pure evil and diabolical"
- akin to "spiritual murder"
- a result of my making myself a "tool of Satan"
- a prelude to our study group's transformation into a "Synagogue of Satan" and the "latest twenty-first century cult"
- an attempt to "dismantle the inspiration of the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures in broad daylight"
- "equivalent to spreading excrement on the name, power, holiness, and sacrifice"
- "madness"
- the work of a "'silver-tongued' peddler of destruction
- a "joke and a spiritual travesty"
. . . was, in the words of your response to @Pages, that you were "channeling the pain, anger, and disappointment of so many people that a Pastor and church group could conclude that Jesus is NOT God," and that "finite men devaluating (Jesus) God is no minor deal for millions and is equivalent to blasphemy on steroids"? And so your characterizations of my "method of biblical interpretation" that I just quoted were simply examples of the "righteous indignation" you believe my "method of biblical interpretation" deserves?
I have every respect in the world for your views about Jesus and God, CM. I celebrate your views and that you are clearly passionate about them. So don't read this post as an objection to your Christology; it's not! I simply want to know on what basis you justify using the specific words and phrases you chose - those quoted above - to characterize what you called my "method of biblical interpretation."
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Hello,
I hope you are all doing well. I am reaching out as a member of @Bill_Coley's Church and actually the most recent member. I am not very tech savvy nor am I a theologian, so I apologize for any errors that I make in my writing. I moved to the Quad Cities roughly a year ago, and have been attending this church for 7 months and my husband and I have been members since Christmas Day.
First, I wanted to give you some of my background. I have been raised in the south in a major metropolitan area and my family and I have been involved in church my entire life. I have mainly be raised serving in the church, as my dad was an associate pastor for a good portion of my life and my mom served in various areas, but mainly some form of kids ministry. Shortly after marrying, my husband and I relocated to Quad Cities due to work and tried to find a church. We decided on First Christian Church of East Moline after attending a similar church while traveling. We were both raised in nondenominational (mainly Baptist-adjacent) churches until now. We have since became close friends with other members of the church and found fellowship with these individuals.
I started attending the study surrounding the question of "is Jesus God?" in November of 2022. I was very much on the tail end of this 3 year long study, I was given all of the study materials so far to utilize in my review. when I initially entered the study, I was already of the mindset that there is a separate distinction between the three members of the trinity. Most of the group was undecisive on the final say, although a few people were in agreement with me. Throughout the rest of our studies, Bill Coley did not answer any questions that may have led to us knowing his answer to the major question. After finishing the study, my conclusion remained the same but I had a better understanding of my beliefs and I understand the other viewpoint more clearly. At the end of the study, Bill shared with us some comments made by @C Mc, Specifically the following
@C Mc Said This is not a study of Christ. This is pure evil and diabolical! To drag innocent people down the gangway to doubt Christ's Divinity is spiritual murder! You're making yourself a tool of Satan. If you don't check yourself, practice Biblical skills and humble yourself by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, this group will be ripened to become a "Synagogue of Satan." You and this so-called Christological Study Group are marinating yourself to morph into the latest Twenty-first Century Cult.
This note made us laugh at first, but it also made us feel hurt that a fellow Christ follower was accusing us of such things without knowing us. I know you stated that your comments were pointed at Bill, not us. But it is hard for me to not feel like it was pointed at anyone that complete studies on Christology
@C_MC Said: Who is He (Jesus)? From their conclusion, I am not sure. Is Jesus an angel, a man given special powers, a demon, a lunatic, liar, a demagog, or a deceiver?
I cannot answer to everyone in the group, but I personally do not see Jesus as any of those things. It is hard for me to correctly articulate my thoughts, but I believe that Jesus is Divine. Multiple verses indicate that Jesus is the Son of God, not God himself. I am going to include the following verses as some of the reasons I came to this decision.
John 5:30: "I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will."
Mark 10:17-18: "As Jesus was starting out on his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good."
John 13:3: "Jesus knew that the Father had given him authority over everything and that he had come from God and would return to God."
These indicate to me that God, the ultimate authority, gave Jesus the power and ability to lay down his life for ours and should be held to very high reverence. Jesus is the pure lamb that was slaughtered for our sins. Romans 8:34 (which I will quote below) also indicates that Jesus is our intercessor.
Romans 8:34: "Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God's right hand, pleading for us."
@C Mc: Bill and his group may share their new definition of who Jesus is. Do they still call themselves Christians?
I do still call myself a Christian. I don't know if you assume our beliefs are so black and white, where we either believe that he is God himself, or we believe Jesus is not the savior, I believe that there is a misunderstanding in language (and it may be because I have not studied the bible in the same way you have. I think our understanding of how God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are truly connected will remain a mystery until Christs return.
@C MC: Do they look forward to His return?
I continue to spread the good news until Jesus Christs' glorious return!
Someone asked about us understanding the original translations of the bible. One of our members has a reference bible and often looks at the translations and I recently purchased an interlinear bible to better understand the original text. I have not officially studied these languages so my interpretations from them are limited.
I cannot speak on behalf of the rest of the groups, but I know a few others that have similar beliefs as me regarding the study of Christology. We don't feel that Bill led us down this path, or swayed us to follow his teaching. The one thing I truly appreciate from this church is that it asks us to seek these questions, as opposed to a pastor that tells me to trust him and doesn't push us to seek for the truth ourselves.
Please ask me any questions and I will do my best to answer them. I may not be as quick to respond as some others in this group, as I work and attend school, but I am happy to answer to the best of my ability.
Sincerely,
E.L.
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Just wanted to take a moment and thank you for writing and sharing this information.
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@Erin_Lee posted:
I am reaching out as a member of @Bill_Coley's Church and actually the most recent member. I am not very tech savvy nor am I a theologian, so I apologize for any errors that I make in my writing.
Welcome to the forums, Erin! And what a debut post! VERY well done.
One small quibble: You're quite kind to call FCCEM "Bill Coley's Church," but at least for the time being we remain Jesus' church. Yes, I'm planning a hostile takeover bid, and when it succeeds I will change the name to BCCEM (Bill Coley's Church East Moline), but according to my legal advisors, until I can force the current leadership out, we have no choice but to say that we're HIS church, not mine.
when I initially entered the study, I was already of the mindset that there is a separate distinction between the three members of the trinity. Most of the group was undecisive on the final say, although a few people were in agreement with me. Throughout the rest of our studies, Bill Coley did not answer any questions that may have led to us knowing his answer to the major question. After finishing the study, my conclusion remained the same but I had a better understanding of my beliefs and I understand the other viewpoint more clearly.
You describe the path I pray that our Bible study participants will pursue: At the journey's launch, claim your views and uncertainties. Then as the study progresses, be open to new learning, some of which may confirm, raise questions about, and/or push back against your views. Finally, exit each study with respect for points of view different from yours, but more confidence in and praise to God for the views you choose to claim.
Multiple verses indicate that Jesus is the Son of God, not God himself. I am going to include the following verses as some of the reasons I came to this decision. . . .
Thanks for providing the textual basis for your conclusion. You two weren't with us when our study group reviewed about 450 New Testament passages on the subject from mid-2019 till the end of 2021, but the texts you cite in your post were certainly among the ones we looked at.
I think our understanding of how God, Jesus and the Holy spirit are truly connected will remain a mystery until Christs return.
Amen to this! The Apostle Paul wrote this to the Christians at Corinth: "Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely (1 Corinthians 13:12, NLT).
The one thing I truly appreciate from this church is that it asks us to seek these questions, as opposed to a pastor that tells me to trust him and doesn't push us to seek for the truth ourselves.
Yes! "Your" views aren't really yours if you get them from me. Now if each of us discovers our views through, among other ways, shared Bible studies, praise God! But each of us is ultimately responsible for our own views. In your post, you clearly accept your responsibility. Great job!
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"No, Pages, no mistake. I knew you had spoken directly without any promotion from anyone. You spoke boldly and from the heart. Thank you!
That is correct.
"My statement was to convey that many times there are unknown nuances when speaking on behalf of another without conferring or not having all the facts."
That certainly can be true; but, with regard to my writing, the above is in error as it was not on "behalf of another" that I spoke.
"My remarks were not so much based on Bill’s group or a specific denomination – “The First Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)." They are based on his past and recent words/works, in these forums, on Christ, his nature, and divinity."
"Pages, as a recent active participant, you may or may not have access to them. I currently don’t have them, and not clear how they can be obtained. Based on this past knowledge, in great part, was what prompted my original post in this thread. As reported by Bill, the outcome tilled in favor of his belief and staunched view that Jesus is NOT God."
I'm very well aware of Bill's theological stance in regard to God and Jesus – one, which I disagree with.
"Despite the many “sessions,” OT/NT texts, and his supposedly “hidden views,” most of the group has a Godless Jesus. Who is He (Jesus)? From their conclusion, I am not sure. Is Jesus an angel, a man given special powers, a demon, a lunatic, liar, a demagog, or a deceiver? Bill and his group may share their new definition of who Jesus is. Do they still call themselves Christians? Do they look forward to His return?"
Well, now you have an opportunity to ask at least one study group participant these questions directly (@Erin_Lee).
"Again, Because of the group’s reported action (voting), the “small-town” phrase was used in the contract to the millions worldwide who believe Jesus is Lord -God!"
That may be; but, as pointed out it is demographically untrue, and directly addresses them – not Bill. By this, would you then also categorize the "millions worldwide" as a big-city metropolitan community when speaking of them?
"They love Him, believe in Him, trust Him, pray to Him, and look forward to His second coming as promised. In one sense, I was channeling the pain, anger, and disappointment of so many people that a Pastor and church group could conclude that Jesus is NOT God."
This, "I was channeling the pain, anger, and disappointment...", is a subjective and emotional attempt used for excusing something; though, I understand the overall sentiment and concern expressed above.
"In my view, finite men devaluating (Jesus) God is no minor deal for millions and is equivalent to blasphemy on steroids. This calls for righteous indignation."
I agree this can be seen as "no minor deal"; however, there is such a thing as freedom of religion and the right to worship as one pleases under the US constitution – at least for awhile longer – and we ought to be very grateful that we are not yet under a state-ran religious system.
"Pages, I greatly respect your directness and honesty. However, I vehemently reject your characterization of my contributions in these forums as superfluous exaggerations."
Well thank you. As to my supposed characterization of your forum contributions as "superfluous exaggerations", I can only ask, how did you come to that conclusion? I simply used the phrase, "Methinks you doth protest too much", as an opening to the barrage of rhetorical questions put forward in that section; which, I then followed-up with my answer to all those questions in summary fashion. Superfluous was not anywhere in my mind when I wrote, nor in the words I wrote. Nevertheless, I apologize for my opening phrase use.
"Am I not entitled to express my views in these forums freely and passionately?"
Absolutely. Freedom of speech.
"Did I oppose a beloved person, topic, or institution dear to you?"
Not that I am aware of – is this a suggestion for quid pro quo on the forum?
"Pages, I saved the best for last. You have identified the problem in these forums and why so many denominations exist. How one interprets the Bible is the leading cause of most problems in this world. The Enemy (Satan) is at work to keep us divided and in darkness."
Myself, I would say that sin is the leading cause of all problems in the world.
"Why? This reality needs to be explored with serious minds and determination. Has not God spoken in various means, men, and times? We need to listen to God anew through the sources He provided. Has man become too wise or “smart” for God? God “inspired” holy men to write as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. He is still willing and ready to illuminate “darken” minds today."
"We must get back to the Bible! Let us be warned: Inheriting great wealth and being at the correct safe (Source/Bible) and the wrong combination number (method of interpretation); one remains poor and without a Savior. The theme of the Bible is Jesus (God). Let’s get to work and mine God’s special revelation to humanity. CM"
Theology is messy in this fallen world as is all life, in general, this side of Christ's return. Again, it is imperative to know what one believes, why one believes it; with then being able to communicate that clearly to others (cf. 1Pe. 3:15).
"Has not God spoken in various means, men, and times?"
Certainly
"Has man become too wise or “smart” for God?"
Since the Garden.
"God “inspired” holy men to write as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. He is still willing and ready to illuminate “darken” minds today."
"We must get back to the Bible!"
I agree – on a worldwide scale.
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Thanks for your response.
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One small quibble: You're quite kind to call FCCEM "Bill Coley's Church," but at least for the time being we remain Jesus' church.
Thank you for the correction, the verbiage was incorrect, as I should have said I am a member of the church you currently ministering in as the pastor.
Disclosure to everyone else in this discussion, I have made @Bill_Coley aware of my discovery of this discussion post and website itself when I saw him in person last Friday, and told him of my intentions to post. I am hoping to discover more about the biblical truth in these discussions!
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@Erin_Lee posted:
Thank you for the correction, the verbiage was incorrect, as I should have said I am a member of the church you currently ministering in as the pastor.
The "correction" I offered was of the most mild variety, Erin. Yes, your previous assertion was inaccurate. And yes, I called attention to that inaccuracy in my previous post. But big picture, I accepted your claim as a mission statement! FCCEM's not my church . . . yet! 😝
We're still researching the options, but so far it looks like an ownership transfer will most easily be accomplished if we move the church to either Rhode Island (only God knows why) or the Cayman Islands. The Caymans have better beaches, but also greater exposure to hurricanes. I'm thinking it's going to be one of those coin flip calls. Until such a flip, however, in faith we will follow the one whose church we always will be.
Disclosure to everyone else in this discussion, I have made @Bill_Coley aware of my discovery of this discussion post and website itself when I saw him in person last Friday, and told him of my intentions to post. I am hoping to discover more about the biblical truth in these discussions!
An added bit of color: Erin is the first and only person from our church (other than me, of course) to have posted at christiandiscourse.net. So I was extra excited when she told me of her discovery of the forums and her intention to contribute specifically to this thread.
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Taken to ER the day before. Other concerns and surgery. Pray much. CM
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@Erin_Lee March 28 Disclosure to everyone else in this discussion, I have made @Bill_Coley aware of my discovery of this discussion post and website itself when I saw him in person last Friday, and told him of my intentions to post. I am hoping to discover more about the biblical truth in these discussions!
Welcome 😊
Discussion => Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ? began on 20 April 2019 (almost 4 years ago), which has 794 comments with lots of discussion. Posts by [deleted user] belong to Wolfgang, who has professional English & German translation experience along with understanding Koine Greek.
John 17:5 is challenging for @Bill_Coley & Wolfgang to comprehend what Jesus (me) described => And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed.
Humanly I am challenged to describe Koine Greek preposition παρὰ (para) that expresses "beside" OR "by the side of" when the physical realm did not exist: "before the world existed". To me, only Holy God (with more than one voice) existed prior to creating the physical realm.
Page 1 of this discussion includes some Biblical questions on 28 Feb 2022 so curious about @Erin_Lee answers:
Who comes (rides) on the clouds ?
Logos Bible Search (come OR ride) NEAR clouds
Jesus in human flesh did not need to convince other humans about Jesus being human, but Jewish Rabbi Jesus did need to prove what spiritually dwelt inside His Holy human body (spiritually different than all other humans on earth). Daniel 7 is written in Aramaic (Daniel 8 is written in Hebrew, like most of the old covenant). Ezekiel has phrase "son of man" spoken by יהוה Lord to Ezekiel (in Hebrew), but not "the son of man".
Logos Bible Search (a OR the) BEFORE 1 WORD "son of man" finds Daniel 7:13 along with New Testament references to Daniel 7:13
What does the phrase "the Son of Man" mean ?
Philippians 2:5-11 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.
Who is יהוה Lord Jesus ?
Curious about @Erin_Lee answers for two questions posted on January 23
Belief idea question: Did τὸν θεόν The Most High God make a mistake in this spoken command to followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus:
πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε (John 14:1 Greek spoken by יֵשׁוּעַ ) ?
Be Ye Believing in The אלהים God, also in Me Be Ye Believing
Why did τὸν θεόν The Most High God command followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus to Be Believing in יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus the same as Be Believing in τὸν θεόν The Most High God ?
@Bill_Coley January 25 In these threads over the years you and I have examined and debated the meaning of John 14.1 (and countless other texts!) on multiple occasions. We still disagree, and I still respect your views.
My reply on January 29 was written while viewing "Yes" answer by @Bill_Coley so curious about questions & comments ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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Sad to hear this news CM – praying for a full, and speedy, recovery along with health restored.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said: Welcome 😊
Thank you! I appreciate everyone's warm welcomes.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
John 17:5 is challenging for @Bill_Coley & Wolfgang to comprehend what Jesus (me) described => And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed.
Humanly I am challenged to describe Koine Greek preposition παρὰ (para) that expresses "beside" OR "by the side of" when the physical realm did not exist: "before the world existed". To me, only Holy God (with more than one voice) existed prior to creating the physical realm.
I know that you didn't explicitly ask for me to explain my logic behind this. But there are scriptures that indicate the angels were created before the creation of the Earth.
Job 38 4-7 (NKJV) says “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
This to me indicates that the Angels were there shouting for joy when God created the Earth. Also, the bible never explicitly states WHEN angels were created. I know I am being reaching when stating this, but I have always assumed that the creation of Jesus and the Holy spirit would have occurred the same time (maybe before) the angels were created. Also, our perception of time is different, as confirmed with the following verse:
2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV) States "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"
The only thing I cannot confirm is if in this verse κόσμος (Kosmos) meant the World or the Universe in its context.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus asked:
Who comes (rides) on the clouds ?
I think that it is Jesus that comes down on the clouds
Matthew 26:62 (NKJV) states: Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
This is also stated in a Daniel 7:13 (NKJV): “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him."
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus asked:
What does the phrase "the Son of Man" mean ?
I have always thought to believe it meant "Human Being", just like Son of Adam. I will be honest, I have not done much deep research until now on the use of the word. A lot of the verses referencing Jesus as "Son of Man" is in the New Testament, specifically the Gospels. I believe that this verbiage was used to show that he was made human.
Matthew 17: 11-12 (NKJV) states "11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.”
Ezekiel was also given the title "son of man".
Ezekiel 2:1-3 states "1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. 3 And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day"
I believe this was used to indicate that Jesus himself, "Son of God" was made human.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Stated:
Philippians 2:5-11 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.
Who is יהוה Lord Jesus ?
I believe this question threw me off for a minute, mainly because the book of Philippians was written originally in Greek. I was curious why you used a Hebrew translation of the verse instead of Greek?
In this verse above, I interpret that Jesus was in the same form that God is in up in Heaven. He became human (Son of Man) so that he could lay down his life for all of our sins, and took the keys of Death and Hades (Revelation 1:17-18). Because of the obedience and sacrifice Jesus made. Jesus became Lord (κύριος in the original Greek). Lord is used to designate Master over us. Jesus is now in charge and responsible over us, this correlates well with the fact that we also see that Jesus is our mediator between God and us (mankind). I believe there is clear distinction between Jesus and God for these very reasons.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 (NKJV) States: "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time"
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Said:
Belief idea question: Did τὸν θεόν The Most High God make a mistake in this spoken command to followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus:
πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε (John 14:1 Greek spoken by יֵשׁוּעַ ) ?
Be Ye Believing in The אלהים God, also in Me Be Ye Believing
Why did τὸν θεόν The Most High God command followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus to Be Believing in יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus the same as Be Believing in τὸν θεόν The Most High God ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, I would like you hear your insights regarding the meaning behind this verse, as it seems like you and @Bill_Coley have had disagreements with the context behind it (and with the significant amount of posts already on this website, I am afraid it would be more difficult for me to find all of them. Based on this verse, and the context of the chapters before and after, it seems that Jesus is telling his disciples to believe in him (Jesus) as they have already had established faith for God himself.
Later on in the chapter, Jesus says to Thomas in John 14:6-7: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
I may not have answered all of your questions well, especially because I am still new in these deeper studies of the Bible. please feel free to clarify anything I might have missed or misunderstood!
Sincerely,
Erin
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@Erin_Lee April 1 This to me indicates that the Angels were there shouting for joy when God created the Earth. Also, the bible never explicitly states WHEN angels were created. I know I am being reaching when stating this, but I have always assumed that the creation of Jesus and the Holy spirit would have occurred the same time (maybe before) the angels were created.
Hebrew language has three spelling variations for nouns: singular, dual (ears, eyes, ...), & plural. When אלהים Elohim (plural God) said: "Let there be light" in Genesis 1:1-5, a mystery for me is what was created on the first day (possibly light creation included angelic creatures). 2 Corinthians 2:14 (LEB) includes: "Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light." The earth was created on the third day and populated with plants, followed by animal population on the sixth day.
@Erin_Lee April 1 Also, our perception of time is different, as confirmed with the following verse:
@Erin_Lee April 1 2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV) States "But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"
@Erin_Lee April 1 The only thing I cannot confirm is if in this verse κόσμος (Kosmos) meant the World or the Universe in its context.
We agree Holy God and humans have different perspective/perception of time.
Curious which verse(s) for κόσμος (Kosmos) ?
Logos Bible Search for lemma.g:κόσμος in SBL Greek New Testament finds 2 Peter 3:6, but not 2 Peter 3:8
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus asked:
Who comes (rides) on the clouds ?
@Erin_Lee April 1 I think that it is Jesus that comes down on the clouds
We agree, which includes Matthew 26:26 "the Son of Man" reference to Daniel 7:13.
To me, Daniel 7:14 is consistent with Matthew 28:18-20 Great Commission.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus asked:
What does the phrase "the Son of Man" mean ?
@Erin_Lee April 1 I have always thought to believe it meant "Human Being", just like Son of Adam. I will be honest, I have not done much deep research until now on the use of the word. A lot of the verses referencing Jesus as "Son of Man" is in the New Testament, specifically the Gospels. I believe that this verbiage was used to show that he was made human.
Hebrew words spoken to Ezekiel were בן-אדם ( ben-ʾādām , "son of Adam" , "son of man")
To me, "Son of God' describes Jesus having a human body while "the Son of Man" describes what was spiritually inside His Holy human body (spiritually different than all other humans on earth). Daniel 7 is written in Aramaic בר אנש ( bar ʾĕnāš , "son of man").
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Stated:
Philippians 2:5-11 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.
Who is יהוה Lord Jesus ?
@Erin_Lee April 1 I believe this question threw me off for a minute, mainly because the book of Philippians was written originally in Greek. I was curious why you used a Hebrew translation of the verse instead of Greek?
The Lexham English Bible (LEB) is a Modern English translation, which began as interlinear English Bible translation text. LXX (70) is an abbreviation for Greek Septuagint, which was a Jewish translation from Hebrew/Aramaic to Greek a couple centuries before Jesus was born. Scriptures when Jesus walked on earth were the Tanakh: Torah (the “Law,” Pentateuch, Books of Moses), Nevi’im (Prophets), K’tuvim (Writings begin with Psalms) and LXX. The meaning of κύριος (kurios , lord) was a discussion item in Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?. My Hebrew word additions to LEB show my belief about Apostle Paul word meanings, who knew the Tanakh & LXX.
Who shares the name יהוה ?
Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB => “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’
Hebrew noun (construct spelling => of) for righteousness has pronoun, suffixed, 1st person, plural whose literal translation is: 'יהוה Yahweh righteousness of We'
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Said:
Belief idea question: Did τὸν θεόν The Most High God make a mistake in this spoken command to followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus:
πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε (John 14:1 Greek spoken by יֵשׁוּעַ ) ?
Be Ye Believing in The אלהים God, also in Me Be Ye Believing
Why did τὸν θεόν The Most High God command followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus to Be Believing in יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus the same as Be Believing in τὸν θεόν The Most High God ?
@Erin_Lee April 1 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, I would like you hear your insights regarding the meaning behind this verse, as it seems like you and @Bill_Coley have had disagreements with the context behind it (and with the significant amount of posts already on this website, I am afraid it would be more difficult for me to find all of them. Based on this verse, and the context of the chapters before and after, it seems that Jesus is telling his disciples to believe in him (Jesus) as they have already had established faith for God himself.
@Erin_Lee April 1 Later on in the chapter, Jesus says to Thomas in John 14:6-7: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
To me, believing in יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus is simultaneously believing in אלהים God, who has three unique voices in One unique sprititual being. Each אלהים God voice is unique (with specific purpose) while having immense intimacy.
My understanding of Ruach HaKodesh (Breath The Holy, Holy Spirit) is in awe of immense intelligence with miraculous power without bodily form = mystery for me about how voice sounds while Thankful for Holy Presence beyond human words to describe.
Page 6 of Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ? includes:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 2019 Is John 14:1 "πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε" figurative speech or a command from Jesus to His disciples to believe in Jesus as God ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 2019 πιστεύετε parsing => verb, present, active, indicative OR imperative, 2nd person, plural (ye be believing)
Wolfgang July 2019 And this verb form determines that te statement is an exhortation or command, whether in the rest of the sentence figures of speech are involved or not.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 2019 Preposition εἰς has different objects (believing to/toward/in): τὸν θεόν (The God) and ἐμὲ (Me = Jesus) that has word order emphasis for Believe In Jesus
Wolfgang July 2019 Now, the word "and" connects two thoughts in one sentence and ndicates rather plainly that Jesus exhorts his disciple (1) to trust/believe IN God and (2) to trust/believe IN him ... The disciples were to trust IN what God had planned and was doing and they were to trust IN what Jesus was doing in carrying out that mission.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 John 14:1 does not have "trust IN" qualifiers: planned, mission, ...
@Bill_Coley July 2019 If a mother says to her child, "you can trust me and you can trust your father," is she saying she and the child's father are the same person? No. Similarly, I don't think Jesus is saying he and God are the same. I think he's inviting trust in both God and himself as God's emissary/Son. Yes, he presents the Father to the world in startling detail and with intimate detail, which he seems to say is possible only because God speaks and works through him (John 14.10, ESV)
Wolfgang July 2019 When the son of a BAKER (who does the BAKER's business) says to the customers in the shop, "Trust in my Father, and trust in me", is he exhorting them to trust that he is his father and that the two of them are not two but only one baker??
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 Father and son bakers are human (not God) so human analogy is not applicable to John 14:1
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 John 14:15 (NLT) If you love me, obey my commandments.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 Who is Jesus to desire loving obedience of commandments by Jesus ? especially while remembering Deuteronomy 30:10 (NLT) The Lord your God will delight in you if you obey his voice and keep the commands and decrees written in this Book of Instruction, and if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 If Jesus is God, then John 14:15 reflects One God's plural unity in Deuteronomy 30:10 יהוה The Lord (unity) your אֱלֹהִים God (Plural) that is echoed in "Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear." in Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, & Luke 21:33 (my is spoken by Jesus)
@Bill_Coley August 2019 "IF Jesus is God," of course, is a hypothetical useful to your argument, but one for which you have not provided proof - in my view, because the hypothetical is not true.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 If Jesus is not God, then John 14:15 contradicts Deuteronomy 30:10 for "obey".
@Bill_Coley August 2019 I don't see the contradiction because I see Jesus as a teacher/lord whom the disciples followed.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 How many teacher(s)/lord(s) to obey ? Are Words spoken by Jesus separate from who Jesus is ?
@Bill_Coley August 2019 On matters of faith and life, the disciples obeyed - and we obey - one specific Lord and teacher.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 For Jewish insights about disciples of Jesus, recommend reading Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewishness of Jesus Can Transform Your Faith and Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewish Words of Jesus Can Change Your Life
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 Daily repetition by Jesus and disciples included The Shema: Deuteronomy 6:4-9, Deuteronomy 11:13-21, Numbers 15:37-41
@Bill_Coley August 2019 Yes, Jesus' words are separate from who he is, just as the words you and I speak are not who we are.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2019 Please explain Jesus teaching in Matthew 15:18 about words spoken from heart defiling humans.
@Bill_Coley August 2019 Again I'm not sure what there is to explain about the verse you ask about. Jesus says it's not what goes into us (e.g. food) that can cause or reflect defilement; it's what comes out of us (e.g. our words). Obviously, Jesus has in mind a certain kind or character of words. Not ALL words defile. In Matthew 15.19 he cites words that communicate "evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander" as examples.
Keep Smiling 😊
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The study was very interesting to me as a former JW. I was a Witness for 4 years, from 1973 to 1977 and I guess I am still one in most of my beliefs if not all. I spent the first 20 years (off and on) after I left trying to prove just one of their main doctrines wrong and never could. I have discussed this subject with a Assembly of God pastors, Baptist pastors, a church of Christ pastor, a pastor who was Baptist until he got "filled" with the Holy Spirit, then he became a Pentecostal pastor and a man that was referred to me as a specialist in showing witnesses the error of their way. They were all nice guys and we had friendly conversations but none of them had a leg to stand on and they knew it. I have a sister and brother in law that are missionaries and another brother in law that is a ordained minister and we all get along wonderfully but we can't discuss this subject because they both (the men) get mad. No one that calls themselves a Christian likes to see scripture pointed out to them that disagrees with what they believe. The stronger they are in their beliefs the more they hat it. Just saying. Well, I saw this and just wanted to commend you and the rest of your group for putting in the time, but wow, I'm surprised it took you all so long to come to a conclusion. Agape
I might add after reading a little (just a little) of the grief you've gotten here is not surprising. Once someone has their mind made up they never want to face the facts and it almost never ends well. With that in mind, maybe the way you all approached this Is the best way. I'd be interested in any reply you might have.
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@Searching posted:
The study was very interesting to me as a former JW. I was a Witness for 4 years, from 1973 to 1977 and I guess I am still one in most of my beliefs if not all.
Hi and welcome to the forums . . . such as they are.
As for your beliefs, in my view, at least, they too are welcome here.
If you're willing to share - and if you're not, move on to the next paragraph - since most, if not all, of your beliefs are still Witness beliefs, why are you today a "former" JW?
I have discussed this subject with a Assembly of God pastors, Baptist pastors, a church of Christ pastor, a pastor who was Baptist until he got "filled" with the Holy Spirit, then he became a Pentecostal pastor and a man that was referred to me as a specialist in showing witnesses the error of their way. They were all nice guys and we had friendly conversations but none of them had a leg to stand on and they knew it.
I choose to believe that people who hold Christological or other faith views different from mine disagree with me and I with them. I choose not to characterize those people as "wrong," or "mistaken," or without legs to stand on. In my view, such an approach has a better, though often negligible, chance of producing respectful exchanges between us.
They were all nice guys and we had friendly conversations but none of them had a leg to stand on and they knew it. I have a sister and brother in law that are missionaries and another brother in law that is a ordained minister and we all get along wonderfully but we can't discuss this subject because they both (the men) get mad. No one that calls themselves a Christian likes to see scripture pointed out to them that disagrees with what they believe. The stronger they are in their beliefs the more they hat it. Just saying.
Faith is personal, which means disputes about it easily become personal. I grieve that reality because whether I agree with a person or not, the faith he or she declares IS his or her faith. I praise God for their faith, even as I invite serious discussion of our differences.
Well, I saw this and just wanted to commend you and the rest of your group for putting in the time, but wow, I'm surprised it took you all so long to come to a conclusion.
Thanks for the affirmation.
It takes time to take seriously 600 Bible passages (450 NT; 150 OT). I was determined to review every potentially/allegedly relevant biblical text and to give each one its due. So on average we examined 5-7 texts per week, viewed a video series, and engaged in several review periods along the way. The journey lasted 3-1/2 years, but I wouldn't have chosen any different path.
I might add after reading a little (just a little) of the grief you've gotten here is not surprising. Once someone has their mind made up they never want to face the facts and it almost never ends well. With that in mind, maybe the way you all approached this Is the best way. I'd be interested in any reply you might have.
It's been hard to find people with Trinitarian views who were willing to engage in serious, thoughtful, and respectful debates on the issues. Invariably - and usually quite quickly - the retorts turned personal. Not good. Not satisfying. And not helpful to sustaining a robust discussion culture (Exhibit A: the near-death state of these forums).
I am passionate about the way I lead Bible studies and invite people into thoughtful evaluation of issues and the texts that shape them. My latest projects are a Sunday group on all things afterlife and a new midweek study focused on Bible texts that are hard to accept, or comprehend, or fit with other Bible texts, a study I'm calling, "The Impossibles." I need to challenge and be challenged by the groups I lead and the subjects we pursue. In the first 40 years of my ministry, at least, that approach has served well both me and those I served.
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@Searching May 24 The study was very interesting to me as a former JW. I was a Witness for 4 years, from 1973 to 1977 and I guess I am still one in most of my beliefs if not all. I spent the first 20 years (off and on) after I left trying to prove just one of their main doctrines wrong and never could. I have discussed this subject with a Assembly of God pastors, Baptist pastors, a church of Christ pastor, a pastor who was Baptist until he got "filled" with the Holy Spirit, then he became a Pentecostal pastor and a man that was referred to me as a specialist in showing witnesses the error of their way. They were all nice guys and we had friendly conversations but none of them had a leg to stand on and they knew it.
+1 Welcome 😀
My own human limitation prevents me from knowing what another human knows.
Complete Jewish Bible Psalm 139
For the leader. A psalm of David: Adonai, you have probed me, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I stand up, you discern my inclinations from afar, you scrutinize my daily activities. You are so familiar with all my ways that before I speak even a word, Adonai, you know all about it already. You have hemmed me in both behind and in front and laid your hand on me. Such wonderful knowledge is beyond me, far too high for me to reach. Where can I go to escape your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I climb up to heaven, you are there; if I lie down in Sh’ol, you are there. If I fly away with the wings of the dawn and land beyond the sea, even there your hand would lead me, your right hand would hold me fast. If I say, “Let darkness surround me, let the light around me be night,” even darkness like this is not too dark for you; rather, night is as clear as day, darkness and light are the same. For you fashioned my inmost being, you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I thank you because I am awesomely made, wonderfully; your works are wonders — I know this very well. My bones were not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes could see me as an embryo, but in your book all my days were already written; my days had been shaped before any of them existed. God, how I prize your thoughts! How many of them there are! If I count them, there are more than grains of sand; if I finish the count, I am still with you. God, if only you would kill off the wicked! Men of blood, get away from me! They invoke your name for their crafty schemes; yes, your enemies misuse it. Adonai, how I hate those who hate you! I feel such disgust with those who defy you! I hate them with unlimited hatred! They have become my enemies too. Examine me, God, and know my heart; test me, and know my thoughts. See if there is in me any hurtful way, and lead me along the eternal way.
I am Thankful for my Holy Adonai Lord God knowing me completely. My desire is to Be Holy as God is Holy. Knowing the deceitfulness of my own heart as expressed in Jeremiah 17:9-10 “The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick. Who can fathom it? I, Adonai, search the heart; I test inner motivations; in order to give to everyone what his actions and conduct deserve.” provides reason for me to prayerfully ask Holy God to help me truly ❤️ Love God with all of me so I can worship God. Our spiritual adversary always wants to disrupt my loving abiding in God (using any which way possible: primarily fleshly attacks in me & people around me).
@Bill_Coley May 24 Faith is personal, which means disputes about it easily become personal. I grieve that reality because whether I agree with a person or not, the faith he or she declares IS his or her faith. I praise God for their faith, even as I invite serious discussion of our differences.
We agree. Holy God's design for free will in humans has every person choosing what to ❤️ Love Most, which is expressed in actions and words. Hence, our Holy Righteous God will correctly reward every human for their actions and words.
Human experience is every creature having one voice. Could the unique oneness of God have more than one voice ?
Related question is: What is plural in one unique God ?
When Yeshua (יְהוָ֥ה salvation) was asked about the most important commandment in the Torah, he quoted "The Shema" whose first line (Deuteronomy 6:4) includes plural unity of One True God:
- Sh'ma שְׁמַ֖ע (Hear & Obey)
- Yisra'el יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל (Israel)
- Adonai יְהוָ֥ה (Lord)
- Eloheinu אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ (Plural God of we)
- Adonai יְהוָ֥ה (Lord)
- echad אֶחָֽד (One / Alone / Unique)
Adonai is the Hebrew word אָדוֹן that was spoken by Jews outside of the Jewish Temple instead of properly saying יְהוָ֥ה
My hypothesis about personal belief & faith about Holy God's nature (one voice OR three in one) is a powerful filter for interpreting Holy God's inspired words.
Keep Smiling 😊
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It would be interesting to see what you all decided if you were to do a similar study on hell or the immortal soul as you have the trinity.
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@Searching posted:
It would be interesting to see what you all decided if you were to do a similar study on hell or the immortal soul as you have the trinity.
The afterlife study that our group launched in mid-March will be a journey of comparable magnitude, though not of the same duration. In our first 12 sessions, we've explored the Old Testament conceptions of "heaven" and "Sheol," and just today began a review of the various ways and for what reason(s) people die in the OT, along with God's role in those deaths and whether the texts present afterlife options in addition to Sheol. This part of our adventure will take another eight weeks or so, then we'll move to the New Testament. This study will surely take us well into 2024.
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I think I owe you a little more than I wrote yesterday so... I stated I'm a former witness, but that may not be completely true since I was not disfellowshipped but just quit going to meetings over 40 years ago. I have found that vast majority of people that left were disfellowshipped or knew they were going to be for various reasons. When I left there were a number of things I was discouraged about, but nothing doctrinally. To explain it in detail would take a couple pages. I did go back a few years ago for a few months but found it different than what I remembered. When I was attending meetings about 60% of the congregation I was in were in their 20's. Vibrant, full of energy, and we had a lot of fellowship with each other, but the congregation I went to were about 70% old folks, like me, and I never felt at home there. Maybe it was because they knew I had not attended for 40 years and were suspicious. If so I don't blame them. I now find it hard to believe they are the "only ones" if you know what I mean.
I have attended many churches over the years from Pentecostal to Baptist. Some for a number of years. Some had great speakers, one in particular had a great pastor and a couple had great music that could move you, but I always found them lacking in the truth. Every once in a while I will go on a site such as this to see if I can find someone that can refute their teachings of the trinity, hell, Jesus bodily resurrection, etc., but to no avail. Each time I do I'm always more convinced in the Witness teaching than before. Yet, I know the everything about them, so I know they're not perfect in their teaching. I'm in quite a quandary and have been for many years.
I think the Bible shows that there are not many roads leading to the same place, which seems to me what you are saying. The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 1:10 "in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." In John 17:20-23 Jesus said “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Philippians2:2 says fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Does this sound like the 30,000 denominations of Christendom? Paul wrote this in Acts 2:9,30 "I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them."
I think if we would go back to the 1st century Christians and see what they did, and believed it would look quite different than what we see in the church today. "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father (not 3)
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As others have said: welcome to the forum.
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@Searching posted:
I did go back a few years ago for a few months but found it different than what I remembered. When I was attending meetings about 60% of the congregation I was in were in their 20's. Vibrant, full of energy, and we had a lot of fellowship with each other, but the congregation I went to were about 70% old folks, like me, and I never felt at home there. Maybe it was because they knew I had not attended for 40 years and were suspicious. If so I don't blame them. I now find it hard to believe they are the "only ones" if you know what I mean.
Another interpretation of your experience upon your return to a Witness congregation is simply that they, like many, many, many other congregations across America, are an aging community. For the last 38 years I've witnessed (and contributed to) the aging of the congregation I serve. When I started my ministry here, there were lots of families in my age range. Today, there are still multiple congregational families in my age range, but that's no longer good news because in our church today, my generation is still the youth group. Most congregations have grown older over the last four decades. I'd be surprised . . . and a bit envious . . . if your Witness congregation hadn't.
And "Amen!" to your doubts about that or any congregation being the "only ones."
Every once in a while I will go on a site such as this to see if I can find someone that can refute their teachings of the trinity, hell, Jesus bodily resurrection, etc., but to no avail. Each time I do I'm always more convinced in the Witness teaching than before. Yet, I know the everything about them, so I know they're not perfect in their teaching. I'm in quite a quandary and have been for many years.
The challenge, of course, is that no faith community, no faithful individual, is "perfect in their teaching." I've found great value in the counsel not to "let the perfect be the enemy of the good."
Does this sound like the 30,000 denominations of Christendom?
I celebrate diversity within the Body of Christ. What I grieve and decry is hostility within the Body - hostility between persons and/or communities who hold differing views on theological or ecclesiastical matters. I genuinely celebrate and praise God for the faith of my brothers and sisters who embrace Trinitarian Christology. I disagree with their views, but so what? Chances are darned good that they disagree with mine.
To my distress and annoyance, in my experience, those who are as passionate about their Trinitarian views as I am about my non-Trinitarian views tend not to celebrate and praise God for my faith nearly as much as I celebrate theirs (insert the snark emoji of your choice here).
I think if we would go back to the 1st century Christians and see what they did, and believed it would look quite different than what we see in the church today. "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father (not 3)
I agree. In my view, there is no doubt that in the main, the first century church had no notion that was Jesus God.
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@Searching May 29 I think if we would go back to the 1st century Christians and see what they did, and believed it would look quite different than what we see in the church today. "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father (not 3)
@Bill_Coley June 2 I agree. In my view, there is no doubt that in the main, the first century church had no notion that was Jesus God.
We disagree about יהוה Jesus belief. Jewish tradition said Adonai (Lord) outside of the Jewish Temple instead of saying יהוה
John 14:6-7 (LEB) =>
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.”
Early believers identified themselves as followers of "The Way" that is now describes my faith in יהוה Jesus as the only way to יהוה אלהים
Repeating question (like @Bill_Coley passionate examples): Who shares the name יהוה ?
Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB => “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’
Hebrew noun (construct spelling => of) for righteousness has pronoun, suffixed, 1st person, plural whose literal translation is: 'יהוה Yahweh righteousness of We'
FWIW: my prayer modification of Matthew 6:9 is: " יהוה Yahweh righteousness of We who is in heaven, may your name be treated as holy ... (Holy יהוה Father & Holy יהוה Jesus are ruling as One Righteous King on אלהים God's throne in heaven)
Acts 11:19-26 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
Now those who had been scattered because of the persecution that took place over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, proclaiming the message to no one except Jews alone. But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they came to Antioch, began to speak to the Hellenists also, proclaiming the good news about the יהוה Lord Jesus. And the hand of the יהוה Lord was with them, and a large number who believed turned to the יהוה Lord. And the report came to the attention of the church that was in Jerusalem about them, and they sent out Barnabas as far as Antioch, who, when he arrived and saw the grace of אלהים God, rejoiced and encouraged them all to remain true to the Lord with devoted hearts, because he was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a large number were added to the Lord. So he departed for Tarsus to look for Saul. And when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. And it happened to them also that they met together for a whole year with the church and taught a large number of people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.
What were יהוה Lord Jesus discisples worshipping so they were called Christians ?
By the way Searching Discussion includes my comments about 1st Century church divisions.
@Searching May 28 It would be interesting to see what you all decided if you were to do a similar study on hell or the immortal soul as you have the trinity.
@Bill_Coley May 29 The afterlife study that our group launched in mid-March will be a journey of comparable magnitude, though not of the same duration. In our first 12 sessions, we've explored the Old Testament conceptions of "heaven" and "Sheol," and just today began a review of the various ways and for what reason(s) people die in the OT, along with God's role in those deaths and whether the texts present afterlife options in addition to Sheol. This part of our adventure will take another eight weeks or so, then we'll move to the New Testament. This study will surely take us well into 2024.
1 Thessalonians 5:16-24 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
Rejoice always, pray constantly, give thanks in everything; for this is the will of אלהים God for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things; hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the אלהים God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, who also will do this.
My favorite afterlife story is Climbing into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven that has many places for my examinations & finding Biblical agreement. For example, Chapter 16 Rescued begins with:
Instead of being attacked and mauled by the devil and his demons, I was being rescued by a brilliant, white-bright light.
I could hear myself crying as I was saying, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.
Then I became still as I clearly heard His voice say, I AM the Light.
It was beautiful. Oh, it was so beautiful. I could hear the sound of running water. It rang out in song. I could not see the water. I did not have to. The melodious sound that was quenching my soul was already enough.
I cried out, I have been saved. Jesus, You saved me. You saved me. Thank You, Jesus, thank You.
Once again, I fell down with my whole being in complete relief, surrender, and thankfulness.
Jesus had saved me. He saved me out of hell!
It felt as if the beautiful running water of the Light was consuming my whole being. Even though the Light was so brilliantly white, it did not burn me. Instead, it gently embraced me with a gentle, pure, and enduring love. I could hear myself sobbing in grateful awe. I was still only soul and spirit, so I was not physically shedding tears, but my whole being gently sobbed with emotion.
Then something tender and caressing stilled my soul. It was as if the whole porthole of this Light stilled in expectation.
Jesus’ voice rang out, Michele, I love you with an everlasting love. Your sins have been forgiven.
I could not see Jesus, but I knew He was there. I quietly responded with all that was in me, Thank You, Jesus! Thank You, my Lord!
Then the whole porthole of light broke out in a running water melody again, and joy entered me. A joy I had never before felt flooded my soul. Joy is just so much more than happiness. It is happiness mixed with thankfulness, excitement, hope, song, satisfaction and expectation.
Pulford, Michele. Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven (pp. 175-176). Kindle Edition.
I agree with the description of Joy by Michele, which is correct in expression while being incomplete. I can say all Ruach HaKodesh (Breath The Holy) fruit in Galatians 5:22-23 Love, Joy, Shalom, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-control while lacking human words for complete expression of any Holy fruit aspect.
To me, plural unified אלהים God has three unique voices: Holy יהוה Father , Holy יהוה Jesus, Ruach HaKodesh that at times has all three beautifully sounding together as One.
Chapter 14 Fiery Horrors of Climbing into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven begins with:
Warning: Below I write exactly what I saw and experienced. There is some graphic detail that some might find too fear invoking or offensive. I am not able to take any of it out as this is the horrific truth of what I was taken into.
Fear gripped me. I was begging God to get me out of that evil, burning hellhole when I abruptly came face to face with a crowd of people in agony. I also saw demons. Though I had never seen demons before, but I just knew these things were demons. Likewise, I knew the people were dead people who had not gone to Heaven.
I was intensely grateful for the protection around me that was preventing me from being burned and tortured together with the dead people surrounding me.
The dead people were recognizable as people, yet at the same time they were made of an oozing, gray, jelly-like substance, covered with scaly, rotting matter that was peeling off. It would be too kind to call it skin. The matter oozed as worm-like tentacles underneath gnawed on them.
Horrified, I looked towards what had been their faces. As I looked into their eye sockets, I could see behind the sockets and into their souls. I do not know how I knew, but I could see I was looking into their tortured souls. I will call all the dead people I saw dead-beings. They were definitely dead people, but they were rotting things with live, tormented souls, and this made up their beings.
God, those are dead people there and they don’t have real bodies. They have repugnant, decaying, disgusting, and rotting gray matter covering their bones. And their souls are exposed to those disgusting hideous creatures. This is terrible! This is so cruel.
Michele. They chose this, of their own free will.
Why? Why would they choose this, God? No one would choose this. I knew I had not chosen this and yet I was there.
They chose to believe they did not need my Son — they were good people and did not need Jesus. They said I am a God of love.
I had been one of those people. Shamefully, I recalled the many times I said to God, “I know I have broken my promise to You, God, but I know You understand because You are a God of love.”
I realized how absolutely dishonoring, completely wrong, and ungodly I had been. I had disregarded God’s holiness and taken His love for granted.
I cried out, I’m so sorry, God. I’m so sorry.
God answered, Michele, it is not for me to forgive you, but My Son.
I had not said anything to Jesus. I didn’t think it necessary. Frantic, I asked, Why didn’t anyone come and tell me that? If someone had just come and told me, I would have listened.
I did tell you, Michele. The cross says it all. You just did not want to truly see or hear.
Oh, my God, what have I done? I am sorry, God. I am so sorry. That kept on going through my soul. I had chosen to take my life into my own hands. I had refused to allow Jesus any right to it. I looked around and let out a howl of regret.
I then remembered how I had invited evil and hate willingly into my life on Christmas Eve, and had willingly placed myself under the dominion of hate. I had been given a chance to get out of this grip of evil and hate at the age of sixteen when I had the motorbike accident. Sadly, I had still chosen to cling to my evil ways, enjoying the power it gave me.
God sent people to show me while I lay there in hospital. I chose to treat His way of love and truth with suspicion and reject it as weak. I had even laughed at the pastor and his wife who came to see me and called them Jesus Freaks.
Once again, I cried out in regret. I tried to pull away from the grip of the evil, with the dead- beings and the hideous creatures that were pressing in on me from all sides, but they just seemed to press in more and more until they felt millimeters away.
The dead-beings were screaming out in fear and looking at me with absolute horror. Begging to get out, their pleas were just met with more torment. They screamed out in fear, with absolute horror and hopelessness as they begged to get out. While they looked my way, I do not know if they could see me.
There was no hope in these dead-beings, only fear.
How long are they going to be like that?
For eternity.
As I felt myself being tugged off even further down, deeper into this pit of hell, I started to scream and beg God to get me out.
Pulford, Michele. Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven (pp. 141-143). Kindle Edition.
Ongoing burning description with worms reminded me of Isaiah 66:23-24 (LEB) =>
And this shall happen: From new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh shall come to bow in worship before me,” says יהוה Yahweh. “And they shall go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Also agrees with Mark 9:42-50 LEB (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>
“And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it is better for him if instead a large millstone is placed around his neck and he is thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life crippled than, having two hands, to go into hell — into the unquenchable fire! And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life lame than, having two feet, to be thrown into hell! And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out! It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not extinguished.’ For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt becomes deprived of its salt content, by what can you make it salty? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
What does Holy יהוה Jesus know about what awaits for one who 'causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin' ?
My passionate desire is human free will worship choice: Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord ! as described in Philippians 2:5-11 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.
Keep Smiling 😊
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And I pretty sure the only celebration they observed was the last supper. No Christmas, birthdays, etc. There is so much.
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@Searching wrote, "Every once in a while I will go on a site such as this to see if I can find someone that can refute their teachings of the trinity, hell, Jesus bodily resurrection, etc., but to no avail. "
- Trinity - https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/1035/the-trinity-and-it-s-false-theology
- https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/989/can-the-trinity-be-trusted-as-a-biblical-teaching/
- https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/1021/christian-scriptures-that-stump-trinitarians
- https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/1020/the-deception-of-the-anti-christ-removes-christ-or-opposes-him
- https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/1010/false-trinitarians-dangerous-falsehoods-they-teach
- Hell - https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/21169/#Comment_21169
- Jesus Resurrection - https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/1031/the-truth-about-jesus-resurrection
A good read: https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/942/is-jesus-christ-michael-the-archangel/p1
- Trinity - https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/1035/the-trinity-and-it-s-false-theology
