John 1:1- ignored by context, as well as the rest of John!

Hoping you answer repeated question about The Word in John 1:1 => In view of Isaiah 44:6, How can the Word be a god of any significance ?

Who has seen The Father ?

“But I have a testimony greater than John’s, for the works which the Father has given to me that I should complete them—the very works which I am doing—these testify about me, that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me, that one has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form. And you do not have his word residing in yourselves, because the one whom that one sent, in this one you do not believe. You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life in them, and it is these that testify about me. And you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life. (John 5:36-40 LEB)

Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go, ye know the way. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do. If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me. (John 14:1-24 ASV)

Truly, what is humility ? If Jesus boasted about being God for sending, what pride would humans hear ?

How did God's voice describe Jesus => my beloved Son

And after six days Jesus took along Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothing became bright as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him. So Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here! If you want, I will make here three shelters, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!” And when the disciples heard this, they fell down on their faces and were extremely frightened. And Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up and do not be afraid.” And when they lifted up their eyes they saw no one except him—Jesus alone. (Matthew 17:1-8 LEB)

But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. The Jews therefore marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself. He that speaketh from himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of him that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you doeth the law? Why seek ye to kill me? The multitude answered, Thou hast a demon: who seeketh to kill thee? Jesus answered and said unto them, I did one work, and ye all marvel because thereof. Moses hath given you circumcision (not that it is of Moses, but of the fathers); and on the sabbath ye circumcise a man. If a man receiveth circumcision on the sabbath, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are ye wroth with me, because I made a man every whit whole on the sabbath? Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:14-24 ASV)

Truly, what is humilty ?

If there is therefore any exhortation in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any tender mercies and compassions, make full my joy, that ye be of the same mind, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind; doing nothing through faction or through vainglory, but in lowliness of mind each counting other better than himself; not looking each of you to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others. Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:1-11 ASV)

Keep Smiling 😊

No he is Jehovah's Witness. Not Christian.

Observation is visual difference between my one box reply (blank line between thoughts, will increase to two lines) and your many words is some boxes around various points. One reason for paragraph by paragraph quoting is my desire to copy portions of replies for context flow (easier to read than trying to quote an entire reply, especially when contextual flow comes from more than one reply).

John 1:1 word order is distractingly rearranged in graphic plus has word "with" added in a phrase (along with leaving out a couple words), which does not match the Greek New Testament. Hence, my question about John 1:1 text from the Bible you prefer for learning about God.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1 SBLGNT has prepostion πρὸς once for "with" translation)

We agree Christ and the angels have seen The Father. Caveat: angels (ἄγγελοι) are not mentioned in John 5:36-40.

While we agree, Philippians 2:1-11 has more insight & depth about humility, which helps understanding of John 7:14-24

Could humility allow Jesus to declare He had come to obey The Father's will (without arrogantly declaring His spiritual quality was fully God) ?

Please provide Bible references where God's voice describes your list about Jesus (noticed a number of attributes are not in John's Gospel).

Matthew 17:1-8 includes God's voice from the cloud saying: “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

Matthew 1:18-25 includes an angel messenger from God, who explains the meaning of the name Jesus and includes another name.

Luke 1:26-38 describes another angel messenger from God, whose description about Jesus is among others (not specifically in your list).

Keep Smiling 😊

This thread was flagged because of alleged insults...

The tone in this forum can be rough at times, but we should still treat each other with respect.

Implying that someone isn't a Christian, no matter whether that's really the case or not, is disrespectful, and adds nothing to the discussion.

Thanks for this note, Jan.

In these hyper-partisan and divisive times, I suppose we should expect toughly-worded pronouncements between forum posters, but in my view, judgments about the authenticity each other's faith have no place - and should be allowed no place - in these forums. We all see through the glass dimly. None of us is the ultimate judge. Particularly in forums whose expectations prohibit ad hominem attacks and ask us to "criticize ideas, not people," we ought to be able to replace "You're not a Christian," "Your group is a cult," or "My group are the only Christians" with "I disagree with you about [THIS, THAT, OR THE OTHER ISSUE(S)] and here's why."

Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe on God, believe also on me. (John 14:1 Darby) has same believe command to disciples. If Jesus is an angel, this believe command is sin, which would be punished by Jehovah.

Keep Smiling 😊

So Jesus said, "For if you do not believe that GOD, you will die in your sins" ?? Was Jesus unable to put together a proper sentence??

If he meant to say he was God (I AM), he should have said, "For if you do not believe that I am the I AM, you will die in your sins ... but he didn't!

Same speech problem with Jesus as above... Did Jesus say, "... then you will recognize that GOD, and I do nothing ...."

Is this really how you want to twist Jesus' words, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus ? YOU really want to make Jesus look like a fool unable to talk properly??

I would conclude the problem is with YOUR ideas and faith belief ...

PS: Is this false "I am" hang-up the reason for your strange sentence structures by omitting the words "I" and "am" at the beginning of many of your statements?

@BroRando said:

The NWT claims “JESUS WAS ONLY A CREATED BEING” citing, Revelation 3:1

@BroRando, are you aware that the Greek word (“arche”) has been translated beginning? Also means the “Beginner” or “origin” when used as it is here in an active and not passive sense. In the plural as rulers, governments, this word “origin” appears in Titus 3: 1.

• Please Note: The original Greek text says the creation of God, “not creation by God,” as given in the New World translation!)

Most reliable translations, render the text:

• (RSV) “...the beginning of God’s creation.”
• (NIV) “...the ruler of God’s creation.”
• John 1:21 says that Jesus Christ was the Creator and that He created everything that was created. He did not create Himself, but rather was the One who created and rules God’s creation, Colossians 1:16-17.
• Colossians 1:15. This text says that Jesus is “the first-born of creation.”
  • However, in the Bible, the word first-born does not mean born first.

Note these references to those who were called first-born, but none were born first (from your NWT Bible:

• Psalms 89:20, 27 (NWT) -- “I have found David my servant. I myself shall place him as first-born, The most high of the kings of the earth.” (David was the eighth son of Jesse.)
• Exodus 4:22 (NWT) -- “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘Israel is my son, my first-born.” (Esau was born first).
• Jeremiah 31:9. (NW) -- “and as for Ephraim, he is my first-born.” (It was Manasseh who was born first!).

None of the above were born first, but each was given a place of pre-eminence or supremacy.

• Colossians 1:15-18 shows that Christ was pre-eminent because He had created all things. Once again, he did not create Himself, and thus the Bible shows He was not a created being.

The Greek word used for “first-born” is prototokos.

• However, if Paul wanted to express the idea that Jesus was the first created then he would have used protokistos, from first and create, make:
• NOTICE: The New World Translation [“other”] has been added to all things were created by him.
  • This is to give the impression that Jesus was a created being, and He created all other things!
  • In the original 1950 edition of the New World Translation, the word “other” was not put into brackets!

@BroRando, are you aware of this? How can loyal and sincere Jehovah’s Witnesses ever find the truth when the organization tampers with the Bible like this? CM

Well, @Bill_Coley, I think @BroRando has topped even you for taking Jehovah's name in vain, using God's name and Word to profusely mock and scorn other people.

* "Before the origin of this world existed the LOGOS — who was then with the Supreme God — and was himself a divine person." 

 E. Harwood, A Liberal Translation of the New Testament, vol. I & II (London: T. Becket and P. A. de Hondt; J. Johnson; T. Cadell; J. Gore and J. Sibbald; T. Bancks, 1768), Jn 1:1.

* "In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity."

 Kenneth S. Wuest, The New Testament: An Expanded Translation (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1961), Jn 1:1–5.

* "WHEN ALL THINGS began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was."

 W. D. McH, “Introduction,” in The New English Bible (New York: Oxford University Press; Cambridge University Press, 1970), Jn 1:1.

* "IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [Isa. 9:6.]"

 The Amplified Bible (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1987), Jn 1:1.

* "In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God."

 The Holy Bible: The Contemporary English Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1995), Jn 1:1.

* "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim."

 Institute for Scripture Research, The Scriptures (South Africa: Institute for Scripture Research (Pty) Ltd, 2000), Jn 1:1.

* "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God."

 Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005), Jn 1:1.

The NET Bible has note 3 (about third phrase):

* "In the beginning was being The Word, and The Word was being with The אלהים God, and אלהים God was being The Word."

(My literal translation on 16 Nov 2021 with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of e-lo-HEEM אלהים as God in LXX)

Koine Greek language has four verb tenses whose primary action has secondary past time. Apostle John choose imperfect verb tense that expresses continuous action in past time: was being to begin the Gospel of John. Also, the first preposition phrase Ἐν ἀρχῇ (In the beginning) repeats the first prepositional phrase in the beginning of Genesis in the Greek Septuagint.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1 SBLGNT)

Ἐν - in - preposition - the can be added in translation to show finger pointing indentification of preposition

ἀρχῇ - beginning - noun, dative, singular, feminine

ἦν - to be - verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular - was being (continuous action in past time)

ὁ - the - article, nominative, singular, masculine

λόγος, - word - noun, nominative, singular, masculine

καὶ - and - conjunction - logical connective

ὁ - the - article, nominative, singular, masculine

λόγος - word - noun, nominative, singular, masculine

ἦν - to be - verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular - was being (continuous action in past time)

πρὸς - with - preposition

τὸν - the - article, accusative, singular, masculine

θεόν, - God - noun, accusative, singular, masculine

καὶ - and - conjunction - logical connective

θεὸς - God - noun, nominative, singular, masculine

ἦν - to be - verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular - was being (continuous action in past time)

ὁ - the - article, nominative, singular, masculine

λόγος. - word - noun, nominative, singular, masculine

πρὸς - with - preposition meaning:

When physical realm did not exist, humanly challenging to describe literal idea 'face to face with God' that is truthfully consistent with eternal Soul/Spirit inside יהוה Jesus remembering אלהים God's Glory (John 17:5) & אלהים God's Love (John 17:24) before One unique plural אלהים God created physical realm out of nothing. Spiritual quality of The Word inside the man Jesus was fully אלהים God (John 1:1-18). Completeness of One unique plural אלהים God is three voices: יהוה Father, יהוה Jesus, Breath The Holy (in ONE unified Holy commUnity of ❤️Love).

Thoughts inside my mind have three sources: One unique plural אלהים God, myself, and our spiritual adversary who has prideful "I" trouble.

Isaiah 14:12-17 LEB => How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of dawn! You are cut down to the ground, conqueror of nations! And you yourself said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise up my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit on the mountain of assembly on the summit of Zaphon; I will ascend to the high places of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you, they will look closely at you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who caused kingdoms to shake, who made the world like the desert and destroyed its cities, who would not let his prisoners go home?’

Many imperative verbs are in 1 Thessalonains 5:12-28 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God in LXX) => Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and rule over you in the יהוה Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them beyond all measure in love, because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. And we urge you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, console the discouraged, help the sick, be patient toward all people. See to it that no one pays back evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue good toward one another and toward all people. Rejoice always, pray constantly, give thanks in everything; for this is the will of אלהים God for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things; hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the אלהים God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, who also will do this. Brothers, pray for us. Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. I adjure you by the יהוה Lord, have this letter read aloud to all the brothers. The grace of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Have learned to especially examine my thought(s) that has "I" in it (usually is a prideful temptation from our lying spiritual adversary).

Keep Smiling 😊

Sad to see that rank heresy still abounds here at CD...