John 1:1- ignored by context, as well as the rest of John!
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Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6 ASV)
@BroRando "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God." (John 1:1-2)
In view of Isaiah 44:6, How can the Word be a god of any significance ?
@theMadJW Yes- I actually believe the words of Christ.
If Jesus is "the First and the Last" (Revelation 22:13) so Jehovah & Jesus = One God, then John 1:1-2 should be correctly rendered "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This one was in the beginning with God."
Keep Smiling 😊
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Quit trying to divert from the Topic.
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John 7:18- Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the One who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
This verse really stands out in that Christ could NOT be God since he came to speak for his Father (and God) and NOT himself. He was not looking for "personal glory" but the glory of "the one who sent him". It also makes it clear that if Jesus "was God" LITERALLY then he DID seek his own glory and thus NOT be a man of truth, but a hypocrite.
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@theMadJW Quit trying to divert from the Topic.
Hoping you answer repeated question about The Word in John 1:1 => In view of Isaiah 44:6, How can the Word be a god of any significance ?
Who has seen The Father ?
“But I have a testimony greater than John’s, for the works which the Father has given to me that I should complete them—the very works which I am doing—these testify about me, that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me, that one has testified about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form. And you do not have his word residing in yourselves, because the one whom that one sent, in this one you do not believe. You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life in them, and it is these that testify about me. And you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life. (John 5:36-40 LEB)
Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go, ye know the way. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do. If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me. (John 14:1-24 ASV)
Truly, what is humility ? If Jesus boasted about being God for sending, what pride would humans hear ?
@theMadJW John 1:33- And I myself did not know him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, "The man on whom you see the spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the holy spirit." 34 -I have seen and I testify that this is God's Chosen One.
@theMadJW Not God.
@theMadJW Not 'God-the-Son'.
@theMadJW God's Chosen one!
How did God's voice describe Jesus => my beloved Son
And after six days Jesus took along Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothing became bright as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him. So Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here! If you want, I will make here three shelters, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!” And when the disciples heard this, they fell down on their faces and were extremely frightened. And Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up and do not be afraid.” And when they lifted up their eyes they saw no one except him—Jesus alone. (Matthew 17:1-8 LEB)
But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. The Jews therefore marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself. He that speaketh from himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of him that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you doeth the law? Why seek ye to kill me? The multitude answered, Thou hast a demon: who seeketh to kill thee? Jesus answered and said unto them, I did one work, and ye all marvel because thereof. Moses hath given you circumcision (not that it is of Moses, but of the fathers); and on the sabbath ye circumcise a man. If a man receiveth circumcision on the sabbath, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are ye wroth with me, because I made a man every whit whole on the sabbath? Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (John 7:14-24 ASV)
@theMadJW John 7:18- Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the One who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
@theMadJW This verse really stands out in that Christ could NOT be God since he came to speak for his Father (and God) and NOT himself. He was not looking for "personal glory" but the glory of "the one who sent him". It also makes it clear that if Jesus "was God" LITERALLY then he DID seek his own glory and thus NOT be a man of truth, but a hypocrite.
Truly, what is humilty ?
If there is therefore any exhortation in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any tender mercies and compassions, make full my joy, that ye be of the same mind, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind; doing nothing through faction or through vainglory, but in lowliness of mind each counting other better than himself; not looking each of you to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others. Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:1-11 ASV)
Keep Smiling 😊
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Reading Church Dogma into scriptures I do no longer.
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John 8: 14- Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15- You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16- But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17- In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18- I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."
ALWAYS, Christ teaches he is separate.
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@theMadJW Reading Church Dogma into scriptures I do no longer.
We agree about not reading Church Dogma into scriptures. My primary study focus is God's Word, especially understanding original language significance (verbal expression). While am substantially ignorant about lots of Church Dogma, am Thankful can search a digital library. Thankful Holy God Truth is consistent. Also have learned reading the Bible for all its worth includes knowing appropriate context.
What is John 1:1 text in the Bible you prefer for learning about God ? (noticeably missing from start of this thread)
Bible Questions waiting for your answer (am interested in your personal thoughts about question & Bible passage):
Who has seen The Father ? (John 5:36-40)
Truly, what is humility ? If Jesus boasted about being God for sending, what pride would humans hear ? (John 14:1-24)
How did God's voice describe Jesus ? => my beloved Son (Matthew 17:1-8)
Truly, what is humility ? (Philippians 2:1-11)
Personally disappointed by your ongoing lack of engagement in respectful theological discussions. Disrespect has been shown many times by not mentioning nor answering questions, especially in the context of your posts. Also disrespectful is not using @ to select forum poster: show to what you are responding & who intended. Typing @them has one pop-up choice => @theMadJW (press enter to select) Typing @kee has one choice in pop-up list => @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Using @ to select poster sends a notification about being mentioned in a comment.
My desire is respectful theological discussion focused on God's Word, which can include in-depth original language insights. You (like every human) choose what to really, really, really Love ❤️ the most. Different people have different beliefs, which dramatically affects ability to read scripture text. Seems humans can only see from Scripture what they believe can be in Scripture (effectively blinded by their own belief).
Keep Smiling 😊
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No he is Jehovah's Witness. Not Christian.
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Your posts are too long, bring up multiple points- as I have let you know before. But I will answer them this one time~
What is John 1:1 text in the Bible you prefer for learning about God ? (noticeably missing from start of this thread)
I highlighted in the graphic.
Who has seen The Father ? (John 5:36-40)
Christ and the angels.
Truly, what is humility ?
Love for all, not thinking of yourself as being aloof in arrogance.
How did God's voice describe Jesus ?
His only-begotten son, his servant, firstborn over creation, the beginning of creation, his 'lamb', his mediator, and high priest, among others.
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@theMadJW Your posts are too long, bring up multiple points- as I have let you know before. But I will answer them this one time~
Observation is visual difference between my one box reply (blank line between thoughts, will increase to two lines) and your many words is some boxes around various points. One reason for paragraph by paragraph quoting is my desire to copy portions of replies for context flow (easier to read than trying to quote an entire reply, especially when contextual flow comes from more than one reply).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What is John 1:1 text in the Bible you prefer for learning about God ? (noticeably missing from start of this thread)
@theMadJW I highlighted in the graphic.
John 1:1 word order is distractingly rearranged in graphic plus has word "with" added in a phrase (along with leaving out a couple words), which does not match the Greek New Testament. Hence, my question about John 1:1 text from the Bible you prefer for learning about God.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1 SBLGNT has prepostion πρὸς once for "with" translation)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Who has seen The Father ? (John 5:36-40)
@theMadJW Christ and the angels.
We agree Christ and the angels have seen The Father. Caveat: angels (ἄγγελοι) are not mentioned in John 5:36-40.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Truly, what is humility ?
@theMadJW Love for all, not thinking of yourself as being aloof in arrogance.
While we agree, Philippians 2:1-11 has more insight & depth about humility, which helps understanding of John 7:14-24
Could humility allow Jesus to declare He had come to obey The Father's will (without arrogantly declaring His spiritual quality was fully God) ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How did God's voice describe Jesus ? => my beloved Son (Matthew 17:1-8)
@theMadJW His only-begotten son, his servant, firstborn over creation, the beginning of creation, his 'lamb', his mediator, and high priest, among others.
Please provide Bible references where God's voice describes your list about Jesus (noticed a number of attributes are not in John's Gospel).
Matthew 17:1-8 includes God's voice from the cloud saying: “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Matthew 1:18-25 includes an angel messenger from God, who explains the meaning of the name Jesus and includes another name.
Luke 1:26-38 describes another angel messenger from God, whose description about Jesus is among others (not specifically in your list).
Keep Smiling 😊
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Just bring out one point at a time, or I will regretfully continue to ignore you.
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This thread was flagged because of alleged insults...
The tone in this forum can be rough at times, but we should still treat each other with respect.
Implying that someone isn't a Christian, no matter whether that's really the case or not, is disrespectful, and adds nothing to the discussion.
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Well, the sentiment is appreciated, Jan- but if someone REJECTS what Christ has plainly says, they are NOT a Christian.
But- everyone accuses EVERYONE about that, so I understand!
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@Jan posted:
This thread was flagged because of alleged insults...
The tone in this forum can be rough at times, but we should still treat each other with respect.
Implying that someone isn't a Christian, no matter whether that's really the case or not, is disrespectful, and adds nothing to the discussion.
Thanks for this note, Jan.
In these hyper-partisan and divisive times, I suppose we should expect toughly-worded pronouncements between forum posters, but in my view, judgments about the authenticity each other's faith have no place - and should be allowed no place - in these forums. We all see through the glass dimly. None of us is the ultimate judge. Particularly in forums whose expectations prohibit ad hominem attacks and ask us to "criticize ideas, not people," we ought to be able to replace "You're not a Christian," "Your group is a cult," or "My group are the only Christians" with "I disagree with you about [THIS, THAT, OR THE OTHER ISSUE(S)] and here's why."
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D.A. Carson has put it quite well. Most Logos users among us should have this resource. It's been included in countless lower level base packages over the years. Very helpful resource to learn how to engage in fruitful discussion. https://ref.ly/logosres/ntlrnctlrnc?ref=Page.p+6&off=885
Under the older view of tolerance, a person might be judged tolerant if, while holding strong views, he or she insisted that others had the right to dissent from those views and argue their own cases. This view of tolerance is in line with the famous utterance often (if erroneously) assigned to Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” This older view of tolerance makes three assumptions: (1) there is objective truth out there, and it is our duty to pursue that truth; (2) the various parties in a dispute think that they know what the truth of the matter is, even though they disagree sharply, each party thinking the other is wrong; (3) nevertheless they hold that the best chance of uncovering the truth of the matter, or the best chance of persuading most people with reason and not with coercion, is by the unhindered exchange of ideas, no matter how wrongheaded some of those ideas seem. This third assumption demands that all sides insist that their opponents must not be silenced or crushed. Free inquiry may eventually bring the truth out; it is likely to convince the greatest number of people.
D. A. Carson, The Intolerance of Tolerance (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, UK: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2012), 6–7.
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@theMadJW ALWAYS, Christ teaches he is separate.
Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe on God, believe also on me. (John 14:1 Darby) has same believe command to disciples. If Jesus is an angel, this believe command is sin, which would be punished by Jehovah.
Keep Smiling 😊
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May I suggest one read the two threads below:
- Who is Jesus? -- https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/17653#Comment_17653
- Who is a Christian? -- https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/14528#Comment_14528
There are enough materials here to enlighten, enrich, inform, or reform anyone, in search of truth, from the Bible in a fulfilling way of life. If you don't like what's there, add to it or create a new thread.
However, one should be able to distinguish truth from error. On the other hand, must one dig through mounds of religious, demagogical, bias, half-baked theological propaganda, to get to a kernel truth; when a smorgasbord of biblical imperatives ("Inspiration" -- "God-breathed") are on a table lay before all, to be consumed, with the Holy Spirit, awaiting to give Illumination of the revelation? CM
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I just rest my case on JESUS, instead of reading endless articles about what the Bible says-, even ignoring WTBS articles.
If it it doesn't go along with what HE says- I ditch it!
Of course, I continually read the Bible, asking God to give me insight; and it has GROWN ENORMOUSLY these 5 decades!
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Now, a return to what the book of JOHN has to say in context~
John 7:18- Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the One who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
This verse really stands out in that Christ could NOT be God since he came to speak for his Father (and God) and NOT himself. He was not looking for "personal glory" but the glory of "the one who sent him".
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John 8:25- "Who are you?" they asked.
[Did Jesus say I AM? I AM God?]
"Just what I have been telling you from the beginning," Jesus replied. 26- "I have much to say in judgment of you. But He who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from Him I tell the world."27- They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28- So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do NOTHING on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 -The One [Not THREE] who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases Him." 30- Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
Over and over he showed who the True God WAS- yet Judaism & CHURCHianity has ignored him for almost 2,000 years!
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Jesus at the Feast of Tabernacles
So Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always ready. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I am testifying about it, that its deeds are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time is not yet completed. And when he had said these things, he remained in Galilee.
But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not openly, but (as it were) in secret. So the Jews were looking for him at the feast, and were saying, “Where is he?” And there was a lot of grumbling concerning him among the crowds; some were saying, “He is a good man,” but others were saying, “No, but he deceives the crowd.” However, no one was speaking openly about him for fear of the Jews.
Now when the feast was already half over, Jesus went to the temple courts and began to teach. Then the Jews were astonished, saying, “How does this man possess knowledge, because he has not been taught?” So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not mine, but is from the one who sent me. If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself. The one who speaks from himself seeks his own glory. But the one who seeks the glory of the one who sent him—this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him. Has not Moses given you the law, and none of you carries out the law? Why do you seek to kill me?”
The crowd replied, “You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?” Jesus answered and said to them, “I performed one work, and you are all astonished. Because of this Moses has given you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses would not be broken, are you angry with me because I made a whole man well on the Sabbath? Do not judge according to outward appearance, but judge according to righteous judgment!” (John 7:6-24 LEB)
Thankful for Jesus Loving God ❤️ so much that Jesus humbly chose to speak God's Truth (perfect example for every human who truly Loves God ❤️ first with everything). Jews who had spent years studying/memorizing scripture & Jewish ways were astonished at God's teaching by Jesus.
The Promise of the Spirit
Now on the last day of the feast—the great day—Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and let him drink, the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.) (John 7:37-39 LEB)
Jesus taught that believing in Jesus as Lord יהוה results in God's rivers of living water flowing out of a person. By the way, searching Jewish sources about the last day of the feast includes water drawing & pouring ceremony where Isaiah 12 is read (includes "And you will draw water from the wells of salvation in joy.") so Jewish crowd is experiencing lots of Joy when Jesus speaks God's Truth in Love ❤️
Jesus Predicts His Death
So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me and will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come!” Then the Jews began to say, “Perhaps he will kill himself, because he is saying, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ ” And he said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are from this world; I am not from this world. Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
So they began to say to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “What I have been saying to you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but the one who sent me is true, and the things which I heard from him, these things I say to the world.” (They did not know that he was speaking to them about the Father.)
Then Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will recognize that I AM, and I do nothing from myself, but just as the Father taught me, I say these things. And the one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” While he was saying these things, many believed in him. (John 8:21-30 LEB sans "he" additions for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in John 8:24 & 8:28 )
@theMadJW [Did Jesus say I AM? I AM God?]
Yes (God context per words in John 8:24 & John 8:28).
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus ... Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.”
So Jesus said, "For if you do not believe that GOD, you will die in your sins" ?? Was Jesus unable to put together a proper sentence??
If he meant to say he was God (I AM), he should have said, "For if you do not believe that I am the I AM, you will die in your sins ... but he didn't!
Then Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will recognize that I AM, and I do nothing from myself, but just as the Father taught me, I say these things. ...
Same speech problem with Jesus as above... Did Jesus say, "... then you will recognize that GOD, and I do nothing ...."
Is this really how you want to twist Jesus' words, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus ? YOU really want to make Jesus look like a fool unable to talk properly??
I would conclude the problem is with YOUR ideas and faith belief ...
PS: Is this false "I am" hang-up the reason for your strange sentence structures by omitting the words "I" and "am" at the beginning of many of your statements?
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@Bill_Coley @byGeorge @C Mc @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus @Wolfgang @theMadJW @Truth @reformed
Additional Translations
- “The Word was in the beginning, and the word was with God, and the word was a god.”—The New Testament in an Improved Version, 1808, edited by Thomas Belsham, based on a New Testament translation by William Newcome.
- “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”—The Bible—An American Translation, 1935, by J.M.P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
- “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”—The Bible—Containing the Old and New Testaments, 1950, by James Moffatt.
- “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. So the Word was divine.”—The Authentic New Testament, 1958, by Hugh J. Schonfield.
Misconception: The Word has always existed.
Fact: The “beginning” referred to in this verse cannot mean “the beginning” of God, because God had no beginning. Jehovah God is “from everlasting to everlasting.” (Psalm 90:1, 2) However, the Word, Jesus Christ, did have a beginning. He is “the beginning of the creation by God.”—Revelation 3:14.
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@BroRando said:
“... the Word, Jesus Christ, did have a beginning. He is “the beginning of the creation by God.”—Revelation 3:14.” [NWT]
The NWT claims “JESUS WAS ONLY A CREATED BEING” citing, Revelation 3:1
@BroRando, are you aware that the Greek word (“arche”) has been translated beginning? Also means the “Beginner” or “origin” when used as it is here in an active and not passive sense. In the plural as rulers, governments, this word “origin” appears in Titus 3: 1.
- Please Note: The original Greek text says the creation of God, “not creation by God,” as given in the New World translation!)
Most reliable translations, render the text:
- (RSV) “...the beginning of God’s creation.”
- (NIV) “...the ruler of God’s creation.”
- John 1:21 says that Jesus Christ was the Creator and that He created everything that was created. He did not create Himself, but rather was the One who created and rules God’s creation, Colossians 1:16-17.
- Colossians 1:15. This text says that Jesus is “the first-born of creation.”
- However, in the Bible, the word first-born does not mean born first.
Note these references to those who were called first-born, but none were born first (from your NWT Bible:
- Psalms 89:20, 27 (NWT) -- “I have found David my servant. I myself shall place him as first-born, The most high of the kings of the earth.” (David was the eighth son of Jesse.)
- Exodus 4:22 (NWT) -- “This is what Jehovah has said: ‘Israel is my son, my first-born.” (Esau was born first).
- Jeremiah 31:9. (NW) -- “and as for Ephraim, he is my first-born.” (It was Manasseh who was born first!).
None of the above were born first, but each was given a place of pre-eminence or supremacy.
- Colossians 1:15-18 shows that Christ was pre-eminent because He had created all things. Once again, he did not create Himself, and thus the Bible shows He was not a created being.
The Greek word used for “first-born” is prototokos.
- However, if Paul wanted to express the idea that Jesus was the first created then he would have used protokistos, from first and create, make:
- NOTICE: The New World Translation [“other”] has been added to all things were created by him.
- This is to give the impression that Jesus was a created being, and He created all other things!
- In the original 1950 edition of the New World Translation, the word “other” was not put into brackets!
@BroRando, are you aware of this? How can loyal and sincere Jehovah’s Witnesses ever find the truth when the organization tampers with the Bible like this? CM
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I remember your Bible refused that Jesus is God's only begotten son because they removed begotten from scriptures. If Jesus is Not the First begotten son of God.
Then who was begotten before Jesus?? (John 1:18 LEB)
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Well, @Bill_Coley, I think @BroRando has topped even you for taking Jehovah's name in vain, using God's name and Word to profusely mock and scorn other people.
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Christ was pre-eminent because He had created all things. Once again, he did not create Himself, and thus the Bible shows He was not a created being.
Christ is pre-eminent because he is Frsitborn of ALL Creation (Col 1:15) and the Beginning of Creation. (Rev 3:14) In the Beginning was the Word. (John 1:1)
Pre-eminent means ahead of the Rest! He is Supior to the others because he is one of kind and unique. Is of Noble birth...
Arche' pronounced Ar-kaye... Means Chief Ruler, Chief Messenger, Chief Agent, Foremost, Prince or Kingly Rule... it's a feminine noun pointing to the Word as " In the Beginning was the Word. (John 1:1) Why? Because the Word is Firstborn and brought forth as with labor pains. (BEGOTTEN) The FIRST of Creation BEFORE the earth was.. (Proverbs 8:22) Read (John 17:5)
Strong's Concordance
arché: beginning, origin
Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
Definition: beginning, origin
Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.
HELPS Word-studies 746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").
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@BroRando November 15 Additional Translations
* “The Word was in the beginning, and the word was with God, ”— 1808, edited by Thomas Belsham, based on a New Testament translation by William Newcome.
* “In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, ”— 1935, by J.M.P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
* “The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God,”— 1950, by James Moffatt.
* “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. ”— 1958, by Hugh J. Schonfield.
* "Before the origin of this world existed the LOGOS — who was then with the Supreme God — and was himself a divine person."
E. Harwood, A Liberal Translation of the New Testament, vol. I & II (London: T. Becket and P. A. de Hondt; J. Johnson; T. Cadell; J. Gore and J. Sibbald; T. Bancks, 1768), Jn 1:1.
* "In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity."
Kenneth S. Wuest, The New Testament: An Expanded Translation (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1961), Jn 1:1–5.
* "WHEN ALL THINGS began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was."
W. D. McH, “Introduction,” in The New English Bible (New York: Oxford University Press; Cambridge University Press, 1970), Jn 1:1.
* "IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [Isa. 9:6.]"
The Amplified Bible (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1987), Jn 1:1.
* "In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God."
The Holy Bible: The Contemporary English Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1995), Jn 1:1.
* "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim."
Institute for Scripture Research, The Scriptures (South Africa: Institute for Scripture Research (Pty) Ltd, 2000), Jn 1:1.
* "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God."
Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005), Jn 1:1.
The NET Bible has note 3 (about third phrase):
Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (theos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266–69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons. However, in surveying a number of native speakers of English, some of whom had formal theological training and some of whom did not, the editors concluded that the fine distinctions indicated by “what God was the Word was” would not be understood by many contemporary readers. Thus the translation “the Word was fully God” was chosen because it is more likely to convey the meaning to the average English reader that the Logos (which “became flesh and took up residence among us” in John 1:14 and is thereafter identified in the Fourth Gospel as Jesus) is one in essence with God the Father. The previous phrase, “the Word was with God,” shows that the Logos is distinct in person from God the Father.
sn And the Word was fully God. John’s theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 (“The Father and I are one”), 17:11 (“so that they may be one just as we are one”), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.
Biblical Studies Press, The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible (Biblical Studies Press, 2005).
* "In the beginning was being The Word, and The Word was being with The אלהים God, and אלהים God was being The Word."
(My literal translation on 16 Nov 2021 with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of e-lo-HEEM אלהים as God in LXX)
Koine Greek language has four verb tenses whose primary action has secondary past time. Apostle John choose imperfect verb tense that expresses continuous action in past time: was being to begin the Gospel of John. Also, the first preposition phrase Ἐν ἀρχῇ (In the beginning) repeats the first prepositional phrase in the beginning of Genesis in the Greek Septuagint.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1 SBLGNT)
Ἐν - in - preposition - the can be added in translation to show finger pointing indentification of preposition
ἀρχῇ - beginning - noun, dative, singular, feminine
ἦν - to be - verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular - was being (continuous action in past time)
ὁ - the - article, nominative, singular, masculine
λόγος, - word - noun, nominative, singular, masculine
καὶ - and - conjunction - logical connective
ὁ - the - article, nominative, singular, masculine
λόγος - word - noun, nominative, singular, masculine
ἦν - to be - verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular - was being (continuous action in past time)
πρὸς - with - preposition
τὸν - the - article, accusative, singular, masculine
θεόν, - God - noun, accusative, singular, masculine
καὶ - and - conjunction - logical connective
θεὸς - God - noun, nominative, singular, masculine
ἦν - to be - verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular - was being (continuous action in past time)
ὁ - the - article, nominative, singular, masculine
λόγος. - word - noun, nominative, singular, masculine
πρὸς - with - preposition meaning:
The root-idea is ‘near,’ ‘near by,’ according to Delbrück,8 though Brugmann9 inclines to ‘towards.’ In Homer πρός has an adverbial use, πρὸς δέ, with the notion of ‘besides.’ ‘Near,’ rather than ‘towards,’ seems to explain the resultant meanings more satisfactorily. The idea seems to be ‘facing,’ German gegen. Cf. πρόσωπον. In ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν (Jo. 1:1) the literal idea comes out well, ‘face to face with God.’
A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Logos Bible Software, 2006), 622–623.
When physical realm did not exist, humanly challenging to describe literal idea 'face to face with God' that is truthfully consistent with eternal Soul/Spirit inside יהוה Jesus remembering אלהים God's Glory (John 17:5) & אלהים God's Love (John 17:24) before One unique plural אלהים God created physical realm out of nothing. Spiritual quality of The Word inside the man Jesus was fully אלהים God (John 1:1-18). Completeness of One unique plural אלהים God is three voices: יהוה Father, יהוה Jesus, Breath The Holy (in ONE unified Holy commUnity of ❤️Love).
Thoughts inside my mind have three sources: One unique plural אלהים God, myself, and our spiritual adversary who has prideful "I" trouble.
Isaiah 14:12-17 LEB => How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of dawn! You are cut down to the ground, conqueror of nations! And you yourself said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise up my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit on the mountain of assembly on the summit of Zaphon; I will ascend to the high places of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you, they will look closely at you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who caused kingdoms to shake, who made the world like the desert and destroyed its cities, who would not let his prisoners go home?’
Many imperative verbs are in 1 Thessalonains 5:12-28 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God in LXX) => Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and rule over you in the יהוה Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them beyond all measure in love, because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. And we urge you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, console the discouraged, help the sick, be patient toward all people. See to it that no one pays back evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue good toward one another and toward all people. Rejoice always, pray constantly, give thanks in everything; for this is the will of אלהים God for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things; hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the אלהים God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, who also will do this. Brothers, pray for us. Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. I adjure you by the יהוה Lord, have this letter read aloud to all the brothers. The grace of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Have learned to especially examine my thought(s) that has "I" in it (usually is a prideful temptation from our lying spiritual adversary).
Keep Smiling 😊
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Have learned to especially examine my thought(s) that has "I" in it (usually is a prideful temptation from our lying spiritual adversary).
Well, using the figure of speech Ellipsis ("omission") you emphasize the "I" ... This approach of yours achieves the exact opposite of what you say and claim above. I would have thought, you would know that ... since eliminating the pronoun "I" in the sentence obviously does not eliminate it from the intended meaning of the sentence.
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Sad to see that rank heresy still abounds here at CD...
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