Angels: Are they Real?

C McC Mc Posts: 3,941

@Wolfgang asked the question in the thread Witches and Witchcraft @C Mc Apr 12, 2021. I think it needed its own space and a full hearing:

"... The translation "angel" of a word which simply means "messenger" misleading and giving a false idea? Are there even "FALLEN angels" (i.e. can angels "fall [sin, rebel]" ? If so, who is to say that those assumed supposedly "good angels" now won't at some time also "fall" ?? A big re-think on "angels" seems necessary ..."

Yes, angels are real. According to Genesis 18, three men visited Abraham (18:1–2), and he showed them his generous hospitality. Later in the story, two of them departed to Sodom (18:16, 22), and they are identified as angels or messengers (19:1, 15) but also as men (19:5, 10, 12). 

The Lord who visited Abraham together with two other angels (Gen 18:1–2, 10, 13, 16–23, 33; 19:1, 18–19) and spoke with Abraham in chap.18.

As for questioning the veracity of "fallen angels", it's all here, in your Bible. There is sufficient evidence of passages referring to the chief fallen angel known as Satan"

  • Isa 14:12–15
  • Ezek 28:12–19

Satan's (Lucifer) activities of pride and pretension to be like God are made plain. The passages show a link to Rev 12:7–9. All of the aforementioned passages convey “an event that occurred in the heavenly realm” involving a divine being or member of the heavenly council (Ps 82; Ezek 28:12–19). These verses show “a creature subjected to mortality.”

Wolfgang, Could be perhaps, "A big re-think" on doubting "angels" seems necessary ..."? CM

Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303
    edited April 28

    Wolfgang, Could be perhaps, "A big re-think" on doubting "angels" seems necessary ..."? CM

    You speak about "doubting" .... how can one doubt something when it is not even clear what is meant?

    What do you mean with the question "are angels REAL"? Are you assuming a certain meaning for "angels" in your question?

    I would certainly say that when Scripture speaks of "angels/messengers" they speak of something "real"!! The proper question should be perhaps "Are angels really what maybe the majority of people think they are?"

    Is there a difference between an "angel" and a "messenger"? What does the underlying words (in Hebrew / Greek) mean? Are there different words for "angel" and "messenger"?

    Is what you claim evidence for " even evidence or in reality an interpretation assumption that is not even addressed in the passages you mention (Isa 14:12-15; Eze 28:12-19) ... in other words, is that interpretation of necessity the correct one or does the text maybe make more sense when understood with less inferences?

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,941

    Wolfgang,

    I thought you didn't believe in angels or their existence. I was under the impression that you didn't believe in "fallen angels".

    If so, I shared with you that Lucifer was a "Fallen Angel" (Isa 14:12-15Eze 28:12-19). He is the one who orchestrated rebellion in heaven and on earth (Luke 10:18; Acts 26:18; Rev 12:9, 20:2). To be clear the New Testament hints that the fall of man in the Garden of Eden can be attributed to the work of Satan. In Rev 12:9, 20:2, where the devil is called ”the ancient serpent.” I am glad to know you accept the biblical teachings that angels are real and some are fallen.


    As for your other questions:

    1. Are you assuming a certain meaning for "angels" in your question?
    2. I would certainly say that when Scripture speaks of "angels/messengers" they speak of something "real"!! The proper question should be perhaps "
    3. Is there a difference between an "angel" and a "messenger"?
    4. What does [do] the underlying words (in Hebrew / Greek) mean?
    5. Are there different words for "angel" and "messenger"?

    They can be bones to enfleshed with biblical texts and research, except for number # 2: "Are angels really what maybe the majority of people think they are?"  What do you mean by this? CM

    SOURCE:

    • Kevin Sullivan, “The Fall of the Angels and the Rise of Demons,” in The Watchers in Jewish and Christian Tradition, eds. Angela Kim Harkins, Kelley Coblentz Bautch, and John C. Endres (Minneapolis: Fortress, 2014), 92.
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    If so, I shared with you that Lucifer was a "Fallen Angel" (Isa 14:12-15Eze 28:12-19).

    Do you really not read and understand about whom these two passages are speaking, even though they plainly tell you? Nowhere

    He is the one who orchestrated rebellion in heaven and on earth (Luke 10:18; Acts 26:18; Rev 12:9, 20:2). To be clear the New Testament hints that the fall of man in the Garden of Eden can be attributed to the work of Satan.

    Again, where do these passages speak of a rebellion of angels in heaven and on earth??

    Are you aware of the fact that communication in form of words in any lamguage involves both the use of words and expressions (a) in their literal sense, and (b) as part of figures of speech by which the sense and point of an expression is emphasized?

    Rom 5:12 rather plainly states that sin entered the world by the doing of Adam, not a fallen spirit being ("Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, ...")

    On what basis do we correctly understand (for example in NT) the Greek word ἄγγελος (angelos) with a plain meaning of "messenger" as a "human messenger" or - as is done quite often - as some "spirit living person being" (and that as either "good (unfallen) spirit being" or "evil (fallen) spirit being" ??

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,941


    @Wolfgang said:

    If so, I shared with you that Lucifer was a "Fallen Angel" (Isa 14:12-15Eze 28:12-19). 

    Do you really not read and understand about whom these two passages are speaking, even though they plainly tell you? Nowhere

    Yes, I read it. May I suggest you read Gen 3:1-6? These verses speak to the origin of sin on earth. Gen. 3: 8–14, 16–19, speaks of its results; and v. 15. its remedy. Please be mindful the sin itself goes back to a rebellion in heaven:

    • Sin's origins, see Is. 14:12–14; Ezek. 28:15–17; Rev. 12:7–9.
    • For more on the essential nature of SIN, see 1 John 3:4.
    • On the universal results of SIN on human nature, see Gen. 8:21; Ps. 51:5; Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21; Rom. 3:23; 5:10; 6:16, 23; Eph. 2:3; James 4:1–2; 1 Pet. 5:8.

    As for Lucifer was a "Fallen Angel" (Isa 14:12-15Eze 28:12-19):

    Lucifer. Literally, “shining one, son of dawn.” The name Lucifer comes from the Latin Vulgate, and means “light-bearer.” The text seems to be echoed by Jesus in Luke 10:18, where language applied here to the king of Babylon is used of Satan.

    "In your heart" -- Pride is the essence of sin and represents self-centeredness which is the root of all sinful actions

    Ezek. 28:12–19 king of Tyre. The language of this section is no longer applicable to an earthly ruler. The focus shifts to the cosmic realm, emphasizing the supernatural being behind the scenes, the angelic mentor of the human pawn on the earthly throne. The passage describes the cosmic origin of SIN and rebellion against God (vv. 15–17); it is parallel to Is. 14:12–14, where the supernatural being responsible for evil is named Lucifer, and to Rev. 12:4, 7–9, where this being after his fall is called "Satan" and "the devil".

    Ezk 28:14 anointed cherub who covers. Not human, but a supernatural being, a throne-attending angel.

    Ezk. 28:15 iniquity. Literally, “injustice.” It appears this heavenly cherub harbored in his heart a false belief that God was unjust.

    Rom 5:12 rather plainly states that sin entered the world by the doing of Adam, not a fallen spirit being ("Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, ...")

    Do you not accept that

    (1) That sin that entered the world through Adam caused death (Gen. 3:1–6)?

    (2) Everyone must have sinned because everyone dies?

    It is because of this condition of human nature, traceable to Adam’s sin, that human beings must be born again (Rom. 3:23; 5:1).

    Until next time, Angels in the Bible. CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    @C Mc wrote:

    Yes, I read it. May I suggest you read Gen 3:1-6? These verses speak to the origin of sin on earth. Gen. 3: 8–14, 16–19, speaks of its results; and v. 15. its remedy. Please be mindful the sin itself goes back to a rebellion in heaven:

    Sin's origins, see Is. 14:12–14; Ezek. 28:15–17; Rev. 12:7–9

    I have read Gen 3 plenty of times .... I also have read Isa 14, Eze 28 and Rev 12 passages, but none of these say anything about sin going back to a rebellion in heaven.

    As for Lucifer was a "Fallen Angel" (Isa 14:12-15Eze 28:12-19):

    Nothing there about Lucifer was a fallen angel.

    Lucifer. Literally, “shining one, son of dawn.” The name Lucifer comes from the Latin Vulgate, and means “light-bearer.” The text seems to be echoed by Jesus in Luke 10:18, where language applied here to the king of Babylon is used of Satan.

    "In your heart" -- Pride is the essence of sin and represents self-centeredness which is the root of all sinful actions

    Nothing there either about a fallen angel or rebellion in heaven

    Ezek. 28:12–19 king of Tyre. The language of this section is no longer applicable to an earthly ruler. The focus shifts to the cosmic realm, emphasizing the supernatural being behind the scenes, the angelic mentor of the human pawn on the earthly throne. The passage describes the cosmic origin of SIN and rebellion against God (vv. 15–17); it is parallel to Is. 14:12–14, where the supernatural being responsible for evil is named Lucifer, and to Rev. 12:4, 7–9, where this being after his fall is called "Satan" and "the devil".

    Ezk 28:14 anointed cherub who covers. Not human, but a supernatural being, a throne-attending angel.

    Ezk. 28:15 iniquity. Literally, “injustice.” It appears this heavenly cherub harbored in his heart a false belief that God was unjust.

    Again, nothing about sin in heaven or fallen angel in heaven.

    Rom 5:12 rather plainly states that sin entered the world by the doing of Adam, not a fallen spirit being ("Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, ...")

    Do you not accept that

    (1) That sin that entered the world through Adam caused death (Gen. 3:1–6)?

    (2) Everyone must have sinned because everyone dies?

    I've said that all along ... Adam is mentioned, not a fallen angel, spirit being

    It is because of this condition of human nature, traceable to Adam’s sin, that human beings must be born again (Rom. 3:23; 5:1).

    Yes, and what does this observation have to do with the topic of angels, fallen angels?

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,941

    Wolfgang,

    It's alright to learn something new from the Bible, providing you're willing to admit you don't know it all. It's a "Divine/human product" that reveals who God is, His will, and how He relates to humanity in various settings and situations. Ezek 28:14, 16, speaks of the being called "a cherub". The passage likens the King of Tyre to a covering cherub in the garden of Eden (Ezek 28:13, 14). This passage, along with Isa 14:12-21, is generally thought to contain the account of Satan’s fall from heaven.

    Other occurrences of "cherubim" in Ezekiel are found in chapter 41, which describes cherubim carved into the features of the temple (Ezek 41:18, 20, 25). These cherubim differ from the “living ones” in that they only have two faces. It has been suggested that this difference derives from the creatures being in profile. Let the Bible speak. CM

    SOURCES:

    • Wood, Of Wings and Wheels, 2 n. 4, 50.
    • Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25- 48, NICOT (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1998), 558.
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