Angels: Are they Real?

C McC Mc Posts: 3,891

@Wolfgang asked the question in the thread Witches and Witchcraft @C Mc Apr 12, 2021. I think it needed its own space and a full hearing:

"... The translation "angel" of a word which simply means "messenger" misleading and giving a false idea? Are there even "FALLEN angels" (i.e. can angels "fall [sin, rebel]" ? If so, who is to say that those assumed supposedly "good angels" now won't at some time also "fall" ?? A big re-think on "angels" seems necessary ..."

Yes, angels are real. According to Genesis 18, three men visited Abraham (18:1–2), and he showed them his generous hospitality. Later in the story, two of them departed to Sodom (18:16, 22), and they are identified as angels or messengers (19:1, 15) but also as men (19:5, 10, 12). 

The Lord who visited Abraham together with two other angels (Gen 18:1–2, 10, 13, 16–23, 33; 19:1, 18–19) and spoke with Abraham in chap.18.

As for questioning the veracity of "fallen angels", it's all here, in your Bible. There is sufficient evidence of passages referring to the chief fallen angel known as Satan"

  • Isa 14:12–15
  • Ezek 28:12–19

Satan's (Lucifer) activities of pride and pretension to be like God are made plain. The passages show a link to Rev 12:7–9. All of the aforementioned passages convey “an event that occurred in the heavenly realm” involving a divine being or member of the heavenly council (Ps 82; Ezek 28:12–19). These verses show “a creature subjected to mortality.”

Wolfgang, Could be perhaps, "A big re-think" on doubting "angels" seems necessary ..."? CM

Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,165
    edited April 28

    Wolfgang, Could be perhaps, "A big re-think" on doubting "angels" seems necessary ..."? CM

    You speak about "doubting" .... how can one doubt something when it is not even clear what is meant?

    What do you mean with the question "are angels REAL"? Are you assuming a certain meaning for "angels" in your question?

    I would certainly say that when Scripture speaks of "angels/messengers" they speak of something "real"!! The proper question should be perhaps "Are angels really what maybe the majority of people think they are?"

    Is there a difference between an "angel" and a "messenger"? What does the underlying words (in Hebrew / Greek) mean? Are there different words for "angel" and "messenger"?

    Is what you claim evidence for " even evidence or in reality an interpretation assumption that is not even addressed in the passages you mention (Isa 14:12-15; Eze 28:12-19) ... in other words, is that interpretation of necessity the correct one or does the text maybe make more sense when understood with less inferences?

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,891

    Wolfgang,

    I thought you didn't believe in angels or their existence. I was under the impression that you didn't believe in "fallen angels".

    If so, I shared with you that Lucifer was a "Fallen Angel" (Isa 14:12-15Eze 28:12-19). He is the one who orchestrated rebellion in heaven and on earth (Luke 10:18; Acts 26:18; Rev 12:9, 20:2). To be clear the New Testament hints that the fall of man in the Garden of Eden can be attributed to the work of Satan. In Rev 12:9, 20:2, where the devil is called ”the ancient serpent.” I am glad to know you accept the biblical teachings that angels are real and some are fallen.


    As for your other questions:

    1. Are you assuming a certain meaning for "angels" in your question?
    2. I would certainly say that when Scripture speaks of "angels/messengers" they speak of something "real"!! The proper question should be perhaps "
    3. Is there a difference between an "angel" and a "messenger"?
    4. What does [do] the underlying words (in Hebrew / Greek) mean?
    5. Are there different words for "angel" and "messenger"?

    They can be bones to enfleshed with biblical texts and research, except for number # 2: "Are angels really what maybe the majority of people think they are?"  What do you mean by this? CM

    SOURCE:

    • Kevin Sullivan, “The Fall of the Angels and the Rise of Demons,” in The Watchers in Jewish and Christian Tradition, eds. Angela Kim Harkins, Kelley Coblentz Bautch, and John C. Endres (Minneapolis: Fortress, 2014), 92.
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,165

    If so, I shared with you that Lucifer was a "Fallen Angel" (Isa 14:12-15Eze 28:12-19).

    Do you really not read and understand about whom these two passages are speaking, even though they plainly tell you? Nowhere

    He is the one who orchestrated rebellion in heaven and on earth (Luke 10:18; Acts 26:18; Rev 12:9, 20:2). To be clear the New Testament hints that the fall of man in the Garden of Eden can be attributed to the work of Satan.

    Again, where do these passages speak of a rebellion of angels in heaven and on earth??

    Are you aware of the fact that communication in form of words in any lamguage involves both the use of words and expressions (a) in their literal sense, and (b) as part of figures of speech by which the sense and point of an expression is emphasized?

    Rom 5:12 rather plainly states that sin entered the world by the doing of Adam, not a fallen spirit being ("Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, ...")

    On what basis do we correctly understand (for example in NT) the Greek word ἄγγελος (angelos) with a plain meaning of "messenger" as a "human messenger" or - as is done quite often - as some "spirit living person being" (and that as either "good (unfallen) spirit being" or "evil (fallen) spirit being" ??

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