Is Christ the Angel of God’s Presence?

Is Christ the Angel of God’s Presence?


“In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his Presence saved them" (Isaiah 63:9 ASV)

“Behold, I send an Angel  before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him” (Exodus 23:20-21 KJV)

"He was oppressed and he let himself be afflicted, But he would not open his mouth. He was brought like a sheep to the slaughter, Like a ewe that is silent before its shearers, And he would not open his mouth." (Isaiah 53:7)

"And he was given a burial place with the wicked, And with the rich in his death, Although he had done no wrong And there was no deception in his mouth." (Isaiah 53:9)

To deny the Angel of God’s Presence you would have to reject Jesus Christ as the Word of God. “In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his Presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them and carried them all the days of old.” (Isaiah 63:9 ASV)

  1. You would have to reject that Jesus Christ was afflicted with our sins.
  2. You would have to reject that Jesus Christ is our Salvation.
  3. You would have to reject that Jesus Christ loved us or felt pity for us.
  4. You would have to reject that Jesus Christ is our Redeemer.
  5. You would have to reject that Jesus Christ died for our sins once and for all time.


Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.” (Luke 9:35)   Accepting Jesus as the Christ can add a profound meaning for your Life. Jesus warned the wicked Religious Leaders of his day, “For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matthew 23:39)

To this very day, opposers of Jesus Christ continue to reject the Messenger in (Exodus 23:20-21 KJV) whom received the name Jesus which actually means ‘Jehovah is Salvation’.



Notice the symmetry of these two Supporting Scriptures:

"I am sending an Angel ahead of you to guard you on the Way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because My Name is in Him." (Exodus 23:20-21)

"For that reason I will assign him a portion among the many, And he will apportion the spoil with the mighty, Because he poured out his life even to death And was counted among the transgressors; He carried the sin of many people, And he interceded for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:12)

"But they Rebelled, and grieved his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] himself fought against them." (Isaiah 63:10)

Has the Angel of God's Presence been revealed you yet?

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Comments

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 12

    Just when you thought this guy was nothing more than duped...

    https://www.brorando.com/

    https://jehovahwitnessqhub.wordpress.com/author/brorando/

    https://brorando.tumblr.com/

    https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/profile/13198-brorando/

    and more.

    He knows what he is doing and is splattering this same falsehood all over the internet.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

     Who has put faith in the thing heard from us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed? Isaiah 53:1

    Six days before the Passover, Jesus arrived at Bethʹa·ny, where Lazʹa·rus was, whom Jesus had raised up from the dead. (John 12:1) Jesus said these things and went off and hid from them.   Although he had performed so many signs before them, they were not putting faith in him,  so that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, who said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard from us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?” (John 12:27-38)


    He will come up like a twig before him, like a root out of parched land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor; And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him. Isaiah 53:2

     A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesʹse, And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit. Isaiah 11:1  And say to him,“‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah. (Zechariah 6:12-13)  I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’ (Revealtion 22:16) As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean the angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean the seven congregations. (Revelation 1:20)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872

     A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesʹse, And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit. Isaiah 11:1

    Well, if this twig will grow of the stump of Jesse, then it is obvious that this twig did NOT exist prior to Jesse ... any ideas otherwise are rendered faulty fantasy by what is declared in this verse in Isa 11:1.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 12

    Your god is far too small, powerless, and limited. If only you could know the one true God. He loves so much that He can come down to be with us in the form of the man Jesus. If only you could believe that!


    There is coming a day when, like it or not, you will.

    Post edited by Truth on
  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    @Wolfgang @Truth

    He was despised and was avoided by men, A man who was meant for pains and was familiar with sickness. It was as if his face were hidden from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account. Isaiah 53:3

    All those seeing me mock me; They sneer and shake their heads in derision: Psalm 22:7 Then they spat in his face and hit him with their fists. Others slapped him on the face, saying: “Prophesy to us, you Christ. Who struck you?” Matthew 26:67-68 Then Jehovah said to me: “Throw it into the treasury—the magnificent value with which they valued me.” So I took the 30 pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of Jehovah. Zechariah 11:13


    Truly he himself carried our sicknesses, And he bore our pains. But we considered him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. Isaiah 53:4

    And Jesus, on coming into Peter’s house, saw his mother-in-law lying down and sick with fever. So he touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she got up and began ministering to him. But after it became evening, people brought him many demon-possessed ones; and he expelled the spirits with a word, and he cured all who were suffering, in order to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: “He himself took our sicknesses and carried our diseases.” Matthew 8:14-17

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    Those are meaningful verses.

  • Yet another link to untrustworthy JW organization: October 30 comment lists many failed predictions proving the society is NOT a truthful way to know אלהים God (the society fails simple test of 100% accuracy to be a truthful communication channel for plural e-lo-HEEM אלהים God).


    Noticed link to @BroRando web site, which reflects (repeats) untrustworthy communications from the Watchtower society (JW organization).

    Question answer depends on what is meant by "the Angel" ?

    Is Christ the first created Angel ?

    Can "the Angel" simply mean messenger sent from plural e-lo-HEEM אלהים God ?

    John 14:15-31 LEB  (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord in LXX) => “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little time and the world will see me no longer, but you will see me; because I live, you also will live. On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. The one who has my commandments and keeps them—that one is the one who loves me. And the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “יהוה Lord, why is it that you are going to reveal yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves me he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and will take up residence with him. The one who does not love me does not keep my words, and the word that you hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me. These things I have spoken to you while residing with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name—that one will teach you all things, and will remind you of everything that I said to you. “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you—not as the world gives, I give to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid. You have heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no power over me. But so that the world may know that I love the Father, and just as the Father has commanded me, thus I am doing. Get up, let us go from here!

    When my thoughts & actions are Holy, am immensely Thankful to experience Holy אלהים God's Loving ❤️ presence (Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control) as described in Matthew 11:25-30 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord in LXX) => At that time Jesus answered and said, “I praise you, Father, יהוה Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and have revealed them to young children. Yes, Father, for to do so was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wants to reveal him. Come to me, all of you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to carry and my burden is light.”

    When my thoughts & actions are unholy, then quietly Holy yoke of אלהים God's Loving ❤️ presence disappears from me. 🙏Praying to Become Holy as אלהים God is Holy so can hear & obey אלהים God always 🙏(am a work in progress who Rejoices in steps toward Holiness while needing אלהים God's help to Become Holy as אלהים God is Holy). Growing in אלהים God's Holiness allows temptations to become more subtle/obnoxious. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of אלהים as God in LXX) => Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we should not be desirers of evil things, just as those also desired them, and not become idolaters, as some of them did, just as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play,” nor commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed sexual immorality, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day, nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes, nor grumble, just as some of them grumbled, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to those people as an example, but are written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore, the one who thinks that he stands must watch out lest he fall. Temptation has not come upon you except what is common to humanity. But אלהים God is faithful, who will not permit you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but will also make a way out together with the temptation, so that you may be able to endure it.


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Is Christ the first created Angel ?

    Can "the Angel" simply mean messenger sent from plural e-lo-HEEM אלהים God ?

    Yes, angels or sons of the true God are referred to as "gods" in the plural form of e-lo-HEEM אלהים God which is a feminine noun. You can include godlike ones.

    Psalm 8:5

    You made him a little lower than godlike ones, And you crowned him with glory and splendor.

    Jesus also admitted of coming from among the gods whom God has sanctified and dispatched into the world. Since gods are sons of God, Jesus questioned his accusers by asking "do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?" John 10:36

    I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.' Pslams 82:6



    The word of God is God's Chief Messenger, when translated it means Chief of the Angels. He takes the lead in defending His Father's Sovereignty. A fitting title for the First Created Angel. That is why he is called Firstborn of All Creation. Colossians 1:15 Some translations say Firstborn of All Creatures.

    Just as the earth was born and brought forth, so as the First Creation was Firstborn and brought forth. (Proverbs 8:22-30)



  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

     But he was pierced for our transgression; He was crushed for our errors. He bore the punishment for our peace, And because of his wounds we were healed. Isaiah 53:5

    “There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Daniel 9:24  He was handed over for the sake of our trespasses and was raised up for the sake of declaring us righteous. Romans 4:25 Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many. Matthew 20:28 For, indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for ungodly men at the appointed time. Romans 5:6

    Christ knew the timing of his first presence in 29 CE but he did not know the timing his second presence would be in 1914 CE although already prophesized by Daniel. (Proof that Jesus is not Jehovah)


    Like sheep we have all wandered about, Each has turned his own way, And Jehovah has caused the error of us all to meet up with him. Isaiah 53:6 (Proofthat Jesus is not Jehovah)

    For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls. 1 Peter 2:25 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 1 Peter 3:18

    “In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his Presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them and carried them all the days of old.” (Isaiah 63:9 ASV)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872

    What are you fellows trying to achieve throwing around Bible verses and whole passages randomly and haphazardly ???

    Just show off to shine in your glory of copy and paste ??

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    1914. I see.

    Then we have another cult equally absurd: Eastern Lightning. Same difference. They say the same thing about their Jesus with another date, which I forget.

    Is your JW Jesus male or female? The EL one is female.

    Where does your Jesus live? I think the EL one lives in New York.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477
    edited November 13

    Feminine nouns are used in both the Hebrew and Greek languages to point to a Creation. Not that they are female but 'brought forth" as with labor pains. Creation is "brought forth" to come into existence. Begotten means "Brought Forth. As in the Deity of Christ.

    Strong's Concordance

    theotés: deity

    Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: theotés

    Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)

    Definition: deity

    Usage: deity, Godhead.


    Jesus is also the Beginning of the Creation. (Rev 3:14)


    Strong's Concordance

    arché: beginning, origin

    Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: arché

    Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')

    Definition: beginning, origin

    Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.


    When trintarians are confronted with facts, they tend to deny them as in the following: HELPS Word-studies

    746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent").

    Jesus is the FIRST... "the initial (starting) point" (Proverbs 8:22) BEFORE anything else... "In the BEGINNING was the WORD".... BEGINNING is decribing whom it was.. THE WORD. The Word was BEGOTTEN "brought forth" as with labor pains.


    Then we also have the feminine noun Creation/Creature. Notice what type of WORK this is?? (John 5:17)

    Strong's Concordance

    ktisis: creation (the act or the product)

    Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: ktisis

    Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)

    Definition: creation (the act or the product)

    Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; Always of Divine Work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

    Since Jesus was BEGOTTEN then at one time he was not. Someone else who a;ready existed would have to bring him into existance in order to bring him forth. What's Firtborn of All Creation mean to you? (Proverbs 8:22) Who is the Builder of Jehovah's Temple? (Proverbs 9:1) Wisdom!

    Strong's Concordance

    chokmah: wisdom

    Original Word: חָכְמָה

    Part of Speech: Noun Feminine

    Transliteration: chokmah

    Phonetic Spelling: (khok-maw')

    Definition: wisdom


    Christ is the Wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24)

    Strong's Concordance

    sophia: skill, wisdom

    Original Word: σοφία, ας, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: sophia

    Phonetic Spelling: (sof-ee'-ah)

    Definition: skill, wisdom

    Usage: wisdom, insight, skill (human or Divine), intelligence.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    The price of eggs in Japan is 200 Yen.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    I noticed you no longer ascribe to the trinity teaching that God is made up of three seprate persons. We see through many scriptures that the Word of God appeared to Moses, Abraham, and even Joshua and everytime they saw him, he was called angel of Jehovah. This messenger had important information to share but their offspring Rebelled, and grieved his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] himself fought against them." (Isaiah 63:10)

    The Last Days that began in 1914 are coming to their End. Soon it will be too late. Take your time. No need to rush....


  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 13

    I am not aware of any trinity teaching that God is made up of three separate persons. You made that up. Apparently, so you could knock something down.

    No explanation will make you give up saying that others believe something they do not. Think about it, that is weird.

    God is one. From the Bible we see three distinct (not separate) persons in one being. Persons seems to throw some people into confusion, and not others. I think that is a result of unbelief. If a person believes, they understand. If they don't believe, then such a sacred matter cannot be understood--and such a person is readily deceived and may resort to all manner of cultish religious confusion.

    If the "persons" thing throws you for a loop, then don't hang up on the word. Reducing God to human analogies and description is bound to fall far short. God is truly unique and un-LIKE anything or anyone that exists. You get it or you don't. But if you miss the divinity of Jesus you miss it all. If you deny the true identity of Jesus, I cannot give any assurance of being a saved child of God--I think you are not. Your inability to understand or believe is the testimony of your unsaved state. At the end of the say, God is a righteous and good judge.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    I know. I think the trinity is the biggest cult of them all. It doesn't even mentions Jesus Christ in its doctrine. All three persons have No Names.

    The dogma that Constantine championed was intended to put an end to dissensions within the fourth-century Church. However, it actually raised another issue: Was Mary, the woman who bore Jesus, “the Mother of God”?


  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    I see tritarians dump their doctrine when confronted with scripture then switch to Modalism which they claim Jesus is God in the flesh..... is this your belief?


  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 14

    All three persons have No Names.

    Yes they do.  יהוה‎,

    Jehovah, if you personally insist on the dubious Catholic rendering. God is one being.

    I see that this has been demonstrated to you from Scripture many times. You must ignore it, reject it, or find yourself unable to believe. Which is it?

    Was Mary, the woman who bore Jesus, “the Mother of God”?

    Mary was the mother appointed to carry Jesus, the incarnation of God, from conception to birth.

    To say she was the "Mother of God" is to conflate meanings. This may be amusing, but likely not confusing.

     tritarians dump their doctrine when confronted with scripture then switch to Modalism which they claim Jesus is God in the flesh..... is this your belief?

    I can't speak for all trinitarians and for that matter don't really think of myself as classic trinitarian (which is irrelevant). But, I have never known anyone of any stripe in modern times to switch to modalism (which I think you must know--so what motive do you have for bringing it up?). Knowing that Jesus is God in flesh isn't modalism. I can't quite imagine how to think of Jesus that way, but I know some unbelievers claim to manage. If I may be frank, I don't think this claim is honest--but could be wrong.

    Think of it this way (I know its Catholic, but forgive that): God in compassion came to sit with us awhile on earth--He put on flesh to do so. He existed before and during and after. The body of Jesus was flesh that could suffer and die as flesh but was God in being/essence (I am avoiding the word "person," which disturbs some people). That ain't yer modalism. Jesus wasn't God in some mode--He was fully God, alright. I am not saying there are not difficulties in humans understanding all that God is--there are. But denying the divinity of Jesus is the worst possible solution to humans attempting to describe God.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477
    edited November 14

    Ya.. you're a trintarian. Sounds like a Baptists or Penecostal sect. Modalists teach the pagan doctrine of incarnation. Even though both doctrines are pagan and void one another, they tend to move from one to the other as the situations suits them in their deception against jesus Christ. As scripture states..."But they Rebelled, and grieved his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] himself fought against them." (Isaiah 63:10)

    They fight against the Lamb of God and not even privy of it since they are stuck in man made dogma. Is God a lamb? I don't think so.. Notice the scripture doesn't say GOD takes away the sin of the Wordl! but, "and as he looked at Jesus walking, he said: “See, the Lamb of God!” (John 1:36)

    The thing I notice about trintarians they don't like (Matthew 16:16) or (Romans 10:9). But I found they deny alot of scriptures. Especially the teaching of Jesus Christ. Oh well... claiming you're saved simply because you beleive in a trinity isn't true truth. It's a lie. You might want to read (Matthew 24:13) when you get aaround to it.

    So if Jesus is God, then he is the three distinct persons called Jehovah? Ahahahahaha that's a new one!

    Funny how the scripture spits out the pagan doctines of modalism and trintarism by stating, "so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Pihllippians 2:10-11)

    Of couse when Jesus claimed God is a Spirit (John 4:24) He must have forgotten to say God is three disinct persons or hey I am God and I am three distinct person? Ya..right..

    What about Jesus stating, "those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth." (John 4:24) Then again, Jesus told the Samaritan woman, "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him." (John 4:23)

    Mary was the mother appointed to carry Jesus, the incarnation of God, from conception to birth.

    To say she was the "Mother of God" is to conflate meanings. This may be amusing, but likely not confusing.

    Uh oh... you forgot to add a fourth distinct person that makes up God. But wait a minute.. you stated Mary is the "Mother of God". Why are the trinity doctrines not up to date? Is Mary the Mother of three distinct person God. Who was Jesus praying to all that time? (John 17:1-3)

    Here's another scriptue that trintarians reject becuse they don't even know who the Angel of the Convenant is... “Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the Way before me; and the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly come to his temple, and the Angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1)

    Funny how trintarians claim God is an angel but not Jesus... isn;t that called an oxymoron? I guess if Mary is called the Mother of God why not? But hey... no such scripture.. about Mary being the Mother of God nor is there scripture that even states Jesus is God but you push ahead full speed.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 14

    When you quote the Bible, you make sense. Everything else is such Swiss cheese on which a reader can't get enough grip to respond.

    You set up an abstract straw man that one can barely recognize then you hack away at it like Don Quixote. Amusing.

    Some of you do seem to be birds of a feather or serpents of a scale. Which is it?

    Every time you are proven wrong which happens repeatedly, you blithely ignore the fact and go on hacking at your windmills.

    That is useless, nuts and dishonest.

    I have no idea where to begin, because you seem to be a cult nut job. I really wonder how on earth I found this twilight zone and feel guilty for staying just for the novelty at your expense. If it weren't for KeepSmiling, I would think it a colossal, distasteful, irreverent joke. Somehow, I seemed to have stumbled into an actual den of serpents. But what if God brought you all here for such a time as this--but no. I don't think so.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    17 Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you—just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:1-3)

    If Jesus was the three distinct person...he would have no need to pray to another three distinct person. So your theory that God is made up of three dictinct persons is unbiblical. Otherwise the scripture would say somethng like this:

    Jesus as the incarnation of God the Father said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said to the first distinct person of the three person God, the hour has come! Glorify your Son the three dictinct person God in the flesh, in order that you the three distinct person God may glorify you,-- just as you the three distinct person God have given me the incarnation of YOU, authority over all flesh, in order that the three distinct person God would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you (the three distinct person God) have given me (the incarnation of the three distinct person God). Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, (the first distinct pesron of God) and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    SEE..how the trinity or modalism doesn't fit? Modalism teaches Jesus is the incarnation of the first distinct person of God but that would void the second distinct person of God, if Jesus was really the incarnation of the first distinct person of God. Both doctrines reject Jesus own teching that the Father is the only true God whom SENT him.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    There you go with your straw man once more. What you write is not what people think. I doubt anyone thinks that. There is one God. You are hung on the false preaching JW peg of demanding that if Jesus if God then God is required to be three separate essences or beings. He is one being. Knock off being soaked in JW propaganda and think for a moment. I am not saying understanding God is easy. I am saying that if you actually listen to what a person who understands the divinity of Christ says from the Bible, that what they say will mean your salvation, hope and joy. Otherwise--you probably miss it.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477
    edited November 14

    That's why most trintarians refuse to publish their doctrines on public forums. The trinity doctrine never admits that one of the three distinct persons is Christ. Why? Because the trinity doctrine is an anti-chrisitan doctrine. They even changed and altered scripture to read God manifested in the flesh. Of course, this is trintarian propganda... a simple search of the Greek shows "God" is absent from that scripture. Members must drink the kool aide to deny that Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

    What does the scriputure say? "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 1:7)

    My JW peg is SCRIPTURE that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16) A scripture that trintarians refute whole heartedly. You think you are saved? Where is that admission in your priceless dogma propaganda? Trinitarians worship what they don't know. If it wasn't for JW's you would have never known the God and Father's Name is Jehovah.


    So when JW's go door to door, we already know we are approaching deceivers and antichrists. That why we show scripture even though most reject scritpure. But what would you expect from some who denies (Matthew 16:16) Trinity never acknowledges "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16)

    Scriptures about the antiichrisitan dogma that began to be taught at the end of the first century:

    1 John 2:18

    Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.

    1 John 2:22

    Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

    2 John 1:7

    For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    1 John 4:3

    But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.

    WHERE is JESUS in the trinity doctrine??

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    Missed Him, didn't ya. Keep trying.

  • Heaven is for Real special movie edition for Target has a Question & Answer section, which includes Colton Burpo at age 14

    Q: Are your memories of heaven still clear to you, or have some things faded ?

    A: I do remember most of it, but some of it has faded since it's been ten years. The clearest things I remember are sitting on Jesus' lap and being able to meet my sister and my great grandfather. Also, [the archangel] Michael's huge flaming sword.



    How can the human JW organization be correct in belief about relationship of Jesus and the archangel Michael ?

    What would happen to your Bible studies if Watchtower stuff was NOT used ?

    Four year old Colton Burpo experienced Jesus and the archangel Michael in אלהים God's Holy Heaven (while Colton's body was dead on earth for a few minutes from a ruptured appendix). Human JW organizational beliefs about the archangel Michael are simply wrong, which is consistent with unfulfilled JW predictions: JW organization is NOT the correct communication channel for אלהים God.


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How can the human JW organization be correct in belief about relationship of Jesus and the archangel Michael ?

    Since the Greek Septuagint states Angel of Great Counsel in Isaiah, that should give you a clue. Also Prince of Peace.

    "During that time {Jesus Christ} will stand up, the Great Prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1-2)

    Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; (John 11:25) Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years. (Rev 20:6)

     the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

    The Lord is Jesus... commanding call, archangels voice and God's trumpet, all have to do with the Word of God, When the Great Prince stands up. He is to Rule as King of God's Kingsom these things occured in 1914.. even though ungodly people of the the world reject that we our in a time of distress caused by Satan being removed.

    “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever, (Daniel 2:44)

    People are ruled by governments which were called kingdoms in the Bible. These same kingdoms that belong to Satan were pffer to Jesus if he just do one act of worship. These man mande kingdom are now being fragmented into in pieces never to return... as a government begins to fragment, it is no more... (ie...USSR)

    Video Fulfilled Prophecy—Daniel Chapter 11


  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 14

    The Watchtower is the infallible Pope of JW's.

    It adds to their "truth" and interprets "truth" to them.

    It comes between them and Jehovah.

    They cannot think or live without it.

    Everything they read in the Bible is filtered through it.

    It is their false "Jehovah."


    Don't miss this excellent classic:

    https://www.logos.com/product/19145/30-years-a-watchtower-slave-the-confessions-of-a-converted-jehovahs-witness

    Post edited by Truth on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872

    @Truth (pseudo) wrote:

    When you quote the Bible, you make sense. Everything else is such Swiss cheese on which a reader can't get enough grip to respond.

    So you are the Swiss cheese distributor seeing that you have not do not quote the Bible ... well said => at least now it is obvious that you mostly are speaking about yourself, just illusionally projecting and accusing others.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 14


    Guilt is the powerful feeling that you express, Wolfgang.

    “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

    (Please note how this passage also defines Jesus as God)

    Post edited by Truth on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872

    Guilt is the powerful feeling that you express, Wolfgang.

    Keep talking about yourself ... perhaps more of @Truth becomes evident ....

    “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

    (Please note how this passage also defines Jesus as God)

    A big hole in the Swiss cheese .... keep it up and put more evidence on the table

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