Did you know?

Did you know?


Did you know that Jesus Christ is called the Wisdom of God? "However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the Wisdom of God." (1 Cor 1:24) Studying the Bible can bring a person a certain amount of calmness and peace of mind. Learning Accurate Biblical Answers to your questions can give a person a measure of self worth and stability. Knowing why things are the way they are can help remove doubt and the fear of not knowing which often triggers anxiety or episodes of depression.

We can learn more about Jesus Christ from these scriptures. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist," (Colossians 1:15-17)

So, if Jesus is the firstborn of All Creation, then at one time he did not exist, but was the first to be created. That means he was made, brought forth, or begotten which are terms that mean 'made to exist' or 'to be' eimi. The scriptures bare witness about Jesus Christ being the Wisdom of God in this manner: "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth," (Proverbs 8:22-25)

We see that Jesus was brought forth before anything else was created. "In the beginning was the Word" (John 1:1) "Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." (Proverbs 8:30-31) Do you now see and understand why Jesus is also called the Son of man?

For a moment, perhaps you have forgotten about your anxiety? Maybe you enjoyed a moment of Peace? Studying the Bible not only has mental benefits but physical benefits also. Would you like to learn more? JW.org

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1 (800) 273-8255


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  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,314

    @BroRando posted:

    The scriptures bare witness about Jesus Christ being the Wisdom of God in this manner: "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth," (Proverbs 8:22-25)

    According to the interlinear I used in my Logos installation, the word translated "wisdom" in Proverbs 8.1,11,12,14 is the feminine noun "חָכְמָה." It's then not surprising that 24 of the 26 English language translations I consulted on the Proverbs 8 text you cite use feminine pronouns ("she" and "her") to refer to wisdom, which speaks in vv. 4-36 of the chapter. Among those I reviewed, only "GOD'S WORD Translation" and the "New World Translation" (to which the link you provided directs its users) use gender-neutral pronouns ("it" and "its"). None of the translations I reviewed uses male pronouns to refer to wisdom.

    Hence I ask, on what basis do you have confidence that the "wisdom of God" to which Paul refers in his letter to the Corinthians is the "wisdom" quoted in Proverbs 8? And on what basis do you have confidence that by his use of the female term "חָכְמָה," the author of Proverbs 8 intends to refer to a male human being?

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73

    "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth," (Proverbs 8:22-25)

    The feminine gender nouns point to a creation. Not that Jesus is a female but rather that he was brought forth as with labor pains. "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:" (Revelation 3:14)

    Strong's Concordance

    arché: beginning, origin

    Original Word: ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: arché

    Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')

    Definition: beginning, origin

    Usage: (a) rule (kingly or magisterial), (b) plur: in a quasi-personal sense, almost: rulers, magistrates, (c) beginning.

    HELPS Word-studies

    746 arxḗ – properly, from the beginning (temporal sense), i.e. "the initial (starting) point"; (figuratively) what comes first and therefore is chief (foremost), i.e. has the priority because ahead of the rest ("preeminent")

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73

    If it makes you feel any better when referring to the Builder of God's House. Wisdom is referred to 'she' in (Proverbs 9:4)

    "Whoever is inexperienced, let him come in here. She says to the one lacking good sense:" (Proverbs 9:4)

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,314
    edited May 31

    @BroRando posted:

    The feminine gender nouns point to a creation. Not that Jesus is a female but rather that he was brought forth as with labor pains. "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:" (Revelation 3:14)

    Created/brought forth things don't HAVE to be humans. I see no sense in Proverbs 8 that the writer means to refer to creation/bringing forth of a person. Rather, in my view he's employing the personification of wisdom. (c.f. Proverbs 1, esp, Proverbs 1.20-33). Clearly wisdom is an elemental trait or characteristic of God, present from the beginning of creation, but there is nothing in the Proverbs text to suggest that the trait is a person.

    Consider God's engagement with wisdom in Job 23.23-28, where God alone sees it, evaluates it, sets it in place, and examines it thoroughly (Job 23.27, NLT). There is no sense in the chapter's lengthy excursus on wisdom that it is a person, let alone a salvific person such as Jesus.

    Given Paul's penchant for quoting Hebrew Bible support for his claims, that he doesn't quote from the Proverbs 8 text when asserting that Jesus became the wisdom of God to me is telling, and hence, I ask again on what basis do you have confidence that Paul is referencing wisdom as described in Proverbs 8 when he asserts that Jesus "became wisdom from God" to us (1 Cor 1.30, ESV) ?

    As for your reference to Revelation, it's not clear to me that Jesus means to identify himself as wisdom itself. Some form of pre-existence with God? Yes. Wise by divine design? Yes. Wisdom itself. No.

    Which all leads back to one of the questions I asked in my previous post, which was that on what basis do you have confidence that by his use of the female term "חָכְמָה," the author of Proverbs 8 intends to refer to a male (or female, for that matter) human being? Your response is not clear to me.


    If it makes you feel any better when referring to the Builder of God's House. Wisdom is referred to 'she' in

    I can't say that it makes me feel any better, but it is another example of wisdom personified in feminine pronouns.

  • @BroRando The feminine gender nouns point to a creation.

    Please provide two OR three verifiable factual witnesses for this assertion.

    Logos Basic search of all the resources in my library for ([field heading,largetext] creation) WITHIN 14 WORDS "feminine gender" did not find any articles to substantiate your idea. Basic search for creation WITHIN 7 WORDS "feminine gender" found 10 articles in a Syriac dictionary and one (1) article in 'The New Strong's Dictionary':

    1278. בְּרִיאָה berı̂y˒âh, ber-ee-aw’; fem. from 1254; a creation, i.e. a novelty:— new thing.

     James Strong, The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1996).

    This Hebrew word is used once in Numbers 16:30

    בְּרִיאָה

    bĕrîʾâ, n.c., something new, unheard; creature. 1×

    Root: ברא 1. Cognates: בְּרָאיָה

    Bible Senses

    new act n., something new that is done: Nu 16:30 (1×)

    Greek Alignments

    φάσμα n., apparition; phantom; vision in a dream: Nu 16:30 (1×)

    Inflections

    בְּרִיאָה NCFSA (1) בְּרִיאָה

     The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2017).

    Analytical Lexicons include every word spelling variation. The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament also includes Louw-Nida Semantic Domain usage numbering, which shows ἀρχή (archē) has a range of meaning in the Greek New Testament & Apostolic Fathers:

    ἀρχή (archē), beginning; ruler. Cognate words: ἀπαρχή, ἀρχάγγελος, ἀρχαῖος, ἀρχηγός, ἀρχιερατικός, ἀρχιερεύς, ἀρχιποίμην, ἀρχισυνάγωγος, ἀρχιτέκτων, ἀρχιτελώνης, ἀρχιτρίκλινος, ἄρχω, ἄρχων, Ἀσιάρχης, αὐτάρκεια, αὐτάρκης, ἐθνάρχης, ἑκατοντάρχης, ἐνάρχομαι, ἐπαρχεία, πατριάρχης, πειθαρχέω, πολιτάρχης, προενάρχομαι, προϋπάρχω, στρατοπεδάρχης, στρατοπέδαρχος, τετρααρχέω, τετραάρχης, ὕπαρξις, ὑπάρχω, χιλίαρχος. Heb. equiv. fr. LXX: רֹאשׁ (28×), תְּחִלָּה (9×); + 18 more

    12.44 (7) ruler Rom 8:38; Eph 3:10; 6:12; Col 1:16; 2:10, 15; rule Eph 1:21

    37.55 (1) rule Jude 6

    37.56 (5) ruler Lk 12:11; 20:20; Tt 3:1; MPoly 10.2; rule 1 Co 15:24

    58.20 (3) beginning Heb 3:14; 5:12; 6:1

    67.65 (43) beginning Mt 19:4, 8; 24:8, 21; Mk 10:6; 13:8, 19; Luke 1:2; John 1:1, 2; 6:64; 8:25, 44; 16:4; Ac 11:15; 26:4; Php 4:15; Heb 1:10; 2:3; 7:3; 2 Pe 3:4; 1 Jn 1:1; 2:13, 14, 24 (2); 3:8, 11; 2 John 5, 6; 1Cl 31.1; 47:2; IMag 13.1; IRo 1.2; ISmyr 7.2; Poly 7.2; Barn 1.6 (2); 15:3; MPoly 17.1; Diog 2.1; 8:11; 11:4

    68.1 (17) beginning Mark 1:1; Jn 2:11; 15:27; Col 1:18; 1 Jn 2:7; Rev 21:6; 22:13; 1Cl 19.2; IEph 3.1; 14:1 (2); 19:3; Poly 4.1; Barn 15.8 (2); 16:8; Herm, S IX, xi, 9

    79.106 (2) corner Ac 10:11; 11:5

    89.16 (3) beginning Rev 3:14; Diog 12.3 (2)

    Forms of ἀρχή

    ἀρχαὶ NNPF(2)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχαῖς NDPF(5)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχὰς NAPF(2)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχάς NAPF(2)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχὴ NNSF(10)  ἀρχή

    Ἀρχὴ NNSF(2)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχῇ NDSF(8)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχή NNSF(1)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχὴν NASF(11)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχήν NASF(1)  ἀρχή

    ἀρχῆς NGSF(37) ἀρχή

    ΑΡΧΗ (WH) NNSF(1) NDSF(1)  ἀρχή

    ΑΡΧΗΣ (WH) NGSF(1)  ἀρχή

     The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament (Logos Bible Software, 2011).


    Basic search for (creation OR origin OR beginning) WITHIN 7 WORDS "feminine gender" found results in 26 resources, including an Augustine lecture whose 11th point expounds on 'The Beginning' answer by Jesus in John 8:25:

    11. And savoring as these men always did of the earth, and ever hearing and answering according to the flesh, what did they say to Him? “Who art thou?” For when thou saidst, “If ye believe not that I am,” thou didst not tell us what thou wert. Who art thou, that we may believe? He answered “The Beginning.” Here is the existence that [always] is. The beginning cannot be changed: the beginning is self-abiding and all-originating; that is, the beginning, to which it has been said, “But thou Thyself art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.” “The beginning,” He said, “for so I also speak to you.” Believe me [to be] the beginning, that ye may not die in your sins. For just as if by saying, “Who art thou?” they had said nothing else than this, What shall we believe thee to be? He replied, “The beginning;” that is, Believe me [to be] the “beginning.” For in the Greek expression we discern what we cannot in the Latin. For in Greek the word “beginning” (principium, αρχή), is of the feminine gender, just as with us “law” (lex) is of the feminine gender, while it is of the masculine (νόμος) with them; or as “wisdom” (sapientia, σοφία) is of the feminine gender with both. It is the custom of speech, therefore, in different languages to vary the gender of words, because in things themselves there is no place for the distinction of sex. For wisdom is not really female, since Christ is the Wisdom of God, and Christ is termed of the masculine gender, wisdom of the feminine. When then the Jews said, “Who art thou?” He, who knew that there were some there who should yet believe, and therefore had said, Who art thou? that so they might come to know what they ought to believe regarding Him, replied, “The beginning:” not as if He said, I am the beginning; but as if He said, Believe me [to he] the beginning. Which, as I said, is quite evident in the Greek language, where beginning (ὰρχή) is of the feminine gender. Just as if He had wished to say that He was the Truth, and to their question, “Who art thou?” had answered, Veritatem [the Truth]; when to the words, “Who art thou?” He evidently ought to have replied, Veritas [the Truth]; that is, I am the Truth. But His answer had a deeper meaning, when He saw that they had put the question, “Who art thou?” in such a way as to mean, Having heard from thee, “If ye believe not that I am, what shall we believe thee to be? To this He replied, “The beginning:” as if He said, Believe me to be the beginning. And He added “for [as such] I also speak to you;” that is, having humbled myself on your account, I have condescended to such words. For if the beginning as it is in itself had remained so with the Father, as not to receive the form of a servant and speak as man with men; how could they have believed in Him, since their weak hearts could not have heard the Word intelligently without some voice that would appeal to their senses? Therefore, said He, believe me to be the beginning; for, that you may believe, I not only am, but also speak to you. But on this subject I have still much to say to you; may it therefore please your Charity that we reserve what remains, and by His gracious aid deliver it to-morrow.


     Augustine of Hippo, “Lectures or Tractates on the Gospel according to St. John,” in St. Augustin: Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Soliloquies, ed. Philip Schaff, trans. John Gibb and James Innes, vol. 7, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, First Series (New York: Christian Literature Company, 1888), 221.


    @BroRando So, if Jesus is the firstborn of All Creation, then at one time he did not exist, but was the first to be created. 

    Observation: if condition idea contradicts John 1:1-18 and John 8:20-30 (includes Jesus reply of 'The Beginning' in John 8:25)

    Proverbs 8:22 commentary by John Gill was published in 1766 includes Arius insight: (pernicious doctrine goes back to 318 AD)

    Ver. 22. The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, &c.] Not created me, as the Targum and the Septuagint version; which version Arius following gave birth to his pernicious doctrine; who from hence concluded Christ is a creature, and was the first creature that God made, not of the same but of a like nature with himself, in some moment or period of eternity; and by whom he made all others: the Word, or Wisdom of God is never said to be created; and if as such he was created, God must have been without his Wisdom before he was created; besides, Christ, as the Word and Wisdom of God, is the Creator of all things, and not created, John 1:1–3 but this possession is not in right of creation, as the word is sometimes used, Gen. 14:19, 22 but in right of paternity; see Gen. 4:1; Deut. 32:6 it might be more truly rendered, the Lord begat me, as the word is translated by the Septuagint in Zech. 13:5 it denotes the Lord’s having, possessing, and enjoying his word and wisdom as his own proper son; which possession of him is expressed by his being with him and in him, and in his bosom, and as one brought forth and brought up by him; as he was in the beginning of his way of creation, when he went forth in his wisdom and power, and created all things; then he did possess his son, and made use of him, for by him he made the worlds: and in the beginning of his way of grace, which was before his way of creation; he began with him when he first went out in acts of grace towards his people; his first thoughts, purposes, and decrees concerning their happiness, were in him; the choice of their persons was made in him; God was in him contriving the scheme of their peace, reconciliation, and salvation; the covenant of grace was made with him, and all fulness of grace was treasured up in him: the words may be rendered, the Lord possessed me, the beginning of his way; that is, who am the beginning, as he is; the beginning of the creation of God, the first cause, the efficient of it, both old and new; see Col. 1:18; Rev. 3:14. So Aben Ezra, who compares with this Job 40:19. This shews the real and actual existence of Christ from eternity, his relation to Jehovah his Father, his nearness to him, equality with him, and distinction from him: it is added, for further illustration and confirmation-sake, before his works of old; the creation of the heavens and the earth; a detail of which there is in the following verses.

     John Gill, An Exposition of the Old Testament, vol. 4, The Baptist Commentary Series (London: Mathews and Leigh, 1810), 382–383.


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.

    this "Jehovah produced me ...." seems a rather peculiar and irregular translation into English ....

    I've consulted several translations (English and German), and these all translate as "YHWH possessed me ..." or "YHWH had me ..." which is more in accordance with the actual text. God is WISE, he HAS and always HAD wisdom ... wisdom is NOT something God created or produced as if it had not existed.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73

    Most reject Jesus words at (John 3:16). Therefore, since Jesus was Begotten then Jesus was brought forth by the One who Always Existed before he did. "Firstborn of All Creation" (Colossians 1:15)

    Strong's Concordance

    ktisis: creation (the act or the product)

    Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ

    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

    Transliteration: ktisis

    Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)

    Definition: creation (the act or the product)

    Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; Always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.

    HELPS Word-studies

    Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo). See 2936 (ktizō) and 2939 /ktístēs ("the Creator") for lengthy discussion on "creation-facts."

  • edited May 31

    @BroRando Most reject Jesus words at (John 3:16). 

    Please provide two OR three verifiable witnesses (otherwise appeal to unknown non-biblical authority lacks credibility).


    Colossians 1:15 is a phrase in the middle of Colossians 1:9-20, which is One long Greek sentence:

    Because of this also we, from the day we heard about it, did not cease praying for you, and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual insight, so that you may live in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good deed and increasing in the knowledge of God, enabled with all power, according to his glorious might, for all steadfastness and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light, who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything, because he was well pleased for all the fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by making peace through the blood of his cross, through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Colossians 1:9-20 LEB)


    Greek Grammar beyond the Basics: NT Exegetical Syntax describes 15 ways Genetive is used as an Adjective: (e.g. Colossians 1:15)

    13. Genitive of Subordination [over]

    a. Definition

    The genitive substantive specifies that which is subordinated to or under the dominion of the head noun.

    b. Key to Identification

    Instead of of supply the gloss over or something like it that suggests dominion or priority.

    c. Amplification/Semantics

    This kind of genitive is a lexico-semantic category. That is, it is related only to certain kinds of head substantives-nouns (or participles) that lexically imply some kind of rule or authority. Words such as βασιλεύς and ἄρχων routinely belong here. For the most part, this genitive is a subset of the objective genitive, but not always.

    d. Illustrations

    1) Clear Examples

    Matt 9:34 τῷ ἄρχοντι τῶν δαιμονίων

    the ruler over the demons

    Mark 15:32 ὁ βασιλεὺς Ἰσραήλ

    the king over Israel

    2 Cor 4:4 ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου

    the god of this world

    Cf. also John 12:31; Acts 4:26; Rev 1:5; 15:3.

    2) Disputed Examples

    1 Tim 1:17 τῷ δὲ βασιλεῖ τῶν αἰώνων

    now to the king of the ages (=the one who rules over the ages)

    The problem with taking this as attributive (as ASV et al. do) is that the gen. is plural. However, if it were put in the singular, the meaning would not be “eternal king” (“king of the age” would be a temporal king). RSV, NRSV treat it as a gen. of subordination—“king of the ages.”

    Eph 2:2 ποτε περιεπατήσατε … κατὰ τὸν ἄρχοντα τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ ἀέρος, τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ νῦν ἐνεργοῦντος ἐν τοῖς υἱοῖς τῆς ἀπειθείας

    you formerly walked according to the ruler of the domain of the air, [the ruler] of the spirit which now works in the sons of disobedience

    The semantic force of subordination here would be “the one who rules over the domain of the air, over the spirit …” Although some take πνεύματος as a gen. of apposition to ἄρχοντα, this is semantically impossible because such cannot occur when both nouns are personal. (See discussion under gen. of apposition, mentioned above.) The idea of this text, then, is that the devil controls non-believers both externally (the environment or domain of the air) and internally (attitudes or spirit).

    Col 1:15 ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως

    who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

    Though some regard this gen. to be partitive (thus, firstborn who is a part of creation), both due to the lexical field of “firstborn” including “preeminent over” (and not just a literal chronological birth order) and the following causal clause (“for [ὅτι] in him all things were created”)—which makes little sense if mere chronological order is in view, it is far more likely that this expresses subordination. Further, although most examples of subordination involve a verbal head noun, not all do (notice 2 Cor 4:4 above, as well as Acts 13:17). The resultant meaning seems to be an early confession of Christ’s lordship and hence, implicitly, his deity.


     Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996), 103–104.


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73

    Who was Begotten?

    Jesus or God? 😀

  • edited May 31

    Why are nations in tumult, and countries plotting in vain? The kings of the earth establish themselves, and the rulers conspire together against Yahweh and his anointed: “Let us tear off their bonds, and cast their cords from us!” He who sits enthroned in the heavens laughs. The Lord derides them. Then he speaks to them in his wrath, and in his fury he terrifies them: “But as for me, I have set my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will tell the decree; Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you. Ask from me and I will make the nations your heritage, and your possession the ends of the earth. You will break them with an iron rod. Like a potter’s vessel you will shatter them.” So then, O kings, be wise. Be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish on the way, for his anger burns quickly. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. (Psalm 2 LEB)

    Remember in John 8:25 when the son, Jesus, was asked by Jews "Who are you?" that Jesus replied: "The Beginning ..." (echos John 1:1 In beginning was being The Word, and The Word was being with The God, and God was being The Word)

    Hence, what does begotten mean in Psalm 2:7 ?

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Remember in John 8:25 when the son, Jesus, was asked by Jews "Who are you?" that Jesus replied: "The Beginning ..."

    ???? did Jesus answer the question by saying that he was the beginning ???

    I'd suggest to read a little more carefully ...

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73

    You got it... Read (Hebrews 5:5)

    God is not Begotten... but Eternal...

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,314

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    Remember in John 8:25 when the son, Jesus, was asked by Jews "Who are you?" that Jesus replied: "The Beginning ..." (echos John 1:1 In beginning was being The Word, and The Word was being with The God, and God was being The Word)

    To my reading, Jesus' use of the word "beginning" - part of the phrase, "from the beginning" - in his John 8.25 response to the crowd offers no echo of John 1.1. In context, the phrase means simply that Jesus is who he's always said he is. That is, "from the beginning" refers to the time he first told people who he was.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    To my reading, Jesus' use of the word "beginning" - part of the phrase, "from the beginning" - in his John 8.25 response to the crowd offers no echo of John 1.1. In context, the phrase means simply that Jesus is who he's always said he is. That is, "from the beginning" refers to the time he first told people who he was.

    Well said ....

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Remember in John 8:25 when the son, Jesus, was asked by Jews "Who are you?" that Jesus replied: "The Beginning ..."

    @Wolfgang ???? did Jesus answer the question by saying that he was the beginning ???

    Actually Yes => ἔλεγον οὖν αὐτῷ· Σὺ τίς εἶ; εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; (John 8:25 SBLGNT)

    ἔλεγον οὖν αὐτῷ· => said therefore to him:

    Σὺ τίς εἶ; => You who to be ?

    εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· => said to them The Jesus:

    Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; => The Beginning which what also I am saying to you ?

    @Wolfgang I'd suggest to read a little more carefully ...

    Carefully reading Greek provided literal basis for John 8:25 assertion. Thankful for @BroRando encouraging ἀρχή research 😊 Τὴν ἀρχὴν is feminine noun in the accusative case. Also τι (indefinite pronoun τὶς what) is accusative case. No nominative in reply by Jesus.

    @Bill_Coley To my reading, Jesus' use of the word "beginning" - part of the phrase, "from the beginning" - in his John 8.25 response to the crowd offers no echo of John 1.1. In context, the phrase means simply that Jesus is who he's always said he is. That is, "from the beginning" refers to the time he first told people who he was.

    English preposition "from" was supplied by translators. Τὴν ἀρχὴν is accusative case (direct object: e.g. Bill throws the ball => 'the ball' is the direct object, which would be spelled using accusative case in Greek). FYI: Greek genetive case spelling can indicate "from" ablative usage.

    Translation from Latin Vulgate to English in the 1790 Douay-Rheims Bible (DRA): "They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you." (John 8:25 DRA)


    The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament, SBL Edition: Sentence Analysis shows Hebrews 5:5-10 is One Greek sentence:

    Thus also Christ did not glorify himself to become high priest, but the one who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you,” just as also in another place he says, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,” who in the days of his flesh offered up both prayers and supplications, with loud crying and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard as a result of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered, and being perfected, he became the source of eternal salvation to all those who obey him, being designated by God a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

    @BroRando God is not Begotten... but Eternal...

    Since Christ is Eternal & priest forever, what does begotten mean ?


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    English preposition "from" was supplied by translators. Τὴν ἀρχὴν is accusative case (direct object: e.g. Bill throws the ball => 'the ball' is the direct object, which would be spelled using accusative case in Greek). FYI: Greek genetive case spelling can indicate "from" ablative usage.

    So then why do you turn the object in the statement of Jesus into the subject????

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus English preposition "from" was supplied by translators. Τὴν ἀρχὴν is accusative case (direct object: e.g. Bill throws the ball => 'the ball' is the direct object, which would be spelled using accusative case in Greek). FYI: Greek genetive case spelling can indicate "from" ablative usage.

    @Wolfgang So then why do you turn the object in the statement of Jesus into the subject????

    My stilted literal translation kept Greek word order in reply by Jesus in John 8:25

    Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅ τι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; => The Beginning which what also I am saying to you ?

    To me, seems awkward to begin reply with direct object (accusative) while lacking subject (nominative). Thought about verb εἰμί (to be) being implied, but εἰμί takes nominative case for subject & predicate: e.g. John 1:1c θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος => θεὸς & ὁ λόγος are all nominative case. The definitive article indentifies subject as ὁ λόγος (The Word) so θεὸς (God) is the predicate quality being description of ὁ λόγος (The Word). If θεὸς had the definite article, then ὁ λόγος would be interchangeable with ὁ θεὸς (completely equivalent). Hence, the quality of ὁ λόγος (The Word) was being θεὸς (God) while ὁ θεὸς (The God) includes ὁ λόγος (The Word) + more => being a plural unique God.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73

    In John 1:18 it states "No Man has Seen God at ANY Time" Yet, some Bible translations removed the second instance of God. Why remove God from scripture?  "No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him." (John 1:18)  Jesus is “a god,” or a mighty one, because he is given power and authority from the almighty God, the Father. (Mt 28:18; 1Co 8:6; Heb 1:2) Because Jesus is the only one directly created by God and the only one through whom all things “came into existence” (Joh 1:3), he is appropriately called “the only-begotten god.” This expression shows that Jesus holds a unique position of glory and preeminence in relation to all of God’s spirit sons.

    Trinitarians could not have a begotten god within the three sperate persons if they are co-existent. Having a begotten god would nullify the trinity. Therefore, the twisted the scripture by removing the second instance of theos.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,314

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    English preposition "from" was supplied by translators. Τὴν ἀρχὴν is accusative case (direct object: e.g. Bill throws the ball => 'the ball' is the direct object, which would be spelled using accusative case in Greek). FYI: Greek genetive case spelling can indicate "from" ablative usage.

    Translation from Latin Vulgate to English in the 1790 Douay-Rheims Bible (DRA): "They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you." (John 8:25 DRA)

    I'm struck by the fact that this veiled dig at those who contributed to nearly all English language Bible translations comes just a handful of lines after your own, personal, and what in a later post you described as "stilted literal"... translation of the verse. You're of course welcome to your translation, but for one who on multiple occasions has asked us to provide "two or three factual witnesses" to backup our assertions, I would expect that the dozens of translations which add "from" to their renditions of the John 8.25 phrase - translations that include the LEB, from which you often quote - would offer evidence AT LEAST as compelling as the 1790 DRA or your personal "stilted literal" translation.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    To me, seems awkward to begin reply with direct object (accusative) while lacking subject (nominative).

    No subject is lacking, rather included in the use of the word form "speak [i.e. "I speak ..."} .... "[from] the beginning I have told you ... ", in order to have a proper English translation the "from" is added to clarify the accusative object.

    Word order does not determine grammatical case and subject or object in a sentence.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73
    edited May 31

    Is this better? It doesn't have from in it... instead the definite article 'the'... how bout 'thee'. These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God. (Rev 3:14) Both Beginning and Creation are feminine nouns pointing to the subject are they not?


    New Living Translation

    “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:

    English Standard Version

    “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

    Berean Literal Bible

    And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of God's creation.

    King James Bible

    And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    New King James Version

    “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,314
    edited May 31

    @BroRando posted:

    Is this better? It doesn't have from in it... instead the definite article 'the'... how bout 'thee'. These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God. (Rev 3:14) Both Beginning and Creation are feminine nouns pointing to the subject are they not?

    It's not clear to me to whose posts this is your response (I encourage you to consider employing the forums' quotation feature), but I'm still waiting for your response to the questions I've posed multiple times now:

    1. On what basis do you have confidence that by his use of the female term "חָכְמָה," the author of Proverbs 8 intends to refer to a male (or female, for that matter) human being?
    2. On what basis do you have confidence that Paul is referencing wisdom as described in Proverbs 8 when he asserts that Jesus "became wisdom from God" to us (1 Cor 1.30, ESV)


    ------------------------------------------------

    CORRECTION:

    In a previous post in this thread I mistakenly referred to "Job 23.27" as a description of God's engagement with wisdom. The reference should have been Job 28.27. I apologize for the error.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73
    edited May 31

    I was speaking to Wolfgang... Is this better? It doesn't have from in it... instead the definite article 'the'... how bout 'thee'. These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God. (Rev 3:14) Both Beginning and Creation are feminine nouns pointing to the subject are they not?


    New Living Translation

    “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:

    English Standard Version

    “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

    Berean Literal Bible

    And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of God's creation.

    King James Bible

    And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    New King James Version

    “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:


    I take it that you reject the Deity of Christ?

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus English preposition "from" was supplied by translators. Τὴν ἀρχὴν is accusative case (direct object: e.g. Bill throws the ball => 'the ball' is the direct object, which would be spelled using accusative case in Greek). FYI: Greek genetive case spelling can indicate "from" ablative usage.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Translation from Latin Vulgate to English in the 1790 Douay-Rheims Bible (DRA): "They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you." (John 8:25 DRA)

    @Bill_Coley I'm struck by the fact that this veiled dig at those who contributed to nearly all English language Bible translations comes just a handful of lines after your own, personal, and what in a later post you described as "stilted literal"... translation of the verse. You're of course welcome to your translation, but for one who on multiple occasions has asked us to provide "two or three factual witnesses" to backup our assertions, I would expect that the dozens of translations which add "from" to their renditions of the John 8.25 phrase - translations that include the LEB, from which you often quote - would offer evidence AT LEAST as compelling as the 1790 DRA or your personal "stilted literal" translation.

    Personally perplexed by LEB (Lexham English Bible) wording too (includes word order rearrangement, a bit surprising for a translation with formal, literal equivalence focus):

    John 8:25 LEB So they began to say to him, * “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “What ** I have been saying to you from the beginning.

    * The imperfect tense has been translated as ingressive here (“began to say”)

    ** Literally “that which”

    Greek preposition ἀπό (from) does not appear in John 8:25 (neither does noun genitive "of/from" spelling).

    Thus far have not found two or three factual witnesses that explain John 8:25 "from the beginning". Searching Grammar resources found <Jn8.25> in a paragraph (within a big Koine Greek Grammar published in 1919) that included:

    (f) Loose Relation to the Verb or any other part of the sentence. So ἀκμήν (cf. ἔτι) in Mt. 15:16 and τὴν ἀρχήν in Jo. 8:25, for this accusative is really adverbial. Cf. also τὸ λοιπόν (Ph. 3:1), τοὐναντίον (Gal. 2:7).

     A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Logos Bible Software, 2006), 546.

    Puzzled by feminine accusative noun being labeled adverbial (in light of Greek NT having 6,854 adverbial words). Later Direct Questions section:

    In John 8:25 both W. H. and Nestle print as a question, Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅτι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν; The Latin versions have quod or quia. It is a very difficult passage at best. Τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅτι may be taken to mean ‘Why do I speak to you at all?’ (τὴν ἀρχήν=ὅλως). But there may be ellipsis, ‘Why do you reproach me that (ὅτι) I speak to you at all?’ If necessary to the sense, ὅτι may be taken here as interrogative. Moulton admits the N. T. use of ὅστις in a direct question. Recitative ὅτι is even suggested in Winer-Schmiedel,8 but the occasional interrogative use of ὅτι is sufficient explanation. But the passage in Jo. 8:25 is more than doubtful. Chrysostom takes ὅτι there as relative, Cyril as causal.

     A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Logos Bible Software, 2006), 730.

    A Johannine Grammar published in 1906 has:

    (μ) Καί “also” in 8:25

    [2154] There is great difficulty in 8:25 “They therefore said unto him, Who art thou? Jesus said unto them, [In] the beginning whatever I also speak unto you (τὴν ἀρχὴν ὅτι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν, punctuated by W.H. txt interrog., marg. affirm.).” Chrysostom’s explanation is as follows, “Now what he means is to this effect, Even at all to hear the words that fall from me ye are unworthy, much more are ye unworthy to understand also who I am[1].” Cramer quotes Cyril thus, “I am justly punished, says [He], because I made a beginning even of [receiving] word[s] from you, because I have addressed to [you] aught of the things that know [? ⲉⲓⲇⲟⲧⲱⲛ? ⲉⲟⲓⲕⲟⲧⲱⲛ “that seem likely”] to profit [you] and took counsel [how] to deliver [you], I have been counted thus cheap in your estimation[2].” It will be observed that the two do not agree. Chrysostom apparently takes τὴν ἀρχήν as ὅλως, “at all,” but Cyril takes it as “beginning.” Chrysostom’s interpretation would require οὐ, or τί καί, or some negative context, which is found with τὴν ἀρχήν when it means “at all” (“never at all,” “not at all” etc.)[3].

     Edwin A. Abbott, Johannine Grammar (London: Adam and Charles Black, 1906), 142–143.


    UBS Handbook commentary focuses on what's important to translate (along with cross cultural insights) desribes John 8:25

    Although for the believer Jesus’ affirmation I Am Who I Am clearly identifies him with God, it is not so for the unbeliever, and so the Jews ask Who are you? The exact meaning of Jesus’ reply is not clear. The older Greek manuscripts lack punctuation and do not have spaces between words. Thus it is possible to interpret Jesus’ reply in three different ways. Most translations, including TEV, understand it to be a statement: What I have told you from the very beginning (NAB, RSV, JB, Phps, Segond). Some others understand Jesus’ reply to be a question: “Why should I speak to you at all?” (TEV alternative rendering; NEB, GeCL, Mft, RSV alternative rendering). Finally, it is possible to take Jesus’ words as an explanation: “That I should speak to you at all!” (see Luther Revised). One important ancient Greek manuscript reads: “I told you at the beginning what I am also telling you,” and some modern scholars believe that this reading makes the best sense in the context.

     Barclay Moon Newman and Eugene Albert Nida, A Handbook on the Gospel of John, UBS Handbook Series (New York: United Bible Societies, 1993), 273.

    Concur with 'The exact meaning of Jesus’ reply is not clear. '


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus To me, seems awkward to begin reply with direct object (accusative) while lacking subject (nominative).

    @Wolfgang No subject is lacking, rather included in the use of the word form "speak [i.e. "I speak ..."} .... "[from] the beginning I have told you ... ", in order to have a proper English translation the "from" is added to clarify the accusative object.

    λαλῶ is present, active, indicative, 1st person, singular => "I am speaking", "I am saying" (so bit puzzled by your past tense rendering 'I have told')

    @Wolfgang Word order does not determine grammatical case and subject or object in a sentence.

    Concur Greek word order does not determine grammatical case: words can be moved for emphasis (since spelling shows grammatical usage).


    @Bill_Coley ... (I encourage you to consider employing the forums' quotation feature) ...

    @BroRando I was speaking to Wolfgang... Is this better? 

    Forum quotation can use @ followed by name to select forum participant. Left margin has paragraph marker: clicking on it has pop-up so can choose Quote style for that paragraph.


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73

    OK... got it...

    He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” (Matthew 16:15) ego'eimi

    What was Peter's Answer? “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16) Peter identifies Jesus as “the Christ” (Greek, ho Khri·stosʹ), a title equivalent to “the Messiah” (from Hebrew ma·shiʹach), both meaning “Anointed One.” Here “Christ” is preceded by the definite article in Greek, evidently as a way of emphasizing Jesus’ office as the Messiah.​—See study notes on Mt 1:1; 2:4.

    The Apostle Paul also gives witness about the ego'eimi . "For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve," (Acts 27:23)

  • @BroRando OK... got it...

    Quoting an entire reply, which has four forum participants mentioned (with paragraphs quoted from several replies) lacks clarity for whom/what your reply is intended.

    Please quote with clarity: e.g. copy a paragraph from a previous reply, paste into your reply, change paragraph format to Quote, add @ participant prefix, followed by your reply in the next paragraph (personally create some blank paragraphs before starting to copy and paste).


    @BroRando He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” (Matthew 16:15ego'eimi

    Matthew 16:15 does not have the phrase: ἐγώ εἰμι (ego eimi is the transliteration of Greek letters into English letters)

    λέγει αὐτοῖς· Ὑμεῖς δὲ τίνα με λέγετε εἶναι; (Matthew 16:15 SBLGNT)

    He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” (Matthew 16:15 LEB)

    @BroRando The Apostle Paul also gives witness about the ego'eimi . "For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve," (Acts 27:23)

    Acts 27:23 also does not have the phrase: ἐγώ εἰμι (ego eimi)

    παρέστη γάρ μοι ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτὶ τοῦ θεοῦ, οὗ εἰμι, ᾧ καὶ λατρεύω, ἄγγελος (Acts 27:23 SBLGNT)

    For this night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve came to me, (Acts 27:23 LEB)

    εἰμι => I am (Greek verb conjugation spelling includes pronoun so the verb 'to be' with first person singular pronoun => εἰμι)

    ἐγώ => I (first person singular pronoun)

    Logos Bible Search for "<Lemma = lbs/el/ἐγώ> <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰμί>" in SBLGNT finds 95 results in 93 verses. Changing Bible Search to allow a word between ἐγώ & εἰμι => <Lemma = lbs/el/ἐγώ> WITHIN 2 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰμί> finds 505 results in 229 verses, which includes Matthew 16:15 along with Jesus speaking phrase: ἐγώ εἰμι 30 times in the Gospel of John. Usual word order is ἐγώ before εἰμι.

    Logos Morph Search in SBLGNT for @D finds 19,800 Definite Articles in 6,964 verses.

    Thankful Logos 9 Basic is free plus The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition (SBLGNT) is included in free Lexham Intro Collection (5 vols.) that also includes Lexham English Bible (LEB). To purchase, need to create a Faithlife account, which can be used for sign-in at Logos.com (free items can be purchased without payment info)


    Curious about @BroRando & @theMadJW opinions about John 8:58 sentence that ends with ἐγώ εἰμι:

    εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί. (John 8:58 SBLGNT)

    Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!” (John 8:58 LEB)

    What did the Jews think Jesus had said that deserved death ? (in accordance with Jewish law, based on Torah teachings)


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73

    It sure does.... Matthew 16:15

    1510. eimi

    Strong's Concordance

    eimi: I exist, I am

    Original Word: εἰμί

    Part of Speech: Verb

    Transliteration: eimi

    Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')

    Definition: I exist, I am

    Usage: I am, exist.

    HELPS Word-studies

    1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – amis1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).

    Also Acts 27:23

    Another for (Acts 27:23)


    All the angels existed Before Abraham was.... 😀

     Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago.  From ancient times I was installed, From the Start, from times Earlier than the Earth.  When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was Brought Forth," (Proverbs 8:22-36)

  • @BroRando It sure does.... Matthew 16:15

    Again, quoting an entire reply lacks clarity for your reply comments.

    Logos Bible Search allowing a word between ἐγώ & εἰμι => <Lemma = lbs/el/ἐγώ> WITHIN 2 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰμί> includes Matthew 16:15

    λέγει αὐτοῖς· Ὑμεῖς δὲ τίνα με λέγετε εἶναι; (Matthew 16:15 SBLGNT)

    με parsing (Greek grammatical identification) => ἐγώ pronoun: personal, first person, accusative, singular (me)

    εἶναι parsing => εἰμι verb: present, active, infinitive (to be)

    "Who do you say that I am ?" is smoother English than "Who you say me to be ?"

    Lemma is the dictionary form of a word, which can have a Strong's number: e.g. 1510 for εἰμι

    Living & (re)learning infinitive verbal (to ...) spelling does not have conjugation personal pronoun 🤒


    Acts 27:23 includes the verb εἰμι while not having ἐγώ pronoun.


    @BroRando All the angels existed Before Abraham was.... 😀

    Where in the Torah is a command for humans to kill angel(s) ?

    What did the Jews understand Jesus to have said in John 8:58 that deserved death ? (John 8:59)


    Noted Proverbs 8:22-36 repeat while not answering two earlier questions:

    @Bill_Coley 1. On what basis do you have confidence that by his use of the female term "חָכְמָה," the author of Proverbs 8 intends to refer to a male (or female, for that matter) human being?

    @Bill_Coley 2. On what basis do you have confidence that Paul is referencing wisdom as described in Proverbs 8 when he asserts that Jesus "became wisdom from God" to us (1 Cor 1.30, ESV)


    Hebrew verb קָנָה (qānâ). in Proverbs 8:22 expresses simple complete action:

    קָנָה (qānâ). vb. to acquire, create. Refers typically to acquiring something through purchase or labor. May refer to creating, not just acquiring, in certain contexts.

    This verb is most often used for acquiring property, goods, qualities, or other abstract concepts (e.g., wisdom and knowledge or understanding; Prov 4:5). However, in a few instances it means “to create.” Genesis refers twice to God as the creator (qānâ) of the heavens and the earth (Gen 14:19, 22). In Deuteronomy 32:6 Moses says that Yahweh, Israel’s Father, created (qānâ) them. David says that Yahweh created (qānâ) his “inward parts” (Psa 139:13). Proverbs says that Yahweh created (qānâ) Wisdom (Prov 8:22). It is not always clear which sense of the verb is intended, and in some of these passages it may mean “acquire” rather than “create.”


     Michael E. Peach, “Creation,” ed. Douglas Mangum et al., Lexham Theological Wordbook, Lexham Bible Reference Series (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2014).

    Hebrew verb נָסַךְ (nāsak I) in Proverbs 8:23 also expresses complete action with passive and/or reflexive voice (action uopn/interacting with actor)

    נָסַךְ (nāsak I), vb. q. pour, pour out; ni. be consecrated, exalted; pi. pour out as a consecration gift; hi. contribute a drink offering, libation (#5818); נֶסֶךְ (nesek I), nom. drink offering (#5821); נָסִיךְ (nāsîk I), nom. wine contribution (#5816).

    ANE 1. The Akk. vb. nasāku A, to throw, throw down, tear down (CAD, N2, 15–20), appears to be related to the Heb. root נסךְ but is used neither for pouring out as a libation nor pouring out metal into a cast as in Heb. There is, however, a Sumerian loanword in Akk. nisakku, offering, which derives from Sumerian ne-sag (AHw, 794). The Sumerian term occurs, for example, in the temple building hymn of Gudea: “Its (the shrine’s) first offering (ne-sag) is a mountain dripping with wine” (Gudea Cylinder A col. 28 line 10, quoted from Averbeck, 675; cf. Gudea Cylinder B col. 17 line 5, ibid., 704 referring to offerings presented in bronze vessels). The connection to “a mountain dripping with wine” seems significant here. It might relate to the concept of libations, esp. since the next line refers to the “brewhouse” of the newly constructed temple of the god Ningirsu, which the ruler Gudea was building. Of course, libations were a common offering to the gods throughout the ANE (see Weinfeld, 99, for the Hittites; CAD, ŠII, 423–24, for the Babylonians; cf. next two secs.).

    2. Ugar. has a vb. nāsak: that means pour out. It is used for pouring out dew and showers upon Anat that she might wash herself clean from the blood of battle (CML, 48, lines 40–41 and 52, lines 87–88; cf. Fisher 1:276). In another place Anat is ordered to “pour a peace-offering in the heart of the earth, honey from a pot in the heart of the fields” (CML, 49, lines 13–14; cf. 51, lines 68–69). In a different context Aqhat laments, “What does a man get as (his) final lot? Glaze will be poured [on] (my) head, quicklime on to my crown” in burial (CML, 109, lines 36–37). Another whole set of occurrences of this root refer to the metal smith (e.g., the one who pours silver into a cast; see WUS, 207; Fisher 2:61–62).

    3. In the Aram. Sefire Treaties the vb. נְסַךְ occurs 4× with the meaning to provide (נְסַךְ) or to not provide (with negative particle) food (לְחֶם) (Fitzmyer, 14–15, line 26; 18–19, line 38; 96–97, lines 5 and 7, and the remarks on 108–9). Similarly, in biblical Aram. we find, “Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented (לְנַסָּכָה) to him” (Dan 2:46, pael inf. const. vb.); note also, “With this money be sure to buy bulls, rams and male lambs, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings (נִסְכֵּיהֹון), and sacrifice them on the altar of the temple of your God in Jerusalem” (Ezra 7:17). In other inscriptions we find also the meaning to cast (various metals) (DISO, 180; cf. also Syr., to smelt or cast metal). This is the exclusive meaning of the root in Phoen. and Pun. (see DISO, 180; R. S. Tomback, A Comparative Semitic Lexicon of the Phoenician and Punic Languages, SBLDS 32, 1978, 214–15, nsk, caster (of metals), and nskt, molten image, statue or metal jar). Arab. has the same vb. meaning to worship (J. M. Cowan (ed.), H. Wehr, A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, 3d ed., 1976, 962), which derives originally from the meaning pour out (BDB, 650).

    OT 1. The vb. נָסַךְ occurs 24× overall in the OT (Even-Shoshan, [764] 26×, but Prov 8:23 and Isa 25:7 belong under נָסַךְ, entwine, weave, according to HALAT 703; cf. also Dan 2:46 for biblical Aram.). The 7× in the q. stem are diverse: 2× with the meaning pour out in the casting of metal idols (Isa 40:19; 44:10), 3× for pouring out drink offerings (Exod 30:9; Hos 9:4; also Isa 30:1, where forming an alliance is lit. to pour out a drink offering; cf. esp. the hi. below), 1× in the expression “The Lord has brought (lit., poured) over you a deep sleep” (Isa 29:10), and 1× in Ps 2:6, “I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill,” where the underlying expression might mean “I have poured out (my libation in the consecration of) my king” (HALAT 703 puts it under ni. rather than q. [cf. the LXX passive translation], but the essential meaning is the same; cf. also the other option given there from סָכַךְ, be shaped). In the latter instance, another possible derivation is another Akk. nasāku A, which can mean to assign s.o. to a work assignment (CAD N 2, 18, meaning 4).

    The single pi. and all the hi. and ho. occurrences apply to the pouring out of libations. The first canonical occurrence of both the vb. and its corresponding nom. is in Gen 35:14, “Jacob set up a stone pillar at the place where God had talked with him, and he poured out (וַיַּסֵּ֤ךְ) a drink offering (נֶסֶךְ) on it; he also poured (vb. יָצַק, #3668) oil on it.” Here and elsewhere a different vb. is used for consecration by means of the pouring out of oil. In another instance David refused to drink but, instead, poured out (נָסַךְ) the water that his three mighty men risked their lives to obtain for him (2 Sam 23:16 hi. = 1 Chron 11:18 pi.). On these occasions the pouring out of the water was a means of offering it to the Lord as an indication of devotion. The same act was sometimes done to show devotion to other gods in Israel, an act that provoked the Lord to anger against his people (e.g., Ezek 20:28; Jer 7:18; 19:13; 32:29; esp. Jer 44:17–19 [4×], 25 to the Queen of Heaven, apparently the well-known Babylonian goddess Ishtar; cf. 2 Kgs 16:13 for Ahaz pouring out libations on his new altar in the temple). Special libation vessels were made for the tabernacle in association with the table for the bread (Exod 25:29; 37:16, both ho.).

    Ps 16:4 is peculiar and difficult (cf. Kraus, 237; Craigie, 157): “The sorrows of those will increase who run after other gods. I will not pour out (vb. נָסַךְ) their libations (nom. נֶסֶךְ) of blood or take up their names on my lips.” It seems to refer to the illegitimate offering of blood as if it were something that one would normally drink, which was an abomination in Israel (cf. Lev 7:22–27).

     Willem VanGemeren, ed., New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1997), 113–115.


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  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 73


    Now you're just being dishonest. I am actually means 'to be' it was changed I AM. Obviously I overloaded you. It was trinitarian thing to hide the actual meaning. Now this deceptive translation makes the false claim that I AM means God.... It does not. It simply means I exist.

    Original Word: εἰμί

    Strong's Concordance

    eimi: I exist, I am

    Original Word: εἰμί

    Part of Speech: Verb

    Transliteration: eimi

    Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee')

    Definition: I exist, I am

    Usage: I am, exist.

    When changed from to be and it now I am which mean what??? I EXIST.

  • @BroRando Now you're just being dishonest. ...

    Please elaborate what appears dishonest. Honestly lacking is your understanding of Koine Greek language expression. Strong's Concordance quotes show simplistic summary of Greek word meanings, which lacks range of Greek usage expressions & word spelling variations.

    @BroRando ...  I am actually means 'to be' it was changed I AM

    Please learn how to quote individual paragraph(s). My previous reply (quoted by you in entirety) does not have I AM (all caps). Hence, am not understanding to what your reply is responding.

    @BroRando ... Obviously I overloaded you. 

    How so ? (reverse can easily be true since my replies include Greek & Hebrew language insights/interactions beyond Strong's simple summaries)

    By the way, follower of "The Way" describes me => Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6 LEB)


    Analytical lexicons include all word forms (Strong's dictionary form with the rest). 'The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament' includes: (... leaving out thousands of verse references & 93 different word forms)

    εἰμί (eimi), be. Cognate words: ἄπειμι, ἀπρόσιτος, εἴσειμι, ἔνειμι, ἔνι, ἔξειμι, ἔξεστιν, ἔπειμι, ἐπιούσιος, κατεξουσιάζω, ὄντως, πάρειμι, περιούσιος, συμπάρειμι, σύνειμι. Heb. equiv. fr. LXX: היה (470×), הוּא (247×); + 125 more. Aram. equiv. fr. LXX: הוה (5x), הוּא (2x), הִיא (2x), אִנִּין (1x), בִּינָה (1x), הִמּוֹ (1x), עבד (1x)

    13.1 (2839) to be ...

    13.4 (354) to be ...

    13.51 (1) to be ...

    13.69 (74) to be ... to exist ... to exists ...

    13.104 (54) to be ... to happen ...

    13.107 (1) to happen ...

    23.91 (1) to be ...

    33.136 (4) to be ...

    34.18 (1) to be ...

    58.67 (27) to be ... to belong ...

    58.68 (10) to be ... to represent ...

    65.56 (1) to be ...

    68.20 (1) to be ...

    71.1 (3) to be ... to be possible ...

    85.1 (281) to be ...

    87.49 (6) to be ...

    87.80 (1) to be ...

    88.166 (1) to be ...

    89.106 (29) to be ...

    Forms of εἰμί ...

     The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament (Logos Bible Software, 2011).

    Individual usage of verb εἰμί was assigined by into six subdomains of Semanic Domain 13 "Be, Become, Exist, Happen" plus assigned into 11 other Semantic Domains: 23, 33, 34, 58, 65, 68, 71, 85, 87, 88, 89. (# assigned): e.g. 13.1 has 2,839 assignments of individual εἰμί usages.

    Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains by Eugene Nida; Johannes P. Louw has 93 numbered Semantic Domains (# before .) with lots of numbered subdomains (# after .): e.g. Semanic Domain 13 "Be, Become, Exist, Happen" has 163 subdomains:

    13 Be, Become, Exist, Happen

    Outline of Subdomains

    A State (13.1–13.47)

    B Change of State (13.48–13.68)

    C Exist (13.69–13.103)

    D Happen (13.104–13.163)

    A State (13.1–13.47)

    13.1 εἰμί : to possess certain characteristics, whether inherent or transitory—‘to be.’ πραΰς εἰμι καὶ ταπεινὸς τῇ καρδίᾳ ‘I am gentle and humble in spirit’ Mt 11:29; ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν ‘because he was before me’ Jn 1:15; ἵνα ἡ χαρὰ ἡμῶν ᾖ πεπληρωμένη ‘in order that our joy might be complete’ 1 Jn 1:4; τοῦτο γὰρ εὐάρεστόν ἐστιν ἐν κυρίῳ ‘for this is well pleasing to the Lord’ Col 3:20; μακάριοι οἱ δοῦλοι ἐκεῖνοι ‘truly fortunate are those servants’ Lk 12:37.

    13.2 ἔχω ; φορέω : to be in a particular state or condition—‘to be, to bear.’

    ἔχω : εἶπεν δὲ ὁ ἀρχιερεύς, Εἰ ταῦτα οὕτως ἔχει; ‘the high priest asked him, Is this really so?’ Ac 7:1; πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας ἐθεράπευσεν ‘he healed all who were sick’ Mt 8:16.

    φορέω : καθὼς ἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ χοϊκοῦ ‘as we are in the likeness of the earthly’ or ‘as we bear the likeness of the earthly’ 1 Cor 15:49.

    13.3 γίνομαι : to possess certain characteristics, with the implication of their having been acquired—‘to be.’ γίνεσθε οὖν φρόνιμοι ὡς οἱ ὄφεις ‘therefore be wise as serpents’ Mt 10:16; διότι ἀγαπητοὶ ἡμῖν ἐγενήθητε ‘because you are dear to us’ 1 Th 2:8.

    13.4 εἰμί ; ὑπάρχω : to be identical with—‘to be.’

    εἰμί : σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ‘you are the Son of God’ Mk 3:11; οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀντίχριστος ‘this one is the antichrist’ 1 Jn 2:22; αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ ἐπαγγελία ‘this is the promise’ 1 Jn 2:25.

    ὑπάρχω : οὗτος ἄρχων τῆς συναγωγῆς ὑπῆρχεν ‘this man was the leader of the synagogue’ Lk 8:41.


     Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 148–149.


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