Why Study the Koine Greek Language with Peter Watts
Comments
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One can only obey God's word if one has correctly understood God's word.
That goes against God who says LEAN NOT ON YOUR UNDERSTANDING.
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The above is incorrect! Do you understand communication better by listening to an interpretation via a third party or by paying close attention to the wording, grammar, and syntax of the original document or speaker? Of course, first-hand knowledge is superior in accuracy to 2nd, just and 2nd hand knowledge is superior to 3rd, or fourth hand.
That is NOT from God.
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(QUESTION 1) To whom does "the Germans" refer to:
(a) All Germans or 100% of those who hold German nationality
(b) Random individuals in German that you encountered during your stay in the country.
(c) Germans that you encouterd that were unable to speak your language?
(d) German that you encounterd that were unwilling to speak your language?
(e) Germans that you encountered that were unhappy with the American Government?
(f) Germans that you encountered that were unhappy with the typical or stereotypical attitude of the American tourist?
(g) Your relatives or extended family?
(h) two or more of the above?
(i) Other?
(QUESTION 2) What make you feel that "the Germans" (whoever they are?) at one time in the past did not like Americans?
German relatives did not like Americans and spoke of people in their country not liking Americans.
The Germans that I encountered while I was in Germany did not like Americans and expressed it.
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@YourTruthGod said: That goes against God who says LEAN NOT ON YOUR UNDERSTANDING.
No, it simply goes against your interpretation of Proverbs 3:5-6 and the wider pericope where it is found.
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@YourTruthGod said: That is NOT from God.
Indeed my example that you replied to is not to be found in the Bible, but then again neither is a command(nor for that matter permission) to translate the Scriptures into English to be found in the Scriptures.
I would also add that none of the English translations are from God either, but rather these translations are from individuals, committees, and groups.
@YourTruthGod said: The Germans that I encountered while I was in Germany did not like Americans and expressed it.
Thank you for answering my question. I am curious as to why the Germans you encountered did not like Americans. Did they tell you the reason or give any hints as to why they did not like Americans?
Grace and Peace
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You did not answer my question ... nor did you apparently understand the point of my sample reference from Mt 5:29-30 which was simply to help you explain how you ar egiven understanding by Jesus when you obey Jesus' words. Does Jesus after you obey talk to you? how do you know it is Jesus talking to you? Does he talk to you in audible voice or just in your head? something else????
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@Mitchell asked @YourTruthGod
(QUESTION 1) To whom does "the Germans" refer to:
(a) All Germans or 100% of those who hold German nationality
(b) Random individuals in German that you encountered during your stay in the country.
(c) Germans that you encouterd that were unable to speak your language?
(d) German that you encounterd that were unwilling to speak your language?
(e) Germans that you encountered that were unhappy with the American Government?
(f) Germans that you encountered that were unhappy with the typical or stereotypical attitude of the American tourist?
(g) Your relatives or extended family?
(h) two or more of the above?
(i) Other?
I remember a movie from decades ago with Chevy Chase of Americans on a "European Vacation" .... 😂🤣😂
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@Wolfgang I remember a movie from decades ago with Chevy Chase of Americans on a "European Vacation" .... 😂🤣😂
😁😆🤣 ! I was in the first or second grade around the time that movie came out I believe.
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Maybe you didn't ask it the right way the first time the way that you intended?
So you just ignore the good revelation I shared with you about the scriptures you gave?
I do have a powerful testimony of when Jesus saved me.
He spoke to me outside of my head in a real voice.
I have heard him on one other occasion.
When I read the scriptures my eyes and heart are given understanding to the meaning, sometimes only after great studying.
I don't usually tell people that.
Thanks for asking.
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No, it simply goes against your interpretation of Proverbs 3:5-6 and the wider pericope where it is found.
You don’t like what I said about Proverbs 3:5-6?
That scripture says plainly not to lean on your understanding, but to do what He says and He will make it understandable to you.
Indeed my example that you replied to is not to be found in the Bible, but then again neither is a command(nor for that matter permission) to translate the Scriptures into English to be found in the Scriptures.
The scriptures show us that God brings His word to us in our language. Just look at all the people from different languages at Pentecost hearing the word of God in their language.
In Acts 2:5 we see that there were JEWS from EVERY NATION. The Jews are the people God said that He would speak to through men of strange tongues...
Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
In addition, in Acts 2:6 we see that the Jews from every nation spoke in many different languages...
Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Just look at the list of places the Jews had come from...
Acts 2:8-Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"
Please note that the word for languages is the name "tongues," see Acts 2:11.
I would also add that none of the English translations are from God either, but rather these translations are from individuals, committees, and groups.
Right, and that is more proof that translators also do not get understanding by translating.
God gives understanding to those who obey Him.
Thank you for answering my question. I am curious as to why the Germans you encountered did not like Americans. Did they tell you the reason or give any hints as to why they did not like Americans?
When on a family vacation in Germany, sometimes we stayed in a hotel and the people working at the hotel didn’t know my mom understood German and she would tell us what people were saying about us. The relatives say that the Germans don’t like the American military bases in Germany, and they say the soldiers go to clubs and get drunk and start fights, and their wives don’t look nice and respectable when they go to town. Some Germans were injured in the war and are angry at the Americans. Some say the Americans think they are better than everyone. And, some others say they are worried their children will go to America and never come back. I just have only heard bad things and have seen too many scowling looks.
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I have never heard of it or seen it, but since you brought it up I did a google search about it and now I have to watch it seems really funny.
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Heello
@YourTruthGod asked: You don’t like wyhat I said about Proverbs 3:5-6?
I respectful disagree with your interpretation on this particular verse. In other words I respect your right to hold your own opinion and I accept you as my brother in Christ, but I understand this verse differently.
@YourTruthGod stated: The scriptures show us that God brings His word to us in our language. Just look at all the people from different languages at Pentecost hearing the word of God in their language.
Well, yes God through the Holy Spirit in the events recorded in Acts 2:1-11, absolutely, provided divine interpretation for Jewish pilgrims from all nations. Now, does that then mean that God continues to do the same today?
@YourTruthGod stated: Right, and that is more proof that translators also do not get understanding by translatingunderst.
Agreed! And, again the purpose (at least in mind) of learning Biblical languages is not so that one can make yet another translation, but rather so that one can read and thus hear scriptures in their original form, or as close to the original form as possible.
I mentioned before that I studied Japanese language and culture. I did not do so in order to translate my wife's words, but rather to understand her in her language and to better appreciate the way that she crafted her own words, sentences, and thoughts of heart as close as possible. Can anyone understand another 100%? No, I do not think so, but non-the-less I also wanted to get as close possible to knowing her well and avoiding needless misunderstandings. Was it worth it? Yes, absolutely as my culture, ways of thinking, and expression or often the polar opposite of hers there would have been many misunderstanding between us. And, I believe knowing her language and social construct have greatly helped to minimize misunderstanding.
@YourTruthGod said: God gives understanding to those who obey Him.
This how Psalm 111:10 has been occasionally interpreted even though the verse does not literately state the above that way in the Hebrew.
In Psalm 119:34 the psalmist ask for understanding so he can follow God's Torah (instructions). So there it would seem that understanding comes before obeying. Early in Psalm 119:18 the psalmist ask for God to open his eye so that he might see the Torah(instructions) and thus follow them.
In the same way James 1:5 says something to the effect of is anyone lacks wisdom they should simply(in trust of course) ask the LORD of it.
@YourTruthGod claimed: That scripture says plainly not to lean on your understanding, but to do what He says and He will make it understandable to you.
Actually Proverbs 3:5 and Proverbs 3:6 says something similar but refers to one trusting in the Lord rather in one's self (not to understanding of the scriptures), and to Lord making one's path straight not the Lord making the scriptures understandable.
@YourTruthGod said: When on a family vacation in Germany, sometimes we stayed in a hotel and the people working at the hotel didn’t know my mom understood German and she would tell us what people were saying about us...
Thank you for the explanation! I think I have a much better understanding now. And, I can understand full how hurtful it can feel to be judge just because of your citizenship or race and be lumped into a stereotype unfairly. This must have been very painful for You and your family! My heart goes out to you!
@YourTruthGod said: The relatives say that the Germans don’t like the American military bases in Germany, and they say the soldiers go to clubs and get drunk and start fights
I think a lot of people around the world are not very happy about having bases in their countries, and sometimes the present of bases do cause serious problems see this example one , example two, I could go on with some other examples but that should be enough for now. Anyway most Japanese I have meet do not hate all Americans (or at least I hope not), however, many not like the present of the bases, others like the bases because they bring in money and sometimes jobs to some of the smaller communities.
@YourTruthGod said: Some say the Americans think they are better than everyone.
The staff at the company I work for in Japan also hold this impression of Americans in general. Part of this impression is due to misunderstand of the way some Americans communicate, and some other big culture difference.
@YourTruthGod said: And, some others say they are worried their children will go to America and never come back
Actually, my Japanese mother in-law had the same worry at first. She also worried that her grandchildren would not be able to speak in Japanese and her dialect with her. I think those were genuine concerns rather than hate. However, I can understand how someone saying to you might not feel very comfortable.
Grace and Peace
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@YourTruthGod You don’t like what I said about Proverbs 3:5-6?
That scripture says plainly not to lean on your understanding, but to do what He says and He will make it understandable to you.
Where does Prov 3:5-6 say what you are interpreting it to say? Where do these verses say that God will give you understanding or make something understandable to you?
As becomes clear from the passage in Rom 10:9-17, in order to believe and obey God's words and commandments, one must first hear and understand them, and then one can have faith, trust in them, believe them and do them.
All examples in Scripture of people of faith show this very principle .... cp. Abraham, if he would not have understood what God's command to him while at Ur, or later while he was at Haran, etc. he would have never been able to believe and acts by getting on the road and doing what he had understood God to have told him. Abraham provides also sort of an example of having leaned on his own (or Sara's) ideas and understanding instead of continuing to trust in what he knew from God what had promised him about the son who would come of his line.
You seem to hold to some quite often heard idea about believing => "you don't need to understand, "just do it" and God (or perhaps Nike?) will give you understanding". You just don't seem to consider that one would not even know what to just do so that understanding could be given.
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Heello
I respectful disagree with your interpretation on this particular verse. In other words I respect your right to hold your own opinion and I accept you as my brother in Christ, but I understand this verse differently.
Hellooo Mitchel.
Jesus says he will reveal himself to those who obey him. I know that I read Proverbs 3:5, and 6 before I was saved and I took great comfort in it. I didn't understand why Jesus said to do this and that in the New Testament, and when I read that scripture in Proverbs, I thought, okay, I don't understand what Jesus is talking about when I read the Bible, but I trust him that nothing bad will happen and I am going to just do what he says. I have been saved and given much understanding.
Well, yes God through the Holy Spirit in the events recorded in Acts 2:1-11, absolutely, provided divine interpretation for Jewish pilgrims from all nations. Now, does that then mean that God continues to do the same today?
We don’t need speaking in tongues today.
We have the Bible in all languages and the Bible is finished.
Agreed! And, again the purpose (at least in mind) of learning Biblical languages is not so that one can make yet another translation, but rather so that one can read and thus hear scriptures in their original form, or as close to the original form as possible.
The New Testament was written in ancient Greek, so a person isn’t going to have a teacher from ancient times to help, but only Jesus, after you obey him. Don't you think you have understanding?
I mentioned before that I studied Japanese language and culture. I did not do so in order to translate my wife's words, but rather to understand her in her language and to better appreciate the way that she crafted her own words, sentences, and thoughts of heart as close as possible. Can anyone understand another 100%? No, I do not think so, but non-the-less I also wanted to get as close possible to knowing her well and avoiding needless misunderstandings. Was it worth it? Yes, absolutely as my culture, ways of thinking, and expression or often the polar opposite of hers there would have been many misunderstanding between us. And, I believe knowing her language and social construct have greatly helped to minimize misunderstanding.
I think that is really lovely what you said. You are so smart for sure.
I do want to say though how lovely it is that Jesus gives understanding to those who obey and no one has to study another language.
This how Psalm 111:10 has been occasionally interpreted even though the verse does not literately state the above that way in the Hebrew.
In Psalm 119:34 the psalmist ask for understanding so he can follow God's Torah (instructions). So there it would seem that understanding comes before obeying. Early in Psalm 119:18 the psalmist ask for God to open his eye so that he might see the Torah(instructions) and thus follow them.
In the same way James 1:5 says something to the effect of is anyone lacks wisdom they should simply(in trust of course) ask the LORD of it.
God gives it to those who obey and ask.
Here is more proof, who is the Psalmist who is doing the asking? See?
Actually Proverbs 3:5 and Proverbs 3:6 says something similar but refers to one trusting in the Lord rather in one's self (not to understanding of the scriptures), and to Lord making one's path straight not the Lord making the scriptures understandable.
Where do you think one is hearing God’s words if not from the scriptures to which we might not understand but will be given understanding if we trust God and do what He says?
Thank you for the explanation! I think I have a much better understanding now. And, I can understand full how hurtful it can feel to be judge just because of your citizenship or race and be lumped into a stereotype unfairly. This must have been very painful for You and your family! My heart goes out to you!
Thank you so much, it is so kind of you and means so much to me. It was very hurtful to us siblings, and it hurt my mom. There was a time when we walked past a couple of maids to our room they said something in German to each other, and my mom said something in a very sad tone back to them in German. They looked shocked. We asked my mom what did they say and what did you say back? My mom said they said to each other those d___ Amies should go home. My mom told them they are [meaning her kids] just as much German as you are and have every right to be here. I said what are Amies? My mom said it is a derogatory way of saying Americans.
I think a lot of people around the world are not very happy about having bases in their countries, and sometimes the present of bases do cause serious problems see this example one , example two, I could go on with some other examples but that should be enough for now. Anyway most Japanese I have meet do not hate all Americans (or at least I hope not), however, many not like the present of the bases, others like the bases because they bring in money and sometimes jobs to some of the smaller communities.
I remember asking my mom why the American bases are in Germany. She said to make sure they never become enemies again, and so that the American military can be close to any other enemies in other countries that Germany is close to for their aircraft can reach and so their rockets can reach. My mom loved America, and she said that Germany should be glad that the Americans didn’t completely take over their country as they could have after a war.
Now that Trump is in office our military will probably leave all the countries our bases are in because we have ways to reach any far away enemies now and don’t have to be physically close to them.
The staff at the company I work for in Japan also hold this impression of Americans in general. Part of this impression is due to misunderstand of the way some Americans communicate, and some other big culture difference.
I think it is so wonderful that you understand exactly what my German experience was like.
Actually, my Japanese mother in-law had the same worry at first. She also worried that her grandchildren would not be able to speak in Japanese and her dialect with her. I think those were genuine concerns rather than hate. However, I can understand how someone saying to you might not feel very comfortable.
When I was in Germany, my cousin told her mother that she would be going to America soon, and my aunt cried, and I do think she might have hated America. Her daughter ended up going to America with her little three year old daughter, and not long after that my aunt had a stroke and died. The saying is that she missed her daughter too much and her grand baby.
Well you gave me a trip down memory lane. Thanks for listening.
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@YourTruthGod I remember asking my mom why the American bases are in Germany. She said to make sure they never become enemies again, and so that the American military can be close to any other enemies in other countries that Germany is close to for their aircraft can reach and so their rockets can reach. My mom loved America, and she said that Germany should be glad that the Americans didn’t completely take over their country as they could have after a war.
a nice example of the results of mainstream propaganda brainwashing ....no real self-acquired knowledge of historical facts. The USA fairy-tale dream about world hegemony continues.
Has anyone noticed that no country where USA troops entered has usually regained liberty and sovereignty unless they were able to throw them out? In the events leading up to unification of GDR and FRG in 1990, and even long before that in the early 1950ies, the leadership of the USSR suggested to make a peace treaty with Germany ... who do you think opposed such an idea of peace treaty and instead wanted to keep the occupation status in place ??? Apparently not those who were interested in having peace ...
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@YourTruthGod said: I know that I read Proverbs 3:5, and 6 before I was saved and I took great comfort in it
I am glad you did so and I in no way dismiss your experience.
@YourTruthGod said: We don’t need speaking in tongues today.
Agreed there is no need for the divine gift of speaking in tongues today!
@YourTruthGod said We have the Bible in all languages and the Bible is finished.
Agreed, we have translation or interpretations of Bible in most of the world's languages. And, yes I believe that the canon of Scripture is closed!
@YourTruthGod said: no one has to study another language.
Of, course! But, just because people do not have to do something, does not mean that can't or should not do something. Rather it means that people have the liberty or freedom to do or not do it.
Now, look at the Church today how many people in your community have actually studied Biblical languages? By the way I do not mean word studies or the like, I mean actually put in the time to acquire the languages. I seriously doubt that anyone in the average Christian congregation in the states actually has. Most have chosen not to study the Biblical languages for one reason or another. Maybe some believe they can't learn another language or that they have to be smart to learn, but I would like to tell them that anyone can learn another language if they really want to.
@YourTruthGod said: I think it is so wonderful that you understand exactly what my German experience was like
Most of the Americans I have meet in Japan do not fit the 'arrogant American stereotype' but rather had had a number different personalities. There are always a few apples that spoil it for everyone else, and then there is also the media, too.
@YourTruthGod said: Well you gave me a trip down memory lane. Thanks for listening.
You are very welcomed. But, actually I am always fasicinated to hear of peoples experiences in a country not of their own. I have lived outside of my country of birth for about 20 years, now and I like comparing and contrasting experiences as well as reaction to those experiences.
Grace and Peace
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@YourTruthGod said: no one has to study another language.
@Mitchell replied: Of, course! But, just because people do not have to do something, does not mean that can't or should not do something. Rather it means that people have the liberty or freedom to do or not do it.
No one has to do a lot of things ... If I had not learned another language in school, a lot of things in my later life would have been quite different and mostly it would not have been for the better. Having learned the language, I could understand those who spoke English and was able to communicate with them directly. Since I went to highschool in a school branch with natural science majors (maths, physics, chemistry) rather than the branch with Greek and Latin majors, I later on had to do more and extra work during university studies where a certain level were required as part of the curriculum.
Now, look at the Church today how many people in your community have actually studied Biblical languages? By the way I do not mean word studies or the like, I mean actually put in the time to acquire the languages. I seriously doubt that anyone in the average Christian congregation in the states actually has.
I don't think that it would be any different in any other country. In many congregations of the large denominational organizations, people never even bring a Bible to the service, and a minority is reading the Bible in a little more detail in their native language during a bible study meeting or similar. In other words, very little interest is generated among the congregation by the pastoral and teacher ministers in such churches for Bible reading and Bible study ... which manifests itself by a rather big lack of knowledge of the Biblical scriptures.
Unfortunately, Biblical languages are not even in the picture in many places .... because even ministers are not required to learn such, and subsequently are themselves then not able to do much in those languages either.
When I was younger and getting started in Bible matters, it was in German, and there were, for example, NO interlinear Greek-German NT editions available, so that there was no real way around learning NT Greek to some degree if I wanted to get a look at the text underlying the German translation. Then I met some US folks who had Greek-English interlinear versions at their disposal ... and I was jealous for a while, until I realized that this meant well tool actually furthered laziness and cutting corners among quite a number of them, because they figured that they could gain knowledge of the Greek text, etc. Interlinear version turned out to be a way to a false estimation of expertise ....
Now, interlinear versions are a great tool when you can actually read both languages ... as you do't have to switch books or software windows while reading, but you have both almost in one line of text and you see both together. But don't be fooled into thinking you become knowledgeable in Greek via looking at interlinear versions. Same goes for the use of analytical concordances and morphological tagging etc in Bible software => these are tremendous tool with great value for those who know and can read Greek at least to some degree.
Most have chosen not to study the Biblical languages for one reason or another. Maybe some believe they can't learn another language or that they have to be smart to learn, but I would like to tell them that anyone can learn another language if they really want to.
I agree ... from my own experience - cp. above - I would add that nowadays the false idea of getting away with "shortcut" modern technology trickery (interlinear, dictionary, software tool are sufficient) may also be a reason why some do not want to put in the work "to do it right", When you are stuck with no "shortcuts", you will most likely be more easily motivated to put in the necessary work
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@Wolfgang No one has to do a lot of things ... If I had not learned another language in school, a lot of things in my later life would have been quite different and mostly it would not have been for the better. Having learned the language, I could understand those who spoke English and was able to communicate with them directly.
Thanks for the feedback and for sharing the anecdote. Acquiring a language takes time and effort but I believe it always opens up new possibilities and opportunities. Actually, It seems to me that the only people who proudly claim learning another language is not necessary (or useful) are only those who have not learned another language.
@Wolfgang In other words, very little interest is generated among the congregation by the pastoral and teacher ministers in such churches for Bible reading and Bible study ... which manifests itself by a rather big lack of knowledge of the Biblical scriptures.
agreed I this this is a major problem.
@Wolfgang I realized that this meant well tool actually furthered laziness and cutting corners among quite a number of them, because they figured that they could gain knowledge of the Greek text, etc. Interlinear version turned out to be a way to a false estimation of expertise ....
In total agreement with you here. And, it pains me to say this but in general I think Anglophones tend to be highly lazy when it comes to learning other languages.
@Wolfgang Same goes for the use of analytical concordances and morphological tagging etc in Bible software => these are tremendous tool with great value for those who know and can read Greek at least to some degree.
Again in agreement, and I would those who know both how to set up the their search quires correctly and to interpret the results of those quires.
@Wolfgang When you are stuck with no "shortcuts", you will most likely be more easily motivated to put in the necessary work
Yes, this point applies even to modern languages. I have noticed that, often, expats living in Japan who have Japanese friends or partners who speak decent English (or whatever their mother language is) tend not to put in the work to advance their Japanese language skills. The same seems to be true for those who work for companies where they can easily communicate with their peers and supervisors in their native language.
Thanks for the feedback and the for sharing your experiences and thoughts on the issue.
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@Mitchell And, it pains me to say this but in general I think Anglophones tend to be highly lazy when it comes to learning other languages.
This is what seems to be the case. But here is something one might not realize at first ....
English is a rather simple language, by far not as diversified, complex and precise as - for example - Latin, Greek, or even German, French, etc. Thosee languages have far more specific word forms to distinguish between gender, number and grammatical case than English does. Same goes for sentence structure possibilities to vary and specify emphasis in a statement. Thus, te learning curve for Latin or Greek is rather steep in comparison to English (or even German). Learning English is in many cases rather easy compared to learning English.
I would say that in general, it is definitely easier to learn a different language if you come from a more complex language and learn an easy one. Why? You already know and are familiar with underlying linguistic requirements and your base level of language use is higher than what is required in the new language. The opposite direction involves perhaps a lot of totally new things to be acquired first before you get to actually learning the language and reading or speaking it.
Illustration: I have a certain expertise and technical level of playing the violin ... Depending on the level of difficulty of a piece of music, I could perhaps play it on first sight (if it is within my violin level frame and comfort zone), or it could be necessary to first put in practice (if wiwthin my level, but a bit above my zone) or it may be impossible for me to learn and play (if it is totally above my level). Now, a violinist of orchestra level or soloist level would have absolutely no problem at all learning and then playing a piece with which I am perhaps already struggling or which I just can't ever play.
PS: I also find it more difficult for me to learn Hebrew or Aramaic than Greek for some reason ... they are simply of a totally different type/family of languages (Semitic rather than Indo-germanic). I suppose the same would be true for me with Chinese, Korean or Japanese and similar languages.
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@Wolfgang Learning English is in many cases rather easy compared to learning English.
Trying to write a little faster is only sometimes a good idea 😉, other times it causes mistakes .... The above sentence should have been:
Learning English is in many cases rather easy compared to learning Latin or Greek.
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a nice example of the results of mainstream propaganda brainwashing ....no real self-acquired knowledge of historical facts. The USA fairy-tale dream about world hegemony continues.
My mom wasn't brainwashed. Who brainwashed her? She came to America when she was 28 years old and has said the same thing and didn't change to what anyone brainwashed her to say.
Has anyone noticed that no country where USA troops entered has usually regained liberty and sovereignty unless they were able to throw them out? In the events leading up to unification of GDR and FRG in 1990, and even long before that in the early 1950ies, the leadership of the USSR suggested to make a peace treaty with Germany ... who do you think opposed such an idea of peace treaty and instead wanted to keep the occupation status in place ??? Apparently not those who were interested in having peace ...
I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you rephrase it?
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I am glad you did so and I in no way dismiss your experience.
Hi Mitchell, hope all is well with you.
Proverbs says what I said it says. God says lean not on your understanding, but do what God says to do and he will make your path straight/clear.
That is what He says to us in other scriptures, too.
Agreed there is no need for the divine gift of speaking in tongues today!
I am glad to have even more in agreement.
Agreed, we have translation or interpretations of Bible in most of the world's languages. And, yes I believe that the canon of Scripture is closed!
This is great, we have even more agreement.
Of, course! But, just because people do not have to do something, does not mean that can't or should not do something. Rather it means that people have the liberty or freedom to do or not do it.
Now, look at the Church today how many people in your community have actually studied Biblical languages? By the way I do not mean word studies or the like, I mean actually put in the time to acquire the languages. I seriously doubt that anyone in the average Christian congregation in the states actually has. Most have chosen not to study the Biblical languages for one reason or another. Maybe some believe they can't learn another language or that they have to be smart to learn, but I would like to tell them that anyone can learn another language if they really want to.
I don't think anyone can learn the Greek of the Bible. Who is their Koine Greek teacher?
There are many people who learn Hebrew and Greek and read the Bible hundreds of times but do not know God's Truth.
Learning Hebrew and Greek will do nothing for anyone when it comes to getting saved and when it comes to knowing God better.
Most of the Americans I have meet in Japan do not fit the 'arrogant American stereotype' but rather had had a number different personalities. There are always a few apples that spoil it for everyone else, and then there is also the media, too.
Yeah , it is strange how so many can think the same wrong things.
You are very welcomed. But, actually I am always fasicinated to hear of peoples experiences in a country not of their own. I have lived outside of my country of birth for about 20 years, now and I like comparing and contrasting experiences as well as reaction to those experiences.
Please share more of your experiences. Do you come to visit America often? My mom said English is easier to learn than other languages. Was she just modest at learning it so well? I do wonder how is it that so many from other languages learn to speak English.
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@YourTruthGod wrote
My mom wasn't brainwashed. Who brainwashed her? She came to America when she was 28 years old and has said the same thing and didn't change to what anyone brainwashed her to say.
Did you read my statement to which you replied with the above? It seems, you did not
@Wolfgang wrote:
Has anyone noticed that no country where USA troops entered has usually regained liberty and sovereignty unless they were able to throw them out? In the events leading up to unification of GDR and FRG in 1990, and even long before that in the early 1950ies, the leadership of the USSR suggested to make a peace treaty with Germany ... who do you think opposed such an idea of peace treaty and instead wanted to keep the occupation status in place ??? Apparently not those who were interested in having peace ...
@YourTruthGod replied
I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you rephrase it?
Yes, you have no idea ... and seemingly do not see what I wrote despite the fact that it is right in front of your eyes ... Instead of me rephrasing, you should investigate the facts to which I referred. All rephrasing on my part can not do what is needed on your part. There is a saying with which I would think many English speakers are familiar: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
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@YourTruthGod said: Hi Mitchell, hope all is well with you.
Thank you! I hope all well with you as well.
@YourTruthGod said: There are many people who learn Hebrew and Greek and read the Bible hundreds of times ...
I seriously doubt this.
However, if that were really the case then that for me is even more of a reason why true Christians could benefit from Koine Greek and classical Hebrew.
@YourTruthGod said: Learning Hebrew and Greek will do nothing for anyone when it comes to getting saved and when it comes to knowing God better.
Actually this is not true, for I would not have recognized Jesus(Yeshua which actually does mean Yeh/Yah's salvation) was the Christ (Moshiach) had I not known Hebrew! For, the longest time I thought Jesus was related to Zeus because of the way the English version of his named sounds and I assumed that Christ was a last name rather than the title it actually is. In past time rejected Christianity as a Greek-Roman pagan religion.
@YourTruthGod said: Please share more of your experiences. Do you come to visit America often?
Sure, I will be more than happy to share my experiences with you, and I would also be happy to hear your experiences, too.
In the last 20 years or so I have visited the USA about three or four times.
@YourTruthGod said: My mom said English is easier to learn than other languages.
If, your mother's native language is German then I would imagine that English was easier for her because English or Anglo-Saxon is historically related to German.
Whether a foreign language is easy or difficult is often very dependent on your native language relation to the language you are studying. For example for modern Hebrew speakers(and people who have masted classical Hebrew) Arabic and Aramaic are easier than Russian because they share a lot of the same grammar and cognates. For Japanese speakers Korean is much easier to learn than English because Japanese and Korean share the same grammar and a little of the same vocabulary. Japanese however has traditionally been considered difficult (or rather more time consuming to learn) for English speakers because of the grammar, vocab, and the writing systems are so different from English. French and Spanish continue to remain that top languages Americans enroll in. American or native English speakers do not have to spend a lot of time on vocab when learning French, however Spanish is probably a little easier for English speakers.
@YourTruthGod said: I do wonder how is it that so many from other languages learn to speak English.
Within Asia I find many have studied English but very few can actually speak it proficiently. However, outside of America if people are actually speaking English it more than likely has to do with the past British attempt at colonization of the world and the second reason in my opinion would be for money (or business).
English has achieved prime status by becoming the most widely spoken language in the world – if one disregards proficiency – ahead of Mandarin Chinese and Spanish. English is spoken in 101 countries, while Arabic is spoken in 60, French in 51, Chinese in 33, and Spanish in 31. From one small island, English has gone on to acquire lingua franca status in international business, worldwide diplomacy, and science.
https://theconversation.com/the-english-language-is-the-worlds-achilles-heel-93817
Now, I on the other hand wonder why so few native American English speakers (as well as other native English speakers) attempt to study other languages and even fewer go on to acquiring a high level of proficiency? Why do native English speakers tend to be monolingual?
On the other hand in terms of languages spoken nation wide America(USA) and attempted languages studied America surpasses Japan hands down. The Japanese also tend to be monolingual even though most of the younger generation have taken 3 requried years of English in JHS and 3 years in High School (however, that my friend is another story well worth investigating).
Grace and Peace
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@Mitchell wrote
Now, I on the other hand wonder why so few native American English speakers (as well as other native English speakers) attempt to study other languages and even fewer go on to acquiring a high level of proficiency? Why do native English speakers tend to be monolingual?
MY very simple answer is that those folks have learned from childhood on that they are "the world" and thus expect other folks from other non-English speaking places to learn and speak English. I have seen plenty, plenty of times how US Americans tourists coming to Europe are dumbfounded to realize that not everybody speaks English ... "why don't they understand what I am saying? how can it be that they don't speak English which is the language of the world?" .....
They believe there is no need for them to learn English because everybody else is more or less "forced" into learning English ... politics and power have done their thing. Since the USA dominated much of the world after 1945, many countries' politicians and economic leadership have pushed English and USAmerican "culture" to the end that people have just about lost their own high cultural heritage and language within only a few decades .... instead of high level poetry, high level "classical" music, cultural traditions of centuries, what you get now are English slogans, slang, entertainment of lowest level music, subverted perverted "modern drug and evil promoting culture" ....
Sound and sober character, uprightness, excellence, honesty, love, goodness, etc .... have been replaced by the type of "greatness" promoted today by the stars and hits of Hollywood ....
Few there are who dare to call it as it is and to stand up and raise their voice to point out such matters. ...
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@Wolfgang said: Few there are who dare to call it as it is and to stand up and raise their voice to point out such matters. ...
Thank you for calling it as it is. I think your message is one that will be hard for some Americans to hear, but I think it is one that they need hear to hear more often.
@YourTruthGod said: There are many people who ... read the Bible ... but do not know God's Truth.
Yes, I believe that there are many people regardless of language who read parts of the canon we called Bible but have misinterpreted it and ignored it's message.
Just because someone is reading a translation of the Bible in their native tongue or in English does not automatically mean they are going to understand what they are reading nor that everyone is going to magically agree on everything. Case and point the vast majority of new Christian denominations, contradictory theologies, and cults were created in Great Britain and the U.S.A by individuals who could only proficiently read English translations of the Bible. When I look at the data it leads me to believe that reading in Bible in English translation is much more of a problem that reading it in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.
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I asked you to explain it to me if you don't want to then don't make it up that I didn't read it.
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I seriously doubt this.
You seriously doubt that people who know Hebrew and Greek have read the Bible hundreds of times?
However, if that were really the case then that for me is even more of a reason why true Christians could benefit from Koine Greek and classical Hebrew.
Why?
Actually this is not true, for I would not have recognized Jesus(Yeshua which actually does mean Yeh/Yah's salvation) was the Christ (Moshiach) had I not known Hebrew! For, the longest time I thought Jesus was related to Zeus because of the way the English version of his named sounds and I assumed that Christ was a last name rather than the title it actually is. In past time rejected Christianity as a Greek-Roman pagan religion.
You didn't need to learn Hebrew to learn that. You needed someone to teach you in English that your beliefs were wrong.
Sure, I will be more than happy to share my experiences with you, and I would also be happy to hear your experiences, too.
In the last 20 years or so I have visited the USA about three or four times.
You don't feel homesick for America? I still feel homesick for the city in California where I grew up. ha
If, your mother's native language is German then I would imagine that English was easier for her because English or Anglo-Saxon is historically related to German.
Whether a foreign language is easy or difficult is often very dependent on your native language relation to the language you are studying. For example for modern Hebrew speakers(and people who have masted classical Hebrew) Arabic and Aramaic are easier than Russian because they share a lot of the same grammar and cognates. For Japanese speakers Korean is much easier to learn than English because Japanese and Korean share the same grammar and a little of the same vocabulary. Japanese however has traditionally been considered difficult (or rather more time consuming to learn) for English speakers because of the grammar, vocab, and the writing systems are so different from English. French and Spanish continue to remain that top languages Americans enroll in. American or native English speakers do not have to spend a lot of time on vocab when learning French, however Spanish is probably a little easier for English speakers.
I've tried many times to learn German and just never got it, wish my mom would have taught me as a child. Learning any Asian language for an English speaker has got to be the hardest. You are right about some languages being so similar it is easy, because I know of someone whose natural language is English, and they went to Spain, lived there for a while, and learned Spanish, then went to Italy to live and was easy for them to learn that language too because they are similar.
Within Asia I find many have studied English but very few can actually speak it proficiently. However, outside of America if people are actually speaking English it more than likely has to do with the past British attempt at colonization of the world and the second reason in my opinion would be for money (or business).
English has achieved prime status by becoming the most widely spoken language in the world – if one disregards proficiency – ahead of Mandarin Chinese and Spanish. English is spoken in 101 countries, while Arabic is spoken in 60, French in 51, Chinese in 33, and Spanish in 31. From one small island, English has gone on to acquire lingua franca status in international business, worldwide diplomacy, and science.
https://theconversation.com/the-english-language-is-the-worlds-achilles-heel-93817Now, I on the other hand wonder why so few native American English speakers (as well as other native English speakers) attempt to study other languages and even fewer go on to acquiring a high level of proficiency? Why do native English speakers tend to be monolingual?
On the other hand in terms of languages spoken nation wide America(USA) and attempted languages studied America surpasses Japan hands down. The Japanese also tend to be monolingual even though most of the younger generation have taken 3 requried years of English in JHS and 3 years in High School (however, that my friend is another story well worth investigating).
My mom said that since America won the war and is the world leader that is why all German children have to take English in school. She said if Russia would have been the world leader than they would have to learn Russian, or if Japan was the world leader than everyone would have to learn Japanese, etc.
I remember when a German cousin came to stay with us for three months tried hard to learn English. I tried to explain the way Americans talk and how it is a little different than what you learn in a book or school because when we talk our words are a little different, like 'want to' is 'wanna', and 'going to' is 'gunna', etc. That was hard for him to understand.
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Just because someone is reading a translation of the Bible in their native tongue or in English does not automatically mean they are going to understand what they are reading nor that everyone is going to magically agree on everything. Case and point the vast majority of new Christian denominations, contradictory theologies, and cults were created in Great Britain and the U.S.A by individuals who could only proficiently read English translations of the Bible. When I look at the data it leads me to believe that reading in Bible in English translation is much more of a problem that reading it in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.
I love debating scriptures and doctrines with anyone from any country and any denomination.
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@YourTruthGod said: You seriously doubt that people who know Hebrew and Greek have read the Bible hundreds of times?
No, rather I doubt that there are many people who have mastered Hebrew and Greek well enough to actually read the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) or the Greek NT proficiently.
@YourTruthGod said: Why?
In order to reach to better reach and teach such individuals as well as for apologetic reason when dealing with such individuals.
@YourTruthGod said: You didn't need to learn Hebrew to learn that. You needed someone to teach you in English that your beliefs were wrong.
I didn't learn Hebrew for that reason. I aquired Hebrew at a very early age before I was able to come to my own decisions, and I continued to use it because that is what I need to chant and read the text.
There were door to Christian missionaries/evangelist who attempt to tell me that my beliefs were wrong, but despite their passion they lacked the knowledge and the communication skills necessary to clarify what they were actually trying to communicate to me in away I could understand. Mostly I thought they were telling me about a Hellenistic religion. The missionaries never once stop to explain that Christ was a title that meant or that was a translation of Messiah, and that this was the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew scriptures. Had those missionaries followed Jesus example in in Luke 24:27 they might have better been able to communicate more clearly.
@YourTruthGod said: You don't feel homesick for America? I still feel homesick for the city in California where I grew up. ha
Actually, I do. Miss my family, food, and a number of aspects of American culture. I miss people standing up for what they believe in as well as having conversation/discussions like the one we are having right now.
unfortunately international flight prices for a family of four are very expensive and have continue to increase.
@YourTruthGod said: I know of someone whose natural language is English, and they went to Spain, lived there for a while, and learned Spanish, then went to Italy to live and was easy for them to learn that language too because they are similar.
Thank you for sharing this story! I love hearing stories like this.
@YourTruthGod I tried to explain the way Americans talk and how it is a little different than what you learn in a book or school because when we talk our words are a little different,
That was a very good point! And, one Japanese learners of English need to hear more, too.
@YourTruthGod said: My mom said...
I think your mom is wise and thoughtful
@YourTruthGod said: I love debating scriptures and doctrines with anyone from any country and any denomination.
Please don't stop. I think this is a good thing to do.
Grace and Peace
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No, rather I doubt that there are many people who have mastered Hebrew and Greek well enough to actually read the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) or the Greek NT proficiently.
Wow, good to know, so then why do you give clout to learning Hebrew and Greek?
There are people who think they know God's Truth better because they study Greek, and the ones I have debated are further from the Truth probably with the help of trying to change words in their English Bible.
I didn't learn Hebrew for that reason. I aquired Hebrew at a very early age before I was able to come to my own decisions, and I continued to use it because that is what I need to chant and read the text.
The truth remains the same, and you still could have been told in English that Jesus wasn't a Pagan God.
There were door to Christian missionaries/evangelist who attempt to tell me that my beliefs were wrong, but despite their passion they lacked the knowledge and the communication skills necessary to clarify what they were actually trying to communicate to me in away I could understand. Mostly I thought they were telling me about a Hellenistic religion. The missionaries never once stop to explain that Christ was a title that meant or that was a translation of Messiah, and that this was the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew scriptures. Had those missionaries followed Jesus example in in Luke 24:27 they might have better been able to communicate more clearly.
I have yet to meet a denomination that didn't teach some falseness.
Actually, I do. Miss my family, food, and a number of aspects of American culture. I miss people standing up for what they believe in as well as having conversation/discussions like the one we are having right now.
unfortunately international flight prices for a family of four are very expensive and have continue to increase.
I have been debating/discussing on the Internet in many different groups with many different people for many years, and you are the first one who has spoken to me like this. I'm not sure what all your beliefs are yet, but I think you are a good person and glad to discuss with you.
Thank you for sharing this story! I love hearing stories like this.
You are a rare person of much kindness.
That was a very good point! And, one Japanese learners of English need to hear more, too..
Right?! I think maybe someone just learning English should know that because it really does sound like completely different words...wanna, gunna, lemme, outta, dontcha, etc. I remember reading a book where the whole book was like that. It really flowed nicely.
I think your mom is wise and thoughtful
Thank you, Mitchel. She said a few things here and there that were really wise. She was so into wisdom. She was a Catholic but later in her life she was drawn to stuff like the wisdom of the Taoists, etc. She was proud of all her many books, and I felt bad to throw them away after she passed.
Please don't stop. I think this is a good thing to do.
People usually are really rude to me, not sure why.
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