John 14:9 --- " ... has seen Me has seen the Father"

What did Jesus mean with what he said?

John 14:8-9 (NASB95)
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Who did Philip think was "the Father"? Does Philip's question indicate that he thought Jesus was "the Father"?
What did Jesus state in his answer to Philip's question? Who did Jesus think was "the Father"?

Comments

  • For meaning, every word has context in a sentence. A sentence has context in a paragraph. A paragraph has context in a larger unit. Curious about your contextual observations for John 14:8-9 ? cultural ? historical ?

    Note: context affects speculation about what Philip is thinking, which changed a few days later. Also a few verses earlier has context relevant for discussing questions for Philip and Jesus.

    Keep Smiling :smile:

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
    For meaning, every word has context in a sentence. A sentence has context in a paragraph. A paragraph has context in a larger unit. Curious about your contextual observations for John 14:8-9 ? cultural ? historical ?

    Note: context affects speculation about what Philip is thinking, which changed a few days later. Also a few verses earlier has context relevant for discussing questions for Philip and Jesus.

    So then, let's see your context observations and what understanding you reach.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,324

    “I and my Father are one.. keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”(John 10:30;17:11)

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,261

    @Wolfgang said:
    What did Jesus mean with what he said?

    John 14:8-9 (NASB95)
    8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
    9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Who did Philip think was "the Father"? Does Philip's question indicate that he thought Jesus was "the Father"?
    What did Jesus state in his answer to Philip's question? Who did Jesus think was "the Father"?

    No, that is why Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. He and the Father are one. God.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @Dave_L said:
    “I and my Father are one.. keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”(John 10:30;17:11)

    Yes ... and in which regard are believers on Christ "one, AS WE (Jesus Father and Jesus) ARE {one}" ?
    Obviously, Jesus did not mean that his Father and he were ONE God, seeing that believers are not ONE God ... cp. the qualifying phrase "AS WE ARE" in Joh 17:11)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    What did Jesus mean with what he said?

    John 14:8-9 (NASB95)
    8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
    9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Who did Philip think was "the Father"? Does Philip's question indicate that he thought Jesus was "the Father"?
    What did Jesus state in his answer to Philip's question? Who did Jesus think was "the Father"?

    No, that is why Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. He and the Father are one. God.

    How could they have seen God, when Scripture rather clearly states that God is INVISIBLE??

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989
    edited January 30

    @Wolfgang said:
    What did Jesus mean with what he said?

    John 14:8-9 (NASB95)
    8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
    9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Who did Philip think was "the Father"? Does Philip's question indicate that he thought Jesus was "the Father"?
    What did Jesus state in his answer to Philip's question? Who did Jesus think was "the Father"?

    We need to step back and see what particularly did Jesus come to reveal to mankind when He came to earth?

    One should acknowledge Jesus came to reveal His GLORY or His character (John 1:14).
    By His gracious words, deeds, and miracles, Christ showed to fallen man what God was really like. He came to reveal the fullness of “grace and truth”. He came to sweep away the misconceptions about God’s character which Satan had attempted to portray from the beginning (Gen. 3:1-6). The text says that Jesus came and “dwelt among us” or, more meaningfully, He “tabernacled among us”.

    Thus, John clearly links the presence of the Lord manifested above the ark of the covenant in Old Testament times with the manifestation of Christ in human flesh (Exod. 25:22; Num. 7:89 (See Clarke).

    Jesus came to give the greatest display possible of the glory or character of God so that all would be without excuse (2 Cor. 4:6). By His life, Christ has redeemed Adam’s fall and has perfected a character of perfect obedience.

    Some have questioned how perfectly did Christ reveal the character of God while on earth. One readily see that Christ came in the “express IMAGE” or character of God (Heb. 1:3).

    Paul affirmed that Christ perfectly, exactly, represented the character of God. The Greek word translated “express image” in the New King James version is indeed “charakter”, from which we derive our English word “character”.

    • The Revised Standard Version uses the phrase “bears the very stamp of His nature”.
    • Moffat says “stamped with God’s own character” to convey the same idea.

    So, when Philip asked Jesus, “Show us the Father”, Jesus could confidently affirm, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father”. (John 14:8, 9). Truly, it may be said that Christ represented the character of God the Father fully.

    The word character is not used in the text of older translations of the Bible. Unmistakably God here indicates the basis of His greatness. It is His character. As we follow the discourse between God and Moses, we notice that God proclaimed His name to Moses (Exod. 34:5) and immediately indicated the character traits for which this name stands (v. 6).

    This loving character of God is communicated through no less than seven signs in John’s Gospel:

    • John 2:1-12 (Cana)
    • JN 4:46-54 (child healed)
    • JN 5:1-18 (lame man healed)
    • JN 6:1-15 (bread)
    • JN 6:16-21 (stormy seas calmed)
    • JN 9:1-41 (sight given)
    • JN 11:1-57 (Lazarus raised)

    In the character of God, are wisdom, purity, truth, goodness, and mercy combined, immutable and complete.”

    God’s character of love revealed in Christ is a constant theme:

    • “Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He [Christ] represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man.”
    • Love, cannot live without action.” CM

    SOURCE:
    -- Clarke, A. 1854. The Holy Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments: with a Commentary and Critical Notes, vol. V, pp. 532, 533).
    -- Klatt, Cynthia. "Genesis Teaches Maya Believers about the Character of God." International Journal of Frontier Missions 12 (1995):173-75.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    What did Jesus mean with what he said?

    John 14:8-9 (NASB95)
    8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
    9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Who did Philip think was "the Father"? Does Philip's question indicate that he thought Jesus was "the Father"?
    What did Jesus state in his answer to Philip's question? Who did Jesus think was "the Father"?

    We need to step back and see what particularly did Jesus come to reveal to mankind when He came to earth?

    One should acknowledge Jesus came to reveal His GLORY or His character (John 1:14).
    By His gracious words, deeds, and miracles, Christ showed to fallen man what God was really like. He came to reveal the fullness of “grace and truth”. He came to sweep away the misconceptions about God’s character which Satan had attempted to portray from the beginning (Gen. 3:1-6). The text says that Jesus came and “dwelt among us” or, more meaningfully, He “tabernacled among us”.

    Thus, John clearly links the presence of the Lord manifested above the ark of the covenant in Old Testament times with the manifestation of Christ in human flesh (Exod. 25:22; Num. 7:89 (See Clarke).

    Jesus came to give the greatest display possible of the glory or character of God so that all would be without excuse (2 Cor. 4:6). By His life, Christ has redeemed Adam’s fall and has perfected a character of perfect obedience.

    Some have questioned how perfectly did Christ reveal the character of God while on earth. One readily see that Christ came in the “express IMAGE” or character of God (Heb. 1:3).

    Paul affirmed that Christ perfectly, exactly, represented the character of God. The Greek word translated “express image” in the New King James version is indeed “charakter”, from which we derive our English word “character”.

    • The Revised Standard Version uses the phrase “bears the very stamp of His nature”.
    • Moffat says “stamped with God’s own character” to convey the same idea.

    So, when Philip asked Jesus, “Show us the Father”, Jesus could confidently affirm, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father”. (John 14:8, 9). Truly, it may be said that Christ represented the character of God the Father fully.

    The word character is not used in the text of older translations of the Bible. Unmistakably God here indicates the basis of His greatness. It is His character. As we follow the discourse between God and Moses, we notice that God proclaimed His name to Moses (Exod. 34:5) and immediately indicated the character traits for which this name stands (v. 6).

    This loving character of God is communicated through no less than seven signs in John’s Gospel:

    • John 2:1-12 (Cana)
    • JN 4:46-54 (child healed)
    • JN 5:1-18 (lame man healed)
    • JN 6:1-15 (bread)
    • JN 6:16-21 (stormy seas calmed)
    • JN 9:1-41 (sight given)
    • JN 11:1-57 (Lazarus raised)

    In the character of God, are wisdom, purity, truth, goodness, and mercy combined, immutable and complete.”

    God’s character of love revealed in Christ is a constant theme:

    • “Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He [Christ] represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man.”
    • Love, cannot live without action.” CM

    SOURCE:
    -- Clarke, A. 1854. The Holy Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments: with a Commentary and Critical Notes, vol. V, pp. 532, 533).
    -- Klatt, Cynthia. "Genesis Teaches Maya Believers about the Character of God." International Journal of Frontier Missions 12 (1995):173-75.

    Indeed ... I agree with the above information.

    And all of this has nothing whatever to do with Jesus actually is God ... it is the man Christ Jesus who displayed in his words and deeds the character of God, he said what God wanted said, he did what God wanted done. And that does NOT equal that Jesus was God himself (not a "person" of a Godhead)

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,261

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    What did Jesus mean with what he said?

    John 14:8-9 (NASB95)
    8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
    9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Who did Philip think was "the Father"? Does Philip's question indicate that he thought Jesus was "the Father"?
    What did Jesus state in his answer to Philip's question? Who did Jesus think was "the Father"?

    We need to step back and see what particularly did Jesus come to reveal to mankind when He came to earth?

    One should acknowledge Jesus came to reveal His GLORY or His character (John 1:14).
    By His gracious words, deeds, and miracles, Christ showed to fallen man what God was really like. He came to reveal the fullness of “grace and truth”. He came to sweep away the misconceptions about God’s character which Satan had attempted to portray from the beginning (Gen. 3:1-6). The text says that Jesus came and “dwelt among us” or, more meaningfully, He “tabernacled among us”.

    Thus, John clearly links the presence of the Lord manifested above the ark of the covenant in Old Testament times with the manifestation of Christ in human flesh (Exod. 25:22; Num. 7:89 (See Clarke).

    Jesus came to give the greatest display possible of the glory or character of God so that all would be without excuse (2 Cor. 4:6). By His life, Christ has redeemed Adam’s fall and has perfected a character of perfect obedience.

    Some have questioned how perfectly did Christ reveal the character of God while on earth. One readily see that Christ came in the “express IMAGE” or character of God (Heb. 1:3).

    Paul affirmed that Christ perfectly, exactly, represented the character of God. The Greek word translated “express image” in the New King James version is indeed “charakter”, from which we derive our English word “character”.

    • The Revised Standard Version uses the phrase “bears the very stamp of His nature”.
    • Moffat says “stamped with God’s own character” to convey the same idea.

    So, when Philip asked Jesus, “Show us the Father”, Jesus could confidently affirm, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father”. (John 14:8, 9). Truly, it may be said that Christ represented the character of God the Father fully.

    The word character is not used in the text of older translations of the Bible. Unmistakably God here indicates the basis of His greatness. It is His character. As we follow the discourse between God and Moses, we notice that God proclaimed His name to Moses (Exod. 34:5) and immediately indicated the character traits for which this name stands (v. 6).

    This loving character of God is communicated through no less than seven signs in John’s Gospel:

    • John 2:1-12 (Cana)
    • JN 4:46-54 (child healed)
    • JN 5:1-18 (lame man healed)
    • JN 6:1-15 (bread)
    • JN 6:16-21 (stormy seas calmed)
    • JN 9:1-41 (sight given)
    • JN 11:1-57 (Lazarus raised)

    In the character of God, are wisdom, purity, truth, goodness, and mercy combined, immutable and complete.”

    God’s character of love revealed in Christ is a constant theme:

    • “Tender, compassionate, sympathetic, ever considerate of others, He [Christ] represented the character of God, and was constantly engaged in service for God and man.”
    • Love, cannot live without action.” CM

    SOURCE:
    -- Clarke, A. 1854. The Holy Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments: with a Commentary and Critical Notes, vol. V, pp. 532, 533).
    -- Klatt, Cynthia. "Genesis Teaches Maya Believers about the Character of God." International Journal of Frontier Missions 12 (1995):173-75.

    Indeed ... I agree with the above information.

    And all of this has nothing whatever to do with Jesus actually is God ... it is the man Christ Jesus who displayed in his words and deeds the character of God, he said what God wanted said, he did what God wanted done. And that does NOT equal that Jesus was God himself (not a "person" of a Godhead)

    It does when John 1 says He is.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    And all of this has nothing whatever to do with Jesus actually is God ... it is the man Christ Jesus who displayed in his words and deeds the character of God, he said what God wanted said, he did what God wanted done. And that does NOT equal that Jesus was God himself (not a "person" of a Godhead)

    It does when John 1 says He is.

    The problem is that John 1 does NOT say Jesus is God

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,324

    Scripture says people cannot see God. “But He answered, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”” (Exodus 33:20) (HCSB)

    But, scripture also says; “The LORD spoke with Moses face to face, just as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his assistant, the young man Joshua son of Nun, would not leave the inside of the tent.” (Exodus 33:11) (HCSB)

    Then; Jesus says no man has seen the Father. “No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son — the One who is at the Father’s side — He has revealed Him.” (John 1:18) (HCSB)

    So Moses must have been speaking to the preincarnate Son who is at the Father’s side who reveals Him.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,261

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    And all of this has nothing whatever to do with Jesus actually is God ... it is the man Christ Jesus who displayed in his words and deeds the character of God, he said what God wanted said, he did what God wanted done. And that does NOT equal that Jesus was God himself (not a "person" of a Godhead)

    It does when John 1 says He is.

    The problem is that John 1 does NOT say Jesus is God

    Sure it does, so does Romans 9:5

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    And all of this has nothing whatever to do with Jesus actually is God ... it is the man Christ Jesus who displayed in his words and deeds the character of God, he said what God wanted said, he did what God wanted done. And that does NOT equal that Jesus was God himself (not a "person" of a Godhead)

    It does when John 1 says He is.

    The problem is that John 1 does NOT say Jesus is God

    Sure it does, so does Romans 9:5

    Not quite ... only in "Trinity coloured" translations. Do you realize that punctuation is the work of translators and the ancient early mss did not have such?

    Consider the following:

    Rom 9:5 (NASB95)
    5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen

    Carefully observing the contents of the verse and understanding it in the overall scope of Scripture, let's you easily recognize that the thoughts in the sentence go as follows:
    ..._ whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh.
    Who is over all, God, be blessed forever. Amen_

    This also is the translation found in the German Luther Bible, which translates the latter part with "God, Who is over all, be blessed forever, Amen"

    Rom 9:5 (Luther 2017)
    5 denen auch die Väter gehören und aus denen aChristus herkommt nach dem Fleisch. Gott, der da ist über allem,* sei gelobt in Ewigkeit. Amen

    By the way, the marginal note in NIV (2011) for Rom 9:5 gives the following alternative rendering:
    Or Messiah, who is over all. God be forever praised!
    Or Messiah. God who is over all be forever praised!

    Messiah Jesus is not over all (as he is at all times below his God and Father), nor is the Messiah himself the overall God.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,261

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    And all of this has nothing whatever to do with Jesus actually is God ... it is the man Christ Jesus who displayed in his words and deeds the character of God, he said what God wanted said, he did what God wanted done. And that does NOT equal that Jesus was God himself (not a "person" of a Godhead)

    It does when John 1 says He is.

    The problem is that John 1 does NOT say Jesus is God

    Sure it does, so does Romans 9:5

    Not quite ... only in "Trinity coloured" translations. Do you realize that punctuation is the work of translators and the ancient early mss did not have such?

    Consider the following:

    Rom 9:5 (NASB95)
    5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen

    Carefully observing the contents of the verse and understanding it in the overall scope of Scripture, let's you easily recognize that the thoughts in the sentence go as follows:
    ..._ whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh.
    Who is over all, God, be blessed forever. Amen_

    This also is the translation found in the German Luther Bible, which translates the latter part with "God, Who is over all, be blessed forever, Amen"

    Rom 9:5 (Luther 2017)
    5 denen auch die Väter gehören und aus denen aChristus herkommt nach dem Fleisch. Gott, der da ist über allem,* sei gelobt in Ewigkeit. Amen

    By the way, the marginal note in NIV (2011) for Rom 9:5 gives the following alternative rendering:
    Or Messiah, who is over all. God be forever praised!
    Or Messiah. God who is over all be forever praised!

    Messiah Jesus is not over all (as he is at all times below his God and Father), nor is the Messiah himself the overall God.

    Of course you are wrong on this issue as usual. No matter which way you read it Jesus is God and Jesus is over all things.

    John 13:3
    Ephesians 1:22
    John 3:35

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989

    @Wolfgang said:

    Messiah Jesus is not over all (as he is at all times below his God and Father), nor is the Messiah himself the overall God.

    Centuries before his birth Old Testament prophets made detailed predictions about the Messiah to come. It is said that there are more than 300 such predictions which were fulfilled in Jesus. Most of them Jesus could not have fulfilled himself even if he had wanted to. The predictions include his genealogy, place of birth, year of the beginning of his public ministry, triumphal entry in Jerusalem, speaking in parables, performing miracles, his rejection, betrayal, being abused and mocked, his crucifixion, year of death, his death in our place, burial, and resurrection. Consider the following:

    1. Micah 5:1 -- Prediction: 8th century B.C., Bethlehem as the place of birth.

      • Mt 2:1,5,6; Lk 2:1-7 – Fulfillment: God used the Roman emperor Augustus for the fulfillment of the prophecy because shortly before her delivery Mary and Joseph were still in Nazareth.
    2. Zech 9:9: –- Prediction: 6th century B.C., triumphal entry.

      • Mt 21:1-9; Mk 11:7 – Fulfillment: Jesus enters Jerusalem.
    3. Zech 11:12-13 -- Prediction: Thirty shekels of silver to be paid for the Lord.

      • Mt 26:15; 27:3-7 –- Fulfillment: Jesus is betrayed for exactly thirty shekels of silver, Judas threw the money into the temple.
    4. Ps 22:16-19 – Prediction: John 20:25; 19:23-24 -- 10th century B.C., crucifixion.

      • Fulfillment: Jesus was crucified, and his clothes were distributed.
    5. Ex 12:46 – Prediction: c. 16th century B.C., no bone of the Passover lamb was to be broken.

      • John 19:31-36 – Fulfillment: Jesus’ bones were not broken. The Passover lamb was a symbol for Jesus (John 1:29).

    The Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus and in him alone. He is what he had claimed, the Messiah, the Son of God, but especially our Savior (John 3:16). We are asked to recognize him as such and believe in him.

    Truth found truth shared. CM

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,391

    @reformed said:

    Of course you are wrong on this issue as usual. No matter which way you read it Jesus is God and Jesus is over all things.

    John 13:3

    The verse says - emphasizing the content I wish to call to our attention -  "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God,"

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jn 13:3). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.Jesus, knowing...that he had come from God and was going back to God,"

    The verse says Jesus knew that God had sent him and that he would return to God. The verse does NOT say Jesus knew he was God. In fact, the language of the verse makes it clear that Jesus is NOT God, unless you believe Jesus had come from himself and was going back to himself... neither of which the verse says happened.

    Ephesians 1:22

    Go back to Ephesian 1.16-17: "I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,"

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Eph 1:16–17). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

    The writer says clearly and plainly that Jesus had a God. One who is God cannot have a God! Further, the writer calls the God that Jesus had "Father," which I believe supports my view that in the NT, "Father" is a synonym for God, and NOT a component of a Godhead structure.

    The writer of Ephesians attributes ALL of the action that takes place in vv.18-22 to God, NOT to Jesus: "18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Eph 1:18–23). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

    Every instance of the pronoun "He" in that passage refers to God, not Jesus. God is the one who in v.18 calls us to hope, whose might in v.20 worked in Christ when he raised Christ from the dead, and who, in v.22, put all things under the feet of Christ. God did ALL of that. Jesus did NONE of that. In my view, Ephesians 3 is clear evidence in support of the view that Jesus is NOT God.

    John 3:35

    A repetition of what happens in Ephesians 3. Go back one verse, to John 3.34: "34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure."

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jn 3:34). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.: God gives Je

    God sent Jesus, and Jesus speaks for God. The verse does NOT say Jesus IS God. Instead, the verse distinguishes between the sender (God) and the one sent (Jesus). Where is the verse, reformed, that says the one sent IS the sender? Why are there so many NT verses that clearly separate the one who sends from the one who is sent? that give the clear impression that the one sent is different from, and not equal with, the one who does the sending?

    None of the verses you cite in any way proves that Jesus is God. In fact, I contend, they help prove the exact opposite proposition.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Messiah Jesus is not over all (as he is at all times below his God and Father), nor is the Messiah himself the overall God.

    ...
    ...
    The Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus and in him alone. He is what he had claimed, the Messiah, the Son of God, but especially our Savior (John 3:16). We are asked to recognize him as such and believe in him.

    Indeed ... and he claimed to be that Messiah prophesied in the OT Scriptures. He NEVER claimed -- nor did anyone in OT age or during the time of his ministry and in the time of the early church during the time of the NT scriptures teach and believe -- that he was God

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @Bill_Coley said:

    @reformed said:
    Of course you are wrong on this issue as usual. No matter which way you read it Jesus is God and Jesus is over all things.
    ...
    ...

    ...
    None of the verses you cite in any way proves that Jesus is God. In fact, I contend, they help prove the exact opposite proposition.

    Exactly ... the verses do not even have a wording which might remotely allow for an interpretation that Jesus is God.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,261

    @Bill_Coley @Wolfgang I didn't say those verses said Jesus was God. I was proving Wolfgang wrong because he said Jesus is not over all things. Yet those verses clearly state that He is.

    And on this God can't have a God argument. Again, this is nonsense. Who is Donald Trump's President? Donald Trump.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @reformed said:
    And on this God can't have a God argument. Again, this is nonsense. Who is Donald Trump's President? Donald Trump.

    Are there two Donald Trumps? one is the president of the other? Obviously not.

    Your comparison idea with president Trump is inapplicable => since Jesus' God is his Father, God and Jesus are obviously TWO different Beings ... one of them is a human being, the other is a SPIRIT Being.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,324

    Scripture says people cannot see God. “But He answered, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”” (Exodus 33:20) (HCSB)

    “The LORD spoke with Moses face to face, just as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his assistant, the young man Joshua son of Nun, would not leave the inside of the tent.” (Exodus 33:11) (HCSB)

    Jesus says no man has seen the Father. “No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son — the One who is at the Father’s side — He has revealed Him.” (John 1:18) (HCSB)

    So Moses must have been speaking to the preincarnate Son who is at the Father’s side who reveals Him.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,391
    edited February 1

    @reformed said:
    @Bill_Coley @Wolfgang I didn't say those verses said Jesus was God. I was proving Wolfgang wrong because he said Jesus is not over all things. Yet those verses clearly state that He is.

    I accept that you did not mean to say those verses declare that Jesus was God, but in your previous post, you introduced them with a sentence that made two declarations, one of which in fact was that Jesus is God: (emphasis added)

    Of course you are wrong on this issue as usual. No matter which way you read it Jesus is God and Jesus is over all things.

    John 13:3
    Ephesians 1:22
    John 3:35

    In my view, it's not odd that Wolfgang and I would conclude you offered those three verses as evidence to support both of the claims with which you introduced them.

    And then there's the substance of our responses. I accept your assertion that you didn't present them as evidence of Jesus' divinity, but what about the textual arguments we make that in fact those verses - for whatever purpose you offered them - actually make the case that Jesus is NOT God? Please engage the specific arguments we presented with evidence from the texts themselves.

    And on this God can't have a God argument. Again, this is nonsense. Who is Donald Trump's President? Donald Trump.

    We traveled the "the president is his/her own president" last summer. That discussion began with this post of yours, and ended without agreement. We presented our respective arguments well then; I doubt we would change or improve them much now.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,261

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:
    And on this God can't have a God argument. Again, this is nonsense. Who is Donald Trump's President? Donald Trump.

    Are there two Donald Trumps? one is the president of the other? Obviously not.

    Your comparison idea with president Trump is inapplicable => since Jesus' God is his Father, God and Jesus are obviously TWO different Beings ... one of them is a human being, the other is a SPIRIT Being.

    Of course it isn't an equal comparison, but it is showing an instance where a person can also be something to themselves.

    Jesus and the Father are two different persons but one God. Jesus was already spirit, like the Father, and took on flesh to dwell among us. He has always existed because he is God. John 1 makes that abundantly clear.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Your comparison idea with president Trump is inapplicable => since Jesus' God is his Father, God and Jesus are obviously TWO different Beings ... one of them is a human being, the other is a SPIRIT Being.

    Of course it isn't an equal comparison, but it is showing an instance where a person can also be something to themselves.

    And exactly that point about ONE person be something to THEMSELVES is NOT the case when we read about "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

    Jesus and the Father are two different persons but one God.

    So you say, but the text says differently ... "the God and Father" is one person, "the Lord Jesus Christ" is another person !!

    Jesus was already spirit, like the Father, and took on flesh to dwell among us. He has always existed because he is God. John 1 makes that abundantly clear.

    What you claim (about "Jesus was already spirit", etc) is absolutely not what John 1 makes clear.

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