Delivering the Holy Spirit in Acts

In Acts, God poured out the Holy Spirit on the apostles who then began speaking in tongues. Paul said people who spoke in tongues did not speak to men, but to God. So the devout Jews who heard them in their own native languages must have received the Holy Spirit and the gift of interpretation too.

Scripture says the word of God is the means of the new birth. And faith comes by hearing the word of God. And that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that comes through the hearing of faith. So when the devout Jews heard and received the Holy Spirit, they would also speak the Holy Spirit into the hearts of others in their homelands. Because the gift of the Holy Spirit comes through hearing God’s word.

The apostles not only spoke the gift of the Holy Spirit into the hearts of those who heard and understood them. They also set up select groups, like beachheads in a war effort, first at Samaria, and again in Ephesus, giving them the Holy Spirit through their hands. Enabling them to speak in tongues just as the apostles themselves. And by it relaying the Holy Spirit to those who heard them. And these in turn would relay the Holy Spirit to others, either by speaking in tongues or by speaking in their native tongue. Because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

When the New Testament scriptures became complete, tongues stopped but people still received the Holy Spirit through the spoken and written word, the scriptures, as we do today.

So in Acts, the Apostles received the Holy Spirit baptism and spoke in tongues. Those who heard and understood the message also received the Holy Spirit through their words. These would then relay the Holy Spirit to others through their spoken word. Just as we receive the Holy Spirit through the scriptures and repentance today.

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Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    From the many places in Acts and other NT scriptures, it should be clear that the holy spirit spoken of is NOT a living person, but rather it is WHAT (not "Who") was poured out, given as a gift, etc ...
    Thus, these passages rather plainly show the error in the Trinity doctrine/dogma which defines "the Holy Spirit" as a God-person within or as part of a "Trinity God"

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:
    From the many places in Acts and other NT scriptures, it should be clear that the holy spirit spoken of is NOT a living person, but rather it is WHAT (not "Who") was poured out, given as a gift, etc ...
    Thus, these passages rather plainly show the error in the Trinity doctrine/dogma which defines "the Holy Spirit" as a God-person within or as part of a "Trinity God"

    “As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.” (Acts 13:2–4) (KJV 1900)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:
    “As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.” (Acts 13:2–4) (KJV 1900)

    In this passage we see the descriptive designation "the Holy Spirit" used for the one single-person God ... but NOT a reference to a "3rd God-Person". As in other passages where God is called "the Almighty", or "the Holy One of Israel", or "the Father", or "the Creator", etc ... so we here have "the Holy Spirit". None of these speaks of distinct of each other "God-Persons" ... else we would not have a "TRI-nity", but more a "MULTI-nity".

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    “As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.” (Acts 13:2–4) (KJV 1900)

    In this passage we see the descriptive designation "the Holy Spirit" used for the one single-person God ... but NOT a reference to a "3rd God-Person". As in other passages where God is called "the Almighty", or "the Holy One of Israel", or "the Father", or "the Creator", etc ... so we here have "the Holy Spirit". None of these speaks of distinct of each other "God-Persons" ... else we would not have a "TRI-nity", but more a "MULTI-nity".

    You are overlooking Jesus' baptism where three distinct persons called God are present at once.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416
    edited January 8

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    In this passage we see the descriptive designation "the Holy Spirit" used for the one single-person God ... but NOT a reference to a "3rd God-Person". As in other passages where God is called "the Almighty", or "the Holy One of Israel", or "the Father", or "the Creator", etc ... so we here have "the Holy Spirit". None of these speaks of distinct of each other "God-Persons" ... else we would not have a "TRI-nity", but more a "MULTI-nity".

    You are overlooking Jesus' baptism where three distinct persons called God are present at once.

    I am not overlooking Jesus' baptism at all ... let's have a good look at it:

    John 1:33-34 (KJV)
    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
    34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    John mentions (a) "He that sent me ..." Who was that? The true God, a singular person Spirit Being, the Almighty, the Creator, etc. who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
    John continues with (b) "upon whom thou shalt see ..." Who is that? The man Jesus, who was born of a woman. John, in summary then, bares record that this man is "the Son of God"
    Also here, (c) "the Spirit descending" .... since "the Spirit" not only descended on that man but also "remained on him", it should be clear that "the Spirit" is NOT a person of some kind. One cannot be anointed with a person, but only with something (oil, etc).

    Peter at the house of Cornelius several years later mentioned this event and speaks of it as follows, using the expression "with holy spirit and with power":

    Acts 10:38 (KJV)
    38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    The expression "with the Holy Ghost [holy spirit] and with power" is not a reference to two separate things but by figure of speech Hendiadys ("two for one") where two things are mentioned but one thing is meant, here Peter thus emphatically states "was anointed with "holy spirit power".

    Thus, there are three in view at the so-called baptism of Jesus scene: (1) God, the Father of Jesus Christ; (2) the man Jesus who is being anointed by God at this occassion, (2) holy spirit power, that with which God anointed the man Jesus ... an which enabled Jesus from that time onward to work miracles and carry out his ministry.
    Please note what else Peter says: "for God was with him [Jesus]" => Peter clearly distinguishes between (a) God and (b) Jesus ... There is nowhere even one ioata of a mention of a Trinity Godhead (a Three God-Person Unit ...

    @Dave_L ... pray, tell, who is overlooking something in connection with Jesus' baptism?

    Post edited by Wolfgang on
  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    In this passage we see the descriptive designation "the Holy Spirit" used for the one single-person God ... but NOT a reference to a "3rd God-Person". As in other passages where God is called "the Almighty", or "the Holy One of Israel", or "the Father", or "the Creator", etc ... so we here have "the Holy Spirit". None of these speaks of distinct of each other "God-Persons" ... else we would not have a "TRI-nity", but more a "MULTI-nity".

    You are overlooking Jesus' baptism where three distinct persons called God are present at once.

    I am not overlooking Jesus' baptism at all ... let's have a good look at it:

    John 1:33-34 (KJV)
    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
    34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    John mentions (a) "He that sent me ..." Who was that? The true God, a singular person Spirit Being, the Almighty, the Creator, etc. who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
    John continues with (b) "upon whom thou shalt see ..." Who is that? The man Jesus, who was born of a woman. John, in summary then, bares record that this man is "the Son of God"
    Also here, (c) "the Spirit descending" .... since "the Spirit" not only descended on that man but also "remained on him", it should be clear that "the Spirit" is NOT a person of some kind. One cannot be anointed with a person, but only with something (oil, etc).

    Peter at the house of Cornelius several years later mentioned this event and speaks of it as follows, using the expression "with holy spirit and with power":

    Acts 10:38 (KJV)
    38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    The expression "with the Holy Ghost [holy spirit] and with power" is not a reference to two separate things but by figure of speech Hendiadys ("two for one") where two things are mentioned but one thing is meant, here Peter thus emphatically states "was anointed with "holy spirit power".

    Thus, there are three in view at the so-called baptism of Jesus scene: (1) God, the Father of Jesus Christ; (2) the man Jesus who is being anointed by God at this occassion, (2) holy spirit power, that with which God anointed the man Jesus ... an which enabled Jesus from that time onward to work miracles and carry out his ministry.
    Please note what else Peter says: "for God was with him [Jesus]" => Peter clearly distinguishes between (a) God and (b) Jesus ... There is nowhere even one ioata of a mention of a Trinity Godhead (a Three God-Person Unit ...

    @Dave_L ... pray, tell, who is overlooking something in connection with Jesus' baptism?

    If you consider the doctrine of the deity of Christ, it will make sense to you. In essence, we are body, soul and spirit. Jesus is body, soul, And YAHWEH. No human spirit but the triune God instead.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:

    @Dave_L ... pray, tell, who is overlooking something in connection with Jesus' baptism?

    If you consider the doctrine of the deity of Christ, it will make sense to you. In essence, we are body, soul and spirit. Jesus is body, soul, And YAHWEH. No human spirit but the triune God instead.

    Hmn ... we are human beings, and as such we are body, soul and spirit. Now, according to your above statement, Jesus was not body, soul and spirit ... that is, he was NOT really a human being ??
    Also, what about believers in Christ, who are body, soul and spirit and when they believe receive God's holy spirit as a gift and token/seal of their inheritance ?
    It seems to me, that your post reveals some confusion and misunderstanding of body, soul and spirit, of holy spirit, of YHWH, and maybe more ...

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Dave_L ... pray, tell, who is overlooking something in connection with Jesus' baptism?

    If you consider the doctrine of the deity of Christ, it will make sense to you. In essence, we are body, soul and spirit. Jesus is body, soul, And YAHWEH. No human spirit but the triune God instead.

    Hmn ... we are human beings, and as such we are body, soul and spirit. Now, according to your above statement, Jesus was not body, soul and spirit ... that is, he was NOT really a human being ??
    Also, what about believers in Christ, who are body, soul and spirit and when they believe receive God's holy spirit as a gift and token/seal of their inheritance ?
    It seems to me, that your post reveals some confusion and misunderstanding of body, soul and spirit, of holy spirit, of YHWH, and maybe more ...

    Jesus is YAHWEH as far as his Spirit with a human soul/mind and body. Accurately stated by the creeds as God with a fully human nature and a fully divine nature.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416
    edited January 8

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    It seems to me, that your post reveals some confusion and misunderstanding of body, soul and spirit, of holy spirit, of YHWH, and maybe more ...

    Jesus is YAHWEH as far as his Spirit with a human soul/mind and body.

    Hmn ... now you are re-defining YHWH to your liking? What are you trying to say with your "as far as" modifying comment? Jesus is - according to you -- partly YHWH/God?

    Accurately stated by the creeds as God with a fully human nature and a fully divine nature.

    Yes, you may be accurately stating what those creeds declare ... BUT they declare nonsense fiction with their "fully divine and fully human nature".
    See, the plain truth is very simple: God cannot be fully God and also fully or partly human: a human cannot be fully human and also fully or partly God. To claim otherwise either shows severe ignorance or evil intended deception and misleading.

    It seems that you have fallen victim to the proponents of the creeds and you are now elevating creeds above Scripture (and falsely claiming that the creeds are or state Scripture doesn't help a bit to overcome self-deception

    Post edited by Wolfgang on
  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    It seems to me, that your post reveals some confusion and misunderstanding of body, soul and spirit, of holy spirit, of YHWH, and maybe more ...

    Jesus is YAHWEH as far as his Spirit with a human soul/mind and body.

    Hmn ... now you are re-defining YHWH to your liking? What are you trying to say with your "as far as" modifying comment? Jesus is - according to you -- partly YHWH/God?

    Accurately stated by the creeds as God with a fully human nature and a fully divine nature.

    Yes, you may be accurately stating what those creeds declare ... BUT they declare nonsense fiction with their "fully divine and fully human nature".
    See, the plain truth is very simple: God cannot be fully God and also fully or partly human: a human cannot be fully human and also fully or partly God. To claim otherwise either shows severe ignorance or evil intended deception and misleading.

    It seems that you have fallen victim to the proponents of the creeds and you are now elevating creeds above Scripture (and falsely claiming that the creeds are or state Scripture doesn't help a bit to overcome self-deception

    The creeds state what scripture says after tedious and prolonged debate. They should not be taken for granted as those far more learned than any of us undertook the endeavor of preserving the truth for us.

  • @Wolfgang said:
    From the many places in Acts and other NT scriptures, it should be clear that the holy spirit spoken of is NOT a living person, but rather it is WHAT (not "Who") was poured out, given as a gift, etc ...
    Thus, these passages rather plainly show the error in the Trinity doctrine/dogma which defines "the Holy Spirit" as a God-person within or as part of a "Trinity God"

    How does a WHAT convict about sin ? testify about the Truth ? Announce future events ? Provide a way for Righteous living ? Raise Jesus from the dead ? Pray with words for God's Will that humans cannot understand ?

    John 15:26-16:15 includes Holy Spirit going out from the Father, testifying about Jesus. Holy Spirit convicts about sin. Also He guides people into the Truth.

    Romans 8:1-30 includes Holy Spirit being right with God, raising Jesus from the dead along with praying God's Will using words not humanly understood.

    Keep Smiling :smile:

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    From the many places in Acts and other NT scriptures, it should be clear that the holy spirit spoken of is NOT a living person, but rather it is WHAT (not "Who") was poured out, given as a gift, etc ...
    Thus, these passages rather plainly show the error in the Trinity doctrine/dogma which defines "the Holy Spirit" as a God-person within or as part of a "Trinity God"

    How does a WHAT convict about sin ? testify about the Truth ? Announce future events ? Provide a way for Righteous living ? Raise Jesus from the dead ? Pray with words for God's Will that humans cannot understand ?

    God (the Father, the Creator, the Almighty, the Holy Spirit) works by means of His holy spirit .... prophets announced future events according to the knowledge that had been revealed to them by God via that spirit which God had put upon/in them. There was NO "Holy Spirit God-person". God raised Jesus from the dead ... NOT a "Holy Spirit 3rd God-Person". We, having received holy spirit as God's gift, can pray in accordance with what God is accomplishing at work in us ...

    John 15:26-16:15 includes Holy Spirit going out from the Father, testifying about Jesus. Holy Spirit convicts about sin. Also He guides people into the Truth.

    Note carefully that in that passage from Joh 15-16 that spirit which God would give to those who believe in Christ the Messiah is described as a person by means of a figure of speech for the purpose of emphasis. God's gift is NOT a person, but power from high.

    Romans 8:1-30 includes Holy Spirit being right with God, raising Jesus from the dead along with praying God's Will using words not humanly understood.

    From where do you get the idea that Holy Spirit as a separate acting "God-Person" raised Jesus from the dead? We should not forget that there is only ONE Who Alone is true God ... there is not a Trio/Trinity who is God (cp. Jhn 17:3 .. where Jesus himself declares this truth).

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:
    The creeds state what scripture says after tedious and prolonged debate. They should not be taken for granted as those far more learned than any of us undertook the endeavor of preserving the truth for us.

    Ah ok ... therefore creeds are basically of equal authority as Scripture and will always be true. I see ... :wink:

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210
    edited January 9

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    The creeds state what scripture says after tedious and prolonged debate. They should not be taken for granted as those far more learned than any of us undertook the endeavor of preserving the truth for us.

    Ah ok ... therefore creeds are basically of equal authority as Scripture and will always be true. I see ... :wink:

    If you knew what the creeds (teachers in the Church) said, this would not be a mystery to you. If you reject them, you reject what scripture says after much careful study and debate.

    the doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic [universal] faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects monarchianism which believes in only one person (mono) and maintains that the Son and the Spirit subsists in the divine essence as impersonal attributes not distinct and divine Persons.

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects modalism which believes that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different names for the same God acting in different roles or manifestations (like the well-intentioned but misguided “water, vapor, ice” analogy).

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects Arianism which denies the full deity of Christ.

    And finally, orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.”

    Post edited by Dave_L on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:
    If you knew what the creeds (teachers in the Church) said, this would not be a mystery to you. If you reject them, you reject what scripture says after much careful study and debate.

    the doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God.

    As far as I can count, points (2)-(4) already make THREE who are each God, therefore you have THREE Gods (else they could not each be God !)
    Therefore, points (2)-(4) together contradict point (1) !!!

    (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit.

    Indeed ...

    (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    In a number of contexts the only One Who alone is true God is not only called "the Father", but is also called "the Holy Spirit", just as He is called "the Creator", or "the Almighty", or "the Ancient of Days", of "the Holy One of Israel"; etc ... All of these designations / references do NOT constitute separate distinct "God-Persons" or "Gods", but are descriptive terms used for the same one person God.

    The rest of your post only shows how "loony tunes" the various creeds are in regards to trying to define or defend their particular "Trinity" ideas ...

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    If you knew what the creeds (teachers in the Church) said, this would not be a mystery to you. If you reject them, you reject what scripture says after much careful study and debate.

    the doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God.

    As far as I can count, points (2)-(4) already make THREE who are each God, therefore you have THREE Gods (else they could not each be God !)
    Therefore, points (2)-(4) together contradict point (1) !!!

    (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit.

    Indeed ...

    (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    In a number of contexts the only One Who alone is true God is not only called "the Father", but is also called "the Holy Spirit", just as He is called "the Creator", or "the Almighty", or "the Ancient of Days", of "the Holy One of Israel"; etc ... All of these designations / references do NOT constitute separate distinct "God-Persons" or "Gods", but are descriptive terms used for the same one person God.

    The rest of your post only shows how "loony tunes" the various creeds are in regards to trying to define or defend their particular "Trinity" ideas ...

    You think of God materialistically. You need to think spiritually before you can have three persons in the same spiritual essence.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:
    You think of God materialistically. You need to think spiritually before you can have three persons in the same spiritual essence.

    oh oh ... throwing around some terms or blabbing after some "creed scholars"? Do YOU actually know what YOU are saying there?
    Please, tell me: What is "a spiritual essence" ... for example as compared to other kinds of "essence"? What is "to think spiritually" and how does one do that?

    Now,if you don't know and/or can't explain these, I suggest you refrain from using such terms. One should know what one is talking about.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    You think of God materialistically. You need to think spiritually before you can have three persons in the same spiritual essence.

    oh oh ... throwing around some terms or blabbing after some "creed scholars"? Do YOU actually know what YOU are saying there?
    Please, tell me: What is "a spiritual essence" ... for example as compared to other kinds of "essence"? What is "to think spiritually" and how does one do that?

    Now,if you don't know and/or can't explain these, I suggest you refrain from using such terms. One should know what one is talking about.

    If you read the creeds, you will understand how scripture presents God. Otherwise you have only cults and false teachers at your disposal.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    You think of God materialistically. You need to think spiritually before you can have three persons in the same spiritual essence.

    oh oh ... throwing around some terms or blabbing after some "creed scholars"? Do YOU actually know what YOU are saying there?
    Please, tell me: What is "a spiritual essence" ... for example as compared to other kinds of "essence"? What is "to think spiritually" and how does one do that?

    Now,if you don't know and/or can't explain these, I suggest you refrain from using such terms. One should know what one is talking about.

    If you read the creeds, you will understand how scripture presents God. Otherwise you have only cults and false teachers at your disposal.

    Please, @Dave_L , don't dodge the questions you were asked by "blowing unrelated hot air" ...

    I understand how Scripture presents God by reading and understanding Scripture ... instead of receiving a clouded and muddied creed issued false understanding. Actually, it appears rather clear that the creeds in regards to the Trinity ideas were pushed by false teachers with the assistance of political power.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    You think of God materialistically. You need to think spiritually before you can have three persons in the same spiritual essence.

    oh oh ... throwing around some terms or blabbing after some "creed scholars"? Do YOU actually know what YOU are saying there?
    Please, tell me: What is "a spiritual essence" ... for example as compared to other kinds of "essence"? What is "to think spiritually" and how does one do that?

    Now,if you don't know and/or can't explain these, I suggest you refrain from using such terms. One should know what one is talking about.

    If you read the creeds, you will understand how scripture presents God. Otherwise you have only cults and false teachers at your disposal.

    Please, @Dave_L , don't dodge the questions you were asked by "blowing unrelated hot air" ...

    I understand how Scripture presents God by reading and understanding Scripture ... instead of receiving a clouded and muddied creed issued false understanding. Actually, it appears rather clear that the creeds in regards to the Trinity ideas were pushed by false teachers with the assistance of political power.

    You do not understand scripture if you do not align with the creeds.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:
    You do not understand scripture if you do not align with the creeds.

    Well, for me Scripture is the higher authority and the measure by which creeds must be measured.
    For you, creeds are the higher authority, as they seem the measure and means by which to understand Scripture.

    One of us obviously has it wrong ... and backwards.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    You do not understand scripture if you do not align with the creeds.

    Well, for me Scripture is the higher authority and the measure by which creeds must be measured.
    For you, creeds are the higher authority, as they seem the measure and means by which to understand Scripture.

    One of us obviously has it wrong ... and backwards.

    But the creeds teach scripture after proving all the incorrect interpretations wrong.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:

    Well, for me Scripture is the higher authority and the measure by which creeds must be measured.
    For you, creeds are the higher authority, as they seem the measure and means by which to understand Scripture.

    One of us obviously has it wrong ... and backwards.

    But the creeds teach scripture after proving all the incorrect interpretations wrong.

    Well, the creeds teach THREE Gods and then say "but there is only one God", thus teaching a plainly false interpretation as doctrine ...
    Of course, when you hold to creed as measure for truth, then the truth of Scripture (there is only One Who Alone is true God, and that One is the Father of Christ Jesus, therefore Jesus can NOT himself be God ) appears to you as if it were incorrect.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    Well, for me Scripture is the higher authority and the measure by which creeds must be measured.
    For you, creeds are the higher authority, as they seem the measure and means by which to understand Scripture.

    One of us obviously has it wrong ... and backwards.

    But the creeds teach scripture after proving all the incorrect interpretations wrong.

    Well, the creeds teach THREE Gods and then say "but there is only one God", thus teaching a plainly false interpretation as doctrine ...
    Of course, when you hold to creed as measure for truth, then the truth of Scripture (there is only One Who Alone is true God, and that One is the Father of Christ Jesus, therefore Jesus can NOT himself be God ) appears to you as if it were incorrect.

    orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:
    orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.

    @Dave_L ... orthodox Trinitarianism actually teaches Tri-theism (!!!) when it teaches that the Father is God - (1), the Son is God - (2), the Holy Ghost is God - (3).
    To then claim: "they are only one God" is self-deception at its best.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.

    @Dave_L ... orthodox Trinitarianism actually teaches Tri-theism (!!!) when it teaches that the Father is God - (1), the Son is God - (2), the Holy Ghost is God - (3).
    To then claim: "they are only one God" is self-deception at its best.

    Only if you think of God materialistically.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416
    edited January 9

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    @Dave_L ... orthodox Trinitarianism actually teaches Tri-theism (!!!) when it teaches that the Father is God - (1), the Son is God - (2), the Holy Ghost is God - (3).
    To then claim: "they are only one God" is self-deception at its best.

    Only if you think of God materialistically.

    No, only if I don't elevate those false teachers above Scripture ...

    They are like salesmen who sell you a piece of land on the moon for you to build there your summer holiday home ... if you tell them they are nuts, they will tell you, that you would easily recognize the truth of their suggestion if you would stop thinking reasonably and logically and instead think "spacey"

    By the way, since you brought up "think materialistically" again, I would like to request that you please define what you actually mean with "think materialistically" and also "think spiritually".

    Post edited by Wolfgang on
  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210
    edited January 9

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    @Dave_L ... orthodox Trinitarianism actually teaches Tri-theism (!!!) when it teaches that the Father is God - (1), the Son is God - (2), the Holy Ghost is God - (3).
    To then claim: "they are only one God" is self-deception at its best.

    Only if you think of God materialistically.

    No, only if I don't elevate those false teachers above Scripture ...

    They are like salesmen who sell you a piece of land on the moon for you to build there your summer holiday home ... if you tell them they are nuts, they will tell you, that you would easily recognize the truth of their suggestion if you would stop thinking reasonably and logically and instead think "spacey"

    By the way, since you brought up "think materialistically" again, I would like to request that you please define what you actually mean with "think materialistically" and also "think spiritually".

    The creeds are the result of theological debates. They wrote down the conclusions which became pillar doctrines of Christendom. Since Christianity is the only religion in the world that is trinitarian in the worship of God, you and others who disagree are more in line with Islam and Judaism.

    Post edited by Dave_L on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,416

    @Dave_L said:
    The creeds are the result of theological debates.

    And the false teachers of pagan background won the debates ... resulting in Christendom at large forsaking the truth that there is only One Who Alone is true God.

    They wrote down the conclusions which became pillar doctrines of Christendom. Since Christianity is the only religion in the world that is trinitarian in the worship of God, you and others who disagree are more in line with Islam and Judaism.

    As strange as that may sound, it is the "creed defined" Christendom that worships a false God ... who actually is quite similar to Babylonian Gods.

    The true believers of Israel throughout the OT only worshiped only One Alone (and not Three) as the true God; Messiah Jesus believed in and worshiped only One Whom he regarded as the only One Who was the true God.

    As false as the religion of Islam is, it is closer to the truth of how many are God than the majority of so-called Christendom. However, their One is not the Biblical God, thus they are worshiping a false God also.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,210

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    The creeds are the result of theological debates.

    And the false teachers of pagan background won the debates ... resulting in Christendom at large forsaking the truth that there is only One Who Alone is true God.

    They wrote down the conclusions which became pillar doctrines of Christendom. Since Christianity is the only religion in the world that is trinitarian in the worship of God, you and others who disagree are more in line with Islam and Judaism.

    As strange as that may sound, it is the "creed defined" Christendom that worships a false God ... who actually is quite similar to Babylonian Gods.

    The true believers of Israel throughout the OT only worshiped only One Alone (and not Three) as the true God; Messiah Jesus believed in and worshiped only One Whom he regarded as the only One Who was the true God.

    As false as the religion of Islam is, it is closer to the truth of how many are God than the majority of so-called Christendom. However, their One is not the Biblical God, thus they are worshiping a false God also.

    The creed only summarizes what the bible says after thorough investigation. It's like the verdict in a trial. And Christianity is the only religion in the world that worships God in trinity. So those who reject the trinity reject Christianity and form cults claiming the name, but not the substance.

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