It Starts....The War On The Church

«1

Comments

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    I believe Jesus could return today, with nothing needing fulfillment before this happens. This means Satan has been loosed to rally the world against the church, as in the last half of Revelation 20. And is no longer bound from deceiving the nations.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    Reformed,
    1. You would not let a man dressed in drag to attend your worship service?
    2. Would you let an LGBTQ person become a member of your church?
    3. What if a "straight" member starts dressing in "drags"?
    4. What would you do with this member?

    Think about faith, the law, and public relations. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:


    Reformed,
    1. You would not let a man dressed in drag to attend your worship service?

    Absolutely not.

    1. Would you let an LGBTQ person become a member of your church?

    Absolutely not.

    1. What if a "straight" member starts dressing in "drags"?

    Church discipline would be started.

    1. What would you do with this member?

    Tell them to repent or they will no longer be welcome.

    Think about faith, the law, and public relations. CM

    Only the Bible matters in this situation.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:


    Reformed,
    1. You would not let a man dressed in drag to attend your worship service?

    Absolutely not.

    1. Would you let an LGBTQ person become a member of your church?

    Absolutely not.

    1. What if a "straight" member starts dressing in "drags"?

    Church discipline would be started.

    1. What would you do with this member?

    Tell them to repent or they will no longer be welcome.

    Think about faith, the law, and public relations. CM

    Only the Bible matters in this situation.

    WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE TO GO, OTHER THAN YOU ASSIGNING THEM TO "HELL"? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:


    Reformed,
    1. You would not let a man dressed in drag to attend your worship service?

    Absolutely not.

    1. Would you let an LGBTQ person become a member of your church?

    Absolutely not.

    1. What if a "straight" member starts dressing in "drags"?

    Church discipline would be started.

    1. What would you do with this member?

    Tell them to repent or they will no longer be welcome.

    Think about faith, the law, and public relations. CM

    Only the Bible matters in this situation.

    WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE TO GO, OTHER THAN YOU ASSIGNING THEM TO "HELL"? CM

    You realize the local church service is not for the purpose of evangelism right? It is for the Saints, believers, to grow. It is for the pastor to shepherd his flock. It is not to seek out the lost, that's what the believer's do outside the church service. So, in short, we are to go to them. But I would not let someone openly practice sin in my church. The fact that you think that should be allowed is telling.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE TO GO, OTHER THAN YOU ASSIGNING THEM TO "HELL"? CM

    You realize the local church service is not for the purpose of evangelism right? It is for the Saints, believers, to grow. It is for the pastor to shepherd his flock. It is not to seek out the lost, that's what the believer's do outside the church service. So, in short, we are to go to them. But I would not let someone openly practice sin in my church. The fact that you think that should be allowed is telling.

    Reformed,
    Hold your horses! I asked a series of questions on the one hand, and on the other, I am thinking of a different approach. I notice you're very quick to label and to pigeonhole people. Lighten-up!

    To be clear, a non-christian can't attend your local church services? Is it strictly for members only? When a non-member shows up do you turn them away at the door?

    Jesus said we (disciples) are to be "fishers of men". Did He intend for us to catch and clean the fish (souls) before we bring them into the church? :p CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE TO GO, OTHER THAN YOU ASSIGNING THEM TO "HELL"? CM

    You realize the local church service is not for the purpose of evangelism right? It is for the Saints, believers, to grow. It is for the pastor to shepherd his flock. It is not to seek out the lost, that's what the believer's do outside the church service. So, in short, we are to go to them. But I would not let someone openly practice sin in my church. The fact that you think that should be allowed is telling.

    Reformed,
    Hold your horses! I asked a series of questions on the one hand, and on the other, I am thinking of a different approach. I notice you're very quick to label and to pigeonhole people. Lighten-up!

    To be clear, a non-christian can't attend your local church services? Is it strictly for members only? When a non-member shows up do you turn them away at the door?

    I did not say that at all. Of course, we let anyone in. But if they are actively sinning and living in active sin and not repentant, Scripture is clear we are not to let them remain.

    Jesus said we (disciples) are to be "fishers of men". Did He intend for us to catch and clean the fish (souls) before we bring them into the church? :p CM

    Actually, yes. The church is not for unbelievers so it should not be geared toward them.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Reformed,
    Hold your horses! I asked a series of questions on the one hand, and on the other, I am thinking of a different approach. I notice you're very quick to label and to pigeonhole people. Lighten-up!

    Am I right about this?

    To be clear, a non-christian can't attend your local church services? Is it strictly for members only? When a non-member shows up do you turn them away at the door?

    I did not say that at all. Of course, we let anyone in.

    Blacks and Hispanics too? What kind of church is this?

    But if they are actively sinning and living in active sin and not repentant, Scripture is clear we are not to let them remain.

    You're aware of the different types of sins? How do you determine this? You or another officer make this call? Is it a sin for a man to cross dress? What about the unseen sins of a person? Do you bother to detect the hidden, covert, sins?

    Do you need to rethink your attitude and position on this matter of at the door evaluation?

    Jesus said we (disciples) are to be "fishers of men". Did He intend for us to catch and clean the fish (souls) before we bring them into the church? :p CM

    Actually, yes. The church is not for unbelievers so it should not be geared toward them.

    Where do the almost members go until he's fully cleaned? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Reformed,
    Hold your horses! I asked a series of questions on the one hand, and on the other, I am thinking of a different approach. I notice you're very quick to label and to pigeonhole people. Lighten-up!

    Am I right about this?

    Right about what exactly?

    To be clear, a non-christian can't attend your local church services? Is it strictly for members only? When a non-member shows up do you turn them away at the door?

    I did not say that at all. Of course, we let anyone in.

    Blacks and Hispanics too? What kind of church is this?

    Why would we not let Blacks or Hispanics in? That makes no sense to even ask.

    But if they are actively sinning and living in active sin and not repentant, Scripture is clear we are not to let them remain.

    You're aware of the different types of sins? How do you determine this? You or another officer make this call? Is it a sin for a man to cross dress? What about the unseen sins of a person? Do you bother to detect the hidden, covert, sins?

    If you know a person is actively living in sin then you must do something about it. Obviously there may be secret sins, but you can't discipline something you don't know about. Yes, cross-dressing is sinful.

    Do you need to rethink your attitude and position on this matter of at the door evaluation?

    What are you talking about?

    Jesus said we (disciples) are to be "fishers of men". Did He intend for us to catch and clean the fish (souls) before we bring them into the church? :p CM

    Actually, yes. The church is not for unbelievers so it should not be geared toward them.


    Where do the almost members go until he's fully cleaned? CM

    Once saved you are declared righteous. The church is not geared toward the unbeliever. It is for the believer and that should be the focus. Discipling the flock.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Reformed,
    Hold your horses! I asked a series of questions on the one hand, and on the other, I am thinking of a different approach. I notice you're very quick to label and to pigeonhole people. Lighten-up!

    Am I right about this?

    Right about what exactly?

    To be clear, a non-christian can't attend your local church services? Is it strictly for members only? When a non-member shows up do you turn them away at the door?

    I did not say that at all. Of course, we let anyone in.

    Blacks and Hispanics too? What kind of church is this?

    Why would we not let Blacks or Hispanics in? That makes no sense to even ask.

    But if they are actively sinning and living in active sin and not repentant, Scripture is clear we are not to let them remain.

    You're aware of the different types of sins? How do you determine this? You or another officer make this call? Is it a sin for a man to cross dress? What about the unseen sins of a person? Do you bother to detect the hidden, covert, sins?

    If you know a person is actively living in sin then you must do something about it.

    How would you know this seeing them for the first time?

    Obviously there may be secret sins...

    Indeed!

    but you can't discipline something you don't know about.

    Indeed, once again. Besides, discipline is for members only.

    Yes, cross-dressing is sinful.

    How do you distinguish what is "cross-dressing" and cultural differences? e.g. Scottish men in Kilts, Kenya Masai Dress or the men of Sadi Arabia? Are your deacons and ushers trained to discern these things? A slippery slope # 1

    Do you need to rethink your attitude and position on this matter of at the door evaluation?

    What are you talking about?

    Judging people's appearance at the door for sin. A slippery slope # 2

    Where do the almost members go until he's fully cleaned? CM

    Once saved you are declared righteous. The church is not geared toward the unbeliever. It is for the believer and that should be the focus. Discipling the flock.

    Quite interesting. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Reformed,
    Hold your horses! I asked a series of questions on the one hand, and on the other, I am thinking of a different approach. I notice you're very quick to label and to pigeonhole people. Lighten-up!

    Am I right about this?

    Right about what exactly?

    To be clear, a non-christian can't attend your local church services? Is it strictly for members only? When a non-member shows up do you turn them away at the door?

    I did not say that at all. Of course, we let anyone in.

    Blacks and Hispanics too? What kind of church is this?

    Why would we not let Blacks or Hispanics in? That makes no sense to even ask.

    But if they are actively sinning and living in active sin and not repentant, Scripture is clear we are not to let them remain.

    You're aware of the different types of sins? How do you determine this? You or another officer make this call? Is it a sin for a man to cross dress? What about the unseen sins of a person? Do you bother to detect the hidden, covert, sins?

    If you know a person is actively living in sin then you must do something about it.

    How would you know this seeing them for the first time?

    I didn't know I said you would.

    Obviously there may be secret sins...


    Indeed!

    but you can't discipline something you don't know about.

    Indeed, once again. Besides, discipline is for members only.

    That's where I think you are wrong. There was no such thing as "Members" when Church Discipline was written in Scripture.

    Yes, cross-dressing is sinful.

    How do you distinguish what is "cross-dressing" and cultural differences? e.g. Scottish men in Kilts, Kenya Masai Dress or the men of Sadi Arabia? Are your deacons and ushers trained to discern these things? A slippery slope # 1

    That is about the most ridiculous argument I have heard from you in a while. You know good and well what cross-dressing is and what it is not.

    Do you need to rethink your attitude and position on this matter of at the door evaluation?

    What are you talking about?

    Judging people's appearance at the door for sin. A slippery slope # 2

    If you are a man and you are portraying yourself as a woman you will not be allowed in my services. That's not a slippery slope. That's a no-brainer.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:
    That is about the most ridiculous argument I have heard from you in a while. You know good and well what cross-dressing is and what it is not.

    No, it's not "ridiculous argument". "cross-dressing" by what culture and whose standards?
    This could be a new thread alone.

    If you are a man and you are portraying yourself as a woman you will not be allowed in my services. That's not a slippery slope. That's a no-brainer.

    It sounds like you are saying, the dress makes the person. Reformed, are you aware that there are men and women who have dominate figures or traits of the opposite sex? After all, we're living in times after the "fall".

    1. What about a woman dressing like a man?
    2. Better yet, what about a woman (member) wearing a man's pants?
    3. What about a woman (member) wearing pants anywhere?
    4. Do you allow a woman (member or non-member) to wear pants in your church?

    These are cultural things. You may want to start a new thread to drill down on the "Cross-dressing" and Cross-cultural dressings. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:
    That is about the most ridiculous argument I have heard from you in a while. You know good and well what cross-dressing is and what it is not.

    No, it's not "ridiculous argument". "cross-dressing" by what culture and whose standards?
    This could be a new thread alone.

    If you are a man and you are portraying yourself as a woman you will not be allowed in my services. That's not a slippery slope. That's a no-brainer.

    It sounds like you are saying, the dress makes the person. Reformed, are you aware that there are men and women who have dominate figures or traits of the opposite sex? After all, we're living in times after the "fall".

    Having traits of the opposite sex and portraying yourself as the opposite sex is not the same thing.

    1. What about a woman dressing like a man?

    Same scenario.

    1. Better yet, what about a woman (member) wearing a man's pants?

    There is a difference between wearing a man's pair of pants and cross-dressing to portray yourself as the opposite sex. Don't try and twist this. You know exactly what we are talking about. We are talking about the condemned LGBT community living in open sin.

    1. What about a woman (member) wearing pants anywhere?

    ???

    1. Do you allow a woman (member or non-member) to wear pants in your church?

    Yes, that's not the same as cross-dressing.

    These are cultural things. You may want to start a new thread to drill down on the "Cross-dressing" and Cross-cultural dressings. CM

    You know exactly what we are talking about and you are trying to distract from the real issue here.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    3. What about a woman (member) wearing pants anywhere?

    ???

    1. Do you allow a woman (member or non-member) to wear pants in your church?

    Yes, that's not the same as cross-dressing.

    I know this too may need a new thread, but what does this passage mean?

    • “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.” Deut. 22:5 (KJV)

    I remain. CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    You know exactly what we are talking about and you are trying to distract from the real issue here.

    Reformed,
    If not here, what are you, personally, or your church is doing to research the LGBTQ Community since they are not welcome in your weekly worship services? One of the many things:

    1. Do you have a special meeting or service in your church for the LGBTQ Community?
    2. Do you have a special meeting or service in their neighborhood of LGBTQ Community?
    3. Do you preach to them or engage in social meetings?
    4. What hope or "good news" you will share with LGBTQ Community in your church or their neighborhood?
    5. Are you interested in reaching the LGBTQ Community?
    6. Is the LGBTQ Community too far gone to even attempt to reach them for Jesus?
    7. In teaching, those in the LGBTQ Community, whether at a special service in your church or in their neighborhood, would you require them to uncross dress to teach them?
    8. If not why not? If so, what translation of the Bible would you use?

    If you can't answer here, I would love you to answer them somewhere. Can you? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    You know exactly what we are talking about and you are trying to distract from the real issue here.

    Reformed,
    If not here, what are you, personally, or your church is doing to research the LGBTQ Community since they are not welcome in your weekly worship services? One of the many things:

    1. Do you have a special meeting or service in your church for the LGBTQ Community?

    No. They are not part of the universal church.

    1. Do you have a special meeting or service in their neighborhood of LGBTQ Community?

    Why would there be?

    1. Do you preach to them or engage in social meetings?

    Yes

    1. What hope or "good news" you will share with LGBTQ Community in your church or their neighborhood?

    Turn from your sin and put faith in Christ.

    1. Are you interested in reaching the LGBTQ Community?

    Yes

    1. Is the LGBTQ Community too far gone to even attempt to reach them for Jesus?

    Never once have I even hinted at that.

    1. In teaching, those in the LGBTQ Community, whether at a special service in your church or in their neighborhood, would you require them to uncross dress to teach them?

    Evangelism is different than a church service so no.

    1. If not why not? If so, what translation of the Bible would you use?

    See above. I use the ESV.

    If you can't answer here, I would love you to answer them somewhere. Can you? CM

    Yep answered them all.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    Reformed,
    The Bible clearly teaches that followers of Christ should be involved in their communities. Some examples of biblical support for an outwardly focused life are found in

    • Isa 58:10-11
    • The Gospel Commission (Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:47-48; Acts 1:8; John 17:18; 20:21)
    • Eph 2:10

    The ancient Jews learned that not following God‘s counsel, led to captivity and suffering. To keep from sinning, they isolated themselves from the heathen nations, developing practices that ensured them of staying pure. Though designated as God‘s messengers, they were not willing to compassionately connect with their non-Jewish neighbors. Could today's Christian Churches be on the verge of making the same mistake when it comes to members of the LGBTQ Community? CM

    Sources:

    -- Coleman, R. E. (2005). The Jesus way to win the church. Evangelical Review of Theology, 29(1), 77-81.
    -- Gunderson, G. Emergent wholeness: Congregations in community. Word & World, 20(4), 360-367.
    -- Rusaw, R., & Swanson, E. (2004). The externally focused church. Loveland, CO: Group Publishing.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:
    Reformed,
    The Bible clearly teaches that followers of Christ should be involved in their communities. Some examples of biblical support for an outwardly focused life are found in

    • Isa 58:10-11
    • The Gospel Commission (Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:47-48; Acts 1:8; John 17:18; 20:21)
    • Eph 2:10

    I have repeatedly said Christians should be as well. That has nothing to do with a church service though. Try again.

    The ancient Jews learned that not following God‘s counsel, led to captivity and suffering. To keep from sinning, they isolated themselves from the heathen nations, developing practices that ensured them of staying pure. Though designated as God‘s messengers, they were not willing to compassionately connect with their non-Jewish neighbors. Could today's Christian Churches be on the verge of making the same mistake when it comes to members of the LGBTQ Community? CM

    No. Nobody is saying to not reach out to the LGBTQTQUEERLETSADDASMANYLETTERSASPOSSIBLE "community"

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    If one of its members shows up today at the door, would you turn them away? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:
    If one of its members shows up today at the door, would you turn them away? CM

    It depends. If they are cross-dressing, yes. If they are with their partner and making it known/obvious that they are a couple, yes.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    If one of its members shows up today at the door, would you turn them away? CM

    It depends. If they are cross-dressing, yes. If they are with their partner and making it known/obvious that they are a couple, yes.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. You're hamstringing God. This is wrong! Is not the church is a "house of prayer" for all? Aren't members of the LGBTQ Community are entitled to salvation and fellowship? This is stock religious segregation! How could you and your church in the name of Jesus do this? You seem to make the building more important than people.

    You need to re-think this salvation at the door religion when it comes to members of the LGBTQ Community. Did Jesus die for all? WWJD? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    If one of its members shows up today at the door, would you turn them away? CM

    It depends. If they are cross-dressing, yes. If they are with their partner and making it known/obvious that they are a couple, yes.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. You're hamstringing God. This is wrong! Is not the church is a "house of prayer" for all? Aren't members of the LGBTQ Community are entitled to salvation and fellowship? This is stock religious segregation! How could you and your church in the name of Jesus do this? You seem to make the building more important than people.

    You need to re-think this salvation at the door religion when it comes to members of the LGBTQ Community. Did Jesus die for all? WWJD? CM

    No, the church is not a house of prayer for all. It is a place of worship for believers. Not including the unsaved in the body of the church has nothing to do with salvation. By very definition, the church is segregated from the world. That's kind of the point. Make a building more important than people? No I don't. You really need to study the purpose of the church.

    I don't need to rethink this at all. This has nothing to do with salvation as you are trying to make it out to be. The church service is not for evangelism, it is for discipleship and fellowship of those who are already saved.

    You are putting words in my mouth by the way. I have never said any of the following:

    1. We should not witness to LGBT
    2. LGBT can't come to know Christ and turn away from their sin.
    3. We should shun LGBT
    4. Jesus didn't die for all who accept him.

    I have never said any of those things and there is no possible way you can twist what I have said into making it so.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:
    No, the church is not a house of prayer for all. It is a place of worship for believers. Not including the unsaved in the body of the church has nothing to do with salvation. By very definition, the church is segregated from the world. That's kind of the point. Make a building more important than people? No I don't. You really need to study the purpose of the church.

    Thanks, I will look anew at the church.

    I don't need to rethink this at all. This has nothing to do with salvation as you are trying to make it out to be. The church service is not for evangelism, it is for discipleship and fellowship of those who are already saved.

    You need re-think it. This sounds too governmental departmentalization.

    You are putting words in my mouth by the way. I have never said any of the following:

    1. We should not witness to LGBT
    2. LGBT can't come to know Christ and turn away from their sin.
    3. We should shun LGBT
    4. Jesus didn't die for all who accept him.

    I have never said any of those things and there is no possible way you can twist what I have said into making it so.

    Maybe NOT directly? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:
    No, the church is not a house of prayer for all. It is a place of worship for believers. Not including the unsaved in the body of the church has nothing to do with salvation. By very definition, the church is segregated from the world. That's kind of the point. Make a building more important than people? No I don't. You really need to study the purpose of the church.

    Thanks, I will look anew at the church.

    I don't need to rethink this at all. This has nothing to do with salvation as you are trying to make it out to be. The church service is not for evangelism, it is for discipleship and fellowship of those who are already saved.

    You need re-think it. This sounds too governmental departmentalization.

    No, it sounds biblical.

    You are putting words in my mouth by the way. I have never said any of the following:

    1. We should not witness to LGBT
    2. LGBT can't come to know Christ and turn away from their sin.
    3. We should shun LGBT
    4. Jesus didn't die for all who accept him.

    I have never said any of those things and there is no possible way you can twist what I have said into making it so.

    Maybe NOT directly? CM

    No, not at all.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    Reformed,
    I can't understand you are so willing to bring a murderous weapon of death in the worship center and yet, you will bar members of the LGBTQ Community from services. This is not healthy. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:
    Reformed,
    I can't understand you are so willing to bring a murderous weapon of death in the worship center and yet, you will bar members of the LGBTQ Community from services. This is not healthy. CM

    Have you ever heard of church discipline?

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    People over guns. Members of the LGBTQ Community are people. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:
    People over guns. Members of the LGBTQ Community are people. CM

    Stay on topic

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    Simply making a comparison-- things (guns) over people. Guns are a greater danger to your congregation than members of the LGBTQ Community are people. Guns seem to have rights in your worship and certain people have none. Sad. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:
    Simply making a comparison-- things (guns) over people. Guns are a greater danger to your congregation than members of the LGBTQ Community are people. Guns seem to have rights in your worship and certain people have none. Sad. CM

    Actually I would say LGBT is the greater danger.

Sign In or Register to comment.