Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #7
Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)
Notice the meaning of the following names that all give witness to Jehovah as the one only true God? (John 17:3)
- Jesus renders Jehovah is Salvation
- Yeshua renders Yahweh is Salvation
- Joel renders Jehovah is God
- Elijah renders My God is Jehovah
SEE if you can find the Hebrew Tetragrammaton in these names: יהוה
Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)
Comments
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Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)
I have little doubt that you firmly believe what you have written; however, I believe the following citations given below demonstrate that your perspective on this is one that is highly misinformed and distorted leading to the above assertion of error.
To begin with a citation from roughly the first decade of the second century AD:
- "For our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father, is all the more revealed [in His glory]." (Ignatius of Antioch. (1885). The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, pp. 74–75). Christian Literature Company.)
The second line in the Nicene Creed:
- "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."
The opening line in the Creed of Chalcedon:
- "We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man,"
Within the Athanasian Creed:
- "For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man."
In the Belgic Confession:
- "We believe that Jesus Christ according to His divine nature is the only begotten Son of God, begotten from eternity, not made, nor created"
The above Creed and Confession quotes are found in this resource: (Historic Creeds and Confessions (electronic ed.). (1997). Lexham Press.)
Two examples from modern day published resources regarding Trinity doctrine:
- "(1) the related issues of the deity of Christ (and the Holy Spirit) and the implications of that teaching for the doctrine of the triune nature of God and (2) the manner in which the divine and human natures are to be related to each other and to the one person of Christ." (Reymond, R. L. (2003). Jesus, Divine Messiah: The New and Old Testament Witness (pp. 9–10). Christian Focus Publications.)
- "Justin is emphatic on the distinction between being begotten and being created. Christ is not “a kind of second God created by God the Father.”" (Hill, C. E. (2014). Paradox Pushers and Persecutors? In M. F. Bird (Ed.), How God Became Jesus: The Real Origins of Belief in Jesus’ Divine Nature—A Response to Bart Ehrman (p. 186). Zondervan.)
Citing the use of Lord and Christ in reference to Jesus within published works relating to the Trinity could go on for an almost never-ending length of time; so, I'll consider the above citations more than sufficient in providing correction to the error that has been asserted in the opening post.
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@Pages - Citing the use of Lord and Christ in reference to Jesus within published works relating to the Trinity could go on for an almost never-ending length of time; so, I'll consider the above citations more than sufficient in providing correction to the error that has been asserted in the opening post.
I remain by my statement. @Brother Rando - Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God MADE him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)
- Since God made Jesus both Lord and Christ then at one time he did not exist.
- And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been Given to me." (Matthew 28:18)
Jesus could not be GIVEN something if he already had it, so at one time Jesus did not have "All authority in heaven and on earth"
- For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Tim 2:5)
- God is not a man (Numbers 23:19)
Thank you for your response but I don't buy into Catholic Creeds that came about in the 4th Century. Now if you come across the 'trinity doctrine' you claim to believe in... just Post it. Trinitarians always hide the trinity doctrine they claim to believe in. Is it because you finally looked it up and couldn't find Jesus Christ in it?
Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?
The Trinity doctrine is defined this way, although there are many variations: “Three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God.” Is this a Bible teaching?
- the Father is greater than I am (John 14:28)
- In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God (τὸν Θεόν) you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Luke 4:8)
Trinitarian translators removed the Hebrew Tetragrammaton יהוה and inserted Lord to Hide God's Name. What does יהוה mean in English?
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"Thank you for your response but I don't buy into Catholic Creeds that came about in the 4th Century. Now if you come across the 'trinity doctrine' you claim to believe in... just Post it. Trinitarians always hide the trinity doctrine they claim to believe in. Is it because you finally looked it up and couldn't find Jesus Christ in it?"
You're welcome. It's not about buying into Creeds, it is about the fact that they express the doctrine you deny; and, their use of "Lord" and "Christ" related to Jesus contrary to your statement. Thereby rendering your initial post's assertion as error.
Will you specifically point out what you find as not expounding trinity doctrine in those Creeds and Confessions? And, will you then point out how they differ in what they say compared to this limited WT jw.org explanation you provided in your second post?
"Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?"
"The Trinity doctrine is defined this way, although there are many variations: “Three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God.” Is this a Bible teaching?"
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It's not about buying into Creeds, it is about the fact that they express the doctrine you deny; and, their use of "Lord" and "Christ" related to Jesus contrary to your statement.
You are in absolute error and trying to deceive. This scripture is not found in ANY TRINITY DOCTRINE, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36) as I already stated very clearly.
I remain by my statement. @Brother Rando - Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God MADE him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)
The teaching that God is made up of three people, three voices, or three colors is simply not in the scriptures. The apostate doctrine claims that the HOLY GHOST is God - there is NO Mention of JESUS CHRIST at all about being Lord and Christ in the trinity doctrine. The demonic teaching that God is a GHOST and has NO Name is simply Catholic Dogma.
- So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call ME good? No one is good except God alone." (Mark 10:18)
Who is Jesus Christ?
Unlike any other human, Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he was born on earth. (John 8:23) He was God’s first creation, and he helped in the creation of all other things. He is the only one created directly by Jehovah and is thus called God’s “only-begotten” Son. Jesus served as God’s Spokesman, so he is also called “the Word.”—John 1:1-3, 14; read Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Colossians 1:15, 16.
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My understanding of trinity = tri-unity = three plural voices unified in one Holy unique אלהים God, who alone is to be worshipped. Eternal Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God can have the mouth of an Archangel (messenger servant) give sound to words from Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
Remember Jesus shares " יהוה Righteousness of we "/" יהוה Righteousness of us " name as it is written in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>
“Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’
To me, the English pronoun 'our' ('of us') in phrase ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’ expresses our human view of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's point of view for the last two Hebrew words יהוה צדקנו is " יהוה Righteousness of we " (consistent with One Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God being uniquely unlike any created being by having more than one voice, a plural unique God as described in Deuteronomy 6:4
שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד
sh'-MA yis-ra-AYL a-do-NAI e-lo-HAY-nu a-do-NAI e-KHAD
Israel365 Bible transliteration shows Jews say "a-do-NAI" (Lord) for יהוה (disguise or epithat for use outside the Jewish Temple that attempts to avoid abusing Holy יהוה name as cursing יהוה is punished by death).
שמע = sh'-MA : Verb, Qal, Imperative, 2nd Person, Masculine, Singular : Hear & Obey
ישראל = yis-ra-AYL : Noun, Proper, Singular, Absolute : Israel (Singular Noun for a particular group of people)
יהוה = "a-do-NAI" (Lord) : Noun, Proper, Masculine, Singular, Absolute : the one who was & the one who is & the one who is to come
אלהינו = e-lo-HAY-nu : Noun, Common, Masculine, Plural, Construct (of) & Pronoun, Suffixed, 1st Person, Plural : God
יהוה = "a-do-NAI" (Lord) : Noun, Proper, Masculine, Singular, Absolute : the one who was & the one who is & the one who is to come
אחד = e-KHAD : numeral, cardinal, singular, absolute : one/only
Hebrew nouns have three spelling variations: singular, dual (eyes, ears, ...), & plural. What is plural in the One unique אלהים God ?
@Brother Rando December 23 Jesus said to him, “Why do you call ME good? No one is good except God alone." (Mark 10:18
Notice the rich man did NOT answer the question from Jesus. If the rich man had answered: "I believe Your (Jesus) spirit is fully אלהים God in human flesh", then the rich man would have answered his own question: "Good Teacher, what must I do so that I will inherit eternal life?”
To me, יהוה Salvation was grieved by the deceitful motivation within a rich person (who refused to sell personal possessions & follow יהוה Salvation to ❤️ lovingly experience Holy אלהים God) as described in Mark 10:17-31 LEB (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>
And as he was setting out on his way, one individual ran up and knelt down before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do so that I will inherit eternal life?”
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except אלהים God alone.
You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’ ”
And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth.”
And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: Go, sell all that you have, and give the proceeds to the poor — and you will have treasure in heaven — and come, follow me.”
But he looked gloomy at the statement and went away sorrowful, because he had many possessions.
And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it is for those who possess wealth to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God!”
And the disciples were astounded at his words.
But Jesus answered and said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God.”
And they were very astounded, saying to one another, “And who can be saved?”
Jesus looked at them and said, “With human beings it is impossible, but not with אלהים God. For all things are possible with אלהים God.”
Peter began to say to him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed you.”
Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields on account of me and on account of the gospel who will not receive a hundred times as much now in this time — houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, together with persecutions — and in the age to come, eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
What Watchtower Society knowledge/obedience is thought to be more valuable for a JW.org adherent than personally experiencing the ❤️ Love of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ?
@Brother Rando December 23 Unlike any other human, Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he was born on earth. (John 8:23) He was God’s first creation, and he helped in the creation of all other things. He is the only one created directly by Jehovah and is thus called God’s “only-begotten” Son. Jesus served as God’s Spokesman, so he is also called “the Word.”—John 1:1-3, 14; read Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30; Colossians 1:15, 16.
Thanks for expressing your faith belief, which is consistent with the Watchtower Society that adds "other" to describe creation: "He was God’s first creation, and he helped in the creation of all other things." that rejects Jesus Christ from being eternal.
Eternal truth is consistent. Remember many Unfulfilled Watch Tower Society predictions provide me reason NOT to trust the inconsistent human organization (along with a number of doctrinal changes over the years). True Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God prophets (communication channels) pass test of 100% accuracy.
Colossians 1:15, 16 verses are in the middle on one long sentence that is numbered Colossians 1:9-20. Notice four sentences in Colossians 1:1-23 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of אלהים God, and Timothy our brother, to the saints and faithful brothers in Christ in Colossae. Grace to you and peace from אלהים God our Father.
We give thanks always to God the Father of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ when we pray for you, since we heard about your faith in Christ Jesus and the love that you have for all the saints, because of the hope reserved for you in heaven, which you have heard about beforehand in the word of truth, the gospel, that has come to you, just as also in all the world it is bearing fruit and increasing, just as also among you from the day you heard about and understood the grace of God in truth, just as you learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow slave who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, who also made clear to us your love in the Spirit.
Because of this also we, from the day we heard about it, did not cease praying for you, and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual insight, so that you may live in a manner worthy of the יהוה Lord, to please him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good deed and increasing in the knowledge of אלהים God, enabled with all power, according to his glorious might, for all steadfastness and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light, who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything, because he was well pleased for all the fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by making peace through the blood of his cross, through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
And although you were formerly alienated and enemies in attitude, because of your evil deeds, but now you have been reconciled by his physical body through death, to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you remain in the faith, established and steadfast and not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
What is the relationship between "the firstborn over all creation", "because all in the heavens and on the earth were created by him", "the firstborn from the dead" & "I hold the keys of death and of Hades" ?
My faith believes יהוה Yahweh of hosts is an eternal voice in Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God who humbly left Holy throne to be clothed in human flesh. Eternal אלהים God had one voice in a Holy body for a sin sacrifice (while the other two voices allowed cruxificion to brutally happen).
Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God has one image, which has one mouth. Every human body shows the image of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
ChristMy understanding of trinity = tri-unity = three plural voices unified in one Holy unique אלהים God, who alone is to be worshipped. Eternal Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God can have the mouth of an Archangel (messenger servant) give sound to words from Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
Your admission of faith contradicts itself in several places. When you reject Christ, your theories are fluffy and meaningless. Claiming your trinity god three plural voices is firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the dead actually gores against God being eternal. Trinitarians simply do not believe in Jesus Christ as this one demonstrates. They even reject to post the trinity doctrine they claim to believe in...which shows you their true colors!
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
ChristTo me, The Christ = The Messiah = The Holy One of Israel is an eternal portion (one voice) of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.@Brother Rando December 21 * The angel that has Gods' Name in him יהוה is Jehovah's means of Salvation as the Christ.
I haven't revealed the phrase Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God that you use time after time for a reason. To show the CF that you show yourself someone who is completely ignorant in the Name you use,
Therefore, I have plugged your phrase into Google translate to use what English Words you are using, And what comes up every time in using Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ? Thank for advertising JW.org for us! The Watchtower is Correct and the LEB even agrees with it! Hallelujah! (Rev 19:1 LEB)
The phrase Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God means "Holy Jehovah Lord God" and you plastered it thousands of times all over the Christian Forum. Seems to me Jehovah has made a Donkey talk again and forced the Donkey to Praise the Name of Jehovah. 😁
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"You are in absolute error and trying to deceive. This scripture is not found in ANY TRINITY DOCTRINE, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36) as I already stated very clearly."
You are welcome to your opinion of me, the trinity, or even how you think Acts 2:36 fits into your belief system as a proof text against the trinity.
You've changed your original assertion – "Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)".
Having now removed "Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ", general statement, and replaced that section with "This scripture is not found in ANY TRINITY DOCTRINE", specific statement, thereby changing the entire focus of this new assertion so it is related to a specific text being discussed within trinty doctrine.
If your assertion was clear to begin with as you state, "as I already stated very clearly.", then there is no need for you to modify what you originally asserted, "Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)".
In my view, by attempting to reconstruct your original assertion you are simply looking for an exit from what has proven to be a statement of error on your part.
The single, and only, issue I am discussing with you in this thread is that the use of "Lord" and "Christ" relating to Jesus is historically evidenced throughout trinity teaching even to present day – contrary to the opening line in your first post. To which, I provided more than enough examples in my previous post to substantiate the error of your assertion.
Keeping our focus on that single issue, I still would like very much to read from you what you reject as not trinitarian doctrine in those provided examples using "Lord" and "Christ"?
Would it be, "our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.", "For our God, Jesus Christ", "the deity of Christ", or "Christ is not “a kind of second God created by God the Father.””? You don't regard that language as exuding trinitarian doctrine?
Also, would you point to where on the jw.org website the WT explicitly teaches that in trinitarian doctrine Jesus is neither "Lord" or "Christ" as you have argued – I have yet to find statements to that effect.
As a final wrap up to this post I would like to leave you with several excerpts from Gregory of Nyssa's AGAINST EUNOMIUS where he espouses trinity doctrine making reference to Acts 2:33, 36.
He writes the following:
- "Now that we have had presented to us this preliminary view of existences, it may be opportune to examine the passage before us. It is said, then, by Peter to the Jews, “Him God made Lord and Christ, this Jesus Whom ye crucified,” while on our part it is said that it is not pious to refer the word “made” to the Divine Nature of the Only-begotten, but that it is to be referred to that “form of a servant,” which came into being by the Incarnation, in the due time of His appearing in the flesh; and, on the other hand, those who press the phrase the contrary way say that in the word “made” the Apostle indicates the pretemporal generation of the Son." (Schaff, Philip and Henry Wace, eds., Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, etc. NPNF-2 V. Accordance electronic edition, version 3.3. 14 vols. New York: Christian Literature Publishing, 1890.)
- "He further explains this yet more clearly by his words in what follows, “being exalted by the right hand of God.” Who then was “exalted”? He that was lowly, or he that was the highest? and what else is the lowly but the humanity? what else is the highest but the divinity? Surely, God needs not to be exalted, seeing that he is the highest. It follows, then, that the apostle’s meaning is that the humanity was exalted: and its exaltation was effected by its becoming Lord and Christ. And this took place after the passion. It is not therefore the pretemporal existence of the Lord that the apostle indicates by the word made but that change of the lowly to the lofty that was effected “by the right hand of God.”" (Martin, Francis and Evan Smith, eds., Acts. ACCS 5. ICCS/Accordance electronic edition, version 2.8. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2006.)
- "And again, ‘This is known to any one who even in a small degree applies his mind to the meaning of the Apostle’s words, that he is not setting forth to us the mode of the Divine existence, but is introducing the terms which belong to the Incarnation; for he says, Him God made Lord and Christ, this Jesus Whom ye crucified, evidently laying stress by the demonstrative word on that in Him which was human and was seen by all.’" (Schaff, Philip and Henry Wace, eds., Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, etc. NPNF-2 V. Accordance electronic edition, version 3.3. 14 vols. New York: Christian Literature Publishing, 1890.)
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@Pages "He further explains this yet more clearly by his words in what follows, “being exalted by the right hand of God.” Who then was “exalted”? He that was lowly, or he that was the highest? and what else is the lowly but the humanity? what else is the highest but the divinity? Surely, God needs not to be exalted, seeing that he is the highest. It follows, then, that the apostle’s meaning is that the humanity was exalted: and its exaltation was effected by its becoming Lord and Christ. And this took place after the passion. It is not therefore the pretemporal existence of the Lord that the apostle indicates by the word made but that change of the lowly to the lofty that was effected “by the right hand of God.”" (Martin, Francis and Evan Smith, eds., Acts. ACCS 5. ICCS/Accordance electronic edition, version 2.8. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2006.)
I see you are going away from the trinity doctrine. If Jesus was God then how could he be "exalted by the right hand of God"? And WHO exalted him? According to trinitarians, there is (No Lord or Christ) in the their trinity doctrine. You mean Jesus isn't God himself and therefore was "exalted by the right hand of God"?
If God became better than angels by inheriting a Name, WHO named God and why was he worse than the angels in eternity? (Hebrews 1:4 LEB)
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The issue engaged in our discussion is solely on whether Jesus is referred to as Lord and Christ within trinity teaching. Sufficient exhibits of historical documents have proven that Jesus is referred to as Lord and Christ in trinity doctrine.
However, I will detour for the moment to answer questions raised on Gregory's AGAINST EUNOMIUS writing which I cited.
"I see you are going away from the trinity doctrine."
How so? Clarify, and provide details for how you arrived at this assumption.
"If Jesus was God then how could he be "exalted by the right hand of God"?"
In the three citations I provided in my previous post Gregory answers your questions in stating the following:
- "while on our part it is said that it is not pious to refer the word “made” to the Divine Nature of the Only-begotten, but that it is to be referred to that “form of a servant,” which came into being by the Incarnation, in the due time of His appearing in the flesh"
- "Who then was “exalted”? He that was lowly, or he that was the highest? and what else is the lowly but the humanity? what else is the highest but the divinity?"
- "It follows, then, that the apostle’s meaning is that the humanity was exalted:"
- "that he is not setting forth to us the mode of the Divine existence, but is introducing the terms which belong to the Incarnation;"
- "evidently laying stress by the demonstrative word on that in Him which was human and was seen by all."
(cf. Phil. 2:6-7; Mt. 1:20; Jn. 1:14; Ro. 8:3; Acts 2:33, 36)
This is something that Gregory considered to be common knowledge amongst Christians by that period of time, stating "This is known to any one who even in a small degree applies his mind to the meaning of the Apostle’s words," – (His opening words in the third citation I supplied in my prior post).
The above points made by Gregory are in regard to Jesus who in his humanity is exalted. It is not the eternal Son (Divine Nature, divinity, Divine existence, as stated by Gregory) receiving exaltation as Gregory writes, "Surely, God needs not to be exalted, seeing that he is the highest.".
This divine and human nature united in Jesus may be expressed by the following: "fully human, but not merely human, – also fully divine" (Morris).
"And WHO exalted him?"
The Father. God is one in Being and three in Person (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
"You mean Jesus isn't God himself and therefore was "exalted by the right hand of God"?"
See responses above.
"According to trinitarians, there is (No Lord or Christ) in the their trinity doctrine."
Is this some new development that you can, in support of this claim, post documentation?
If it is just a continuation of your initial assertion of this thread; then, the documentation in my preceding responses have shown that assertion is without merit and simply false.
And, I might add, where does the WT prescribe in writing that Jesus is neither referred to as "Lord" or "Christ" within trinitarian teaching?
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@Brother Rando "According to trinitarians, there is (No Lord or Christ) in the their trinity doctrine."
@Pages Is this some new development that you can, in support of this claim, post documentation?
@Brother Rando I'm sure if there was, you would certainly want the trinity doctrine POSTED that had it.... but it doesn't exist.
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This response suggests you contrived this false assertion of "trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ" willfully and knowingly. I asked you to support your claim with documentation, and you state in your response "but it doesn't exist."
"@Brother Rando "According to trinitarians, there is (No Lord or Christ) in the their trinity doctrine."
@Pages Is this some new development that you can, in support of this claim, post documentation?"
"@Brother Rando I'm sure if there was, you would certainly want the trinity doctrine POSTED that had it.... but it doesn't exist."
By that answer you have established there is no documentation of any kind to support your asserted position; and, you have conceded that your position is in complete error and false.
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@Pages By that answer you have established there is no documentation of any kind to support your asserted position; and, you have conceded that your position is in complete error and false.
Well then, POST your trinity doctrine that states God made Jesus Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36) The scripture is true and your trinity doctrine is false...and in error... you think you would be proud to share your doctrine and yet you are acting so cowardly. Since you back the Catholic trinity just POST it.
If God is MADE up of three sperate persons that have No Names, it should be rather easy to find a single scripture. Claiming Jesus Christ is in the trinity doctrine is simply a lie. So prove it with the trinity doctrine or is it because you believe God is MADE up of three colors or three voices??
The Only hint of three things is at (Rev 16:13 LEB) See the three mouths??
- "And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs."
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@Brother Rando December 21 Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)
Logos Bible Study search in all books for headword:trinity found 135 resources in my Logos library having a trinity article. Logos Bible Study search in all books for bible:ac2.36 IN headword:trinity found 7 resources in my Logos library having a trinity article that includes Acts 2.
The Modern Catholic Encyclopedia title page shows Roman Catholic review (Nihil obstat & Imprimatur):
Nihil obstat: Robert C. Harren, Censor deputatus.
Imprimatur: X John F. Kinney, Bishop of St. Cloud, Minnesota, 13 August 2004.
Michael Glazier and Monika K. Hellwig, The Modern Catholic Encyclopedia (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 2004).
Acts 2:36 is mentioned in Trinity article in The Modern Catholic Encyclopedia:
The seeds of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity are to be found in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the post-Easter experience of the Spirit, and the worship of early Christian communities. However, it was not until the fourth century that these seeds were to flower into a full-blown coherent doctrine.
Of particular significance in the life of Jesus is the experience of God as Abba and the resulting self-understanding of Jesus as Son. Equally important in the life of Jesus is the drama of the Cross which arose out of Jesus’ radical commitment to the coming reign of God the Father. Closely connected to the Cross is the outpouring of the Spirit through the exaltation of Christ. Reflection by the early Church on the experience of Jesus and the God encountered in the person of Jesus as well as the ongoing experience of the newness of the Spirit of Jesus in the world gave rise to a series of Christian insights which paved the way for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. These insights include the affirmation that Jesus is the Christ (Mark 8:29; John 20:31), who is the Lord (Rom 10:9; Acts 2:36; 16:31; Phil 2:11), the Son of God (Rom 1:3–4; Gal 4:4; Mark 1:1; Matt 3:17; John 3:35–36), the Word made flesh (John 1:14). In addition, the Christian declaration that God is love (1 John 4:16), the soteriological claim that Jesus is the Savior of the world (Luke 2:11; John 4:42; Acts 4:12), and the Christian liturgical practice of addressing God through Christ in the Spirit also lie behind the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Thirdly, the strong sense of Jesus as the mediator between God and humanity (1 Tim 2:5), and therefore as mediator of creation (1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:15–16; John 1:1–3), of salvation (Eph 1:7; Titus 3:4–7) and of the worship of God (Eph 5:20), is also an important element in the development of a Trinitarian consciousness in the early Church. The weaving together of these Christologies, theologies, soteriologies, and liturgies issued in the full-blown doctrine of the Blessed Trinity in the fourth century.
Michael Glazier and Monika K. Hellwig, The Modern Catholic Encyclopedia (Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 2004), 844.
Highlighted sentence shows @Brother Rando assertions "Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)" & "Claiming Jesus Christ is in the trinity doctrine is simply a lie." are factually false.
Eternal truth is consistent. Remember many Unfulfilled Watch Tower Society predictions provide me reason NOT to trust the inconsistent human organization (along with a number of doctrinal changes over the years). True Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God prophets (communication channels) pass test of 100% accuracy.
More Watchtower Society inconsistency is "trinitarian" assertions (truth twisted with falsehoods) that lack collaboration by credible sources. Lack of credibility proves alignment with our spiritual adversary, the father of lies, who wants every human to experience eternity separated from Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ❤️ Love. Most (if not all) JW.org "trinitarian" assertions do NOT describe my faith belief.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
ChristHighlighted sentence shows @Brother Rando assertions "Since the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ, trinitarians refuse that "God made him both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36)" & "Claiming Jesus Christ is in the trinity doctrine is simply a lie." are factually false.
No trinity doctrine is listed. Both @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christand @Pages are trinitarians whose beliefs are void one another out.Since the scripture (Acts 2:36 LEB) simply states God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ is COMPLETLY ABSENT from any trinity doctrine. The can't POST the trinity doctrine because it is Heresy and Demonic and OMITS Jesus Christ in it.
Thank you for providing proof about "@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christ- Thankful for gentle & kind interaction with Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God to learn correct Holy יהוה pronunciation." http://tinyurl.com/5efn9kze Reads HOLY JEHOVAH GOD
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You are welcome to your opinion on these things and of course to express that opinion. However, upon doing so, it is necessary to provide factual and verifiable documentation, along with your reasoning, to support your claim; otherwise, you are just making unfounded assertions. Which is not a recipe for quality discussion.
For example, you have yet to provide the source for the following claim "According to trinitarians there is no Lord or Christ in the trinity doctrine". Which trinitarians – do they have names? Where is a verifiable citation of their statement you quote?
In another example, it was asked if the WT teaches "According to trinitarians there is no Lord or Christ in the trinity doctrine"; if so, where on the jw.org website can that teaching be found? Surely you know? Or is it something not taught by the WT?
So far, not one post of yours in this thread has provided anything within it supportive of your assertions – absolutely nothing has been given to substantiate the truth of your stated position. And, it must be noted that repeating the same assertion over and over without being grounded in factual support is simply not an argument at all.
Meanwhile, you have received numerous examples, all of which show your stated position to be in error and without fact; which, I'm certain will be exceedingly clear to those taking the time to read this thread.
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You are welcome to your opinion on these things and of course to express that opinion. However, upon doing so, it is necessary to provide factual and verifiable documentation, along with your reasoning, to support your claim; otherwise, you are just making unfounded assertions. Which is not a recipe for quality discussion.
`Thank you for your response. I'm pretty sure if you could find a trinity doctrine that states the names in it I would be willing to see it. However, I have asked you @Pages and @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christrepeatedly to kindly POST the trinity you are claiming this with no avail. It has become evident Posting your trinity doctrine would not be advantageous to you. The issue could be settled in a few seconds. Just POST it.- the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ
- the trinity doctrine never claims Jesus to be God
- Jesus is NOT in the trinity doctrine
- the trinity doctrine is catholic propaganda of the 4th century
- the trinity doctrine is man-made and is not eternal since it came about in the 4th century
I would love to see the trinity doctrine of the 1st century or even before the time God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36 LEB) 😀 Just POST it and we will go over it line by line. So I state by your you own words about the trinity doctrine.
You are welcome to your opinion on these things and of course to express that opinion. However, upon doing so, it is necessary to provide factual and verifiable documentation, along with your reasoning, to support your claim; otherwise, you are just making unfounded assertions. Which is not a recipe for quality discussion.
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@Brother Rando December 30 * the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ
@Brother Rando December 30 * the trinity doctrine never claims Jesus to be God
@Brother Rando December 30 * Jesus is NOT in the trinity doctrine
@Brother Rando December 30 * the trinity doctrine is catholic propaganda of the 4th century
@Brother Rando December 30 * the trinity doctrine is man-made and is not eternal since it came about in the 4th century
Please provide your trinity doctrine statement source(s). Also, does "Jesus" = "Michael the Archangel" ?
Note: angelic interpretation of "Jesus" would make first three statements factually correct (from my understanding of trinity = tri-unity = three plural voices unified in one Holy unique אלהים God, who alone is to be worshipped).
@Brother Rando 'trinity doctrine' statements do NOT describe my faith belief.
@Brother Rando December 30 Both @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christand @Pages are trinitarians whose beliefs are void one another out.Hence, curious about @Brother Rando rational for labeling me "trinitarian" ?
Also curious what "void one another out" is supposed to say ?
To me,
Christby @Brother Rando shows my faith does NOT believe "Jesus Christ" = "Michael the Archangel"My identity is a follower of The Way. John 14:6-7 LEB =>
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.”
The word 'trinity' does NOT appear in original language scriptures inspired by Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God. Hence "trinity" has NOT been my study focus. My apologies for NOT knowing what 'trinity' human expressions are agreeable to me & what has opportunity for improvement. My primary focus is seeking Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's eternal truth while being aware that our spiritual adversary is the father of lies, who twists truth with falsehood (lies) in a multitude of various ways: e.g. untrustworthy Watchtower Society.
@Brother Rando December 30 I would love to see the trinity doctrine of the 1st century or even before the time God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36 LEB) 😀 Just POST it and we will go over it line by line.
Thankful for Paul discussing Yeshua in Scriptures that began in Jewish synagogues whenever Paul arrived in a city (in the 1st century). Acts 2 audience included obedient Jews in the Jewish Temple. Part of my learning is ancient Jewish culture, which was assumed by a number of New Testament human authors.
The World History Encyclopedia has a Trinity article that includes:
Tertullian (155-200 CE) was the first to use the Latin term 'trinity'. He described it as a "divine economy" as in the household or monarchy of God. God the Father laid out the divine plan, God the Son carried out the will of the Father, and God the Spirit motivated the will of God in believers (Adversus Praxean, 27). In the Western Roman Empire, churches had been using what was called The Old Roman Creed, or The Apostles’ Creed by the 4th century CE. It included trinitarian beliefs, but without the philosophical concepts that became part of Nicaea.
The earliest use of the word 'trinity' was in the 2nd century (so @Brother Rando desire for 1st century 'trinity doctrine' does NOT exist). Many humans have written about the trinity (tri-unity) over the centuries, which includes the World History Encyclopedia Trinity article, whose opening paragraph has opportunities for improvement. To me, אלהים Will (later became The Father) provided direction, אלהים Word (later became The Son) spoke to create everything, & אלהים Breath did miraculous wonders. All of eternal Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God participated in creating everything. My desire is truly Bible study with prayer to personally experience Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
To me, אלהים Word humbly left Holy throne in Heaven to be clothed in human flesh for the purpose of offering a Holy human body as the substitute sin offering for all humankind. After physical body resurrection, אלהים Will & אלהים Breath made (restored) אלהים Word as eternal King Righteousness (Melchizedek) in Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
Remember my December 24 comment in this discussion had a Bible question "What is plural in the One unique אלהים God ?" NOT answered by @Brother Rando.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 My understanding of trinity = tri-unity = three plural voices unified in one Holy unique אלהים God, who alone is to be worshipped. Eternal Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God can have the mouth of an Archangel (messenger servant) give sound to words from Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
@Brother Rando December 24 Your admission of faith contradicts itself in several places. When you reject Christ, your theories are fluffy and meaningless. Claiming your trinity god three plural voices is firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the dead actually gores against God being eternal.
Please explain contradiction in my faith belief. To me, "firstborn" communicates pre-eminence, which is consistent with eternal King Righteousness (Melchizedek) ruling over everything.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 Remember Jesus shares " יהוה Righteousness of we "/" יהוה Righteousness of us " name as it is written in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>
“Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 To me, the English pronoun 'our' ('of us') in phrase ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’ expresses our human view of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God's point of view for the last two Hebrew words יהוה צדקנו is " יהוה Righteousness of we " (consistent with One Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God being uniquely unlike any created being by having more than one voice, a plural unique God as described in Deuteronomy 6:4
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 sh'-MA yis-ra-AYL a-do-NAI e-lo-HAY-nu a-do-NAI e-KHAD
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 Israel365 Bible transliteration shows Jews say "a-do-NAI" (Lord) for יהוה (disguise or epithat for use outside the Jewish Temple that attempts to avoid abusing Holy יהוה name as cursing יהוה is punished by death).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 שמע = sh'-MA : Verb, Qal, Imperative, 2nd Person, Masculine, Singular : Hear & Obey
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 ישראל = yis-ra-AYL : Noun, Proper, Singular, Absolute : Israel (Singular Noun for a particular group of people)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 יהוה = "a-do-NAI" (Lord) : Noun, Proper, Masculine, Singular, Absolute : the one who was & the one who is & the one who is to come
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 אלהינו = e-lo-HAY-nu : Noun, Common, Masculine, Plural, Construct (of) & Pronoun, Suffixed, 1st Person, Plural : God
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 יהוה = "a-do-NAI" (Lord) : Noun, Proper, Masculine, Singular, Absolute : the one who was & the one who is & the one who is to come
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 אחד = e-KHAD : numeral, cardinal, singular, absolute : one/only
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 Hebrew nouns have three spelling variations: singular, dual (eyes, ears, ...), & plural. What is plural in the One unique אלהים God ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 24 To me, the English pronoun 'our' ('of us') in phrase ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’ expresses our human view of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
@Brother Rando - יהוה לֹהִים - http://tinyurl.com/4dekf2p6
- Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God - http://tinyurl.com/nhjj68c4
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@Pages December 30 @Brother Rando
@Pages December 30 You are welcome to your opinion on these things and of course to express that opinion. However, upon doing so, it is necessary to provide factual and verifiable documentation, along with your reasoning, to support your claim; otherwise, you are just making unfounded assertions. Which is not a recipe for quality discussion.
@Pages December 30 For example, you have yet to provide the source for the following claim "According to trinitarians there is no Lord or Christ in the trinity doctrine". Which trinitarians – do they have names? Where is a verifiable citation of their statement you quote?
@Pages December 30 In another example, it was asked if the WT teaches "According to trinitarians there is no Lord or Christ in the trinity doctrine"; if so, where on the jw.org website can that teaching be found? Surely you know? Or is it something not taught by the WT?
@Pages December 30 So far, not one post of yours in this thread has provided anything within it supportive of your assertions – absolutely nothing has been given to substantiate the truth of your stated position. And, it must be noted that repeating the same assertion over and over without being grounded in factual support is simply not an argument at all.
@Pages December 30 Meanwhile, you have received numerous examples, all of which show your stated position to be in error and without fact; which, I'm certain will be exceedingly clear to those taking the time to read this thread.
Concur about @Brother Rando repeating the same assertion over and over is simply not an argument at all. Also agree @Brother Rando has NOT provided any credible support for @Brother Rando assertions. Sad for @Brother Rando merely repeating what @Brother Rando believes that deprives @Brother Rando of truly knowing & experiencing Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ❤️
Google Translate of יהוה (Modern Hebrew to English) has discussion posts in thread => "How does the Hebrew Tetragrammaton יהוה read in Your Translator?" so @Brother Rando posting here avoids "trinity doctrine" requests of @Brother Rando to provide source(s) for @Brother Rando assertions.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Google Translate of יהוה (Modern Hebrew to English) has discussion posts in thread => "How does the Hebrew Tetragrammaton יהוה read in Your Translator?" so @Brother Rando posting here avoids "trinity doctrine" requests of @Brother Rando to provide source(s) for @Brother Rando assertions.
Neither @Pages or @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christwill POST their trinity doctrine nor is the trinity eternal or in the Bible because there or No Names in the trinity doctrine. Therefore, their claim is void. Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God
I would love to see the trinity doctrine of the 1st century or even before the time God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36 LEB) 😀 Just POST it and we will go over it line by line.
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"Thank you for your response. I'm pretty sure if you could find a trinity doctrine that states the names in it I would be willing to see it."
Several thoughts come to mind when I read the above; the first is, you didn't read the examples provided in this thread; the second is, you didn't understand what was written in those examples; the third, that you simply don't know what is trinity doctrine.
The fourth possibility is that you at least glanced at the documentation, understood that they provided proof of the error in your opening assertion, then modified that original assertion in an attempt to shift its focus in the hope of escaping from the error of this pet theory. This scenario would seem to be close to the mark, if not fully on the mark, just by reading through the progression of your posts in this thread.
The following is another demonstration of assertion lacking any iota of substance for support. As @KS4J has already requested of you – I also request the source documentation for these statements if they should exist.
"the trinity doctrine never refers to Jesus as Lord and Christ"
"the trinity doctrine never claims Jesus to be God"
"Jesus is NOT in the trinity doctrine"
"the trinity doctrine is catholic propaganda of the 4th century"
"the trinity doctrine is man-made and is not eternal since it came about in the 4th century"
What exactly is your definition for the term doctrine? And also, how do you define the trinity? Do you define it in the same manner as the WT definition you cited in an earlier post.
"Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?"
"The Trinity doctrine is defined this way, although there are many variations: “Three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God.”
You state above that the "the trinity doctrine never claims Jesus to be God", and "Jesus is NOT in the trinity doctrine", yet a search on jw.org will disprove those assertions entirely. Once again, you and the WT are at odds with one another on this subject.
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"Thank you for your response. I'm pretty sure if you could find a trinity doctrine that states the names in it I would be willing to see it."
@Pages - Several thoughts come to mind when I read the above; the first is, you didn't read the examples provided in this thread; the second is, you didn't understand what was written in those examples; the third, that you simply don't know what is trinity doctrine. You state above that the "the trinity doctrine never claims Jesus to be God", and "Jesus is NOT in the trinity doctrine",
Yep, that is what I STATED so prove me wrong and POST the trinity doctrine that states the LORD JESUS CHRIST in YOUR TRINITY DOCTRINE!
- @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christrefuses to Post His trinity doctrine that he claims that God is MADE UP of three colors. POST IT
I would wholeheartedly welcome to SEE the Phrase "God made him both Lord and Christ" in the trinity doctrine. You both believe in the catholic trinity doctrine and both have very different renderings that void one another's rending of this very trinity doctrine that popped up in the 4th century.... Proof the trinity was made and created by man-made tradition by those who deny JESUS CHRIST
- That is why JESUS CHRIST in NOT in Any trinity doctrine.
- Just admit that it doesn't exist otherwise you would have Definitely Posted the the bogus trinity doctrine several years ago.
- @Pages and @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christhave utterly failed to POST their MADE UP DOCTRINE. 😎
- @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
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Puzzled by @Brother Rando starting this discussion with a "trinity doctrine" assertion, but not providing any credible sources for @Brother Rando assertions.
Also puzzling is requests by @Pages for @Brother Rando to provide defintions of "doctrine" and "trinity" that received no reply by @Brother Rando.
Still curious about @Brother Rando "trinitarian" label for me as "trinitarian" is NOT a word used by me to describe my faith belief. Also @Brother Rando assumes a "trinity doctrine" for me, which is NOT explicitly part of my faith belief as the word "trinity" is NOT in the Holy words inspired by Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God.
Many of my questions for @Brother Rando remain unanswered: e.g. What is plural in the One unique אלהים God ?
Latin word "trinity" did not appear until the second half of the second century so @Brother Rando desire "to see the trinity doctrine of the 1st century" has historical challenge. Curious if @Brother Rando has read "The Didache" or "Didascalia Apostolorum" ?
Logos Bible Study search in all books in my Logos library for ("1st century" OR "first century") IN headword:trinity found four resources, which included a Trinity article published in 1894 "Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature" that is much too long for posting in a comment, which provided some historical insights =>
II. History of the Doctrine.—Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost make one God, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us. It is therefore to be expected that theologians should differ widely in their opinions respecting it, and that in their attempts to illustrate it they should have pursued various methods.
1. As Held by the Primitive Christians.—For the first age the Scripture is sufficient evidence of the Christians’ practice. For, not to insist upon the precept of honoring the Son as they honored the Father; or the form of baptism, in which they were commanded to join the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in one act of worship; or the injunction to believe in the Son as they believed in the Father, let reference be made only to their example and practice. Stephen, the protomartyr, when he was sealing his confession with his blood, prayed to Christ, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” and “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge” (Acts 7:59, 60). Paul asserts that he baptized only in the name of Christ (1 Cor. 1:13). Notice also his constant use of the name of Christ in invocation. There is the well-known fact that the early believers were known as those who called on the name of Christ (Acts 9:14, 9:21; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Tim. 2:22).
2. As Held in the 2d and 3d Centuries.—Towards the end of the 1st century, and during the 2d, many learned men came over both from Judaism and paganism to Christianity. These brought with them into the Christian schools of theology their Platonic ideas and phraseology, and they especially borrowed from the philosophical writings of Philo. As was very natural, they confined themselves, in their philosophizing respecting the Trinity, principally to the Logos; connecting the same ideas with the name λόγος as had been done before by Philo and other Platonists. Differing on several smaller points, they agreed perfectly in the following general views, viz.: the Logos existed before the creation of the world; he was begotten, however, by God, and sent forth from him. By this Logos the Neo-Platonists understood the infinite understanding of God, belonging from eternity to his nature as a power, but that, agreeably to the divine will, it began to exist out of the divine nature. It is therefore different from God, and yet, as begotten of him, is entirely divine. By means of this Logos they supposed that God at first created, and now preserves and governs, the universe. Their views respecting the Holy Spirit are far less clearly expressed, though most of them considered him a substance emanating from the Father and the Son, to whom, on this account, divinity must be ascribed. These philosophical Christians asserted rather the divineness of the Son and Spirit, and their divine origin, than their equal deity with the Father. Justin Martyr expressly declares that the Son is in God what the understanding (νοῦς) is in man, and that the Holy Spirit is that divine power to act and execute which Plato calls ἀρετή. With this representation Theophilus of Antioch, Clemens of Alexandria, and Origen substantially agree. According to Tertullian, the persons of the Trinity are gradus, formæ, species unius Dei. Thus we find that the belief in the subordination of the Son to the Father, for which Arianism is the later name, was commonly received by most of those fathers of the 2d and 3d centuries who assented, in general, to the philosophy of Plato. Another class of learned, philosophizing Christians substituted another theory on the subject of the Trinity, which, however, was none the less formed rather from their philosophical ideas than from the instructions of the Bible. Among the writers of this class was Praxeas, of the 2d century, who contended that the Father, Son, and Spirit were not distinguished from each other as individual subjects; but that God was called Father, so far as he was creator and governor of the world; Son (Λόγος), so far as he had endowed the man Jesus with extraordinary powers, etc. He, in accordance with this view, denied any higher, pre-existing nature in Christ; and with him agreed Artemon, Noetus, and Beryllus of Bostra. Sabellius regarded the terms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as merely describing different divine works, and various modes of divine revelation.
In the following table the writers of the first three centuries on the subject of the Trinity are ranged according to their opinions:
Catholic. :: Monarchians.
Justin Martyr. :: Unitarians.
Theophilus of Antioch. :: Theodotus.
Athenagoras. :: Artemon.
Irenæus. :: Paul of Samosata.
Tertullian.
Origen. :: Patripassians.
Dionysius Alexaudrinus. :: Praxeas.
Cyprian. :: Noetns.
Notatian. :: Beryllos of Bostrn
Dionvaios Romanna. :: Sabellius.
Among the terms introduced in the discussion of the doctrine of the Trinity during this period the following are the most common, viz. (1.) Τρίας, introduced by Theophilus of Antioch in the 2d century, and often used by Origen in the 3d century. Tertullian translated it into Latin by the word trinitas, of which the English word is an exact rendering. (2.) Οὐσία, ὑπόστασις. These terms were not sufficiently distinguished from each other by the Greek fathers of the 2d and 3d centuries, and were often used by them as entirely synonymous. By the word ὑπόστασις, the older Greek fathers understood only a really existing subject, in opposition to a nonentity, or to a merely ideal existence; in which sense they also not infrequently used the word οὐσία. (3.) Persona. This word was first employed by Tertullian, and by it he means an individual, a single being, distinguished from others by certain peculiar qualities, attributes, and relations; and so he calls Pater, Filius, Spiritus Sanctus, tres personæ (three persons), at the same time that he ascribes to them unitas substantiæ (unity of substance), because they belong to the divine nature (οὐσία) existing from eternity.
We call attention to the following as shedding light upon the practice of the Church during this period. Pliny, a judge under Trajan, in the beginning of the 2d century took the confessions of some accused Christians, and says, “They declared that they were used to meet on a certain day before it was light, and, among other parts of their worship, sing a hymn to Christ as their God.” Polycarp (Ep. ad Philip. n. 12) joins God the Father and the Son together in his prayers for grace and benediction upon men. Justin Martyr answering, in his Second Apology, the charge of atheism brought against them by the heathen, answers. “That they worshipped and adored still the God of righteousness and his Son, as also the Holy Spirit of prophecy.” Athenagoras answers the charge of atheism after the same manner. Similar testimony is afforded by the writings of Lucian the heathen. Theophilus of Antioch, Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, Novatian, and others, illustrating the practice of the Church in paying divine honors to the Son and Holy Spirit.
John M’Clintock and James Strong, “Trinity,” Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, 1881), 553.
Challenge for theological discussion is the words and their associated meaning(s): e.g. untrustworthy Watchtower Society believing "Jesus Christ" = "Michael the Archangel" so JW.org adherents sound "Christian" while actually believing in two deities (so truly does not know the one Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God, who uniquely has three voices).
@Brother Rando December 30 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christrefuses to Post His trinity doctrine that he claims that God is MADE UP of three colors.Remember three light colors visibly combine as one: Bright Red light + Bright Green Light + Bright Blue Light => Bright White Light.
Two assertions by @Brother Rando about me are false: personal "trinity doctrine" for me does NOT exist ("trinity" is NOT used in my description of presonal faith beliefs along with NOT in my interaction with Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God) & "claims that God is made up of three colors".
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christ- Latin word "trinity" did not appear until the second half of the second century so @Brother Rando desire "to see the trinity doctrine of the 1st century" has historical challenge. Curious if @Brother Rando has read "The Didache" or "Didascalia Apostolorum" ?The New Testament was written in the first century and the English word "trinity" is not found in the Bible nor was English used in the second century. So referring to writings such as the Didache or other catholic dogma as inspired Bible writing is against Holy Spirit. And you still refuse to POST the 'trinity doctrine' you claim of three colors.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christ- Remember three light colors visibly combine as one: Bright Red light + Bright Green Light + Bright Blue Light => Bright White Light.@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christhas failed to provide proof of his 'trinity doctrine' of three colors and therefore cannot be trusted as a reliable source. Certainly no 'trinity doctrine' was written in the first century or before that time.Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God
Remembering @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christunfulfilled prophecies and the wrong math referring to when English was used in the second century is false. The catholic idol of stone demonstrates not three persons or three colors but three mouths. (Rev 16:13 LEB)@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christunfulfilled prophecies - United Allied States (UAS) => https://uas.govt.agency First Presidential Election is Thu 30 July 2020, the 9th of Av 5780 whose history includes Holy Temple destruction in Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 3336 (423 BCE) and by the Romans in 3829 (69 CE).
- "Ye shall make yourselves no idols, neither rear you up for yourselves carved image, or statue, nor shall ye set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down unto it; for I am Jehovah your God" (Leviticus 26:1 Darby)
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You incompletely quote me below missing a salient point.
- (myself having written the following) – You state above that the "the trinity doctrine never claims Jesus to be God", and "Jesus is NOT in the trinity doctrine",
You didn't quote my statement in full – you left out – yet a search on jw.org will disprove those assertions entirely. – so, in complete form it reads as follows:
You state above that the "the trinity doctrine never claims Jesus to be God", and "Jesus is NOT in the trinity doctrine", yet a search on jw.org will disprove those assertions entirely.
How is it that you deny Jesus is God in trinitarian doctrine; while, the Jehovah Witness website spends great effort and time to argue against that same trinitarian doctrine of Jesus being God?
And, aren't you also the one who argues throughout this forum that Jesus (Word) is "a god" and not God as trinitarians believe (Jn. 1:1)? Perhaps the title of this thread you started in 2021 will help.
"Yep, that is what I STATED so prove me wrong and POST the trinity doctrine that states the LORD JESUS CHRIST in YOUR TRINITY DOCTRINE!"
You have received your requested wish since my first posting to you in this thread; moreover, you can't even garner support for your statements from the religious organization you belong to.
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@Brother Rando "Yep, that is what I STATED so prove me wrong and POST the trinity doctrine that states the LORD JESUS CHRIST in YOUR TRINITY DOCTRINE!"
@Pages You have received your requested wish since my first posting to you in this thread; moreover, you can't even garner support for your statements from the religious organization you belong to.
@Brother Rando And yet you refuse to POST the supposedly 'trinity doctrine' that states the LORD JESUS CHRIST in YOUR TRINITY DOCTRINE! That's quite the cowardly move to claim you have something you don't.
- Post Your so called PROOF that the 'trinity doctrine' that states the LORD JESUS CHRIST
- 2,000 years have gone by and plenty of time has passed to make one up and still No Names listed in the DOCTRINE.
- Just like the catholic dogma of the so called catholic epistles of the 4th century ---- They don't exist.... otherwise POST IT!
Notice this catholic idol of the so called trinity?? No three persons..... rather 3 mouths. Now POST your catholic trinity
Not like you going to believe the words of Jesus Christ but here is his quote, "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)
I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that you will surely and quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to take possession of. You will not last long on it, but you will be utterly annihilated. Jehovah will scatter you among the peoples, and just a few of you will survive among the nations to which Jehovah will have driven you. There you will have to serve gods of wood and stone made by human hands, gods that cannot see or hear or eat or smell. (Deut 2:26-28)
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Perhaps leaving this Old Year behind and moving into the New Year will, in some miraculous fashion, bring a measure of critical thinking along with a pinch of understanding and reason to offset the damage done to your cognitive faculties by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. One can only hope.
The following are taken from my previous posts in this thread:
- "For our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is with the Father, is all the more revealed [in His glory]." (Ignatius of Antioch. (1885). The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, pp. 74–75). Christian Literature Company.)
- "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."
- "We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man,"
- "For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man."
- "We believe that Jesus Christ according to His divine nature is the only begotten Son of God, begotten from eternity, not made, nor created" (Historic Creeds and Confessions (electronic ed.). (1997). Lexham Press.)
- "(1) the related issues of the deity of Christ (and the Holy Spirit) and the implications of that teaching for the doctrine of the triune nature of God and (2) the manner in which the divine and human natures are to be related to each other and to the one person of Christ." (Reymond, R. L. (2003). Jesus, Divine Messiah: The New and Old Testament Witness (pp. 9–10). Christian Focus Publications.)
- "Justin is emphatic on the distinction between being begotten and being created. Christ is not “a kind of second God created by God the Father.”" (Hill, C. E. (2014). Paradox Pushers and Persecutors? In M. F. Bird (Ed.), How God Became Jesus: The Real Origins of Belief in Jesus’ Divine Nature—A Response to Bart Ehrman (p. 186). Zondervan.)
- "Now that we have had presented to us this preliminary view of existences, it may be opportune to examine the passage before us. It is said, then, by Peter to the Jews, “Him God made Lord and Christ, this Jesus Whom ye crucified,” while on our part it is said that it is not pious to refer the word “made” to the Divine Nature of the Only-begotten, but that it is to be referred to that “form of a servant,” which came into being by the Incarnation, in the due time of His appearing in the flesh; and, on the other hand, those who press the phrase the contrary way say that in the word “made” the Apostle indicates the pretemporal generation of the Son." (Schaff, Philip and Henry Wace, eds., Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, etc. NPNF-2 V. Accordance electronic edition, version 3.3. 14 vols. New York: Christian Literature Publishing, 1890.)
- "He further explains this yet more clearly by his words in what follows, “being exalted by the right hand of God.” Who then was “exalted”? He that was lowly, or he that was the highest? and what else is the lowly but the humanity? what else is the highest but the divinity? Surely, God needs not to be exalted, seeing that he is the highest. It follows, then, that the apostle’s meaning is that the humanity was exalted: and its exaltation was effected by its becoming Lord and Christ. And this took place after the passion. It is not therefore the pretemporal existence of the Lord that the apostle indicates by the word made but that change of the lowly to the lofty that was effected “by the right hand of God.”" (Martin, Francis and Evan Smith, eds., Acts. ACCS 5. ICCS/Accordance electronic edition, version 2.8. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2006.)
- "And again, ‘This is known to any one who even in a small degree applies his mind to the meaning of the Apostle’s words, that he is not setting forth to us the mode of the Divine existence, but is introducing the terms which belong to the Incarnation; for he says, Him God made Lord and Christ, this Jesus Whom ye crucified, evidently laying stress by the demonstrative word on that in Him which was human and was seen by all.’" (Schaff, Philip and Henry Wace, eds., Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, etc. NPNF-2 V. Accordance electronic edition, version 3.3. 14 vols. New York: Christian Literature Publishing, 1890.)
I suppose you will continue to deny that the above reflect trinity doctrine even though they are quite explicitly trinitarian. The nature of God is – one in Being, trinity in Person.
Happy New Year!!!
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Nice try... but you are still resistant to Posting Your so-called 'trinity doctrine' The games you play just makes you untrustworthy as you dance around the issue at hand. The 'trinity doctrine' has No Names listed nor mentions anything having to doing with the Lord Jesus Christ. Man-made cathodic creeds that came about several hundred years AFTER the first century is simply published opinions.
Just Post the 'trinity doctrine' you claim to believe in. Thank you.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus December 30 Latin word "trinity" did not appear until the second half of the second century so @Brother Rando desire "to see the trinity doctrine of the 1st century" has historical challenge. Curious if @Brother Rando has read "The Didache" or "Didascalia Apostolorum" ?
@Brother Rando December 30 The New Testament was written in the first century and the English word "trinity" is not found in the Bible nor was English used in the second century. So referring to writings such as the Didache or other catholic dogma as inspired Bible writing is against Holy Spirit. And you still refuse to POST the 'trinity doctrine' you claim of three colors.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christ- Remember three light colors visibly combine as one: Bright Red light + Bright Green Light + Bright Blue Light => Bright White Light.@Brother Rando December 30 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christhas failed to provide proof of his 'trinity doctrine' of three colors and therefore cannot be trusted as a reliable source. Certainly no 'trinity doctrine' was written in the first century or before that time.Observe @Brother Rando quoted my physical light example where three colors of light combine to be one, which can be separated into individual colors. Puzzled by @Brother Rando assuming a "trinity doctrine" of three colors exists (none claimed by me).
We agree "The New Testament was written in the first century and the English word "trinity" is not found in the Bible nor was English used in the second century." New Testament books & letters were inspired in the first century.
Matthew 28:18-20 LEB =>
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.”
Notice "the name" is singular that is followed by three voices in "the name". English translation of The Didache repeats baptism =>
Chap. VII.—Now concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: having first uttered all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if thou hast not living water, baptize in other water; and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm. But if thou hast neither, pour water upon the head thrice, into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer and the baptized fast, and whatever others can; but the baptized thou shalt command to fast for one or two days before.
Roswell D. Hitchcock and Francis Brown, eds., The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, trans. Roswell D. Hitchcock and Francis Brown, Revised and Enlarged. (London: John C. Nimmo, 1885), 15.
Like the New Testament, The Didache (Teaching) of the Twelve Apostles was written in Koine Greek.
Paul wrote one long sentence including Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, which is numbered Ephesians 1:3-14 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
Blessed is the אלהים God and Father of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in ❤️ love, having predestined us to adoption through Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace that he bestowed on us in the beloved, in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, that he caused to abound to us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he purposed in him, for the administration of the fullness of times, to bring together all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him in whom also we were chosen, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will, that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory, in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.
Various human theologians composed 'trinity doctrine' later: e.g. creeds & confessions posted earlier in this discussion by @Pages
@Brother Rando December 30 Remembering @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus
Christunfulfilled prophecies and the wrong math referring to when English was used in the second century is false.Puzzled by @Brother Rando memories twisting stuff: e.g. English language developed later. Also thread => United Allied States (UAS) First Presidental Election on Thursday 30 July 2020, the 9th of Av 5780 includes my human apologies.
@Brother Rando December 30 The catholic idol of stone demonstrates not three persons or three colors but three mouths.
Blog article A three-faced Trinity at the Museu Nacional d'Art de Catalunya includes some relevant art history. The "three faced Jesus" was preceded by Greek goddess Hecate by many centuries. Also searching images for "datta guru" or "lord kartikeya" finds more three faced idolatry. Searching images for "Heaven is for Real" Jesus found a painting of the shroud of turin face with "Prince of Peace" painting that has one face with two eyes, one nose, & one mouth => https://melaniejeanjuneau.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/the-real-face-of-jesus.jpg
Puzzled by @Brother Rando starting this discussion with a "trinity doctrine" assertion, but not providing any credible sources for @Brother Rando assertions.
Still curious about @Brother Rando "trinitarian" label for me as "trinitarian" is NOT a word used by me to describe my faith belief.
Many of my questions for @Brother Rando remain unanswered: e.g. What is plural in the One unique אלהים God ?
Keep Smiling 😊
