Do You Believe?
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Do You Believe the testimony by Rodolfo Acevedo Hernandez that includes Charles Taze Russell (1st President of the Watchtower Society that publishes JW.org) ?
Testimony of Heaven & Hell & the condition of Today's Church (as of 26 Oct 2018) =>
Do You Believe eternal punishment is real ?
Luke 16:19-31 LEB =>
“Now a certain man was rich, and dressed in purple cloth and fine linen, feasting sumptuously every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, lay at his gate, and was longing to be filled with what fell from the table of the rich man. But even the dogs came and licked his sores. Now it happened that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes as he was in torment and saw Abraham from a distance, and Lazarus at his side.
And he called out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he could dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am suffering pain in this flame!’
But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received your good things during your life, and Lazarus likewise bad things. But now he is comforted here, but you are suffering pain. And in addition to all these things, a great chasm has been established between us and you, so that those who want to cross over from here to you are not able to do so, nor can they cross over from there to us.’
So he said, ‘Then I ask you, father, that you send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he could warn them, in order that they also should not come to this place of torment!’
But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must listen to them.’
And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent!’
But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
Humanly wonder how many JW's would believe Charles Taze Russell today if he was allowed to speak & described awful torment ?
Thankful for my belief in one long sentence in Ephesians 1:3-14 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
Blessed is the אלהים God and Father of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, having predestined us to adoption through Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace that he bestowed on us in the beloved, in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, that he caused to abound to us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he purposed in him, for the administration of the fullness of times, to bring together all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him in whom also we were chosen, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will, that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory, in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.
Thankfully eternal King Righteous Jesus Christ intimately shares eternal Holy יהוה name as it is written in Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB =>
“Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’
Hebrew noun (construct spelling => of) for righteousness has pronoun, suffixed, 1st person, plural whose literal translation is: 'יהוה Yahweh righteousness of We'
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You know that Luke 16:19-31 was a parable don't you? In other words it was not a literal true story. It was used as an illustration of something else. "He spoke many things to them in parables"-Matthew 13:3.
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@Searching June 5 You know that Luke 16:19-31 was a parable don't you? In other words it was not a literal true story. It was used as an illustration of something else. "He spoke many things to them in parables"-Matthew 13:3.
What parable(s) include individual name(s) ?
Luke 16 begins with "The Parable of the Dishonest Manager" in Luke 16:1-13 that is ridiculed by Pharisess in Luke 16:14, which receives responses from Jesus that includes the story in Luke 16:19-31 spoken in love for the Pharisees (lovers of money like the rich man & has me wondering how many Pharisees had seen Lazarus on earth).
Does flame in Luke 16:19-31 correlate with fire in Isaiah 66:23-24 LEB ? =>
And this shall happen: From new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh shall come to bow in worship before me,” says יהוה Yahweh. “And they shall go out and look at the corpses of the people who have rebelled against me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Gnawing worm description is included in Chapter 14 "Fiery Horrors" of "Climbing into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven":
Warning: Below I write exactly what I saw and experienced. There is some graphic detail that some might find too fear invoking or offensive. I am not able to take any of it out as this is the horrific truth of what I was taken into.
Fear gripped me. I was begging God to get me out of that evil, burning hellhole when I abruptly came face to face with a crowd of people in agony. I also saw demons. Though I had never seen demons before, but I just knew these things were demons. Likewise, I knew the people were dead people who had not gone to Heaven.
I was intensely grateful for the protection around me that was preventing me from being burned and tortured together with the dead people surrounding me.
The dead people were recognizable as people, yet at the same time they were made of an oozing, gray, jelly-like substance, covered with scaly, rotting matter that was peeling off. It would be too kind to call it skin. The matter oozed as worm-like tentacles underneath gnawed on them.
Horrified, I looked towards what had been their faces. As I looked into their eye sockets, I could see behind the sockets and into their souls. I do not know how I knew, but I could see I was looking into their tortured souls.
I will call all the dead people I saw dead-beings. They were definitely dead people, but they were rotting things with live, tormented souls, and this made up their beings.
God, those are dead people there and they don’t have real bodies. They have repugnant, decaying, disgusting, and rotting gray matter covering their bones. And their souls are exposed to those disgusting hideous creatures. This is terrible! This is so cruel.
Michele. They chose this, of their own free will.
Why? Why would they choose this, God? No one would choose this. I knew I had not chosen this and yet I was there.
They chose to believe they did not need my Son — they were good people and did not need Jesus. They said I am a God of love.
I had been one of those people. Shamefully, I recalled the many times I said to God, “I know I have broken my promise to You, God, but I know You understand because You are a God of love.”
I realized how absolutely dishonoring, completely wrong, and ungodly I had been. I had disregarded God’s holiness and taken His love for granted.
I cried out, I’m so sorry, God. I’m so sorry.
God answered, Michele, it is not for me to forgive you, but My Son.
I had not said anything to Jesus. I didn’t think it necessary. Frantic, I asked, Why didn’t anyone come and tell me that? If someone had just come and told me, I would have listened.
I did tell you, Michele. The cross says it all. You just did not want to truly see or hear.
Oh, my God, what have I done? I am sorry, God. I am so sorry. That kept on going through my soul. I had chosen to take my life into my own hands. I had refused to allow Jesus any right to it. I looked around and let out a howl of regret.
Pulford, Michele. Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven (pp. 141-142). Kindle Edition.
Burning description is consistent with Luke 16:19-31 and Isaiah 66:23-24. Also despair expressed by Michele reminds me of Luke 16:19-31 rich man.
How does bow in worship in Isaiah 66:23-24 compare with every knee in Philippians 2:5-11 LEB ? (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.
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First of all the NKJV and NIV both call it a parable along with many others translation.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus comes at the end of a string of parables filled with symbolic, non-literal illustrations (see Luke 15). For instance, in the parable of the lost sheep, Jesus is certainly not teaching that His followers have four legs or eat grass; it’s all metaphor for a greater spiritual point.
It contains an impossible conversation. The has the rich man in “Hades” talking to Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom.” Can people in heaven talk to people in hell? Doesn't seem like a place with no more tears if people in heaven could really watch people burning in hell? Not according to Jesus, who describes a “great gulf fixed” between the saved and the lost (Luke 16:26).
It uses clear symbolic imagery. Do you really think a drop of water could cool rich mans tongue if that were even possible? (verse 24). This has to be symbolic because it can’t possibly happen physically. How much water could pass through the flames, and what help would it provide someone suffering in hell?
Do faithful Christians who die really find their rest in Abraham’s literal bosom? How big is Abraham’s bosom?
This contradicts the rest of Scripture since the Bible says “in death there is no remembrance” in Psalm 6:5. In Ecclesiastes 9:10 we are told "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Instead, those who die are asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16). The Bible compares death to sleep over 50 times. See one example by Jesus in John 11:11–14. In John 14:2,3 Jesus said he would come again and receive his faithful followers and that hasn't even happened yet.
This parable was about the religious leaders and those who received spiritual crumbs from them. Please don't make me explain the whole thing.
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@Searching wrote "It uses clear symbolic imagery. Do you really think a drop of water could cool rich mans tongue if that were even possible? (verse 24). This has to be symbolic because it can’t possibly happen physically. How much water could pass through the flames, and what help would it provide someone suffering in hell?"
@Brother Rando Very good reasoning. I would not believe anyone who made the false claim that Jehovah would fry anyone alive for all eternity if they were called his friend. I mean Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead where the dead are conscience of nothing. ( ) Why would Jesus send his friend to an eternal burning hell?
Such ones deny the power of (Jesus Christ) by claiming hell is more powerful than Christ? Huh, I don't think so.
- “And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (Rev 20:13 KJV)
What do you think he would do to his enemies, if he treated his friends like that?
Visit JW.org Christian Bible is in over 120 (tongues) and over 1,080 languages of Bible Literature. "Keep Conquering Evil" (Romans 12:21)
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@Searching June 8 First of all the NKJV and NIV both call it a parable along with many others translation.
Christian Standard Bible (CSB) has three pericopes in Luke 16:
- Luke 16:1-13 The Parable of the Dishonest Manager
- Luke 16:14-18 Kingdom Values
- Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus
Lexham English Bible (LEB) has four pericopes in Luke 16:
- Luke 16:1-13 The Parable of the Dishonest Manager
- Luke 16:14-17 Hypocrisy, Law and the Kingdom of God
- Luke 16:18 On Divorce
- Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus
King James Version (KJV) Complete Word Study Bible has four pericopes in Luke 16:
- Luke 16:1-15 The Parable of the Dishonest Manager
- Luke 16:16-17 The Law and the Kingdom of God
- Luke 16:18 Divorce
- Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus
New American Standard Bible (NASB) 1977 Edition has two pericopes in Luke 16:
- Luke 16:1-18 The Unrighteous Steward
- Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus
New International Readers Version (NIrV) has three pericopes in Luke 16:
- Luke 16:1-15 The Story of the Clever Manager
- Luke 16:16-18 More Teachings
- Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus
New International Version (NIV) Celebrate Recovery Study Bible has three pericopes in Luke 16:
- Luke 16:1-15 Parable of the Shrewd Manager
- Luke 16:16-18 Additional Teachings
- Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus
New King James Version (NKJV) Holy Bible Study Edition has three pericopes in Luke 16:
- Luke 16:1-13 The Parable of the Unjust Steward
- Luke 16:14-18 The Law, the Prophets, and the Kingdom
- Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus
New Living Translation (NLT) has two OR three pericopes in Luke 16:
- Luke 16:1-13 Parable of the Shrewd Manager
- Luke 16:14-18 The Pharisees and the Law (not in several NLT Bibles)
- Luke 16:19-31 Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus
Pericopes, Chapter #, & Verse # do NOT exist in original language texts; they were added centuries later. Some translations do not have pericopes: e.g. 1901 American Standard Version (ASV) & Complete Jewish Bible (CJB).
@Searching June 8 The story of the rich man and Lazarus comes at the end of a string of parables filled with symbolic, non-literal illustrations (see Luke 15). For instance, in the parable of the lost sheep, Jesus is certainly not teaching that His followers have four legs or eat grass; it’s all metaphor for a greater spiritual point.
Learned from a rancher: when the Bible describes people as sheep, that is NOT a complement. Sheep stink. Sheep do not clean themselves. Sheep need still water for drinking because they fall over when trying to drink from moving water. Sheep lay down & need shepherd's prodding to get moving again. Reading suggestion: A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23.
@Searching June 8 It contains an impossible conversation. The has the rich man in “Hades” talking to Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom.” Can people in heaven talk to people in hell? Doesn't seem like a place with no more tears if people in heaven could really watch people burning in hell? Not according to Jesus, who describes a “great gulf fixed” between the saved and the lost (Luke 16:26).
If the conversation was truly impossible, then why trust God ? The rich man and Abraham did not have human body limitations for conversation. Mystery for me is when my tears are wiped away by Holy God, what will be my knowledge of good and evil. Righteous Abraham could understand and respond to the rich man. Holy God truly knows the name of every creature in Heaven (Praising God) and Hell (Cursing God). Every creature being tormented decided to sin against God with cursed punishment being appropriate for primary sin choice.
@Searching June 8 It uses clear symbolic imagery. Do you really think a drop of water could cool rich mans tongue if that were even possible? (verse 24). This has to be symbolic because it can’t possibly happen physically. How much water could pass through the flames, and what help would it provide someone suffering in hell?
Reading Josephus describe agony of famine in the Roman seige of Jerusalem prior to Jewish Temple destruction in 70 AD provides a parallel for rich man agonizing for a little water. Humanly doubt that a finger dipped in water could have any water survive the flames. Agonizing despair of the rich man is expressed by request for selfish relief.
@Searching June 8 Do faithful Christians who die really find their rest in Abraham’s literal bosom? How big is Abraham’s bosom?
Fascinating questions. Honestly not know what "faithful Christians" describe due to use & abuse of terms over many centuries. To me, original "Christian" labeling in Acts 11:26 reflected worship of יהוה Lord Jesus (instead of Roman gods).
@Searching June 8 This contradicts the rest of Scripture since the Bible says “in death there is no remembrance” in Psalm 6:5.
Psalm 6 was written about 1,000 years before "The Rich Man and Lazarus" that noticeably does not have the rich man mention יהוה Lord אלהים God.
@Brother Rando June 8 ... the dead are conscience of nothing.
Assertion "the dead are conscience of nothing" implies Holy God's story spoken thru Jesus cannot be trusted.
Also contradicts 1st Samuel 28:3-25 where King Saul has a conversation with Samuel, who had died & been buried in Ramah.
@Searching June 8 In Ecclesiastes 9:10 we are told "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
The rich man in Luke 16:19-31 is being tormented while doing no work.
@Searching June 8 Instead, those who die are asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16).
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you will not grieve as also the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus also אלהים God will bring those who have fallen asleep through Jesus together with him. For this we say to you by the word of the יהוה Lord, that we who are alive, who remain until the יהוה Lord’s coming, will not possibly precede those who have fallen asleep. For the יהוה Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of אלהים God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who remain, will be snatched away at the same time together with them in the clouds for a meeting with the יהוה Lord in the air, and thus we will be together with the יהוה Lord always. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Do you believe the man Jesus (human body) clothed an eternal spiritual portion of Holy יהוה Lord אלהים God ?
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To begin with Jesus said in John 3:13 that no one had ascended into heaven except the on who descended from heaven, the Son of man, which in itself makes it impossible for the story of the rich man and Lazarus to have happened since no one had gone to heaven yet according to Jesus.
Confirming that Jesus said that “Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”—Matthew 11:11. Again showing that no one was in heaven yet.
Since no one was in heaven yet, neither was anyone named Lazarus, thus making it a fictitious story or parable.
In fact if everything Jesus said was true no one is in heaven yet because of what he said in John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself". Seems obvious that since he has not returned yet ..well, you get the point. Also confirming that are Pauls words in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 where he said "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
It's nice how if we just take the Bible as fact it all works out.
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@Searching June 16 To begin with Jesus said in John 3:13 that no one had ascended into heaven except the on who descended from heaven, the Son of man, which in itself makes it impossible for the story of the rich man and Lazarus to have happened since no one had gone to heaven yet according to Jesus.
Original language texts do NOT have numbering of chapters & verses. To find a phrase or a sentence required knowing the context. Chapter & verse numbering have a number of alignment issues with original language sentences. For example, Ephesians 1:3-14 & Colossians 1:9-20 are single sentences having many verse numbers. My Bible quoting style reflects original language texts while retaining spaces between words.
John 3:1-15 LEB (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>
Now there was a man of the Pharisees whose name was Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to him at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from אלהים God, for no one is able to perform these signs that you are performing unless אלהים God were with him.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of אלהים God.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is an old man? He is not able to enter into his mother’s womb for the second time and be born, can he?”
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born of water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘It is necessary for you to be born from above.’ The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and you do not understand these things? Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we testify about what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony! If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven — the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”
John 3:13 is in the middle of reply by Jesus to Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel.
Do you believe a teacher from אלהים God, who descended from Heaven would truly know about heavenly things ? and the rich man torment ?
@Searching June 16 Confirming that Jesus said that “Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”—Matthew 11:11. Again showing that no one was in heaven yet.
Context is Matthew 11:1-19 LEB (italicized words were added for smooth English) =>
And it happened that when Jesus had finished giving orders to his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and to preach in their towns. Now when John heard in prison the deeds of Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we look for another?”
And Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised, and the poor have good news announced to them. And whoever is not offended by me is blessed.”
Now as these were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in the houses of kings. But why did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and even more than a prophet! It is this man about whom it is written: ‘Behold, I am sending my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.’ Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen one greater than John the Baptist. But the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. But from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven is treated violently, and the violent claim it. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah, the one who is going to come. The one who has ears, let him hear!
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces who call out to one another, saying, ‘We played the flute for you and you did not dance; we sang a lament and you did not mourn.’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a man who is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”
Please help me understand @Searching assertion "that no one was in heaven yet." as those words do not appear in Matthew 11:1-19 nor John 3:1-15
@Searching June 16 Since no one was in heaven yet, neither was anyone named Lazarus, thus making it a fictitious story or parable.
Where were Enoch & Elijah taken centuries before Jesus spoke ?
Genesis 5:18-24 LEB =>
When Jared had lived one hundred and sixty-two years, he fathered Enoch. And after Jared had fathered Enoch, he lived eight hundred years, and fathered sons and daughters. And all the days of Jared were nine hundred and sixty-two years, and he died. When Enoch had lived sixty-five years, he fathered Methuselah. And Enoch walked with אלהים God after he fathered Methuselah three hundred years, and fathered sons and daughters. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. And Enoch walked with אלהים God, and he was no more, for אלהים God took him.
2 Kings 2:1-14 LEB =>
When יהוה Yahweh was about to take Elijah up in the storm to heaven, Elijah and Elisha went from Gilgal.
Elijah said to Elisha, “Please stay here, for יהוה Yahweh has sent me up to Bethel.”
Elisha said, “As יהוה Yahweh lives and as your soul lives, I will certainly not leave you!”
So they went down to Bethel. Then the sons of the prophets who were in Bethel came out to Elisha, and they said to him, “Do you know that יהוה Yahweh is going to take your master from you today?”
He said, “I also know; be quiet!”
Elijah said to him, “Elisha, please stay here because יהוה Yahweh has sent me to Jericho.”
And he said, “As יהוה Yahweh lives and as your soul lives, I will certainly not leave you!”
So they came to Jericho. Then the sons of the prophets who were in Jericho came near to Elisha, and they said to him, “Do you know that יהוה Yahweh is going to take your master from you today?”
He said, “I also know; be quiet!”
Then Elijah said to him, “Please stay here, because יהוה Yahweh has sent me to the Jordan.”
He said, “As יהוה Yahweh lives and as your soul lives, I will certainly not leave you!”
So the two of them went on. Then fifty men from the sons of the prophets went and stood opposite them at a distance while the two of them stood by the Jordan. Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up, and struck the water. It divided in two, and the two of them crossed over on dry land. After they crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I may do for you before I am taken away from you.”
Then Elisha said, “Please let there come to me a double portion of your spirit.”
He said, “What you ask is difficult. If you see me being taken from you, it will be so for you, but if not, it will not happen.”
Then they were walking, talking as they went. Suddenly a fiery chariot with horses of fire appeared and separated between the two of them. Elijah went up in the storm to the heavens while Elisha was watching and crying out, “My father, my father; the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!”
But he could not see him any longer, and he grasped his clothes and tore them in two pieces. Then he picked up Elijah’s cloak that had fallen off of him, and he returned and stood on the bank of the Jordan. He took Elijah’s cloak that had fallen from upon him and struck the water.
Then he said, “Where is יהוה Yahweh, the אלהים God of Elijah?” So he also struck the water, and it divided in two, and Elisha crossed over.
Do you believe Elijah & Elisha crossed the river Jordan on dry land ?
@Searching June 16 In fact if everything Jesus said was true no one is in heaven yet because of what he said in John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself". Seems obvious that since he has not returned yet ..well, you get the point.
John 14:1-14 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in אלהים God; believe also in me. In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places; but if not, I would have told you, because I am going away to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, so that where I am, you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.”
Thomas said to him, “יהוה Lord, we do not know where you are going. How are we able to know the way?”
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.”
Philip said to him, “יהוה Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Am I with you so long a time and you have not known me, Philip? The one who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from myself, but the Father residing in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in me, the works that I am doing he will do also, and he will do greater works* than these because I am going to the Father. And ⌊whatever⌋ you ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Do you believe in Jesus the same as believing in אלהים God ?
Is it possible for The Father and Jesus to be two voices in One unique אלהים God spirit ? (different than created beings having one voice)
Apologies for @Searching "you get the point" being puzzling to me (while we agree Jesus has not yet physically returned to earth so the Mount of Olives remains to be split: Zechariach 14:1-21 that also metions holy ones returning).
Keep Smiling 😊
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I don't see how this discussion with Nicodemus has anything to do with the rich man and Lazarus or that it matters when Jesus said that no one had yet gone to heaven. The fact is the story of the rich man and Lazarus had to be a fictitious story since Jesus said it had already happened and no one had gone to heaven yet. If no one had gone to heaven yet Lazarus could not have been there.
You need help to understand how no one had gone to heaven in John 3:13 and Matthew 11:11?
Read the words of Jesus and "think" about what he is saying. Jesus said in John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." Berean Literal Bible says "And no one has gone up into heaven except the One having come down out of heaven, the Son of Man." King James Bible says "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." Simply put, Jesus at that point was the only one who had been in heaven. Obviously, Lazarus could not have been in heaven since NO ONE had except Jesus. Is that hard for you to understand?
So in Matthew 11:11 Jesus said: "among those born of women (that means everyone that ever lived except Adam and Eve) there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. If there has never been anyone greater than John then if anyone had gone to heaven they could not be greater than John, but Jesus said even the least one in heaven is greater than John. I don't think it's that hard to understand. If you still can't understand it then I think we are waisting our time.
The point is, if no one had gone to heaven then the rich man and Lazarus is a fictitious story, a parable, which it obviously is.
I don't know why you would thought a comparison of Hebrew words when the New Testament was written in Greek. Makes no sense to me.
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Important is Holy God helping me appreciate inspired truth: e.g. the eight verses in Psalms 119 that begin with the Hebrew letter LEB (with Bold imperative & jussive) =>
Deal bountifully with your servant, that I may live and heed your word.
Uncover my eyes, that I may look at wonderful things from your law.
I am a sojourner on the earth; do not hide your commands from me.
My soul is crushed with longing for your ordinances at all times.
You rebuke the arrogant, the accursed, who stray from your commands.
⌊Remove from⌋ me scorn and contempt, for I have kept your testimonies.
Even though princes sit and speak against me, your servant meditates on your statutes.
Your testimonies are my delight, ⌊my counselors⌋.
A valuable lesson learned from Reading the Bible for All Its Worth: every word has context in a sentence. Every sentence has context in a paragraph. Every paragraph has context in a larger unit. Understanding original context is needed for learning Godly knowledge.
@Searching June 18 I don't know why you would thought a comparison of Hebrew words when the New Testament was written in Greek. Makes no sense to me.
We agree the New Testament was written in Koine Greek. Possibly the Gospel of Matthew was first written in Hebrew followed by translation into Koine Greek, the common merchant's language.
Jewish Scholars translated Hebrew & Aramaic Scriptures into the Greek Septuagint (LXX) a couple centuries before the conversation described in John 3:1-15. Logos Bible Study software has professional search capabilities, which were useful for searching translation of Hebrew & Aramaic into Greek: e.g. יהוה occurences (6,828) in the Hebrew Bible had been usually translated into LXX as κύριος kuriŏs Lord (92%) & sometimes as θεός thĕŏs God (4%). Also אלהים occurences (2,601) in the Hebrew Bible had been usually translated into LXX as masculine θεός thĕŏs God (87%) & sometimes as κύριος kuriŏs Lord (4%) & twice as feminine θεῖος thĕiŏs (goddess in Exodus 31:3 & Proverbs 2:17). My addition of two Hebrew words to English translation helps me see original Jewish audience understanding of those words in the New Testament.
@Searching June 18 You need help to understand how no one had gone to heaven in John 3:13 and Matthew 11:11?
Yes, please help me understand @Searching assertion "Jesus said that no one had yet gone to heaven."
@Searching June 18 Read the words of Jesus and "think" about what he is saying. Jesus said in John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." Berean Literal Bible says "And no one has gone up into heaven except the One having come down out of heaven, the Son of Man." King James Bible says "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." Simply put, Jesus at that point was the only one who had been in heaven. Obviously, Lazarus could not have been in heaven since NO ONE had except Jesus. Is that hard for you to understand?
Do you believe your own advice ? What words of Jewish Rabbi Jesus surround the John 3:13 sentence ?
The three Bible translations of the sentence numbered John 3:13 do NOT have the name Jesus. What is needed to validate John 3:13 being words said by Jesus ?
Also @Searching June 16 assertion "Jesus said that no one had yet gone to heaven." included the word "yet" that is NOT in the John 3:13 sentence, yet @Searching only quoted the first phrase of the sentence (as though the phrase was a complete thought in itself).
John 3:13 SBLGNT => καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
καὶ = and, even, also : conjunction
οὐδεὶς = no one : adjective, nominative, singular, masculine (singular subject of verb ἀναβέβηκεν)
ἀναβέβηκεν = he went up, he has ascended : verb, perfect, active, indicative, 3rd person, singular
- perfect verb tense expresses primary completed kind of action with ongoing result, which has secondary aspect of past time.
εἰς = into : preposition (accusative case with verb expressing motion)
τὸν = the : article, accusative, singular, masculine (case, number, gender agrees with noun οὐρανὸν)
οὐρανὸν = heaven : noun, accusative, singular, masculine
εἰ = if : conjunction
μὴ = not : adverb, negative OR particle, negative
ὁ = the : article, nominative, singular, masculine (case, number, gender agrees with participle καταβάς)
ἐκ = from : preposition
τοῦ = the : article, genitive, singular, masculine (case, number, gender agrees with noun οὐρανοῦ)
οὐρανοῦ = heaven : noun, genitive, singular, masculine
καταβάς = he went down, he descended : verb, aorist, active, participle, singular, nominative, masculine
- aorist verb tense expresses action happened (with secondary aspect of past time) & participle being a verbal noun
,
ὁ = the : article, nominative, singular, masculine (case, number, gender agrees with noun υἱὸς & participle καταβάς))
υἱὸς = son : noun, nominative, singular, masculine
τοῦ = of/from the :article, genitive, singular, masculine (case, number, gender agrees with noun ἀνθρώπου)
ἀνθρώπου = of/from man : noun, genitive, singular, masculine
John 3:13 literal => Also no one ascended into the heaven if not the from the heaven descended, the son of man.
- Doing my own literal translation helps me consider contextual word meanings with Greek grammatical insights
What Jewish cultural understanding was unstated in the answer spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus to Jewish Rabbi Nicodemus, teacher of Israel ?
Remember the larger conversation context John 3:1-15 LEB (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>
Now there was a man of the Pharisees whose name was Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to him at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from אלהים God, for no one is able to perform these signs that you are performing unless אלהים God were with him.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of אלהים God.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is an old man? He is not able to enter into his mother’s womb for the second time and be born, can he?”
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born of water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘It is necessary for you to be born from above.’ The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and you do not understand these things? Truly, truly I say to you, we speak what we know, and we testify about what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony! If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven — the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”
Both Jesus & Nicodemus had the Jewish stories of Enoch & Elijah memorized: God took them to heaven (so two ascended to heaven centuries before Jewish Rabbi conversation in John 3:1-15). Hence, what did the Jewish Rabbi Nicodemus understand "no one" to be expressing ?
Do you believe the words of Jesus: “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born of water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of אלהים God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘It is necessary for you to be born from above.’ The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” ?
@Searching June 16 So in Matthew 11:11 Jesus said: "among those born of women (that means everyone that ever lived except Adam and Eve) there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. If there has never been anyone greater than John then if anyone had gone to heaven they could not be greater than John, but Jesus said even the least one in heaven is greater than John. I don't think it's that hard to understand. If you still can't understand it then I think we are waisting our time.
Like the John 3:13 sentence, the Matthew 11:11 sentence does NOT have the name Jesus. What is needed to validate Matthew 11:11 being words said by Jesus ?
Matthew 11:11 SBLGNT => ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, οὐκ ἐγήγερται ἐν γεννητοῖς γυναικῶν μείζων Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ· ὁ δὲ μικρότερος ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν μείζων αὐτοῦ ἐστιν.
Matthew 11:11 Literal => amen I say * to you, not raised up in birth of/from woman greater John the Baptist: the but least in the kingdom of/from the heaven greater he be *.
- * Present verb tense expresses continous action (with secondary aspect of present time)
To me, the Koine Greek verb tenses express the least one currently being in heaven is greater than John the Baptist. If @Searching @Searching June 18 "no one had gone to heaven" assertion was correct, then the greater in heaven Koine Greek verb tense should have been future action (with secondary aspect of future time) instead of present tense continous action (with secondary aspect of present time). To me, the words spoken by Jesus in Matthew 11:11 simply disagree with @Searching June 18 "no one had gone to heaven" assertion.
@Searching June 18 The point is, if no one had gone to heaven then the rich man and Lazarus is a fictitious story, a parable, which it obviously is.
To me, the if point is invalid so @Searching ficticious story conclusion is fiction to me.
Do You Believe the words spoken by Jesus are truthful ?
Do you Believe in Jesus the same as Believing in אלהים God ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 21 Important is Holy God helping me appreciate inspired truth: e.g. the eight verses in Psalms 119 that begin with the Hebrew letter LEB (with Bold imperative & jussive) =>
My apologies for my human typographical oops: LEB is NOT a letter in the Hebrew alphabet.
Important is Holy God helping me appreciate inspired truth: e.g. the eight verses in Psalms 119 that begin with the Hebrew letter ג (Gimel) (with Bold imperative & jussive) =>
Deal bountifully with your servant, that I may live and heed your word.
Uncover my eyes, that I may look at wonderful things from your law.
I am a sojourner on the earth; do not hide your commands from me.
My soul is crushed with longing for your ordinances at all times.
You rebuke the arrogant, the accursed, who stray from your commands.
⌊Remove from⌋ me scorn and contempt, for I have kept your testimonies.
Even though princes sit and speak against me, your servant meditates on your statutes.
Your testimonies are my delight, ⌊my counselors⌋.
A valuable lesson learned from Reading the Bible for All Its Worth: every word has context in a sentence. Every sentence has context in a paragraph. Every paragraph has context in a larger unit. Understanding original context is needed for learning Godly knowledge.
Hebrew text from 1008 AD without vowel points shows Hebrew letter illiteration in Psalms 119:17-24 =>
17 גמל על-עבדך אחיה ואשמרה דברך
18 גל-עיני ואביטה נפלאות מתורתך
19 גר אנכי בארץ אל-תסתר ממני מצותיך
20 גרסה נפשי לתאבה אל-משפטיך בכל-עת
21 גערת זדים ארורים השגים ממצותיך
22 גל מעלי חרפה ובוז כי עדתיך נצרתי
23 גם ישבו שרים בי נדברו עבדך ישיח בחקיך
24 גם-עדתיך שעשעי אנשי עצתי
Hebrew reads from right to left. In contrast, English & Greek read from left to right.
The Hebrew alphabet has 22 letters. Psalm 119 has 176 verses, which is 8 verses per letter: 22 * 8 = 176 verses. The Book of Lamentations has 22 verses in chapters 1, 2, 4, & 5 while chapter 3 has 66 verses. Easy to see Lamentations letter illiteration in Hebrew.
Keep Smiling 😊
