Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.
Comments
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@Dave_L said:
The bible speaks of Christ's single return at the end of the world. You say he returns more than once.The Bible speaks about "the end of the Äon {age}" ... not about the end of the world (cosmos/universe/planet earth)
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@Dave_L said:
“But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:23–26)
How does that say only one return?
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Well it says he must reign (happening now since his resurrection) until he defeats death (at the resurrection). So how does he come before that time? Granted, the kingdom came with his first advent and took on power at Pentecost, but where does his personal return happen in reverse of how he ascended?
“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11)
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@Wolfgang said:
The Bible speaks about "the end of the Äon {age}" ... not about the end of the world (cosmos/universe/planet earth)
Either way, the universe explodes in fire and the new heavens and earth begin.
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@Dave_L said:
Well it says he must reign (happening now since his resurrection) until he defeats death (at the resurrection). So how does he come before that time? Granted, the kingdom came with his first advent and took on power at Pentecost, but where does his personal return happen in reverse of how he ascended?“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11)
I think your timeline is a bit off there...
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There is only one Day of the Lord, not days of the Lord. And to say days of the Lord is adding to the book of Revelation.
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@Dave_L said:
There is only one Day of the Lord, not days of the Lord. And to say days of the Lord is adding to the book of Revelation.
Now your definitions are off.
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You are adding to Revelation.
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No I am not Dave. You add to Scripture all the time.
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When you say Christ has more than one return you add to Revelation.
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Consider these points on the "day of the Lord:
"The theme of vengeance is often involved in such expressions as "the day of the LORD." One notices that that day was conceived as the day of deliverance for the remnant and the day of judgment for the enemies of the covenant people. From the very beginning, the religion of Israel had a strong orientation for the future although that future's otherworldly nature was not at first clearly perceived.
- It is like wise to be noted that the terminology surrounding the expression "the day of the LORD" involves words of war.
- Thus, in Ezek 13:5, Jer 46:10, and Zeph 1:16, the day of the Lord is directly associated with the concept of war fare. While the idea of war is present, there are also in evidence other important dimensions which do not appear to be associated with war at all. These have an important bearing on the total concept of the day of the Lord and need to be fleshed out.
- In all cases, the day of Yahweh is a day in which he comes to the guilty or hostile forces. Often God comes in the setting of a dispute to punish the guilty party and vindicate the innocent.
- In these settings, judgment and punishment are viewed as one divine act. It is to be observed that the day of Yahweh has a double character— judgment and punishment, on the one hand, and blessing and bliss, on the other.
- This double character of Yahweh's day of vengeance is based on the covenant, "because according to military clauses in the ancient treaties we know that the main partner promises protection against enemies." See source below. CM
SOURCES:
-- F. C. Fensham, "A Possible Origin of the Concept of the Day of the Lord,” Biblical Essays (1966):92.
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@Dave_L said:
When you say Christ has more than one return you add to Revelation.
No I am saying you redefine things and confuse certain events with others and lump some events together and also take passages out of their proper context.
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@reformed said:
No I am saying you redefine things and confuse certain events with others and lump some events together and also take passages out of their proper context.
Read Paul and find a pre-trib rapture. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
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@Dave_L said:
Read Paul and find a pre-trib rapture. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)
Dave,
Sorry, wrong event. The church will go through its trials and then, God will redeem and remove the righteous dead and living from the earth. CM -
@C_M_ said:
Dave,
Sorry, wrong event. The church will go through its trials and then, God will redeem and remove the righteous dead and living from the earth. CMHow does that differ from what Paul says? I was challenging Reformed to find a pre-trib rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17. Hint it is not in the bible- period.
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@Dave_L said:
How does that differ from what Paul says? I was challenging Reformed to find a pre-trib rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17. Hint it is not in the bible- period.
Ok, no pre-Trib Rapture. Stay with the truth. CM
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@Dave_L said:
How does that differ from what Paul says? I was challenging Reformed to find a pre-trib rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17. Hint it is not in the bible- period.
Wait, all along you have been saying there is no rapture at all. Waffle waffle waffle.
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@Dave_L the verse you gave actually points to a pre-trib rapture. The Bible doesn't say "Trinity" do you believe in a Trinity?
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The trinity is clearly revealed in scripture unless a person is spiritually blind. The name trinity identifies the scriptural concept. But the tribulation related rapture doctrines do not exist anywhere in scripture. They are a theory with no direct scriptural support.
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@GaoLu said:
Wait, all along you have been saying there is no rapture at all. Waffle waffle waffle.
This is not true. The only mention of a rapture happens after the resurrection on the last day as Paul says. I've said this all along.
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Ohhh. My apologies! Guess I missed it. Do you believe it?
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@C_M_ said:
A quick response to your inquiry, "these last days", is an equivalent of the expression "in our time." The Bible writers sometimes speak of events associated with the FIRST ADVENT OF CHRIST as occurring in the "last days":
- Acts 2:17 -- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (KJV).
- Heb 9:26 -- “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” (KJV).
- 1 Peter 1:5 -- “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (KJV).
In addition, 1 Peter 1:20 -- “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you” (KJV).
- Textual evidence favors the literal rendering "these last times". See also Joel 2:28; Rom. 13:11 (KJV).
I HOPE THIS HELPS. CM
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More on the Last Days # 2 CM
I. In the New Testament, the usage of the term “last days” does generally elicit visions of apocalyptic catastrophe—doom, judgment, fire, and suffering—the end of the world, but they actually qualify an epoch (era, period, or time), not just an event.
This process begins with the incarnation (Heb 1:2; cf. 2 Clem. 14:2) and compares with the “fullness of time” in Gal 4:4. It's believed that the book of Revelation is essentially eschatological (end or "last things" events) [except chaps. 1-3], "the whole duration of the actual world, no matter how long it might be, since the incarnation".
That the present is the last time is evidenced in the events of the Pentecost (Acts 2:17ff.) and by the coming of scoffers, antichrist, etc. (2 Tim 3:1; Jas 5:3; 2 Pet 3:3; Jude 17- 18; 1 John 2:18; cf. Did 16:3; Barn. 4:9; 12:9; 16:5).
For the expression “the end of the age(s),” see 1 Cor 10:11; Heb 9:26; 1 Pet 1:20. Kittel noted that the “last days” ends in the New Testament with the last day:
-- “Which brings with it the last plagues (Rev 15:1; 21:9).
-- The overcoming of the ἔσχατος ἐχθρός (1 Cor 15:26).
-- Proclaimed by the ἐσχάτη σάλπιγξ (1 Cor 15:52).
-- The resurrection of the dead, judgment and salvation (John 6:39 f., 44, 54; 11:24; 12:48: ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ; 1 Pet 1:5: ἐν καιρῷ ἐσχάτῳ)” (“ἔσχατος,” TDNT, 2:697).Thus, the general sense of living in the last days for Christians at the end of the first century is quite predictable. The expression ἀρχὴ ὠδίνων refers to a woman who must endure pain for a child to be born and is applied to the pain and suffering that precedes the coming of the Messiah in Mark 13:19/Matt 24:21 and Rev 12:1-6.
II. For OT references for “the last days,” see LXX Gen 49:1; Num 24:14; Isa 2:2; Jer 23:20; Dan 10:14; Gk. L.A.E. 13:2; T. Jud. 18:1; T. Zeb. 8:2; 9:5; T. Dan 5:4; T. Jos. 19:10. For an overview on the image of “birth-pains”.
III. In Judaism, -- a woman in great travail because of childbirth characterizes the “last days” (1QH 3:7-10).
-- 1 Enoch 62:4, -- the expression refers to birth pangs in the face of the final judgment.
-- 2 Esd 4:42-- uses the metaphor for the new birth of resurrection.Be informed from the Word. CM
SOURCES:
-- G. Kittel, “ἔσχατος,” Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, eds. Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, trans. Geoffrey Bromiley (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964-1976), 2:697-698.
--- see G. Bertram, “ὠδίν, ὠδίνω,” Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, eds. Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, trans. Geoffrey Bromiley (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1964-1976), 9:667-674.
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Who are the other American "top dogs" today? CM
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@C_M_ said:
Who are the other American "top dogs" today? CMI'm not aware of what the TV preachers are saying. But years ago the rapturists had quite a presence there. But you can rest assured that any pre-tribber has zero scripture to base their claims on. Not only do direct quotes from scripture not exist, they removed themselves from the bible entirely by inserting a hypothetical gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks. They removed the 70th week from the rest of scripture and built a hypothesis on it alone.
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@Dave_L said:
"... any pre-tribber has zero scripture to base their claims on. Not only do direct quotes from scripture not exist, they removed themselves from the bible entirely by inserting a hypothetical gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks. They removed the 70th week from the rest of scripture and built a hypothesis on it alone.
Dave,
To the chagrin of many, you're right on both counts. I hope to get a better understanding of this "hypothetical gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks" later. For now one needs to understand the backdrop to such teachings:Pretribulationists -- believe the Rapture takes place before the seven-year tribulation on earth. They are premillennialists. Of the two branches (historicism and futurism), they represent the Futurist position. This wing believes that none of the End Times prophecies will be fulfilled until a short period before the Parousia (coming of Christ).
A premillennial-Futurist, pretribulational frame of reference. This view has received much attention lately and has become the popular view in America in the mid-to-late twentieth century, carrying over into the twenty-first century. They still believe there will be the Rapture of the Church.
Pretribulationists cannot provide any strong biblical evidence for their secret-rapture idea. Rather, this idea comes by inference from texts relating to deliverance from tribulation, as well as, from a peculiar interpretation of such Bible passages as "one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt 24: 40, 41).
- A particular variety of futurism known as pretribulationism originated early in the nineteenth century through the work of John Nelson Darby and various of his colleagues in the Plymouth Brethren movement in the British Isles.
- Followers of the Darbyian pretribulationism are also often referred to as dispensationalists, because of their belief that earth's history may be divided up into a number of eras or dispensations wherein God has used different means in dealing with His people and in testing them with respect to obedience. In the words of one of their spokesmen, William Trotter, these so-called dispensations:
"have run, are running, and have yet to run their course, so widely different in their character, that what is simple obedience and for the glory of God in one dispensation, may be entirely foreign to the character of another"... that what God sanctions under one dispensation, may be so diverse from the spirit and character of another, as to be the subject of rebuke to those who desire to imitate it".
- This view is also premillennialist, but inserts an additional secret second coming of Christ seven years prior to Christ's open and visible second advent.
- The term pre-tribulationism stems from the belief that at this secret second coming, all true Christians are raptured and taken to heaven so as to escape the great tribulation that is to take place during the closing scenes of earth's history. The rapture aspect of the doctrine is popularly known as the secret rapture.
- Also, a frequent practice of many holding this viewpoint utilizes Revelation 4:1, where John is bidden to "Come up hither," as an indication of the so-called secret rapture of the church! If it were not so serious, it would be laughable.
Among some premillennialists of the early nineteenth century, a futuristic outlook emerged. It was similar to that of the Jesuit scholar Ribera, who fostered such a concept during the late sixteenth century. The question is who is the Jesuit scholar Francisco Ribera? Dig with me in the treasure trove of religious history.
Dave, please don't take my sharing as an attack on anyone. I'm just turning pages and highlighting the contents of history. Dave, does this add to your understanding? MORE LATER ON THE ROOTS OF pretribulationism. CM
SOURCE:
-- William Trotter. Plain Papers on Prophetic and Other Subjects, pp. 401-402.
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@Dave_L said:
I'm not aware of what the TV preachers are saying. But years ago the rapturists had quite a presence there. But you can rest assured that any pre-tribber has zero scripture to base their claims on. Not only do direct quotes from scripture not exist, they removed themselves from the bible entirely by inserting a hypothetical gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks. They removed the 70th week from the rest of scripture and built a hypothesis on it alone.Funny enough, their gap between those weeks in Daniel has already been just about 2 millennia (=> double as long as the supposed millennium they are expecting as a rather long period in comparison to the supposedly "soon/at hand/ etc" statements found in Scripture to describe the time between Christ's ascension and his return/coming.
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Thanks WS & CM. I've been looking into the importance of the artificial gap Dispensationalists insert between Daniel's 69th and 70th. Because this not only breaks the continuity, it also removes the verse from the bible. And the detached verse forms the backbone of their entire hypothesis. But they surround it with a smoke screen of scriptures they import in piecemeal fashion to support their claims. This one passage could be the thread that unravels their entire scheme.
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@Wolfgang said:
Funny enough, their gap between those weeks in Daniel has already been just about 2 millennia (=> double as long as the supposed millennium they are expecting as a rather long period in comparison to the supposedly "soon/at hand/ etc" statements found in Scripture to describe the time between Christ's ascension and his return/coming.Regardless, a deviation from Scripture is a deviation. If something is off at the beginning, it would be all the more, as it or time moves on. Moot point? CM
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@Dave_L said:
I'm not aware of what the TV preachers are saying. But years ago the rapturists had quite a presence there. But you can rest assured that any pre-tribber has zero scripture to base their claims on. Not only do direct quotes from scripture not exist, they removed themselves from the bible entirely by inserting a hypothetical gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks. They removed the 70th week from the rest of scripture and built a hypothesis on it alone.
Pre-Trib, such as myself, have plenty of Scripture. Otherwise we wouldn't be Pre-Trib.
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@reformed said:
Pre-Trib, such as myself, have plenty of Scripture. Otherwise we wouldn't be Pre-Trib.
This may be true, but are they in harmony with the Daniel prophecy? Do share your texts and explain as you teach or believe them. Dave and I would like to know how you reach your conclusion. Thanks. CM
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