Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists.

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.
The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."
Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack.

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these? If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

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Comments

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    You write a lot built on false premises. What the Bible says clearly is that no man knows the day nor the hour. So, Walvoord is right. Sadly, you take his truth and twist it to your own personal error because it fits the tiny little theological box into which you are perpetually attempting to stuff God and His words. But you have to keep going forever, because God always escapes from your box.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    Fox News:

    Either Planet X Will Kill Us All on April 23rd or the Rapture Can Happen Any Time, Take Your Pick--

    by Tom McKayToday 12:20 am

    Is The Rapture finally here? One Christian numerologist says a biblical sign strongly suggests it.

    Silly fringe theories about Planet X—an imagined planet typically named Nibiru that is on course to hit or pass by Earth with disastrous consequences—are the kind of thing normally relegated to vanity press-published books or those tabloids you browse in the supermarket checkout aisle. On Wednesday, they made it into Fox News, with the added caveat that maybe some other Biblical catastrophe could surprise us instead.

    The Planet X theory first emerged in 1995 and is usually evidenced by tortured interpretations of religious texts, with vague suppositions that NASA either hasn’t detected this ominous celestial body or is actively covering up its existence to prevent widespread panic. In an article filed to Fox’s website on Wednesday, this time the prophesied doomsday comes courtesy of an article in British rag the Daily Express citing numerologist David Meade’s interpretation of the Bible’s Revelation 12:1-2:

    • The passage reads: “And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of 12 stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.”

    In the passage, the woman is represented as Virgo. According to Meade, the alignment represents “the Lion of the tribe of Judah,” marking the Rapture, the belief that Christ will bring the faithful into paradise prior to a period of tribulation on earth that precedes the end of time.

    (Incredibly, while the Express article introduces Meade as a conspiracy theorist, the Fox News one does not.)

    Meade is apparently telling every gullible soul with the time to listen that Planet X will appear above the Earth on April 23rd, 2018. This will trigger the Rapture because the planet’s massive gravitational forces will cause volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis, and all that other bad stuff you see in Roland Emmerich movies.


    This is an old article and unfulfilled events. Terms must be defined to address the many moving parts. Questions must be asked:

    1. What is the Rapture?
    2. Is the Rapture biblical?
    3. Does Revelation 12:1-2, signals or endorses the "Rapture?"
    4. Is this a scare tactic to force people to have a come to Jesus Moments?"
    5. Where did such teaching originated?
    6. Who or what organizations are proponents of such teachings?

    These and other questions will debunk David Meade’s conspiracy theorist but reaffirm the biblical truth of the "endtime" and the return of Christ. Prophecy can and should be understood without being entangled with "conspiracy theorist" of any stripes. What say ye? Please, biblical answers are needed. We don't need another theory to replace a "conspiracy theorists'."

    The road to truth is through the Bible. CM

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    1-2 already answered above.
    3 Probably not.
    4. Scare tactic? Highly doubtful.
    5. What teaching? Rapture? If so, then already answered above.
    6. Christians. No one else at all.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @Dave_L said:
    Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). He agrees with G. E. Ladd saying;

    "Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

    "Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

    The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.

    Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.
    The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.

    It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."
    Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says the same:

    "One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

    Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack.

    So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves in the face of the failed prophecies surrounding them, why do millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims put forth by these? If you believe in the pre-trib rapture, how do you support it with scripture when these cannot?

    Just curious, what are the failed prophecies you are speaking of?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    Any you can think of. A biggie was the 40 years (1 generation) after 1948 when Jesus was supposed to return in 88. This actually damaged the faith of many who didn't plan a life based on this. There is or at least was a Twitter support group #Rapture anxiety to help them cope.

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @Dave_L said:
    Any you can think of. A biggie was the 40 years (1 generation) after 1948 when Jesus was supposed to return in 88. This actually damaged the faith of many who didn't plan a life based on this. There is or at least was a Twitter support group #Rapture anxiety to help them cope.

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    That has nothing to do with the Rapture. That is individual sects of people who are preaching something unbiblical. That doesn't support your claim that there is no rapture/tribulation/Millenium etc at all.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260

    @Dave_L said:
    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    Indeed ...

    Another problem, also due to this wrong concept, is that they place what already happened "soon" and "in this generation" in the 1st century AD into a yet unknown future even now that almost 2 millenniums have already passed.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367
    edited July 30

    First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. “Where is the promise of His coming? they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately overlook...

    Post edited by GaoLu on
  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580
    edited July 31

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Post edited by C_M_ on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260

    @GaoLu said:
    First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. “Where is the promise of His coming? they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately overlook...

    It would be not only helpful but of utmost importance for a correct understanding of Scripture passages to note when in accordance with Scripture "the last days" were ... and of what they were the last days (cp for example Heb 1:1-2; Acts 2:17)

    Unfortunately, it seems that most are willingly ignorant of what Scripture reveals and how it defines "the last days" ... and if they are not just ignorant of it, they perhaps deliberately overlook it in order to maintain their own definitions and ideas about what they deem to be "the last days".

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367
    edited July 31

    @Wolfgang said:

    @GaoLu said:
    First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. “Where is the promise of His coming? they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately overlook...

    It would be not only helpful but of utmost importance for a correct understanding of Scripture passages to note when in accordance with Scripture "the last days" were ... and of what they were the last days (cp for example Heb 1:1-2; Acts 2:17)

    Wouldn't we all like to know. But the Bible says that no man knows, so claiming a time isn't very helpful. That would be a sort of "Bill-fact." I am sure Bill has a link, though, for proof.

    No doubt there are more than one "last days" as you note above. But we are talking about the rapture one on this section of the thread.

    Unfortunately, it seems that most are willingly ignorant of what Scripture reveals and how it defines "the last days" ... and if they are not just ignorant of it, they perhaps deliberately overlook it in order to maintain their own definitions and ideas about what they deem to be "the last days".

    Could well be. Many people have made false claims. No doubt, more will. Right here on these forums.

    Post edited by GaoLu on
  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Any you can think of. A biggie was the 40 years (1 generation) after 1948 when Jesus was supposed to return in 88. This actually damaged the faith of many who didn't plan a life based on this. There is or at least was a Twitter support group #Rapture anxiety to help them cope.

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    That has nothing to do with the Rapture. That is individual sects of people who are preaching something unbiblical. That doesn't support your claim that there is no rapture/tribulation/Millenium etc at all.

    The gist of my article is that no scripture exists to support any of the rapture theories. The only rapture in the NT is on earth's last day AFTER the resurrection.

    “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17)

    Jesus says this happens on the last day. “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:39)

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    Sounds like a rapture theory to me. You make a case for the rapture, give a Scripture and then say none of it exists. Dave's theology demonstrated.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @GaoLu said:
    Sounds like a rapture theory to me. You make a case for the rapture, give a Scripture and then say none of it exists. Dave's theology demonstrated.

    This is the ONLY mention of a Rapture in scripture. And it happens on the last day AFTER the resurrection.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367
    edited July 31

    Even if it is the ONLY reference (which I doubt), isn't one about enough? How many would it take to convince you? And for sure, a resurrection will precede a rapture. That is the whole idea of the thing.

    Post edited by GaoLu on
  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    The thing is, these people are creating doctrines out of thin air with zero scriptural support.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260

    @GaoLu said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    It would be not only helpful but of utmost importance for a correct understanding of Scripture passages to note when in accordance with Scripture "the last days" were ... and of what they were the last days (cp for example Heb 1:1-2; Acts 2:17)

    Wouldn't we all like to know.

    The above mentioned scriptures tell you so you can know ... the last days spoken of in Scripture were approx 2000 years ago ...

    But the Bible says that no man knows, so claiming a time isn't very helpful.

    Where does the Bible say that no man knows when "the last days" were? I even provided 2 scripture references that clearly indicate a time frame as to when "the last days" period of time was.

    Are you perhaps mixing up something here? I know that Jesus in reference to the time of his coming in judgment at the end of the last days / the end of the age mentioned that no man knew "day and hour", but in the very same context Jesus used the illustration of a pregnant woman not knowing the exact day and time ("day or hour") when the time for the birth of her baby will come ... indicating rather plainly and clearly that the general time frame was known or do you think a woman doesn't know how long a pregnancy lasts?? Jesus provided on several occasions the general time frame for his coming and the end of the age => for example, when he mentioned it would happen while some of his audience were still alive, it would happen toward the end of his generation (the generation of his contemporaries), etc ...

    No doubt there are more than one "last days" as you note above. But we are talking about the rapture one on this section of the thread.

    Perhaps you can briefly tell me a listing of the "more than one 'last days' " ? Which other "last days" except for those last days of the end of the age, before the coming of the Lord, when the resurrection from the dead occurred, etc. do you have in mind??

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260

    @Dave_L said:
    The gist of my article is that no scripture exists to support any of the rapture theories. The only rapture in the NT is on earth's last day AFTER the resurrection.

    ?? where does it say anything about "earth's last day(s)" ???

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    @Dave_L said:
    The thing is, these people are creating doctrines out of thin air with zero scriptural support.

    You, your very own self provided Scriptural support--now you say there is none. Make up your mind.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @Wolfgang said:
    It would be not only helpful but of utmost importance for a correct understanding of Scripture passages to note when in accordance with Scripture "the last days" were ... and of what they were the last days (cp for example Heb 1:1-2; Acts 2:17)

    Unfortunately, it seems that most are willingly ignorant of what Scripture reveals and how it defines "the last days" ... and if they are not just ignorant of it, they perhaps deliberately overlook it in order to maintain their own definitions and ideas about what they deem to be "the last days".

    A quick response to your inquiry, "these last days", is an equivalent of the expression "in our time." The Bible writers sometimes speak of events associated with the FIRST ADVENT OF CHRIST as occurring in the "last days":

    • Acts 2:17 -- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (KJV).
    • Heb 9:26 -- “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” (KJV).
    • 1 Peter 1:5 -- “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (KJV).

    In addition, 1 Peter 1:20 -- “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you” (KJV).

    • Textual evidence favors the literal rendering "these last times". See also Joel 2:28; Rom. 13:11 (KJV).

    I HOPE THIS HELPS. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

    You are lumping in a bunch of people with a FEW who claim to know (falsely) when the rapture happend. You can't do that Dave. That's just ignorant.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174
    edited August 1

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

    You are lumping in a bunch of people with a FEW who claim to know (falsely) when the rapture happend. You can't do that Dave. That's just ignorant.

    If the rapture happens 7 years before Christ returns, then they will share knowledge with the Father that only he is supposed to know.

    Post edited by Dave_L on
  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

    You are lumping in a bunch of people with a FEW who claim to know (falsely) when the rapture happend. You can't do that Dave. That's just ignorant.

    If the rapture happens 7 years before Christ returns, then they will share knowledge with the Father that only he is supposed to know.

    No they won't. The rapture is the return.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

    You are lumping in a bunch of people with a FEW who claim to know (falsely) when the rapture happend. You can't do that Dave. That's just ignorant.

    If the rapture happens 7 years before Christ returns, then they will share knowledge with the Father that only he is supposed to know.

    No they won't. The rapture is the return.

    When Christ returns he restores Israel. The rapture does not do this.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

    You are lumping in a bunch of people with a FEW who claim to know (falsely) when the rapture happend. You can't do that Dave. That's just ignorant.

    If the rapture happens 7 years before Christ returns, then they will share knowledge with the Father that only he is supposed to know.

    No they won't. The rapture is the return.

    When Christ returns he restores Israel. The rapture does not do this.

    ?????

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

    You are lumping in a bunch of people with a FEW who claim to know (falsely) when the rapture happend. You can't do that Dave. That's just ignorant.

    If the rapture happens 7 years before Christ returns, then they will share knowledge with the Father that only he is supposed to know.

    No they won't. The rapture is the return.

    When Christ returns he restores Israel. The rapture does not do this.

    ?????

    The bible speaks of Christ's single return at the end of the world. You say he returns more than once.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

    You are lumping in a bunch of people with a FEW who claim to know (falsely) when the rapture happend. You can't do that Dave. That's just ignorant.

    If the rapture happens 7 years before Christ returns, then they will share knowledge with the Father that only he is supposed to know.

    No they won't. The rapture is the return.

    When Christ returns he restores Israel. The rapture does not do this.

    ?????

    The bible speaks of Christ's single return at the end of the world. You say he returns more than once.

    Where does it say it is one single return?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    But all of their prophecies are bogus based on a physical kingdom concept.

    More recently, Christian radio broadcaster Harold Camping announced that his reading of Daniel and Revelation (specifically Daniel 12:9 and Revelation 22:10) indicated that **May 21, 2011, would be the day of the Rapture**.

    According to premillennial dispensationalist belief, the Rapture, when true Christians will be “caught up” (see 1 Thess. 4:17) and taken to Heaven, will be the first sign that the Second Coming has begun. When May 21, 2011, passed without incident Camping reinterpreted his prophecy and has announced that the Second Coming would begin on October 21, 2011. These are but a handful of current examples and students of contemporary apocalypticism have a wealth of sources from which to choose.

    Dave, add these to your collection of failed rapture calls. CM

    Sources For Further Reading:

    -- Frykholm, Amy. Rapture Culture: Left Behind in Evangelical America. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. 2004. 363-372.
    -- McGinn, Bernard, Collins, John J., and Stein, Stephen J., eds. The Encyclopedia of Apocalypticism. New York, NY: Continuum Press. 2000.
    -- Boyer, Paul.When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. 1992.

    Failed Rapture calls from the crazy few do not mean the Rapture isn't sound theology. The Bible clearly says nobody knows the day or time. So people like Harold Camping should be ignored. They do not represent the whole (or even the mainstream) of people who adhere to rapture theology.

    Nobody knows the day or time but the Rapturists and the Father. It's 7 years after the tribulation, or 3 1/2 years if you are mid trib. Or just before the resurrection followed by another rapture just after it.

    You are lumping in a bunch of people with a FEW who claim to know (falsely) when the rapture happend. You can't do that Dave. That's just ignorant.

    If the rapture happens 7 years before Christ returns, then they will share knowledge with the Father that only he is supposed to know.

    No they won't. The rapture is the return.

    When Christ returns he restores Israel. The rapture does not do this.

    ?????

    The bible speaks of Christ's single return at the end of the world. You say he returns more than once.

    Where does it say it is one single return?

    “But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:23–26)

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