Heaven: Is it A Real Place, A State of Being or Time?
CD Users,
I am mostly concern about what the Bible teaches on the subject of Heaven, first, over the various theories from theologians. When we mine the Bible for truth, all other conjectures and theories will be laid bare as heresies or error.
- Is heaven a real place? If so, where is it and who dwells there?
- Is heaven the realm where God dwells? How many heavens are there? Are there one, two, three, or more?
- When the Bible writers use the word "heaven" do they do so metaphorically? If so, what hope is there for the Christian believer?
- For a roundness of understanding, how is "Heaven" defined and/or believed in the intertestamental and rabbinic literature?
What says ye, from your earthly perch, looking heavenwardly? CM
Comments
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Real place. We don't know where it is. God, his angels, and those who die saved in Christ and those who are taken in the last day in Christ live there.
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The following is taken verbatim from Easton’s Bible dictionary:
HEAVEN—(1.) Definitions. The phrase “heaven and earth” is used to indicate the whole universe (Gen. 1:1; Jer. 23:24; Acts 17:24). According to the Jewish notion there were three heavens,
(a) The firmament, as “fowls of the heaven” (Gen. 2:19; 7:3, 23; Ps. 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lam. 4:19), etc.
(b) The starry heavens (Deut. 17:3; Jer. 8:2; Matt. 24:29).
(c) “The heaven of heavens,” or “the third heaven” (Deut. 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Ps. 115:16; 148:4; 2 Cor. 12:2).(2.) Meaning of words in the original,
(a) The usual Hebrew word for “heavens” is shamayim, a plural form meaning “heights,” “elevations” (Gen. 1:1; 2:1).
(b) The Hebrew word marom is also used (Ps. 68:18; 93:4; 102:19, etc.) as equivalent to shamayim, “high places,” “heights.”
(c) Heb. galgal, literally a “wheel,” is rendered “heaven” in Ps. 77:18 (R.V., “whirlwind”).
(d) Heb. shahak, rendered “sky” (Deut. 33:26; Job 37:18; Ps. 18:11), plural “clouds” (Job 35:5; 36:28; Ps. 68:34, marg. “heavens”), means probably the firmament.
(e) Heb. rakia is closely connected with (d), and is rendered “firmamentum” in the Vulgate, whence our “firmament” (Gen. 1:6; Deut. 33:26, etc.), regarded as a solid expanse.(3.) Metaphorical meaning of term. Isa. 14:13, 14; “doors of heaven” (Ps. 78:23); heaven “shut” (1 Kings 8:35); “opened” (Ezek. 1:1). (See 1 Chr. 21:16.)
(4.) Spiritual meaning. The place of the everlasting blessedness of the righteous; the abode of departed spirits.
(a) Christ calls it his “Father’s house” (John 14:2).
(b) It is called “paradise” (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7).
(c) “The heavenly Jerusalem” (Gal. 4:26; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 3:12).
(d) The “kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 25:1; James 2:5).
(e) The “eternal kingdom” (2 Pet. 1:11).
(f) The “eternal inheritance” (1 Pet. 1:4; Heb. 9:15).
(g) The “better country” (Heb. 11:14, 16).
(h) The blessed are said to “sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” and to be “in Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22; Matt. 8:11); to “reign with Christ” (2 Tim. 2:12); and to enjoy “rest” (Heb. 4:10, 11).In heaven the blessedness of the righteous consists in the possession of “life everlasting,” “an eternal weight of glory” (2 Cor. 4:17), an exemption from all sufferings for ever, a deliverance from all evils (2 Cor. 5:1, 2) and from the society of the wicked (2 Tim. 4:18), bliss without termination, the “fulness of joy” for ever (Luke 20:36; 2 Cor. 4:16, 18; 1 Pet. 1:4; 5:10; 1 John 3:2). The believer’s heaven is not only a state of everlasting blessedness, but also a “place”, a place “prepared” for them (John 14:2).
Easton, M. G. Easton’s Bible dictionary 1893 : n. pag. Print.
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I think Paul is speaking about himself in the second person. And what I find comforting is that he could not tell whether he was in or out of his body.
“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven. And I know that this man (whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up into paradise and heard things too sacred to be put into words, things that a person is not permitted to speak.” (2 Corinthians 12:2–4)
“even because of the extraordinary character of the revelations. Therefore, so that I would not become arrogant, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to trouble me—so that I would not become arrogant.” (2 Corinthians 12:7)
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In heaven the blessedness of the righteous consists in the possession of “life everlasting,” “an eternal weight of glory” (2 Cor. 4:17), an exemption from all sufferings for ever, a deliverance from all evils (2 Cor. 5:1, 2) and from the society of the wicked (2 Tim. 4:18), bliss without termination, the “fulness of joy” for ever (Luke 20:36; 2 Cor. 4:16, 18; 1 Pet. 1:4; 5:10; 1 John 3:2). The believer’s heaven is not only a state of everlasting blessedness, but also a “place”, a place “prepared” for them (John 14:2). Easton, M. G. Easton’s Bible dictionary 1893 : n. pag. Print.
Brethren,
Using one of Mitch's definitions, shared some time ago, are there multiple ways or just one way to get to heaven, as Steve Harvey said recently? What does the Bible says about the way to heaven? CM
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“I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven. And I know that this man (whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up into paradise and heard things too sacred to be put into words, things that a person is not permitted to speak.” (2 Corinthians 12:2–4)
DaveL, you said:
"... I find comforting is that he [Paul] could not tell whether he was in or out of his body".
Is this true? Why? You don't know or the Bible is not clear on the matter? To whom is Paul speaking (audience/culture belief) and what is actually being said? CM
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In studying, I found more to fatten the OP:
@reformed said above about Heaven:
Real place. We don't know where it is..."
Oh, really?
Heaven is where the trinity resides, “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name” (Matt 6:9). Jesus proclaimed to Nicodemus that heaven is above “no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man” (John 3:13). When Jesus left this earth He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11). Jesus, himself, proclaimed that heaven is above (John 3:13). What about it?
- This is where the throne of God resides (Isa 14:12-15).
- The prophet Ezekiel saw this throne in a vision and proclaimed it to us that we might believe (Eze 1:3-28).
- This place is where Jacob, at Bethel, was shown in a dream the angelic ministry of God on behalf of His people (Gen 28:12).
The great hope is that the faithful who died without having received the promise is waiting in their graves for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Heb 12: 1,2). Paul assures us of the gift of immortality.
- This waiting is confirmed by Paul as he gives us the assurance and reassurance of the power of the first resurrection (1 Thess 4:13-18).
In the last book of the Bible, Revelation, John made a similar proclamation:
“Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of god and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years,” in heaven (Rev 20:6).
It is after that thousand years that all things will be made new and the kingdom of our God and our Lord Jesus Christ will be set up on planet Earth and together we shall live forever and ever (Rev 21:1 —22:5). Great promise, Great hope! Keep studying Jesus is coming again. CM
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@reformed said above about Heaven: Real place. We don't know where it is..."
@C Mc Oh, really?
Heaven is where the trinity resides, “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name” (Matt 6:9). Jesus proclaimed to Nicodemus that heaven is above “no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man” (John 3:13). When Jesus left this earth He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11). Jesus, himself, proclaimed that heaven is above (John 3:13). What about it?
This is where the throne of God resides (Isa 14:12-15).
Oh, really ?? Well then, @C Mc , where then is this heaven ??? where then does God's throne reside?
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Jesus proclaimed to Nicodemus that heaven is above “no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man” (John 3:13). When Jesus left this earth He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11). Jesus, himself, proclaimed that heaven is above (John 3:13). What about it?
What is meant with "above"? If it is a reference to a place "above earth surface (e.g. outer space)", the place would be in the direction of "above" in one place on the globe but perhaps be in a "beneath" direction in a place on the opposite side of the globe ??
Something wrong somewhere ... in the ideas about "above"? or perhaps with the ideas of "the earth globe surrounded by ever expanding space?
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@Wolfgang posted:
Something wrong somewhere ... in the ideas about "above"? or perhaps with the ideas of "the earth globe surrounded by ever expanding space?
In my view, the issue is definitional, as to the word "above," but more broadly, as to the word "heaven."
When it refers to heaven, I take the word "above" to report separation and distinction, not location or direction. "Above" in such uses isn't the physical space above our bodies' current locations, but rather an existence/setting distinctly different from ours.
- Jesus instructs us to pray for God's will to be accomplished "on earth" - i.e. in this life - as it is "in heaven" - i.e. in an existence/setting different from earth (Matthew 6.10).
- In Mark 9.27, Jesus raises "up" a young boy who had died to life, to an existence/setting fundamentally different from death.
- Psalm 108.5 calls for God to be exalted "above the highest heaven" - i.e. in a way or to a level that is fundamentally different from what is possible in the physical domain of, on, or connected to the earth.
- Psalm 113.4 describes God as "high above the nations," and one whose "glory is higher than the heavens" - i.e. God is fundamentally different/greater than earthly nations, and has a glory that is greater than even the expanse of the universe visible (and not visible) from the earth.
- Isaiah 40.22 says God "sits above the circle of the earth" - i.e. beyond and distinctly different from earth-bound creation.
- In John 8.23, Jesus tells a crowd that they are "from below," while he is "from above." He then defines what those terms mean when tells them that they "belong to this world," while he does not.
In all of those cases (and many others I could cite), words such as "above" and "up" don't report location or direction, but rather separation and distinction. Heaven is "above" in that it is fundamentally different from (and better than) the earth. Hence, when Jesus says the Son of Man came "down from heaven" (John 3.13), he describes the Son's move from a higher - i.e. distinctly different and better - existence/setting to a lower one, the move from heaven to earth. The term does NOT report direction or location, but separation and distinction.
Bottom line: The earth is STILL a globe and heaven remains "above" the earth... just not above the physical space "above" our bodies.
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@Bill_Coley When it refers to heaven, I take the word "above" to report separation and distinction, not location or direction. "Above" in such uses isn't the physical space above our bodies' current locations, but rather an existence/setting distinctly different from ours.
I would say that while the word "heaven" is used of the space above earth surface in some contexts (such as when literal birds are mentioned as flying there), in contexts with reference to God, "heaven" describes the "spirit sphere" as distinct and superior to earth's "physical sphere". It is the sphere "where God abides".
At times the word is used by metonymy to refer to God Himself ("heaven" -- that is, God Himself -- revealed knowledge to Peter). Jesus did not descend from a higher existence into a lower existence .... he was sent by God ("came from heaven, came from above"). After having completed his mission, he was "received up to heaven", that is he received - as first one - eternal life in the presence of God (eternal life in the spiritual realm of God).
My earlier question
Something wrong somewhere ... in the ideas about "above"? or perhaps with the ideas of "the earth globe surrounded by ever expanding space?
actually pointed to problems I see connected with some ideas of "heaven" and "above" as a place mentioned in the original post ...
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What is "heaven" without Jesus as Lord and Savior? CM
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What is "heaven" without Jesus as Lord and Savior? CM
the same as with Jesus as lord and savior ..... the difference would be with the person who either believes or doesn't believe in Jesus => the one would have part in it, the other wouldn't.
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Is heaven a real place? If so, where is it and who dwells there?
Heaven is real. We don't seem to have an exact description of its location in the Bible. We don't know who all may dwell there. God does. Other creatures seem to be there as well. Godly people expect to be there.
When the Bible writers use the word "heaven" do they do so metaphorically? If so, what hope is there for the Christian believer?
Heaven is a very real hope both actually and metaphorically.
For a roundness of understanding, how is "Heaven" defined and/or believed in the intertestamental and rabbinic literature?
I haven't studied this at all. I am not sure it matters much for "roundness."
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Heaven is real.
Indeed ... and I would deem it important to notice that the word "heaven" is used in Scripture in different contexts to denote and refer to quite different things, including physical "locations" ( such as the air or atmosphere, where birds fly) and "spiritual realm" (the word being used figuratively to describe the "place" where God lives)
We don't seem to have an exact description of its location in the Bible. We don't know who all may dwell there. God does. Other creatures seem to be there as well. Godly people expect to be there.
I would simply refer to this "heaven" as "in the presence of God" ...
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I would simply refer to this "heaven" as "in the presence of God" ...
That is another aspect of heaven.
To be clear, the Bible explicitly describes Heaven as a place. It also explicitly describes Hell as a place. They are not the same place.
Unless you are Christian Science, in which case you and Heaven and Hell are all inside some nebulous idea.
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To be clear, the Bible explicitly describes Heaven as a place. It also explicitly describes Hell as a place. They are not the same place.
What do you mean with "place"`? A physical location somewhere on earth, in space, or something else? How does the Bible explicitly describe these as places - in a literal sense or by use of metaphor ? Jesus is described as "shepherd", was he in a literal sense a shepherd tending animals?
"Heaven" biblically is of course not the same as "Hell".
Unless you are Christian Science, in which case you and Heaven and Hell are all inside some nebulous idea.
Nothing "Christian Science" here, nor any "nebulous idea" .... but rather believing that God is SPIRIT (cp. John 4:24) I would understand "heaven as the place of God's abode" to be a SPIRITUAL reality and not some physical "mountain" or other place.
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What do you mean with "place"`?
The English definition of the word. As mentioned before, heaven may sometimes be used as a metaphor and other times a physical location. Mostly, the Bible seems clear which is which. I suppose there are instances that are up for interpretation grabs.
Jesus is described as "shepherd", was he in a literal sense a shepherd tending animals?
Jesus as Shepherd in biblical passages is a Metaphor of course. Jesus as Shepherd and Heaven as a locus are hardly comparable other than the possibility of being used as metaphors.
"Heaven" biblically is of course not the same as "Hell".
Correction: Not the same "place."
Nothing "Christian Science" here, nor any "nebulous idea" .... but rather believing that God is SPIRIT (cp. John 4:24) I would understand "heaven as the place of God's abode" to be a SPIRITUAL reality and not some physical "mountain" or other place.
God is a Spirit. He is also a real being who is biblically described as occupying locations. One does not negate the other.
Let's not debate every passage, but some references to heaven are probably physical, and some are probably metaphorical. Same with mountains. Discerning which is which is seldom a problem. A better argument might be made that God is omnipresent. Omnipresence is not metaphorical. God is real. He is not just an idea. He is more even than spirit--although He is that too.
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Gentlemen,
When you speak of "Hell", what kind? Is it:
- A place where the impenitent (unrepentant) sinners burn forever and consciously suffer pain in an everlasting and never-ending fire?
- Or a final judgment through which God annihilates sinners and sin forever?
The correct biblical understanding of "hell" would further help one establish the correct view of heaven. CM
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For the purpose of the topic of this thread, it sufficient to say that Hell is not the place or state of Heaven. Time overlaps.
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When you speak of "Hell", what kind?
I'll add a note that the Greek word gehenna, translated "hell", is actually the Greek word for the Ben Hinnom valley near Jerusalem which was the designated place where the accumulated trash was burned, and where thus a fire was ever burning; it was thus a symbol of where everything useless, awful, terrible, etc ended up. It seems that this word referring to this literal "place of continual fire" became part of an idiom in common day speech for pointing to an utterly terrible place of destruction.
Cp. Isa 66:24; Mt 5:29-30 ... where this idiom was used. Unfortunately, numerous readers don't recognize the use of this figure of speech idiom and instead incorrectly propagate some mysterious "hell" somewhere in some unknown place etc.
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The imagery of garbage burning in Gehenna is graphic enough and apt for Hell. The accumulated burning trash theory is questionable.
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The imagery of garbage burning in Gehenna is graphic enough and apt for Hell.
An image is not the reality itself ... it is used in a figure of speech, e.g. Simile (likeness), Metaphor (representation), Hypocatastasis (implication). The image of a "literally burning garbage fire" in a figurative statement that does NOT mean that "hell" is a literal place with literal fire. '
Same as the imagery of a "backbiting dog" when used figuratively does not mean that a human person referred to as a "dog" is a literal dog
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When Hell in some grammatical of syntactical structure is used as imagery, it is not literal. That is a given. When it is grammatically and syntactically literal, then it is real. Probably, I just repeated nearly what you said. :)
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Brethren, can we summarize "hell" by generally saying:
- The Bible teaches that hell is yet to come and will destroy sin and sinners totally?
- Hell is a terrifying place of utter anguish and eternal separation from God?
- Hell is the fire with which God consumes the wicked after the millennium?
The word “hell” as used in the King James Version of the Bible does not always mean a place of burning or punishment. The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible, and in only 12 cases does it refer to “a place of burning.”
- In the Old Testament hell is translated 31 times from “Shed”, which means “the grave.”
- In the New Testament “hell” is translated 23 times from three words:
- Hades, 10 times which means “the grave”.
- Gehenna 12 times which means “the place of burning”.
- Tartarus 1 time which means “a place of darkness”.
The 12 texts involving Gehenna, "place o f burning", are used as the primary support for the eternal "hellfire" teaching. The use of Gehenna in the New Testament organized into three sections:
Section 1: Lake of Fire -- is the second death when fire rains down from God out of heaven and annihilates the wicked.
- Rev 19:20 -- the fire burns with brimstone [sulfur].
- Rev 20:10 -- It is a place of torment "day and night forever".
- Rev 20:14 -- going there is the "second death".
- Rev 20:15 -- anyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life goes there.
- Rev 21:8 -- those who are committed to sinning and not to Christ go there, including the cowardly and unbelieving.
- James 3:6 -- the whole body set on fire by hell.
Section 2: Eternal Fire - means fire with everlasting results, not an endless process.
- Matt 18:8 -- hand, foot, eye cast in "everlasting/hell fire".
- Matt 25:41-- everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (demons).
- Jude 1:7 -- the vengeance of "eternal fire".
Section 3: Unquenchable Fire -- that hellfire will bring the wicked to destruction and ashes. In the New Testament:
- Matt 3:12 -- burn up the chaff with "unquenchable fire".
- Mark 9: 43, 46,48 -- the fire that shall never be quenched.
- Luke 3:17 -- burn up the chaff with "unquenchable fire".
In the Old Testament:
- Malachi 4:1, 3 -- “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble . . . For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this".
- Needless to say, the wicked people cannot be burning forever because the fire turns them to ashes and stubble. They burn until they are no more.
Truth found truth shared. Let's keep studying. CM
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To be true to this thread, let's return and be clear that Heaven is a real place! Scriptures tell us who dwells there:
- Jesus, Himself, proclaimed Heaven is above (John 3:13). This is where the throne of God resides (Isa 14:12-15).
- The prophet Ezekiel saw this throne in a vision and proclaimed it to us that we might believe (Eze. 1:3-28).
- Jacob at Bethel was shown in a dream the angelic ministry of God on behalf of His people (Gen 28:12).
The faithful who died are waiting in their graves for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Heb 12: 1, 2).
- Paul confirmed this as he gives us the assurance and reassurance of the power of the first resurrection (1 Thess. 4:13-18).
- John in the book of Revelation proclaimed:
“Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of god and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years,” in heaven (Rev 20:6).
It is after those thousand years that all things will be made new, and our Lord Jesus Christ will be set up on planet Earth and together we shall live forever and ever (Rev 21:1- 22:5).
He looks down from His holy habitation, from heaven, and blesses His people (Deut. 26:15; Ps. 53:2; Isa. 63:15).
The psalmist states:
- “The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord’s throne is in heaven” (Ps. 11:4).
- “The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all” (Ps. 103:19).
Jesus constantly referred to the “Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 5:16, 45; Mark 11:25).
All these references indicate that “heaven” is the abode or habitation of God, which the apostle Paul designated as “the third heaven” or “Paradise” (2 Cor. 12:2, 3). Where Jesus went later after His death and not the same day He died (John 20:17).
In sum, there are three heavens:
- The Starry Heavens – universe or the starry heavens (Sun, moon, and stars, galaxy, etc.).
- Atmospheric Heavens -- (“windows of heaven”) -- surround the earth, where the birds flew after their creation on the fifth day (Gen. 1:20). The waters above referring to the atmospheric heavens. The Hebrew word firmament (Gen. 1:8) might be translated as “sky” (NIV). It is that portion of the space above the earth in which water collects in the clouds.
- Paradise (God’s throne) -- is in the "third heaven" where God dwells.
Heaven is a real place with real hope for the righteous (living and dead). CM
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You put some work into those last two posts. They seem reasonable to me.
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@C Mc wrote: In sum, there are three heavens:
Here's some information from a well known dictionary (DBL Greek)
4041 οὐρανός (ouranos), οῦ (ou), ὁ (ho): n.masc.; ≡ DBLHebr 9028; Str 3772; TDNT 5.497—
1. LN 1.5 sky (Mt 16:2, 3);
2. LN 1.11 heaven, abode of God (Mt 18:10; Mk 16:19 v.r.; Lk 22:43 v.r.);
3. LN 12.16 God, (Lk 15:18, 21);
4. LN 1.3 ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ (ho ouranos kai hē gē), universe (Mt 11:25);
5. LN 1.43 ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανόν (hypo ton ouranon), on earth;
6. LN 4.41 πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ (peteina tou ouranou), wild birds (Mt 6:26; 8:20; 13:32; Mk 4:32; Lk 8:5; 9:58; 13:19; Ac 10:12; 11:6+);
7. LN 12.45 στρατιὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ (stratia tou ouranou), supernatural powers (Ac 7:42; Rev 19:14+);
8. LN 1.11 τρίτος οὐρανός (tritos ouranos), heaven, the abode of God (2Co 12:2+);
9. LN 59.66 κολλάομαι ἄχρι τοῦ οὐρανοῦ (kollaomai achri tou ouranou), increase greatly, formally, piled to heaven (Rev 18:5+)
Source: Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
It mentions uses of the word for "heaven" in its various uses and usages in Biblical texts.
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Do you know if there is sanctuary in Heaven? If so has anyone seen it? CM
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The verbiage sounds a little bit SDA.
Apparently there is a sanctuary in Heaven of some sort, the earthly sanctuary was patterned after it.
Hebrews 8:1-2—“We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens: a minister of the Sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man” (Hebrews 9:24).
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Fleshing out what's in Heaven:
- It's a real place.
- It has a sanctuary.
- God's dwelling.
- Ministering Angels.
- Christ on the right hand of the Father.
- It's apart from the earth.
- We concluded it's NOT "Hell" (place of darkness, burning, the grave, sadness, or where the dead sleeps).
Did I miss anything on this topic, Heaven? We have shared and mutually agreed upon these in the forums? CM
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