Heaven: Is it A Real Place, A State of Being or Time?
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There are a few pages more of details, but basically, you got the gist of it.
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More on heaven...
Solomon informs Israel that God’s name is in the temple, yet when they pray “toward this place” then Solomon asks that God may “hear in heaven your dwelling place; and when you hear, forgive.” This shows a link between God’s people who pray toward the earthly temple with God who hears from the heavenly temple. See, 1 Kgs 8:31-32, 33-34, 35-36, 38-39, 42-43, 44-45, 48-49.
For God’s dwelling place in heaven (referring to the "heavenly sanctuary" -- It's biblical, not of a particular denomination). From the "heavenly sanctuary", God is able to interact with his people in a very intimate and dynamic way. For instance:
- God is able to hear Solomon’s prayer from heaven (1 Kgs 8: 29- 30, 31-32, 33-34, 35-36, 38-39, 42-43, 44-45, 48-49).
- God is asked to forgive (1 Kgs 8: 30, 34, 36, 39, 50).
- To return them to the land He gave to their fathers (1 Kgs 8:34).
- To act and judge (1 Kgs 8: 32, 39, 43).
- To teach them the good way in which they should walk (1 Kgs 8:36).
- To send rain (1 Kgs 8: 36).
- To give to everyone according to his ways (1 Kgs 8:39).
- To maintain their cause (1 Kgs 8: 45, 49, 59).
- To grant them compassion (1 Kgs 8: 50).
- To speak and fulfill His Word (1 Kgs 8: 20, 24).
- To enter into and keep His covenant with His people (1 Kgs 8: 21, 23, 25).
One can see in the following verses where God’s name (שׁם) is mentioned in the context of the temple:
- I Kgs 8:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 29, 33, 35, 41, 42, 43(2), 44, 48.
God’s name “denotes the Lord himself” in 1 Kgs 5:5. Please note, in 2 Chr 20:8-9 ...
- “God’s name is present in the temple denotes his real presence”.
- It's also “denotes the Lord himself.”
In connection with 1 Kgs 5:5, after quoting 2 Chr 20:9 Sara Japhet notes that...
"To stand before the house is to stand before God. Here we find the element missing from the body of Solomon’s prayer: YHWH’s presence in the Temple, which is conveyed with ‘before the Lord.’ The words, ‘for thy name is in this house, reinforce (a) the idea that ‘the name of the Lord’ is fully equivalent to ‘the Lord’ and (b) the strong emphasis on God’s presence in the Temple. The Temple does not function as a channel through which prayers pass upward to heaven, where they are heard by God; rather, prayers are said in the Temple because God hears them in the Temple. The absolute equation of God and His name is also implicit in the parallel structure of 1 Chr 29:13: ‘And now we thank thee, our God, and praise thy glorious name.’ When we praise His glorious name, repeatedly utter His name in hymn and thanksgiving, we thank God; ‘thee’ and ‘thy name’ are therefore one and the same" (emphasis original -- (See Sara Japhet).
Let's not miss it, prayers are heard in heaven. Until next time, keep studying. CM
Sources:
- Donald J. Wiseman, 1 and 2 Kings: An Introduction and Commentary TOTC (Downer’s Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), 119
- Leslie C. Allen, 1, 2 Chronicles Communicator’s Commentary Series: Old Testament (CCSOT; Waco, TX: Word Books, 1986), 231.
- Gene Rice, 1 Kings: Nations Under God ITC (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1990), pp 64, 65.
- Sara Japhet, The Ideology of the Book of Chronicles and Its Place in Biblical Thought, 54-55.
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For God’s dwelling place in heaven (referring to the "heavenly sanctuary" -- It's biblical, not of a particular denomination). From the "heavenly sanctuary", God is able to interact with his people in a very intimate and dynamic way.
So then, where is this place "heaven" (if it is one) located? Or is it not a physical location?
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So then, where is this place "heaven" (if it is one) located?
We don't have GPS coordinates. That lack is not evidence that Heaven does not exist. God is there. The resurrected body of Jesus is there. The Lord's prayer mentions its location. So do passages from the books of Job and Revelation. Some people lay up treasure in Heaven. If Heaven is the location of our Father's house, then some of us have rooms prepared there.
Or is it not a physical location?
New Jerusalem seems connected with the notion of Heaven. Physical locations for this city are mentioned.
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We don't have GPS coordinates. That lack is not evidence that Heaven does not exist.
I would say that "heaven" exists, there are plenty references in Scripture. The question here however is to understand what heaven is, and following on if it is a place, a particular location, one should know info about where that location is.
God is there. The resurrected body of Jesus is there. The Lord's prayer mentions its location.
What does the lord's prayer mention about the location of heaven?
So do passages from the books of Job and Revelation.
To which passages in Job and Revelation are you referring?
Some people lay up treasure in Heaven. If Heaven is the location of our Father's house, then some of us have rooms prepared there.
Careful ... how does this help for understanding what and where heaven is?
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The question here however is to understand what heaven is, and following on if it is a place, a particular location, one should know info about where that location is.
As indicated in my post above, descriptions of heaven demonstrate that it is a location. We are not given details of the location.
It does not logically follow that If Heaven is a place, then we should know info about its location.
What does the lord's prayer mention about the location of heaven?
The Lord's prayer offers info about the location of where Father is and where His will is done.
To which passages in Job and Revelation are you referring?
Various. Such passages are commonly enough known that I didn't provide a list.
Careful ... how does this help for understanding what and where heaven is?
The word heaven is used, so it must be a clue. I will go out on a sturdy limb to say most people think so.
The passage helps us know where what heaven is by providing a simple clear description of something done there.
The passage helps us know that heaven is a place or location where something is stored.
Also, angels, a throne, and people are in Heaven.
Much remains to be known about Heaven and the details of our eternal state. I imagine that the future heaven and people are very real--more real and physical than at present, Whatever heaven turns out to be like, it will not disappoint.
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@byGeorge posted:
Whatever heaven turns out to be like, it will not disappoint.
Superb. A magnificent turn of phrase. Thanks.
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The word heaven is used, so it must be a clue. I will go out on a sturdy limb to say most people think so.
The passage helps us know where what heaven is by providing a simple clear description of something done there.
The passage helps us know that heaven is a place or location where something is stored.
??? your points here reflect going in circles without any real pertinent information for location.
just because I study at college, doesn't tell you about the location of the college, does it? We know from records what is said about some things done in heaven, but how does that say anything about the location of heaven?
Heaven is said to be a place "above" in some passages ... which would point to a location above the ground. Is there a place that could be described with "above" places on earth surface ? It could not be "above" planet earth as a place above the planet would at the same time be below the planet on the other side in space ...
What about the reference to "heaven ... mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north ...etc" in Isa 14:13-15 ?
Isa 14:13-15 (KJV (2009)
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Also, the important question to be answered is whether passages about "heaven" were written with a literal meaning, or if these passages involve the use of figures of speech (such as metaphor, simile, metonymy) for purpose of emphasis? For example, is there a literal physical temple / tabernacle building in heaven floating in space above the clouds somwhere?
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??? your points here reflect going in circles without any real pertinent information for location.
True. We discussed that already. We don't know Heaven's GPS coordinates. We know Heaven is a location.
Heaven is said to be a place "above" in some passages
Speculation leads me to think "above" means "not here," as in "we are not in Heaven." Because it is not here, it must be "out there."
What about the reference to "heaven ... mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north ...etc." in Isa 14:13-15 ?
My guess is that those verses which record the boasting of an ungodly king are an allusion to mythology and do not refer to the Heaven of which we speak.
Also, the important question to be answered is whether passages about "heaven" were written with a literal meaning, or if these passages involve the use of figures of speech (such as metaphor, simile, metonymy) for purpose of emphasis? For example, is there a literal physical temple / tabernacle building in heaven floating in space above the clouds somewhere?
Some references are figures of speech; some are not. Some may be abbreviated descriptions.
I am skeptical that a literal tabernacle is floating in space above the clouds. However, I am less skeptical that there may be a literal tabernacle of some type out there somewhere.
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@Wolfgang said:
What about the reference to "heaven ... mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north ...etc" in Isa 14:13-15 ?
A metaphorical (not real) meaning of the term "heaven" is used in Isa. 14:13, 14. The grave is also personified. However, we all know that the dead is in the grave. There is much evidence that the dead is an unconscious, sleep-like state (e.g. 1 Kgs 2.10; Ps. 13.3; Eccl. 9.5; Acts 7.60; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).
Read the previous posts in this thread, you find several of your questions answered as much as the Bible has revealed them. We know for sure that heaven is NOT in the Atmospheric (birds, clouds, etc.) or the starry heavens (Moon, stars planets, etc.). CM
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