LITERAL Hellfire Torment—Not A Bible Teaching

John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone expelling demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.”

But Jesus said, “Do not prevent him, because there is no one who does a miracle in my name and will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in my name because you are Christ’s, truly I say to you that he will never lose his reward. 

“And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it is better for him if instead a large millstone is placed around his neck and he is thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life crippled than, having two hands, to go into hell — into the unquenchable fire! And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life lame than, having two feet, to be thrown into hell! And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out! It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not extinguished.’ For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt becomes deprived of its salt content, by what can you make it salty? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another.” 

 W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mk 9:38–50.

Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.

And he said to them, “You are the ones who justify themselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts! For what is considered exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. 

“The law and the prophets were until John; from that time on the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urgently pressed into it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the law to become invalid. 

“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and the one who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery. 

“Now a certain man was rich, and dressed in purple cloth and fine linen, feasting sumptuously every day.

And a certain poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, lay at his gate, and was longing to be filled with what fell from the table of the rich man. But even the dogs came and licked his sores.

Now it happened that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side.

And the rich man also died and was buried.

And in Hades he lifted up his eyes as he was in torment and saw Abraham from a distance, and Lazarus at his side.

And he called out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he could dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am suffering pain in this flame!’

But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received your good things during your life, and Lazarus likewise bad things. But now he is comforted here, but you are suffering pain. And in addition to all these things, a great chasm has been established between us and you, so that those who want to cross over from here to you are not able to do so, nor can they cross over from there to us.’

So he said, ‘Then I ask you, father, that you send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he could warn them, in order that they also should not come to this place of torment!’

But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must listen to them.’

And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent!’

But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone rises from the dead.’ ” 

 W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Lk 16:14–31.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 12 My experience with human belief is incredible stubbornness. Personally not aware of any Christian Debate discussion where somebody admitted personal belief change while have often encountered attitude: "I know what I believe, do not confuse me with the facts"

@NeutralZone June 29 I'm interested in finding out why you posted the account about the Rich Man and Lazarus in light of the fact it's a parable.

@NeutralZone

"There's no need for me to give even the "briefest background" as to why literal hellfire torment is not a Bible teaching in light of the fact there are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support the dogma. That's why I invited those interested in the discussion to answer the questions following my Opening Statement ("OP")."

"Nonsense, Pages. You detected my comment was "emotion-laced" despite the fact I was completely non-emotional in what I stated in those five lines making up my OP. I was merely stating facts that you don't happen to agree with."

"I asked five different questions in my OP that are intended to be the basis of a debate in which the Bible will be the authority. Not only have you avoided responding to those five questions, you're instead telling me that everything stated in my OP is my personal opinion. Meanwhile, you've yet to present a single verse of scripture that supports the religious dogma of literal hellfire torment."

@NeutralZone June 30 The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed.

@NeutralZone June 30 Matthew 13:33 ... Matthew 13:34 ...

Then he left the crowds and came into the house,

and his disciples came to him saying, “Explain the parable of the darnel in the field to us.”

So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world. And the good seed — these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear! 

 W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mt 13:36–43.

@NeutralZone June 30 There are other events within this parable aka fictitious story that are red flags to alert readers that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is nothing more than another of Jesus’ illustrations. Let me remind you of what scripture says about Jesus’s method of teaching.

But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must listen to them.’

@NeutralZone June 8  The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in literal flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoings committed during the relatively brief human lifespan.

@Pages June 19 In simple terms, I find the opening remarks you make to be emotion-laced without providing meaningful substance supportive for the assertion of "Not a Bible Teaching".

@Pages June 30 The choice of words, "defame" and "sadist" are words that evoke emotion in a listener or reader. Those words are used purposefully – it might be said to have a bit of "poisoning the well" effect.

@NeutralZone July 4 I have discussed this topic at numerous websites over the years, using the same words in the opening post, and nobody reading my previous threads have come up with the claim that the words "defame" and "sadist" evoke emotion.

@NeutralZone June 30 The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 4 Thank you for expressing your faith belief interpretation of Luke 16:19-31, yet my purpose question remains unanswered:

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 4 After Pharisees had ridiculed parables told by Jesus, what would be the purpose of a true story having two named participants (Lazarus & Abraham) ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 4 (humanly wonder how many Pharisees personally knew the Rich Man and Lazarus). Also the disciples response "Increase our faith!" in Luke 17:5 notably lacks request for parable explanation, quite different than Matthew 13:36 request to understand the parable of the darnel in the field. Matthew chapter 13 has the word "parable" a dozen times while the next occurence after Luke 15:3 "parable" is Luke 18:1 "parable".

@NeutralZone July 4 You are asking me the same question that I answered previously, so I will repeat the same response:

@NeutralZone July 4 The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed. In fact, if you take note, you will see that the "Rich Man" remains nameless throughout the tale, and the "Lazarus" within this story is a beggar, unlike the real Lazarus of Bethany who was the brother of Martha and Mary, whom Jesus had resurrected after he had been dead for several days.

Then he left the crowds and came into the house,

and his disciples came to him saying, “Explain the parable of the darnel in the field to us.”

So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world. And the good seed — these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear! 

 W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mt 13:36–43.

@NeutralZone July 4 If you want to proceed by answering the questions in my opening post, feel free to do so.

@NeutralZone July 4 I never express my opinion when discussing scripture. I always allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, and I do that by paying attention to CONTEXT (surrounding words, verses and chapters.