LITERAL Hellfire Torment—Not A Bible Teaching
The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in literal flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoings committed during the relatively brief human lifespan.
Hellfire believers insist that the wicked will literally experience pain while burning in literal flames of fire—after they have died. So that brings us to the questions below.
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there are scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If you believe that to be the case, please quote up to three (3) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse, along with a brief explanation for why you believe the verses are talking LITERAL hellfire torment.
2. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, only wicked people will wind up in hell. Is that what you believe?
3. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to that effect to prove it (no more than 3 scriptures at a time, please). Follow the steps indicated at Question #1.
4. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in a burning hellfire if they aren't even aware?
5. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also, or does the term "soul" apply only to humans?
NeutralZone
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
Comments
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Mark 9:38-30 Lexham English Bible (LEB) =>
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone expelling demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.”
But Jesus said, “Do not prevent him, because there is no one who does a miracle in my name and will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in my name because you are Christ’s, truly I say to you that he will never lose his reward.
“And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it is better for him if instead a large millstone is placed around his neck and he is thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life crippled than, having two hands, to go into hell — into the unquenchable fire! And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off! It is better for you to enter into life lame than, having two feet, to be thrown into hell! And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out! It is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not extinguished.’ For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good, but if the salt becomes deprived of its salt content, by what can you make it salty? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mk 9:38–50.
To me, hands & feet show personal choices what to ❤️ love most. Actions speak louder than words.
Luke 16:14-31 LEB with Luke 16:14-15 pronouns "him" & "he"referring to Jesus =>
Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
And he said to them, “You are the ones who justify themselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts! For what is considered exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John; from that time on the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urgently pressed into it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the law to become invalid.
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and the one who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
“Now a certain man was rich, and dressed in purple cloth and fine linen, feasting sumptuously every day.
And a certain poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, lay at his gate, and was longing to be filled with what fell from the table of the rich man. But even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Now it happened that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side.
And the rich man also died and was buried.
And in Hades he lifted up his eyes as he was in torment and saw Abraham from a distance, and Lazarus at his side.
And he called out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he could dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am suffering pain in this flame!’
But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received your good things during your life, and Lazarus likewise bad things. But now he is comforted here, but you are suffering pain. And in addition to all these things, a great chasm has been established between us and you, so that those who want to cross over from here to you are not able to do so, nor can they cross over from there to us.’
So he said, ‘Then I ask you, father, that you send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he could warn them, in order that they also should not come to this place of torment!’
But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must listen to them.’
And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent!’
But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Lk 16:14–31.
My experience with human belief is incredible stubbornness. Personally not aware of any Christian Debate discussion where somebody admitted personal belief change while have often encountered attitude: "I know what I believe, do not confuse me with the facts"
Love is a choice. Each person has free will choice what to ❤️ love most. My choice is ❤️ Holy יהוה אלהים because eternal Holy יהוה אלהים first ❤️ loved me => provided Holy way of escape from sin punishment. Every creature in Holy Heaven is choosing to ❤️ Holy יהוה אלהים most. I can only imagine living in Holy ❤️ love with everyone as we worship together 🙏
Immensely Thankful for me asking Holy יהוה אלהים for forgiveness from my sins against Holy יהוה אלהים being instantly forgiven (reason for me to always Keep Smiling 4 Jesus 😍) while my transformation to become Holy as Holy יהוה אלהים is a work in progress that includes יהוה Ruach HaKodesh (יהוה Breath The Holy) continually dwelling in me.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Welcome to the forum.
Given the title used for this thread, and various statements made in your post, it will be correct to believe that you are one who does not consider this "teaching" to be at all biblical.
Yet, surprisingly your post is lacking even the briefest background as to why you view this as "Not a Bible Teaching".
In simple terms, I find the opening remarks you make to be emotion-laced without providing meaningful substance supportive for the assertion of "Not a Bible Teaching".
Regarding the opening remarks.
"The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions."
And why do you think that is? There is no specific engagement with that in your post.
"This teaching defames the Creator"
Indeed, this is your opinion; but, what evidence can you provide in support of that opinion? In other words, what are the specific grounds for the basis of this being slanderous to "the Creator"?
"and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people"
A continuation of opinion. According to Ezek. 18:23, 32, 33:11 God does not derive any kind of pleasure, sexual or otherwise, when exercising judgment.
Do you have other scripture in mind which you believe addresses that concern directly?
"in literal flames of fire"
Is it the word "literal" that you find disagreeable; and, instead prefer a metaphorical sense for "flames of fire", as you state it? Again, the lack of engagement leaves this unknown.
"for all eternity–"
Is "eternity" at issue?
"as punishment for wrongdoings committed during the relatively brief human lifespan."
What importance does the length of lifespan for humans play in the administering of final judgment by God?
"Hellfire believers insist that the wicked will literally experience pain while burning in literal flames of fire—after they have died."
Do you think this is directly related to certain statements made throughout scripture (cf. Dan. 12:2; Is. 33:14; Mt. 13:42, 50, 18:8, 25:41, 46; Jude 7; Re. 20:10)?
Regarding "—after they have died" it is not clear what you were wanting to convey by that. Are you speaking of annihilation?
As I understand the position with which you consider non-biblical, the unrighteous are alive at the time of their judgment – those who have been raised from the grave, along with those still living at the time of Christ's return (cf. Jn. 5:28-29).
And, following on that, the literal, or metaphorical, "eternal flames" are not said to consume the unrighteous. It is said to be an "eternal punishment" which is contrasted generally to the righteous receiving "eternal life" (cf. Mt. 25:46).
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Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:
"My experience with human belief is incredible stubbornness. Personally not aware of any Christian Debate discussion where somebody admitted personal belief change while have often encountered attitude: "I know what I believe, do not confuse me with the facts"
I'm interested in finding out why you posted the account about the Rich Man and Lazarus in light of the fact it's a parable.
NeutralZone
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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Pages wrote:
"Yet, surprisingly your post is lacking even the briefest background as to why you view this as "Not a Bible Teaching".
Pages:
Thank you for the welcome.
There's no need for me to give even the "briefest background" as to why literal hellfire torment is not a Bible teaching in light of the fact there are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support the dogma. That's why I invited those interested in the discussion to answer the questions following my Opening Statement ("OP").
NeutralZone
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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Pages wrote:
In simple terms, I find the opening remarks you make to be emotion-laced without providing meaningful substance supportive for the assertion of "Not a Bible Teaching".
Nonsense, Pages. You detected my comment was "emotion-laced" despite the fact I was completely non-emotional in what I stated in those five lines making up my OP. I was merely stating facts that you don't happen to agree with.
NeutralZone
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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I asked five different questions in my OP that are intended to be the basis of a debate in which the Bible will be the authority. Not only have you avoided responding to those five questions, you're instead telling me that everything stated in my OP is my personal opinion. Meanwhile, you've yet to present a single verse of scripture that supports the religious dogma of literal hellfire torment.
NeutralZone
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 12 My experience with human belief is incredible stubbornness. Personally not aware of any Christian Debate discussion where somebody admitted personal belief change while have often encountered attitude: "I know what I believe, do not confuse me with the facts"
@NeutralZone June 29 I'm interested in finding out why you posted the account about the Rich Man and Lazarus in light of the fact it's a parable.
After Pharisees had ridiculed parables told by Jesus, what would be the purpose of a true story having two named participants (Lazarus & Abraham) ? (humanly wonder how many Pharisees personally knew the Rich Man and Lazarus). Also the disciples response "Increase our faith!" notably lacks request for parable explanation:
Screen shot shows Luke specifically identified some parables. Also ridiculed is highlighted in the middle from Logos Bible Study precise search in LEB: parable OR ridicule
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
"After Pharisees had ridiculed parables told by Jesus, what would be the purpose of a true story having two named participants (Lazarus & Abraham) ? (humanly wonder how many Pharisees personally knew the Rich Man and Lazarus). Also the disciples response "Increase our faith!" notably lacks request for parable explanation:"
NeutralZone's Response:
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed. In fact, if you take note, you will see that the "Rich Man" remains nameless throughout the tale, and the "Lazarus" within this story is a beggar, unlike the real Lazarus of Bethany who was the brother of Martha and Mary, whom Jesus had resurrected after he had been dead for several days.
There are other events within this parable aka fictitious story that are red flags to alert readers that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is nothing more than another of Jesus’ illustrations. Let me remind you of what scripture says about Jesus’s method of teaching.
Matthew 13:33
He told them another illustration: “The Kingdom of the heavens is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.”
Matthew 13:34
All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them,
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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"There's no need for me to give even the "briefest background" as to why literal hellfire torment is not a Bible teaching in light of the fact there are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support the dogma. That's why I invited those interested in the discussion to answer the questions following my Opening Statement ("OP")."
What then, in your opinion, do you consider this non-biblical teaching to be based upon if, as you say, there "are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support the dogma."? You certainly must have some idea, or basis, to go on to take this position. I'm interested in what specifically that is.
"Nonsense, Pages. You detected my comment was "emotion-laced" despite the fact I was completely non-emotional in what I stated in those five lines making up my OP. I was merely stating facts that you don't happen to agree with."
The choice of words, "defame" and "sadist" are words that evoke emotion in a listener or reader. Those words are used purposefully – it might be said to have a bit of "poisoning the well" effect.
Unfortunately, what you personally presume to be facts are nothing more than opinion, as presented, having given no background at all to provide specific support for what is claimed to be fact on your part. An assertion used to support a previous assertion without actual supporting evidence given, simply fails; and, is to be rejected.
Surprisingly, nowhere in my writing did I state that I was in disagreement with your position on this – I simply asked obvious questions of what you had written. It is one way of gaining understanding and clarity on what was written.
"I asked five different questions in my OP that are intended to be the basis of a debate in which the Bible will be the authority. Not only have you avoided responding to those five questions, you're instead telling me that everything stated in my OP is my personal opinion. Meanwhile, you've yet to present a single verse of scripture that supports the religious dogma of literal hellfire torment."
My interest in your post was not founded upon wanting to debate this subject; it was instead, to gain insight into how and why you came to state what you did. To that endeavor I asked questions relevant of those statements without taking a position one way or another.
At this time I will consider this exchange as complete.
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Pages said:
What then, in your opinion, do you consider this non-biblical teaching to be based upon if, as you say, there "are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support the dogma."? You certainly must have some idea, or basis, to go on to take this position. I'm interested in what specifically that is.
NeutralZone's response:
I never express my opinion when discussing scripture. I always allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, and I do that by paying attention to CONTEXT (surrounding words, verses and chapters. Again, I presented five questions in my OP that you may respond to. That's the only way we can have a Bible-based discussion.
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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Pages said:
The choice of words, "defame" and "sadist" are words that evoke emotion in a listener or reader. Those words are used purposefully – it might be said to have a bit of "poisoning the well" effect.
Unfortunately, what you personally presume to be facts are nothing more than opinion, as presented, having given no background at all to provide specific support for what is claimed to be fact on your part. An assertion used to support a previous assertion without actual supporting evidence given, simply fails; and, is to be rejected.
Surprisingly, nowhere in my writing did I state that I was in disagreement with your position on this – I simply asked obvious questions of what you had written. It is one way of gaining understanding and clarity on what was written.
NeutralZone's response:
I have discussed this topic at numerous websites over the years, using the same words in the opening post, and nobody reading my previous threads have come up with the claim that the words "defame" and "sadist" evoke emotion.
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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Pages said:
My interest in your post was not founded upon wanting to debate this subject; it was instead, to gain insight into how and why you came to state what you did. To that endeavor I asked questions relevant of those statements without taking a position one way or another.
At this time I will consider this exchange as complete.
NeutralZone's response:
Feel free to return when you decide to discuss this topic while allowing scripture to be the authority.
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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@NeutralZone June 30 The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed.
Thank you for expressing your faith belief interpretation of Luke 16:19-31, yet my purpose question remains unanswered:
After Pharisees had ridiculed parables told by Jesus, what would be the purpose of a true story having two named participants (Lazarus & Abraham) ?
(humanly wonder how many Pharisees personally knew the Rich Man and Lazarus). Also the disciples response "Increase our faith!" in Luke 17:5 notably lacks request for parable explanation, quite different than Matthew 13:36 request to understand the parable of the darnel in the field. Matthew chapter 13 has the word "parable" a dozen times while the next occurence after Luke 15:3 "parable" is Luke 18:1 "parable".
Logos Bible Study precise search in the Lexham English Bible (LEB) for (parable OR term:(crowd OR them) OR term:(evil OR furnace OR weeping)) IN milestone:bible:mt13 found 42 results in 26 verses IN Matthew 13:
My eyes see the context of "them" in Matthew 13:32-34 being the "large crowds" or "crowd" mentioned in Matthew 13:1-2
After leaving the crowds ("them"), how did Jesus explain the parable of the darnel in the field in Matthew 13:36-43
Then he left the crowds and came into the house,
and his disciples came to him saying, “Explain the parable of the darnel in the field to us.”
So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world. And the good seed — these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear!
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mt 13:36–43.
What weeping and gnashing of teeth do people who chose evil (with lawless deeds proving individual choices what to love most) experience in the fiery furnance ?
@NeutralZone June 30 There are other events within this parable aka fictitious story that are red flags to alert readers that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is nothing more than another of Jesus’ illustrations. Let me remind you of what scripture says about Jesus’s method of teaching.
To me, "them" crowds in Matthew 13:32-34 are different than "them" Pharisees in Luke 16:15 so parable teaching to "them" crowds is different than Jesus loving response to "them" Pharisees.
Logos Bible Study precise search in the LEB for (parable OR term:(Pharisees OR them) OR term:(Lazarus OR Moses)) IN milestone:bible:lk15-16 found 19 results in 13 verses in Luke 15-16 (& my eyes noticed "parable" only occurs in Luke 15:3).
Logos Bible Study precise search in the LEB for (crowd OR evil OR Abraham OR term:("rich man" OR torment) OR fire ) IN milestone:bible:lk15-16 found 10 results in 8 verses in Luke 15-16 (& shows "crowd", "evil", & "fire" do not appear in these two chapters):
The Hebrew Bible is organized into three sections: Torah (Law, Teaching, Books of Moses), Nevi’im (Prophets) and K’tuvim (Writings).
Hence Luke 16:29 (LEB)
But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must listen to them.’
reads to me as Abraham referring to the written word of God (as Moses and Abraham were NOT physically walking in human bodies on earth with Jesus).
FWIW: the only building by Herod the Great that remains in tact after 2,000 years is the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, which was built over the Cave of Machpelah where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebeccah, Israel (Jacob), & Leah are buried. The tomb of Rachel is in Bethlehem (house of bread).
@NeutralZone June 8 The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in literal flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoings committed during the relatively brief human lifespan.
@Pages June 19 In simple terms, I find the opening remarks you make to be emotion-laced without providing meaningful substance supportive for the assertion of "Not a Bible Teaching".
@Pages June 30 The choice of words, "defame" and "sadist" are words that evoke emotion in a listener or reader. Those words are used purposefully – it might be said to have a bit of "poisoning the well" effect.
@NeutralZone July 4 I have discussed this topic at numerous websites over the years, using the same words in the opening post, and nobody reading my previous threads have come up with the claim that the words "defame" and "sadist" evoke emotion.
Personally concur with @Pages about lack of "teaching" basis by @NeutralZone. Also agree the words "defame" and "sadist" evoke emotion with "poisoning the well" intent (as @NeutralZone expressed personal faith belief). The Creator takes no pleasure in the death of the dying:
To me when a wicked human repents from sin and turns to truly Love ❤️ our Holy Lord God with everything, the forgiveness from Holy Lord God comes with cleansing from unrighteouseness along with immense Rejoicing 😍
To me, Holy Heaven has Holy Lord God with all creatures choosing to truly Love ❤️ Holy Lord God ❤️ (beyond my imagination & words to describe)
Personally have no desire for anyone to experience eternity away from ❤️ Holy Lord God ❤️ where weeping & gnashing of teeth in the fiery furnance distract from the real pain of lacking ❤️ Holy Lord God ❤️
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
After Pharisees had ridiculed parables told by Jesus, what would be the purpose of a true story having two named participants (Lazarus & Abraham) ?
NeutralZone's Response:
You are asking me the same question that I answered previously, so I will repeat the same response:
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed. In fact, if you take note, you will see that the "Rich Man" remains nameless throughout the tale, and the "Lazarus" within this story is a beggar, unlike the real Lazarus of Bethany who was the brother of Martha and Mary, whom Jesus had resurrected after he had been dead for several days.
If you want to proceed by answering the questions in my opening post, feel free to do so.
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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@NeutralZone June 30 The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 4 Thank you for expressing your faith belief interpretation of Luke 16:19-31, yet my purpose question remains unanswered:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 4 After Pharisees had ridiculed parables told by Jesus, what would be the purpose of a true story having two named participants (Lazarus & Abraham) ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 4 (humanly wonder how many Pharisees personally knew the Rich Man and Lazarus). Also the disciples response "Increase our faith!" in Luke 17:5 notably lacks request for parable explanation, quite different than Matthew 13:36 request to understand the parable of the darnel in the field. Matthew chapter 13 has the word "parable" a dozen times while the next occurence after Luke 15:3 "parable" is Luke 18:1 "parable".
@NeutralZone July 4 You are asking me the same question that I answered previously, so I will repeat the same response:
@NeutralZone July 4 The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed. In fact, if you take note, you will see that the "Rich Man" remains nameless throughout the tale, and the "Lazarus" within this story is a beggar, unlike the real Lazarus of Bethany who was the brother of Martha and Mary, whom Jesus had resurrected after he had been dead for several days.
Thank you for repeating your faith belief interpretation of Luke 16:19-31, which notable lacks interaction with my literal Biblical basis for Luke 16:19-31 being a true story (different than a parable). Also notably lacking is any @NeutralZone reply to: After leaving the crowds ("them"), how did Jesus explain the parable of the darnel in the field in Matthew 13:36-43
Then he left the crowds and came into the house,
and his disciples came to him saying, “Explain the parable of the darnel in the field to us.”
So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world. And the good seed — these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear!
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mt 13:36–43.
What weeping and gnashing of teeth do people who chose evil (with lawless deeds proving individual choices what to love most) experience in the fiery furnance ?
@NeutralZone July 4 If you want to proceed by answering the questions in my opening post, feel free to do so.
Biblical blindness ? If you would like clarification for any of my answers posted on July 4, please feel free to do so. All five Discussion questions posted by @NeutralZone on June 8 have my answers embedded in my July 4 comments, albeit without question #. For example, three Bible passages: Matthew 13, Luke 15-16, & Ezekiel 18 (using chapter numbers that were added to Holy Scripture in the early 13th Century).
My eyes see @NeutralZone has posted two Bible verses (Matthew 13:33 & Matthew 13:34) in this discussion while asserting:
@NeutralZone July 4 I never express my opinion when discussing scripture. I always allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, and I do that by paying attention to CONTEXT (surrounding words, verses and chapters.
Notably missing from original post by @NeutralZone on June 8 is any Biblical basis for @NeutralZone beilief opinion.
Keep Smilnig 😊
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@NeutralZone July 4 The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed. In fact, if you take note, you will see that the "Rich Man" remains nameless throughout the tale, and the "Lazarus" within this story is a beggar, unlike the real Lazarus of Bethany who was the brother of Martha and Mary, whom Jesus had resurrected after he had been dead for several days.
Keep_Smiling said:
Thank you for repeating your faith belief interpretation of Luke 16:19-31, which notable lacks interaction with my literal Biblical basis for Luke 16:19-31 being a true story (different than a parable). Also notably lacking is any @NeutralZone reply to: After leaving the crowds ("them"), how did Jesus explain the parable of the darnel in the field in Matthew 13:36-43
Then he left the crowds and came into the house,
and his disciples came to him saying, “Explain the parable of the darnel in the field to us.”
So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world. And the good seed — these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear!
NeutralZone said:
The explanation of the parable at Matthew 13:36-43 does not support your argument that Jesus was talking about literal hellfire torment. You are putting your hopes on symbolic language. Notice what Jesus said at verses 42 and 43.
Matthew 13:42
and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.
Matthew 13:43
At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.
If your argument is that the "fiery furnace" is literal, then what's stated at verse 43 must also be literal when it says righteous humans will "shine as brightly as the sun." How do you explain verse 43?
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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@NeutralZone July 4 If you want to proceed by answering the questions in my opening post, feel free to do so.
Keep_Smiling said:
Biblical blindness ? If you would like clarification for any of my answers posted on July 4, please feel free to do so. All five Discussion questions posted by @NeutralZone on June 8 have my answers embedded in my July 4 comments, albeit without question #. For example, three Bible passages: Matthew 13, Luke 15-16, & Ezekiel 18 (using chapter numbers that were added to Holy Scripture in the early 13th Century).
NeutralZone said:
I asked for three verses of scriptures and you posted a wall of text. Who do you think has the time to read all of that?
Whenever people respond with a wall of text, like you have been doing, it indicates they are not interested in having a meaningful discussion.
". . . be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath. " (James 1:19)
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@NeutralZone July 4 The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable. The mentioning of Abraham and Moses within the parable aka fictitious story does not change that reality, because the main characters within the story, namely: the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus," were fictitious people. They never existed. In fact, if you take note, you will see that the "Rich Man" remains nameless throughout the tale, and the "Lazarus" within this story is a beggar, unlike the real Lazarus of Bethany who was the brother of Martha and Mary, whom Jesus had resurrected after he had been dead for several days.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 5 Thank you for repeating your faith belief interpretation of Luke 16:19-31, which notable lacks interaction with my literal Biblical basis for Luke 16:19-31 being a true story (different than a parable). Also notably lacking is any @NeutralZone reply to: After leaving the crowds ("them"), how did Jesus explain the parable of the darnel in the field in Matthew 13:36-43
Then he left the crowds and came into the house,
and his disciples came to him saying, “Explain the parable of the darnel in the field to us.”
So he answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world. And the good seed — these are the sons of the kingdom, but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. And the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Thus just as the darnel is gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the causes of sin and those who do lawless deeds, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth! Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one who has ears, let him hear!
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mt 13:36–43.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 5 What weeping and gnashing of teeth do people who chose evil (with lawless deeds proving individual choices what to love most) experience in the fiery furnance ?
@NeutralZone July 14 The explanation of the parable at Matthew 13:36-43 does not support your argument that Jesus was talking about literal hellfire torment. You are putting your hopes on symbolic language. Notice what Jesus said at verses 42 and 43.
Matthew 13:42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.
Matthew 13:43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen.
@NeutralZone July 14 If your argument is that the "fiery furnace" is literal, then what's stated at verse 43 must also be literal when it says righteous humans will "shine as brightly as the sun." How do you explain verse 43?
Personally looking forward to being in the New Jerusalem with pure gold that beautifully reflects light so can see Holy God everywhere along with righteous people. Humanly wonder if my body will shine like the human body of Jesus shown on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Also noticed @NeutralZone scripture snippet links for JW.org with Matthew 13:42 being the last half of one sentence (so ignored relevant context).
@NeutralZone July 4 If you want to proceed by answering the questions in my opening post, feel free to do so.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 5 Biblical blindness ? If you would like clarification for any of my answers posted on July 4, please feel free to do so. All five Discussion questions posted by @NeutralZone on June 8 have my answers embedded in my July 4 comments, albeit without question #. For example, three Bible passages: Matthew 13, Luke 15-16, & Ezekiel 18 (using chapter numbers that were added to Holy Scripture in the early 13th Century).
@NeutralZone July 14 I asked for three verses of scriptures and you posted a wall of text. Who do you think has the time to read all of that?
Puzzling for @NeutralZone to post five discussion questions with request for explanations, but who does not have time to 🙏 Prayfully ask our Holy God to open eyes followed by reading four Bible Chapters Matthew 13, Luke 15-16, & Ezekiel 18
Years ago my learning to Read the Bible for All Its Worth had ongoing valuable lesson: Every word has context in a sentence. Every sentence has context in a paragraph. Every paragraph has context in a larger unit. Most interpretation issues go away when appropriate context is considered.
Hebrew Scripture scrolls do NOT have chapter and verse numbers so finding a sentence requires knowledge of surrounding context. Also Greek manuscripts for the New Testament do NOT have chapter and verse numbering.
@NeutralZone July 14 Whenever people respond with a wall of text, like you have been doing, it indicates they are not interested in having a meaningful discussion.
For me, 🙏 prayerfully pondering four Bible chapters helped my appreciation of parables spoken to public crowds with private explanations to disciples and Pharisees spoken in ❤️ Love along with reminding me to keep 🙏 praying: Lord, please help me to ❤️ love You with all of my heart, all of my mind, all of my soul, & all of my strength so I can worship You 🙏 My desire is doing Holy God's will in Holy God's way in Holy God's time (includes loving my neighbor as myself).
To me when a wicked human repents from sin and turns to truly Love ❤️ our Holy Lord God with everything, the forgiveness from Holy Lord God comes with cleansing from unrighteouseness along with immense Rejoicing 😍
To me, Holy Heaven has Holy Lord God with all creatures choosing to truly Love ❤️ Holy Lord God ❤️ (beyond my imagination & words to describe)
Personally have no desire for anyone to experience eternity away from ❤️ Holy Lord God ❤️ where weeping & gnashing of teeth in the fiery furnance distract from the real pain of lacking ❤️ Holy Lord God ❤️
Keep Smiling 😍
