Physical Kingdom Problems
Comments
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@reformed said:
God sends lies? Did you just say God lies? And no, you are still reading into the text. Satan has not been bound. If that were true, why does Jesus tell us to pray to keep us from the evil one if he were going to be bound by the time Jesus' ministry was over? That makes no sense.
“Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)
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@Dave_L said:
“Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)
“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)
Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact we have not seen Satan bound, and what about praying that we are delivered from the evil one (Satan)?
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@reformed said:
Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact we have not seen Satan bound, and what about praying that we are delivered from the evil one (Satan)?
Satan is perfectly bound by the gospel and that is all Revelation requires. Nations = fulfillment of Abraham's promise. When he is loosed, he will attack the kingdom with lies, siphoning off all but the truly born again. (happening now).
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@Dave_L said:
Satan is perfectly bound by the gospel and that is all Revelation requires. Nations = fulfillment of Abraham's promise. When he is loosed, he will attack the kingdom with lies, siphoning off all but the truly born again. (happening now).
No that is not all that Revelation requires. Revelation requires that he is bound and SEALED OFF for 1,000 years. He has not been sealed off. He still deceives. What about the 1,000 years?
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Dave, if you say you are presently in all the Kingdom there is ever going to be for you, I believe you. If you say you do not expect to enter a future kingdom of God, sadly, I believe you. The point to our argument is that there is a lot to gain by having more than this and the Bible explains it well enough.
Why would you have the Bride stay asleep at a time like this?
Post edited by GaoLu on -
Dave,
Help me to understand your position on the matters below:- Do you subscribe to the "Amillennialism" teachings? If you do, concisely, what is it's understanding?
- Is it biblical?
- What texts give support?
- Will the church go through a time of tribulation BEFORE or AFTER the return of Christ.
- If BEFORE-- where will the believers go?
- If AFTERWARD -- where will the believers go?
- Do you believe heaven to be a real place?
- Is heaven a spiritual place?
Thanks for your consideration. CM
PS. Others are at liberty to answer the questions, if interested. CM
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@C_M_ said:
Dave,
Help me to understand your position on the matters below:- Do you subscribe to the "Amillennialism" teachings? If you do, concisely, what is it's understanding?
- Is it biblical?
- What texts give support?
- Will the church go through a time of tribulation BEFORE or AFTER the return of Christ.
- If BEFORE-- where will the believers go?
- If AFTERWARD -- where will the believers go?
- Do you believe heaven to be a real place?
- Is heaven a spiritual place?
Thanks for your consideration. CM
PS. Others are at liberty to answer the questions, if interested. CM
Good questions @C_M_ I'm interested to see the answers that will follow.
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@C_M_ said:
Dave,
Help me to understand your position on the matters below:- Do you subscribe to the "Amillennialism" teachings? If you do, concisely, what is it's understanding?
- Is it biblical?
- What texts give support?
- Will the church go through a time of tribulation BEFORE or AFTER the return of Christ.
- If BEFORE-- where will the believers go?
- If AFTERWARD -- where will the believers go?
- Do you believe heaven to be a real place?
- Is heaven a spiritual place?
Thanks for your consideration. CM
PS. Others are at liberty to answer the questions, if interested. CM
Thanks for your interest in my end times position.
I hold most of the Amillennial views. So if you study Amillennialism, you can gain more insight than what I can present here.
I wouldn't hold to the position if I didn't believe it to be closest to what scripture teaches.
Jesus and eventually the disciples were Amillennial. They never encouraged belief in a physical kingdom in their words or writings. The kingdom was always spiritual and present as it is now.
The great tribulation Jesus spoke of happened in 70 AD. Josephus will confirm this is the worst event in human history, not in numbers of casualties, but in horrors and suffering.
We remain in tribulation until Christ returns.
Heaven is spiritual as is the kingdom of Heaven, aka the kingdom of God.
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@GaoLu said:
1. Dave, if you say you are presently in all the Kingdom there is ever going to be for you, I believe you. If you say you do not expect to enter a future kingdom of God, sadly, I believe you. The point to our argument is that there is a lot to gain by having more than this and the Bible explains it well enough.- Why would you have the Bride stay asleep at a time like this?
Look at it this way. God rules the universe and the earth is his foot stool. Jesus is God. So he already does what people ignore and want him to do in a future kingdom lasting a measly 1000 years wracked with sin and death. Which is impossible if you consider flesh and blood cannot inherit it.
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@reformed said:
No that is not all that Revelation requires. Revelation requires that he is bound and SEALED OFF for 1,000 years. He has not been sealed off. He still deceives. What about the 1,000 years?
All is true and has been the case since Jesus first preached the gospel of the kingdom. If you are truly "Reformed", you should know that "nations" = the elect throughout the world. And the gospel binds Satan from keeping them from Christ.
The angel = Greek for messenger
the chain = the message (gospel) The gospel sent to all nations keeps Satan from deceiving the nations.
the 1000 years = Satan bound. The saints rule over him. the 1000 years end = Satan loosed.
Note the 1000 years are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end and he is loosed.
Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the nations deceived and the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.
“Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)
So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.
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@reformed said:
Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact we have not seen Satan bound, and what about praying that we are delivered from the evil one (Satan)?
You are expecting more than what scripture allows for.
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It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.
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@reformed said:
It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.
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@Dave_L said:
I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.
Hardly
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Your reaction and lack of scriptural support for your position only bolsters my position.
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@Dave_L said:
Your reaction and lack of scriptural support for your position only bolsters my position.
You keep touting a lack of Scriptural support, yet I have repeatedly given such support. However, when I ask you for support you distract and deflect. So no, your position has not been bolstered at all.
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@reformed said:
You keep touting a lack of Scriptural support, yet I have repeatedly given such support. However, when I ask you for support you distract and deflect. So no, your position has not been bolstered at all.
If you believe in a 7 year tribulation, prove it with direct scriptural support saying so. Or, do the same if you believe in a pre-trib Rapture. Or any direct quotes supporting a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks.....
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@Dave_L said:
If you believe in a 7 year tribulation, prove it with direct scriptural support saying so. Or, do the same if you believe in a pre-trib Rapture. Or any direct quotes supporting a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks.....
Off topic and once again, when I pin you to a corner on a topic you immediately shift to something else. Distract and Deflect Dave. DDD
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@reformed said:
Off topic and once again, when I pin you to a corner on a topic you immediately shift to something else. Distract and Deflect Dave. DDD
You are the one without scriptural support for your claims. I need not shift anything. I'm trying to draw you out and make you prove what you say from scripture.
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When Christians are snatched away and only liberals and doubters are left, what will happen then?
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@GaoLu said:
When Christians are snatched away and only liberals and doubters are left, what will happen then?It's the end of the world. And the beginning of the new heavens and earth where neither conservatives or liberals exist.
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It's quite amusing to read the various fantasies interpreted into the records in the Book of Revelation ... in reality, I find it rather sad to see the inability and/or unwillingness to actually read the text and adhere to what it says. But then, this is what happens when people ignorantly disregard the use of figures of speech, disregard context and overall scope not only of that book but remote context and overall scope of Scripture as well. The various posts also provide samples of how seemingly logical conclusions end up contradicting other truths in Scripture because, even though the logic is proper, the conclusions reached are false because the premise is already false.
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@Wolfgang said:
It's quite amusing to read the various fantasies interpreted into the records in the Book of Revelation ... in reality, I find it rather sad to see the inability and/or unwillingness to actually read the text and adhere to what it says. But then, this is what happens when people ignorantly disregard the use of figures of speech, disregard context and overall scope not only of that book but remote context and overall scope of Scripture as well. The various posts also provide samples of how seemingly logical conclusions end up contradicting other truths in Scripture because, even though the logic is proper, the conclusions reached are false because the premise is already false.You mean like people who disgregard the fact that Jesus is God?
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@Wolfgang said:
It's quite amusing to read the various fantasies interpreted into the records in the Book of Revelation ... in reality, I find it rather sad to see the inability and/or unwillingness to actually read the text and adhere to what it says. But then, this is what happens when people ignorantly disregard the use of figures of speech, disregard context and overall scope not only of that book but remote context and overall scope of Scripture as well. The various posts also provide samples of how seemingly logical conclusions end up contradicting other truths in Scripture because, even though the logic is proper, the conclusions reached are false because the premise is already false.One cannot understand Revelation without defining the terms. and Jesus does this for us in most cases. So if you drag old Jewish ideas into Revelation, you will miss its meaning completely.
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@reformed said:
You mean like people who disgregard the fact that Jesus is God?in this case, not really ... on the other hand, the contents of the book rather plainly teaches - for example - that Jesus is the lamb of God. and therefore obviously not God Himself. Would you like to add "God, the Lamb" to a "Quadrupinity" Godhead of four rather than a "Trinity" Godhead of three ?
If people would accurately read, believe and adhere to what they read in the opening verses in Rev 1 and the closing verses in Rev 2, they would recognize a fundamental truth that provides the key to a correct understanding of the contents of the book.
Since they seemingly don't, the correct understanding of the contents of the book will remain unattainable to them. -
@Dave_L said:
One cannot understand Revelation without defining the terms. and Jesus does this for us in most cases. So if you drag old Jewish ideas into Revelation, you will miss its meaning completely.
As I mentioned previously, not adhering to proper context, overall scope, the use of literal versus figurative language, etc. produces an incorrect understanding.
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@Wolfgang said:
As I mentioned previously, not adhering to proper context, overall scope, the use of literal versus figurative language, etc. produces an incorrect understanding.
It's all up for grabs. Revelation is nothing more than a Rorschach Test for religious crackpots unless held in strict compliance with Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom and Paul's teaching on Israel.
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Rorschach Test for religious crackpots
I thought that was what CD was for...?
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Brethren,
We will never get a correct understanding of any of the Kingdoms (e.g. Kingdom of God: "The Kingdom of Grace" or The Kingdom of Glory ) until we start reading these titles in context, language tenses, and in light of God's promises. Our understanding of the make-up of man at creation and the state of man at death. Lastly, one must put on the table of discussion, one's method of biblical interpretation: Pre, Post or Amillennial view and the determine Pre, or post- tribulation position. Without these things laid out, you are sure to, at least, go in circles and at best, tie yourself into knots.Firstly, this doesn't have to be, if we would come to the Bible as an inspired Book, where the writer wrote under Divine Inspiration, using the language of his past. This will require much prayer for illumination by the Holy Spirit.
Secondly, if we come to the Bible or this topic with a teachable spirit. That is, the chance we may learn something new.
Thirdly, as for understanding the millennium (1,000 years) of Revelation 20, we must accept that it is Christ's message (to the seven (7) churches of Asia Minor and subsequent believers) of things to shortly come to pass.
- The Book of Revelation is a prophetic book-- uses dreams, visions, symbols, words, references, and allusions from the OT.
- This book looks backward and forward, sometimes, in the same chapter. One must be attentive to verb tense, as alluded to in this thread earlier.
- The book of Revelation can be understood! Its very name says so. It is the revelation of Jesus.
- To say its message or out-take is tantamount to a Rorschach Test, in my view, a form of blasphemy. God didn't inspire John to write Revelation to be used as some kind of psychological test or to be used as spiritual "inkblots" to analyzed man. God made man and knows "personality characteristics and emotional functioning".
This, demeaning of the Book of Revelation needs to Stop! What knowledge, power, authority or intellect of any man to belittle God's self-disclosure to humanity? To do so and continue such, is an insult to God, questions His intelligent, method and sovereignty. I hope this reminder would prove to be helpful and set a clearer path for us moving forward. Let's do better. CM
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@C_M_ said:
Firstly, this doesn't have to be, if we would come to the Bible as an inspired Book, where the writer wrote under Divine Inspiration, using the language of his past. This will require much prayer for illumination by the Holy Spirit.
While prayer and God being at work in believers is important to note, a knowledge of language matters requires studying the language, as illumination of what words and expressions mean does not just "fall from heaven by the Holy Spirit".
Secondly, if we come to the Bible or this topic with a teachable spirit. That is, the chance we may learn something new.
Indeed ... unfortunately many are confined to previously learned theology against which they compare and judge what they read and or learn, only accepting what matches their theology.
Thirdly, as for understanding the millennium (1,000 years) of Revelation 20, we must accept that it is Christ's message (to the seven (7) churches of Asia Minor and subsequent believers) of things to shortly come to pass.
This point provides and excellent example of the application or non-application of the above two principles mentioned ... All read in several places the very clear and plain message that the things revealed in the book are a "message of things to shortly come to pass", and then claim boldly after almost 2000 years (2 millenniums) have already come and gone that the things in this message are still future because they have not come to pass according to what they imagine how it would come to pass (sometimes they claim their ideas to be "illumination by the Holy Spirit").
Wouldn't it be better and in line with believing that what is stated in the book to claim that these things did in fact come to pass but perhaps one doesn't know how it came to pass and doesn't quite understand it ? Instead, people claim they know how it must come to pass, and since it hasn't come to pass how they thing it should come to pass, they insist on it being yet future ... when really they should simply admit that their ideas about how it should come to pass are wrong and what the text reveals is true and the events did come to pass shortly after the time these things were revealed?
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