Physical Kingdom Problems

Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130
edited October 15 in General

Physical Kingdom Problems

Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan wreaks havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.

Post edited by Dave_L on
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Comments

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:
    Physical Kingdom Problems

    Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

    This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

    Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

    Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan wreaks havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

    So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.

    Then what is the 1,000 year reign in Scripture talking about? Also, it is not the time of the end that nobody knows it is the hour of the return of Christ. Obviously if he is reigning for 1,000 years that would have already happened. Next argument...

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Physical Kingdom Problems

    Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

    This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

    Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

    Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan wreaks havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

    So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.

    Then what is the 1,000 year reign in Scripture talking about? Also, it is not the time of the end that nobody knows it is the hour of the return of Christ. Obviously if he is reigning for 1,000 years that would have already happened. Next argument...

    1000 years is the binding of Satan. It is not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom (still here) when the 1000 years end.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Physical Kingdom Problems

    Jesus’ kingdom is spiritual. And this is a problem for the physical kingdom views of a Millennium. Where these say the kingdom will come before the end of the world and remain for 1000 years. Jesus says it is already here. (Luke 11:20). Paul says flesh and blood cannot inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus says it comes without observation (Luke 17:20). And John says only those born-again can enter it (John 3:5).

    This means, if a millennial kingdom were to come after the resurrection and rapture, the only place scripture allows for it (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17), only saints in glorified bodies would populate it. (Since flesh and blood cannot inherit it). So when the 1000 years would end with Satan loosed, only myriads of glorified saints would avail themselves to form Gog and Magog and attack the rest of the glorified saints.

    Another problem would be fitting a millennium into this present evil world after Jesus already said his kingdom is not of this world. And a Millennium cannot be in the world to come. Because it is a perfect world, not having the sin and conflicts an earthly millennium has. Infants dying a hundred years old and cursed sinners a hundred years old and so on. And beside these two worlds or ages, scripture mentions no other.

    Also, with a 1000-year millennium on earth, anyone would know the time of the end. And this is something only the Father knows. Some might argue an indefinite period of time remains after the 1000 years while Satan wreaks havoc on the church. But if this were the case, you must cram it all into earth’s last day. “For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be eliminated is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:22–26)

    So people would still know the time of the end. Because Paul says Jesus must reign until he destroys the last enemy – death. And this happens at the end of the world.

    Then what is the 1,000 year reign in Scripture talking about? Also, it is not the time of the end that nobody knows it is the hour of the return of Christ. Obviously if he is reigning for 1,000 years that would have already happened. Next argument...

    1000 years is the binding of Satan. It is not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom (still here) when the 1000 years end.

    Revelation 20 specifically says Christ reigns during that time. You can't escape that. And, since you ignored it, I guess you realize that the argument about time and hour wasn't applicable here?

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,440

    Step back and take a closer look at Rev 20 and the Millennium

    First of all, John 5:28-29 --Jesus says that everyone who is in the grave will eventually be raised:

    • Some to the resurrection of life and
    • Some to the resurrection of condemnation.

    1 Thess. 4:16-17 -- Paul describes four [cf. Zechariah 14:3-10] classes of people on the earth when Jesus comes:

    • The righteous living= will be caught up with the “righteous dead” to meet Jesus in the air.
    • The righteous dead = will be raised to life
    • The wicked living
    • The wicked dead.

    2 Thess. 2:8 --- At Jesus' coming, the wicked living will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus’ coming.

    Please note that the word millennium comes from the Latin word "mille", meaning "thousand," and "annus", meaning "year." Thus millennium is a period of one thousand years. The word millennium itself does not appear in the Bible, but Revelation 20 describes a thousand year time period that begins when Jesus returns the second time.

    Secondly, Rev 20:1-6, in context is broken down in two places:

    In Heaven .... & ... On Earth.
    1. Rev 20:1-3 -vs- Rev 20:4-6

    • Events on EARTH -vs- Events in HEAVEN
    • At the beginning -vs- Same time period
    • During the 1,000 yrs -vs- During the 1,000 yrs

    Rev 20:1-6, show a sift from Earth to Heaven in verse 4

    First Resurrection at Second Coming (Rev. 20:1-3) ---

    1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    These verses show Satan is bound to this earth during the millennium-or thousand-year period-following Jesus' second coming.

    Jeremiah 4:23-27

    1. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
      and the heavens, and they had no light.
    2. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
    3. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
    4. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
    5. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

    The earth is desolate and uninhabited DURING the millennium.

    1 Cor. 6:2-3 ...

    1. Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
    2. Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    THIRDLY--

    Rev. 20: 3-13 --- At the end of the millennium, Satan is loosed for a short time, and the wicked are raised to life to receive their final judgment.

    Rev. 20: 11-12 -- The wicked stand before God's judgment throne and receive His judgment. “Every knee bow…” cf. Philippians 2:10, 11.

    Rev. 20: 9-10 & 14 --- Fire comes down from heaven and destroys forever Satan, his angels, and all the wicked.

    So, in short:

    • The last days ------1,000 yrs ----- ETERNITY
    1. Jesus Returns --- Righteous in Heaven --- Christ, Saints & City Descends
    2. Righteous dead Raised--Wicked Remain Dead---Wicked Dead Raised
    3. Living saints caught up --Satan bound by the chain of circumstances--Satan is loosed
    4. Wicked Slain ----------- Earth At Rest ---------- --- Last Judgment
    5. Satan Bound -- ------- ---- ------ ---- ---- Satan and sinners destroyed
    6. Earth Desolated ------- ---- ------ ---- ---- Earth cleansed and renewed

    I hope this layout will help all get a handle on Rev. 20. Do you have a better model? I don't profess to have all the answers and do understand that many questions remain to be answered. CM

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @C_M_ said:

    Step back and take a closer look at Rev 20 and the Millennium

    First of all, John 5:28-29 --Jesus says that everyone who is in the grave will eventually be raised:

    • Some to the resurrection of life and
    • Some to the resurrection of condemnation.

    1 Thess. 4:16-17 -- Paul describes four [cf. Zechariah 14:3-10] classes of people on the earth when Jesus comes:

    • The righteous living= will be caught up with the “righteous dead” to meet Jesus in the air.
    • The righteous dead = will be raised to life
    • The wicked living
    • The wicked dead.

    2 Thess. 2:8 --- At Jesus' coming, the wicked living will be destroyed by the brightness of Jesus’ coming.

    Please note that the word millennium comes from the Latin word "mille", meaning "thousand," and "annus", meaning "year." Thus millennium is a period of one thousand years. The word millennium itself does not appear in the Bible, but Revelation 20 describes a thousand year time period that begins when Jesus returns the second time.

    Secondly, Rev 20:1-6, in context is broken down in two places:

    In Heaven .... & ... On Earth.
    1. Rev 20:1-3 -vs- Rev 20:4-6

    • Events on EARTH -vs- Events in HEAVEN
    • At the beginning -vs- Same time period
    • During the 1,000 yrs -vs- During the 1,000 yrs

    Rev 20:1-6, show a sift from Earth to Heaven in verse 4

    First Resurrection at Second Coming (Rev. 20:1-3) ---

    1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    These verses show Satan is bound to this earth during the millennium-or thousand-year period-following Jesus' second coming.

    Jeremiah 4:23-27

    1. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
      and the heavens, and they had no light.
    2. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
    3. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
    4. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
    5. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

    The earth is desolate and uninhabited DURING the millennium.

    1 Cor. 6:2-3 ...

    1. Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
    2. Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    THIRDLY--

    Rev. 20: 3-13 --- At the end of the millennium, Satan is loosed for a short time, and the wicked are raised to life to receive their final judgment.

    Rev. 20: 11-12 -- The wicked stand before God's judgment throne and receive His judgment. “Every knee bow…” cf. Philippians 2:10, 11.

    Rev. 20: 9-10 & 14 --- Fire comes down from heaven and destroys forever Satan, his angels, and all the wicked.

    So, in short:

    • The last days ------1,000 yrs ----- ETERNITY
    1. Jesus Returns --- Righteous in Heaven --- Christ, Saints & City Descends
    2. Righteous dead Raised--Wicked Remain Dead---Wicked Dead Raised
    3. Living saints caught up --Satan bound by the chain of circumstances--Satan is loosed
    4. Wicked Slain ----------- Earth At Rest ---------- --- Last Judgment
    5. Satan Bound -- ------- ---- ------ ---- ---- Satan and sinners destroyed
    6. Earth Desolated ------- ---- ------ ---- ---- Earth cleansed and renewed

    I hope this layout will help all get a handle on Rev. 20. Do you have a better model? I don't profess to have all the answers and do understand that many questions remain to be answered. CM

    Thanks CM. That's a full platter. But we cannot understand Revelation until we understand what Jesus says about the Kingdom. It is spiritual and not physical. Also he says it is not of this world. Which rules out a physical Millennium taking place after his return. Also note he says the Kingdom is already here, but only the born-again can see it. So this alone obliterates the Physical 1000 year Millennium concept.

    But what happens on the last day is Christ's return. Followed by the resurrection of the Just. Followed by the Rapture. Followed by the resurrection and judgement of the wicked along with the wicked then living. Followed by the conflagration of the universe. Followed by Jesus creating the new heavens and earth where heaven and earth become one forever.

    This is a thumbnail sketch to be fully understood after it happens as is the case of most prophecies.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,440

    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187
    edited October 16

    @reformed said
    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom.

    You are making a big fat claim ... but where does Rev 20 talk about a physical kingdom??
    Furthermore, one should note that Rev 20 does not speak about a 1000 year reign of Christ ... but rather Rev 20:4 mentions "... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
    Who are these "they" who are said to have "lived and reigned" with Christ?

    Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual?

    I would refer you to Jesus' words as recorded in John 18.

    John 18:36
    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Please note, the statement does not stop at "is not of this world", but rather Jesus continues with "if my kingdom were of this world ..." and thereby certainly excludes any possibility that his kingdom would be of this world, in other words, that it would be a physical earthly kingdom.

    Post edited by Wolfgang on
  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said
    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom.

    You are making a big fat claim ... but where does Rev 20 talk about a physical kingdom??

    The whole first part of the chapter. They are sitting on thrones, the dead are raised and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. That is a physical kingdom.

    Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual?

    I would refer you to Jesus' words as recorded in John 18.

    John 18:36
    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Notice he does not say that there is no physical kingdom in this verse, he DEFINITELY doesn't say his kingdom is exclusively spiriutal.

    Please note, the statement does not stop at "is not of this world", but rather Jesus continues with "if my kingdom were of this world ..." and thereby certainly excludes any possibility that his kingdom would be of this world, in other words, that it would be a physical earthly kingdom.

    No it doesn't. At that time, Jesus is speaking of his kingdom at present, it was not of this world. Remember, the words of Revelation are future tense, not present or past tense.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187

    @reformed said:

    You are making a big fat claim ... but where does Rev 20 talk about a physical kingdom??

    The whole first part of the chapter. They are sitting on thrones, the dead are raised and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. That is a physical kingdom.

    Sorry ... you are only repeating your claim, but you are not providing evidence that it is about a physical earthly kingdom. The use of the word "thrones" does NOT necessarily mean "earthly, physical thrones" ... or do you want to claim that God in heaven is seated on a physical throne ?

    I would refer you to Jesus' words as recorded in John 18.

    John 18:36
    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Notice he does not say that there is no physical kingdom in this verse, he DEFINITELY doesn't say his kingdom is exclusively spiriutal.

    Since a physical kingdom would be a kingdom of this world, and since Jesus clearly and most definitely and repeatedly stated that his kingdom was not of this world, it is clear that it is not a physical earthly kingdom.
    Your statement makes no sense and disregards Jesus' very own words.

    Please note, the statement does not stop at "is not of this world", but rather Jesus continues with "if my kingdom were of this world ..." and thereby certainly excludes any possibility that his kingdom would be of this world, in other words, that it would be a physical earthly kingdom.

    No it doesn't.

    How come? Are you trying to tell us that Jesus has several different kingdoms over which he reigns? To how many kingdoms was Jesus referring when he stated that his kingdom was not of this world and therefore not a physical kingdom?

    At that time, Jesus is speaking of his kingdom at present, it was not of this world.

    Another unfounded claim ... had Jesus already ascended to his throne and was reigning over his kingdom at the then present time when he spoke those words?

    Remember, the words of Revelation are future tense, not present or past tense.

    the words of Revelation "are future tense, not present or past tense" ??? Sorry, I must have had really terrible English teachers in particular in the lessons about tenses during grammar lessons ...
    Here is verse from Rev 20:4 .... could you tell me which words are future tense?

    Rev 20:4 (AV)
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    According to my knowledge of English, I read a lot of past tense verbs in that verse on not one that is future tense ....

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    You are making a big fat claim ... but where does Rev 20 talk about a physical kingdom??

    The whole first part of the chapter. They are sitting on thrones, the dead are raised and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. That is a physical kingdom.

    Sorry ... you are only repeating your claim, but you are not providing evidence that it is about a physical earthly kingdom. The use of the word "thrones" does NOT necessarily mean "earthly, physical thrones" ... or do you want to claim that God in heaven is seated on a physical throne ?

    Yes, I believe Heaven is a physical place.

    I would refer you to Jesus' words as recorded in John 18.

    John 18:36
    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Notice he does not say that there is no physical kingdom in this verse, he DEFINITELY doesn't say his kingdom is exclusively spiriutal.

    Since a physical kingdom would be a kingdom of this world, and since Jesus clearly and most definitely and repeatedly stated that his kingdom was not of this world, it is clear that it is not a physical earthly kingdom.

    Why does a physical kingdom first have to be of this world? Second, at that time, no, Christ's kingdom was not in this world. That doesn't mean it can never be in this world.

    Your statement makes no sense and disregards Jesus' very own words.

    Please note, the statement does not stop at "is not of this world", but rather Jesus continues with "if my kingdom were of this world ..." and thereby certainly excludes any possibility that his kingdom would be of this world, in other words, that it would be a physical earthly kingdom.

    No it doesn't.

    How come? Are you trying to tell us that Jesus has several different kingdoms over which he reigns? To how many kingdoms was Jesus referring when he stated that his kingdom was not of this world and therefore not a physical kingdom?

    You are reading into the text. He never says that his kingdom doesn't grow or change. Quite the opposite actually. There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

    At that time, Jesus is speaking of his kingdom at present, it was not of this world.

    Another unfounded claim ... had Jesus already ascended to his throne and was reigning over his kingdom at the then present time when he spoke those words?

    He already ruled his kingdom and left his throne to come to earth. Now granted, you don't believe this because of your Christology so it would be pointless for us to debate this piont becasue we will never agree on the nature of Christ.

    Remember, the words of Revelation are future tense, not present or past tense.

    the words of Revelation "are future tense, not present or past tense" ??? Sorry, I must have had really terrible English teachers in particular in the lessons about tenses during grammar lessons ...
    Here is verse from Rev 20:4 .... could you tell me which words are future tense?

    Rev 20:4 (AV)
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    According to my knowledge of English, I read a lot of past tense verbs in that verse on not one that is future tense ....

    Oh Wolfgang, of COURSE the words are past tense becuase John is relaying a VISION OF THE FUTURE.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130
    edited October 16

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

    Again, if we first learn what Jesus and the NT writers say, Revelation will not go beyond that. All that the Father gave to Jesus will come to him from among the nations through the gospel that binds Satan in respect to them. But God sends lies and strong delusion to the rest. So the gospel binds Satan "from deceiving the nations" in a qualified sense. But God still keeps unbelievers (the reprobate) under his wrath.

    Post edited by Dave_L on
  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885
    edited October 16

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

    Again, if we first learn what Jesus and the NT writers say, Revelation will not go beyond that. All that the Father gave to Jesus will come to him from among the nations through the gospel that binds him in respect to them. But God sends lies and strong delusion to the rest. So the gospel binds Satan "from deceiving the nations" in a qualified sense. But God still keeps unbelievers (the reprobate) under his wrath.

    God sends lies? Did you just say God lies? And no, you are still reading into the text. Satan has not been bound. If that were true, why does Jesus tell us to pray to keep us from the evil one if he were going to be bound by the time Jesus' ministry was over? That makes no sense.

    Post edited by reformed on
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