Can the trinity be trusted as a Biblical Teaching?
Can the trinity be trusted as a Biblical Teaching?
The scriptures state what is necessary in order to be saved. “For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9)
Sadly, there are almost 2.8 Billion people on earth who believe in a false gospel of the trinity. It never admits that “Jesus is Lord” nor does it make the claim that God raised Jesus up from the dead.
It promotes a false gospel of salvation and refuses to acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)
If you looked up the trinity doctrine, you would have to close the Bible and look into apostate books that have the man-made doctrine from the Superfine Apostles that reject Jesus is ‘the Christ the son of the living God.’ (Matthew 16:16) The three persons have no names. It is a generic formula borrowed and copied from pagan religions. Jesus Christ is completely absent from the trinity doctrine.
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Thankful for Google transliterates יהוה in English as Jehovah. Visit JW.org about whom Jesus Christ calls the Only True God in (John 17:3)
Comments
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You define trinity in a way that probably no one believes. In that sense, you are right.
If you define trinity the way the bible describes it, then, of course, it makes sense to most people.
The issue isn't so much the word "trinity" as it is the divinity of Christ--that is, Jesus is God.
Being anti-Christ doesn't have a tolerable ring about it, but being anti-Trinity is apparently more palatable to some.
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You define trinity in a way that probably no one believes. In that sense, you are right.
If you define trinity the way the bible describes it, then, of course, it makes sense to most people.
So then please tell us how the Bible defines the holy trinity ... From your comment, there seem to be different definitions of the trinity. Thus it would be good to have your definitive Bible definition of it in order to understand what is being talked about.
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There's is no prhase that states, 'Jesus is God". But I can show you the phrase 'Jehovah is God'.
Know that Jehovah is God. He is the one who made us, and we belong to him. We are his people and the sheep of his pasture. Psalm 100:3
other transaltions of Psalm 100:3
Anyways the trinity doctrine doesn't beleive or teach the Deity of Christ. If you were to look up the word deity you will find deity as a feminine noun. Since Jesus was Begotten as being 'brought forth' with labor pangs.
Strong's Concordance
theotés: deity
Original Word: θεότης, ητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: theotés
Phonetic Spelling: (theh-ot'-ace)
Definition: deity
Usage: deity, Godhead.
Another example: I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star. (Rev 22:16)
Strong's Concordance
rhiza: a root
Original Word: ῥίζα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: rhiza
Phonetic Spelling: (hrid'-zah)
Definition: a root
Usage: a root, shoot, source; that which comes from the root, a descendent.
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I wouldn't mind at all heaving meaningful discussion about trinity, especially surrounding nuances of understanding, but I observe that this subject has been hacked to smithereens on this forum. If I held a smidgin of hope that any of you had any actual interest in God rather than religion, I would be more enticed.
OK. This much.
Trinitarians sometimes say, "God in three persons." Antitrinitarians leap on that and claim simple rules of physics: God cannot simultaneously be Bill, Wolfgang, and Rondo. Aye! True! God obviously isn't three people. In fact, "person" in the sense of a physical human is a generally poor description of God. Words like "essence" are foggy in many minds, so that doesn't help. Just know this. God is three persons in the sense that we discuss Him three ways,
- His being as a father.
- His being as spirit, which is also the Father, and an existence distinct from physics. How is Spirit different from "Father?" Only that Father describes a relationship and being other than mere spirit. The point is that there is an actual being. Father captures that better than Spirit for skeptics. We don't have 2 people going on here, yet we might say we have two persons in the sense that we have a real independent being, with a real independent spirit.
- His being as son. Son is like Father in the sense of relationship. God the Father with Spirit formed a real, independent man Jesus, and God existed wholly in that man, as a man with human limitations, but not limited to the man and his limitations. God also exists as Spirit and Father, so is more than just God in that man Jesus. When Jesus was one with the Father, He was one in the sense of God being one. Union of being or existence. When a human person is one with the Father, He is one in the sense of union of heart, not being. Christ was both of the above. We non-God humans are one in the sense of the latter alone.
Father, Son, Spirit. Three beings in the senses above; or three persons as sone like to say), but one God. You can pick apart wording if you want, I didn't spend all day writing it. But that description is an explanation of the concept some call trinity and clarifies how the man Jesus is God.
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@Truth posted:
Father, Son, Spirit. Three beings in the senses above; or three persons as sone like to say), but one God. You can pick apart wording if you want, I didn't spend all day writing it. But that description is an explanation of the concept some call trinity and clarifies how the man Jesus is God.
A SINCERE COMMENT: Thank you for the summary of your understanding of how Jesus is God. Though I disagree with your views - principally because I don't think the biblical text writ large supports them - I think your summary is quite well done and reflective of genuine faith. Thank you.
By the end of this calendar year, the Bible study group I lead will complete what will turn out to a 110 session, 2-1/2 year-long exploration of the New Testament witness as to whether Jesus is God. As part of our NT review before we move to the OT, I think I will offer unedited your summary to the group and ask them to employ their discoveries from our journey to-date to assess the summary. If you're interested, I will post or PM to you the results of the group's review and any significant comments or questions group members offered. If you want to add to your summary a list of at least some of the NT texts most prominently upon which you basis your views, I will certainly add those to what I provide to the group.
Again, thanks for your summary.
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If you read the Bible intending to believe what it says, you will arrive at truth.
Post edited by Truth on -
Father, Son, Spirit. Three beings in the senses above; or three persons as sone like to say), but one God. You can pick apart wording if you want, I didn't spend all day writing it. But that description is an explanation of the concept some call trinity and clarifies how the man Jesus is God.
Sounds much like the traditional definitions of the trinity I once held and have often heard. But, you had mentioned tha Scripture / Bible defines the trinity ... and I see nothing about that in your post.
Sure, the Bible mentions the true God being a Father, it mentions that the true God is spirit ... incidentally it does NOT mention that God is a son. The fact that there are mentions about different functions and qualities of God still do not make God a trinity nor define what trinity is or means. God is the Creator, God is also the Almighty, God is light, God is love ... (but note: God is NOT a human). These are plain simple facts mentioned in Scripture .... would you expand the trinity to more than "tri-..." since these are more than three?
If you read the Bible intending to believe what it says, you will arrive at truth.
Let's read the Bible and inzend to believe what it does in fact say ... and thus arrive at truth. I am looking forward to a Bible based reply to the Biblical points mentioned in my post,
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I am not hung up on the word trinity, but I am hung up on the concept of the being and attributes of God.
God is not like humans either in personhood or attributes such as love or light. Rather, humans are in some ways like God with such attributes and beingness. Humans are not like God in being creators (of things such as a universe), and humans are not almighty.
Tri has value because Christians over time have almost universally agreed that the Bible describes beingness of God in three ways: Father, son. Spirit. Other descriptors such as those you mention above are either adjectives or acts he has done--but not his being. Trinity is one way people have attempted to discuss that. For those reasons, I would not expand trinity to more than tri.
Regarding "God the son," those exact words, of course are not found in the Bible. I don't think you are really demanding that exact phrase; but rather, asking for the concept. The Bible is well-known for that exact concept being its central theme and focus. I don't think that arguing that point here will have value. While a person could be deceived, I think that deceit happens but is uncommon; to miss the fundamental fact of the deity of Christ is to miss one of the most prominent points of the whole Bible. To engage argument on the deity of Christ would be as silly as to argue the existence of the sun when we are standing in its brilliance.
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@Truth .... and your Scripture / Bible support for your trinity concept would be ? Where is Bible support that God is the being of "Son"? We know God is called and spoken of as being "Father"; we also know God is spoken of as being "Holy", "the Holy One" (e.g. Jer 51:5); ....
YOU claim the Bible speaks or declares God as being "Son" ... where does Scripture say so?
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Recent threads are filled with such Scripture. Are you pretending you haven't read those? Any Google search reveals plenty of lists. You claim to be a teacher of the Bible--so you know the arguments. The problem isn't lack of Scripture, but rejection of Scripture. Your rejection is my focus here. More passages won't stop your rejection. Jesus Himself came and told the people He was God. Some believed. Some killed Him for that. Like people rejected him then (even if they liked his teachings), some reject him now (even though they like his teachings).
You are a classic of the above. So is Bill--though, unlike you, he comes across as evil and gloats in that. Rondo may simply be duped. CM is a flightless bird with purple and green feathers that defies taxonomic definition. Keep Smiling is an humble man of God, a treasure trove of truth. Hear that man.
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@BroRando November 8 There's is no prhase that states, 'Jesus is God".
Scripture also has no phrase "Jesus is NOT God".
What did Jesus command the man set free from "Legion" of demons to say & do in Luke 8:26-39 & Mark 5:1-20 ?
Luke 8:26-39 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of אלהים as God in LXX) => And they sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is opposite Galilee. And as he got out on the land, a certain man from the town met him who had demons and for a considerable time had not worn clothes and did not live in a house, but among the tombs. And when he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before him, and said with a loud voice, “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High אלהים God? I beg you, do not torment me!” For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For it had seized him many times, and he was bound with chains and shackles and was guarded, and breaking the bonds he would be driven by the demon into the deserted places.) So Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered into him. And they began imploring him that he would not order them to depart into the abyss. Now there was a large herd of pigs feeding there on the hill, and they implored him that he would permit them to enter into those pigs. And he permitted them. So the demons came out of the man and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed headlong down the steep slope into the lake and were drowned. And when the herdsmen saw what had happened, they fled and reported it in the town and in the countryside. So they went out to see what had happened, and they came to Jesus and found the man from whom the demons had gone out sitting there clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus, and they were afraid. And those who had seen it reported to them how the man who had been demon-possessed had been healed. And all the people of the surrounding region of the Gerasenes asked him to depart from them, because they had been seized with great fear. So he got into the boat and returned. And the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging him to stay with him, but he sent him away, saying, “Return to your home and tell all that אלהים God has done for you.” And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole town all that Jesus had done for him.
Mark 5:1-20 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God in LXX) => And they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gerasenes. And as he was getting out of the boat, immediately from the tombs a man with an unclean spirit went to meet him, who lived among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him any longer, not even with a chain, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the shackles had been shattered. And no one was strong enough to subdue him. And during every night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was crying out and cutting himself with stones. And when he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before him. And crying out with a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High אלהים God? I implore you by אלהים God, do not torment me!” (For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!”) And he was asking him “What is your name?” And he said to him, “My name is Legion, because we are many.” And he was imploring him many times that he would not send them out of the region. Now a large herd of pigs was there at the hill feeding, and they implored him, saying, “Send us to the pigs so that we may enter into them.” And he permitted them. And the unclean spirits came out and entered into the pigs, and the herd—about two thousand—rushed headlong down the steep slope into the sea and were drowned in the sea. And their herdsmen fled and reported it in the town and in the countryside, and they came to see what it was that had happened. And they came to Jesus and saw the demon-possessed man sitting there clothed and in his right mind—the one who had had the legion—and they were afraid. And those who had seen it described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man, and about the pigs. And they began to urge him to depart from their region. And as he was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed began to implore him that he could go with him. And he did not permit him, but said to him, “Go to your home to your people and tell them all that the יהוה Lord has done for you, and that he has had mercy on you.” And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him, and they were all astonished.
@BroRando November 8 But I can show you the phrase 'Jehovah is God'.
Psalm 100:1-5 LEB => Shout in triumph to יהוה Yahweh, all the earth. Serve יהוה Yahweh with joy; come into his presence with exultation. Know that יהוה Yahweh, he is אלהים God; he made us and we are his. We are his people and the sheep of his pasture. Enter his gates with thanksgiving, his courts with praise. Give thanks to him; bless his name. For יהוה Yahweh is good; his loyal love is forever, and his faithfulness is from generation to generation.
The man set free from "Legion" of demons described Jesus as Lord יהוה Yahweh אלהים God in the Decapolis (ten cities).
Jewish Rabbi Jesus would NOT describe Himself as אלהים God as Jesus is one voice in plural אלהים God. Spiritual quality inside the man Jesus is fully אלהים God (John 1:1) while אלהים God is more than The Word (Jesus) voice. One unique plural אלהים God has two Lord יהוה Yahweh voices: The Will (Father) & The Word (Jesus). Unified completeness of אלהים God includes Breath The Holy.
Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB => “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’
Proverbs 30:1-4 LEB => The words of Agur, son of Yakeh, the oracle. Thus says the man to Ithiel, to Ithiel, and Ucal: Certainly I am more stupid than a man, and the understanding of humankind is not for me. And I have not learned wisdom, nor will I know knowledge of the Holy One. Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of his hand? Who has wrapped water in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his child? For surely you know.
@Truth November 8 If you read the Bible intending to believe what it says, you will arrive at truth.
Eight verses in Psalms 119:17-24 has the first word beginning with the third letter of the Hebrew alphabet, Gimel ג LEB => ג Deal bountifully with your servant, that I may live and heed your word. ג Uncover my eyes, that I may look at wonderful things from your law. ג I am a sojourner on the earth; do not hide your commands from me. ג My soul is crushed with longing for your ordinances at all times. ג You rebuke the arrogant, the accursed, who stray from your commands. ג Remove from me scorn and contempt, for I have kept your testimonies. ג Even though princes sit and speak against me, your servant meditates on your statutes. ג Your testimonies are my delight, my counselors.
Every human chooses what to love most, which becomes the basis for personal belief & actions => words & deeds. Hence reading the bible using human belief basis "sees" truth that accords with existing belief. Choosing to ❤️ Love Holy God first with all heart, mind, soul, strength allows Psalm 119:18 to be prayed 🙏 "Uncover my eyes, that I may look at wonderful things from your law." 🙏 so Holy God provides daily bread from Word of God with understanding appropriate for that day's journey. Fasting from earthly food can aid spiritual food insight & ingestion.
If believe a human organization is the only correct communication channel between that person and God, then personal belief filter "sees" truth that aligns with organization. Simple test for prophet of Holy God is 100% accuracy. Watch Tower Society fails prophecy testing so that human organization should NOT be trusted. Thankful for @C Mc posting 26 failed predictions with page citations in JW sources on October 30, 2021
Searching for mediator in Bible finds seven verses. Two mediator results are in Galatians 3:1-29 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of אלהים as God in LXX) => O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as having been crucified? I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now trying to be made complete by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things for nothing—if indeed also it was for nothing? Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Just as Abraham believed אלהים God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, then understand that the ones who have faith, these are sons of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that אלהים God would justify the Gentiles by faith, proclaimed the good news in advance to Abraham: “In you all the nations will be blessed.” So then, the ones who have faith are blessed together with Abraham who believed. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse, for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things that are written in the book of the law to do them.” Now it is clear that no one is justified in the sight of אלהים God by the law, because “the one who is righteous will live by faith.” But the law is not from faith, but “the one who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brothers, I am speaking according to a human perspective. Nevertheless, when the covenant of a man has been ratified, no one declares it invalid or adds additional provisions to it. Now to Abraham and to his descendant the promises were spoken. It does not say, “and to descendants,” as concerning many, but as concerning one, “and to your descendant,” who is Christ. Now I am saying this: the law, that came after four hundred and thirty years, does not revoke a covenant previously ratified by אלהים God, in order to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is from the law, it is no longer from the promise, but אלהים God graciously gave it to Abraham through the promise. Why then the law? It was added on account of transgressions, until the descendant should come to whom it had been promised, having been ordered through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now the mediator is not for one, but אלהים God is one. Therefore is the law opposed to the promises of אלהים God? May it never be! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, certainly righteousness would have been from the law. But the scripture imprisoned all under sin, in order that the promise could be given by faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe. But before faith came, we were detained under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. So then, the law became our guardian until Christ, in order that we could be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. For you are all sons of אלהים God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are descendants of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.
Watch Tower Society has their own organizational law. No scripture declares human organization being correct communication channel to God.
Humans can choose to shipwreck their faith in יהוה Lord Jesus Christ so they no longer believe Jesus is יהוה Lord אלהים God & Father is יהוה Lord אלהים God (two voices in One plural unique אלהים God). Third voice in אלהים God is Breath The Holy. Unified Tri voices are One Holy God.
Another mediator is in 1 Timothy 1:18-2:8 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of אלהים as God in LXX) => I am setting before you this instruction, Timothy my child, in accordance with the prophecies spoken long ago about you, in order that by them you may fight the good fight, having faith and a good conscience, which some, because they have rejected these, have suffered shipwreck concerning their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, in order that they may be taught not to blaspheme. Therefore, I urge first of all that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgiving be made on behalf of all people, on behalf of kings and all those who are in authority, in order that we may live a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable before אלהים God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one אלהים God and one mediator between אלהים God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time, for which I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am speaking the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger and dispute.
🙏 Praying for God's Holy Healing in all life domains: heart (emotional), mind (mental), soul (social), strength (physical), & worship (spiritual) along with God's mercy to be poured out plus justice done 🙏 while weeping 😭 with those who are weeping 😭& 😍 Rejoicing with those Rejoicing 😍
Thankful God chooses who, what, where, & when, to heal ❤️😍 praying for many, especially Jesus is יהוה Lord אלהים God believers & human enemies, so some receive God's Holy Healing ❤️(for spiritual enemies, can include Breath The Holy opening eyes to truly see so human can choose what to ❤️ Love most). Look for Love, אלהים God's Love ❤️ in 1 John 4:1-21 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of אלהים as God in LXX) => Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from אלהים God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of אלהים God: every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from אלהים God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from אלהים God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from אלהים God, little children, and have conquered them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world and the world listens to them. We are from אלהים God. The one who knows אלהים God listens to us; whoever is not from אלהים God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit. Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from אלהים God, and everyone who loves has been fathered by אלהים God and knows אלהים God. The one who does not love does not know אלהים God, because אלהים God is love. By this the love of אלהים God is revealed in us: that אלהים God sent his one and only Son into the world in order that we may live through him. In this is love: not that we have loved אלהים God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Dear friends, if אלהים God loved us in this way, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen אלהים God at any time. If we love one another, אלהים God resides in us and his love is perfected in us. By this we know that we reside in him and he in us: that he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of אלהים God, אלהים God resides in him and he in אלהים God. And we have come to know and have believed the love that אלהים God has in us. אלהים God is love, and the one who resides in love resides in אלהים God, and אלהים God resides in him. By this love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment, because just as that one is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear includes punishment, and the one who is afraid has not been perfected in love. We love, because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love אלהים God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar, for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen is not able to love אלהים God whom he has not seen. And this is the commandment we have from him: that the one who loves אלהים God should love his brother also.
Two more mediator results are in Hebrews 8:1-10:39 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God in LXX) => Now this is the main point in what has been said: we have a high priest such as this, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the יהוה Lord set up, not man. For every high priest is appointed in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices; therefore it was necessary for this one also to have something that he offers. Now if he were on earth, he would not even be a priest, because there are those who offer the gifts according to the law, who serve a sketch and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned when he was about to complete the tabernacle, for he says, “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.” But now he has attained a more excellent ministry, by as much as he is also mediator of a better covenant which has been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, occasion would not have been sought for a second. For in finding fault with them he says, “Behold, days are coming, says the יהוה Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took hold of them by my hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I disregarded them, says the יהוה Lord. For this is the covenant that I will decree with the house of Israel after those days, says the יהוה Lord: I am putting my laws in their minds and I will write them on their hearts, and I will be their אלהים God and they will be my people. And they will not teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the יהוה Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings, and I will not remember their sins any longer.” In calling it new, he has declared the former to be old. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is near to disappearing. Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and the earthly sanctuary. For a tent was prepared, the first one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the presentation of the loaves, which is called the holy place. And after the second curtain was a tent called the holy of holies, containing the golden incense altar and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which were a golden jar containing the manna and the rod of Aaron that budded and the tablets of the covenant. And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat, about which it is not now possible to speak in detail. Now these things having been prepared in this way, the priests enter into the first tent continually as they accomplish their service, but only the high priest enters into the second tent once a year, not without blood, which he offers on behalf of himself and the sins of the people committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was making this clear, that the way into the holy place was not yet revealed, while the first tent was still in existence, which was a symbol for the present time, in which both the gifts and sacrifices which were offered were not able to perfect the worshiper with respect to the conscience, concerning instead only food and drink and different washings, regulations of outward things imposed until the time of setting things right. But Christ has arrived as a high priest of the good things to come. Through the greater and more perfect tent not made by hands, that is, not of this creation, and not by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once for all into the most holy place, obtaining eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled sanctify them for the ritual purity of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living אלהים God? And because of this, he is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions committed during the first covenant, those who are the called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a will, it is a necessity for the death of the one who made the will to be established. For a will is in force concerning those who are dead, since it is never in force when the one who made the will is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was ratified without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that אלהים God has commanded for you.” And likewise he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the utensils of service with the blood. Indeed, nearly everything is purified with blood according to the law, and apart from the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the sketches of the things in heaven to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves to be purified with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of אלהים God on our behalf, and not in order that he can offer himself many times, as the high priest enters into the sanctuary year by year with blood not his own, since it would have been necessary for him to suffer many times from the foundation of the world, but now he has appeared once at the end of the ages for the removal of sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment, thus also Christ, having been offered once in order to bear the sins of many, will appear for the second time without reference to sin to those who eagerly await him for salvation. For the law, possessing a shadow of the good things that are about to come, not the form of things itself, is never able year by year by means of the same sacrifices which they offer without interruption to make perfect those who draw near. For otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the ones who worship, having been purified once and for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in them there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when he came into the world, he said, “Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but a body you prepared for me; you did not delight in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sins. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— in the roll of the book it is written about me— to do your will, O אלהים God.’ When he says above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin you did not want, nor did you delight in,” which are offered according to the law, then he has said, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second, by which will we are made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands every day serving and offering the same sacrifices many times, which are never able to take away sins. But this one, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of אלהים God, from now on waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will decree for them after those days, says the יהוה Lord: I am putting my laws on their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” He also says, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will never remember again.” Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence for the entrance into the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he inaugurated for us through the curtain, that is, his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of אלהים God, let us approach with a true heart in the full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering, for the one who promised is faithful. And let us think about how to stir one another up to love and good works, not abandoning our meeting together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging each other, and by so much more as you see the day drawing near. For if we keep on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that is about to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of אלהים God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace? For we know the one who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” and again, “The יהוה Lord will judge his people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living אלהים God. But remember the former days in which, after you were enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed both to insults and to afflictions, and sometimes becoming sharers with those who were treated in this way. For you both sympathized with the prisoners and put up with the seizure of your belongings with joy because you knew that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, in order that after you have done the will of אלהים God, you may receive what was promised. For yet “a very, very little while, and the one who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul is not well pleased with him.” But we are not among those who shrink back to destruction, but among those who have faith to the preservation of our souls.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Once trintarians are exposed that there is no scripture that states...God is made up of "three seprate persons, they will often dump the trinity and jump on the Modalist bandwagon. They don't even mind rejecting the trinity teaching of three seprate persons to try to justify that Jesus is God which is an anti-trinitarin view. Both hertic dogmas do what they aim to do and that is to deny Jesus is the Chirst, the Son of the lving God. (Matthew 16:16)
Ces gens ont perdu la tete.
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Colossians 2:9 says of Christ, “in him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form.”
We should not think of God as a “pie” cut into three pieces, each piece representing a Person. This would make each Person less than fully God and thus not God at all. Rather, “the being of each Person is equal to the whole being of God” (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 1994, page 255)
Trinity can be an awkward word because it is extrabiblical and a term used to soundly refute those who deny the deity of Christ. It works, though many other terms could equally be used such as "Shema-monotheism." Same thing. It's just a term to describe a critical biblical concept, perhaps the most important concept in your life.
Is this a contradiction in your understanding: “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.”
Are there two times going on, or one? Are they distinct from each other? How?
Time exists wholly and completely in each way, and is the same time, even though each time is distinctly different from the other.
The example above is not perfect because it is time not God, but it is analogous and is not modalism. However, modalism seems to be established intrinsically as a bad way to describe God. That may be both true and unfortunate because understanding God as one being in more than one mode may be helpful (for you theologian and philosopher types, you understand that this is not modalism). God does have more than one form of existence. He isn't divided into three pieces but is three distinctions of being in one being. Call that three persons from God's point of view. Some of you may find that difficult when you don't even believe both the physical and spiritual exist. Yet you are two distinctions in one being, a body and a spirit. That is two in one. You are not a father in the way God is and your body and spirit are not God like the body and spirit of Jesus is.
As Norman Geisler says, God is one what but three who's.
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@BroRando, What is plural in one unique God ?
Hebrew nouns have three spelling forms: singular, dual (e.g. ears, eyes), & plural. Hebrew plural is a minimum of three.
Deuteronomy 6:4 LEB => “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique.
Hebrew word translated "our God" is אלהינו e-lo-HAY-nu that is plural אלהים e-lo-HEEM with plural 1st person pronoun suffix: Our or We
Hebrew letter direction is different than English & Greek. Hebrew is read from right to left while Greek & English are read left to right. Hebrew pronunciation tends to emphasis the last or next to last syllable (bit different than English). Deuteronomy 6:4 pronounciation in The Israel Bible (published by Israel 365) has a-do-NAI (Lord) substitute for יהוה (showing Jewish convention, whose usage is more than 2,222 years old)
sh'-MA yis-ra-AYL a-do-NAI e-lo-HAY-nu a-do-NAI e-KHAD
שמע sh'-MA - to hear & obey - verb, Qal, imperative, 2nd person, masculine (Imperative is volitional command)
ישראל yis-ra-AYL - Israel - noun, proper, singular, absolute (proper noun names a particular or specific object)
יהוה a-do-NAI - Yahweh - noun, proper, masculine, singular, absolute
אלהינו e-lo-HAY-nu - God Our/We - noun, common, masculine, plural, construct & pronoun, suffixed, 1st person, plural
יהוה a-do-NAI - Yahweh - noun, proper, masculine, singular, absolute
אחד e-KHAD - one/only/unique - numeral, cardinal, singular, absolute
Hebrew Qal (simple) verb stem is the least expressive. Other verbal stems express more about verbal action: complete, incomplete, volitional.
Exodus 3:14 LEB => And אלהים God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ”
English verbs have time focus: past, present, future. Hebrew verbs have kind of action focus. Hence, "I was/am/will be that I was/am/will be" used 1st person to identify יהוה Lord אלהים God that shifted to 3rd person יהוה whose meaning is expressed in Revelation 4:8 LEB => And the four living creatures, each one of them, had six wings apiece, full of eyes around and inside, and they do not have rest day and night, saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the יהוה Lord אלהים God All-Powerful, the one who was and the one who is and the one who is coming!”
Logos Bible Search for <Lemma = lbs/he/אֶחָד> in the Lexham Hebrew Bible includes compound "one" expressions:
Genesis 1:5 LEB => And אלהים God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the אחד first day.
Genesis 1:9 LEB => And אלהים God said, “Let the waters under heaven be gathered to אחד one place, and let the dry ground appear.” And it was so.
Genesis 2:24 LEB => Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cling to his wife, and they shall be as אחד one flesh.
Genesis 3:22 LEB => And יהוה Yahweh אלהים God said, “Look—the man has become as אחד one of us, to know good and evil. What if he stretches out his hand and takes also from the tree of life and eats, and lives forever?”
Genesis 11:1 LEB => Now the whole earth had אחד one language and the אחד same words.
Hebrew Strongs # 3173 יחיד yachid means only one. Logos Bible Search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יָחִיד> in Lexham Hebrew Bible finds three יחיד yachid (only) occurrences in Torah, The Books of Moses:
Genesis 22:1-19 LEB => And it happened that after these things, אלהים God tested Abraham. And he said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” And he said, “Take your son, your יחיד only child, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains where I will tell you.” And Abraham rose up early in the morning and saddled his donkey. And he took two of his servants with him, and Isaac his son. And he chopped wood for a burnt offering. And he got up and went to the place which אלהים God had told him. On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and he saw the place at a distance. And Abraham said to his servants, “You stay here with the donkey, and I and the boy will go up there. We will worship, then we will return to you.” And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and placed it on Isaac his son. And he took the fire in his hand and the knife, and the two of them went together. And Isaac said to Abraham his father, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” And he said, “Here is the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” And Abraham said, “אלהים God will provide the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went together. And they came to the place that אלהים God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood. Then he bound Isaac his son and placed him on the altar atop the wood. And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. And the angel of Yahweh called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham! Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” And he said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the boy; do not do anything to him. For now I know that you are one who fears אלהים God, since you have not withheld your son, your יחיד only child, from me.” And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked. And behold, a ram was caught in the thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place “יהוה Yahweh will provide,” for which reason it is said today, “on the mountain of יהוה Yahweh it shall be provided.” And the angel of יהוה Yahweh called to Abraham a second time from heaven. And he said, “I swear by myself, declares יהוה Yahweh, that because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your יחיד only child, that I will certainly bless you and greatly multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is by the shore of the sea. And your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies. All the nations of the earth will be blessed through your offspring, because you have listened to my voice.” And Abraham returned to his servants, and they got up and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived in Beersheba.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Exodus 3:14 LEB => And אלהים God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ”
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, now, which of your three plural God-voices was speaking as "I" to Moses? Iz seems very clear from the actual text that only one person/voice was communicating to Moses. Or was the God-trio perhaps speaking as a "choir" ?
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Thank you for your contributions to this and the other threads around the forums on the Deity of Christ. Don't stop including other voices and references in the conversation, albeit to @Wolfgang 's dismay. He seems to be allergic to others bringing clarity to the subject matter. Although what you shared is often long, I am curious to know if those in opposition (active posters in CD) understand God's attributes, essence, nature, and power God? Are they comprehending the materials you are sharing? Given that their heads seem to be so deep in the sands of defining God beyond His revelation, one wonders. It appears the Bible and humility play no role in understanding who God is.
The onslaught JW's dump from its website on CD to re-enforce the blasphemous claims against Christ. It's hard for the average seeker of truth to escape from being slimed with this anti-christ soot. Keep up the good work, and keep smiling for Jesus. CM
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Who was the voice speaking to Moses? Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, he saw that the thornbush was on fire, and yet the thornbush was not consumed. (Exodus 3:2)
Wether you call Jesus Christ the word of God or voice of Jehovah God, it still is the same person. "Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God as he was walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day, and the man and his wife hid from the face of Jehovah God among the trees of the garden." (Genesis 3:8) Just like thw word of God appeared to Moses and Abraham, the voice of Jehovah God also appreaed to Adam and Eve. Christ is the angel of Jehovah that you keep denying.
God's Personal Messenger (Angel) can even pardon transgressions. "I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the Way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Pay attention to Him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because My Name is in Him." (Exodus 23:20-21)
Psalm 32:1
Happy is the one whose transgression is pardoned, whose SIN is Covered.
Proverbs 29:16
When the wicked increase, transgression increases, But the righteous will see their downfall.
Job 13:23
What are my errors and sins? Reveal to me my transgression and my sin.
Psalm 51:3
For I am well-aware of my transgressions, And my sin is always before me.
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@C Mc posted:
I am curious to know if those in opposition (active posters in CD) understand God's attributes, essence, nature, and power God? Are they comprehending the materials you are sharing? Given that their heads seem to be so deep in the sands of defining God beyond His revelation, one wonders. It appears the Bible and humility play no role in understanding who God is.
Assuming that you're referring to those "in opposition" to @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus' (and perhaps your) Christology, I respond to your questions this way:
- I understand God's attributes, essence, nature, and power to a significant degree - principally but not exclusively through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus - but not perfectly. That's not surprising, of course, given that the God we're trying to understand says, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not my ways," (Isaiah 55.8)
- I comprehend the materials @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus shares.
- I don't know what you mean by heads "so deep in the sands of defining God beyond His revelation." What are "the sands of defining God beyond His revelation"?
- The Bible and humility play important roles in my understanding of who God is. I am always aware that I "see in a mirror dimly" (1 Cor 13.12).
FWIW, I never feel "slimed" by pasted content in these threads, whether the one executing the pastes is @BroRando, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, @Wolfgang, you, or even me.
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Don't stop including other voices and references in the conversation, albeit to @Wolfgang 's dismay. He seems to be allergic to others bringing clarity to the subject matter.
I am not allergic to anyone bringing clarity to a matter ... Unfortunately, some hardly ever provide their own thoughts and understanding of scriptures but instead are hiding behind commentaries and theologians' articles that even contradict straight forward biblical text.
Although what you shared is often long, I am curious to know if those in opposition (active posters in CD) understand God's attributes, essence, nature, and power God?
Be curious about what you know and think you know (or just quote from others without really knowing?) about God and His attributes, essence, nature and power. Do you think you know more and I know less, because I admit being limited as a human being to human understanding and reading in Scripture what God has made known about Himself in terms of human language?
Are they comprehending the materials you are sharing?
I do to some degree ... and have often responded in detail (!) to his own arguments.
Given that their heads seem to be so deep in the sands of defining God beyond His revelation, one wonders.
Do you really not realize that the Trinity theology folks are the ones -- by their own admission !! -- who are stuck beyond what God has revealed about Himself ?? They know that their "Trinity Belief" ideas are not found straight forward in the Biblical text, but rather "explain it by their supposed super-human divine mystery understanding".
It appears the Bible and humility play no role in understanding who God is.
Exactly ... namely, for Trinity adherents and proponents !!
I know by personal experience as I was an adamant believer and preacher of the Holy Trinity, until I decided to be humble to actual Biblical text, which is when I began noticing the errors and huge "theological house of cards" prevalent in vast circles who deemed themselves Christian.
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If we write our own thoughts then we wont use Scripture. If we use Scripture, we are hiding behind it. If we quote a Bible scholar we are hiding behind him. Gotcha, no matter what you do!
What if we let people share what they want without demanding they fit within the box we have made for ourselves?
@Bill_Coley Don't confuse your Google search for actual knowledge.
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@Truth posted:
@Bill_Coley Don't confuse your Google search for actual knowledge.
A Google search is a process, a means to an end. Knowledge is an outcome, a collection of facts, data, information, and awareness that results from processes such as, but not limited to, Google searches. I can't actually imagine my confusing a process with its outcomes.
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I read some where recently @Truth said:
"Bill you are an incredible fact source".
@Truth said:
@Bill_Coley Don't confuse your Google search for actual knowledge.
Is this a verification of sincerity? CM
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What is your affiliation with Bill?
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Your silence is deafening.
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Nobody has even offered up a trinity doctrine to proclaim that Jehovah God is made up of three distinct persons and that Mary is the 'Mother of this God'. I guess they had triplets who are a 3 in 1 God?
- If one distinct of the trinity is God, then that's One God
- If the second distinct person is also God, that;s Two Gods.
- If the third distinct person is also God, that's three Gods.
- If Mary is the Mother of theses three Gods, that makes four Gods
- But then we Keep Smiling who claims the trinity itself is the One Being, that makes five Gods.
- You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, Exodus 20:5
Nobody was able to show a scripture stating 'Jesus is God" But I showed a scripture that states, 'Jehovah is God".
Nobody is able to show a scripture stating 'Jesus is truly God' But I can show a scripture that states, "But Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God and the eternal King. Because of his indignation the earth will quake, And no nations will endure his denunciation." (Jermiah 10:10)
At the sight of Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him, and with a loud voice, he said: “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.” Luke 8:28
And look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” Matthew 8:29
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Your Pope, the Watchtower, has blinded you and prevented you from encountering the real Jehovah. Put away deceitful writings; both truth and vision may begin to seep in.
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Question: Can the trinity be trusted as a Biblical Teaching?
Answer: No ... (1) it is not biblical teaching, (2) only superhumans / gods who have "more than mere human understanding" claim to know what actually is or means.
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@BroRando Instead of letting a man set free follow Jesus, what did Jesus command the man to do and say in Mark 5:19 & Luke 8:39 ?
Mark 5:1-20 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God in LXX) => And they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gerasenes. And as he was getting out of the boat, immediately from the tombs a man with an unclean spirit went to meet him, who lived among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him any longer, not even with a chain, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the shackles had been shattered. And no one was strong enough to subdue him. And during every night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was crying out and cutting himself with stones. And when he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before him. And crying out with a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High אלהים God? I implore you by אלהים God, do not torment me!” (For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!”) And he was asking him “What is your name?” And he said to him, “My name is Legion, because we are many.” And he was imploring him many times that he would not send them out of the region. Now a large herd of pigs was there at the hill feeding, and they implored him, saying, “Send us to the pigs so that we may enter into them.” And he permitted them. And the unclean spirits came out and entered into the pigs, and the herd—about two thousand—rushed headlong down the steep slope into the sea and were drowned in the sea. And their herdsmen fled and reported it in the town and in the countryside, and they came to see what it was that had happened. And they came to Jesus and saw the demon-possessed man sitting there clothed and in his right mind—the one who had had the legion—and they were afraid. And those who had seen it described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man, and about the pigs. And they began to urge him to depart from their region. And as he was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed began to implore him that he could go with him. And he did not permit him, but said to him, “Go to your home to your people and tell them all that the יהוה Lord has done for you, and that he has had mercy on you.” And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him, and they were all astonished.
Luke 8:26-39 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of אלהים as God in LXX) => And they sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is opposite Galilee. And as he got out on the land, a certain man from the town met him who had demons and for a considerable time had not worn clothes and did not live in a house, but among the tombs. And when he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before him, and said with a loud voice, “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High אלהים God? I beg you, do not torment me!” For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For it had seized him many times, and he was bound with chains and shackles and was guarded, and breaking the bonds he would be driven by the demon into the deserted places.) So Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered into him. And they began imploring him that he would not order them to depart into the abyss. Now there was a large herd of pigs feeding there on the hill, and they implored him that he would permit them to enter into those pigs. And he permitted them. So the demons came out of the man and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed headlong down the steep slope into the lake and were drowned. And when the herdsmen saw what had happened, they fled and reported it in the town and in the countryside. So they went out to see what had happened, and they came to Jesus and found the man from whom the demons had gone out sitting there clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus, and they were afraid. And those who had seen it reported to them how the man who had been demon-possessed had been healed. And all the people of the surrounding region of the Gerasenes asked him to depart from them, because they had been seized with great fear. So he got into the boat and returned. And the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging him to stay with him, but he sent him away, saying, “Return to your home and tell all that אלהים God has done for you.” And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole town all that Jesus had done for him.
Exodus 3:14 LEB => And אלהים God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ”
@Wolfgang November 10 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, now, which of your three plural God-voices was speaking as "I" to Moses? Iz seems very clear from the actual text that only one person/voice was communicating to Moses. Or was the God-trio perhaps speaking as a "choir" ?
Exodus 3:1-18 LEB => And Moses was a shepherd with the flock of Jethro, his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the west of the desert, and he came to the mountain of אלהים God, to Horeb. And the angel of יהוה Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” And יהוה Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and אלהים God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” And he said, “I am the אלהים God of your father, the אלהים God of Abraham, the אלהים God of Isaac, and the אלהים God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at אלהים God. And יהוה Yahweh said, “Surely I have seen the misery of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry of distress because of their oppressors, for I know their sufferings. And I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from this land to a good and wide land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. And now, look, the cry of distress of the Israelites has come to me, and also I see the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. And now come, and I will send you to Pharaoh, and you must bring my people, the Israelites, out from Egypt.” But Moses said to אלהים God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and that I should bring the Israelites out from Egypt?” And he said, “Because I am with you, and this will be the sign for you that I myself have sent you: When you bring the people out from Egypt, you will serve אלהים God on this mountain.” But Moses said to אלהים God, “Look, if I go to the Israelites and I say to them, ‘The אלהים God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ then what shall I say to them?” And אלהים God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ” And אלהים God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘יהוה Yahweh, the אלהים God of your ancestors, the אלהים God of Abraham, the אלהים God of Isaac, and the אלהים God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’ Go and gather the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘יהוה Yahweh, the אלהים God of your ancestors, appeared to me, the אלהים God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, “I have carefully attended to you and what has been done to you in Egypt.” And I said, “I will bring you up from the misery of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, to a land flowing with milk and honey.” ’ And they will listen to your voice, and you will go, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt, and you will say to him, ‘יהוה Yahweh, the אלהים God of the Hebrews has met with us, and now let us please go on a journey of three days into the desert, and let us sacrifice to יהוה Yahweh our אלהים God.’
Three names in Deuteronomy 6:4 יהוה אלהינו יהוה (We => אלהים has 1st person plural pronoun suffix) shows completeness of One unique God.
A child wants something so asks first parent/guardian, who says "No". Child goes to second parent/guardian to ask, but does not tell about "No" already received. If second parent/guardian says "Yes", then subsequent parental/guardian discussion can be interesting. Contrast is One unique God so receiving "No" from one voice followed by asking another voice finds out all of God already knows previous "No" response with rationale for "No" response. A child can manipulate human parents/guardians, but One unique plural e-lo-HEEM אלהים God cannot be manipulated.
Humanly not know if אלהים God speaking sounded different than יהוה Yahweh speaking (text does not say). Seven God voice sound possibilities: יהוה Will alone, יהוה Word alone, Breath The Holy alone, יהוה Will & יהוה Word together, יהוה Will & Breath The Holy together, יהוה Word & Breath The Holy together, all three voices together. Wonder if seven voice sound combinations relate to seven being the number of perfection.
From Israelite people reaction to hearing אלהים God speaking in Exodus 20 (Holy terrified), humanly anticipate all three voices spake together in thunderous Holy Harmony. Some scripture passages specify individual voice speaking: e.g. Acts 5:1-11, 2 Peter 1:16-21
@BroRando November 10 Who was the voice speaking to Moses? ... (Exodus 3:2)
What is the range of meaning for angel (Hebrew Strong's # 4397) ?
ANGEL
mal˒ak (מַלְאָךְ, 4397), “messenger; angel.” In Ugaritic, Arabic, and Ethiopic, the verb le˒ak means “to send.” Even though le˒ak does not exist in the Hebrew Old Testament, it is possible to recognize its etymological relationship to mal˒ak. In addition, the Old Testament uses the word “message” in Hag. 1:13; this word incorporates the meaning of the root le˒ak, “to send.” Another noun form of the root is mela˒kah, “work,” which appears 167 times. The name Malachi—literally, “my messenger”—is based on the noun mal˒ak.
The noun mal˒ak appears 213 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. Its frequency is especially great in the historical books, where it usually means “messenger”: Judges (31 times), 2 Kings (20 times), 1 Samuel (19 times), and 2 Samuel (18 times). The prophetical works are very moderate in their usage of mal˒ak, with the outstanding exception of the Book of Zechariah, where the angel of the Lord communicates God’s message to Zechariah. For example: “Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked to me, ‘What are these, my lord?’ And the angel answered and said unto me, ‘These are the four spirits [pl. of mal˒ak] of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth’ ” (Zech. 6:4–5).
The word mal˒ak denotes someone sent over a great distance by an individual (Gen. 32:3) or by a community (Num. 21:21), in order to communicate a message. Often several messengers are sent together: “And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers [pl. of mal˒ak] and said unto them, Go, inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease” (2 Kings 1:2). The introductory formula of the message borne by the mal˒ak often contains the phrase “Thus says …,” or “This is what … says,” signifying the authority of the messenger in giving the message of his master: “Thus saith Jephthah, Israel took not away the land of Moab, nor the land of the children of Ammon” (Judg. 11:15).
As a representative of a king, the mal˒ak might have performed the function of a diplomat. In 1 Kings 20:1ff., we read that Ben-hadad sent messengers with the terms of surrender: “He sent messengers to Ahab king of Israel into the city, and said unto him, Thus saith Benhadad …” (1 Kings 20:2).
These passages confirm the important place of the mal˒ak. Honor to the messenger signified honor to the sender, and the opposite was also true. David took personally the insult of Nabal (1 Sam. 25:14ff.); and when Hanun, king of Ammon, humiliated David’s servants (2 Sam. 10:4ff.), David was quick to dispatch his forces against the Ammonites.
God also sent messengers. First, there are the prophetic messengers: “And the Lord God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place: But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy” (2 Chron. 36:15–16). Haggai called himself “the messenger of the Lord,” mal˒ak Yahweh.
There were also angelic messengers. The English word angel is etymologically related to the Greek word angelos, whose translation is similar to the Hebrew: “messenger” or “angel.” The angel is a supernatural messenger of the Lord sent with a particular message. Two angels came to Lot at Sodom: “And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground …” (Gen. 19:1). The angels were also commissioned to protect God’s people: “For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways” (Ps. 91:11).
Third, and most significant, are the phrases mal˒ak Yahweh, “the angel of the Lord,” and mal˒ak ˒elohim, “the angel of God.” The phrase is always used in the singular. It denotes an angel who had mainly a saving and protective function: “For mine angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off” (Exod. 23:23). He might also bring about destruction: “And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the Lord stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces” (1 Chron. 21:16).
The relation between the Lord and the “angel of the Lord” is often so close that it is difficult to separate the two (Gen. 16:7ff.; 21:17ff.; 22:11ff.; 31:11ff.; Exod. 3:2ff.; Judg. 6:11ff.; 13:21f.). This identification has led some interpreters to conclude that the “angel of the Lord” was the pre-incarnate Christ.
In the Septuagint the word mal˒ak is usually translated by angelos and the phrase “angel of the Lord” by angelos kuriou. The English versions follow this twofold distinction by translating mal˒ak as simply “angel” or “messenger” (kjv, rsv, nasb, niv)
W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, and William White Jr., Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 4–5.
When was יהוה Word first sent by יהוה Will with a message ?
When יהוה Word took on human flesh to be born as יהוה Jesus (God with us), יהוה Will became יהוה Father (fulfilled Psalm 2 prophecy).
Keep Smiling 😊
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