Abortion: Choice, Rights, and Privacy

This thread is conceived for five (5) reasons:

  1. It is currently in the news and before the US Supreme Court.
  2. For fellow posters, in general, who want to discuss the topic decoupled from guns are invited to share in the topic of "abortion." This way, it will get a full hearing.
  3. To provide the proper setting, space, and opportunity for my fellow posters,  @Truth, a recent newcomer to CD.
  4. Since  @Truth  acknowledged thread boundaries, I want to give honor to you by starting this one.
  5.  @Truth  attempted to raise the topic in two other threads, which were not advantageous to the topic at hand. e.g.
    1. https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/19928/#Comment_19928

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The questions emulated from the Halloween thread. See below:

https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/19962/#Comment_19962

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Although the questions are generated in another thread, I would like to give my friend, an unencumbered chance to answer them and other questions. The special invitation to @Truth is, in nowhere, restricting any posters from accepting the question package and being heard on this topic of "abortion."

So,  @Truth, do me the honors and answer the questions below. If you accept the challenge, I trust you will produce more fire than "smoke." Let me duly remind you that the wider CD Community will note your rationales:

  1. Do you feel the need to impose, intrude, and control the lives of a woman (or women) that's not your wife (assuming you are married) who choose the option of a medical procedure in consultation with her doctor, husband, family, and faith counselor?
  2. Do you need to put your eyes in the womb of another woman (not your wife's), not know her medical history or current condition?
  3. Do you have an insatiable need to interfere in the marriage between a husband and a wife?
  4. Do you need to be conscious for millions of women and families in this country and worldwide to make a most personal and intimate decision for them?
  5. Do you need another man (not a relative) or a panel (primarily men) to interfere in a decision between you and your wife? e.g.
    1. Where, when, and how often to have sex?
    2. To use or not to use a condom?
    3. To use an IUD birth-control device?
    4. How many children or to have any at all?
    5. Rather or not, you should have a vasectomy?
    6. Whether your wife, in consultation with her doctor, can have a man or double mastectomy?
  6. Do you need the public to make laws to know if you or your wife can have any of the above?
  7. Do you have a burning desire to have a religious body, not of your faith, working through legislators to determine if your wife can have one of her cancerous ovaries removed?
  8. Do you need me to come into your home and decide against you, your doctor, and your pastor to have one of the above (# 5)?
  9. Do you need a group of strangers or me telling you what option is NOT AVAILABLE (abortion) to you if your wife or daughter were beaten and raped?
  10. Do you need to be denied a right and a privilege the current right allows?


@Truth, it would be helpful if you would answer these questions put to another recent new comer @byGeorge to CD:

  1. May I suggest you read or re-read this entire thread? Until then, consider these: 
  2. When is a baby, a baby? 
  3. Is a zygote a baby?
  4. Tell me lumber, nails, roofing paper, a poured concrete foundation, etc. Is this a house? 


Please be aware of other threads in CD on abortion:

@Truth, you seem to be yearning to have a discussion on abortion. Here is you opportunity? CM

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Comments

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @C Mc @C Mc said:

    Whether your wife, in consultation with her doctor, can have a man or double mastectomy?

    One Correction to # 5 ("f"):

    Whether your wife, in consultation with her doctor, can have a mastectomy (Total -- simple, Modified, or Radical)?

    @C Mc said:

    @Truth, you seem to be yearning to have a discussion on abortion. Here is you opportunity? CM

    Two Corrections (last sentence): You seem to be yearning to have a discussion on abortion. Here is your opportunity! CM 

    @C Mc said:

    Do you  to be denied a right and a privilege the current right allows?

    Three CORRECTIONS # 10:

    Do you NEED to be denied a right and a privilege the current LAW allows?

    I want to be clear on what I am asking. CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396

    God seems usually to allow rights and choices for all the above. He also sends people to Hell who choose satanic evil such as child sacrifice of abortion—even the deceived and liars who falsely declare themselves to be Christians.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @Truth,

    If you want to be heard, this is the time and place. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 3,162

    Despite the position of government, abortion is murder, period.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @reformed,

    The murder of what? "Despite the position of government..."

    1. When is a baby, a baby? 
    2. Is a zygote a baby? 
    3. Tell me lumber, nails, roofing paper, a poured concrete foundation, etc. Is this a house? 

    Please see the questions above:

    https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/987/abortion-choice-rights-and-privacy.

    I remain. CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396
    edited November 19

    Regardless of the answers to your questions, abortion is still murder.

    When a new human life is formed biologically, hormonal changes occur in the mother immediately. The mother usually "knows" that a human life is conceived within her. Unless a mother is utterly evil, the loss of a child in her womb is one of the most agonizing experiences a woman can have.

    Unless a man is utterly evil, his heart will also break in compassion with her for the loss of human life.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @reformed said:

    Conception and it is obvious you are ok with killing babies or you would not ask these questions. Monster.

    Thanks, @reformed, for responding to this thread with your unnecessary name-calling. After your hiatus, it's still unacceptable in these forums. However, if you try answering the questions proposed, you would see, you would be less inclined to call anyone a name. When you do so honestly, you would rightly concur, I am not so much of a "monster" after all. The challenge remains for anyone to answer the questions. Are you afraid we may be on the same page when it comes to freedom of choice?

     @reformed, asking two sets of "questions," you automatically assumed that I am "ok with killing babies"? Do you find your conclusion a bit judgmental and premature? Asking questions that make people uncomfortable because they must encounter their inner-self is evil or gives one the proclivity for "killing babies"?

    You and those in your concentric social circle must have struggled with the two sets of questions. I am sorry, it's a reality that confronts all married couples or single women of childbearing age with reasonable abilities, barring unforeseen accidents, complications, or hereditary manifestations. Let's not forget about women of childbearing (students or step-children) years who are mentally and physically challenged in foster-care, group, and nursing homes, who are many times the target of rape.

     @reformed, the core matter remains. When is a baby, a baby? It would help if you answered all the questions, and then we can exchange of substance. Do you have a house when you are building one? If you run out of money or stop building, do you have a house? How can one kill what is not? What is God's ability and knowledge is not ours.

    On this side of the return of Jesus, evil exists and befalls "good," "innocent," "vulnerable," and sometimes "Christian people. We have to deal with certain realities when they land on our doorsteps. Let's make it real. I hope I don't scare youth much.

     @reformed, suppose your wife or daughter (if you have one) was raped and the perpetrator is of a different race (the one you don't care to know or be around), would you want me telling you or her what to do? Would you like me and my other male friends to make laws to limit your options to handle the matter in family, with your spiritual director, doctor, and other family members? Is it right? Is it fair to you and the victim to overrule your joint family decision? Under what conditions would you accept my interference in this family matter?

    Even if you find the perpetrator and kill him, with your many guns, and skirt around the laws of the land (get off), you still have to deal with your violated loved one. Do you want me to tell you what you can't do? You may call me or this scenario "sick," but many people in the USA reality. There were 126, 430 "reported" rapes last year (2020), just in the United States of America.

    No, the scenario is not "sick"; not having all the tools or options available is sick. So, let's keep it real. Love and compassion have a role to play in addressing evil in this world. Let us not be so "heavily minded; we're no earthly good." CM

    PS.  @Truth @byGeorge @Wolfgang @BroRando @Bill_Coley, @Jan, and  @theMadJW  apply the scenario to your family. What is your answer?

  • reformedreformed Posts: 3,162

    I did answer the question. Perhaps you can't read?


    And no, abortion is not right in rape, incest, or even danger of the mother. It is murder in all cases.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396

    Abortion is murder.

    There is no justification for killing a child.


    Name calling is not usually a good idea (as Jan explained). I know Jesus did it, but He was exceptional in a number of other ways as well.

    @reformed did not call you a monster. He wrote the word after describing the evil of being "ok with killing babies."

    You seem to have taken the word "monster" to heart personally. Guilt? Conscience? If this is sensitive for you, write to me in a PM.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319
    edited November 23

    @Truth said:

    The mother usually "knows" that a human life is conceived within her. Unless a mother is utterly evil, the loss of a child in her womb is one of the most agonizing experiences a woman can have.

     @Truth, let me say here, for a man who has never been or never will be pregnant is in no position to say, "mother usually "knows" that a human life is conceived within her." Have you ever heard of "hidden pregnancies"? They are rare but genuine:

    • In about 1 in 475 pregnancies, women are unaware of the pregnancy until 20 weeks gestation or longer.
    • This means that this occurs more often than Rh disease and some other conditions we think of as reasonably rare.

    Let me admonish you about speaking on women and pregnancy. You are a man. It would be best if you asked more questions than making statements. Your wife and the women in your social circles would appreciate it and respect you more. Given your statement above,  @Truth, you need to process and comprehend the answers to three questions:


    1. What causes hidden pregnancy?

    "There are times when a pregnancy is undetected because the person carrying the pregnancy can't acknowledge the pregnancy. These cases can be impacted by chronic mental illness or outside factors, like an abusive partner or an unsupportive family who would not accept the pregnancy".


    2 Can one be nine months pregnant without knowing?

    • "...cases of "cryptic pregnancy" – also known as "pregnancy denial" – are not particularly rare. A cryptic pregnancy or stealth pregnancy means that a woman doesn't realize that she's pregnant until late in pregnancy – sometimes not until she's in labor. 
    • They are estimated to occur in around one in 2,500 cases, suggesting around 320 cases in the UK annually, or a potential headline story almost every day.

    Please note,  @Truth, "cryptic pregnancy" – also known as "pregnancy denial" – is not particularly rare. A cryptic pregnancy or stealth pregnancy means that a woman doesn't realize that she's pregnant until late in pregnancy – sometimes not until she's in labor. And, no, she is NOT "utterly evil"!


    3. Can you have no symptoms and still be pregnant?

    • Can I be pregnant and have no pregnancy symptoms? It's not common to be pregnant and have no pregnancy symptoms, but it's possible. There's nothing predictable about which symptoms a woman will have when she's pregnant, or even if she'll have the same symptoms from one pregnancy to the next.


    So,  @Truth, in the future, be more inclined to listen and learn before speaking of an experience you have notcan not, and will not ever have -- to conceive or have a baby.

    Nothing personal, just the facts. CM


    SOURCE:

    unknown pregnancy facts

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396
    edited November 23

    Not one of your arguments about hidden pregnancies justifies the satanic evil of killing a mother’s baby.

    just the thought that I’m taking to a man who defends murdering babies sickens me.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 3,162

    So men should be quite about the fact that abortion is murder because women might be offended? Liberal trash propaganda.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @reformed said:

    I did answer the question. Perhaps you can't read? And no, abortion is not right in rape, incest, or even danger of the mother. It is murder in all cases.

    Thanks for your response.

    @Truth said:

    Abortion is murder. There is no justification for killing a child. 

    Name calling is not usually a good idea (as Jan explained). I know Jesus did it, but He was exceptional in a number of other ways as well. 

    @reformed did not call you a monster. He wrote the word after describing the evil of being "ok with killing babies."

    You seem to have taken the word "monster" to heart personally. Guilt? Conscience? If this is sensitive for you, write to me in a PM.

    Thank you for responding to my invitation in the correct thread.


    Gentlemen,  @reformed  / @Truth ,

    I appreciate you're so willing to share your views on such a profound and personal matter if the above scenario occurs to a member of your family. I'd appreciate it if you could let me know if your disclosure is actual or it's just an ego answer. Are your families away from your sentiments? Are they in-sink and in agreement with you? Have you discussed this matter or scenario with them? It's one thing to say a thing, and another matter implements it.

     @Truth,

    As for  @reformed 's knack of name-calling, it's a dud. I, along with other CD Posters, am not bothered by it, personally.  @reformed  has a history in these forums with his semi-quasi, out-of-control proclivity to name-calling. No, once again, @Truth, your discernment-detector gave you a false reading. I didn't take "the word 'monster' to heart personally. Guilt? Conscience?". See the sentence above. There is no need to, now or later.

    No way in my last post, I used the word "abortion." No, not once. I agree one "shouldn't kill babies." I also agree that "there is no justification for killing a child." There, we have common ground.

    My post above wasn't about what you feared most. Just in case the two you missed the point of my post, it was about the following:

    1. Unproductively of the name-calling (in a sentence or stand alone).
    2. When a baby is a baby?
    3. Non-family members intruded into personal family crises before and after a collective decision was made to address the matter.
    4. Non-relative, primarily men, making laws restricting your family options to address your family crisis according to the scenario.
    5. Evil in the American land, e.g., "good," "innocent," "vulnerable," and sometimes "Christian people." are subject forms of it. Namely, rape, etc.
    6. I encouraged all posters to answer the two sets that many people face in life's matters.
    7. Embrace seriously the proposed scenario that is many people's reality.
    8. It's about problem-solving:
    • Family communications.
    • Choices
    • Consequences
    • Compassion
    • Interference
    • Territory/boundaries
    • Spiritual consultation when a family is in crisis.

    So, you see, your quest to pre-judge me is full-blown. It's a precursor to how you would relate to a person if the scenario lands on your doorsteps or one in your social circle of an unplanned or unanticipated pregnancy, like rape, don't or must end in "abortion." On the other hand, be informed of the circumstances.  Show compassion, consider all options, respect one's counsel/spirit director, the doctor's prognosis (mental/physical/social).

    As I see it, if the above scenario morphs into a reality, your wives/daughters will be like the JWs' people used to be about Blood Transfusions, one-way or the highway. What a position to put a family member in at the heat of a crisis?

    In times like these, your family needs love and compassion and not the law. Many of these laws that interfere and restrict a family's options are conceived and passed by men who are unwilling to help or support the reality the law demands (restricting women's options) they viciously legislated. CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396

    @C Mc Your questions above in the context of murder are utterly reprehensible to even consider. The topic is killing babies, There isn’t a lot to discuss except God’’s judgment.

    I am aghast that one human can type anything to the effect of wanting to hear some views on baby-killing.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @Truth,

    Thank you for your response. Let me say from the outset; you must have read my post in haste to conclude I am only interested in hearing "views on baby-killing." Nothing could be more further from the truth,  @Truth. How you missed my summative points, I am surprised. You seem to miss the essence by a mile. I wish CD have women posters. Even if they held similar views, like you (anti-abortionist/"pro-life"), they would communicate you completely missed the sentiments of my posts on this topic. Let's hope some of CD's silent readers would come forth to help you to see the point of my posts on this topic. Once again, I'm afraid you might be mistaken in your conclusion.

    I strongly suggest you re-read my last post in general and item # 8 in particular. It's painful and scary to even think about the scenario put forth. I know it frightened you to your core to think about such. The scenario is something you read about or prefer to happen to someone else but never landed on your doorstep. Collect your nerves.

    However, understand that what's dark, scary, diabolical, gross, evil, stomach-turning, and "reprehensible" is someone's reality! So, people have to deal with Satan and his demon brats. Calling me a name or labeling me this or that wouldn't remove the cold-hard facts. Born-again, church-going, baptized, Bible-reading, tithe-returning, etc., people are under attack. No, they are not alone. Christ is by their side. He will not take away anyone's rights; still, one has to decide. Love doesn't take away choice.  It helps one to decide. If you think I am going off the deep-end about Christians, remember "bad" things happened to "good" people. See Harold Samuel Kushner, a prominent American rabbi's book, "When Bad Things Happen to Good People," for some sobering thoughts.

    Until next time, mine your doubts and fears, so when tragedy or the scenario mentioned above strikes, God and love give choices. Be a blessing to your family. CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396
    edited November 23

     you must have read my post in haste to conclude I am only interested in hearing "views on baby-killing." Nothing could be more further from the truth

    I did not misread. The OP begins with the word "abortion." That is the context of your #8 question.

    The vilest choice isn't mine to take away and I can't and don't any more than God does. I also will not compromise truth: baby-killing can only exist in the heart of a despicable, vile human being.

    If you wish to talk about counselling a murderer through sin and forgiveness to salvation, that is another topic for another thread and was not addressed in your OP.

    How can you begin to defend yourself or your position when you are defending the horror of killing life God created and thrusting the knife that wounds the heart of a women like no other pain on earth? Whether you do or not, I happen to know women who have had abortions, and they live as close to Hell as a person can get in this life before the reality in the next. Some such women I know are forgiven by God and will be reunited with their babies in Heaven. Some will not.



       “This is what the LORD says—your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things.”    (Isaiah 44:24)

    “There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood.” (Proverbs 6:16–17)

       “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.”    (Proverbs 16:25)

    Post edited by Truth on
  • reformedreformed Posts: 3,162

    What in the world does a woman's viewpoint on the matter matter over anyone else's? It doesn't. It is murder no matter who is talking about it.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @reformed said:

    What in the world does a woman's viewpoint on the matter matter over anyone else's? It doesn't..."

    Her "viewpoint" is not a man's. A man is never forced to have a baby against his will (by law, church, or shaming). In a sound mind, a woman (of any age) can see my point in the scenario above. A woman is inclined to have a little more compassion than men on life issues in general and the above scenario. Proof, ask your wife and teen daughter. CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396

    What does that have to do with killing their babies?

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @Truth,

    I agree with you. The point about "hidden pregnancies" is to say, you don't know as much as you should know (before speaking) when you (@Truth) say, "the mother usually "knows" that a human life is conceived within her". Even now, you seem to be reluctant to accept the reality of "hidden pregnancies". To do so is not an endorsement to justify "the satanic evil of killing a mother’s baby". Come to grips with reality is all I ask of you at this juncture. What say ye? CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396

    "Hidden pregnancies" as you describe are a thing, to be sure.

    Hidden or not, killing babies is a despicable le evil.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 3,162

    Compassion has no place in letting someone kill a baby. Murder doesn't get compassion.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @Truth / @reformed,

    The matter of abortion is in the news again at the Supreme Court. Follow the arguments closely. It's not about killing babies. Could it be neither of you knows what a baby is?

    Test Tube IVF Step-by-Step Process:


    1. Step 1: Egg production stimulated by hormone therapy. ... 
    2. Step 2: Eggs retrieved from the ovary. ... 
    3. Step 3: Sperm Sample Provided. ... 
    4. Step 4: Eggs and sperm combined to allow fertilization. ... 
    5. Step 5: Fertilized eggs are introduced into the uterus.

    Is this a baby? If the process is stopped at any step, is it murder? CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396

    There is no private interpretation of a baby. A baby is the soul God creates at fertilization as far as humans can discern. It certainly isn’t after.

    For any person to purposely abort that life is murder.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @Truth,

    What a compassionless message you're sending to all childbearing rape and incest victims (many who are poor) on college campuses, mental institutions, cities, homeless shelters, nursing homes, and rural areas.

    No consideration for rape victims is where, I think, Mr. @reformed and his family parts company with you (@Truth) and your family. CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396

    Compassion does not justify murder.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    @Truth/@reformed,

    Would you please tell me which of the pics below is a $250.000 inhabitable "turn-key" house?

    Which of these is a house if I change my mind, the money ran out, the land is toxic, some of the materials are faulty, the land is in a flood zone, or the city passed an ordinance of "public domain"? What if the workers go on strike, quit, lack skills, or are incompetent? However, I got this far:

    or this far:

    Is this a $250.000 inhabitable, "turn-key" (ready to live in) house? Do I have a house to live or give away? When is a house, a house? It could be for any one of the reasons above; the family discontinued the development. Should not the owner have the options and the right to choose how to move forward? Keep in mind the family's health, finances, outside interferences, people trying to make laws restricting your options, and the family's internal decision.

    If you didn't get lost in the illustration, compare the pics to developing tissue in a woman. When is a baby, a baby? How can one "murder" what is not? To discard combined sperm and eggs in a dish is it "murder"? What about stored sperm or eggs? Is it "murder"? How do you feel or cope immediately if you were forced to live in or with the last two pics? CM

  • TruthTruth Posts: 396
    edited December 2

    If it "is not" why murder it?

    And no, it’s not ok to destroy a life God created.

    • I’m glad you don’t have a gun
    • I’m glad I’m not your neighbor.


    Post edited by Truth on
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