Luke 23:43 and its meaning...

Luke 23:43 and its meaning...

What does it mean? Jesus replied to the thief “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43) The Apostle Paul explains that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. (Acts 24:15) Since no unrighteous individuals are allowed entry to Heaven. Both Jesus and Paul were speaking about an Earthly Paradise.

False Religion and her minions reject "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;  and that he was buried, yes, that he was raised up on the third day according to the Scriptures;" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) Nobody is resurrected from Heaven to be on the earth. Notice Jesus never stated you will be with me in Heaven as oppossers of the Jesus Christ claim. Romans 10:9 states if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, You will be saved.

Why is such a simple message often reected by false religion? Many translations place a comma before the word “today” and thereby giving the impression that both Jesus and the evildoer both entered into Heaven that very same day. Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the first resurrection. The scriptures state that Jesus ascended to Heaven after 40 days after his resurrection. Where was he during those 40 days? Since Jesus sacrificed his fleshly body once for all time, he manifested and taught his disiples in different fleshly bodies her on earth about God's Kingdom. (Acts 1:3-11)

The scriptures state after he had suffered, he showed himself alive to them (how?) by many convincing proofs. He was Seen by them throughout 40 days, and he was speaking about the Kingdom of God." (Acts 1:3) Just think, after spending 40 days with his disciples in different bodies, he still showed himself ALIVE by Many Convining Proofs. Something he would have no need to do, if he was resurrected in his own body.

When you think of it. Even when Jesus appeared to his disicples a second time as a group, this time with Thomas. They saw a man standing in their midst saying 'May you have peace'. None of them exclaimed, there he is.... JESUS! This is because the did not know who this man was. But then Jesus says to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting but believe." (John 20:27)

What was different with this specific mafifesting than others? This time was the only time he manifested with wounds. See, if Jesus manifested in his own body, even without wounds, his disiples would have surely knew who he was. But, because he was in a different body yet again notice what Thomas' response was,“My Lord and my God! (Johm 20:28)

When a person performs a certain feat that overwhelms a person witnessing it, we might hear the expression OMG! It doesn't mean that this person is God. However, if we look up the Greek we can see how Thomas made a simliar statement that was much more refining.

Thomas answered and said to him, "You are the Lord of me and the God of me!" (John 20:28 Greek) It was at this precise moment in time, that Thomas realized and was given an epiphany that Jesus is 'the Christ, the Son of the living God.' (Mathew 16:16) In like manner, Moses was God to Aaron and Pharoh. Yet, we all know that Moses is not God.

One should also note that Thomas never asked to see Jesus body but rather his nail prints and his side. Evidently all the disciples and the women alike, had the same account of seeing Jesus in a differnet body, but without wounds. Therefore, this would cause Thomas to doubt that it was Jesus appearing to them and this is why the account reads as it does, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”

Yet, after all these proofs, notice what (John 20:30-31) states. "To be sure, Jesus also performed Many Other Signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his Name."

Why not take a Free Bible Online Lesson and see how much you know. Will you accept a Free Home Bible Study today, to continue living on through the Great Tribulation?

Comments

  • edited October 23

    Simple test for True God prophetic announcements is 100% accuracy. Wikipedia has Unfulfilled Watch Tower Society predictions that shows JW organization is untrustworthy. Wonder about @BroRando purpose for posting many links to untrustworthy JW organization ?


    Couple centuries before Christ, Jewish scholars usually translated Hebrew יהוה (God's Holy name) into Koine Greek as kurios (Lord). Hebrew lemma <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> is aligned with Greek LXX in 6,758 places (Logos Bible Search). Refining search <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> INTERSECTS <Lemma = lbs/el/κύριος> has 6,076 results so Jewish scholars usually translated יהוה as Lord (κύριος). Hebrew lemma <Lemma = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> is aligned with Greek LXX in 2,586 places. Refining search <Lemma = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> INTERSECTS <Lemma = lbs/el/θεός> has 2,252 results so Jewish scholars usually translated plural אלהים as singular God (θεός).


    Context for Acts 24:15 (future event) is Acts 24:1-21 LEB (with Hebrew word for Jewish usual translation of plural אלהים as God)  => And after five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders and an attorney, a certain Tertullus, all of whom brought charges against Paul to the governor. And when he had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, “We have experienced much peace through you, and reforms are taking place in this nation through your foresight. Both in every way and everywhere we acknowledge this, most excellent Felix, with all gratitude. But so that I may not impose on you for longer, I implore you to hear us briefly with your customary graciousness. For we have found this man to be a public menace and one who causes riots among all the Jews throughout the Roman Empire and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes, who even attempted to desecrate the temple, and we arrested him. When you yourself examine him you will be able to find out from him about all these things of which we are accusing him.” And the Jews also joined in the attack, asserting these things were so. And when the governor gestured for him to speak, Paul replied, “Because I know you have been a judge over this nation for many years, I defend myself cheerfully with respect to the things concerning myself. You can ascertain that it has not been more than twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem to worship. And neither did they find me arguing with anyone or making a crowd develop in the temple courts nor in the synagogues nor throughout the city. Nor can they prove the things to you concerning which they are now accusing me. But I do confess this to you, that according to the Way (which they call a sect), so I worship the אלהים God of our fathers, believing all things that are in accordance with the law and that are written in the prophets, having a hope in אלהים God which these men also themselves await: that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. For this reason also I myself always do my best to have a clear conscience toward אלהים God and people. So after many years, I came to practice charitable giving and offerings to my people, in which they found me purified in the temple courts, not with a crowd or with a disturbance. But there are some Jews from Asia who ought to be present before you and bring charges against me, if they have anything against me, or these men themselves should say what crime they found when I stood before the Sanhedrin, other than concerning this one declaration that I shouted while standing there before them: ‘I am being judged before you today concerning the resurrection of the dead!’ ”

    Revelation 20:11-15 LEB => And I saw a great white throne and the one who was seated on it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead—the great and the small—standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and each one was judged according to their deeds. And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



    Context for John 20:28 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of אלהים & יהוה) => Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who was called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the יהוה Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and put my finger into the mark of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will never believe!” And after eight days his disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Although the doors had been shut, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said, “Peace to you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Place your finger here and see my hands, and place your hand and put it into my side. And do not be unbelieving, but believing!” Thomas answered and said to him, “My יהוה Lord and my אלהים God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”


    Exodus 7:1-7 LEB => And יהוה Yahweh said to Moses, “See, I have made you as a אֱלֹהִ֖ים god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet. You will speak all that I will command you, and Aaron your brother will speak to Pharaoh, and he will release the Israelites from his land. And I myself will harden the heart of Pharaoh, and I will make my signs and my wonders numerous in the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh will not listen to you, and I will put my hand into Egypt and bring out my divisions, my people, the Israelites, from the land of Egypt with great punishments. And the Egyptians will know that I am יהוה Yahweh when I stretch out my hand over Egypt and bring the Israelites out from their midst.” And Moses and Aaron did it; as יהוה Yahweh commanded them, so they did. (And Moses was eighty years old, and Aaron was eighty-three years old when they spoke to Pharaoh.)


    Keep Smiling 😊

    Post edited by Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus on
  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477
    edited October 23

    Hebrew Tetagramaton found in the Hebrew Scripture that were translated into Greek.

    The New World Bible Translation Committee determined that there is compelling evidence that the Tetragrammaton did appear in the original Greek manuscripts. The decision was based on the following evidence:

    • Copies of the Hebrew Scriptures used in the days of Jesus and his apostles contained the Tetragrammaton throughout the text. In the past, few people disputed that conclusion. Now that copies of the Hebrew Scriptures dating back to the first century have been discovered near Qumran, the point has been proved beyond any doubt.
    • In the days of Jesus and his apostles, the Tetragrammaton also appeared in Greek translations of the Hebrew Scriptures. For centuries, scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Then, in the mid-20th century, some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day were brought to the attention of scholars. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters. So in Jesus’ day, copies of the Scriptures in Greek did contain the divine name. However, by the fourth century C.E., major manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint, such as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, did not contain the divine name in the books from Genesis through Malachi (where it had been in earlier manuscripts). Hence, it is not surprising that in texts preserved from that time period, the divine name is not found in the so-called New Testament, or Greek Scripture portion of the Bible.


  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319
    edited October 28

    @BroRando,

    Luke 23:43 and its meaning...

    The text,

    “‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise’” (NRSV)

    This is often taken as major proof of the immortality of the soul; that is, the belief that the spirit or soul of the faithful dead has conscious existence in heaven before the resurrection. The whole problem hangs on a single comma (not in Luke’s original manuscript).

    • With the comma placed before “today” (sēmeron), as most translations do, the adverb would refer to the following verb (“to be”), and the text would have the traditional meaning:

    “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” 

    • The comma after “today,” then the adverb would modify the preceding verb (“to tell”), and Jesus’ words would have an entirely different connotation:

    “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

    Though sometimes considered pleonastic (redundancy) and senseless, the alternative reading could be possible, mainly if all the textuallinguistic, and scriptural evidence is accounted for in a deep study.

    • New Testament (NT) manuscripts were written in the early Christian centuries without separation between words and sentences. Little or no punctuation was used in earlier times. 


    Jesus didn’t promise the penitent thief that they would be together in Paradise the day they died

    • If the comma is placed before the adverb “today,” it becomes virtually impos­sible to reconcile the passage with what the Bible—and Jesus Himself—teaches concerning the time when the faithful dead get their final reward in heaven (cf. Luke 14:131420:34–38John 5:28296:394053–58).
    • There is not a single instance where the Bible writers try to comfort the believers by saying that the dead in Christ have already been taken to heaven. 
      • We discussed this around the forums.


    One should note well:

    • Comfort in the face of death is always related to the resurrection, not to the idea that at death, the spirit or the soul is liberated from the body to be in God’s presence (cf. John 11:21–27Rev. 20:6).
    • Jesus’ statement may indeed sound some­what redundant in modern, Western languages; this pleonasm becomes entirely acceptable if understood as a conversational way to emphasize the sig­nificance of the announcement: “Truly, I tell you today . . .” 
    • This under­standing of the passage is neither new nor illegitimate.

    What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42):

    • To be remembered is exactly what Jesus promised him.
    • The dying man received peace and comfort.
    • This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever (John 14:1–31 Thess. 4:1617Rev. 21:1–4).


    Paradise in the passage:

    By “Paradise,” Jesus meant heaven (2 Cor. 12:2–4) or the eternal habitation of the redeemed in the New Jerusalem where the redeemed would find the tree of life and the throne of God will be found (Rev. 2:722:1–5).

    • Let’s be mindful of the fact Jesus didn’t ascend to heaven the same day but several days later.

    Scholars not faithful to Scripture argued that “Paradise” is not heaven but only the abode of the righteous as a separate compartment of hades, which would also have a compartment for the unrighteous.

    • For one to believe such is to deviate from Scripture and buy into the non-biblical teachings of the dead. e.g., in purgatory and limbo. See threads and posts around the forums on “purgatory.”
    • They claimed that after the resurrection and ascension of Christ, Paradise had been removed from hades to the third heaven mentioned in 2 Cor. 12:4.
      • We know this is nonsense. (see Kent).

    The truth found truth shared. Let's keep studyingCM


    Sources:

    1. Erwin W. Lutzer, One Minute After You Die (Chicago: Moody, 1997),  pp 138, 139.
    2. (H. A. Kent Jr., “Paradise,” in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1984], 826, 827).
  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    Commas and big words don't matter either. You believe in God or you don't. It does matter to believe in the only God that actually exists, who Jesus was. If Jesus wasn't God, then nothing else on earth matters except arguing useless points on dead religion and politics.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,575

    @Truth posted:

    Commas and big words don't matter either. You believe in God or you don't. It does matter to believe in the only God that actually exists, who Jesus was. If Jesus wasn't God, then nothing else on earth matters except arguing useless points on dead religion and politics.

    I respect your view of those who don't believe Jesus was God, but as one of those people, I dispute your critique. For me, "religion," though a murky term subject to lots of contamination in the public square, is not at all dead, at least not in its "faith" form.

    Politics is another story. In recent years I think we've seen a deterioration of political discourse, so much so that we no longer debate or argue; we fight... in nasty, corrosive, and divisive manners. I love discussing/debating politics, but in the current social climate, to do so with people who see politics differently sizeable exposes participants to sizable risks.

    Sorry for the side trip! My point is to assure you that among at least some of us who don't believe Jesus was God, religion/faith is vibrant and life-giving, as are both God and Jesus.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    Yeah, I am sure your religion is alive and well. But you totally missed God and got a fatal case of politics. You may think your wallowing in the muck is life, but you are dead in your politics. I can smell the stench from here. God and Jesus aren't life-giving when you don't even know who they are. They are just religious words.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    A life without Jesus as Lord is misguided in other areas. One is subject to fall for anything. CM

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,575
    edited October 30

    @Truth posted:

    Yeah, I am sure your religion is alive and well. But you totally missed God and got a fatal case of politics. You may think your wallowing in the muck is life, but you are dead in your politics. I can smell the stench from here. God and Jesus aren't life-giving when you don't even know who they are. They are just religious words.

    Thank you for the assessment.


    p.s. I admire the sensitivity of your nostrils.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    If a person hasn't even got on the bottom rung of the ladder, then I wouldn't pay much attention to their arguments about what is over the wall.

  • Doubtfully descending a ladder to step off the bottom rung has similar arguments about what is over the wall (doubts obscure past memories).

    Sad scripture example is scribes and Pharisees who lost their first Love for אלהים God somewhere along the way while studying scripture and saying The Shema daily (became vain repetition): years spent memorizing every letter & word of Torah along with Jewish oral law & traditions => Matthew 24 (imagine the Love ❤️ of אלהים God gently spoken in the Woes being pronounced as אלהים God desires repentance from sin to truth).

    2 Timothy 2:8-26 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of אלהים & יהוה in LXX) => Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David according to my gospel, in connection with which I suffer misfortune to the point of imprisonment as a criminal, but the word of אלהים God is not bound. Because of this, I endure all things for the sake of the chosen, in order that they also may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy: For if we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful—he cannot deny himself. Remind people of these things, solemnly urging them before the יהוה Lord not to dispute about words. This is in no way beneficial and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Make every effort to present yourself approved to אלהים God, a worker having no need to be ashamed, guiding the word of truth along a straight path. But avoid pointless chatter, for it will progress to greater ungodliness, and their message will spread like gangrene, among whom are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated concerning the truth by saying the resurrection has already taken place, and they are upsetting the faith of some. However, the solid foundation of אלהים God stands firm, having this seal: “The יהוה Lord knows those who are his,” and “Everyone who names the name of the יהוה Lord must abstain from unrighteousness.” Now in a great house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also wooden and earthenware ones, some of which are for honorable use, and some of which are for ordinary use. Therefore, if someone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. But flee from youthful desires, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, in company with those who call upon the יהוה Lord from a pure heart. But avoid foolish and uninformed controversies, because you know that they produce quarrels. And the slave of the יהוה Lord must not quarrel, but be kind toward everyone, skillful in teaching, tolerant, correcting those who are opposed with gentleness, seeing whether perhaps אלהים God may grant them repentance to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses again and escape from the trap of the devil, being held captive by him to do his will.

    Thankful for יהוה Lord Jesus being faithful, who desires an intimate loving ❤️ relationship with every human so we can Love ❤️ and worship The Father together (cleansed by the Holy blood of יהוה Lord Jesus). John 14:1-31 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of אלהים & יהוה in LXX) => “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in אלהים God; believe also in me. In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places; but if not, I would have told you, because I am going away to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, so that where I am, you may be also. And you know the way where I am going.” Thomas said to him, “יהוה Lord, we do not know where you are going. How are we able to know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “יהוה Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Am I with you so long a time and you have not known me, Philip? The one who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from myself, but the Father residing in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in me, the works that I am doing he will do also, and he will do greater works than these because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little time and the world will see me no longer, but you will see me; because I live, you also will live. On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. The one who has my commandments and keeps them—that one is the one who loves me. And the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “יהוה Lord, why is it that you are going to reveal yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves me he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and will take up residence with him. The one who does not love me does not keep my words, and the word that you hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me. These things I have spoken to you while residing with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name—that one will teach you all things, and will remind you of everything that I said to you. “Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you—not as the world gives, I give to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid. You have heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no power over me. But so that the world may know that I love the Father, and just as the Father has commanded me, thus I am doing. Get up, let us go from here!

    Thankful for intense faithful Love ❤️ relationship between The Word (Jesus) and The Father so every word spoken by יהוה Lord Jesus is אלהים God's bread for abundant human living.

    Philippians 2:5-11 LEB (with Hebrew words for Jewish usual translation of אלהים & יהוה in LXX) => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.

    Priestly prayer in John 17 includes Jesus experiencing אלהים God's Glory (John 17:5) and אלהים God's Love ❤️ (John 17:24) when the only being in existence was One אלהים God (before אלהים God created the physical realm out of nothing). The magnitude & faithful endurance of אלהים God's Love ❤️ is beyond human words to fully describe well: as is every aspect of Holy Fruit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Humilty, Self-Control (Galatians 5:22-23).

    

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,575

    @Truth posted:

    If a person hasn't even got on the bottom rung of the ladder, then I wouldn't pay much attention to their arguments about what is over the wall.

    A couple of questions from the bottom of the ladder:

    What message about whether Jesus was God did Peter's audience take from his Acts 2 sermon, in which he called Jesus "a man attested to you by God with deeds of power and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— this man, delivered up by the determined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing to a cross through the hand of lawless men. God raised ⌊him⌋ up, having brought to an end the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it" (Acts 2.22-24)?

    Recall that Peter's audience didn't have the New Testament to consult for additional insight; they had what Peter told them. So what message did they take from what Peter told them? What message did they take from Peter's calling Jesus a man through whom God had done great deeds, whom they had killed, but whom God had raised? Please cite the verse(s) which in your view report the message you believe the audience took from his presentation.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395

    The thing Bible readers do not miss is that Jesus is God. If you choose to reject that, then not much of Peter’s sermon will make sense or matter to you. There isn’t much to discuss. It’s like standing in front of a roaring lion and a stranger having the audacity to deny lions exist and demanding that I prove a lion is there. That would be crazy. Similarly, so are your questions above.

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 1

    No matter how you cut it, Peters sermon isn’t all we know about God. We do know that Peter and Christians understood Jesus to be God. Jesus himself was clear about that.

    The passage you indicate above could stand alone and be clear that Jesus was the man in which God worked. God in flesh. The incarnation. A man doing what only God could do. A man who was a final perfect sacrifice. Peter nailed it. The people could could not and did not miss that Jesus was God. Some may have rejected God anyway then, just as you do today.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,575

    @Truth posted:

    The thing Bible readers do not miss is that Jesus is God. If you choose to reject that, then not much of Peter’s sermon will make sense or matter to you.

    It's precisely because Peter's sermon makes sense to me that I conclude that Jesus is not God. Yet I acknowledge the possibility that I could be mistaken. Fortunately, if, as you claim, Peter's sermon tells "Bible readers" that Jesus is God, then you ought to be able to quote from Peter's sermon where Peter told his audience that Jesus was God. Please do so.


    There isn’t much to discuss. It’s like standing in front of a roaring lion and a stranger having the audacity to deny lions exist and demanding that I prove a lion is there. That would be crazy. Similarly, so are your questions above.

    This immaterial and inconsequential analogy makes about as much a constructive contribution to our exchange as your previous comments about


    No matter how you cut it, Peters sermon isn’t all we know about God.

    In this case, how I "cut it" was to ask you about Peter's Acts 2 sermon and the message you believe Peter's audience took from that message, given that, no matter how you cut it, his audience didn't have other parts of the New Testament to refer to for additional insight into who Jesus was.


    The passage you indicate above could stand alone and be clear that Jesus was the man in which God worked. God in flesh. The incarnation. A man doing what only God could do.

    The passage is clear that Jesus was the man to whom God attested and through whom God did mighty deeds (Acts 2.22). That is, the passage says God did through Jesus what only God could have done through him. The passage says Jesus was the man whom the Jews and others killed, but whom God then raised (Acts 2.23-24). In his Acts 4 presentation, Peter calls Jesus God's "anointed" "holy servant" (Acts 4.27,30). The passages do NOT say Jesus was the man who WAS God.

    Jesus tells his disciples that when they are arrested, God will give them "the right words at the right time." It will not be they who are speaking, however, but rather "the Spirit of your Father speaking through you" (Matthew 10.19-20). Was Jesus telling his disciples that since God would act through them, as Peter told his audience God acted through Jesus, they, too, would be God incarnate? Of course not. Jesus (and his disciples) were conduits of divine action, NOT God godself.


    A man who was a final perfect sacrifice. Peter nailed it. The people could could not and did not miss that Jesus was God. Some may have rejected God anyway then, just as you do today.

    If the people could not miss that Jesus was God, then you should be able to quote from Peter's Acts 2 sermon where he told people Jesus was God. Please do so. Please don't summarize the theology you impute to the text. Instead, simply quote the verses in which Peter tells his audience that Jesus is God. I've quoted for you the verses in which I believe Peter told his audience that Jesus was a man to whom God attested, through whom God did mighty deeds, and whom God raised to new life. Please quote the verse(s) in which Peter tells the crowd Jesus is God.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872

    The passage you indicate above could stand alone and be clear that Jesus was the man in which God worked.

    Yes ... God worked in the man Jesus! However, that did NOT make that man to be "God incarnated" or make that man to be "God". God has worked in numerous men throughout human history (cp. prophets like Moses, Elijah), which in no case meant that God had "incarnated Himself"

    God in flesh. The incarnation.

    "God IN flesh" ? See above .. unfortunately, you seem to mean a "fleshly God" with your incarnation theory

    A man doing what only God could do.

    No ... because God could NOT be the sacrifice. A sacrifice had to be offered TO God.

    A man who was a final perfect sacrifice.

    Yes ... which required that this man was a human being just as Adam had been a human being. Both started out perfect and without sin ... the first Adam decided to disobey God and sin, the second Adam decided to always obey God and remained without sin and could therefore be the sacrifice.

    Peter nailed it.

    He did!

    The people could could not and did not miss that Jesus was God.

    In which Bible are you reading? There is NO indication and certainly NO mention that anyone got such an idea from Peter's words. What many correctly understood was that the man Jesus was the God sent and God approved Messiah whom God had promised to come and be man's redeemer, whom God had made both Lord and Christ.

    Some may have rejected God anyway then, just as you do today.

    Yes, some may have rejected God by rejecting THE MAN Jesus as God's Messiah .... ARE you not doing the same by making the man Jesus something he was not and is not?

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    I guess @Truth has a different Bible? I never found Peter saying that Jesus was God. Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16)

    Nothing here about Jesus being God... In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in the heavens did. (Matthew 16:17)

    Since God is eternal and always existed, God has No Father but Jesus does. "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth." (John 1:14)

    Acts 2:36

    Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

    Notice this greeting along with Peter's Greeting?

    Ephesians 1:3

    Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

    2 Corinthians 1:3

    Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,

    1 Peter 1:3

    Praised be the God and Fathe of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

  • TruthTruth Posts: 395
    edited November 1

    @Bill_Coley The entirety of your post manifests my point with palpable limpidity. Let the thinking reader discern.

    Please do not feel disparaged. You needn't feel ashamed of what you cannot see. You are guilty of truth about Jesus you reject. Accept the truth of who Jesus is and all your other questions fall neatly into crisp understanding. Until then, the lion analogy is most consequential.

    @Wolfgang Same.

    @BroRando See above.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872

    Please do not feel disparaged. You needn't feel ashamed of what you cannot see. You are guilty of truth about Jesus you reject. Accept the truth of who Jesus is and all your other questions fall neatly into crisp understanding. Until then, the lion analogy is most consequential.

    Talking about yourself? Once again, we seem to have someone whose vocabulary appears quite abnormal when it comes to reading and understanding simple words like "man" (but only when they relate to a specific person in Scripture) ...

    Your lion analogy is based on a false premise ... there is no lion, but only such image of a lion in your head which you consider to be real.

    You evade answering simple questions asked of you and instead retreat to comments about the other person ... think that's "smart"?

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,575

    On November 1, @Truth posted this:

    The entirety of your post manifests my point with palpable limpidity. Let the thinking reader discern.

    Please do not feel disparaged. You needn't feel ashamed of what you cannot see. You are guilty of truth about Jesus you reject. Accept the truth of who Jesus is and all your other questions fall neatly into crisp understanding. Until then, the lion analogy is most consequential.


    A bit more than nine hours earlier, in another thread @Truth posted this:

    What I find noteworthy is that you blow a lot of smoke. You don’t answer a short simple question. That shouts.

    Perhaps the most applicable analogy in our exchange is not one with lions, electrons, ladders, or stench, but one with a goose and a gander.

  • BroRandoBroRando Posts: 477

    @Truth

    Claiming Jesus is God and that he raised himself up from the dead is a lie and not even in the scriptures. Romans 10:9 states if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, You will be saved.

    I think I will stay what scripture says and reject the dogma taught from those who oppose (Matthew 16:16)

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