A SCRIPTURE based discussion of the Trinity

Its NOT THERE.

Tagged:
«13

Comments

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    One the other hand, it is full of the One (not 'Three-in-One') God and the power which radiates from him, the holy (set aside for an important reason) spirit (breath, wind),as well as his son - and shall be revealed here, in a careful reading of the Bible that took me about a year.

    Please follow along with such sites as www.BibleGateway.com .

    We first start with the very first reference to the holy spirit:

    Gen 1:2-And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit [or breath] of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Nothing here indicates a 'Ghost-God', much less two Other 'God-Persons/Natures/ Essences'... 

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    Gen 1:26- And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

    CHURCHianity has God talking to Himself/Themselves, but His son was there. Also, so too, were the angels-

    Job 38:4-Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5-Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6- On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone, 7- while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?


    We don't know if the angels assisted God and Christ (they likely DID), however, it doesn't matter; God was speaking to his family. He Himself later tells us that it was His SON who "made" all things, and also that GOD created all things "THROUGH" him!

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    Now Gen 18 and 19, where three men appeared to Abraham and Lot. Clergy say it was the Trinity (Father, Son and Ghost] Let's see what the ACCOUNT says-

    Gen 18:1- And Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he sat at the tent-door in the heat of the day. 2-And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him. And when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent-door, and bowed himself to the earth, 3-and said, Lord, if now I have found favor in thine eyes, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. 4-Let now a little water be fetched, that ye may wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 8-And he took thick and sweet milk, and the calf that he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood before them under the tree, and they ate. 9-And they said to him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. 10-And he said, I will certainly return to thee at [this] time of the year, and behold, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah was listening at the tent-door, which was behind him. 11-Now Abraham and Sarah were old [and] advanced in age: it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. 12-And Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am become old, shallI have pleasure, and my lord old? 13-And Jehovah said to Abraham, Why is this, that Sarah laughs, saying, Shall I indeed bear, when I am become old? 14-Is [any] matter too wonderful for Jehovah? At the time appointed I will return to thee, at [this] time of the year, and Sarah shall have a son. 20-And Jehovah said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah's great and their sin is very grievous, 21-I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come to me; and if not, I will know [it].

    [No "Omnipresence"]

    22-And the men turned thence, and went towards Sodom; and Abraham remained yet standing before Jehovah.

    [This is not Jehovah, literally, but angels representing Him]

    23-And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also cause the righteous to perish with the wicked? 33-And Jehovah went away when he had ended speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

    Genesis 19

    14-And the two angels came to Sodom at even. And Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. And Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he bowed down, the face toward the ground. 15-And as the dawn arose, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Up, take thy wife and thy two daughters who are present, lest thou perish in the iniquity of the city."16-And as he lingered, the men laid hold on his hand, and on the hand of his wife, and on the hand of his two daughters, Jehovah being merciful to him; and they led him out, and set him without the city.17-And it came to pass when they had brought them outside, that he said, Escape for thy life: look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain: escape to the mountain, lest thou perish. 23-The sun rose upon the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24-And Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven.

    Now, what does the account show us?

    Did Three Gods, or 'God-Persons/Natures/Essences' become "men" to visit Abraham and Sodom? God-the-Father, God-the-Son, and God-the-Ghost doing all this...or Jehovah speaking and working thru these angels? Notice that they are called "men", "angels" ,and "Jehovah" interchangeably.

    As we continue thru the Bible, you will see OTHER ac counts where an Angel is spoken of as "Jehovah" ( or "LORD" in most translations removing it) for the sole reason God is SPEAKING directly THRU them.

    Moses later writes that no man can see God and live, as Jesus later, still, did.

    The Apostle John, too, later writes that no man HAS seen God, which indicates that He has used different angels and IMAGES to appear and represent Himself to man. John, and MANY others DID see Jesus! (NOT God) Abraham, too, sees ANGELS, not God- and certainly not THREE Almighty Gods!

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    The next account that gives us insight into the Identity of God is Exodus.

    Ex 3:13 - And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me,  What is his name? What shall I say unto them?14- And God said unto Moses,, "I Shall Be As I Shall Be."  [ https://exodus-314.com/part-i/exodus-314-in-judaism/exodus-314-in-jewish-bible-translations/]And He said, "So you shall say to the Children of Israel, "I Shall Be has sent me to you". [No "I am]15- And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,

    >>>> Jehovah, <<<<

    the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my NAME FOREVER, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    https://religionnews.com/2018/01/25/the-original-hebrew-name-of-god-re-discovered-in-1000-bible-manuscripts/

    No mention of 'God-the-Son', nor 'God-the-Ghost'.A Personal Name that would be FOREVER!

    Also notice that God NEVER says "If you listen to US, WE will bless you". etc. when speaking to man; He ALWAYS speaks in the first person!This does not show 3 God-Beings, but ONE Personage.

    For FOUR HUNDRED YEARS, the Jews who worshiped him were in bondage to Egypt, and, understandably, were starting to doubt he existed or cared.

    Thus he told Moses, whom He would use as a Word and a Spokesman, and arranged for his brother to speak FOR them, since Moses was poor at speaking -

    Ex 4:15- You will speak with him and tell him what to say. I will help both you and him [to speak], and will teach you both what to do.

    16- He will speak to the people for you. He will be your spokesman, and you will serve as God to him.17- And take this staff in your hand that you will perform the signs with.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    Did Three Gods, or 'God-Persons/Natures/Essences' become "men" to visit Abraham and Sodom?

    The text just says that three men - later on also said to have been messengers - visited Abraham.

    Why do people read something like "spirit beings" who "became men" into this and other records in Scripture??

    Has anyone read in Scripture that "spirit beings" turn themselves into or become "human beings"? Or perhaps that a "human being" has a prior been living as a "spirit being" before birth?

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    Very good! But "angel" means "messenger"- both man and spirit...

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303
    edited May 29

    No, "angel" does not mean "messenger" ..... the respective Hebrew and Greek words mean "messenger". They have been translated by into English (a) sometimes "messenger" - when translators wanted to give the meaning "living human messenger", and (b) oftentimes "angel" - when translators wanted to give the meaning of "living spirit being".

    The question is: On what is such manner of translation based?? Which is the basic foundational meaning of the Hebrew / Greek word? The answer is clearly "messenger". Why then the deviation into giving the word the meaning "spirit being" (oftentimes such "angels" are not even involved in any way with "message / messenger" ???

    What would your answers be to the questions in my earlier post above? what about answers to the questions in this post?

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    I MEANT the Biblical languages.

    Often it depends the context.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    So then, what do you answer to my various questions above?

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    Depends on the example.

    Whether one is man or angel he could be a MESSENER (ANGEL).

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    And "angel" ONLY mean messenger in the Biblical languages!

  • @theMadJW And "angel" ONLY mean messenger in the Biblical languages!

    Greek word ἄγγελος n., angel; messenger (disagrees with idea '"angel" ONLY mean messenger')

    Hebrew has relative few word roots so many words have more than one meaning: e.g. מַלְאָךְ => angel, messenger, envoy

    מַלְאָךְ malʾāk, n.c., messenger; messengers of God (prophets, priests, angels); angel of God, Yahweh. 213×

    Roots: לאך; מַלְאָךְ. Cognates: מְלָאכָה; מַלְאָכוּת; מַלְאָכוּת; מַלְאָכִי; מַלְאָכִי

    Bible Senses

    angel n., a supernatural being created by God to serve Him; often functions as a messenger: Ge 16:7, 9–11; 19:1, 15; 21:17; 22:11, 15; 24:7, 40; 28:12; 31:11; 32:2; 48:16; Ex 3:2; 14:19; 23:20, 23; 32:34; 33:2; Nu 20:16; 22:22–27, 31–32, 34–35; Jdg 2:1, 4; 5:23; 6:11–12, 20–22; 13:3, 6, 9, 13, 15–18, 20–21; 1 Sa 29:9; 2 Sa 14:17, 20; 19:28; 24:16–17; 1 Ki 13:18; 19:5, 7; 2 Ki 1:3, 15; 19:35; Is 37:36; 63:9; Ho 12:5; Zec 1:9, 11–14; 2:2, 7; 3:1, 3, 5–6; 4:1, 4–5; 5:5, 10; 6:4–5; 12:8; Ps 34:8; 35:5–6; 78:49; 91:11; 103:20; 148:2; Job 4:18; 33:23; 1 Ch 21:12, 15–16, 18, 20, 27, 30; 2 Ch 32:21 (110×)

    messenger n., someone (natural or supernatural) who carries a message; perhaps fulfilling other representative functions: Ge 32:4, 7; Jos 6:25; 7:22; Jdg 6:35; 7:24; 9:31; 11:12–14, 17, 19; 1 Sa 6:21; 11:3–4, 7, 9; 16:19; 19:11, 14–16, 20–21; 23:27; 25:14, 42; 2 Sa 2:5; 3:12, 14, 26; 11:4, 19, 22–23, 25; 12:27; 1 Ki 19:2; 22:13; 2 Ki 1:2–3, 5, 16; 5:10; 6:32–33; 7:15; 9:18; 10:8; 14:8; Is 14:32; 18:2; 37:9, 14; 42:19; 44:26; Je 27:3; Eze 23:16, 40; 30:9; Na 2:14; Hag 1:13; Mal 2:7; 3:1; Ps 104:4; Job 1:14; Pr 13:17; 16:14; 17:11; Ec 5:5; Ne 6:3; 1 Ch 14:1; 19:2, 16; 2 Ch 18:12; 35:21; 36:15–16 (84×)

    envoy n., someone sent on a mission to represent the interests of someone else: Nu 20:14; 21:21; 22:5; 24:12; Dt 2:26; Jos 6:17; 2 Sa 5:11; 1 Ki 20:2, 5, 9; 2 Ki 16:7; 17:4; 19:9, 14, 23; Is 30:4; 33:7; Eze 17:15 (19×)

    Greek Alignments

    ἄγγελος n., angel; messenger: Ge 16:7, 9–11; 19:1, 15; 21:17; 22:11, 15; 24:7, 40; 28:12; 31:11; 32:2, 4, 7; 48:16; Ex 3:2; 14:19; 23:20, 23; 32:34; 33:2; Nu 20:14, 16; 22:22–27, 31–32, 34–35; 24:12; Jos 7:22; Jdg 2:1, 4; 5:23; 6:11–12, 20–22, 35; 7:24; 9:31; 11:12–14, 17; 13:3, 6, 9, 13, 15–18, 20–21; 1 Sa 6:21; 11:3–4, 7, 9; 16:19; 19:11, 14, 16, 20–21; 23:27; 25:14; 2 Sa 2:5; 3:12, 14, 26; 5:11; 11:4, 19, 22–23, 25; 12:27; 14:17, 20; 19:28; 24:16–17; 1 Ki 13:18 … (191×)

    πρεσβύτερος n., elder; old man: Nu 21:21; 22:5; Dt 2:26 (3×)

    πρέσβυς n., elder; old man: Nu 21:21; 22:5; Dt 2:26 (3×)

    βασιλεύς n., king: Is 14:32; Pr 13:17; 1 Ch 21:20 (3×)

    κατασκοπεύω v., spy out: Jos 6:25 (1×)

    παρέρχομαι v., pass by; go by: Jdg 11:19 (1×)

    ἔργον n., work: Na 2:14 (1×)


     The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2017).


    @theMadJW Its NOT THERE.

    Agreed. Trinity, Triunity, Tri-Unity, & Trinitarian are words that do not appear anywhere in original Bible language. Found Trinity in one verse in one translation:

    Men, Israelites. Hear these words at once. Jesus, the Nazarene, a man who has been demonstrated to you by God to be that which He claims to be, this demonstration taking the form of miracles that show the power of God, and miracles that are a startling, imposing, amazement-awakening portent, and miracles that have for their purpose the attestation of the divine mission of the one who performs them, which miracles God performed through His intermediate agency in your midst even as you yourselves know positively; this One, having been delivered up by the counsel of God which [in the council held by the Trinity] had decided upon His destiny, even by the foreordination of God which is that act fixing His destiny, by wicked hands you crucified and killed, whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death because it was not possible for Him to be mastered by it. (Acts 2:22-24 The New Testament: An Expanded Translation by Kenneth S. Wuest)


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    Those ALL mean 'messenger'- instead of the One SENDING them.

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    Exodus 7:1 - And Jehovah said to Moses, " See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. - Darby

    So Moses "Was God" to Aaron and to Pharaoh (in a lesser sense).

    Just as Jesus "Was God" to the world.


  • @theMadJW So Moses "Was God" to Aaron and to Pharaoh (in a lesser sense).

    @theMadJW Just as Jesus "Was God" to the world.

    Per John 14:1, How is Jesus different than Moses ?


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    Moses 'was' God only to Pharaoh, during his short life. Why?

  • @theMadJW Moses 'was' God only to Pharaoh, during his short life. Why?

    Why did Jesus command disciples: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. (John 14:1 LEB) ?

    Moses never commanded Pharoah to believe in Moses as God.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Why did Jesus command disciples: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. (John 14:1 LEB) ?

    A careful reading of what is written in the text that Jesus commanded his disciples shows that Jesus DID NOT command them to believe in him - Jesus - as God.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Why did Jesus command disciples: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. (John 14:1 LEB) ?

    @Wolfgang A careful reading of what is written in the text that Jesus commanded his disciples shows that Jesus DID NOT command them to believe in him - Jesus - as God.

    Appears "careful reading" simply does not want to understand what Jesus commanded.

    Μὴ ταρασσέσθω ὑμῶν ἡ καρδία· πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε. (John 14:1 SBLGNT)

    πιστεύετε => verb, present, active, indicative/imperative, second person, plural

    εἰς => preposition: to, toward (can be translated "in" while εἰς is different than ἐν preposition)

    καὶ => and, even, also (connection)

    πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε. => be ye believing to (in) The God, also to (in) Me be ye believing (my literal translation)

    Olde English ye = you (plural). To me, "be ye believing" expresses present tense continuous action in present time.


    Keep Smiling 😊

  • @theMadJW June 5 So Moses "Was God" to Aaron and to Pharaoh (in a lesser sense).

    @theMadJW June 5 Just as Jesus "Was God" to the world.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 6 Per John 14:1, How is Jesus different than Moses ?

    @theMadJW June 6  Moses 'was' God only to Pharaoh, during his short life. Why?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 7 Why did Jesus command disciples: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. (John 14:1 LEB) ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 7 Moses never commanded Pharoah to believe in Moses as God.

    @theMadJW June 7 Because he wasn't the MESSIAH!

    Who is the "he" referring to ? Moses ?

    Jesus knew He was The Messiah, The Christ => ... But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath by the living God, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!” Jesus said to him, “You have said it. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his robes, saying, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have just now heard the blasphemy! What do you think?” And they answered and said, “He deserves death!” Then they spat in his face and struck him with their fists, and they slapped him, saying, “Prophesy for us, you Christ! Who is it who hit you?” (Matthew 26:63-68)

    Repeating unanswered question => Why did Jesus command disciples: “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. (John 14:1 LEB) ?

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Appears "careful reading" simply does not want to understand what Jesus commanded.

    Ok ...so you admit that you don't understand what Jesus commanded?

    I read that Jesus commanded "“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. (John 14:1 LEB) ... but there is absolutely nothing in Jesus' command about "believe that I am God" or "believe in me as God".

    All your fancy display of Greek wordings used doesn't change anything in Jesus' words nor make Jesus say what you seem to believe and put into his words.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 7 Appears "careful reading" simply does not want to understand what Jesus commanded.

    @Wolfgang June 7 Ok ...so you admit that you don't understand what Jesus commanded?

    Your idea assertion reminds me of Matthew 7:1-5 (you "see" in me what really is in thee => "you don't understand what Jesus commanded")

    My faith believes Jesus is truthful so am believing in Jesus the same as me believing in God.

    @Wolfgang June 7 I read that Jesus commanded "“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. (John 14:1 LEB) ... but there is absolutely nothing in Jesus' command about "believe that I am God" or "believe in me as God".

    What Scripture word(s) support your idea: "there is absolutely nothing in Jesus' command about "believe that I am God" or "believe in me as God".

    @Wolfgang June 7 All your fancy display of Greek wordings used doesn't change anything in Jesus' words nor make Jesus say what you seem to believe and put into his words.

    From your faith belief (Jesus is an annointed human from God, but not God) frame of reference, what did Jesus command in John 14:1 ?


    Keep Smiling

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    I don't believe I'm agreeing with WOLFGANG!

    But he's RIGHT!

  • edited June 8

    @theMadJW June 7 I don't believe I'm agreeing with WOLFGANG!

    @theMadJW June 7 But he's RIGHT!

    From your faith belief ('Jesus was not God' posted on May 22 & 'Michael is described with the authority that only Christ is shown to have.' ... 'God inspired John to refer to Jesus by his original name, Michael, in Revelation to verify that Daniel's prophecy of Michael protecting God's people- would still take place!' posted on May 24) frame of reference, what did Jesus command in John 14:1 ?


    Keep Smiling 😊

    Post edited by Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus on
  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,314

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

    From your faith belief (Jesus is an annointed human from God, but not God) frame of reference, what did Jesus command in John 14:1 ?

    I prefer to respond to the question you ask from the frame of reference created by the text itself.

    As noted by the ESV and NRSV, as well as multiple commentaries, the first verb "believe" in the verse can also be translated as an indicative ("You believe in God; believe also in me") rather than as an imperative ("Believe in God; believe also in me."). In my view, such handling of the verse makes clear its obvious meaning: Jesus tells his followers they already trust/believe in God; now he wants them to expand their trust to include him.

    In context, Jesus offers encouragement to his followers as they face the troubling news of his impending death. You can trust me, he tells them, when I tell you that I go to prepare a place for you.

    The language of the verse is uncomplicated to my reading, as is the distinction Jesus makes between himself and God. He refers to belief in God and belief in him, and draws no connection between the two.

    Therefore, according to the framework created by the text itself, I believe Jesus commanded his followers to believe not only in God, but in him.

    Where in the text itself (NOT in your personal faith beliefs) do you find support for your interpretation of the verse?


    What Scripture word(s) support your idea: "there is absolutely nothing in Jesus' command about "believe that I am God" or "believe in me as God".

    Why should we expect Jesus to say, "By the way, please don't interpret what I just said to mean that I think I'm God"? His words are clear, just as they are when he calls God "the one true God" (John 17.3), when he asks why someone would call him "good" when God is the only one who is "good" (Mark 10.18), and when, after the resurrection, he directs Mary to tell the disciples that he's about to ascend to his Father and God (John 20.17). There is no need for translation assistance in any of those instances or many others.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Your idea assertion reminds me of Matthew 7:1-5 (you "see" in me what really is in thee => "you don't understand what Jesus commanded")

    you can keep your moral preaching to yourself!

    My faith believes Jesus is truthful so am believing in Jesus the same as me believing in God.

    Well, let me tell you again the obvious => I most certainly believe Jesus is truthful, and thus I believe in God and I believe in Jesus.

    @Wolfgang June 7 I read that Jesus commanded "“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. (John 14:1 LEB) ... but there is absolutely nothing in Jesus' command about "believe that I am God" or "believe in me as God".

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus What Scripture word(s) support your idea: "there is absolutely nothing in Jesus' command about "believe that I am God" or "believe in me as God".

    How about ... the exact words of Jesus as recorded in this verse !!

    From your faith belief (Jesus is an annointed human from God, but not God) frame of reference, what did Jesus command in John 14:1 ?

    He said exactly what he said ....

    What he DID NOT say is however what you from your faith belief would have liked him to say ... and what now you make him out in your interpretation to have said 😪

  • theMadJWtheMadJW Posts: 168

    So, simply, the Trinity is NOT mentioned in the Bible- as it WOULD be if True!

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 7 From your faith belief (Jesus is an annointed human from God, but not God) frame of reference, what did Jesus command in John 14:1 ?

    @Bill_Coley June 8 I prefer to respond to the question you ask from the frame of reference created by the text itself.

    Caution is the deceptiveness of human heart (Isaiah 59:13 '... uttering words of deception from the heart'), which clearly interprets 'the text itself' using personal faith belief frame of reference. Caution: phrase "the text itself" can be truthful (consistent with Holy God) OR deceptive appeal to an unnamed authority (our spiritual adversary is a master manipulator of what "the text itself" says: e.g. left out a Psalm 91 phrase in Matthew 4:6 when tempting Jesus to sin). FWIW: caution also applies to me (want to keep learning Holy God's Truth, not repeat my own understanding).


    @Bill_Coley June 8 As noted by the ESV and NRSV, as well as multiple commentaries, the first verb "believe" in the verse can also be translated as an indicative ("You believe in God; believe also in me") rather than as an imperative ("Believe in God; believe also in me."). In my view, such handling of the verse makes clear its obvious meaning: Jesus tells his followers they already trust/believe in God; now he wants them to expand their trust to include him.

    Concur with these words: albeit am reading these words using my faith belief frame of reference so trusting in God = trusting in Jesus.

    United Bible Societies (UBS) Handbook Series is a commentary set (focused on translation issues), which includes insights about John 14:1

    In 13:38 Jesus was addressing Peter; in 14:1 he is addressing all his disciples. The Greek of 14:1 clearly indicates this shift: “Do not let your (plural) heart be troubled.” Most translators indicate the change in audience simply by rendering “heart” as “hearts” (NAB “Do not let your hearts be troubled”). TEV marks the change explicitly by including the information Jesus told them, and GeCL by “Then Jesus said to them all.” JB calls attention to the transition in a footnote. However, this kind of transition is better made explicit in the text, for otherwise the persons who hear the passage read may not correctly identify the person addressed. Furthermore, many readers probably do not read the footnotes. Then, too, since Chapter 14 is frequently read as a unit, it is important to indicate the persons to whom Jesus is speaking at the very outset of the chapter. It may be useful to indicate this fact quite clearly by saying “Jesus told his disciples.”

    On the use of the phrase be worried and upset, see the comments at 11:33.

    In both of its occurrences the verb believe may be either imperative or indicative, since the Greek forms are the same. TEV, together with most translations, takes both of them as imperatives (Believe in God, and believe also in me); TEV alternative reading translates the first as indicative and the second as imperative (“You believe in God, believe also in me”). A third possible combination would be to render them both as indicatives: “You believe in God, and you also believe in me.” In favor of the choice accepted by TEV is the observation that the first verb in this verse (Do not be worried and upset) is a specifically imperative form in Greek. In this context Believe in me must be understood in the sense of “put your confidence in me” or “trust in me” or “trust yourself to me.”


     Barclay Moon Newman and Eugene Albert Nida, A Handbook on the Gospel of John, UBS Handbook Series (New York: United Bible Societies, 1993), 453–454.

    Greek verb πιστεύω has verb stem ending with a vowel (dipthong εύ is two vowels pronounced together as one: feud). Conjugating verb has vowel contraction so present tense, active voice, second person plural for the indicative & imperative moods result in identical spelling.


    @Bill_Coley June 8 In context, Jesus offers encouragement to his followers as they face the troubling news of his impending death. You can trust me, he tells them, when I tell you that I go to prepare a place for you.

    Concur along with depth of meaning becoming apparent after resurrection. To me, encouragement also included: “A new commandment I give to you: that you love one another—just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples—if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35 LEB) that had "my disciples" jump out at me: if Jesus is not God, then "my disciples" (of Jesus) simply conflicts with the greatest command: “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5 LEB)

    If believe Jesus & The Father = One Yahweh God, then being a disciple of Jesus = being a disciple of Yahweh.

    If believe Jesus is NOT God, then being a disciple of Jesus means disobeying greatest command: something is not Loving God all the way.


    @Bill_Coley June 8 The language of the verse is uncomplicated to my reading, as is the distinction Jesus makes between himself and God. He refers to belief in God and belief in him, and draws no connection between the two.

    Curious what belief in God and belief in Jesus means to you ? ('distinction' & 'draws no connection between the two' reads to me as believing in more than One God Spirit)


    @Bill_Coley June 8 Therefore, according to the framework created by the text itself, I believe Jesus commanded his followers to believe not only in God, but in him.

    Logos Greek Morphology has @BE (adverB Emphatic) & @TE (parTicle Emphatic) assigned to καὶ in John 14:1 (from Greek language scholar)

    The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament entry about καὶ includes:

    1. Occurrences in the NT — 2. Usage of καί — 3. Usage of καὶ … καί — 4. Καί = also, even

    . . .

    4. Καί was originally an added adverbial, normally with a strengthening or intensifying function, corresponding to English also / even. This usage continued and is especially frequent before personal and demonstrative pronouns, often with crasis, e.g. κἀγώ and κἀκεῖνος. Other examples are Matt 5:46: οὐχὶ καί, “not even”; John 5:25: καὶ νῦν ἐστιν, “and is already here”; before comparatives in Matt 11:9; John 14:12; but also after interrogatives as an intensifier, e.g., 1 Cor 15:29: τὶ καί, “why then”; and after relative pronouns confirming the preceding thought: ὅς καί, “who also”; cf. Acts 1:11; 13:22.

    In dependence on classical usage where numbers are involved, καί occasionally crosses over into an alternating function: e.g., 2 Cor 13:1, “of two, even (= up to / or) three witnesses”; without numbers also in Matt 12:37; 20:23, etc. J. Jeremias, Unbekannte Jesusworte (31963) 55n.25, associates this function of καί with Semitic we = “respectively, or” (with examples).

    Διὸ καί means “therefore to a certain degree” (cf. Vincent). On use of καί with other particles → s.v.

     Horst Robert Balz and Gerhard Schneider, Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1990–), 227-228.

    Μὴ ταρασσέσθω ὑμῶν ἡ καρδία· πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε. (John 14:1 SBLGNT)

    Μὴ => adverb, negation, particle, negation

    ταρασσέσθω => verb, present, passive, imperative, third person, singular

    ὑμῶν => pronoun, personal, second person, genitive, plural

    ἡ => definite article, nominative, singular, feminine (usage agrees with καρδία noun => the heart)

    καρδία => noun, nominative, singular, feminine

    πιστεύετε => verb, present, active, indicative/imperative, second person, plural

    εἰς => preposition: to, toward (accusative case usage implies direction => into)

    τὸν => definite article, accusative, singular, masculine (usage agress with θεόν noun => The God)

    θεόν => noun, accusative, singular, masculine

    ἐμὲ => pronoun, personal, first person, genitive, accusative, singular

    καὶ => and, even, also (connection, adverbial) -- John 14:1 Logos Greek Morphology => adverb emphatic, particle emphatic

    Μὴ ταρασσέσθω ὑμῶν ἡ καρδία· => Not let be troubling of ye the heart (my literal translation)

    πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε. => be ye believing into The God, also into Me be ye believing (my literal translation)

    Olde English ye = you (plural). To me, "be ye believing" expresses present tense continuous action in present time. Also noticed πιστεύετε "be ye believing" appears like bookends around what to be believing εἰς into, toward (identifies object for "be ye believing").


    @Bill_Coley June 8 Where in the text itself (NOT in your personal faith beliefs) do you find support for your interpretation of the verse?

    Greek text simply has identical words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is the object of belief: The God also Jesus (me).



    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 7 What Scripture word(s) support your idea: "there is absolutely nothing in Jesus' command about "believe that I am God" or "believe in me as God".

    @Bill_Coley June 8 Why should we expect Jesus to say, "By the way, please don't interpret what I just said to mean that I think I'm God"? His words are clear, just as they are when he calls God "the one true God" (John 17.3), when he asks why someone would call him "good" when God is the only one who is "good" (Mark 10.18), and when, after the resurrection, he directs Mary to tell the disciples that he's about to ascend to his Father and God (John 20.17). There is no need for translation assistance in any of those instances or many others.

    John 17:3 has καὶ between "the only true God and Jesus Christ". Greek word καὶ range of meaning includes: and, even, also.

    Per Mark 10:17-22 context, what did a rich individual (someone) choose to do after => And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: Go, sell all that you have, and give the proceeds to the poor—and you will have treasure in heaven—and come, follow me.” What did that rich man really, really, really Love ❤️the most ? What insight did Jesus have about that person's heart when Jesus earlier asked him: "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. ...

    What changed in Mary when Jesus said her name in John 20:16 ? Suspect every cell in her body jumped after hearing Holy God presence in resurrected Jesus say her name (recently described in "Climbing into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford). Mary did not need any more words from Jesus to describe spiritually what was inside the resurrected body of Jesus. Humanly can easily imagine Mary wanting to hold Jesus as tightly as possible. Nothing in John 20:17 describes The Word (God) spirit inside Jesus, who ❤️ Loves The Father God.



    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,303

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If believe Jesus & The Father = One Yahweh God, then being a disciple of Jesus = being a disciple of Yahweh.

    If believe Jesus is NOT God, then being a disciple of Jesus means disobeying greatest command: something is not Loving God all the way.

    Believing that Jesus is God makes Jesus out to be his own Father (and, please don't come with your "different voices in one God" faith belief trying to 'explain' one error with the next error)

    Believing that Jesus is God is actually "not loving God all the way" in that it declares God to have been a liar in promising that a MAN (and not that GOD Himself) would be sent to be the Messiah.

    Greek text simply has identical words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is the object of belief: The God also Jesus (me).

    God and Jesus are TWO distinct and very different entities, beings, persons ... Jesus simply told the disciples to trust God (that He would do what He promised) and to trust Jesus (me) that he was doing and carrying out what God had designated for him to do => e.g. that he would be resurrected from the dead by God, etc.

    All your Greek expertise and examination of vocabulary and grammar details seem to mislead you in a manner similar to the person is standing at a tree and examines bark and leaves in great detail and completely looses sight of the tree and that it is part of a forest.

Sign In or Register to comment.