When Is a Baby, a Baby: At Conception or at Birth?

C McC Mc Posts: 3,625

Let's settle it once and for all. We have been dancing around it for a while, here in CD. Is the answer to the above question biblical or a social-societal issue? Whose business is it anyway?

God knows many things men don't. Can the Jeremiah text be used for all undeveloped tissues with in a woman?

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”  New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Je 1:5).

What say ye? CM

Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,562
    edited May 7

    What say ye? CM

    I suggest to understand words and statements and passages within their context.

    There may be some passages in OT Law in which situations of "fetus/unborn" are compared to same situations of "newborn/child" and where one could from that context see whether such situations are treated exactly the same or are treated differently. I would think that if they are treated the exactly the same, there would be no essential difference between the status of a fetus and a newborn baby; if they are treated differently, there would seem to be an essential difference in status between fetus and newborn baby, with the difference perhaps even stated in the context.

    Has someone here ever done a study on this matter, perhaps even found such possibly relevant passages in Scripture (OT or NT)?

  • LamechLamech Posts: 23

    God made man in His own image, forming him from the dust of the Earth, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and "Man became a living soul."

    And no human has come into life from any other system, except Jesus, the Messiah of God.

    THAT life has come down from Adam through generation to generation, till it produces the next generation.

    Fifty years from now, some will cry "I tried to see my Doctor, but he is overcome with patients; where are all the doctors?"

    Another will complain "I tried to make an appointment with an attorney, but none is available; where are all the attorneys?"

    Yet another will cry "I tried to enroll my child in school, but they had no teachers to teach her; where are all the teachers?

    Then my boss called me and said "Stay home today, I heard on the news we are going to be under attack from a foreign army." I asked "Where are all our defenders of our great nation?"

    Then a voice will respond from heaven.....

    "YOU ABORTED THEM."

    The question of "when does life begin in the process of human replication" is a very simple one; "it began in Eden's Garden, thousands of years ago, and has never been interrupted between that introduction, and our own introduction to the next generation."

    Beginning with the union of two gametes; i.e., One egg + 1 sperm; develops to a Zygote, then to a Blastocyst, to an Embryo, to a Fetus, and is finally born into an uncaring world.

    Life did not "BEGIN" at any step within the process; It began with the living egg and the living sperm of the parents, developed in accord with its nature as designed by GOD from its DNA, and every step in the process dealt only with living material and design.

    And no scientist can duplicate the process other than taking an already provided Human gamete and adding an already provided human gamete from the opposite gender, to begin an already determined process, to fruition.

    In the nineteen-sixties, the medical world produced the "Morning after pill," and Women went berserk; they shouted one to another, "MEN WANT ONLY ONE THING" and set about to provide that "THING;" and they then began to rely upon ABORTION as a Birth-Control device, because it was too much trouble to go to the drug store for "the PILL."

    We now rely upon prayer, to correct the glitch in the system,never once admitting to "baby-Murder." But God is warning us, now with a virus, sometimes with an insect, sometimes with an Army, Play-time is over.


    Then there is the problem of Homosexuality, rampant in our nation, and approved by some of the voters to run for President of this great GOD-FEARING nation. Do you see a certain hypocrisy developing here?

    But look out folks, It gets worse -  "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin." [Heb 12:4]

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,562

    @Lamech posted:

    God made man in His own image, forming him from the dust of the Earth, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and "Man became a living soul."

    Man became a living human being when "breath of life" (breath which provides life) was introduced into the situation / process of the making of man. The forming of man's body was not the step which made man a living human being. Only with the breath introduced by God's working did that lifeless human body become ea living soul.

    Life did not "BEGIN" at any step within the process; It began with the living egg and the living sperm of the parents, developed in accord with its nature as designed by GOD from its DNA, and every step in the process dealt only with living material and design.

    This statement is self-contradictory: The first sentence is in accordance with the truth from Genesis => "life did not begin at any time within the process" !! The next sentence flat out contradicts the first sentence and the truth from Genesis, because it claims that they very first steps in the process of the growing of the body is the beginning of the living human being.

    A further point to consider: Has a stillborn been a living being that was killed ?? Why is a stillborn considered "dead born" (in other languages, for example in German, it is even termed that way - "totgeboren"). In other words, the stillborn is not considered to have been a living human person who has died, but is dead born because of the fact that it never took a breath !

  • LamechLamech Posts: 23

    Wolfgang Posts: 2,519 12:24PM Flag

    @Lamech posted:

    God made man in His own image, forming him from the dust of the Earth, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and "Man became a living soul."[/quote]

    Wolfgang posted: Man became a living human being when "breath of life" (breath which provides life) was introduced into the situation / process of the making of man. The forming of man's body was not the step which made man a living human being. Only with the breath introduced by God's working did that lifeless human body become ea living soul.[/quote]

    @Lamech:That is precisely what I said. "Man became a living soul AFTER God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life."

    @Lamech posted:"Life did not "BEGIN" at any step within the process; It began with the living egg and the living sperm of the parents, developed in accord with its nature as designed by GOD from its DNA, and every step in the process dealt only with living material and design.

    Wolfgang posted:This statement is self-contradictory: The first sentence is in accordance with the truth from Genesis => "life did not begin at any time within the process" !! The next sentence flat out contradicts the first sentence and the truth from Genesis, because it claims that they very first steps in the process of the growing of the body is the beginning of the living human being.[/quote]

    @Lamech:The active word here is "Within." Forming the body is NOT "Within" the process, it begins all that follows; therefore, it is the first step of the process. There is also a last step, called "Birth." All else is "WITHIN" the process. Forming begins it, birthing ends it, Everything in between builds upon the pattern laid down by God's instruction to " Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

    Wolfgang posted:A further point to consider: Has a stillborn been a living being that was killed ?? Why is a stillborn considered "dead born" (in other languages, for example in German, it is even termed that way - "totgeboren"). In other words, the stillborn is not considered to have been a living human person who has died, but is dead born because of the fact that it never took a breath !

    Lamech: If it did not live, how did it attain size and shape prior to being "stillborn?"

    The people who develop words to suggest events, may be ignorant of many aspects of said events. Therefore, to suggest a "stillborn" is dead born because it never took a breath, overlooks the simplest fact, that almost all newborns never "took a breath" prior to being born.

    That first "breath of life" may be prior to the babe leaving the womb, but mostly it is the process of passing through the birth canal that "massages" the new-to-be-born to the extreme that the first breath becomes a reaction to the birthing activity itself. Either way, it does not change anything in my post.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,625

    At what stage does human life begin?

    1. Life Begins at Fertilization with the Embryo's Conception? "Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote." "Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
    2. Zygote. ... So, a zygote is formed from the union of two gametes, and is the first stage in a human organism's development. Zygotes are produced by fertilization between two haploid cells, the ovum and the sperm cells, which make a diploid cell. Diploid cells have copies of both parents' chromosomes and DNA.
    3. Zygotefertilized egg cell that results from the union of a female gamete (egg, or ovum) with a male gamete (sperm). In the embryonic development of humans and other animals, the zygote stage is brief and is followed by cleavage, when the single cell becomes subdivided into smaller cells.
    4. Zygote in unicellular whereas embryo is multicellular. 2. Zygote is termed as a zygocyte in medical terms while the embryo is termed as a diploid eukaryote. ... So zygote is the first stage in the development of a new organism while embryo is the stage that follows next.

    Stages of human development

    1. Zygotic stage: The zygote is formed when the male gamete (sperm) and female gamete (egg) fuse. Blastocyst stage: The single-celled zygote begins to divide into a solid ball of cells. Then, it becomes a hollow ball of cells called a blastocyst, attaching to the lining of the mother's uterus.
    2. In overview, fertilization can be described as the following steps:
    • Sperm Capacitation. ... 
    • Sperm-Zona Pellucida Binding. ... 
    • The Acrosome Reaction. ... 
    • Penetration of the Zona Pellucida. ... 
    • Sperm-Oocyte Binding. ... 
    • Egg Activation and the Cortical Reaction. ... 
    • The Zona Reaction. ... 
    • Post-fertilization Events.

    3. Pregnancy doesn't start the day you have sex — it can  up to six days after sex for the sperm and egg to join and  a fertilized egg. Then, it can  three to four days for the fertilized egg to completely implant itself in the lining of the uterus.

    • How old does a fetus have to be to be considered alive? Where is the baby? Isn't it's one that's outside, detached, and breathing on its on. CM


  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,562

    The people who develop words to suggest events, may be ignorant of many aspects of said events.

    Well, was it ignorance that caused the writer of Gen to state that what God had made and formed (a human body) only BECAME A LIVING SOUL when breath was given to it by God (that is, when breathing had occurred?

    Why does Scripture speak of "THE BREATH of life" but not of "the body of life"??

    Therefore, to suggest a "stillborn" is dead born because it never took a breath, overlooks the simplest fact, that almost all newborns never "took a breath" prior to being born.

    According to Gen, a LIVING SOUL (a living human being) is BREATHING ... no breath, no living human being. So, yes, all newborn BECOME living souls when they take their first breath.

    Now, just to clarify, I did not write Scripture .... I am just reading it.

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