Wine Usage in the Bible: Encouraged or Be avoided at all cost?

C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580
edited February 6 in Biblical Studies

What are some of the ways wine were used in the Bible? Was it a good or bad thing? How was wine made and used in Bible times? Is there any lesson on wine usage for today's Christian? In short, should some wines be used and others avoided? CM

Post edited by C_M_ on
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Comments

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174
    edited February 6

    Jesus turned water into wine. The fundamentalists turned it into grape juice.

    Post edited by Dave_L on
  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    Do not be drunk with wine. The Bible says nothing about not drinking it. Nothing wrong with it. But if you cannot control yourself you should abstain.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    Do not be drunk with wine. The Bible says nothing about not drinking it. Nothing wrong with it. But if you cannot control yourself you should abstain.

    Thanks, Dave T, Jr., for your response.

    Your statement is "so today" and on one seeking to start and continue to do so even in the face of impairing one relationship (family, God, and employment).

    What some many people don't know is what the Bible has to say about it. Like you many sincere Christians see nothing wrong with moderate drinking (wine with the meal or wine cooler for youth and children).

    It's unfortunate that many preachers or pastors don't see anything wrong with it. some has gone so far as to say, “Total abstinence is but one of a number of areas where the Bible gives no explicit directive”. For most preachers drinking is not an issue because they believe the Bible teaches moderation, not abstinence.

    In the 18th and 19th centuries most churches and influential preachers like John Wesley, boldly taught total abstinence as biblical, moral imperative. The Bible speaks about the use of wine and strong drinks.

    It's frightening to know even evangelical churches that were the strong advocate of total abstinence have gradually abandoned their position in favor of moderation. For example, Billy Graham stated: “I do not believe that the Bible teaches teetotalism . . . Jesus drank wine. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding feast. That wasn’t grape juice as some of them try to claim” (Miami Herald, Dec 26, 1976).

    The late Christian apologist and philosopher, Francis Schaeffer, signaled a warning that Christians have failed to see that the change in values is a symptom of a much larger problem, namely, "a fundamental change [that has occurred during this century] in the overall way people think and view the world and life as a whole. The shift has been away from a worldview that was at least vaguely Christian in people’s memory toward something completely different—toward a worldview based upon the idea that the final reality is an impersonal matter or energy shaped into its present form by impersonal chance. They have not seen that this worldview has taken the place of the one that had previously dominated Northern European culture, including the United States, which was at least Christian in memory."

    The above shows itself in reality that many pastors use certain Bible texts to justify moderate drinking of alcoholic beverages, even among Christians. Regardless, of the seemingly acceptable position, the Bible says otherwise.

    I don't want to sound like an extremist or to steal someone's daily evening pleasure of relaxation, the Bible does have something to say on the matter. For starters, consider my finding on this subject. I would be interested in your feedback:

    I. On the one hand, the Bible unreservedly disapproves of use of wine (Lev 10:8-11; Judges 13:3, 4; Prov 31:4, 5; 23:31; 20:1; Hab 2:5; Eph 5:18; 1 Tim 3:2, 3).

    • “Do not look at wine” Prov 23:31.
    • “Wine is treacherous” Hab 2:5.
    • “Drink no wine nor strong drink” Lev 10:9.

    II. On the other hand, wine is wholeheartedly approves of its use as a divine blessing for people to enjoy: -- (Gen 27:28; 49:10-12; Ps 104:14, 15; Is 55:1; Amos 9:13; John 2:10, 11).

    • “God gives wine to gladden the heart”(Ps 104:15).

    Let's be balanced in our counsel, living, and teachings. Until next time, clear eyes, joyous spirits. CM

    Source:
    Francis A. Schaeffer, The Complete Works, vol. 5: A Christian View of the West (Westchester, Illinois, 1982), p. 423.

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @C_M_ said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    Do not be drunk with wine. The Bible says nothing about not drinking it. Nothing wrong with it. But if you cannot control yourself you should abstain.

    Thanks, Dave T, Jr., for your response.

    Your statement is "so today" and on one seeking to start and continue to do so even in the face of impairing one relationship (family, God, and employment).

    What some many people don't know is what the Bible has to say about it. Like you many sincere Christians see nothing wrong with moderate drinking (wine with the meal or wine cooler for youth and children).

    It's unfortunate that many preachers or pastors don't see anything wrong with it. some has gone so far as to say, “Total abstinence is but one of a number of areas where the Bible gives no explicit directive”. For most preachers drinking is not an issue because they believe the Bible teaches moderation, not abstinence.

    In the 18th and 19th centuries most churches and influential preachers like John Wesley, boldly taught total abstinence as biblical, moral imperative. The Bible speaks about the use of wine and strong drinks.

    It's frightening to know even evangelical churches that were the strong advocate of total abstinence have gradually abandoned their position in favor of moderation. For example, Billy Graham stated: “I do not believe that the Bible teaches teetotalism . . . Jesus drank wine. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding feast. That wasn’t grape juice as some of them try to claim” (Miami Herald, Dec 26, 1976).

    The late Christian apologist and philosopher, Francis Schaeffer, signaled a warning that Christians have failed to see that the change in values is a symptom of a much larger problem, namely, "a fundamental change [that has occurred during this century] in the overall way people think and view the world and life as a whole. The shift has been away from a worldview that was at least vaguely Christian in people’s memory toward something completely different—toward a worldview based upon the idea that the final reality is an impersonal matter or energy shaped into its present form by impersonal chance. They have not seen that this worldview has taken the place of the one that had previously dominated Northern European culture, including the United States, which was at least Christian in memory."

    The above shows itself in reality that many pastors use certain Bible texts to justify moderate drinking of alcoholic beverages, even among Christians. Regardless, of the seemingly acceptable position, the Bible says otherwise.

    I don't want to sound like an extremist or to steal someone's daily evening pleasure of relaxation, the Bible does have something to say on the matter. For starters, consider my finding on this subject. I would be interested in your feedback:

    I. On the one hand, the Bible unreservedly disapproves of use of wine (Lev 10:8-11; Judges 13:3, 4; Prov 31:4, 5; 23:31; 20:1; Hab 2:5; Eph 5:18; 1 Tim 3:2, 3).

    • “Do not look at wine” Prov 23:31.
    • “Wine is treacherous” Hab 2:5.
    • “Drink no wine nor strong drink” Lev 10:9.

    II. On the other hand, wine is wholeheartedly approves of its use as a divine blessing for people to enjoy: -- (Gen 27:28; 49:10-12; Ps 104:14, 15; Is 55:1; Amos 9:13; John 2:10, 11).

    • “God gives wine to gladden the heart”(Ps 104:15).

    Let's be balanced in our counsel, living, and teachings. Until next time, clear eyes, joyous spirits. CM

    Source:
    Francis A. Schaeffer, The Complete Works, vol. 5: A Christian View of the West (Westchester, Illinois, 1982), p. 423.

    It is simple, really it is. The verses prohibiting wine are to a very select group of people. In the passages you gave it is directed to the levitical priests as part of the levitical cleanliness laws, not to the general population. In Judges, it was regarding the Nazarite vow. The Pauline passages say do not be drunk, they do not say do not drink.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,164

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    The verses prohibiting wine are to a very select group of people. In the passages you gave it is directed to the levitical priests as part of the levitical cleanliness laws, not to the general population. In Judges, it was regarding the Nazarite vow. The Pauline passages say do not be drunk, they do not say do not drink.

    I generally read the passages the way David does, C.M.

    To the relevant Scripture list I would add...

    • Numbers 18.12 - To the Aaronic priests God gives the best wine offered as gifts from the people. Hard to believe God would explicitly give them wine, but then command them never to drink it.
    • Numbers 28.14 - God tells Moses that wine is an acceptable Burnt Offering substitute for a bull.
    • Deuteronomy 7.13 - God will provide new wine for Israel after they enter the promised land.
    • Deuteronomy 14.23 - Wine is an acceptable part of a person's tithe.
    • Proverbs 3.9-10 - Vats bursting with wine are promised to those who honor God with their first fruits
    • 1 Timothy 5.23 - Wine recommended instead of water for Timothy's stomach and other conditions.

    There are many, many others, but I think those make the point: Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad. Drunkenness, abuse, addiction, of course, are VERY different stories. But consumption per se is not wrong.

    (For the record, I choose not to drink alcohol in any form, at any occasion.)

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @Bill_Coley said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    The verses prohibiting wine are to a very select group of people. In the passages you gave it is directed to the levitical priests as part of the levitical cleanliness laws, not to the general population. In Judges, it was regarding the Nazarite vow. The Pauline passages say do not be drunk, they do not say do not drink.

    I generally read the passages the way David does, C.M.

    Oh goodness! Bill, is the world ending?? ;)

    To the relevant Scripture list I would add...

    • Numbers 18.12 - To the Aaronic priests God gives the best wine offered as gifts from the people. Hard to believe God would explicitly give them wine, but then command them never to drink it.
    • Numbers 28.14 - God tells Moses that wine is an acceptable Burnt Offering substitute for a bull.
    • Deuteronomy 7.13 - God will provide new wine for Israel after they enter the promised land.
    • Deuteronomy 14.23 - Wine is an acceptable part of a person's tithe.
    • Proverbs 3.9-10 - Vats bursting with wine are promised to those who honor God with their first fruits
    • 1 Timothy 5.23 - Wine recommended instead of water for Timothy's stomach and other conditions.

    There are many, many others, but I think those make the point: Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad. Drunkenness, abuse, addiction, of course, are VERY different stories. But consumption per se is not wrong.

    (For the record, I choose not to drink alcohol in any form, at any occasion.)

    I also choose not to drink any as well, but am not opposed to it.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @Bill_Coley said:

    There are many, many others, but I think those make the point: Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad. Drunkenness, abuse, addiction, of course, are VERY different stories. But consumption per se is not wrong.

    (For the record, I choose not to drink alcohol in any form, at any occasion.)

    Do this includes communion? :D

    I also choose not to drink any as well, but am not opposed to it.

    Thanks a lot, Bill for sharing and for the personal self-disclosure. You're one clear-headed guy. I am sure you're not a Nazarite, but it's a wise practice and a good example for others to follow.

    Just wondering, if "Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad", what do you tell your children or young people when it comes to drinking? Do you say the same thing that the "government" says, who licenses, taxes and profits from alcohol usage? Would your counsel be the same for Christians? CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    I also choose not to drink any as well, but am not opposed to it.

    As a man of God (minister), the same question: If "Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad" [If this is your view], what do you tell your children or young people when it comes to drinking? Do you say the same thing that the "government" says, who licenses, taxes and profits from alcohol usage? Would your counsel be the same for Christians? CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,260
    edited February 10

    @C_M_ said:
    As a man of God (minister), the same question: If "Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad" [If this is your view], what do you tell your children or young people when it comes to drinking? Do you say the same thing that the "government" says, who licenses, taxes and profits from alcohol usage? Would your counsel be the same for Christians? CM

    Who is this "government" (in " ") and what does this "government" actually say? I may have missed something here since I live in a country other than the USA ?

    What I told my children was what I allowed for myself ... why be a hypocrite and tell them something different from what I practice ?

    Post edited by Wolfgang on
  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,164

    @Bill_Coley said:

    Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad. Drunkenness, abuse, addiction, of course, are VERY different stories. But consumption per se is not wrong.

    @C_M_ said:
    Just wondering, if "Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad", what do you tell your children or young people when it comes to drinking? Do you say the same thing that the "government" says, who licenses, taxes and profits from alcohol usage? Would your counsel be the same for Christians? CM

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the same thing the 'government' says" about alcohol. Might you say more? If what you mean is that governments benefit from alcohol taxation, no doubt you are right. I can't think of a way parents can given a taxation message to their kids.

    My message to kids about alcohol is that it is correctly and necessarily reserved for adults - at least those on the calendar who have reached adulthood - because there are lots of consequences that come from alcohol use that kids aren't ready to deal with. Once you are old enough, I tell them, then acting like an adult is really important - make that non-negotiable - if you're going to drink.

    My message to adult Christians is the same as to any other group of adults: Drink alcohol if you wish, but between you and the alcohol, you must ALWAYS be the one in complete, utter, and absolute control, an adage that has to do with consumption amounts, blood alcohol levels, drinking and driving, and a host of other things.

    Hope that helps.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174
    edited February 10

    I believe we should handle all that we consume as Paul says, not coming under the power of any 1 Corinthians 6:12. But people who condemn proper use of alcohol must follow through with eating disorders as well.

    Whiskey and aspirin is a highly effective pain reliever. (think Granny's rheumatiz medicine) And you do not need to become drunk to relieve the pain. Also it is safer than the opioids doctors promote. Beer has many of the minerals and vitamins we need. Many use red wine as an antioxidant....

    It's all about motive.

    Post edited by Dave_L on
  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @Bill_Coley said:

    @Bill_Coley said:

    Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad. Drunkenness, abuse, addiction, of course, are VERY different stories. But consumption per se is not wrong.

    @C_M_ said:
    Just wondering, if "Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad", what do you tell your children or young people when it comes to drinking? Do you say the same thing that the "government" says, who licenses, taxes and profits from alcohol usage? Would your counsel be the same for Christians? CM

    I'm not sure what you mean by "the same thing the 'government' says" about alcohol. Might you say more?

    USA 'government' says", "drink responsibly" or "be a designated driver." This counsel is hollow without principle standards. As a spiritual person, I thought your counsel to youth would be what the Bible teaches. Upon deeper study, God has a greater claim on what we do with, in and how we treat our bodies.

    In America, over 130 million people drink alcoholic beverages. Many of the drinkers are Christians who believe that moderate use of alcoholic beverages is sanctioned by the Bible. According to the 2002 report of the US National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, the consumption of alcoholic beverages in college campuses caused the following incidents: 1400 deaths, 5000 injuries, 60,000 assaults, 70,000 sexual assaults, 100,000 non-consented sex, 2.1 million arrests for driving under the influence.

    The use of alcoholic beverages has become America’s number-one public enemy, costing over $117 billion a year and claiming at least 100,000 American lives per year, 25 times as many as all illegal drugs combined. Christian churches bear considerable responsibility for the alcohol epidemic raging.

    What are people hearing from the pulpits? Mixed messages at best; at worse, for a youth to follow their undeveloped mind-conscience or listen to the gov't ads. When they have lost control; there is the church, counseling, and rehab. When you get through, we would let you come to church and give your testimony. This makes as much sense as putting an ambulance in a valley, below a precipice, over the decision of putting up a fence or guardrails, above on winding road, without shoulders. Would it makes more sense to prevent than to hope that one survives to be restored?

    A majority of the 130 million drinkers in America today are churchgoers who have been taught that the Bible sanctions a moderate use of alcoholic beverages. Moderate drinking has led over 18 million Americans to become immoderate drinkers because alcohol is a habit-forming narcotic weakening one’s capacity for self-control.

    This is a far cry from a century ago. Most churches actively promoted total abstinence through Temperance Societies. Several temperance societies were established such as the American Temperance Society in 1826, the American Temperance Union in 1836, the National Prohibition Party in 1869, the Women’s Christian Temperance Union in 1874, and the politically oriented Anti-Saloon League in 1893. The history of the temperance movement in America indicates that the cause of total abstinence. Various groups fervor were inspired by the conviction that Scripture teaches abstinence from intoxicating beverages rather than moderation in their use.

    The church can be a powerful force for good in a secular society when they make the principles of the Bible supreme and the final authority for Christian Living. History reveals that several evangelical churches achieved Prohibition by the passing of the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States on January 16, 1919. This Amendment outlawed the “manufacture, sale or transportation” of alcoholic beverages.

    Evil spirits working through men of influences managed the Repeal of Prohibition on Dec. 5, 1933, which led to a rise in the use of alcoholic beverages, resulting in a trail of sickness, poverty, crime, and death. By the adoption of the Twenty-first Amendment to the Constitution, today alcohol use in America has become endemic. According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, nearly 18 million adults in the U.S. are problem drinkers and of these more than 10 million are suffering from alcoholism. “Alcohol is a factor in nearly half of America’s murders, suicides, and accidental deaths. In all, it claims at least 100,000 lives per year, 25 times as many as all illegal drugs combined.”

    I hope I didn't say too much? Until next time, I hope preachers reconsider their counsel to youths. Lead aright. CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580
                          Alert!                  Alert!                Alert!
    

    http://www.newsweek.com/drinking-alcohol-tied-long-life-new-study-813013

    Don't believe this nonsense! Beware of who's behind this research. This is the voice the of the Devil emanating from cheap wine and fancy liquor in a bottle. The unreported truth on the matter above, in another study, is that One glass of alcohol can permanently damage brain cells. Sad!

    Oh, did you know, there was more than one type of wine in the Bible? All wines didn't make everyone drunk. An incorrect understanding of this has caused many Christians and preachers to teach that moderate drinking is alright. The pages of history and the Bible can bring soberness and clear eyes. "Relax" and "get high" off the truth of God's Word. Stay tuned. Truth found truth shared. CM

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,174

    @C_M_ said:
    Alert! Alert! Alert!

    http://www.newsweek.com/drinking-alcohol-tied-long-life-new-study-813013

    Don't believe this nonsense! Beware of who's behind this research. This is the voice the of the Devil emanating from cheap wine and fancy liquor in a bottle. The unreported truth on the matter above, in another study, is that One glass of alcohol can permanently damage brain cells. Sad!

    Oh, did you know, there was more than one type of wine in the Bible? All wines didn't make everyone drunk. An incorrect understanding of this has caused many Christians and preachers to teach that moderate drinking is alright. The pages of history and the Bible can bring soberness and clear eyes. "Relax" and "get high" off the truth of God's Word. Stay tuned. Truth found truth shared. CM

    I certainly do not condone getting drunk. But Jesus turned water into the best wine the wedding host had ever tasted. And he rolled it out after everyone was a bit loose and supposedly would not know the difference. But it is sin for you if you cannot sip wine with a clear conscience since whatever is not of faith is sin.

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @C_M_ said:
    Alert! Alert! Alert!

    http://www.newsweek.com/drinking-alcohol-tied-long-life-new-study-813013

    Don't believe this nonsense! Beware of who's behind this research. This is the voice the of the Devil emanating from cheap wine and fancy liquor in a bottle. The unreported truth on the matter above, in another study, is that One glass of alcohol can permanently damage brain cells. Sad!

    Oh, did you know, there was more than one type of wine in the Bible? All wines didn't make everyone drunk. An incorrect understanding of this has caused many Christians and preachers to teach that moderate drinking is alright. The pages of history and the Bible can bring soberness and clear eyes. "Relax" and "get high" off the truth of God's Word. Stay tuned. Truth found truth shared. CM

    Types of wine that did not get people drunk? I have a Biblical Theology degree and this is the first I have EVER heard of this. Please cite your sources.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Alert! Alert! Alert!

    Oh, did you know, there was more than one type of wine in the Bible? All wines didn't make everyone drunk. An incorrect understanding of this has caused many Christians and preachers to teach that moderate drinking is alright. The pages of history and the Bible can bring soberness and clear eyes. "Relax" and "get high" off the truth of God's Word. Stay tuned. Truth found truth shared. CM

    Types of wine that did not get people drunk?

    Stay tuned...

    I have a Biblical Theology degree and this is the first I have EVER heard of this. Please cite your sources.

    Wow! Am I to take this that you know everything? There is nothing new to learn? Have you all knowledge?

    Regardless, I was taught when one comes to the Bible for general reading or deep study, approach it with the possibility you can learn something new. CM

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @C_M_ said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Alert! Alert! Alert!

    Oh, did you know, there was more than one type of wine in the Bible? All wines didn't make everyone drunk. An incorrect understanding of this has caused many Christians and preachers to teach that moderate drinking is alright. The pages of history and the Bible can bring soberness and clear eyes. "Relax" and "get high" off the truth of God's Word. Stay tuned. Truth found truth shared. CM

    Types of wine that did not get people drunk?

    Stay tuned...

    I have a Biblical Theology degree and this is the first I have EVER heard of this. Please cite your sources.

    Wow! Am I to take this that you know everything? There is nothing new to learn? Have you all knowledge?

    Regardless, I was taught when one comes to the Bible for general reading or deep study, approach it with the possibility you can learn something new. CM

    Is that what I said? No. What I'm saying is I never have heard of your theory and considering wine is a big topic in the Bible that is pretty amazing.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    David,

    Here it is, "right under your nose." See my Feb 8th post (Bible Texts) above. Also, the texts you and others contributed. All wine comes under these two headings. God is good; or what? "The Bible is its own expositor."

    The two types of wines are:

    BAD WINE ------ GOOD WINE
    Fermented. ----- Unfermented.
    Contains alcohol ------ Contains no alcohol.
    Poisonous. ------ Wholesome.
    Intoxicating. ------ Unintoxicating.
    Produced by decay. ------ Produced by natural growth.
    A symbol of wrath. ------ A symbol of blessing.
    “Wine is a mocker.” ----- “Cheereth God and man.”
    “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red.” --- Use a little for thy stomach’s sake.”
    “Strong drink is raging.”------ “Maketh the heart Glad.”
    “Poison of dragons.” ---- “Maketh the heart Glad.”
    “Cruel venom of asps.” ----- “Maketh the heart Glad.”
    “Biteth like a serpent and stingeth like an adder.”---- “Maketh the heart Glad.”
    “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him.”--- ‘And he took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, Drink ye all of it.”

    Scripture Has a Negative Attitude toward Alcohol:
    • Negative examples:

    • Noah – --- Gen 9:20-27
    • Lot – --- Gen 19:30-38
    • Belshazzar --- Dan 5:1-6
    • The warning against the use of alcohol -- Prov 23:29-35 (cf. Judh 13:3-5; Luke.1:15)
    • Jesus and alcohol -- Matt 27:33-34, 48

    Research has shown that alcohol is harmful, even in small doses. Here are some of the potential physical damages that may happen:

    • Destruction of liver cells (e.g., fatty liver or cirrhosis).
    • Destruction of cells of the heart muscle (cardiac insufficiency and heart failure).
    • Destruction of brain cells, inflammation of the nerves (neuritis), etc.

    However, harmful effects are not limited to physical problems. There may also be mental-emotional damages such as a decline in memory, decline of productivity and performance, depressions, fear and disappointment with oneself, etc.

    So, you see, the term “wine” as used in Scripture juice does not always refer to fermented wine but can also mean grape juice. Stay tuned, other support from vocabulary and history. Ok? CM

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @C_M_ said:
    David,

    Here it is, "right under your nose." See my Feb 8th post (Bible Texts) above. Also, the texts you and others contributed. All wine comes under these two headings. God is good; or what? "The Bible is its own expositor."

    The two types of wines are:

    BAD WINE ------ GOOD WINE
    Fermented. ----- Unfermented.
    Contains alcohol ------ Contains no alcohol.
    Poisonous. ------ Wholesome.
    Intoxicating. ------ Unintoxicating.
    Produced by decay. ------ Produced by natural growth.
    A symbol of wrath. ------ A symbol of blessing.
    “Wine is a mocker.” ----- “Cheereth God and man.”
    “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red.” --- Use a little for thy stomach’s sake.”
    “Strong drink is raging.”------ “Maketh the heart Glad.”
    “Poison of dragons.” ---- “Maketh the heart Glad.”
    “Cruel venom of asps.” ----- “Maketh the heart Glad.”
    “Biteth like a serpent and stingeth like an adder.”---- “Maketh the heart Glad.”
    “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him.”--- ‘And he took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, Drink ye all of it.”

    Scripture Has a Negative Attitude toward Alcohol:
    • Negative examples:

    • Noah – --- Gen 9:20-27
    • Lot – --- Gen 19:30-38
    • Belshazzar --- Dan 5:1-6
    • The warning against the use of alcohol -- Prov 23:29-35 (cf. Judh 13:3-5; Luke.1:15)
    • Jesus and alcohol -- Matt 27:33-34, 48

    Research has shown that alcohol is harmful, even in small doses. Here are some of the potential physical damages that may happen:

    • Destruction of liver cells (e.g., fatty liver or cirrhosis).
    • Destruction of cells of the heart muscle (cardiac insufficiency and heart failure).
    • Destruction of brain cells, inflammation of the nerves (neuritis), etc.

    However, harmful effects are not limited to physical problems. There may also be mental-emotional damages such as a decline in memory, decline of productivity and performance, depressions, fear and disappointment with oneself, etc.

    So, you see, the term “wine” as used in Scripture juice does not always refer to fermented wine but can also mean grape juice. Stay tuned, other support from vocabulary and history. Ok? CM

    Show me the place where it actually makes that distinction.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,164

    @C_M_ said:
    Here it is, "right under your nose." See my Feb 8th post (Bible Texts) above. Also, the texts you and others contributed. All wine comes under these two headings. God is good; or what? "The Bible is its own expositor."

    The two types of wines are:

    BAD WINE ------ GOOD WINE
    Fermented. ----- Unfermented.....
    So, you see, the term “wine” as used in Scripture juice does not always refer to fermented wine but can also mean grape juice. Stay tuned, other support from vocabulary and history. Ok? CM

    Is there textual evidence that supports your claim that the word "wine" in the Bible sometimes refers to "grape juice" rather than "fermented wine"? My fast LOGOS search revealed only one Hebrew word for wine throughout the OT, and one Greek word for wine throughout the NT. If my search results are accurate, how does one discern which references refer to grape juice, and which do not?

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    Alcohol Causes 5% Of Deaths Worldwide, A New Study From The World Health Organization Found

    ByMIKA DOYLE

    New data from the World Health Organization (WHO) has revealed that alcohol causes 5 percent of deaths worldwide, The Guardian reports, and young people are the most widely affected. The WHO releases its global status report on alcohol and health every four years, says The Guardian, and the most recent data showed that young people experienced the highest rate of alcohol-related deaths. According to The Guardian, although alcohol was responsible for 7.2 percent of premature deaths overall, 13.5 percent of deaths among people in their 20s were linked to alcohol. Of all the alcohol-related deaths in 2016, 75 percent of them affected men, CNN reports.


    Excessive drinking killed over 3 million people in 2016

    GENEVA — Drinking too much alcohol killed more than 3 million people in 2016, mostly men, the World Health Organization said.

    The U.N. health agency also warned that current policy responses are not sufficient to reverse trends predicting an increase in consumption over the next 10 years.

    In a new report Friday, the agency said that about 237 million men and 46 million women faced alcohol problems, with the highest prevalence in Europe and the Americas. Europe has the highest global per capita alcohol consumption, even though it has already dropped by 10 percent since 2010.

    Around a third of alcohol-related deaths were a result of injuries, including car crashes and self-harm, while about one in five were due to either digestive disorders or cardiovascular diseases. Cancers, infectious diseases, mental disorders and other health conditions were also to blame.

    "Far too many people, their families and communities suffer the consequences of the harmful use of alcohol through violence, injuries, mental health problems and diseases like cancer and stroke," said Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the director-general of WHO. "It's time to step up action to prevent this serious threat to the development of healthy societies."


    Now, does the Bible total abstinence make sense? The government needs to get out of the business licensing hotels, grills, bars, etc. Pastors, parents, etc., need to advise (counsel) better when it comes to drinking with children and youth. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    Alcohol Causes 5% Of Deaths Worldwide, A New Study From The World Health Organization Found

    ByMIKA DOYLE

    New data from the World Health Organization (WHO) has revealed that alcohol causes 5 percent of deaths worldwide, The Guardian reports, and young people are the most widely affected. The WHO releases its global status report on alcohol and health every four years, says The Guardian, and the most recent data showed that young people experienced the highest rate of alcohol-related deaths. According to The Guardian, although alcohol was responsible for 7.2 percent of premature deaths overall, 13.5 percent of deaths among people in their 20s were linked to alcohol. Of all the alcohol-related deaths in 2016, 75 percent of them affected men, CNN reports.


    Excessive drinking killed over 3 million people in 2016

    GENEVA — Drinking too much alcohol killed more than 3 million people in 2016, mostly men, the World Health Organization said.

    The U.N. health agency also warned that current policy responses are not sufficient to reverse trends predicting an increase in consumption over the next 10 years.

    In a new report Friday, the agency said that about 237 million men and 46 million women faced alcohol problems, with the highest prevalence in Europe and the Americas. Europe has the highest global per capita alcohol consumption, even though it has already dropped by 10 percent since 2010.

    Around a third of alcohol-related deaths were a result of injuries, including car crashes and self-harm, while about one in five were due to either digestive disorders or cardiovascular diseases. Cancers, infectious diseases, mental disorders and other health conditions were also to blame.

    "Far too many people, their families and communities suffer the consequences of the harmful use of alcohol through violence, injuries, mental health problems and diseases like cancer and stroke," said Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the director-general of WHO. "It's time to step up action to prevent this serious threat to the development of healthy societies."


    Now, does the Bible total abstinence make sense? The government needs to get out of the business licensing hotels, grills, bars, etc. Pastors, parents, etc., need to advise (counsel) better when it comes to drinking with children and youth. CM

    There is no valid argument that the Bible speaks of total abstinence from alcohol. Jesus drank wine, Paul told Timothy to drink wine for the stomach. It merely says do not be drunk.

    To say anything more than that is to add to and change Scripture.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Now, does the Bible total abstinence make sense? The government needs to get out of the business licensing hotels, grills, bars, etc. Pastors, parents, etc., need to advise (counsel) better when it comes to drinking with children and youth. CM

    There is no valid argument that the Bible speaks of total abstinence from alcohol. Jesus drank wine, Paul told Timothy to drink wine for the stomach. It merely says do not be drunk.

    To say anything more than that is to add to and change Scripture.

    May I suggest you re-read the early posts in this thread. There is two type of wines in the Bible.

    @C_M_ said: All wine comes under these two headings. God is good; or what? "The Bible is its own expositor."

    The two types of wines are:

    BAD WINE ------ GOOD WINE

    Fermented ----- Unfermented

    So, you see, the term “wine” as used in Scripture, this juice does not always refer to fermented wine but can also mean grape juice...

    @reformed said: Paul told Timothy to drink wine for the stomach. It merely says do not be drunk.

    I assume you're referring to 1 Timothy 5:23, where wine is recommended instead of water for Timothy's stomach and other conditions. This is due to the possible contamination of water-borne diseases contrasted to the healing properties of wine = "fruit of the vine".

    The Bible is clear against the "fermented" drink for common use and if for any chance, the use of "fermented drink" for medicinal use ONLY (like a prescription).

    I find you don't seem to be appalled over the deaths attributed to alcohol excessive drinking killed over 3 million people in 2016 (5% Of Deaths Worldwide). All those who care about life (Pastors, Priests and Parents) must take note of these findings and council members and teens differently. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Now, does the Bible total abstinence make sense? The government needs to get out of the business licensing hotels, grills, bars, etc. Pastors, parents, etc., need to advise (counsel) better when it comes to drinking with children and youth. CM

    There is no valid argument that the Bible speaks of total abstinence from alcohol. Jesus drank wine, Paul told Timothy to drink wine for the stomach. It merely says do not be drunk.

    To say anything more than that is to add to and change Scripture.

    May I suggest you re-read the early posts in this thread. There is two type of wines in the Bible.

    @C_M_ said: All wine comes under these two headings. God is good; or what? "The Bible is its own expositor."

    The two types of wines are:

    BAD WINE ------ GOOD WINE

    Fermented ----- Unfermented

    So, you see, the term “wine” as used in Scripture, this juice does not always refer to fermented wine but can also mean grape juice...

    Based on what? Where are you getting this from?

    @reformed said: Paul told Timothy to drink wine for the stomach. It merely says do not be drunk.

    I assume you're referring to 1 Timothy 5:23, where wine is recommended instead of water for Timothy's stomach and other conditions. This is due to the possible contamination of water-borne diseases contrasted to the healing properties of wine = "fruit of the vine".

    Based on what?

    The Bible is clear against the "fermented" drink for common use and if for any chance, the use of "fermented drink" for medicinal use ONLY (like a prescription).

    Based on what?

    I find you don't seem to be appalled over the deaths attributed to alcohol excessive drinking killed over 3 million people in 2016 (5% Of Deaths Worldwide). All those who care about life (Pastors, Priests and Parents) must take note of these findings and council members and teens differently. CM

    I find it interesting that you are worried about the abuse of alcohol but not the murder of millions of babies. But that is beside the point, who said I am not appalled at the deaths of 3 million? I never said that. I merely said that you are using poor Biblical Interpratation skills and making the Bible say something it does not and then appeal to emotions to support your claim. That is not sound exegesis.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367
    edited September 25

    I don't come around much now and have ignored the trolls (the ignore feature works quite well), but did happen by and glanced here.

    To understand the worldview that produces the dualism you see above I HIGHLY recommend Nancy Pearceys book "Love Thy Body." A commonsense, intellectual analysis of the present thinking from a respected Christian (Anglican) philosopher's perspective:

    Post edited by GaoLu on
  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said: The Bible is clear against the "fermented" drink for common use and if for any chance, the use of "fermented drink" for medicinal use ONLY (like a prescription).

    Based on what?

    I find you don't seem to be appalled over the deaths attributed to alcohol excessive drinking killed over 3 million people in 2016 (5% Of Deaths Worldwide). All those who care about life (Pastors, Priests and Parents) must take note of these findings and council members and teens differently. CM

    I find it interesting that you are worried about the abuse of alcohol but not the murder of millions of babies. But that is beside the point, who said I am not appalled at the deaths of 3 million?

    It appears you have read the previous posts. You seem to be pregnant with a desire to have a discussion on abortion. Start a thread and give birth to your sentiments and positions.

    @reformed said: "... I merely said that you are using poor Biblical Interpratation skills and making the Bible say something it does not and then appeal to emotions to support your claim. That is not sound exegesis.

    Since this seems to be a mission or task when it comes to me. By all means, give expressions to your perceptions. Please, be specific about what you're referring and contrast it with what it should be! CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,983

    @C_M_ said:

    @reformed said:

    @C_M_ said: The Bible is clear against the "fermented" drink for common use and if for any chance, the use of "fermented drink" for medicinal use ONLY (like a prescription).

    Based on what?

    I find you don't seem to be appalled over the deaths attributed to alcohol excessive drinking killed over 3 million people in 2016 (5% Of Deaths Worldwide). All those who care about life (Pastors, Priests and Parents) must take note of these findings and council members and teens differently. CM

    I find it interesting that you are worried about the abuse of alcohol but not the murder of millions of babies. But that is beside the point, who said I am not appalled at the deaths of 3 million?

    It appears you have read the previous posts. You seem to be pregnant with a desire to have a discussion on abortion. Start a thread and give birth to your sentiments and positions.

    @reformed said: "... I merely said that you are using poor Biblical Interpratation skills and making the Bible say something it does not and then appeal to emotions to support your claim. That is not sound exegesis.

    Since this seems to be a mission or task when it comes to me. By all means, give expressions to your perceptions. Please, be specific about what you're referring and contrast it with what it should be! CM

    You ignored the substance of my post. What is your EVIDENCE for your interpretation? Namely, what evidence is there that wine is sometimes grape juice in the Bible? What is your evidence that the Bible says wine is for medicinal use only as the Wedding scenario would show otherwise. What is your evidence that Paul suggested wine because of water's contamination?

    You have given zero evidence of this.

  • dct112685dct112685 Posts: 1,110

    @GaoLu said:
    I don't come around much now and have ignored the trolls (the ignore feature works quite well), but did happen by and glanced here.

    To understand the worldview that produces the dualism you see above I HIGHLY recommend Nancy Pearceys book "Love Thy Body." A commonsense, intellectual analysis of the present thinking from a respected Christian (Anglican) philosopher's perspective:

    I may come back, but as you were my only ally around here if you are not participating maybe I should just stay away.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367
    edited September 26

    @dct112685 said:

    @GaoLu said:
    I don't come around much now and have ignored the trolls (the ignore feature works quite well), but did happen by and glanced here.

    To understand the worldview that produces the dualism you see above I HIGHLY recommend Nancy Pearceys book "Love Thy Body." A commonsense, intellectual analysis of the present thinking from a respected Christian (Anglican) philosopher's perspective:

    I may come back, but as you were my only ally around here if you are not participating maybe I should just stay away.

    I probably won't go away but I am hoping for engagement with people who have similar interests. I am enjoying other forums these days. Your own forum is a great place with a lot of positive potential!

    Post edited by GaoLu on
  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,580

    @dct112685 said: I may come back, but as you were my only ally around here if you are not participating maybe I should just stay away.

    Oh, come on David, you don't need to return with nonsense. Don't come back with an attitude with the division of subgrouping. We are a small group, as it is.

    Besides, you don't need anyone to hold your hands. You left on your own, return on your own. Be your own man and stand, especially if you plan to stand on the Word. A fresh start revives and keeps CD alive. CM

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